[Marxism] Open Letter to German Left Party (Die Linke)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > > > The decision to send this letter was taken following repeated reports of > your party's actions on the situation in Israel/Palestine. The participation > of senior members of your party in a January 2009 demonstration in Berlin in > support of the Israeli bombardment of the Gaza Strip, the existence and > acceptance of a political working group within your party (Bundesarbeitkreis > [BAK] Shalom) that clearly supports Israel's various military actions and > disseminates militaristic and nationalistic propaganda, and the silence of a > majority of senior party officials concerning the Israeli occupation policy > clarified for us, amongst other things, the need for clear intervention on > our part. . . . The state of Israel should not be rewarded for its > occupation, its racist separation, and its war crimes. Only international > policy which makes clear to Israel that violations of international law are > not tolerated will succeed in promoting a just peace for all residents of > this land. Several concrete demands that your party could promote include: * > Cessation of all German arms exports to Israel. . . . * Blocking of the > upgrade in trade relations between the European Union and Israel. . . . * > Total prohibition of the import of Israeli goods made in part or whole in > the occupied Palestinian territory (including East Jerusalem) to the EU. . . > . * Support for trials of those who committed war crimes in Israel/Palestine > and implementation of the recommendations in the Goldstone Report. * Support > for civil society organizations and activists in Israel/Palestine, > particularly for leaders of the popular and non-violent struggle against the > Wall and settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory. > > full - > http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2010/left100410.html > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] The Race Is On: Muslims and Arabs in the American Imagination
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Arab and Muslim Americans, long "invisible" threads in the tapestry of the > United States, have entered the national imagination in full force after the > September 11, 2001 attacks. But they are not thought of as another ethnic > group with charming habits and rituals that lend color to the "white-bread" > national culture. Rather, like African-Americans have been, Arabs and > Muslims are racialized -- conceived of as an element that makes the American > mix combustible. At the same time, the pervasive sense that "Arabs are the > new blacks" has enhanced the figure of the African-American as a symbol of > US global leadership. And no, it is not just Obama. > > Moustafa Bayoumi elaborates in his kaleidoscopic essay, "The Race Is On: > Muslims and Arabs in the American Imagination," now in Middle East Report > Online: > http://www.merip.org/mero/interventions/bayoumi_interv.html > . > Middle East Report Online is a free service of the Middle East Research > and Information Project (MERIP). > > . > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The idea of seriously arguing whether or not, at some point in the future, nuclear power might be safe and helpful just makes my jaw drop. Have we nothing more concrete in front of us? Better issues over which we should be arguing? At least during the last election, the political purism was at least based on something material. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == ...and not that cdes asked, but neither does the SP USA share the enthusiam: "The Socialist Party stands for municipal ownership and control of energy plants, in a non-profit and decentralized, but coordinated, system that ensures the most careful use of natural resources. 1. We call for the development of alternative energy sources including solar, geothermal, wind, hydropower, and biomass to end dependence on fossil fuels. 2. We call for a sliding-scale index which favors low-income people, to ensure that all people have access to utility services. 3. We call for mandatory vitrification (encapsulation) of all spent nuclear fuel, control rods and other waste. 4. We call for a ban on all imports of nuclear materials, whether they are vitrified or not." por el socialismo, Erik Toren On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: > I don't know about the list. I know about the *left*. The ISO, Monthly > Review, the CPUSA (whatever its other flaws), Socialist Register, New > Left Review, SDS, both the Taaffe and Woods currents do not share > David's enthusiasm for nuclear power. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == DW wrote: > > The *fact* that coal power and other fossil power has killed far more than > commercial nuclear doesnt seem to phase you or Louis at all. 5 people killed > in Connecticut are 5 more than ever killed in any US nuclear plant in 50 > years of operation and you bring up a 'maybe...'???. How many areas have > been made "unlivable" or nuclear waste spread over it? ZERO. Bizarre. This reminds me of Ronald Reagan's sales pitches for GE in the 1950s. David, like Homer Simpson, once worked in a nuclear power plant but they fired him after catching him trying to smuggle uranium out of the plant. His defense was that he only intended to use it for barbecues. > > We are never going to > ween ourselves off of fossil without nuclear energy. That's the conclusion > *more and more* on the left have arrived at: that so called 'alternatives' > are nothing more than a fanstasy that best sounds good and at worse will > keep us on fossil fuel addiction for ever. When David talks about *more and more* on the left, it should be understood that he is referring to people like Ulrich Boepple, the chairman and sole member of Neue Einheit (Revolutionary), a splinter group that broke away from Neue Einheit because it refused to endorse nuclear-powered subways in Platzgrabbemeinetuches, the West German stronghold of Neue Einheit. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Whoa, calm down. As stated before on the list, my objection to fission power is that it seems like a very expensive way to boil water-- like using an A bomb to make tea. And this: " The *fact* that coal power and other fossil power has killed far more than commercial nuclear doesnt seem to phase you or Louis at all" is 1)uncalled for and 2)bullshit-- complete, utter total bullshit. When was the last time you heard Louis or myself praising coal mines? I certainly don't understand everything about the carbon caused climate crisis but I certainly do understand how destructive coal mining has been, and how socially destructive oil production has been, oil production being modern capitalism's equivalent of cotton production in the 19th century. I was responding to your comparison of radiation to chocolate. And I stand by that response to your comparison of radiation of chocolate. You were not, and I am not, comparing radiation to oil drilling, or strip mining. I don't think wind and solar will be able to replace all of fossil fuel production, given the amount of energy required to make solar socially viable. Until there's a more efficient and compact way of generating electicity in mobile platforms, I don't see how we're going to get away from hydrocarbon sources of energy for transportation. But that's not the point either. The point is that current nuclear technologhy seems like a very advanced way of primitively producing energy, and that the potential for disaster is huge given that the same companies that strip mine, fracture for natural gas, will also control nuclear power plants. - Original Message - From: "DW" Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Thailand: Asia-Pacific left statement -- `Resolve crisis through democracy, not crackdown!' | Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://links.org.au/node/1613 By *Socialist Party of Malaysia* (PSM), *Working People's Association* (PRP) of Indonesia, *People’s Democratic Party* (PRD) of Indonesia, *Turn Left Thailand*, *Socialist Alliance* of Australia April 10, 2010 -- We are deeply concerned over the current situation in Thailand where military-backed Prime Minister Ahbisit Vejjajiva has declared a state of emergency and started a bloody crackdown amidst escalating protests calling for a fresh election. The situation is worrying as the Thai government has closed down all opposition media and given sweeping new powers to the security forces to prepare for a violent crackdown on the Red Shirt protesters. Thai troops are using excessive force including tanks and live ammunition, against pro-democracy demonstrators in Bangkok. The United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD), or better known as the "Red Shirts", has relaunched massive protests against the military-installed, unelected Ahbisit government since last March. This pro-democracy movement is comprised of rural and urban poor, who are standing up against the military-backed, oligarchic rule. The current crisis unfolded in September 2006, when the military staged a coup against the government of Thaksin Shinawatra, scrapped the 1997 popular constitution and replaced it with a military-sanctioned constitution. The royalist Yellow Shirts started to organise fascistic demonstrations when the pro-Thaksin party won in the 2007 election. The current Ahbisit government was installed by the military after the fascistic mobilisations by the Yellow Shirts and a coup by the court. The government, the army and the Yellow Shirts are afraid to face real democratic elections, as they know that they would lose since the majority of the poor support the Red Shirts. Ahbisit and the ruling elite are refusing the call for elections and are trying to buy time and even preparing for a violent crackdown. It is becoming clear that Ahbisit and the old elite are bringing the country towards a fascist dictatorship. Thailand has entered a new phase of class war. The old ruling elite with the backing of the military are using all means to scrap democracy in Thailand. The pro-democracy Red Shirts comprised of the majority of the working class, peasantry and poor, have shown their real popularity and mobilising strength which has definitely shaken the royalists and the military. With the broadening of the masses’ support for the Red Shirts, it could be a new and important step in the struggle of the ordinary people in Thailand for the restoration of democracy and social justice. *We call for:* the immediate resignation of the military-installed Ahbisit government and the holding of fresh democratic elections; * a halt to all forms of violent crackdown against Red Shirt protesters. Respect the right of the people to organise, to protest and to strike; * a halt to the suppression of democratic rights and clampdown on the media; * the Thai government to not resort to any military coup. The current crisis in Thailand only can be resolved through genuine democracy and people’s power. We extend our support and solidarity to all workers, peasants and poor in Thailand who are struggling against the anti-democratic government and for the restoration of real democracy. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == David S. No, neither does nuclear nor has it ever caused anyone to be "buried in a lead box". This is the huge popular disconnect with a sound debate over, say, climate change and. one dealing with nuclear energy. you prove the point by negative example. Nuclear energy has killed less people than any baseload power. 5 operators are killed, blown up at a gas turbine plan Ct. last montt, but because the Green movement is currently in love in with natural gas, you don't hear anything about this. If an operator stubs his toe in a nuclear plant, you'd hear about it all over the world. You as just as susceptible to such nonsense it seems as the Greens. The *fact* that coal power and other fossil power has killed far more than commercial nuclear doesnt seem to phase you or Louis at all. 5 people killed in Connecticut are 5 more than ever killed in any US nuclear plant in 50 years of operation and you bring up a 'maybe...'???. How many areas have been made "unlivable" or nuclear waste spread over it? ZERO. This is the disconnect I mentioned above. 20% of the US electrical generation is essentially carbon free *thanks to nuclear energy*. We are facing a huge carbon caused climate crisis and you don't seem to understand risk assessment...at all. This brings up to Louis comments since his comments sort of center any discussion on energy. And that's what the discussion is really about: how to produce energy and whether it is around the ability of 'wind turbines' vs coal vs gas vs solar vs nuclear, and so on. If people on this list were to do the research required to see what it would take to zero out fossil energy production, you'd find 'wind mills and solar energy' would not be able to do this. in fact. the more wind energy there is the tendency is to build more fossil plants for back up. The rather disgusting joined at the hip natural gas industry with the wind industry should be raising eyebrows among the left and on this list specifically but it does not. We are never going to ween ourselves off of fossil without nuclear energy. That's the conclusion *more and more* on the left have arrived at: that so called 'alternatives' are nothing more than a fanstasy that best sounds good and at worse will keep us on fossil fuel addiction for ever. David Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] T.A.M.I
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Don't know that it's nostalgia-- it's the music. Great performances, one after the other, and as you said the energy. Believe me, nothing about that period would ever make me want to go back to being in high school, or college... but it's like Johnny Otis' Willie and the Hand Jive... It's got a good beat, and you can dance to it. - Original Message - From: "Jeffrey Thomas Piercy" Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah except eating too much chocolate won't poison everything for miles, or require you to be buried in a lead-lined box. From: "DW" > > Lou is, of course correct against Shawns climate denialism but he makes a > typical layman's mistake in method. "Atomic radiation" is not safe or > dangerous. It's always a question of "distance, dosage and time". Like > chocholate, which people will argue "can be" dangerous, generally it is > not > when over time people only consumed in moderate amounts, be basically > neutral in it's effect on the human body. Eat it 3 times a day for your > entire life, the discussion changes. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == That's what I thought after I finished reading it. - Original Message - From: "Les Schaffer" To: "David Schanoes" Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared > > i downloaded it this morning and gave it a first quick glance. looked > much better than the boilerplate kind of whitewash i had expected. > > more after a closer reading. > > Les Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == DW wrote: > Fair enough. But as everyone...i mean "everyone" is jumping into "Green > economics" and it is what is touted by almost all climate change activists > how about "capitalist energy production based on sun, wind and tidal...". > The laregest wind and solar producers in the US for the electrical grid are > all capitalist ones (or, possibly, public power entities like Caliornia > based SMUD". Are you "militantly opposed" to this too? Absolutely not. What would be the point? Can't you tell the difference between mountaintop removal in Kentucky and windmills? What would be the basis for opposing windmills? That they are an eyesore? That is why, apparently, the liberal bourgeoisie opposed them in their summer retreats on the Massachusetts shore. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Well, Louis answered seriously to my last comment. OK. Louis writes that "...I advocate unrelenting, militant criticisms of all capitalist energy production based on oil, coal or atomic energy. Period". Fair enough. But as everyone...i mean "everyone" is jumping into "Green economics" and it is what is touted by almost all climate change activists how about "capitalist energy production based on sun, wind and tidal...". The laregest wind and solar producers in the US for the electrical grid are all capitalist ones (or, possibly, public power entities like Caliornia based SMUD". Are you "militantly opposed" to this too? The same companies that make coal equipment and lobby for it's use are also the *exact* same companies that lobby for solar and wind and it's use. It's all the same capitalist solutions. So...when, say, FPL makes a bid to produced a 500MW farm...you are "militantly opposed" or do you see this as "OK"? David Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == DW wrote: > Well, once you move to the "left" and away from actual science, I have to > admit, it certainly gets more interesting. Of course few of the groups > mentioned (and none that i actually know of) have done an indept analysis of > energy alternatives to fossil. I advocate unrelenting, militant criticisms of all capitalist energy production based on oil, coal or atomic energy. Period. I am far less insistent on criticizing Iran, Venezuela or Cuba's energy-production technologies since they are battling underdevelopment and don't have the luxury to adopt Green energy at the same pace as imperialist nations. I have no "position" as such on oil, coal or atomic energy other than to ruthlessly attack their abuses, from Texaco's rape of Ecuador, mountaintop removal in Appalachia to Chernobyls, in the past and in the future. David approaches the problem from a different angle entirely and that is as a kind of freebooting consultant to the capitalist class on how to produce clean and safe energy, except of course he does it on the Marxism list as if the White House reads our archives--not that they need any convincing. All in all, I find David much more lucid politically around a whole range of issues but I on this I find him virtually Kubrickian. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: "Louis Proyect" > One out of 1300 subscribers probably is a good indication of the > traction this viewpoint has on the left. Unlike Shawn Redden, he knows > well enough not to make a pest of himself. Make it 2, at least. --David. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Well, once you move to the "left" and away from actual science, I have to admit, it certainly gets more interesting. Of course few of the groups mentioned (and none that i actually know of) have done an indept analysis of energy alternatives to fossil. Certainly a group like the IMT (Woods) has done an *indept* analysis of climate change denial (the most extensive one I've ever seen by any left group (last year in a 5 part series). They've done ZERO on energy alternatives, however, and show a centrigugally impressionist POV with regards to this when put to the question. Socialist Action has also done something similiar. But yes, the in the *western* left, the list Lou derives his understanding of the "left" comes from, most groups do have a anti-nuclear perspective even if it is mostly derived from historical momentum from the 1970s and cemented in place by a sympathy for various "Green economic" agendas from various NGOs. I would argue that a large number of Western left groups have taken *no* position on this question at all. So, on the left I can count Hugo Chavez, and be extension, the ruling PSUV, who are seeking to build a nuclear infrastructure with help from Russia. I think they get that their"carbon communism' in Venezuela is having something of a detrimental effect on the climate, even if it's a relatively small one. I suspect it's not even up for discussion in that no one is really 'debating' the question for now. Their over reliance on hydro energy is subject to the very same climatic changes we are all seeing and has caused power shortages there: they burn a lot of gas and oil as well to make up for shortfalls...thus their wanting to use advanced nuclear energy as a way of mitigating it. Excellent. The left in the developing world is a lot less knee-jerk than the Western left is, understanding that energy is necessary for development, especially one that is carbon-free/low-carbon in effects. Nevertheless there is a real lack of scientific inquery on the left generally. On the Right, groups like the Charles Koch and the libertarian right wing CATO Institute oppose nuclear energy. There are probably a lot more. None of this btw, is at all relevant to the use of nuclear energy or any solution to both the energy crisis and the climate crisis. Every fossil company in the U.S. has touted "climate change" now, in an attempt to co-opt "Green sentiment". Does this make Cheveron touting wind mills and BP "supporting" solar make either of these 'wrong solutions'? Of course not (please note that not ONE of these companies supports nuclear and infact doesn't want to talk about it...at all). Yet I don't try to associated support for wind or solar with these right wing Fortune 500 companies. Science is not a question of popularity, it's a question of facts. That the left in the west has jumped on the "Renewable" bandwagon is hardly an endorsement of any solution based on science. In fact, while I abhor the Deniers in the debate around climate, I don't associate any solution based on what groups support which solution, but rather which one offers the most *effective* one. Like some other issues, as well, its a shame that the "right" has often a better understanding of both science and politics than what passes for the "The Left". Louis included. David Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] T.A.M.I
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 04/09/2010 12:44 PM, Tom Cod wrote: > Yeah well, it reminds me of the Lloyd Thaxton show we used to watch as kids > back in those days I don't know of that particular guy or his show, but the T.A.M.I. concert definitely had a hilarious sort of American Bandstand feel to it, including kids in the background whose job it was to dance nonstop and give off the impression that they're having a ridiculous amount of fun. You also happen to get that impression much stronger even from the actual audience itself. The energy really is amazing. Seriously, look at this lineup: * The Barbarians * The Beach Boys * Chuck Berry * James Brown and The Famous Flames * Marvin Gaye * Gerry & The Pacemakers * Lesley Gore * Jan and Dean * Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas * Smokey Robinson and The Miracles * The Rolling Stones * The Supremes I've never heard of four of those acts, but they definitely don't slow things down. I'm sure the nostalgia factor would make many of you, S. Artesian for one, appreciate it in a way I can't. Conversely though, it's exciting to me as a kind of documentary of a particular moment in the rapidly changing popular culture of the 1960s. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == DW wrote: > For newer members to the list, Louis is in denial about the actual > 'popularity' of nuclear energy is society at large including those on this > list. I don't know about the list. I know about the *left*. The ISO, Monthly Review, the CPUSA (whatever its other flaws), Socialist Register, New Left Review, SDS, both the Taaffe and Woods currents do not share David's enthusiasm for nuclear power. In fact, the only groups that ever agreed with him were the RCP (now Spiked Online--it figures) and a grotesque Maoist splinter group called Neue Einheit. He is right that it is much more popular in society at large, starting with the bum in the White House. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == For newer members to the list, Louis is in denial about the actual 'popularity' of nuclear energy is society at large including those on this list. In fact, he won't allow a real discussion on it, probably because he doesn't want to take the time to learn a thing about it, and relies on goof balls like Harvey Wasserman to think for him. The majority of those that have expressed an opinion on the subject out of this list of "1300" are about TEN. Of those about 2/3 oppose nuclear energy as part of a solution to the climate crisis. Again, Louis has an aversion to science and method, don't let it bother you. You'll also notice his way of arguing is to raise strawman arguments that are irrelevant to the points made. He prefers the "What He REALLY Means..." method of arguemenation. Probably something he learned from his days as a stalwart "Cannnonite" David Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > Lou is, of course correct against Shawns climate denialism but he makes a > typical layman's mistake in method. "Atomic radiation" is not safe or > dangerous. It's always a question of "distance, dosage and time". Like > chocholate, which people will argue "can be" dangerous, generally it is not > when over time people only consumed in moderate amounts, be basically > neutral in it's effect on the human body. Eat it 3 times a day for your > entire life, the discussion changes. The same is true with radiation > regardless of the source. Radiation, as such, is biologically neutral > depending on the dosage we receive (we receve about 300 mrem a year). If I > dumped you at Chernobyl a few days after the the accident, that would be a > whole different story. > > David For newcomers to the list, David is our resident fan of nuclear power. One out of 1300 subscribers probably is a good indication of the traction this viewpoint has on the left. Unlike Shawn Redden, he knows well enough not to make a pest of himself. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Lou is, of course correct against Shawns climate denialism but he makes a typical layman's mistake in method. "Atomic radiation" is not safe or dangerous. It's always a question of "distance, dosage and time". Like chocholate, which people will argue "can be" dangerous, generally it is not when over time people only consumed in moderate amounts, be basically neutral in it's effect on the human body. Eat it 3 times a day for your entire life, the discussion changes. The same is true with radiation regardless of the source. Radiation, as such, is biologically neutral depending on the dosage we receive (we receve about 300 mrem a year). If I dumped you at Chernobyl a few days after the the accident, that would be a whole different story. David Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Glenn Beck tells FORBES....
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == "I could give a flying crap about the political process. We're an entertainment company." http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2010/0426/entertainment-fox-news-simon-schuster-glenn-beck-inc.html This frank admission by one of the FOX stable of resident lunatics is probably no news to any of us. We do realize that this how they're choosing to pitch their public affairs entertainment programs is not without political significance, though. What does this say for the fifth of the public that thought Glenn Beck was a political thinker? Would they have followed other entertainers as well? Maybe some of them hi-fallutin' hoity-toity Hollywood types if they had been saying what they wanted to hear? Would they have confused Bozo the Clown with a political thinker? Maybe Rin Tin Tin? Or a smurf? ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Now, I'm beginning to see the soft spot Shawn has for the teabaggers ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] South Africa: Killing Of White Supremacist Brings Many Issues To Surface
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == South Africa: Killing Of White Supremacist Brings Many Issues To Surface http://www.malcolm-che.com/2010/04/10/africa-south-africa-killing-of-white-supremacist-brings-many-issues-to-surface/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 4/10/10 10:24 AM, S. Artesian wrote: > Have you read the report, Shawn? > i downloaded it this morning and gave it a first quick glance. looked much better than the boilerplate kind of whitewash i had expected. more after a closer reading. Les Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "climate change" and our moderator the positivist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 4/10/10 1:05 PM, Shawn Redden wrote: > Especially all the conspiracy theory, fucking idiot stuff. And of > course, Yoshie. Shawn: if you showed one tenth of one percent of the intellectual competency of Yoshie on this list, we might have an interesting debate about climate change. go read a book or something [ok, Lou and I sound alike, sue me]. how about at least get us some data on expenditures on climate science at various research centers and universities. i'd be curious to see such data and watch you hang yourself trying to prove a conspiratorial approach to climate science based on raw expenditure data. or find a link between the scientists who acquire and the scientists who analyze the diverse data sets mention below. then try to tie in the proxy data science people (ice bubbles, tree rings, etc), and then tie in the people doing the GCM simulations, and then tie them into the people doing normal everyday atmospheric physics upon which the GCM models and statistical methods of the dataset gatherers are built. THEN maybe we could have a discussion. Others: nice article at realclimate, as usual: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2010/04/climate-scientist-bashing/ of relevance here are the comments on temperature data: """What is first greatly hyped is then gleefully destroyed. According to DER SPIEGEL “the entire profession” of climate science “based much of its work on his [Jones'] research” and “almost every internal debate among the climate popes passed through his computer”. Now it happens that I, most likely not an untypical example, have never worked with Jones’ data and have only exchanged a handful of emails (out of tens of thousands every year) with him, although I do probably count as part of the “profession”. There is a whole set of other data of global temperature, e.g. the data from NASA which is based on weather stations (and which I prefer for various reasons) or data from NOAA or the satellite data from RSS or the UAH. As is always scientifically useful, important conclusions are based not on one single set of data but on the fact that a whole range of competing scientific groups find consistent results, using different methods (see Figure).""" there are more figures and interesting comments at the link above. Les Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "climate change" and our moderator the positivist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 1:13 PM -0400 4/10/10, Louis Proyect wrote: >... wisecracks about Paul McCartney. or Yoshie. I mean, at least Yoshie never messed with the guitar solo to "Let it Be". Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "climate change" and our moderator the positivist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Shawn Redden wrote: >> Temperatures have been rising for the past 100 years. > > Except for that little period between 1940=1980, but otherwise you're > right about everything, Louis. Always. Comrades can look at a chart of temperatures for the past 140 years and decide for themselves what the trend is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Instrumental_Temperature_Record.svg > > Especially all the conspiracy theory, fucking idiot stuff. Why don't you take the trouble to read a fucking book on the topic before you pop off again. You have posted 57 times about the question since you have been on the list, but it has always been the same, wise-ass, insinuating, uninformed, time-wasting bullshit. I just might throw you off the list just for wasting bandwidth. 1300 subscribers don't need to have their time wasted by wisecracks about Paul McCartney. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "climate change" and our moderator the positivist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 12:30 PM -0400 4/10/10, Louis Proyect wrote: >Temperatures have been rising for the past 100 years. Except for that little period between 1940=1980, but otherwise you're right about everything, Louis. Always. Especially all the conspiracy theory, fucking idiot stuff. And of course, Yoshie. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == My understanding of it is not that data supporting global warming was fabricated but rather, as evidenced through certain emails, those who questioned that, or were viewed as questioning it, were subjected to derision and discussion about harassing them. Surely that's a question involving academic freedom and individual rights, but not anything that goes to the heart of the evidence supporting global warming. For example, just because noisy proponents of creation science might be subjected to improper social pressures, doesn't mean that their position is sound or that Darwin and those in his tradition are frauds. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Brazil: A Tragedy of Local and Global Dimensions
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > > *Brazil: A Tragedy of Local and Global Dimensions > *Fabiana Frayssinet, Inter Press Service: "The people who live in the > favela of Guararapes are probably unaware that the heavy rains that forced > them to flee their homes were caused by a phenomenon that is affecting the > whole planet: global warming." > > http://www.truthout.org/brazil-a-tragedy-local-and-global-dimensions58457 > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "climate change" and our moderator the positivist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Shawn Redden wrote: > > Why do you use the Republican buzzword "Climate Change," Louis? How > does that term benefit anyone's understanding of anything real? It is not a Republican buzzword. > > I've been perfectly clear about 2 things: > > 1.We know who is poisoning the biosphere and destroying the > environment. Taking action to stop them doesn't require weather > reports for 2065. It may, however, require that we duct tape Al > Gore's mouth shut. Still no answer to my question. > > 2.Like much deemed "scientific", "climate science" of the IPCC > sort is profoundly politicized and of dubious merit to those seeking > real answers to real questions about our planet. That certainly would not include you, master of evasion and circumlocution. > Other than a fake phrase that retards and diverts the environmental > justice movement - a giant head fake, born out by the CRU fraud - I > don't know what 'climate change' even is. So you confess to being a total ignoramus on the question. So why are you wasting bandwidth? > (I confess: I do sometimes look ahead to the 5-day during baseball > season and to check for snow days in winter) Listening to Rush Limbaugh, have we? > I know that while the biosphere is being destroyed by real, actually > existing behavior, and all the while global warming zealots like > yourself obsess over computer projections 50 years hence as if they > were the holy trinity. Who is talking about 50 years into the future. Temperatures have been rising for the past 100 years. Also, seven of the eight warmest years on record have occurred since 2001 and the 10 warmest years have all occurred since 1995. This has an effect especially on poor people who will be suffering from drought, flooding, and all sorts of cataclysms they have no ability to withstand under neo-colonial societies. People like Fidel Castro and Evo Morales are totally preoccupied with these problems even if a conspiracy theorist like you prefers to remain ignorant. It is too bad that you haven't learned to keep your trap shut when you have not taken the trouble to read the scientific literature. > Notice that while Proyect preaches with the passion of a missionary, > he he never says what should be done about 'global warming'. His > chief remedy, I suspect, is more cash-money sent to CU junk science > by way of his boy, Lee Bollinger. What a total fucking idiot. Columbia University is a major research institute. The people who work at Lamont-Doherty have spent decades studying climate change even if a drooling imbecile like yourself would prefer to gaze at your belly button for insights. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] "climate change" and our moderator the positivist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 11:27 AM -0400 4/10/10, Louis Proyect wrote: > >You will notice that Shawn continues to refuse to give a straight answer >to the question: do greenhouse emissions cause climate change? What an >intellectual coward. Why do you use the Republican buzzword "Climate Change," Louis? How does that term benefit anyone's understanding of anything real? I've been perfectly clear about 2 things: 1. We know who is poisoning the biosphere and destroying the environment. Taking action to stop them doesn't require weather reports for 2065. It may, however, require that we duct tape Al Gore's mouth shut. 2. Like much deemed "scientific", "climate science" of the IPCC sort is profoundly politicized and of dubious merit to those seeking real answers to real questions about our planet. Other than a fake phrase that retards and diverts the environmental justice movement - a giant head fake, born out by the CRU fraud - I don't know what 'climate change' even is. Further, any movement which predicates itself on SPECULATION about COMPUTER MODELS concerning weather forecasts in 2060 seems patently absurd to me: the same hacks can't even get a 3-day forecast right. (I confess: I do sometimes look ahead to the 5-day during baseball season and to check for snow days in winter) I know that while the biosphere is being destroyed by real, actually existing behavior, and all the while global warming zealots like yourself obsess over computer projections 50 years hence as if they were the holy trinity. Notice that while Proyect preaches with the passion of a missionary, he he never says what should be done about 'global warming'. His chief remedy, I suspect, is more cash-money sent to CU junk science by way of his boy, Lee Bollinger. Shawn Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Dilip Hiro interview on Central Asia
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/04/hbc-90006846 Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] The death of Dawn Johnson's nomination
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Apparently the Obama White House was worried that she meant business about ending Bush era abuses. http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2010/04/09/johnsen Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Shawn Redden wrote: > Lots of things cause cancer, Louis. In fact, it's the greatest > public health crisis we face. And ironically, this one EASILY shown > to be created by those who poison the biosphere. > > But the 'global warmers' don't really care much about going after > them. Why focus on the criminals who we KNOW are poisoning the > planet and killing people when we've got computer scientists (who > can't tell the weather 3 days from now) and the HoC telling us what > the real problems are. > You will notice that Shawn continues to refuse to give a straight answer to the question: do greenhouse emissions cause climate change? What an intellectual coward. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 10:24 AM -0400 4/10/10, S. Artesian wrote: > >Have you read the report, Shawn? > I've read lots of the e-mails in question and did a lot of digging on the fraud itself. I did not, I confess, bother slogging through the British government's whitewash of the CRU's use of false data or their efforts to conceal its use from the public. Nor do I plan to. My point was that very few government reports get passed along to the Marxism list as fact, and this one was. Shawn Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] ... and water is wet
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The WSJ has posted to its online site the following story: Big Banks Mask Risk Levels Quarter-End Loan Figures Sit 42% Below Peak, Then Rise as New Period Progresses; SEC Review http://tinyurl.com/ydw5gb9 "Major banks have masked their risk levels in the past five quarters by temporarily lowering their debt just before reporting it to the public, according to data from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York." In essence, the Repo 105 games that Lehman Brothers was playing in the leadup to the meltdown was going on everywhere, under different names, and it continues (gasp!) today. Days earlier (1 April), the same rag reported on the 'secret' holdings of the same NY Fed. In a piece called, "Mortgage Problems? Fed Can Relate," we read: "The Federal Reserve Bank of New York doesn't have to look far to understand the woes of banks and investors that hold loans and securities underpinned by real estate. "It can look at its own books. "A review of the portfolios the regional Fed bank assumed as part of two financial bailouts in 2008 shows a complex hodgepodge of souring commercial-property loans, securities backed by U.S. subprime loans, credit insurance written on troubled bond and mortgage insurers and loans tied to struggling hotels in Georgia and California. The New York Fed published the detailed portfolios on Wednesday." In light of the 'Mark-to-Make Believe' accounting protocol in effect, this little nugget is interesting: "The total fair value of the three portfolios as of Dec. 31 was $65 billion, which puts the Fed's holdings on par with the fair value of assets at PNC Financial Services Group, the sixth-largest U.S. bank in terms of market value, according to research firm SNL Financial. Fair values are based on observable market prices, data points that can underpin an asset, and cash flow." Finally, a money quote from one of the jackals: "'To say this portfolio is a pile of junk is being unkind to junk,' David Zervos, Jefferies & Co. global fixed-income strategist, wrote in a note Thursday." Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hit the send button to soon. Below the press release from the committee-- which hardly sounds like a whitewash, and a link to the entire report: CLIMATE SCIENCE MUST BECOME MORE TRANSPARENT SAY MPs The Science and Technology Committee today publishes its report on the disclosure of climate data from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia. The Committee calls for the climate science community to become more transparent by publishing raw data and detailed methodologies. Phil Willis MP, Committee Chair, said: "Climate science is a matter of global importance. On the basis of the science, governments across the world will be spending trillions of pounds on climate change mitigation. The quality of the science therefore has to be irreproachable. What this inquiry revealed was that climate scientists need to take steps to make available all the data that support their work and full methodological workings, including their computer codes. Had both been available, many of the problems at CRU could have been avoided." The focus on Professor Jones and CRU has been largely misplaced. On the accusations relating to Professor Jones's refusal to share raw data and computer codes, the Committee considers that his actions were in line with common practice in the climate science community but that those practices need to change. On the much cited phrases in the leaked e-mails-"trick" and "hiding the decline"-the Committee considers that they were colloquial terms used in private e-mails and the balance of evidence is that they were not part of a systematic attempt to mislead. Insofar as the Committee was able to consider accusations of dishonesty against CRU, the Committee considers that there is no case to answer. The Committee found no reason in this inquiry to challenge the scientific consensus as expressed by Professor Beddington, the Government Chief Scientific Adviser, that "global warming is happening [and] that it is induced by human activity". But this was not an inquiry into the science produced by CRU and it will be for the Scientific Appraisal Panel, announced by the University on 22 March, to determine whether the work of CRU has been soundly built. On the mishandling of Freedom of Information (FoI) requests, the Committee considers that much of the responsibility should lie with the University, not CRU. The leaked e-mails appear to show a culture of non-disclosure at CRU and instances where information may have been deleted to avoid disclosure, particularly to climate change sceptics. The failure of the University to grasp fully the potential damage this could do and did was regrettable. The University needs to re-assess how it can support academics whose expertise in FoI requests is limited. http://www.parliament.uk/science/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Shawn Redden wrote: > Seeing as the British government said nothing was fraudulent about > the CRU fraud, I suppose there's nothing to this story after all. > > More importantly than the House of Commons, what does Sir Paul > McCartney say about it? Or that prince in Afghanistan? What is your effing point? That greenhouse emissions causing climate change is fake science? It is nearly impossible to figure out what your problem is since you are so demagogic, as if it would have any impact here. Instead of making wisecracks about Paul McCartney, your time and bandwidth would be better spent in confronting the *science*. By analogy, there have been accusations that the cancer deaths attributable to Chernobyl have been exaggerated (I am leaving aside the merits of this argument) but nobody would question whether atomic radiation can cause cancer. Get it? Probably not... Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Have you read the report, Shawn? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Thailand: Tyrants shoot the people to cling to power | Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == STOP PRESS -- April 10, 2010 By *Giles Ji Ungpakorn* Soldiers armed with live and rubber bullets and CS gas are attacking the peaceful pro-democracy Red Shirts at various spots in the centre of Bangkok. The gang of royalist tyrants -- Abhisit Vejjajiva’s Democrat Party, the military, the royal palace and the bureaucratic elites -- can only cling to power through violence and lies. As they use armed troops and tanks against pro-democracy demonstrators in Bangkok for the fifth time in 40 years, the tyrants hope that a blanket of censorship throughout Thailand will allow them to do their dirty work in secret. But their censorship is not working and the assembled masses of pro-democracy Red Shirts are resisting. The Red Shirts want democracy and want immediate elections, but democracy and elections are the last things that the tyrants want. They have lorded it over the people for years. They have never won an election and they have never been happy with respecting election results. They are supported in their bloody work by the fascist Yellow Shirted PAD, most middle-class academics and the self-appointed NGO leaders. Together they are contemptuous and fearful of ordinary working people, the poor, the farmers, the citizens. Hovering over the repression and exploitation of the people, like a mean and nasty dark cloud, is the king and his network of toadies. Ever since coming to the throne, king has served the army and the elites well, giving them a legitimacy based on superstition, hierarchy and grovelling. The people have risen up against the tyrants. The “refined” mask of Eton and Oxford educated Abhisit Vejjajiva has slipped off to reveal just another tin-pot dictator. It is time to clear away all the gangsters and parasites who have held sway over Thai society for too long. Down with the military! Down with the monarchy! Down with the dictatorship! Power to working people! http://links.org.au/node/1610 Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "Climategate" Researchers Largely Cleared
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Just getting around to looking at some of this week's messages and this one struck me as remarkable. Passed along without real comment, this is a whitewash, force-fed by hacks and stovepiped as truth. At 7:31 AM -0400 4/7/10, Greg McDonald wrote: > >http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/30/tech/main6347584.shtml > >The House of Commons' Science and Technology Committee said Wednesday >that they'd seen no evidence to support charges that the University of >East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit or its director, Phil Jones, had >tampered with data or perverted the peer review process to exaggerate >the threat of global warming two of the most serious criticisms levied >against the climatologist and his colleagues. Seeing as the British government said nothing was fraudulent about the CRU fraud, I suppose there's nothing to this story after all. More importantly than the House of Commons, what does Sir Paul McCartney say about it? Or that prince in Afghanistan? Shawn Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] [microsound] Flash Mob 2 And The Pentagram Patriots
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == "She came up to me and said 'Ron, would you be interested in this?'" recalled Janssen of Evans' spying. "All it is is network marketing in its simplest form. I guess Organizing for American calls it a snowflake, where you get five different points and they go out, and from there five, and then five, you know, all the way around. And each level goes out five. So you get to a lot of people in a very quick period of time. And I thought, 'Well, it was interesting.' We kind of changed the name from a snowflake, I thought, Well, if they're calling it a snowflake you've got to come up with something else, we called it the Pentagon Patriots, which is a little bit more conservative-sounding." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/09/alan-grayson-confronts-go_n_532536.html -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Flash-Mob-2-And-The-Pentagram-Patriots-tp2823p2823.html Sent from the Marxism mailing list archive at Nabble.com. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
