Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
las [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are people on the list that insist that earbuds cost more to make then a comparable pair of headphones. Now that might be true. But so far no one has been able to document what they are saying. They are making an assumption as far as I am concerned until a headphone/earbud manufacture comes on here as either proves them wrong or right. And I doubt that is likely to happen. Larry, I've pointed out (twice now) that I've read comments from actual headphone designers and manufacturers stating that it costs more to make good earbuds. HeadRoom.com, who know more about headphones than any of us on this list, say it on their web site (they used to, at least -- I didn't look to see if they still do). And as Rat pointed out, looking at prices on earbuds vs. "standard" headphones, the standard ones cost much, much less. It think that the combination of those three things is pretty convincing evidence. I'm pretty sure the correct answer is that Americans in general prefer headphones. I don't disagree with you there ;-) Unless you over pay for them, the quality of earbuds peak rapidly. They can go just so far with the technology. Headphones do not have the design constraints. Which is why they are cheaper to make ;-) It's like Bose and their little cubes and subwoofer systems. They really don't sound that good. You may think they do until you put them up against a good pair of Polks. Boy, do I agree with you there... - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As an aside, even though making wafers smaller reduces materials cost, the cost of etching increases as the size of the wafer decreases. The point of cutting them smaller is to increase speed, not reduce cost. Wrong, the wafer size stays the same. It's the die size that gets smaller. The cost of etching (which is only one of the many possible processes), doping etc, stays the same. Cheers, Ralph - getting off topic -- === Ralph SmeetsFunctional Verification Centre Of Competence - CMG Voice: (+33) (0)4 76 58 44 46 STMicroelectronics Fax:(+33) (0)4 76 58 40 11 5, chem de la Dhuy Mobile: (+33) (0)6 82 66 62 70 38240 MEYLAN E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FRANCE === "For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the powers of our imagination: We learned to talk." -- Stephen Hawking, later used by Pink Floyd -- === - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
Ralph, your not off topic. The topic is why Sony sells packages headphones instead of earbuds in the US. There are people on the list that insist that earbuds cost more to make then a comparable pair of headphones. Now that might be true. But so far no one has been able to document what they are saying. They are making an assumption as far as I am concerned until a headphone/earbud manufacture comes on here as either proves them wrong or right. And I doubt that is likely to happen. I'm pretty sure the correct answer is that Americans in general prefer headphones. Earbuds were released with cheap Walkman (tape players) by Sony. When Sony came out with the first portable CD player it included a pair of fine quality headphones. For the price they were charging back then, they could have just well included earbuds. But they wanted to present this entire package as high end. Unless you over pay for them, the quality of earbuds peak rapidly. They can go just so far with the technology. Headphones do not have the design constraints. It's like Bose and their little cubes and subwoofer systems. They really don't sound that good. You may think they do until you put them up against a good pair of Polks. Now I'm going to get off of the topic for a second. I had always thought how great Infinity speakers were. But someone insisted that Polks were better (we're talking high end-not small speakers). So I compared them. I was so surprised to hear how much better the Polk towers sounded compared to the Infinity. Regards, Larry Ralph Smeets wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As an aside, even though making wafers smaller reduces materials cost, the cost of etching increases as the size of the wafer decreases. The point of cutting them smaller is to increase speed, not reduce cost. Wrong, the wafer size stays the same. It's the die size that gets smaller. The cost of etching (which is only one of the many possible processes), doping etc, stays the same. Cheers, Ralph - getting off topic -- === Ralph SmeetsFunctional Verification Centre Of Competence - CMG Voice: (+33) (0)4 76 58 44 46 STMicroelectronics Fax:(+33) (0)4 76 58 40 11 5, chem de la Dhuy Mobile: (+33) (0)6 82 66 62 70 38240 MEYLAN E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FRANCE === "For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the powers of our imagination: We learned to talk." -- Stephen Hawking, later used by Pink Floyd -- === - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
* las [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, 19 Jul 2000 | Now that might be true. But so far no one has been able to document what | they are saying. Look at any audio supply catalog. Look at Sennheiser's catalog. Look at Sony's. Compare specs and prices. See for yourself. Earbuds cost more than headphones for equivalent audio quality. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
On 17 Jul 2000, at 17:27, Alexander Dietrich wrote: Sorry, but that's just not true. I don't know if american headphones are built differently, but riding Hamburg's subway I'm always amazed at how loud people can turn their earbuds and NOT have their eyes come out bleeding. I tried and turned my own volume up until it started to hurt, but when I took my earbuds out I could hear nothing. So what does this tell us ? Buy stock in hearing-aid companies. That's terrifying! I prefer earbuds simply because it's physically impossible for me to annoy others with them. I can't imagine the pressure those people are putting on their eardrums! - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
* las [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Mon, 17 Jul 2000 | B but possibly also AG. Unless you are an executive at one of the | companies that manufactures both headphones and earbuds, there is know way to | know with perfect certainty that it cost more to make earbuds. Sure we can. We don't know how much different, and we can make some educated guesses. Earbuds cost more for equivalent sound quality for the simple reason that everything is smaller. Reducing size increases cost. That's basic manufacturing math. | In a way you are comparing apples and oranges. That's because there are | limitations as to how good you can make earbuds. At a certain point they | become as good as they can get. But the whole thing is so subjective. Yeah, but that point has a price point of around $80 retail. | If you took a dozen people and had a dozen pair of earbuds and asked each | person to audition them (using the same exact music music source and | reproductive system) you would get some interesting results. As if you wouldn't get similar results with the kind of crappy headphones that are bundled with portables. And that still doesn't change the fact that earbuds cost more to make than equivalent headphones. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * las [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Mon, 17 Jul 2000 | B but possibly also AG. Unless you are an executive at one of the | companies that manufactures both headphones and earbuds, there is know way to | know with perfect certainty that it cost more to make earbuds. Sure we can. We don't know how much different, and we can make some educated guesses. Earbuds cost more for equivalent sound quality for the simple reason that everything is smaller. Reducing size increases cost. That's basic manufacturing math. Ahum give me a break. Reducing size decreases cost... Well, at least in the business I work in. Example: Take a 8" wafer. Take a die-size of 120mm2. An 8" wafer has a surface of: (8"x25.4/2)^2*pi=32430mm^2. You can fit about 270 times the 120mm2 dies in it, but you loose all the dies that are on the edges. Which results in about 37 (8"*25.4/SQR(120))*2), dies that aren't usable.. Ie, net you have 233 dies. Lets take the die-size down to 62mm2 (the result of moving from the 0.25um proces to the 0.18um proces). It will bring the yield to 523, but you loose about 51 (8"*25.4/SQR(62))*2) dies at the edges... Ie, net yiel: 472 Thus making the die almost twice as small, results in a yield that's twice as big. The time and the number of manufacturing steps is the same for each wafer, whether you produce one die or ten. This is the manufacturing cost that stays the same. The net result means that if you make a die small, you've got a higher yield, thus less cost! | If you took a dozen people and had a dozen pair of earbuds and asked each | person to audition them (using the same exact music music source and | reproductive system) you would get some interesting results. As if you wouldn't get similar results with the kind of crappy headphones that are bundled with portables. And that still doesn't change the fact that earbuds cost more to make than equivalent headphones. Fact stays that earbuds or headphones, our 'good friends' at Sony and their co-patriots sells us portables with low-quality earbuds or headphones. In all cases, you're forced to buy some decent earbuds or headphones. Cheers, Ralph - who's been to long a way from this list -- === Ralph SmeetsFunctional Verification Centre Of Competence - CMG Voice: (+33) (0)4 76 58 44 46 STMicroelectronics Fax:(+33) (0)4 76 58 40 11 5, chem de la Dhuy Mobile: (+33) (0)6 82 66 62 70 38240 MEYLAN E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FRANCE === "For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the powers of our imagination: We learned to talk." -- Stephen Hawking, later used by Pink Floyd -- === - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
As an aside, even though making wafers smaller reduces materials cost, the cost of etching increases as the size of the wafer decreases. The point of cutting them smaller is to increase speed, not reduce cost. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === Yeah, I also find it hard to believe that people are playing their earbuds so loud that they annoy people sitting around them. I didn''t think that most earbud/portable combinations could even give off that much volume. Larry "Jeff J. Voeller" wrote: On 17 Jul 2000, at 17:27, Alexander Dietrich wrote: Sorry, but that's just not true. I don't know if american headphones are built differently, but riding Hamburg's subway I'm always amazed at how loud people can turn their earbuds and NOT have their eyes come out bleeding. I tried and turned my own volume up until it started to hurt, but when I took my earbuds out I could hear nothing. So what does this tell us ? Buy stock in hearing-aid companies. That's terrifying! I prefer earbuds simply because it's physically impossible for me to annoy others with them. I can't imagine the pressure those people are putting on their eardrums! - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
InterSil semi conductor company is right where I live. (they used to be RCA then GE then Harris), I can ask them if what you are saying is true. Larry Stainless Steel Rat wrote: As an aside, even though making wafers smaller reduces materials cost, the cost of etching increases as the size of the wafer decreases. The point of cutting them smaller is to increase speed, not reduce cost. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
las [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sony doesn't include earbuds on US model products. Does anyone know why? Because a) they cost more for equivalent audio quality and b) the average American doesn't like them. I'm not sure that "a" is correct. But I believe that "b" is the reason. While it may not be the reason, "a" is most definitely factual... It does cost a lot more to make earbuds that produce sound quality equivalent to large 'phones. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
On 16 Jul 2000, at 23:18, J. Coon wrote: I think the real reason is so the cops can tell if you are driving and listening to MD. As someone who would prefer to ride public transit but can't deal with the people, I think Americans prefer headphones to earbuds because earbuds can't be heard by others but headphones can ruin the morning for an entire busload of strangers. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
Jeff J. Voeller wrote: with the people, I think Americans prefer headphones to earbuds because earbuds can't be heard by others but headphones can ruin the morning for an entire busload of strangers. Sorry, but that's just not true. I don't know if american headphones are built differently, but riding Hamburg's subway I'm always amazed at how loud people can turn their earbuds and NOT have their eyes come out bleeding. I tried and turned my own volume up until it started to hurt, but when I took my earbuds out I could hear nothing. So what does this tell us ? Buy stock in hearing-aid companies. Alexander -- ( Alexander Dietrich | e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
Sorry, but that's just not true. I don't know if american headphones are built differently, but riding Hamburg's subway I'm always amazed at how loud people can turn their earbuds and NOT have their eyes come out bleeding. I tried and turned my own volume up until it started to hurt, but when I took my earbuds out I could hear nothing. So what does this tell us ? Buy stock in hearing-aid companies. I have to agree with you. I don't think that it is a volume thing. A properly designed headphone when on a person's ears should not be giving off loud sounds. Someone made the statement that one reason was because it costs more to make earbuds of equal quality to regular headphones. That's not it either. First of all, before you make a statement like that, you had better have data to back it up. Generally the quality of the listening device should be compatible with the quality of the item purchased. It is not always the case. But the worst thing that a company can do us make a great portable and sell them with poor a sounding listening device. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Getting back to the "it costs' more argument. I fail to see the logic in that. Americans pay more for their Mini Disc gear then the Japanese do (at least until the internet). It isn't the few dollars more ( if you was said about earbuds costing more then headphones of equal quality) that would stop an American from buying an item. I'm almost 100% sure that the choice of the majority of Americans is headphones and that's the reason. The Japanese are very big on making things as small as possible. Look how they keep trying to make the next generation of MD portables small than then last generation. In the US bigger is better. My 2 cents Larry Alexander -- ( Alexander Dietrich | e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
las wrote: I don't think that it is a volume thing. A properly designed headphone when on a person's ears should not be giving off loud sounds. Except when they open their mouth. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
Hee, Hee. You must be thing of the movie "48 Hours" where Nick Nolte goes to get Eddie Murphy from jail and Murphy is screaming out Roxanne when he has a headset on. Larry "J. Coon" wrote: las wrote: I don't think that it is a volume thing. A properly designed headphone when on a person's ears should not be giving off loud sounds. Except when they open their mouth. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
las [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone made the statement that one reason was because it costs more to make earbuds of equal quality to regular headphones. That's not it either. First of all, before you make a statement like that, you had better have data to back it up. Larry: Just to be clear, are you stating that: a) "It costs more to make earbuds of equal quality to regular headphones" is not the *reason* they don't come with earbuds in the U.S. or b) The statement "It costs more to make earbuds of equal quality to regular headphones" is not true? I first interpreted your comment to mean "b", with which I was about to vehemently disagree grin, but then I realized that you might be saying "a" with which I pretty much agree. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
Dan, B but possibly also AG. Unless you are an executive at one of the companies that manufactures both headphones and earbuds, there is know way to know with perfect certainty that it cost more to make earbuds. In a way you are comparing apples and oranges. That's because there are limitations as to how good you can make earbuds. At a certain point they become as good as they can get. But the whole thing is so subjective. If you took a dozen people and had a dozen pair of earbuds and asked each person to audition them (using the same exact music music source and reproductive system) you would get some interesting results. Most people could probably pick out the real crappy ones (most people not all). But as you got up the ladder, the results would be scattered all over the place with price (or to keep it in your terms, the cost of manufacturing) showing little relationship with regard to which were judged best. (If you were confused about what I wrote before, this should really confuse you, because I'm not even sure what I just wroteG. The same would be true for headphones. Over the years we have had dozens of threads here with everyone having their own best headphones. So you really can't make a blanket statement about it costing more to make a set of earbuds then it would cost to make "equal" sounding headphones. One thing that I am pretty sure of is that many Americans prefer headphones over earbuds. Go to any quality and or well stocked audio supply. Pick one with the largest selection of headphones. You will find many, many to choose from. But I'll bet even in a store that sells a lot of headphones, you are not going to find many different choices in earbuds. I'm talking about the US in the statement that I made above. Americans (not all of course) prefer headphones. Don't ask me why. the only reason that I could give would be on the high end. As I stated before, you reach a point where earbuds peak. But headphones, not being subject to the same size and weight restrictions can go past that peak. So there really is no way to say what you are saying with perfect certainty. Not that I can see from the statements and scenarios I presented above. Personally, I like earbuds. But I must own about 4 or 5 pair and only one or two really satisfy my listening tastes. I have heard some very good headphones. But I never find them as comfortable as some of the earbuds. Thanks, Larry Dan Frakes wrote: las [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone made the statement that one reason was because it costs more to make earbuds of equal quality to regular headphones. That's not it either. First of all, before you make a statement like that, you had better have data to back it up. Larry: Just to be clear, are you stating that: a) "It costs more to make earbuds of equal quality to regular headphones" is not the *reason* they don't come with earbuds in the U.S. or b) The statement "It costs more to make earbuds of equal quality to regular headphones" is not true? I first interpreted your comment to mean "b", with which I was about to vehemently disagree grin, but then I realized that you might be saying "a" with which I pretty much agree. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
Sony doesn't include earbuds on US model products. Does anyone know why? -- | Kenton A. Hoover | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Private Citizen || | Motorcycle Mobile, 1998 BMW R11RT, CA 15B7022 |+1.415.850.5924 | |= http://www.marchordie.org/otr ===| |Everything is chrome in the future!| - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
Americans have bigger ear holes??? earbud won't fit. hehe just kidding. - Original Message - From: "Kenton A. Hoover" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models? Sony doesn't include earbuds on US model products. Does anyone know why? -- | Kenton A. Hoover | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Private Citizen | | | Motorcycle Mobile, 1998 BMW R11RT, CA 15B7022 | +1.415.850.5924 | |= http://www.marchordie.org/otr ===| |Everything is chrome in the future! | - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
* "Kenton A. Hoover" [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sun, 16 Jul 2000 | Sony doesn't include earbuds on US model products. Does anyone know why? Because a) they cost more for equivalent audio quality and b) the average American doesn't like them. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === I'm not sure that "a" is correct. But I believe that "b" is the reason. Larry Stainless Steel Rat wrote: * "Kenton A. Hoover" [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sun, 16 Jul 2000 | Sony doesn't include earbuds on US model products. Does anyone know why? Because a) they cost more for equivalent audio quality and b) the average American doesn't like them. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === I don't know if this is the reason why they don't sell ear buds with there units here, but A lot of people in the US prefer regular headphones. Larry "Kenton A. Hoover" wrote: Sony doesn't include earbuds on US model products. Does anyone know why? -- | Kenton A. Hoover | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Private Citizen || | Motorcycle Mobile, 1998 BMW R11RT, CA 15B7022 |+1.415.850.5924 | |= http://www.marchordie.org/otr ===| |Everything is chrome in the future!| - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Why does Sony not have earbuds on US models?
Taky Cheung wrote: Americans have bigger ear holes??? earbud won't fit. hehe just kidding. Pretty funny Taky. LOL I think the real reason is so the cops can tell if you are driving and listening to MD. Just a guess.. -- Jim Coon Not just another pretty mandolin picker. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If Gibson made cars, would they sound so sweet? My first web page http://www.tir.com/~liteways - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
