Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Federico Santandrea]

On 07/08/2017 16:19, Stefano Bagnara wrote:

we're an italian ESP and we never had success contacting Alice.it
postmaster. Alice.it is the freemail domain of the biggest telecom
operator in italy (Telecom Italia, now named TIM).

We never had major deliverability issues (blocks/junking) there, but 
sometimes their server are very slow (don't know if it is throttling 
or simply overload) and queues get very big (last time was the past 
february and lasted a couple of weeks). We use a very very high 
timeout for them (20 minutes, instead of 2 minutes we use for

everyone else) because we experienced double deliveries due to
timeout on our side after the ending DATA "." (the very point the RFC
says the server should try to answer as fast as possible to avoid
double delivery).


I can confirm that one can't get an email answer from them.

About that timeout after DATA: we once had a telephone call with an
internal source from the same company, and we were told that they are
intentionally delaying messages from IP addresses whose PTR record's
organizational domain doesn't match the sending address' domain part.

What the "sending" address is (friendly from, envelope sender?) was
obscure, but given the delay happens after the DATA phase, it seems
likely that it is the one in the "From:" header (otherwise they could
just delay the messages before receiving them). This sounds like an
exotic measure for sure.

On the other hand, the delays tend to vary over time, so it's still
possible that they have nothing to do with this particular rule.

--
Federico

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Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Benjamin BILLON via mailop]

For abuse handling, the M3AAWG published at least these two guidelines:
-
https://www.m3aawg.org/sites/default/files/document/M3AAWG_Hosting_Abuse_BCPs-2015-03.pdf
-
https://www.m3aawg.org/sites/default/files/document/MAAWG_Abuse_Desk_Common_Practices.pdf

(and potentially this one
https://www.m3aawg.org/sites/default/files/document/MAAWG_Anti-Abuse_Product_Evaluation_BCP.pdf
)

However, postmaster@ is not about abuse. It has to exist, but if nothing
else is done then it's missing the point. While abuse _must_ be handled,
taking time and resources to handle the problems of senders who don't
manage to deliver emails is a far lower priority.

To stick back to the initial topic, we can expect ab...@alice.it to process
any abuse matter (spam, botnets, etc.), but not to take care of
deliverability issues.
We can then only hope that there's someone reading postmas...@alice.it.


-- 

Benjamin

2017-08-18 20:46 GMT+02:00 Aaron C. de Bruyn via mailop :

> > Are you serious? or simply joking?
>
> Serious.  No one is beholden to RFCs.  They are guidelines for
> interoperability.  I don't care if one postmaster@ address is staffed
> by a human response 24/7, or if another is staffed 8x5 and at other
> times auto-responds with "we'll investigate and get back to you during
> business hours".
>
> It's annoying if abuse@ goes to /dev/null, but no one controls my mail
> servers except me.  You control yours.  You can absolutely decide to
> reject my mail if I /dev/null abuse.  I've blacklisted a few domains
> due to lack of abuse and postmaster addresses--but usually they have a
> lot more problems than just failing to accept abuse mail.
>
> I use rfc-clueless to help score inbound messages on a few of my mail
> servers.
>
> > I keep repeating facts:
>
> Ok--so e-mail the rfc-clueless people and explain your point and how
> you think their listing service is behaving badly.  See what they say.
> It certainly sounds like an unintended block.
>
> > I didn't ask your permission to start my own list ;-) I simply stated
> > that I hope someone will start a dnsbl for people dev/nulling
> > postmaster and YOU said that rfc-clueless is a solution while it is
> > NOT an asnwer to my dream.
>
> I get that.  I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just
> suggesting that if you have a better way of doing it, do it.
> Hell--you might end up with a bunch of mail admins who feel the same
> way and start using your service.
>
> I'm in the path of the eclipse, so I'm going to retreat to my
> underground bunker now as everyone's starting to go crazy around here.
> ;)
>
> -A
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
> > On 18 August 2017 at 19:25, Aaron C. de Bruyn 
> wrote:
> >> As a postmaster or abuse contact, I'm not clicking on random links
> >> sent to me by robots to verify anything. ;)
> >>
> >> There's a difference between *rejecting* mail sent to an address and
> >> *accepting* it and routing it to /dev/null.
> >>
> >>> "Pretending that this is for the "RFC" good sounds like a joke"
> >>
> >> If I recall correctly, the RFC says you have to *accept* mail for
> >> those addresses--it doesn't specify what you are required to do with
> >> them, or how long it should take.
> >
> > Are you serious? or simply joking?
> >
> >> Should they block any address that doesn't respond in 15 minutes?
> >> Maybe an hour?  How about a week?  How often to you re-verify?  Is it
> >> a big company like Microsoft that might staff their abuse team 24/7,
> >> or is it a small outfit where they have an abuse contact but maybe you
> >> caught him or her during their week or two of vacation every year?
> >
> > They already have timings for most of they checks.
> > IMO they could even wait 1 month and then list you. If you succesfully
> > unlist then you get some more time the next time (like any blacklist
> > deal with removal).
> >
> > I keep repeating facts:
> > - postmaster@app.mydomain works and have a human dealing with it but
> > rfc-clueless list it because "mydomain" (not app.mydomain) have MX
> > records on google and those MX does not accept "postmaster" email
> > (with no domain specification). But my email is
> > postmaster@app.mydomain not postmaster@mydomain and the RFC clearly
> > doesn't mix MX for an host with MX for the domain of that host (and
> > BTW postmaster@mydomain works too).
> > - postmas...@alice.it instead is not listead while it /dev/null any
> email.
> >
> > This means that rfc-clueless does not answer to my "wish" unlike you
> > replied. I don't care to define if rfc-clueless is right or not doing
> > that, it simply doesn't do what I wished. I didn't mention
> > rfc-clueless until you said it was the answer to my wish.
> >
> > While I explained WHY it didn't answer to my wish I also explained WHY
> > I think it is not even giving "useful" informations (are you really
> > more happy when a domain HAVE postmaster@ devnulled instead of
> > rejecting postmaster? IMO it is worse

Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Brandon Long via mailop]

Pretty sure we accept mail to just postmaster:

220 mx.google.com ESMTP 1si76040pfp.214 - gsmtp
ehlo foo
250-mx.google.com at your service, [172.31.148.80]
250-SIZE 157286400
250-8BITMIME
250-STARTTLS
250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES
250-PIPELINING
250-CHUNKING
250 SMTPUTF8
mail from:
250 2.1.0 OK 1si76040pfp.214 - gsmtp
rcpt to:
250 2.1.5 OK 1si76040pfp.214 - gsmtp
data
354  Go ahead 1si76040pfp.214 - gsmtp
from: postmas...@fiction.net

testing.
.
250 2.0.0 OK 1503085081 1si76040pfp.214 - gsmtp
quit
221 2.0.0 closing connection 1si76040pfp.214 - gsmtp

the code has been there for as long as I can remember to handle that.

I feel that rfc clueless often mixes up certain failure types for other
failure types.

Ie, their listing for the gmail.com DSN is because they aren't sending a
valid message,
they aren't actually testing what they claim to test.

ELITIST is because we listen to the PBL?  So, it's a listing of operators
who use the PBL?

ABUSE because we block messages with a virus in them, even to the abuse
address (I have someone who
sends about 5 complaints/day to postmaster about the fact that all abuse@
gsuite addresses block messages
with actual malware in them)

POSTMASTER I don't even know why because it's apparently some other
postmaster@ address that broke
(some of our postmaster addresses were broken until I fixed them a couple
years back, but it has been years.)

Luckily, the usage of this rbls is really low.

Brandon

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:

> It is not difficult to detect addresses that never respond.. you send
> them a link to a page protected by captcha, if they don't clic or
> fails the captcha then the email is unsupervisioned. They do something
> similar to "unlist"..
>
> Please note that I wrote:
> > Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@
> > address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse
> > recipient ;-)
> And you answered that rfc-clueless was an already existing dnsbl for
> that: I gave them a try but they failed, so I posted the "result".
>
> The fact is that they list my "app.mailvox.it" domain because
> "mailvox.it" shares an MX with "Gmail"  (when postmaster@ both domains
> works and is read) and gmail does not accept email to "postmaster"
> (with no domain specification) but they don't list alice.it that is
> dev-nulling postmaster. Pretending that this is for the "RFC" good
> sounds like a joke, to me, but they host the list, so they have the
> right to write the rules (I can simply explain people why I suggest to
> not use that list).
>
> So I still hope someone will make a list for domains that dev/null
> email to postmaster@domain because rfc-clueless "POSTMASTER" list,
> unfortunately, doesn't do that.
>
> Stefano
>
>
> On 18 August 2017 at 17:53, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
> > Hmm...I've used rfc-clueless.org for years, and it's predecessor
> > rfc-ignorant for a long time before that and I've never had problems
> > with it.
> >
> > Does the postmaster@ address exist (i.e. accepts mail) or does it say
> > that postmaster@ doesn't exist?
> >
> > I think they only track domains that refuse to accept postmaster@,
> > abuse@, etc...not domains that accept it and never respond because
> > it's difficult to automatically detect addresses that never respond.
> >
> > -A
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 2:06 AM, Stefano Bagnara 
> wrote:
> >> On 7 August 2017 at 17:27, Aaron C. de Bruyn 
> wrote:
> >>> It exists: http://rfc-clueless.org/   :)
> >>
> >> I confirm it doesn't work: http://rfc-clueless.org/lookup/alice.it
> >> I submitted it to the postmaster last time I didn't get an answer...
> >> it shown as pending for a while and then disappeared.
> >> Still I have to find someone that ever received an answer after
> >> writing to their postmaster@ address.
> >>
> >> Stefano
> >>
> >> --
> >> Stefano Bagnara
> >> Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
> >> VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs
> >>
> >>>
> >>> -A
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:19 AM, Stefano Bagnara 
> wrote:
>  Hi Lindani,
> 
>  we're an italian ESP and we never had success contacting Alice.it
> postmaster.
>  Alice.it is the freemail domain of the biggest telecom operator in
>  italy (Telecom Italia, now named TIM).
> 
>  We never had major deliverability issues (blocks/junking) there, but
>  sometimes their server are very slow (don't know if it is throttling
>  or simply overload) and queues get very big (last time was the past
>  february and lasted a couple of weeks). We use a very very high
>  timeout for them (20 minutes, instead of 2 minutes we use for everyone
>  else) because we experienced double deliveries due to timeout on our
>  side after the ending DATA "." (the very point the RFC says the server
>  should try to answer as fast as possible to avoid double delivery).
> 
>  Once (a couple of years ago) I also tried contacting them because of a
>  bad vulnerability in their webmail 

Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Aaron C. de Bruyn via mailop]

> Are you serious? or simply joking?

Serious.  No one is beholden to RFCs.  They are guidelines for
interoperability.  I don't care if one postmaster@ address is staffed
by a human response 24/7, or if another is staffed 8x5 and at other
times auto-responds with "we'll investigate and get back to you during
business hours".

It's annoying if abuse@ goes to /dev/null, but no one controls my mail
servers except me.  You control yours.  You can absolutely decide to
reject my mail if I /dev/null abuse.  I've blacklisted a few domains
due to lack of abuse and postmaster addresses--but usually they have a
lot more problems than just failing to accept abuse mail.

I use rfc-clueless to help score inbound messages on a few of my mail servers.

> I keep repeating facts:

Ok--so e-mail the rfc-clueless people and explain your point and how
you think their listing service is behaving badly.  See what they say.
It certainly sounds like an unintended block.

> I didn't ask your permission to start my own list ;-) I simply stated
> that I hope someone will start a dnsbl for people dev/nulling
> postmaster and YOU said that rfc-clueless is a solution while it is
> NOT an asnwer to my dream.

I get that.  I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just
suggesting that if you have a better way of doing it, do it.
Hell--you might end up with a bunch of mail admins who feel the same
way and start using your service.

I'm in the path of the eclipse, so I'm going to retreat to my
underground bunker now as everyone's starting to go crazy around here.
;)

-A




On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
> On 18 August 2017 at 19:25, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
>> As a postmaster or abuse contact, I'm not clicking on random links
>> sent to me by robots to verify anything. ;)
>>
>> There's a difference between *rejecting* mail sent to an address and
>> *accepting* it and routing it to /dev/null.
>>
>>> "Pretending that this is for the "RFC" good sounds like a joke"
>>
>> If I recall correctly, the RFC says you have to *accept* mail for
>> those addresses--it doesn't specify what you are required to do with
>> them, or how long it should take.
>
> Are you serious? or simply joking?
>
>> Should they block any address that doesn't respond in 15 minutes?
>> Maybe an hour?  How about a week?  How often to you re-verify?  Is it
>> a big company like Microsoft that might staff their abuse team 24/7,
>> or is it a small outfit where they have an abuse contact but maybe you
>> caught him or her during their week or two of vacation every year?
>
> They already have timings for most of they checks.
> IMO they could even wait 1 month and then list you. If you succesfully
> unlist then you get some more time the next time (like any blacklist
> deal with removal).
>
> I keep repeating facts:
> - postmaster@app.mydomain works and have a human dealing with it but
> rfc-clueless list it because "mydomain" (not app.mydomain) have MX
> records on google and those MX does not accept "postmaster" email
> (with no domain specification). But my email is
> postmaster@app.mydomain not postmaster@mydomain and the RFC clearly
> doesn't mix MX for an host with MX for the domain of that host (and
> BTW postmaster@mydomain works too).
> - postmas...@alice.it instead is not listead while it /dev/null any email.
>
> This means that rfc-clueless does not answer to my "wish" unlike you
> replied. I don't care to define if rfc-clueless is right or not doing
> that, it simply doesn't do what I wished. I didn't mention
> rfc-clueless until you said it was the answer to my wish.
>
> While I explained WHY it didn't answer to my wish I also explained WHY
> I think it is not even giving "useful" informations (are you really
> more happy when a domain HAVE postmaster@ devnulled instead of
> rejecting postmaster? IMO it is worse because you keep waiting an
> answer).
>
> Also, AFAIK the message rfc-clueless send to test emails is not RFC
> compliant because it doesn't have an "header" and from my reading of
> the latest spec, even the obsolete MIME syntax now requires an header
> and an header include at least a ":" char and the rfc-clueless message
> (from their logs) does not include one.
>
>> Anyways, if you want to start your own blacklist based on sending out
>> validation links, feel free.
>
> I didn't ask your permission to start my own list ;-) I simply stated
> that I hope someone will start a dnsbl for people dev/nulling
> postmaster and YOU said that rfc-clueless is a solution while it is
> NOT an asnwer to my dream.
>
> enjoy the weekend,
> Stefano
>
>>
>> -A
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
>>> It is not difficult to detect addresses that never respond.. you send
>>> them a link to a page protected by captcha, if they don't clic or
>>> fails the captcha then the email is unsupervisioned. They do something
>>> similar to "unlist"..
>>>
>>> Please note that I wrote:
 Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /de

Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Stefano Bagnara]

On 18 August 2017 at 19:25, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
> As a postmaster or abuse contact, I'm not clicking on random links
> sent to me by robots to verify anything. ;)
>
> There's a difference between *rejecting* mail sent to an address and
> *accepting* it and routing it to /dev/null.
>
>> "Pretending that this is for the "RFC" good sounds like a joke"
>
> If I recall correctly, the RFC says you have to *accept* mail for
> those addresses--it doesn't specify what you are required to do with
> them, or how long it should take.

Are you serious? or simply joking?

> Should they block any address that doesn't respond in 15 minutes?
> Maybe an hour?  How about a week?  How often to you re-verify?  Is it
> a big company like Microsoft that might staff their abuse team 24/7,
> or is it a small outfit where they have an abuse contact but maybe you
> caught him or her during their week or two of vacation every year?

They already have timings for most of they checks.
IMO they could even wait 1 month and then list you. If you succesfully
unlist then you get some more time the next time (like any blacklist
deal with removal).

I keep repeating facts:
- postmaster@app.mydomain works and have a human dealing with it but
rfc-clueless list it because "mydomain" (not app.mydomain) have MX
records on google and those MX does not accept "postmaster" email
(with no domain specification). But my email is
postmaster@app.mydomain not postmaster@mydomain and the RFC clearly
doesn't mix MX for an host with MX for the domain of that host (and
BTW postmaster@mydomain works too).
- postmas...@alice.it instead is not listead while it /dev/null any email.

This means that rfc-clueless does not answer to my "wish" unlike you
replied. I don't care to define if rfc-clueless is right or not doing
that, it simply doesn't do what I wished. I didn't mention
rfc-clueless until you said it was the answer to my wish.

While I explained WHY it didn't answer to my wish I also explained WHY
I think it is not even giving "useful" informations (are you really
more happy when a domain HAVE postmaster@ devnulled instead of
rejecting postmaster? IMO it is worse because you keep waiting an
answer).

Also, AFAIK the message rfc-clueless send to test emails is not RFC
compliant because it doesn't have an "header" and from my reading of
the latest spec, even the obsolete MIME syntax now requires an header
and an header include at least a ":" char and the rfc-clueless message
(from their logs) does not include one.

> Anyways, if you want to start your own blacklist based on sending out
> validation links, feel free.

I didn't ask your permission to start my own list ;-) I simply stated
that I hope someone will start a dnsbl for people dev/nulling
postmaster and YOU said that rfc-clueless is a solution while it is
NOT an asnwer to my dream.

enjoy the weekend,
Stefano

>
> -A
>
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
>> It is not difficult to detect addresses that never respond.. you send
>> them a link to a page protected by captcha, if they don't clic or
>> fails the captcha then the email is unsupervisioned. They do something
>> similar to "unlist"..
>>
>> Please note that I wrote:
>>> Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@
>>> address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse
>>> recipient ;-)
>> And you answered that rfc-clueless was an already existing dnsbl for
>> that: I gave them a try but they failed, so I posted the "result".
>>
>> The fact is that they list my "app.mailvox.it" domain because
>> "mailvox.it" shares an MX with "Gmail"  (when postmaster@ both domains
>> works and is read) and gmail does not accept email to "postmaster"
>> (with no domain specification) but they don't list alice.it that is
>> dev-nulling postmaster. Pretending that this is for the "RFC" good
>> sounds like a joke, to me, but they host the list, so they have the
>> right to write the rules (I can simply explain people why I suggest to
>> not use that list).
>>
>> So I still hope someone will make a list for domains that dev/null
>> email to postmaster@domain because rfc-clueless "POSTMASTER" list,
>> unfortunately, doesn't do that.
>>
>> Stefano
>>
>>
>> On 18 August 2017 at 17:53, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
>>> Hmm...I've used rfc-clueless.org for years, and it's predecessor
>>> rfc-ignorant for a long time before that and I've never had problems
>>> with it.
>>>
>>> Does the postmaster@ address exist (i.e. accepts mail) or does it say
>>> that postmaster@ doesn't exist?
>>>
>>> I think they only track domains that refuse to accept postmaster@,
>>> abuse@, etc...not domains that accept it and never respond because
>>> it's difficult to automatically detect addresses that never respond.
>>>
>>> -A
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 2:06 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
 On 7 August 2017 at 17:27, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
> It exists: http://rfc-clueless.org/   :)

 I confirm it doesn't work: http

Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Aaron C. de Bruyn via mailop]

As a postmaster or abuse contact, I'm not clicking on random links
sent to me by robots to verify anything. ;)

There's a difference between *rejecting* mail sent to an address and
*accepting* it and routing it to /dev/null.

> "Pretending that this is for the "RFC" good sounds like a joke"

If I recall correctly, the RFC says you have to *accept* mail for
those addresses--it doesn't specify what you are required to do with
them, or how long it should take.

Should they block any address that doesn't respond in 15 minutes?
Maybe an hour?  How about a week?  How often to you re-verify?  Is it
a big company like Microsoft that might staff their abuse team 24/7,
or is it a small outfit where they have an abuse contact but maybe you
caught him or her during their week or two of vacation every year?

Anyways, if you want to start your own blacklist based on sending out
validation links, feel free.

-A

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
> It is not difficult to detect addresses that never respond.. you send
> them a link to a page protected by captcha, if they don't clic or
> fails the captcha then the email is unsupervisioned. They do something
> similar to "unlist"..
>
> Please note that I wrote:
>> Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@
>> address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse
>> recipient ;-)
> And you answered that rfc-clueless was an already existing dnsbl for
> that: I gave them a try but they failed, so I posted the "result".
>
> The fact is that they list my "app.mailvox.it" domain because
> "mailvox.it" shares an MX with "Gmail"  (when postmaster@ both domains
> works and is read) and gmail does not accept email to "postmaster"
> (with no domain specification) but they don't list alice.it that is
> dev-nulling postmaster. Pretending that this is for the "RFC" good
> sounds like a joke, to me, but they host the list, so they have the
> right to write the rules (I can simply explain people why I suggest to
> not use that list).
>
> So I still hope someone will make a list for domains that dev/null
> email to postmaster@domain because rfc-clueless "POSTMASTER" list,
> unfortunately, doesn't do that.
>
> Stefano
>
>
> On 18 August 2017 at 17:53, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
>> Hmm...I've used rfc-clueless.org for years, and it's predecessor
>> rfc-ignorant for a long time before that and I've never had problems
>> with it.
>>
>> Does the postmaster@ address exist (i.e. accepts mail) or does it say
>> that postmaster@ doesn't exist?
>>
>> I think they only track domains that refuse to accept postmaster@,
>> abuse@, etc...not domains that accept it and never respond because
>> it's difficult to automatically detect addresses that never respond.
>>
>> -A
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 2:06 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
>>> On 7 August 2017 at 17:27, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
 It exists: http://rfc-clueless.org/   :)
>>>
>>> I confirm it doesn't work: http://rfc-clueless.org/lookup/alice.it
>>> I submitted it to the postmaster last time I didn't get an answer...
>>> it shown as pending for a while and then disappeared.
>>> Still I have to find someone that ever received an answer after
>>> writing to their postmaster@ address.
>>>
>>> Stefano
>>>
>>> --
>>> Stefano Bagnara
>>> Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
>>> VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs
>>>

 -A

 On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:19 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
> Hi Lindani,
>
> we're an italian ESP and we never had success contacting Alice.it 
> postmaster.
> Alice.it is the freemail domain of the biggest telecom operator in
> italy (Telecom Italia, now named TIM).
>
> We never had major deliverability issues (blocks/junking) there, but
> sometimes their server are very slow (don't know if it is throttling
> or simply overload) and queues get very big (last time was the past
> february and lasted a couple of weeks). We use a very very high
> timeout for them (20 minutes, instead of 2 minutes we use for everyone
> else) because we experienced double deliveries due to timeout on our
> side after the ending DATA "." (the very point the RFC says the server
> should try to answer as fast as possible to avoid double delivery).
>
> Once (a couple of years ago) I also tried contacting them because of a
> bad vulnerability in their webmail but I received no answers to that
> too...
>
> I also have friends buying servers from Telecom Italia (so they are
> customers) and they also had no success getting in touch with a
> postmaster for alice.it .
>
> Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@
> address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse
> recipient ;-)
>
> You may want to try
> postmaster@(alice.it|aliceposta.it|tim.it|telecom.it|telecomitalia.com|retail.telecomitalia.it)
>
> With abuses you may want to try
> ab...@retai

Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Stefano Bagnara]

It is not difficult to detect addresses that never respond.. you send
them a link to a page protected by captcha, if they don't clic or
fails the captcha then the email is unsupervisioned. They do something
similar to "unlist"..

Please note that I wrote:
> Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@
> address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse
> recipient ;-)
And you answered that rfc-clueless was an already existing dnsbl for
that: I gave them a try but they failed, so I posted the "result".

The fact is that they list my "app.mailvox.it" domain because
"mailvox.it" shares an MX with "Gmail"  (when postmaster@ both domains
works and is read) and gmail does not accept email to "postmaster"
(with no domain specification) but they don't list alice.it that is
dev-nulling postmaster. Pretending that this is for the "RFC" good
sounds like a joke, to me, but they host the list, so they have the
right to write the rules (I can simply explain people why I suggest to
not use that list).

So I still hope someone will make a list for domains that dev/null
email to postmaster@domain because rfc-clueless "POSTMASTER" list,
unfortunately, doesn't do that.

Stefano


On 18 August 2017 at 17:53, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
> Hmm...I've used rfc-clueless.org for years, and it's predecessor
> rfc-ignorant for a long time before that and I've never had problems
> with it.
>
> Does the postmaster@ address exist (i.e. accepts mail) or does it say
> that postmaster@ doesn't exist?
>
> I think they only track domains that refuse to accept postmaster@,
> abuse@, etc...not domains that accept it and never respond because
> it's difficult to automatically detect addresses that never respond.
>
> -A
>
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 2:06 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
>> On 7 August 2017 at 17:27, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
>>> It exists: http://rfc-clueless.org/   :)
>>
>> I confirm it doesn't work: http://rfc-clueless.org/lookup/alice.it
>> I submitted it to the postmaster last time I didn't get an answer...
>> it shown as pending for a while and then disappeared.
>> Still I have to find someone that ever received an answer after
>> writing to their postmaster@ address.
>>
>> Stefano
>>
>> --
>> Stefano Bagnara
>> Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
>> VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs
>>
>>>
>>> -A
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:19 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
 Hi Lindani,

 we're an italian ESP and we never had success contacting Alice.it 
 postmaster.
 Alice.it is the freemail domain of the biggest telecom operator in
 italy (Telecom Italia, now named TIM).

 We never had major deliverability issues (blocks/junking) there, but
 sometimes their server are very slow (don't know if it is throttling
 or simply overload) and queues get very big (last time was the past
 february and lasted a couple of weeks). We use a very very high
 timeout for them (20 minutes, instead of 2 minutes we use for everyone
 else) because we experienced double deliveries due to timeout on our
 side after the ending DATA "." (the very point the RFC says the server
 should try to answer as fast as possible to avoid double delivery).

 Once (a couple of years ago) I also tried contacting them because of a
 bad vulnerability in their webmail but I received no answers to that
 too...

 I also have friends buying servers from Telecom Italia (so they are
 customers) and they also had no success getting in touch with a
 postmaster for alice.it .

 Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@
 address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse
 recipient ;-)

 You may want to try
 postmaster@(alice.it|aliceposta.it|tim.it|telecom.it|telecomitalia.com|retail.telecomitalia.it)

 With abuses you may want to try
 ab...@retail.telecomitalia.it
 ab...@telecomitalia.it

 and the only one that ever answered an email to us (a lot of years ago):
 staff...@telecomitalia.it

 Their only known interactive communication channel is twitter:
 @tim_official ... maybe you will have success tweeting them in
 "public".

 Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 Stefano

 --
 Stefano Bagnara
 Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
 VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs


 On 2 August 2017 at 16:10, Lindani Tshabangu via mailop
  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Anyone who can assist with a contact at Alice.it or point me to where I 
> can
> get one?
>
> Kind regards
>
> 
>
> Lindani Tshabangu
> Deliverability EMEA | GROUPON
>
> ltshaba...@groupon.com

 ___
 mailop mailing list
 mailop@mailop.org
 https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
>>
>> ___
>> mailop mai

Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Aaron C. de Bruyn via mailop]

Hmm...I've used rfc-clueless.org for years, and it's predecessor
rfc-ignorant for a long time before that and I've never had problems
with it.

Does the postmaster@ address exist (i.e. accepts mail) or does it say
that postmaster@ doesn't exist?

I think they only track domains that refuse to accept postmaster@,
abuse@, etc...not domains that accept it and never respond because
it's difficult to automatically detect addresses that never respond.

-A

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 2:06 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
> On 7 August 2017 at 17:27, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
>> It exists: http://rfc-clueless.org/   :)
>
> I confirm it doesn't work: http://rfc-clueless.org/lookup/alice.it
> I submitted it to the postmaster last time I didn't get an answer...
> it shown as pending for a while and then disappeared.
> Still I have to find someone that ever received an answer after
> writing to their postmaster@ address.
>
> Stefano
>
> --
> Stefano Bagnara
> Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
> VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs
>
>>
>> -A
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:19 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
>>> Hi Lindani,
>>>
>>> we're an italian ESP and we never had success contacting Alice.it 
>>> postmaster.
>>> Alice.it is the freemail domain of the biggest telecom operator in
>>> italy (Telecom Italia, now named TIM).
>>>
>>> We never had major deliverability issues (blocks/junking) there, but
>>> sometimes their server are very slow (don't know if it is throttling
>>> or simply overload) and queues get very big (last time was the past
>>> february and lasted a couple of weeks). We use a very very high
>>> timeout for them (20 minutes, instead of 2 minutes we use for everyone
>>> else) because we experienced double deliveries due to timeout on our
>>> side after the ending DATA "." (the very point the RFC says the server
>>> should try to answer as fast as possible to avoid double delivery).
>>>
>>> Once (a couple of years ago) I also tried contacting them because of a
>>> bad vulnerability in their webmail but I received no answers to that
>>> too...
>>>
>>> I also have friends buying servers from Telecom Italia (so they are
>>> customers) and they also had no success getting in touch with a
>>> postmaster for alice.it .
>>>
>>> Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@
>>> address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse
>>> recipient ;-)
>>>
>>> You may want to try
>>> postmaster@(alice.it|aliceposta.it|tim.it|telecom.it|telecomitalia.com|retail.telecomitalia.it)
>>>
>>> With abuses you may want to try
>>> ab...@retail.telecomitalia.it
>>> ab...@telecomitalia.it
>>>
>>> and the only one that ever answered an email to us (a lot of years ago):
>>> staff...@telecomitalia.it
>>>
>>> Their only known interactive communication channel is twitter:
>>> @tim_official ... maybe you will have success tweeting them in
>>> "public".
>>>
>>> Good luck and let us know how it goes.
>>>
>>> Stefano
>>>
>>> --
>>> Stefano Bagnara
>>> Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
>>> VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2 August 2017 at 16:10, Lindani Tshabangu via mailop
>>>  wrote:
 Hello,

 Anyone who can assist with a contact at Alice.it or point me to where I can
 get one?

 Kind regards

 

 Lindani Tshabangu
 Deliverability EMEA | GROUPON

 ltshaba...@groupon.com
>>>
>>> ___
>>> mailop mailing list
>>> mailop@mailop.org
>>> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
>
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> mailop@mailop.org
> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

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Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Stefano Bagnara]

On 7 August 2017 at 17:27, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
> It exists: http://rfc-clueless.org/   :)

I confirm it doesn't work: http://rfc-clueless.org/lookup/alice.it
I submitted it to the postmaster last time I didn't get an answer...
it shown as pending for a while and then disappeared.
Still I have to find someone that ever received an answer after
writing to their postmaster@ address.

Stefano

--
Stefano Bagnara
Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs

>
> -A
>
> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:19 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
>> Hi Lindani,
>>
>> we're an italian ESP and we never had success contacting Alice.it postmaster.
>> Alice.it is the freemail domain of the biggest telecom operator in
>> italy (Telecom Italia, now named TIM).
>>
>> We never had major deliverability issues (blocks/junking) there, but
>> sometimes their server are very slow (don't know if it is throttling
>> or simply overload) and queues get very big (last time was the past
>> february and lasted a couple of weeks). We use a very very high
>> timeout for them (20 minutes, instead of 2 minutes we use for everyone
>> else) because we experienced double deliveries due to timeout on our
>> side after the ending DATA "." (the very point the RFC says the server
>> should try to answer as fast as possible to avoid double delivery).
>>
>> Once (a couple of years ago) I also tried contacting them because of a
>> bad vulnerability in their webmail but I received no answers to that
>> too...
>>
>> I also have friends buying servers from Telecom Italia (so they are
>> customers) and they also had no success getting in touch with a
>> postmaster for alice.it .
>>
>> Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@
>> address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse
>> recipient ;-)
>>
>> You may want to try
>> postmaster@(alice.it|aliceposta.it|tim.it|telecom.it|telecomitalia.com|retail.telecomitalia.it)
>>
>> With abuses you may want to try
>> ab...@retail.telecomitalia.it
>> ab...@telecomitalia.it
>>
>> and the only one that ever answered an email to us (a lot of years ago):
>> staff...@telecomitalia.it
>>
>> Their only known interactive communication channel is twitter:
>> @tim_official ... maybe you will have success tweeting them in
>> "public".
>>
>> Good luck and let us know how it goes.
>>
>> Stefano
>>
>> --
>> Stefano Bagnara
>> Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
>> VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs
>>
>>
>> On 2 August 2017 at 16:10, Lindani Tshabangu via mailop
>>  wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Anyone who can assist with a contact at Alice.it or point me to where I can
>>> get one?
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Lindani Tshabangu
>>> Deliverability EMEA | GROUPON
>>>
>>> ltshaba...@groupon.com
>>
>> ___
>> mailop mailing list
>> mailop@mailop.org
>> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

___
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Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Stefano Bagnara]

I guess no one cares anymore of rfc-clueless since every GSuite domain
is listed there with no strong reason.

E.g: http://rfc-clueless.org/lookup/mx1.mailvox.it "mx1.mailvox.it is
INDIRECTLY listed in an RFC2 list."

"Domain shares an MX record (alt1.aspmx.l.google.com) for a mail
exchange which is known to not handle null-addresses."

And please note that "mx1.mailvox.it" domain doesn't have that MX, it
is "mailvox.it" to have an MX on Gsuite.

postmaster@mydomains works fine for all of my domains hosted on Gsuite too...

Either Google is right or rfc-clueless is right is not important at
all: Google is much bigger and no one will really use rfc-clueless
list if this means loosing email coming from every google customer.

If a domain answer to postmaster@domain emails it should not be listed
there. Instead my Gsuite domains are there.. so IMHO rfc-clueless is
not doing the right thing.

Also interesting.. I looked up http://rfc-clueless.org/lookup/alice.it
when you wrote and it was listed in the "ABUSE". I then asked to add
the POSTMASTER too. Now every query I do (to every domain, even
gmail.com or my mx1.mailvox.it says "is NOT listed in any RFC2
list."... i guess the website is experiencing some issue right now.

Stefano

On 7 August 2017 at 17:27, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
> It exists: http://rfc-clueless.org/   :)
>
> -A
>
> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:19 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
>> Hi Lindani,
>>
>> we're an italian ESP and we never had success contacting Alice.it postmaster.
>> Alice.it is the freemail domain of the biggest telecom operator in
>> italy (Telecom Italia, now named TIM).
>>
>> We never had major deliverability issues (blocks/junking) there, but
>> sometimes their server are very slow (don't know if it is throttling
>> or simply overload) and queues get very big (last time was the past
>> february and lasted a couple of weeks). We use a very very high
>> timeout for them (20 minutes, instead of 2 minutes we use for everyone
>> else) because we experienced double deliveries due to timeout on our
>> side after the ending DATA "." (the very point the RFC says the server
>> should try to answer as fast as possible to avoid double delivery).
>>
>> Once (a couple of years ago) I also tried contacting them because of a
>> bad vulnerability in their webmail but I received no answers to that
>> too...
>>
>> I also have friends buying servers from Telecom Italia (so they are
>> customers) and they also had no success getting in touch with a
>> postmaster for alice.it .
>>
>> Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@
>> address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse
>> recipient ;-)
>>
>> You may want to try
>> postmaster@(alice.it|aliceposta.it|tim.it|telecom.it|telecomitalia.com|retail.telecomitalia.it)
>>
>> With abuses you may want to try
>> ab...@retail.telecomitalia.it
>> ab...@telecomitalia.it
>>
>> and the only one that ever answered an email to us (a lot of years ago):
>> staff...@telecomitalia.it
>>
>> Their only known interactive communication channel is twitter:
>> @tim_official ... maybe you will have success tweeting them in
>> "public".
>>
>> Good luck and let us know how it goes.
>>
>> Stefano
>>
>> --
>> Stefano Bagnara
>> Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
>> VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs
>>
>>
>> On 2 August 2017 at 16:10, Lindani Tshabangu via mailop
>>  wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Anyone who can assist with a contact at Alice.it or point me to where I can
>>> get one?
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Lindani Tshabangu
>>> Deliverability EMEA | GROUPON
>>>
>>> ltshaba...@groupon.com
>>
>> ___
>> mailop mailing list
>> mailop@mailop.org
>> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

___
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Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Aaron C. de Bruyn via mailop]

It exists: http://rfc-clueless.org/   :)

-A

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:19 AM, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
> Hi Lindani,
>
> we're an italian ESP and we never had success contacting Alice.it postmaster.
> Alice.it is the freemail domain of the biggest telecom operator in
> italy (Telecom Italia, now named TIM).
>
> We never had major deliverability issues (blocks/junking) there, but
> sometimes their server are very slow (don't know if it is throttling
> or simply overload) and queues get very big (last time was the past
> february and lasted a couple of weeks). We use a very very high
> timeout for them (20 minutes, instead of 2 minutes we use for everyone
> else) because we experienced double deliveries due to timeout on our
> side after the ending DATA "." (the very point the RFC says the server
> should try to answer as fast as possible to avoid double delivery).
>
> Once (a couple of years ago) I also tried contacting them because of a
> bad vulnerability in their webmail but I received no answers to that
> too...
>
> I also have friends buying servers from Telecom Italia (so they are
> customers) and they also had no success getting in touch with a
> postmaster for alice.it .
>
> Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@
> address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse
> recipient ;-)
>
> You may want to try
> postmaster@(alice.it|aliceposta.it|tim.it|telecom.it|telecomitalia.com|retail.telecomitalia.it)
>
> With abuses you may want to try
> ab...@retail.telecomitalia.it
> ab...@telecomitalia.it
>
> and the only one that ever answered an email to us (a lot of years ago):
> staff...@telecomitalia.it
>
> Their only known interactive communication channel is twitter:
> @tim_official ... maybe you will have success tweeting them in
> "public".
>
> Good luck and let us know how it goes.
>
> Stefano
>
> --
> Stefano Bagnara
> Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
> VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs
>
>
> On 2 August 2017 at 16:10, Lindani Tshabangu via mailop
>  wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Anyone who can assist with a contact at Alice.it or point me to where I can
>> get one?
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> 
>>
>> Lindani Tshabangu
>> Deliverability EMEA | GROUPON
>>
>> ltshaba...@groupon.com
>
> ___
> mailop mailing list
> mailop@mailop.org
> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

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Re: [mailop] Alice.it contact

[Stefano Bagnara]

Hi Lindani,

we're an italian ESP and we never had success contacting Alice.it postmaster.
Alice.it is the freemail domain of the biggest telecom operator in
italy (Telecom Italia, now named TIM).

We never had major deliverability issues (blocks/junking) there, but
sometimes their server are very slow (don't know if it is throttling
or simply overload) and queues get very big (last time was the past
february and lasted a couple of weeks). We use a very very high
timeout for them (20 minutes, instead of 2 minutes we use for everyone
else) because we experienced double deliveries due to timeout on our
side after the ending DATA "." (the very point the RFC says the server
should try to answer as fast as possible to avoid double delivery).

Once (a couple of years ago) I also tried contacting them because of a
bad vulnerability in their webmail but I received no answers to that
too...

I also have friends buying servers from Telecom Italia (so they are
customers) and they also had no success getting in touch with a
postmaster for alice.it .

Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@
address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse
recipient ;-)

You may want to try
postmaster@(alice.it|aliceposta.it|tim.it|telecom.it|telecomitalia.com|retail.telecomitalia.it)

With abuses you may want to try
ab...@retail.telecomitalia.it
ab...@telecomitalia.it

and the only one that ever answered an email to us (a lot of years ago):
staff...@telecomitalia.it

Their only known interactive communication channel is twitter:
@tim_official ... maybe you will have success tweeting them in
"public".

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Stefano

--
Stefano Bagnara
Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs


On 2 August 2017 at 16:10, Lindani Tshabangu via mailop
 wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Anyone who can assist with a contact at Alice.it or point me to where I can
> get one?
>
> Kind regards
>
> 
>
> Lindani Tshabangu
> Deliverability EMEA | GROUPON
>
> ltshaba...@groupon.com

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