date:20100509

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On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Mark Lause  wrote:

> I wonder if it's because the people who read and comment on our Fb
> pages are probably not seriously shaken by this.
>
> Those who'd be most upset at the entire race purity thing know that
> Neanderthal bones were put there by Satan to confuse us.
>
> ML

I have a few southern "friends" on FB who I knew growing up in the
south and are now mere acquaintances. That was directed towards them
primarily.

Interesting how the truth is the exact opposite of the white, southern
ideology on race. African-Americans are having the last laugh on this
one, as it turns out white people truly are the "mongrel race".

Greg

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[Marxism] Is this a Trotskyist list? Or, what are its limits?

2010-05-09 Thread Grover Furr-FM

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Dear Louis, and all:

Is this a Trotskyist list? or, a list for the discussion of Trotskyism?

I see quite a number of posts that are obviously about Trotskyist 
groups, pro and con, or the statements of Trotskyist groups.

I ask because a few weeks ago I posted the URLs of two historical 
articles on Trotsky:

Sven-Eric Holmström."New Evidence Concerning the 'Hotel Bristol'
Question in the First Moscow Trial of 1936"
-http://clogic.eserver.org/2008/Holmstrom.pdf
2009 issue:
Grover Furr. "Evidence of Leon Trotsky's Collaboration with
Germany and Japan"
-http://clogic.eserver.org/2009/Furr.pdf

Louis, the listowner, immediately declared that discussion of these 
matters was off limits.

OK, it's his list and he makes the rules. But what ARE the rules? Given 
that there's a good deal of posting of Trotskyist stuff, pro- and con- 
and inter-, that appears on the list without Louis' objections.

Not that I want to "discuss Trotskyism". Far from it!

But I don't understand the limits and need some guidance.

Grover Furr


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Re: [Marxism] Is this a Trotskyist list? Or, what are its limits?

2010-05-09 Thread Mark Lause

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Whatever Grover sees as peculiar Trotskyist here has to do with
political questions.  There are also arguments here peculiar to
historically Stalinist positions that have to do with political
questions.  And social democratic and anarchist.

Louis can certainly speak for himself, but there's certainly a case to
be made for opening personal attacks on people murdered seventy years
ago.  Getting such stuff flushed right out into the open would make it
easier for us to get out our hoses and wash them away...though the
waste of water's an issue and the smell's always a problem

The point is that it opens the door to a permanent and pointless
process of venting and flame wars...an ongoing diversion to no clear
purpose.

Some of us think there might be some merit in keeping the focus on the
current implosion of the capitalist system, the uncontrolled
capitalist warming of the planet, the wars currently blowing people to
bits, the oil spill washing up on the gulf coast, the bankruptcy of
capitalist politics, etc.

ML


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[Marxism] Cuba declared 'best place to be a mother'

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http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2/819816646?page=NewsArticle&id=13987&news_iv_ctrl=1261

Cuba declared 'best place to be a mother'

Sunday, May 9, 2010
By: Priscilla Lounds

Afghanistan is last on list; United States is number 28

Being a mother brings joy as well as challenges. The international
charity Save the Children has released its Eleventh Annual Mothers
Index of the World’s Best and Worst Places to be a Mother, just in
time for Mother’s Day. The index is based on various indicators of
women’s and children’s health and well-being, including access to
education, jobs and health care for women and children.

In this report, Save the Children rated the United States at number 28
on the list of developed nations, behind Croatia, Latvia, Greece,
Portugal and many other countries. Cuba ranked number one on the list
of less-developed nations, while Afghanistan came in dead last.

One reason why the United States came in at number 28 on the
“Developed Nations” list is because of the high maternal mortality
rate—one death for every 4,800 births, as well as minimal maternity
leave policies. Women in the United States can be expected to complete
16 years of formal education. Sixty-eight percent of U.S. women use
modern birth control methods. Infant mortality is eight deaths per
1,000 live births. In reality, the U.S. infant mortality rate is
significantly higher in the Black and Latino communities.

Based on the statistics compiled by Save the Children, Afghanistan is
the worst place on Earth to be a mother. Women in Afghanistan have on
average only five  years of education. The life expectancy of an
Afghani woman is just 44 years, while only 16 percent of Afghani women
use modern contraception. Tragically, one out of four children in
Afghanistan will die before his or her fifth birthday. As these data
show, women in Afghanistan have not been liberated by the U.S.
invasion on their homeland as the establishment media claim.

Cuba, a small island nation, stands at number one among less-developed
nations. One hundred percent of Cuban births are attended by a skilled
medical professional. Seventy –two percent of Cuban women use modern
birth control methods, while the average Cuban woman can expect to
complete 19 years of formal education. Infant mortality rates in Cuba
are lower than in the United States at only six deaths per 1,000 live
births. How can Cuba do this despite more than 50 years of the
imperialist blockade and relentless destabilization attempts from the
United States? The answer lies with Cuba’s socialized system that
provides education and quality health care for all.


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[Marxism] Mothersday poem

2010-05-09 Thread George Snedeker

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THE END

 

All that remains 

of my mother 

Are memories 

of her dying. 

 

She was rushed 

to the hospital

because of an obstruction 

in her stomach. 

 

But there were complications 

after her surgery 

and she spent the next three months 

in the ICU 

in a semiconscious state

of mind. 

 

Her surgeon refused 

to open her up again 

saying that 

she would most likely die 

on the operating table. 

 

The doctor 

did not say 

but I suspect 

the blockage 

was some kind 

of cancer. 

 

When I visited her 

in the ICU 

she asked me 

to take an imaginary cigarette 

from her hand. 

And put it out 

for her.

 

she thought 

the cigarette 

was real 

 

Her doctor said 

that electrolyte changes 

were putting her 

in the semiconscious state 

of mind. 

 

In ninety days, 

all of this would be over. 



(My mother died in 1972 at the age of 63. Working class people don't live into 
their 90s like the bourgeosie) 



 

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Re: [Marxism] Mothersday poem

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George Snedeker wrote:
> THE END
> 
>  
> 
> All that remains 
> 
> of my mother 
> 
> Are memories 
> 
> of her dying. 
> 

I know that mother's day was invented in order to sell greeting's cards 
and flowers but it will always have a different meaning for me since my 
own mom died a day after Mother's Day 2 years ago. (The holiday is the 
second Sunday in May.) I just returned from upstate where I placed a 
pebble on her gravestone, a Jewish tradition. For my own reflections on 
the death of a mother, see:

http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/reflections-on-my-mothers-death/

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Re: [Marxism] Mothersday poem

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Louis Proyect wrote:
> I know that mother's day was invented in order to sell greeting's cards 
> and flowers but it will always have a different meaning for me since my 
> own mom died a day after Mother's Day 2 years ago. (The holiday is the 
> second Sunday in May.) I just returned from upstate where I placed a 
> pebble on her gravestone, a Jewish tradition. For my own reflections on 
> the death of a mother, see:
> 
> http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/reflections-on-my-mothers-death/

Hah! A minute after posting this, I solved today's NYT double-acrostic 
that had a mother's day theme:

Leo Rosten, The Joy of Yiddish

"A neighbor was so fierce in her maternal affections that when her 
no-goodnik son was arrested for some infraction she returned from 
visiting him to announce you never saw such a beautiful jail my Morris 
is in."


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Re: [Marxism] Mothersday poem

2010-05-09 Thread Thomas Bias

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Actually, Mother's Day was "invented" to promote peace. The idea came from
Julia Ward Howe, the lyricist of the "Battle Hymn of the Republic." Her 1870
Mother's Day Proclamation follows:

Arise then...women of this day!
Arise, all women who have hearts!
Whether your baptism be of water or of tears!
Say firmly:
"We will not have questions answered by irrelevant agencies,
Our husbands will not come to us, reeking with carnage,
For caresses and applause.
Our sons shall not be taken from us to unlearn
All that we have been able to teach them of charity, mercy and patience.
We, the women of one country,
Will be too tender of those of another country
To allow our sons to be trained to injure theirs."

>From the bosom of a devastated Earth a voice goes up with
Our own. It says: "Disarm! Disarm!
The sword of murder is not the balance of justice."
Blood does not wipe out dishonor,
Nor violence indicate possession.
As men have often forsaken the plough and the anvil
At the summons of war,
Let women now leave all that may be left of home
For a great and earnest day of counsel.
Let them meet first, as women, to bewail and commemorate the dead.
Let them solemnly take counsel with each other as to the means
Whereby the great human family can live in peace...
Each bearing after his own time the sacred impress, not of Caesar,
But of God -
In the name of womanhood and humanity, I earnestly ask
That a general congress of women without limit of nationality,
May be appointed and held at someplace deemed most convenient
And the earliest period consistent with its objects,
To promote the alliance of the different nationalities,
The amicable settlement of international questions,
The great and general interests of peace.--Julia Ward Howe

--TB

-Original Message-
From: marxism-bounces+biastg=embarqmail@lists.econ.utah.edu
[mailto:marxism-bounces+biastg=embarqmail@lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf
Of Louis Proyect
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 12:28 PM
To: Thomas Bias
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Mothersday poem

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I know that mother's day was invented in order to sell greeting's cards 
and flowers...




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Re: [Marxism] Evidence Suggests Early Humans Mated with Neanderthals

2010-05-09 Thread Thomas Bias

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GEICO.COM--so easy a white man can do it.--Tom

-Original Message-
From: marxism-bounces+biastg=embarqmail@lists.econ.utah.edu
[mailto:marxism-bounces+biastg=embarqmail@lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf
Of Mark Lause
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 10:02 AM
To: Thomas Bias
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Evidence Suggests Early Humans Mated with
Neanderthals

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Of course, in reality, the only mongrels are culturally constructed.
The delicious bit here is that the primitive and brutal image of the
Neanderthals resulted from the Europeans attempt to distance
themselves from an "ape-man."  It's interesting that the only
relatives of the Neanderthals turn out to be the whites.





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[Marxism] Riot Dog--the Greek Underdog

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(Correction: Riot-dog has three different FB pages).

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/bravest_protester_is_mystery_mascot_j8JKFQgwu6hm6YfgAOaj2O

Mystery dog becomes Greek-riot mascot

By ANDY SOLTIS

Last Updated: 9:55 AM, May 8, 2010

In Greece, where rioting is a national sport, protesters have a mascot.

A mystery mutt has turned up at every major demonstration in Athens
for the past two years and earned iconic status.

He's shadowed by photographers, inspires bloggers, has earned fame in
YouTube videos, and boasts his own Facebook page (as "Riot-dog").

"I've seen him many times on TV," wrote one admiring blogger. "He
doesn't seem to get scared of tear gas, explosions, petrol bombs and
people screaming all over. He actually seems to enjoy himself a lot!"

In recent photos he is seen showing solidarity with hooded
rock-throwers and barking at cops in riot gear.

He wears a blue collar, indicating he's a stray who has been vaccinated.

Some Athens-based bloggers claim his name is Kanellos, which is Greek
for "cinnamon." But others say that dog died in 2008.

No, this dog is Louk, named after the sausage that he loves to eat,
they said. Another version is that his name is Theodorus and he lives
in Syntagma Square, the central Athens showcase that has become ground
zero for violent protests.

"What brings him to the riots? Does he believe in the overthrow of
private ownership?" an admirer asked on Facebook.

"Does he see the rioters as his pack? Does he just hope that the
police are going to start throwing those big sticks for him to fetch?"

Other bloggers said the dog shows up at riots because he belongs to a
photographer or a cop.

But most agreed he was on the side of the underdogs.

"I wish my dog would stand up for what she believes in," a pet-loving
blogger wrote.

Athens was quiet yesterday after three days of rioting. Kanellos,
Louk, Theodorus, or whoever he is, took the day off.

Read more:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/bravest_protester_is_mystery_mascot_j8JKFQgwu6hm6YfgAOaj2O#ixzz0nS5l3rDR

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[Marxism] DIE LINKE with 6% in the latest prognoses of the election result in North Rhine Westphalia

2010-05-09 Thread Einde O'Callaghan

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According to the latest prognoses DIE LINKE have got about 6% in the 
state elections in North Rhine Westphalia, the largest state in Germany. 
If this result holds up during the count the party will have about 12 
seats in the next Landtag.

Einde O'Callaghan


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[Marxism] Lenin's Tomb on the British vote

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http://leninology.blogspot.com/2010/05/there-are-no-good-options.html


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Re: [Marxism] Is this a Trotskyist list? Or, what are its, limits?

2010-05-09 Thread Grover Furr-FM

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Dear Louis:

You wrote:

> No, it is not a Trotskyist list but most of the subscribers have little
> use for the kind of hard-core Stalinism you support.

Well, how to reply to such a false statement? Let me try:

I don't concede that there IS such a thing as "Stalinism." No doubt 
there was, 50+ years ago. And no doubt somewhere there are some people 
who have the same kind of "cult" of Stalin as present-day Trotskyists 
have of Trotsky, and present-day Maoists have of Mao.

But if there is, I don't participate it in, or in any "cult." "Cults" of 
great leaders are reactionary, period.

So I do not support "Stalinism" of any kind, hard-core or otherwise.  I 
have no loyalty towards Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, or anybody else.

Where did you get that idea, anyway? Well, not from me.

Stalin and the Bolsheviks did some things are were arguably right, and a 
lot of things that, in hindsight, I'd say were errors. Of course this 
was largely inevitable and unavoidable, since the Bolsheviks were the 
first, "blazing the path", so to speak. They were bound to make lots of 
errors -- from which we can now learn, if we try hard enough.

I support an attempt to discover the truth about the history of the 
communist movement. That's the only way we can learn what the 
Bolsheviks, Stalin, Mao and others, did that was right, and what they 
did that was wrong.

There's a lot of lies, and a lot of denial, going around. All the 
anticommunists lie, and pretty much all the time.

Most people on the Left are into "belief" -- they "believe" some things, 
and some people, and "disbelieve" other things, other people.

Problem is: "belief" and "disbelief" never helped establish what's true 
and what's false. So people who "believe" and "disbelieve" are a 
roadblock for themselves, and for others who take them seriously.

Case in point: I concluded that Trotsky really did collaborate with the 
Germans and Japanese because began with an hypothesis: Look for the 
evidence. See if there is any. It turns out that there is a very great 
deal, and it could not possibly all have been "faked."

 From what I wrote above, you can see that I fully expect that many 
people will not "believe" that. But I am not interested at all in people 
who decide serious questions of truth and falsehood on the basis of 
"belief", "disbelief", "denial", and so on.

Marx' favorite slogan was: "Doubt everything!" That means: Doubt 
Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, the statements of anticommunists, -- everything.

Look for evidence! Have the courage to decide what is true and false 
based upon the evidence!

Most of all: Doubt -- question -- YOUR OWN preconceived ideas and 
deeply-cherished biases! Otherwise, you're not trying to find the truth.

Is it disillusioning to find that your "hero", whoever he (or she) was, 
did not tell the truth all the time? That he (or she) did things that 
you "do not want him to have done"?

Time, then, to grow up. Time to get real. PAST time!

If you want to call a determination to find the truth, as supported by 
the best evidence, "Stalinism" -- then I will be happy to be called a 
"Stalinist". The overt anticommunists normally call me that already.

But I don't think that is what you mean by "Stalinist." In which case, I 
am not a "Stalinist", Louis!

I am trying to find the truth. What are you doing?

Sincerely,

Grover Furr

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Re: [Marxism] Is this a Trotskyist list? Or, what are its, limits?

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Grover Furr-FM wrote:

> I am trying to find the truth. What are you doing?
> 
> Sincerely,
> 

So you are not a Stalinist. Congratulations.

In any case, just as long as you lay off the Moscow Trials, etc. here, 
you are welcome. You are also welcome to continue sending brief items 
directing people to things you have written about the 20s and 30s. I am 
sure that some people will find that interesting, even though I'd 
personally prefer to watch paint dry.

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Re: [Marxism] Riot Dog--the Greek Underdog

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http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0508/riotdog-icon-greek-protest-movement/

‘Riot-Dog’: Protest pooch becomes icon of Greek solidarity

By Stephen C. Webster
Saturday, May 8th, 2010 -- 3:52 pm


Revolutionary-era Americans had the "Join or Die" snake. Iran's green
revolution rallied around the death of Neda Agha-Soltan. Ukraine's
orange revolution exploded after the poisoning of Victor Yushchenko.

In a Greece struggling amidst the throes of draconian, IMF-led
budgetary cutbacks, another symbol of revolution is rising. They call
him either "Riot-Dog" or "Rebel-Dog", depending on the source.

With a national debt topping 300 billion Euros, a looming EU-IMF
bailout at $140 billion or more and frequent rioting over the
country's agreement to a massive austerity plan, the pooch seems to be
gaining traction among protesters as an image of solidarity.

The canine's real name is Kanellos and, according to published
accounts, he's acquired quite a taste for civil unrest, having made an
appearance at virtually every major Greek protest and riot over the
last two years.

Kanellos has cropped up in photos taken by news agencies spanning the
globe, including Agence France-Presse, Reuters, Getty Images, the
Associated Press and others. Thanks to his seemingly ubiquitous
presence in the streets and the images of chaos in which he's
participated, "Riot-Dog" is gaining fans quickly.

For one, a "Riot-Dog" fan page on Facebook was on the threshold of
10,000 friends at time of this writing. A Greek Tumblr page dedicated
to "Rebel Dog" features a long series of photos showing Kanellos'
exploits in the midst of recent unrest. He was even the subject of his
own photo feature in The Guardian UK.

Similar posts appeared on Democrat blog network DailyKos, BuzzFeed and
This Blog Rules in recent days.

Then, there's a video uploaded to YouTube on March 11, 2010 that shows
Kanellos fearlessly running up to and harrying riot police atop
motorcycles as they blockade a street, wagging his tail the whole way.
His portion runs from 1:30 - 2:20 in the clip below.

He is also the source of several musical tributes on YouTube,
featuring loads of Greek text and numerous photos of Kanellos plunging
headlong into the contested streets.

"This dog has been in the streets more times than the entire
'progressive' movement combined," Kos blogger RenderQT scoffed, noting
his photo spread was a tribute to "the Greek Dog of Protest."

"Can we get a little less fiscal reporting (boring) and a little more
Riot Dog reporting"? BuzzFeed added.


There is some reasonable doubt about Kanellos's identity, with some
suggesting that images circulating of the "Riot-Dog" are actually two
different yet similar-looking pooches with the same proclivities for
protest.

"While one can't be certain that it's the same pooch at every protest
— Athens is something of a magnet for street-savvy stray dogs — this
mutt does sport a distinctive blue collar, which may indicate that,
while he's a stray, he's also current on his shots," noted Yahoo News
contributor Brett Michael Dykes.

With the country in urgent need of nine billion euros (11 billion
dollars) by May 19 to service existing debt, Greek PM George
Papandreou reported with relief early Saturday that rescue funds would
arrive within days.

"In the following days, Greece will receive the first tranche of the
110 billion euros from the EU and the IMF," Papandreou said after an
emergency late-night summit of euro leaders in Brussels.

"This will allow us to implement our (austerity) programme and our
reforms," he underlined.

Politics nonwithstanding, the symbol of Kanellos, the Greek dog of
protest -- be he one stray or two -- has given an entirely new meaning
to the act of "hounding" the police.
[interesting comment:]

  Unlike the US progressive movement Riot Dog Kanellos (and his
avatars) isn't all bark, no bite.

  President Obama is decrying iPods and XBoxes instead of his own
failures to stop mimicking Bush at every turn.

  He decries the educational gaps between blacks and other
Americans yet has a hack from Chicago heading his Education Department
and is doing little to improve the living conditions of the majority
of black Americans or working-class or poor Americans for that matter,
instead pushing neoliberal options at every turn. Wall Street wins,
black people and everyone else suffers.

  He promised to bring the troops home from Iraq and close Gitmo,
to have a public insurance health option and to fight against offshore
drilling, to bring down unemployment and stop the volcano of
foreclosures. Instead he's done the exact opposite on every turn.

  The problem isn't technology, it's apathy and two major parties
that betray the people at every turn. Maybe all of us, including
Oba

Re: [Marxism] Lenin's Tomb on the British vote

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Geez, that's disappointing.  When push comes to shove, it appears comrade 
Seymour can do no better than run back into Labor's arms.

I wish I could say "unbelievable,"  but it's all too believable.

Exactly how does even a mercilessly critical support of a Lib-Lab coalition 
differ from a popular front?

Guess what, only in that it would be less left-wing; less popular, and more 
of a front.

- Original Message - 
From: "Louis Proyect"  



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[Marxism] Arizona boycotting: let's get on with it

2010-05-09 Thread Patrick Bond

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(The letter below is part of what I gather many academics, cultural 
workers and athletes are doing: boycotting all things associated with 
the state of Arizona. This was one of the crucial battlegrounds in the 
struggle against apartheid.)

From: Patrick Bond [bo...@ukzn.ac.za]
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 7:08 PM
To: 
Subject: Re:  tenure review

Dear ,

This is just to let you know that I'm absolutely delighted to play a 
role in supporting Arizona State University's assessment of faculty, 
especially in your important school, but will have to delay playing a 
part in the requested tenure review.

I hope you can let the relevant authorities know, that the day that 
SB-1070 is repealed, I will be in a position to provide voluntary 
intellectual labor to Arizona's higher education system. But not a day 
before, I'm very sorry to say.

Yours,
Patrick Bond
Senior Professor, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa

 >  wrote:
 >  
 > Dear Professor Bond,
 >
 > I am writing to ask if you would be willing to review Professor
 > 's tenure file this summer. I would send you her
 > material in late May (her book and other publications, vitae,
 > personal statement) and you would have most of the summer to conduct
 > the review. I am attaching a copy of her vitae as of Feb. if you
 > wish to review it; she plans to have a couple of other articles
 > under review by late May as well. Please let me know if you would be
 > able to conduct this review. Thank you very much!
 >
 > 

***

La Opinion Calls for National Boycott of Arizona

La Opinion Editorial
April 24, 2010

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=985c78d066318e82c7477d75a0c87913

Espanol:
http://www.impre.com/laopinion/opinion/2010/4/24/diga-no-a-arizona-184974-1.html

An editorial in the Los Angeles Spanish-language daily
La Opinion calls for a national boycott of Arizona
after the governor signed the nation's toughest bill on
illegal immigration into law on Friday. The new law
makes it a misdemeanor to be undocumented, and requires
police to question people about their immigration
status if the police officers have "reasonable
suspicion" that they are in the country illegally.
While lawyers challenge the law's constitutionality in
the courts, editors of La Opinion call on U.S.
residents to take direct action by boycotting all goods
and services from Arizona.

We call on those who believe in the U.S. Constitution
to boycott the state of Arizona.

The anti-immigrant bill signed yesterday in Arizona is
a violation of our right to be free from police
harassment based on the way we look.

SB 1070 requires the police to question people about
their immigration status if they suspect they are in
the U.S. illegally, without any objective basis for
that suspicion. This gives free reign to racial
profiling and the discriminatory actions that will
ensue for being -or appearing to be- Latino.

The law is a violation of basic civil rights. It also
wrongfully asserts that states can set their own
immigration policy when that is the exclusive
jurisdiction of the federal government.

The Arizona law is based on inflammatory depictions of
the undocumented -repeated by Governor Jan Brewer when
she signed the executive order- to justify such a
repressive piece of legislation.

There are two ways to fight this law: one is in the
courts and the other is through direct action. As for
the first, lawyers will be filing lawsuits challenging
the law's constitutionality. The latter, direct action,
is a call to boycott the state of Arizona.

We express our outrage in the face of this abuse of
power. We call for a boycott of all goods and services
from Arizona and pledge to avoid tourism in the state
as well. Let's send a signal of our disgust with an
arrogant state government that asserts powers it does
not have in order to persecute a minority population.

In the name of protecting the people, this law puts the
public's safety in jeopardy. The undocumented will be
too afraid to report a crime for fear of being
deported. Police departments across the country (who
incidentally oppose this law) understand the need for
the public to have trust in authorities so they can
fulfill their mission.

Racial profiling is unacceptable. It is a serious
mistake to think that you can tell an undocumented
person by the way he or she looks. This law is a
product of ignorance and an act of irresponsibility.
Say "No" to Arizona.

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Re: [Marxism] Lenin's Tomb on the British vote

2010-05-09 Thread Einde O'Callaghan

==
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==


On 09.05.10 21:38, S. Artesian wrote:
> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> Geez, that's disappointing.  When push comes to shove, it appears comrade
> Seymour can do no better than run back into Labor's arms.
>
> I wish I could say "unbelievable,"  but it's all too believable.
>
> Exactly how does even a mercilessly critical support of a Lib-Lab coalition
> differ from a popular front?
>
> Guess what, only in that it would be less left-wing; less popular, and more
> of a front.
>
On my reading of the article I don't think Richard is arguing for 
support for a Lib-Lab coalition but rather discussing out loud which of 
the obnoxious alternatives on offer would provide the most favourable 
circumstances for building resistance to the cuts that the ruling class 
will inevitably try to impose to make the workers pay for the bosses' 
crisis.

But I'm sure that Richard will probably be able to defend himself better 
than I can.

Einde O'Callaghan


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Re: [Marxism] Lenin's Tomb on the British vote

2010-05-09 Thread Bhaskar Sunkara

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Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do
not make it under self-selected circumstances accepting the organic
links that the Labour Party has to the British working class and the fact
that they are the lesser evil for British workers is empirical fact.

On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 3:38 PM, S. Artesian  wrote:

>
> Geez, that's disappointing.  When push comes to shove, it appears comrade
> Seymour can do no better than run back into Labor's arms.
>
> I wish I could say "unbelievable,"  but it's all too believable.
>
> Exactly how does even a mercilessly critical support of a Lib-Lab coalition
> differ from a popular front?
>
> Guess what, only in that it would be less left-wing; less popular, and more
>  of a front.

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Re: [Marxism] Is this a Trotskyist list? Or, what are its limits?

2010-05-09 Thread Joaquín Bustelo

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==


Grover Furr asks: "Is this a Trotskyist list? or, a list for the 
discussion of Trotskyism?"

No this isn't a "Trotskyist" list. There are many who consider 
themselves Trotskyists, and others (like me) who, even though trained in 
that tradition and still influenced by it, nevertheless don't describe 
themselves that way. But I suspect the majority of subscribers, and the 
overwhelming majority of those younger than, say, fifty or so, have 
never had any special connection to Trotskyism or Trotskyist groups.

In my case, if I had to describe myself in those terms I'd  say I was 
more of a Fidelista, not in the sense that I support guerrilla war, but 
that I think history shows that starting with the consolidation of 
capitalism as a genuinely world-wide system, at the end of the 19ht 
Century, but especially since the end of the Second World War, the 
character and locus of the struggle against the system has shifted, away 
from the working classes of the more developed countries to the working 
people of the Third World.

The Cuban Revolution and the ideas expressed by Fidel (but not only -- 
Ché was also important in my development) represent and symbolize this 
change.

I explored part of the implications of this in a decade-old post (under 
a different name) "On Trotskyism, and why I am not a 'Trotskyist.'" It 
can be found in the list archives here: 
http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2000w40/msg00158.htm. I 
think it is fair to say at that time the proportion of Trotskyists was 
higher on the list.

Louis might give you further guidance, but in general what's been 
banned on this list for the more than 10 years I have been on it is 
restarting the great Trotsky-Stalin debates. Because, basically, it is 
an almost religious dispute that ends up in flame wars and because the 
genuine political issues involved will find, over time, current 
expressions that are much more accessible to all.

Joaquín


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Re: [Marxism] Arizona boycotting: let's get on with it

2010-05-09 Thread Michael Perelman

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I'm not sure that I would go along with Patrick's letter.  I soon the 
request came because a progressive faculty member wanted support from some 
eminent figure.

I'm not sure if I were a progressive faculty member in Arizona that I would 
be doing anyone a favor by resigning.

Wouldn't it make more sense to support progressive forces in the state?  
Isn't it likely that the person's replacement would be someone who might 
support such racist legislation?

At the same time, Patrick probably heard similar thoughts during the South 
African boycott.  Of course, that country still has not enjoyed much 
benefit from the boycott's success.

My main point is to draw out the thoughts of other people.

 --
Michael Perelman Economics 
Department California State University
Chico, CA 95929

Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
michaelperelman.wordpress.com


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Re: [Marxism] Lenin's Tomb on the British vote

==
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Come on comrade, we are not talking about "acceptance" of links, we are 
talking about reproducing the subjugation of the British working class to 
British capital through the mechanism, the mediation, of the Labor Party.

That's not history being made, that's a repetition compulsion

Lesser evilism is, at core, nothing but voluntarism all dressed up with no 
place to go.

- Original Message - 
From: "Bhaskar Sunkara"  



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Re: [Marxism] Lenin's Tomb on the British vote

2010-05-09 Thread Bhaskar Sunkara

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==

The standpoint that Richard is writing from seems to be 1) what option would
cause the least distress for British workers and 2) how to organize the
protest movement against cut backs, I don't see how either of these
represent an endorsement of the status quo.

On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 5:09 PM, S. Artesian  wrote:

Come on comrade, we are not talking about "acceptance" of links, we are
> talking about reproducing the subjugation of the British working class to
> British capital through the mechanism, the mediation, of the Labor Party.
>

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Re: [Marxism] Lenin's Tomb on the British vote

==
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How does supporting something that doesn't even measure up to the politics, 
the level of struggle of the popular front amount to favorable circumstance 
for building resistance to cuts?


- Original Message - 
From: "Einde O'Callaghan" .net 



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Re: [Marxism] Lenin's Tomb on the British vote

==
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Right, they don't amount to an endorsement of the status quo, they amount to 
endorsing a more gradual impoverishment of the British workers.  They amount 
to in practical terms, endorsing the best possible worsening of conditions.

Lets call it what it is.  Retreat, capitulation, without even engaging the 
battle-- it is the endorsement of the best possible worsening of conditions.
- Original Message - 
From: "Bhaskar Sunkara" 
To: "David Schanoes" 
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Lenin's Tomb on the British vote


> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> The standpoint that Richard is writing from seems to be 1) what option 
> would
> cause the least distress for British workers and 2) how to organize the
> protest movement against cut backs, I don't see how either of these
> represent an endorsement of the status quo.
>
> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 5:09 PM, S. Artesian  
> wrote:
>
> Come on comrade, we are not talking about "acceptance" of links, we are
>> talking about reproducing the subjugation of the British working class to
>> British capital through the mechanism, the mediation, of the Labor Party.
>>
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu
> Set your options at: 
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/sartesian%40earthlink.net 



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Re: [Marxism] Arizona boycotting: let's get on with it

2010-05-09 Thread Joseph Catron

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==

For reasons including those Michael describes, I am always reluctant to
support boycotts of state actors, and never do so until asked by substantial
organized constituencies within the affected states themselves (the African
National Congress, Palestinian civil society). To date, I am unaware of any
such request originating from Arizona.

On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Michael Perelman
wrote:

Wouldn't it make more sense to support progressive forces in the state?
> Isn't it likely that the person's replacement would be someone who might
> support such racist legislation?
>
> At the same time, Patrick probably heard similar thoughts during the South
> African boycott.  Of course, that country still has not enjoyed much
> benefit from the boycott's success.
>

-- 
"Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen
lytlað."

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Re: [Marxism] Is this a Trotskyist list? Or, what are its limits?

2010-05-09 Thread Brett Murphy

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Not as far as I know but I agree with Trotsky.


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Re: [Marxism] Lenin's Tomb on the British vote

2010-05-09 Thread Einde O'Callaghan

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==


On 09.05.10 23:29, S. Artesian wrote:
>
> How does supporting something that doesn't even measure up to the politics,
> the level of struggle of the popular front amount to favorable circumstance
> for building resistance to cuts?
>
I'm sorry - I don't see how discussing what possibilities exist for 
organising resistance amounts to endorsement of any of the possible 
government combinations. Whether a Lib-Lab would be the best option for 
organising resistancve is something that I can't judge as I haven't been 
in Britain for over a decade and can't really judge what the state of 
the class is. But I still think that it is legitimate for lefitsts 
discuss which bourgeois government would offer the best constellation 
for organising resistance without being accused of being supporters of 
one of these constellations.

Einde O'Callaghan

Einde O'Callaghan


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Re: [Marxism] Arizona boycotting: let's get on with it

==
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On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Joseph Catron  wrote:

> For reasons including those Michael describes, I am always reluctant to
> support boycotts of state actors, and never do so until asked by substantial
> organized constituencies within the affected states themselves (the African
> National Congress, Palestinian civil society). To date, I am unaware of any
> such request originating from Arizona.

Someone's not paying attention. This is just the tip of the spear:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/07/us/07immig.html?ref=politics

Latino Groups Urge Boycott of Arizona Over New Law
By JULIA PRESTON
Published: May 6, 2010

Several large Latino and civil rights organizations on Thursday
announced a business boycott of Arizona, saying that a tough
anti-illegal immigration law there would lead to racial profiling and
wrongful arrests.

The boycott call was led by the National Council of La Raza, or
N.C.L.R., one of the nation’s biggest Latino groups, and was joined by
the League of United Latin American Citizens and the National Puerto
Rican Coalition. The groups said they would ask members and supporters
to refrain from planning conventions or conferences in Arizona and
from buying goods produced in the state.

“The law is so extreme, and its proponents appear so immune to an
appeal to reason, nothing short of these extraordinary measures is
required,” Janet Murguía, the president of N.C.L.R., said Thursday at
a news conference in Washington.

The organizations said they would collect signatures on a pledge
committing supporters to pressure corporations to stop doing business
with Arizona. Also participating were the Service Employees
International Union, the United Food and Commercial Workers union, and
the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, a coalition of
about 200 groups including African-American and Jewish organizations.

The Arizona law would require the state and local police to question
people about their immigration status based on a “reasonable
suspicion” that they might be illegal immigrants. Adopted on April 23,
the law has not yet taken effect and is facing legal challenges.

Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, sent a letter on
Thursday to Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona, asking her to call on the
Legislature to delay the new law for one year, to give Congress time
to enact an immigration overhaul. He also asked Ms. Brewer, a
Republican, to help raise support among Congressional Republicans for
the overhaul.

Ms. Brewer has said the state was forced to act because the federal
government failed to control illegal immigration. Mr. Schumer is the
main author of a proposal offered last week by Democrats, which would
increase spending for border security and open a path to legal status
for millions of illegal immigrants.

In Los Angeles, the police said they arrested more than a dozen
protesters who chained themselves together on Thursday and blocked
traffic in front of a federal immigration detention center downtown to
protest the Arizona law.

In Phoenix, Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County said officers
arrested 24 immigrants in a raid Thursday morning on a local company,
Lasermasters, accusing them of felony identity theft for working with
false documents.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/96457-seiu-announces-arizona-boycott

SEIU announces Arizona boycott
By Eric Zimmermann - 05/06/10 11:53 AM ET

One of the nation's biggest labor organizations announced today it
will boycott Arizona.

The Service Employees International Union (SEIU) said its 2.2 million
members will not attend any meetings or conventions in Arizona as long
as the new immigration law is in place.

“On behalf of working families and the more than 8 million residents
of Arizona, we will not back down until the Arizona state legislature,
the courts or the Federal Government invalidates this dangerous and
discriminatory law," said Eliseo Medina, SEIU Executive Vice
President.

SEIU joins other civil rights groups, including National Council of La
Raza, in boycotting the state.

Tourism is a significant part of Arizona's economy, and boycotters
hope that staying out of the state will pressure the legislature to
repeal the law.

Rep. Raul Grijalva (D-Ariz.), chairman of the Congressional
Progressive Caucus, has urged organizations not to hold meetings or
conferences in his state.

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Re: [Marxism] Is this a Trotskyist list? Or, what are its limits?

2010-05-09 Thread Shane Mage

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==

On May 9, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Joaquín Bustelo wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> Grover Furr asks: "Is this a Trotskyist list? or, a list for the
> discussion of Trotskyism?"
>
>   No this isn't a "Trotskyist" list. There are many who consider
> themselves Trotskyists, and others (like me) who, even though  
> trained in
> that tradition and still influenced by it, nevertheless don't describe
> themselves that way.

For my part, I would rather be termed a "Trotskyite" (accepting  
Trotsky as a primary historical/political/intellectual source) but not  
a "Trotskyist" (identifying with any of the organizational  
manifestations stemming from the abortive "Fourth International").

Shane Mage

"Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64

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Re: [Marxism] Arizona boycotting: let's get on with it

2010-05-09 Thread Joseph Catron

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On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Greg McDonald  wrote:

Someone's not paying attention. This is just the tip of the spear:
>

Those groups are all either supporting or implementing a targeted boycott of
Arizona's tourism industry. That's a far cry from the kind of total
cultural/economic/educational embargo faced by South Africa, which a number
of us advocate for Israel, and which Patrick and others seem to support for
Arizona. And as organized constituencies go, they're a few notches below the
ANC, which could legitimately claim to represent the aspirations of the
South African majority, or this:

http://www.bdsmovement.net/?q=node/52

By way of full disclosure, I tend to think that the selective outrage over
Arizona's SB1070 is a terrible idea. By focusing all of its ire on one state
and pretending that a particular law passed by its legislature is somehow
exceptional, the immigrant rights movement gives a free pass to too many
other parties, like that Obama fellow for whom so many of us voted:

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/04/30

-- 
"Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen
lytlað."

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Re: [Marxism] Arizona boycotting: let's get on with it