[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Mark Sapiro]

On 4/3/21 1:59 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> Note that in those cases where the provider sends examples of
> "problematic" mail from your server but redacts customer
> identification, there are ways to "fingerprint" the message which the
> providers usually don't touch.  Basically, add a header field with a
> hashed email address.  Of course this requires message-per-subscriber
> which may be costly, and won't do much good unless you see enough of
> these to make it worth doing this as a policy matter.
> 
> Since this involves patching Mailman anyway, you can add code so this
> only happens for specific problematic domains.  It's reported to be
> effective with AOL and (IIRC) Yahoo!

This is a feature in MM 2.1. From Defaults.py

> # If the following is set to a non-empty string, that string is the name of a
> # header that will be added to personalized and VERPed deliveries with value
> # equal to the base64 encoding of the recipient's email address.  This is
> # intended to enable identification of the recipient otherwise redacted from
> # "spam report" feedback loop messages.  For example, if
> # RCPT_BASE64_HEADER_NAME = 'X-Mailman-R-Data'
> # a header like
> # X-Mailman-R-Data: dXNlckBleGFtcGxlLmNvbQo=
> # will be added to messages sent to user@@example.com.
> RCPT_BASE64_HEADER_NAME = ''

This feature doesn't yet exist in Mailman 3.

FWIW, Yahoo/AOL are not currently redacting the recipient address, but
it may not be the address the message was sent to if intermediate
forwarding is involved. Also, Hotmail is not currently redacting the
recipient address. Personalizing deliveries and putting the recipient
address in the msg_footer seems to work well for non-digest messages.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Jon Baron writes:

 > I think what I have just said speaks to your question. If not, then I don't
 > understand your question.

It wasn't a question.  It was a statement that a technical solution
exists that might be useful to some site administrators in relatively
unusual circumstances.

 > Now for a rant on the subject of spam blocking.

[ agreed! ]

 > In sum, totally blocking "spam" from the recipient, on the basis of
 > some fallible algorithm that guesses what is spam, is outrageous.

And semi-popular with users while being cheap for providers, which was
my other point.  So, good luck doing anything about it. :-(

Let's put it this way: one of the few things my (ultimate) employer
has done right in terms of Internet security was banning in April 2014
the use of Yahoo! addresses for communication within all educational
institutions in Japan.  And I haven't seen any (internally) since. :-)
But it takes that level of power to do anything about sucky providers.

And ... uh, well ... they actually got it *wrong*: Yahoo! Japan
franchised the name and some of the software, but otherwise is
independent of international Yahoo!, and to this day

% host -t TXT _dmarc.yahoo.co.jp
_dmarc.yahoo.co.jp descriptive text "v=DMARC1; p=none; \  <= !
rua=mailto:ymail_dmarc_rep...@yahoo.co.jp;

This is the cockeyed Internet we have.  It's wishful thinking to think
otherwise.  Im theory, it *could* be *much* better, but it's not going
to "just happen".  We have to build it ourselves.  That's why we
(Mailman) are here.  Not that we're terribly important, or even all
that good at it, but https://gitlab.com/mailman is open for merge
requests if you can do a better job. :-)

By the way, that's a happy smiley, not a snarky smiley trying to imply
"quitcherbitchin and code" or anything like that.

Steve

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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Jon Baron]

Dear Stephen and Morris,

Regarding your first post, I do not see the kind of Digital Ocean problems
that you have. In the past, I have had other problems, mostly a botnet that
was trying to guess passwords for WordPress (nonexistent), for many
months.

Concerning your second email, below, this has become a real sore point for
me. However, I have no difficulty in identifying the recipients who are
blocked. (I use Fedora linux with sendmail. That may or may not matter.)
When a message from Mailman is blocked, I, as list owner, get a message
that begins this way:

# From: Mail Delivery Subsystem 
# To: jdm-society-boun...@sjdm.org
# Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details

I think this happens because I checked "yes" for all the boxes in the
Mailman configuration for "notifications" under "Bounce processing". (I
also checked "yes" for all notifications under "General options", but I
don't think that is relevant here.)

The "transcript" says where the block came from, sometimes why the message
was blocked (sometimes even with an address to complain to), and sometimes
who the intended recipient was. (The bad news is that many of the addresses
are not on my mailing list. They result from forwarding a listed address
somewhere else, and the "transcript" doesn't give me the listed address. In
a couple of particularly annoying cases I managed to track down the list
member through detective work.) But it always gives the customer's address
that is blocking the mail. Usually gmail will succeed in reaching that
address if I want to tell the list member what is going on.

Some of the "Returned mail" is the result of "host not found" or "account
does not exist", when, in fact, the host can be found or the recipient is
easily reached by gmail. This problem seems specific to my mail
system. Fortunately it is rare.

The other way I identify which users are blocked is that many of these are
go into the "mail queue" (/var/spool/mqueue). As root, I am able to see all
this with the "mailq" command, and each entry identifies the
recipient. These are supposed to be temporary. The mailing system
(sendmail) keeps trying to send these for 5 days. Most of them clear, but
some never seem to clear.

I think what I have just said speaks to your question. If not, then I don't
understand your question.

Now for a rant on the subject of spam blocking.

Many providers (including att.net) block what they guess is spam without
letting the recipient know what is happening. This includes posts to a
4000-member Mailman list concerning the academic field of judgments and
decisions. Sometimes the post itself has a "high probability of
spam". Sometimes our server is blocked because it sends too much "spam", or
because someone within one of our "ranges" of ipv6 addresses is sending
what they call spam, or even because our provider, Linode, has been known
to harbor spammers.  Block lists vary a lot in how responsive they are to
complaints. Most of them allow you to request removal, but that is not
permanent. The worst two are Spamhaus CSS and UCEPROTECT3. Fortunately,
nobody pays much attention to the latter. The documents for Spamhaus seem
to say that they are doing this to force customers, like me, to put
pressure on my provider, Linode, to prevent anyone from sending spam from
their domain. They say that this is possible because Microsoft does
it. (They seem to ignore the cost issue.)

Our server sees all the spam. (We use spamassassin to put it in a separate
file.) 99% of it is simply electronic junk mail. If you had to sort it by
hand, it would take a couple hundred msec to identify it and delete it,
just like postal junk mail. By contrast, robo calls on a land line or cell
phone are REALLY annoying. Thus, I do see why recipients cannot see the
spam and create their own white list. Email spam is trivial by comparison.
Gmail comes close to letting you decide what to call spam.

In sum, totally blocking "spam" from the recipient, on the basis of some
fallible algorithm that guesses what is spam, is outrageous.

Jon

On 04/03/21 17:59, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Morris Jones writes:
> 
>  > [AT are opaque about their standards and process, and don't
>  > provide any means to respond or unsubscribe their customers who
>  > don't want your mail.
> 
> This is the basic issue.  Email users generally put more pressure on
> providers about "spam" (including stuff they've signed up for but have
> lost interest) than they do for lost mail (which they often don't know
> about, to be sure).  Furthermore, with lost mail providers can easily
> point the finger elsewhere, which users tend to accept because moving
> providers is a massive PITA (unless the original one provides
> forwarding).  Not much Mailman or site admins can do about this,
> unfortunately.
> 
> Note that in those cases where the provider sends examples of
> "problematic" mail from your server but redacts customer
> identification, there are ways to "fingerprint" the message 

[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Morris Jones writes:

 > [AT are opaque about their standards and process, and don't
 > provide any means to respond or unsubscribe their customers who
 > don't want your mail.

This is the basic issue.  Email users generally put more pressure on
providers about "spam" (including stuff they've signed up for but have
lost interest) than they do for lost mail (which they often don't know
about, to be sure).  Furthermore, with lost mail providers can easily
point the finger elsewhere, which users tend to accept because moving
providers is a massive PITA (unless the original one provides
forwarding).  Not much Mailman or site admins can do about this,
unfortunately.

Note that in those cases where the provider sends examples of
"problematic" mail from your server but redacts customer
identification, there are ways to "fingerprint" the message which the
providers usually don't touch.  Basically, add a header field with a
hashed email address.  Of course this requires message-per-subscriber
which may be costly, and won't do much good unless you see enough of
these to make it worth doing this as a policy matter.

Since this involves patching Mailman anyway, you can add code so this
only happens for specific problematic domains.  It's reported to be
effective with AOL and (IIRC) Yahoo!

Steve



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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Carl Zwanzig writes:
 > On 3/30/2021 9:28 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
 > > I had two servers blocked by ATT, fortunately not this one. They were
 > > both DigitalOcean droplets,[...]
 > 
 > FWIW, a couple of my regular correspondents have said that DO generally does 
 > not have a great email reputation, and that they're moving lists to other 
 > platforms.

DO hosts a large domain (appears to be a hosting reseller; don't
recall offhand, if you want to know reply to me off list and I'll
summarize to the list) that regularly tries to exploit my nonexistent
O365 server and my also nonexistent DoH server, among others whose
exact targets I don't remember offhand.

I wrote the domain once, got nothing, nothing changed.  I've blocked a
couple of /20s and even a /16 and I haven't seen DO for a few weeks.  I
also wrote DO once, got a thank you note, nothing visibly changed.[1]
:-/

Steve

Footnotes: 
[1]  To be honest, I'd already blocked the source address, but the
only repeater I ever saw was my own employer's vuln scanner. :-þ What
a PITA, 9000+ accesses as quickly as they could connect.  During work
hours (gggh!) to boot.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[John Levine]

It appears that Mark Sapiro  said:
>> FWIW, a couple of my regular correspondents have said that DO generally
>> does not have a great email reputation, and that they're moving lists to
>> other platforms.
>
>That's probably correct, but are there other cloud VPS providers that
>are better at hosting MTAs?

DO really is bad, and I block most of their IP ranges, poking the
occasional hole for mail I really want.

There are better hosting providers. There are some that don't enable
outgoing mail unless you ask and some that do some sort of filtering
on outgoing port 25. I use tektonic.net which does the latter but the
filters are mild enough that outgoing STARTTLS works fine.

R's,
John

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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Robert Heller]

At Tue, 30 Mar 2021 14:14:57 -0700 Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> 
> On 3/30/21 1:50 PM, Robert Heller wrote:
> > At Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:41:47 -0700 Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> > 
> >> That's probably correct, but are there other cloud VPS providers that
> >> are better at hosting MTAs?
> > 
> > Almost certainly.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions/recommendations?

I have a cloud VPS at TekTonic (http://www.tektonic.net/index.html).

> 

-- 
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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 14:14 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 3/30/21 1:50 PM, Robert Heller wrote:
> > At Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:41:47 -0700 Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> > 
> > > That's probably correct, but are there other cloud VPS providers that
> > > are better at hosting MTAs?
> > 
> > Almost certainly.
> 
> Any suggestions/recommendations?

Vultr, RamNode, and HostUS are solid ones.

-Jim P. 


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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Christian Buser via Mailman-Users]

Hi Vince, 

I thought OVH’s spam volume would reduce after one of their data centers in 
Strassburg burnt down - but it didn’t? 

See, for example, 
. 

:-(

Christian 

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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Mark Sapiro]

On 3/30/21 1:50 PM, Robert Heller wrote:
> At Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:41:47 -0700 Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> 
>> That's probably correct, but are there other cloud VPS providers that
>> are better at hosting MTAs?
> 
> Almost certainly.


Any suggestions/recommendations?

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Robert Heller]

At Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:41:47 -0700 Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> 
> On 3/30/21 9:33 AM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> > On 3/30/2021 9:28 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >> I had two servers blocked by ATT, fortunately not this one. They were
> >> both DigitalOcean droplets,[...]
> > 
> > FWIW, a couple of my regular correspondents have said that DO generally
> > does not have a great email reputation, and that they're moving lists to
> > other platforms.
> 
> That's probably correct, but are there other cloud VPS providers that
> are better at hosting MTAs?

Almost certainly.

> 
> FWIW, mail.python.org which hosts hundreds of MM 2.1 and MM 3 lists
> including this one is a DO droplet. I do note that DO is currently
> listed at UCEPROTECT-Level3, but IMO, that's a racket. I.e. they list
> your hosts entire ASN ranges, but if your single IP is clean, they'll
> whitelist it for a price ranging from 25 CHF (about 26.50 USD) for 1
> month to 90 CHF (about 95.50 USD) for 2 years

*I* have seen a lot of "spam" coming from DO IPs.  Note this is "mostly" what 
might be called "E-Mail Marketing" and might be considered legit by some 
people, but I have been blocking /24 ranges of DO IPs.

> 

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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Vince Heuser]

Digital Ocean has a truly crappy reputation with us.  We now block by IP address (knowing 
the problems) because of lack of cooperation from DO. Same for OVH.  The email world would 
be better off without DO and OVH.





On 2021/03/30 11:33 AM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

On 3/30/2021 9:28 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I had two servers blocked by ATT, fortunately not this one. They were
both DigitalOcean droplets,[...]


FWIW, a couple of my regular correspondents have said that DO generally does not have a 
great email reputation, and that they're moving lists to other platforms.


z!
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   https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/



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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/30/21 1:41 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 3/30/21 9:33 AM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

On 3/30/2021 9:28 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I had two servers blocked by ATT, fortunately not this one. They were
both DigitalOcean droplets,[...]

FWIW, a couple of my regular correspondents have said that DO generally
does not have a great email reputation, and that they're moving lists to
other platforms.

That's probably correct, but are there other cloud VPS providers that
are better at hosting MTAs?

FWIW, mail.python.org which hosts hundreds of MM 2.1 and MM 3 lists
including this one is a DO droplet. I do note that DO is currently
listed at UCEPROTECT-Level3, but IMO, that's a racket. I.e. they list
your hosts entire ASN ranges, but if your single IP is clean, they'll
whitelist it for a price ranging from 25 CHF (about 26.50 USD) for 1
month to 90 CHF (about 95.50 USD) for 2 years


I don't believe what AT is doing has anything to do with DO or any 
other cloud platform. The IP addresses of my Mailman servers (both 2 & 
3) all have a IP reputation score of 97-99 with Senderscore.org and AT 
is still randomly blocks a server out of the blue. Linode is my cloud 
platform and they are also listed with UCEPROTECT-Level3 but no one uses 
that RBL to block email because what they are doing amounts to extortion.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Keith Seyffarth]

On 3/30/21 10:33 AM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

On 3/30/2021 9:28 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I had two servers blocked by ATT, fortunately not this one. They were
both DigitalOcean droplets,[...]


FWIW, a couple of my regular correspondents have said that DO generally 
does not have a great email reputation, and that they're moving lists to 
other platforms.


To back that up, a great deal of the spam hitting my servers that 
clients make me aware of is originating from DigitalOcean IPs.


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http://www.miscon.org/ - Montana's Longest Running Science Fiction 
Convention

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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Mark Sapiro]

On 3/30/21 9:33 AM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> On 3/30/2021 9:28 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> I had two servers blocked by ATT, fortunately not this one. They were
>> both DigitalOcean droplets,[...]
> 
> FWIW, a couple of my regular correspondents have said that DO generally
> does not have a great email reputation, and that they're moving lists to
> other platforms.

That's probably correct, but are there other cloud VPS providers that
are better at hosting MTAs?

FWIW, mail.python.org which hosts hundreds of MM 2.1 and MM 3 lists
including this one is a DO droplet. I do note that DO is currently
listed at UCEPROTECT-Level3, but IMO, that's a racket. I.e. they list
your hosts entire ASN ranges, but if your single IP is clean, they'll
whitelist it for a price ranging from 25 CHF (about 26.50 USD) for 1
month to 90 CHF (about 95.50 USD) for 2 years

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 3/30/2021 9:28 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I had two servers blocked by ATT, fortunately not this one. They were
both DigitalOcean droplets,[...]


FWIW, a couple of my regular correspondents have said that DO generally does 
not have a great email reputation, and that they're moving lists to other 
platforms.


z!
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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Morris Jones]

On 3/30/2021 8:40 AM, Jayson Smith wrote:


I know there was a thread on this a few weeks ago, but I deleted those 
messages. My server has found itself, for no apparent reason, on AT's 
RBL. I've already written to abuse_...@abuse-att.net as suggested in the 
error message. I assume the upshot of the earlier thread was that all I 
can do is wait, possibly write again, and hope the AT RBL removal gods 
smile down upon me, is that right?


Same for me last week, for no apparent reason. They use up the full 
48-hours they state before responding, but they did respond and delist 
my server.


They're opaque about their standards and process, and don't provide any 
means to respond or unsubscribe their customers who don't want your 
mail. I appreciate that from Verizon.


If I had to speculate, I would imagine them testing some new algorithms 
and processes, and discovering "false positives."


Best regards,
Mojo
--
Morris Jones, Monrovia, CA
BridgeMojo 
Old Town Sidewalk Astronomers 
Mojo's Blog 
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[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Mark Sapiro]

On 3/30/21 8:40 AM, Jayson Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> I know there was a thread on this a few weeks ago, but I deleted those
> messages.

This list has searchable archives at
. A
quick search for `att bounce` will find several posts in this (hijacked)
thread
.

> My server has found itself, for no apparent reason, on AT's
> RBL. I've already written to abuse_...@abuse-att.net as suggested in the
> error message. I assume the upshot of the earlier thread was that all I
> can do is wait, possibly write again, and hope the AT RBL removal gods
> smile down upon me, is that right?


I had two servers blocked by ATT, fortunately not this one. They were
both DigitalOcean droplets, one hosts my bicycle club's lists and the
other is my personal mail server. I didn't discover my personal mail
server was blocked until I tried to notify the affected bicycle club people.

Anyway, I wrote to abuse_...@abuse-att.net separately about each block,
and each time I wrote, I got the immediate autoresponse. For my personal
server, after 62 hours I got a second message that they were removing
the block and they did.

For the bicycle club's server, I wrote a total of 4 times over about 11
days before they finally removed the block. I had also suggested to the
affected users that they could contact ATT. Out of 33 users, 2 changed
to gmail addresses and 2 reported to me that they had contacted ATT, but
from what I could understand from their reports, the ATT people they
spoke with couldn't do anything and likely didn't even understand the issue.

The bottom line is you have no leverage. It's frustrating, but write
every 48 hours and wait.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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