[MBZ] Myth or fact? 100 mile W123

[Mitch Haley]

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/2793843960.html

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Re: [MBZ] Myth or fact? 100 mile W123

[Rick Knoble]

Plausible. If so Jaime will be all over it. 

Rick
Sent from my iPhone.

On Feb 16, 2012, at 7:08 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:

> http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/2793843960.html

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[MBZ] OT: airplane footage

[Mitch Haley]

Interesting surface disruptions when you fly in ground effect over water:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7rAUu8djZ4

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Lawn Mowers

[Dan Penoff]

I like this. I used to live right by the Simplicity plant in Wisconsin, where 
you could see them outside testing tractors on a big piece of ground covered in 
grass.

I am going to check out the Snapper guy in town before I commit.

Thanks!

Dan

On Feb 15, 2012, at 8:15 PM, Rick Knoble  wrote:

> 
> On Feb 15, 2012, at 5:00 PM, "Dan Penoff"  wrote:
> 
>> A 21" walk behind.
>> 
>> And no, I'm not interested in something used.  This is one time I'll go with 
>> new for a lot of reasons.
> 
> 
> If I was to purchase a new mower, I would probably purchase a Snapper, if for 
> no other reason than principal. Maybe that's stupid, but I don't thunk so. 
> 
> http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/102/open_snapper.html
> 
> Rick
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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[MBZ] I think this went high.

[Mitch Haley]

"We started it once, but now it won't start, and it's throwing brake codes" (the 
last could easily be just a brake light switch, but who wants to pay $4k for a 
210 that's been sitting for a few years?).


http://search.ebay.com/370584539901

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Re: [MBZ] Myth or fact? 100 mile W123

[Jaime Kopchinski]

I've emailed this guy a few miles and he never responded.  Its often listed
several ads at a time with descriptions that don't make sense.  Its either
a scam or someone who is very confused.

Jaime


On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Rick Knoble  wrote:

> Plausible. If so Jaime will be all over it.
>
> Rick
> Sent from my iPhone.
>
> On Feb 16, 2012, at 7:08 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:
>
> > http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/2793843960.html
>
> ___
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>
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>



-- 
Jaime Kopchinski
http://www.jaimekop.com/
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Re: [MBZ] Myth or fact? 100 mile W123

[Jaime Kopchinski]

er, a few times... not a few miles.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:12 AM, Jaime Kopchinski wrote:

> I've emailed this guy a few miles and he never responded.  Its often
> listed several ads at a time with descriptions that don't make sense.  Its
> either a scam or someone who is very confused.
>
> Jaime
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Rick Knoble wrote:
>
>> Plausible. If so Jaime will be all over it.
>>
>> Rick
>> Sent from my iPhone.
>>
>> On Feb 16, 2012, at 7:08 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:
>>
>> > http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/2793843960.html
>>
>> ___
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>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jaime Kopchinski
> http://www.jaimekop.com/
>
>
>


-- 
Jaime Kopchinski
http://www.jaimekop.com/
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[MBZ] 560SL on CL $6950

[Rich Thomas]

Looks half decent for a reasonable price  
http://charleston.craigslist.org/cto/2854148680.html


--R

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Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107

[Jim Cathey]

Besides the hood ornament (WTF indeed!) what's with the steel wheels 
on a

'77, and the Radio Shack toggle switch next to the gearshift?


And a non-Hirschmann antenna on the wrong side?

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] OT - Lawn Mowers

[Curt Raymond]

For a modest size lot a Snapper rear engine rider is hard to beat. Mine is a 
1965, its been repowered twice. The first was in 1967 after 2 years mowing a 
golf course (well probably not the whole course), then again in 2008 or 2009, I 
forget.

This mower had sat outside (in Maine no less) the better part of 30 years. I 
replaced the motor, aired up the tires, replaced the blade (although I probably 
didn't have to), greased everything I could get grease to, and cut my lawn... 
There are zero rust holes. All the sheet metal is 1/8" thick or better. I don't 
see any reason I should ever buy another mower.

-Curt

Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 19:15:36 -0600
From: Rick Knoble 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Lawn Mowers
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


On Feb 15, 2012, at 5:00 PM, "Dan Penoff"  wrote:

> A 21" walk behind.
> 
> And no, I'm not interested in something used.  This is one time I'll go with 
> new for a lot of reasons.


If I was to purchase a new mower, I would probably purchase a Snapper, if for 
no other reason than principal. Maybe that's stupid, but I don't thunk so. 

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/102/open_snapper.html

Rick
Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage

[G Mann]

Notice the vapor shock wave building just forward of the tail surfaces?
That shock wave in ground effect is roughly 3 times the diameter of the
wing span, so at that low level pass it is just kissing the water surface.
The size of the shock wave increases with speed and air density as well as
the intensity of the wave. As speed approaches Mach [speed of sound at sea
level] the center of the leading edge of the shock wave will shift forward.
At Mach 1 it would be several feet ahead of the aircraft.

Very interesting to watch. Somewhere on Utube there is a video of a jet at
Mach 1, on the deck over water... it's been a long time since I've seen it,
but the shockwave is opening up a trough across the water surface that is
huge, with attendant rollers coming off that.

Amazing what you can do with a fighter jock ego and a $15 million jet and
free fuel, isn't it... ;))

Grant...

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Interesting surface disruptions when you fly in ground effect over water:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=K7rAUu8djZ4
>
> __**_
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>
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Re: [MBZ] 560SL on CL $6950

[Rich Thomas]

oops $6500

--R

On 2/16/12 10:15 AM, Rich Thomas wrote:
Looks half decent for a reasonable price  
http://charleston.craigslist.org/cto/2854148680.html


--R

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Re: [MBZ] Myth or fact? 100 mile W123

[G Mann]

I just sent the individual an email to attempt direct contact.

If the car is "as advertised" with 100 miles only, I will be most
interested, even at the asking price.

The stone is cast, let's see what ripples come to shore.

Grant...

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 6:07 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> http://longisland.craigslist.**org/cto/2793843960.html
>
> __**_
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> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage

[Rich Thomas]

Technically not "shockwaves" as the airplane is nowhere close to the 
speed of sound.  Compression and decompression of the air around the 
surfaces will cause water vapor to condense, which shows up as the fog 
cloud (or ripples as the case might be).  You see that a lot in the 
summer on commercial planes when landing in humid air, a lot of fog will 
appear on the tops of the wings (esp when the flaps drop), and off the 
tips in the vortices, and people get all upset, "the plane is on fire!"


At Mach 1+/- shockwaves will start to appear and then you can really see 
the compression in the humid air.  The shockwave CANNOT go way forward 
of the aircraft as it cannot travel faster than the speed of sound 
(which is why shock waves appear -- the disturbance caused by the 
airplane can only cause the air to compress where it is forced to become 
[super]sonic, which is a local phenomenon) -- they will start on the 
wings (usually on top where the air is forced to go faster over the 
upper surface)  and nose of the plane, and depending on various factors 
will have various angles off these surfaces.  Before that was fully 
understood I believe some WW2 fighters (P-38?) crashed because of loss 
of lift/control when the airflow over the wings went supersonic and 
caused all sorts of problems with lack of lift, control surfaces, etc.


The air in that vid is deflected down due to the circulation induced by 
the wings and that is what is then pushing on the water to make the 
ripples (which brings up a whole 'nuther discussion on what actually 
causes lift on an airplane...).  You get a little boost from flying in 
ground effect, and it can also affect aircraft handling a bit.


I believe the vid you refer to shows a big shock wave forming a big 
"ring" at the front of the fighter, almost vertical since it is just 
barely sonic, and others off other surfaces too, and it is very cool.  I 
have also seen still pics of the same thing, quite beautiful.


--R (who remembers a little bit from all those years spent in aero/astro 
school)


On 2/16/12 10:40 AM, G Mann wrote:

Notice the vapor shock wave building just forward of the tail surfaces?
That shock wave in ground effect is roughly 3 times the diameter of the
wing span, so at that low level pass it is just kissing the water surface.
The size of the shock wave increases with speed and air density as well as
the intensity of the wave. As speed approaches Mach [speed of sound at sea
level] the center of the leading edge of the shock wave will shift forward.
At Mach 1 it would be several feet ahead of the aircraft.

Very interesting to watch. Somewhere on Utube there is a video of a jet at
Mach 1, on the deck over water... it's been a long time since I've seen it,
but the shockwave is opening up a trough across the water surface that is
huge, with attendant rollers coming off that.

Amazing what you can do with a fighter jock ego and a $15 million jet and
free fuel, isn't it... ;))

Grant...

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:


Interesting surface disruptions when you fly in ground effect over water:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=K7rAUu8djZ4

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Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107

[Alex Chamberlain]

> zero
> rust showing.
>

Um...look again at the inside of the right rear fender.  One of the typical
places for cancer to start in a 107. It could be clean everywhere else, but
doubtful.

Alex
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Re: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage

[G Mann]

Technically correct, thank you.

Approaching Mach speed the aerodynamic center of lift [the balance point of
the flying aircraft] shifts forward. Almost all executive jets are speed
limited to 0.89 Mach because of this. As ACL shifts forward the tail
surfaces must respond to that change in center of lift balance point.  At
some speed point the aircraft will go in to what is known as a "Mach tuck"
where the center of lift is so far ahead of the wing the elevator surface
can not counter balance the aircraft and it goes into a 700 MPH forward
tumble and as you may guess airplanes are not stressed to do that, so it
breaks up in flight.

Your days work has just been canceled as a pilot when that happens.. Your
next appointment is ... well permanent..

I believe the 3 aircraft in the video are likely approaching Mach speed in
the passes because of the halo effect around the AC , not the lift
surfaces. Mach speed isn't a set speed, since it changes with air density
and humidity, so it's possible that actual "Mach" for those conditions
could have been say 400 kts.. and the pass was done at 340 or so [not all
that fast for a fighter].  I'll have to look at the video again and see if
afterburners were lit, I don't think they were.

Grant...

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:29 AM, Rich Thomas <
richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:

> Technically not "shockwaves" as the airplane is nowhere close to the speed
> of sound.  Compression and decompression of the air around the surfaces
> will cause water vapor to condense, which shows up as the fog cloud (or
> ripples as the case might be).  You see that a lot in the summer on
> commercial planes when landing in humid air, a lot of fog will appear on
> the tops of the wings (esp when the flaps drop), and off the tips in the
> vortices, and people get all upset, "the plane is on fire!"
>
> At Mach 1+/- shockwaves will start to appear and then you can really see
> the compression in the humid air.  The shockwave CANNOT go way forward of
> the aircraft as it cannot travel faster than the speed of sound (which is
> why shock waves appear -- the disturbance caused by the airplane can only
> cause the air to compress where it is forced to become [super]sonic, which
> is a local phenomenon) -- they will start on the wings (usually on top
> where the air is forced to go faster over the upper surface)  and nose of
> the plane, and depending on various factors will have various angles off
> these surfaces.  Before that was fully understood I believe some WW2
> fighters (P-38?) crashed because of loss of lift/control when the airflow
> over the wings went supersonic and caused all sorts of problems with lack
> of lift, control surfaces, etc.
>
> The air in that vid is deflected down due to the circulation induced by
> the wings and that is what is then pushing on the water to make the ripples
> (which brings up a whole 'nuther discussion on what actually causes lift on
> an airplane...).  You get a little boost from flying in ground effect, and
> it can also affect aircraft handling a bit.
>
> I believe the vid you refer to shows a big shock wave forming a big "ring"
> at the front of the fighter, almost vertical since it is just barely sonic,
> and others off other surfaces too, and it is very cool.  I have also seen
> still pics of the same thing, quite beautiful.
>
> --R (who remembers a little bit from all those years spent in aero/astro
> school)
>
> On 2/16/12 10:40 AM, G Mann wrote:
>
>> Notice the vapor shock wave building just forward of the tail surfaces?
>> That shock wave in ground effect is roughly 3 times the diameter of the
>> wing span, so at that low level pass it is just kissing the water surface.
>> The size of the shock wave increases with speed and air density as well as
>> the intensity of the wave. As speed approaches Mach [speed of sound at sea
>> level] the center of the leading edge of the shock wave will shift
>> forward.
>> At Mach 1 it would be several feet ahead of the aircraft.
>>
>> Very interesting to watch. Somewhere on Utube there is a video of a jet at
>> Mach 1, on the deck over water... it's been a long time since I've seen
>> it,
>> but the shockwave is opening up a trough across the water surface that is
>> huge, with attendant rollers coming off that.
>>
>> Amazing what you can do with a fighter jock ego and a $15 million jet and
>> free fuel, isn't it... ;))
>>
>> Grant...
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:
>>
>>  Interesting surface disruptions when you fly in ground effect over water:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7rAUu8djZ4
>>> 
>>> >
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
>>> To search list archives 
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

Re: [MBZ] OT - Lawn Mowers

[Randy Bennell]

Unless you feel the need to spend $ I don't know why you think you need 
a Honda.
I bought a Troy-Bilt with a Tecumseh 4 stroke engine at least 5 or 6 
years ago. I believe they are just a clone that is sold under a number 
of different brand names.
So far, it has been perfect. I have done nothing apart from changing the 
oil. It starts with a pull of maybe 6 inches on the rope. Push the 
primer a few times when it is cold and it fires right up. Pull the cord 
when it is warm and it always starts on the first pull (which is good as 
it has the bar on the handle that lets it stop every time you let go of 
the handle). Runs good. Lots of power and I suspect, about half the 
price of a Honda.


Randy

On 15/02/2012 5:00 PM, Dan Penoff wrote:

A 21" walk behind.

And no, I'm not interested in something used.  This is one time I'll go with 
new for a lot of reasons.  Lawn Boys, while very good mowers, unless they are 
vintage ones they're no better than a Murray, which is big box store brand name 
junk.

Dan

On Feb 15, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Mitch Haley wrote:


Are you talking a big walk behind, like a zero turn without the back wheels, or a 
20-22" push mower? If the latter, buy a Lawn Boy off Craigslist.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage

[Rich Thomas]

Quite novel explication.  Not sure I would agree as it all depends on 
the configuration of the airplane, wing shape, tail design, etc.  Most 
simply, when lift is lost on the wing (could be due to Mach effects -- 
you can stall an airplane at any airspeed) the airplane generally stalls 
and breaks away and will generally behave badly.  Add into that poor 
control responsiveness due to messed-up airflow over control surfaces 
(again, could be Mach effects) and your day just got more interesting.  
All that other stuff is just complicating the understanding of the basic 
physical problem and I'm not sure it is generally correct (no disrespect 
intended).


It's all about airflow!

--R

On 2/16/12 11:49 AM, G Mann wrote:

Approaching Mach speed the aerodynamic center of lift [the balance point of
the flying aircraft] shifts forward. Almost all executive jets are speed
limited to 0.89 Mach because of this. As ACL shifts forward the tail
surfaces must respond to that change in center of lift balance point.  At
some speed point the aircraft will go in to what is known as a "Mach tuck"
where the center of lift is so far ahead of the wing the elevator surface
can not counter balance the aircraft and it goes into a 700 MPH forward
tumble and as you may guess airplanes are not stressed to do that, so it
breaks up in flight.


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Lawn Mowers

[Dan Penoff]

Honda is the only one out there with a 5 year consumer warranty, for one.

I have a lot of experience with their portable generators, which are probably 
some of the best product on the market.

Dan

On Feb 16, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Randy Bennell  wrote:

> 
> Unless you feel the need to spend $ I don't know why you think you need a 
> Honda.
> I bought a Troy-Bilt with a Tecumseh 4 stroke engine at least 5 or 6 years 
> ago. I believe they are just a clone that is sold under a number of different 
> brand names.
> So far, it has been perfect. I have done nothing apart from changing the oil. 
> It starts with a pull of maybe 6 inches on the rope. Push the primer a few 
> times when it is cold and it fires right up. Pull the cord when it is warm 
> and it always starts on the first pull (which is good as it has the bar on 
> the handle that lets it stop every time you let go of the handle). Runs good. 
> Lots of power and I suspect, about half the price of a Honda.
> 
> Randy
> 
> On 15/02/2012 5:00 PM, Dan Penoff wrote:
>> A 21" walk behind.
>> 
>> And no, I'm not interested in something used.  This is one time I'll go with 
>> new for a lot of reasons.  Lawn Boys, while very good mowers, unless they 
>> are vintage ones they're no better than a Murray, which is big box store 
>> brand name junk.
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
>> On Feb 15, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Mitch Haley wrote:
>> 
>>> Are you talking a big walk behind, like a zero turn without the back 
>>> wheels, or a 20-22" push mower? If the latter, buy a Lawn Boy off 
>>> Craigslist.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
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> 
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[MBZ] Oil Change Interval

[Larry T]

I don't have access to the OM for a few hours and would like to know the 
official MB Oil Change Interval for my 91 300D.


Anyone know what that si?

Thx
LarryT
91 300D
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Re: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage

[G Mann]

No worries... Just relaying what I learned in 40 + yrs of flying high and
fast.

At Mach, different set of aerodynamics come into play.  You should be able
to find other supporting reference material on what happens to Aerodynamic
Center of Lift at Mach pressure wave.

One reason the P51 could never break Mach was the straight wing... after
the swept wing was put into use Mach threshold was "useful" ..instead of
distructive..

Mach Tuck is a normal term for exceeding the altitude and speed design
envelope because the aircraft will pitch nose down and tumble in a forward
roll.  The center of lift moves ahead of the wing and elevator forces can
not counter act that with sufficent force to keep nose up attitude... The
aircraft does a literal "tuck and roll" at that point recovery is rare
and violent... if you can imagine doing an end for end roll at 700 mph..
the G force alone is deadly, plus structure design limits are quickly
exceeded..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_tuck

You may find this rather simplified explanation helpful.. there are more
involved ones available should you choose to pursue it at the doctoral
level of flight physics.

Grant...

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Rich Thomas <
richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:

> Quite novel explication.  Not sure I would agree as it all depends on the
> configuration of the airplane, wing shape, tail design, etc.  Most simply,
> when lift is lost on the wing (could be due to Mach effects -- you can
> stall an airplane at any airspeed) the airplane generally stalls and breaks
> away and will generally behave badly.  Add into that poor control
> responsiveness due to messed-up airflow over control surfaces (again, could
> be Mach effects) and your day just got more interesting.  All that other
> stuff is just complicating the understanding of the basic physical problem
> and I'm not sure it is generally correct (no disrespect intended).
>
> It's all about airflow!
>
> --R
>
> On 2/16/12 11:49 AM, G Mann wrote:
>
>> Approaching Mach speed the aerodynamic center of lift [the balance point
>> of
>> the flying aircraft] shifts forward. Almost all executive jets are speed
>> limited to 0.89 Mach because of this. As ACL shifts forward the tail
>> surfaces must respond to that change in center of lift balance point.  At
>> some speed point the aircraft will go in to what is known as a "Mach tuck"
>> where the center of lift is so far ahead of the wing the elevator surface
>> can not counter balance the aircraft and it goes into a 700 MPH forward
>> tumble and as you may guess airplanes are not stressed to do that, so it
>> breaks up in flight.
>>
>
> __**_
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives 
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage

[Scott Ritchey]

In Test Pilot School, one of the early exercises is a pitot-static
calibration where you fly past a tower at various speeds at a constant
altitude.  The pilot read the altimeter and airspeed as he came line abreast
the tower; and his partner in the tower simultaneously read the actual
altitude (visually) and the current baro pressure.  There were painted lines
on the lakebed to show the run-in line and line-abreast point.  All these
runs were subsonic (but not by much).  The goal was to map the static
pressure distortion caused by the air flow around the airframe.  

The rule of thumb is you had to be at least 1/2 wingspan above the lakebed
to prevent data corruption from ground effect.  Most guys seldom exceeded a
full wingspan.  Even well into the program, this was a favorite "flight test
technique" for the guys to practice if they got back to base with a little
spare fuel.  I assume this also applied to the gals in later years.

For supersonic calibration (at altitude) a subsonic smoker plane laid down a
smoke trail at fixed pressure altitude; then the test plane accelerated
through the mach with a wing tip in the smoke.  The only excitement was the
transonic effects, which were mild for anything newer than an F-4.  But, the
rejoin was sometimes got interesting.

Scott

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Mitch Haley
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 8:55 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage

Interesting surface disruptions when you fly in ground effect over water:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7rAUu8djZ4

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Re: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage

[Scott Ritchey]

In subsonic flight, the center of lift is about 1/4 cord (wing width) aft of
the leading edge. The center of mass must be forward of this point for
static stability and the horizontal tail must "lift" down. In supersonic
flight, the center of lift moves AFT to about 1/2 cord which requires a lot
more "downward" lift on the horizontal tail to maintain level flight.  If
the horizontal tail cannot produce the required down force, the aircraft
will pitch nose down.  What happens next depends on several factors.

All older subsonic aircraft had fixed tails with movable elevators to
control pitch.  This worked because the pressure from the elevator
propagated forward and acted on the fixed tail surface too.  But supersonic,
the airplane moves faster than the pressure can migrate forward causing
major loss of elevator effectiveness.  And if flow also separates, it can
cause total loss of elevator effectiveness.

Yeager's X-1 had a horizontal tail where the entire surface could be moved
via the trim system, which is the only reason he could control the aircraft
supersonic; he flew it using trim for pitch control

If you look at every supersonic aircraft today, you'll see that the entire
horizontal tail moves under hydraulic power, not just a small elevator at
the trailing edge.

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of G Mann
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 4:03 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage

No worries... Just relaying what I learned in 40 + yrs of flying high and
fast.

At Mach, different set of aerodynamics come into play.  You should be able
to find other supporting reference material on what happens to Aerodynamic
Center of Lift at Mach pressure wave.

One reason the P51 could never break Mach was the straight wing... after
the swept wing was put into use Mach threshold was "useful" ..instead of
distructive..

Mach Tuck is a normal term for exceeding the altitude and speed design
envelope because the aircraft will pitch nose down and tumble in a forward
roll.  The center of lift moves ahead of the wing and elevator forces can
not counter act that with sufficent force to keep nose up attitude... The
aircraft does a literal "tuck and roll" at that point recovery is rare
and violent... if you can imagine doing an end for end roll at 700 mph..
the G force alone is deadly, plus structure design limits are quickly
exceeded..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_tuck

You may find this rather simplified explanation helpful.. there are more
involved ones available should you choose to pursue it at the doctoral
level of flight physics.

Grant...

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Rich Thomas <
richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:

> Quite novel explication.  Not sure I would agree as it all depends on the
> configuration of the airplane, wing shape, tail design, etc.  Most simply,
> when lift is lost on the wing (could be due to Mach effects -- you can
> stall an airplane at any airspeed) the airplane generally stalls and
breaks
> away and will generally behave badly.  Add into that poor control
> responsiveness due to messed-up airflow over control surfaces (again,
could
> be Mach effects) and your day just got more interesting.  All that other
> stuff is just complicating the understanding of the basic physical problem
> and I'm not sure it is generally correct (no disrespect intended).
>
> It's all about airflow!
>
> --R
>
> On 2/16/12 11:49 AM, G Mann wrote:
>
>> Approaching Mach speed the aerodynamic center of lift [the balance point
>> of
>> the flying aircraft] shifts forward. Almost all executive jets are speed
>> limited to 0.89 Mach because of this. As ACL shifts forward the tail
>> surfaces must respond to that change in center of lift balance point.  At
>> some speed point the aircraft will go in to what is known as a "Mach
tuck"
>> where the center of lift is so far ahead of the wing the elevator surface
>> can not counter balance the aircraft and it goes into a 700 MPH forward
>> tumble and as you may guess airplanes are not stressed to do that, so it
>> breaks up in flight.
>>
>
> __**_
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> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>
http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>
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To Unsubscribe or change 

Re: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage

[G Mann]

Thank you Scott.

I reversed the direction of movement in error. You are correct.
As supersonic speed is reached the compressed air ahead of the wing
"stacks" on the leading edge to in effect change the MAC [mean aerodynamic
cord] of the wing, Thus changing Aerodynamic Center of Lift.
Both Wing and Elevator surfaces are affected.

Can I blame old age and a "senior moment" ... ;)))
Grant...

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Scott Ritchey  wrote:

> In subsonic flight, the center of lift is about 1/4 cord (wing width) aft
> of
> the leading edge. The center of mass must be forward of this point for
> static stability and the horizontal tail must "lift" down. In supersonic
> flight, the center of lift moves AFT to about 1/2 cord which requires a lot
> more "downward" lift on the horizontal tail to maintain level flight.  If
> the horizontal tail cannot produce the required down force, the aircraft
> will pitch nose down.  What happens next depends on several factors.
>
> All older subsonic aircraft had fixed tails with movable elevators to
> control pitch.  This worked because the pressure from the elevator
> propagated forward and acted on the fixed tail surface too.  But
> supersonic,
> the airplane moves faster than the pressure can migrate forward causing
> major loss of elevator effectiveness.  And if flow also separates, it can
> cause total loss of elevator effectiveness.
>
> Yeager's X-1 had a horizontal tail where the entire surface could be moved
> via the trim system, which is the only reason he could control the aircraft
> supersonic; he flew it using trim for pitch control
>
> If you look at every supersonic aircraft today, you'll see that the entire
> horizontal tail moves under hydraulic power, not just a small elevator at
> the trailing edge.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of G Mann
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 4:03 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage
>
> No worries... Just relaying what I learned in 40 + yrs of flying high and
> fast.
>
> At Mach, different set of aerodynamics come into play.  You should be able
> to find other supporting reference material on what happens to Aerodynamic
> Center of Lift at Mach pressure wave.
>
> One reason the P51 could never break Mach was the straight wing... after
> the swept wing was put into use Mach threshold was "useful" ..instead of
> distructive..
>
> Mach Tuck is a normal term for exceeding the altitude and speed design
> envelope because the aircraft will pitch nose down and tumble in a forward
> roll.  The center of lift moves ahead of the wing and elevator forces can
> not counter act that with sufficent force to keep nose up attitude... The
> aircraft does a literal "tuck and roll" at that point recovery is rare
> and violent... if you can imagine doing an end for end roll at 700 mph..
> the G force alone is deadly, plus structure design limits are quickly
> exceeded..
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_tuck
>
> You may find this rather simplified explanation helpful.. there are more
> involved ones available should you choose to pursue it at the doctoral
> level of flight physics.
>
> Grant...
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Rich Thomas <
> richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:
>
> > Quite novel explication.  Not sure I would agree as it all depends on the
> > configuration of the airplane, wing shape, tail design, etc.  Most
> simply,
> > when lift is lost on the wing (could be due to Mach effects -- you can
> > stall an airplane at any airspeed) the airplane generally stalls and
> breaks
> > away and will generally behave badly.  Add into that poor control
> > responsiveness due to messed-up airflow over control surfaces (again,
> could
> > be Mach effects) and your day just got more interesting.  All that other
> > stuff is just complicating the understanding of the basic physical
> problem
> > and I'm not sure it is generally correct (no disrespect intended).
> >
> > It's all about airflow!
> >
> > --R
> >
> > On 2/16/12 11:49 AM, G Mann wrote:
> >
> >> Approaching Mach speed the aerodynamic center of lift [the balance point
> >> of
> >> the flying aircraft] shifts forward. Almost all executive jets are speed
> >> limited to 0.89 Mach because of this. As ACL shifts forward the tail
> >> surfaces must respond to that change in center of lift balance point.
>  At
> >> some speed point the aircraft will go in to what is known as a "Mach
> tuck"
> >> where the center of lift is so far ahead of the wing the elevator
> surface
> >> can not counter balance the aircraft and it goes into a 700 MPH forward
> >> tumble and as you may guess airplanes are not stressed to do that, so it
> >> breaks up in flight.
> >>
> >
> > __**_
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> > To search list archives
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**a

[MBZ] (no subject)

[John English]

http://www.spinadorsale.com/wp-content/themes/twentyten/photos.php?Sally128.jpeg
  
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Re: [MBZ] (no subject)

[Mitch Haley]

John English wrote:

http://www.spinadorsale.com/wp-content/themes/twentyten/photos.php?Sally128.jpeg



Argh, I can't believe I clicked on that spam.

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Re: [MBZ] (no subject)

[Rick Knoble]

> 
> Argh, I can't believe I clicked on that spam.


And now you have the bug...?

Rick
Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] (no subject)

[Mitch Haley]

Rick Knoble wrote:

Argh, I can't believe I clicked on that spam.



And now you have the bug...?


Just logged back on after a safe mode reboot and Malwarebytes scan, no 
infections found.


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[MBZ] Low Oil Pressure

[clay monroe]

http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/ctd/2838960203.html

Looked at this today.  In the rain, no obvious current leaks, but there is 
evidence of former leaks and rust accumulation in the shelf and passenger 
footwell.  Came from the factory as red, and whoever did the spray to black 
went wild and coated everything well.  Figure POR-15 can handle the interior 
rust.  

The real issues are the transmission having an over-broad neutral.  Park, into 
reverse went well, but neutral remains even when indicating D.  Crank down and 
it goes into drive.  No shift issues on the road.  Checked cold ATF and it was 
over full.  After the test drive, with engine running, stick was dry.

Oil pressure indicator does not peg.  Light off, got pressure close to 3 bar.  
On the drive it fluctuated between two and almost three.  At idle it floats at 
1 bar.  Goes up smoothly under power.  Cold engine oil was full but indication 
of mix with dirty oil, so not a clean drain and fill.  

SO, my take is that the transmission will need some work and there is a problem 
with oil flow.  No obvious burning or blow by out the tail pipe.  Or leaks 
around the engine seals.  What am I missing?




clay 

1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers






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Re: [MBZ] Low Oil Pressure

[WILTON]

Why oh why would somebody paint black a car like this that came from factory 
in its best color - red?


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "clay monroe" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:00 PM
Subject: [MBZ] Low Oil Pressure



http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/ctd/2838960203.html

Looked at this today.  In the rain, no obvious current leaks, but there is 
evidence of former leaks and rust accumulation in the shelf and passenger 
footwell.  Came from the factory as red, and whoever did the spray to 
black went wild and coated everything well.  Figure POR-15 can handle the 
interior rust.


The real issues are the transmission having an over-broad neutral.  Park, 
into reverse went well, but neutral remains even when indicating D.  Crank 
down and it goes into drive.  No shift issues on the road.  Checked cold 
ATF and it was over full.  After the test drive, with engine running, 
stick was dry.


Oil pressure indicator does not peg.  Light off, got pressure close to 3 
bar.  On the drive it fluctuated between two and almost three.  At idle it 
floats at 1 bar.  Goes up smoothly under power.  Cold engine oil was full 
but indication of mix with dirty oil, so not a clean drain and fill.


SO, my take is that the transmission will need some work and there is a 
problem with oil flow.  No obvious burning or blow by out the tail pipe. 
Or leaks around the engine seals.  What am I missing?





clay

1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers






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[MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold startup

[glenn brown]

I've posted a query about this previously but didn't obtain much to look for 
regarding my '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking (white) upon cold 
startup.  After ~ 2 min. warmup, the idle smooths out and the smoking ceases.  
Note: the car does not burn any oil, nor does it lose any coolant and the glow 
plugs and circuit are all OK.  I took the car to a M-B indy in town and they 
suggested possibly low compression, so I had them do a compression check on a 
cold engine and they obtained the following compression check numbers:
#1 Cyl. 430 psi
#2   “445  “
#3   “430  “
#4   “320  “
#5   “320  “
 
This shop said the M-B spec for the maximum pressure deviation between 
cylinders should be no more than 43.51 psi and they question either sticking 
oil rings in #4 & #5 or misadjusted valves.  Since I do my own valve 
adjustments on both my '84 300D and my '85 300TD, I'm convinced the last valve 
adjustment (<1000 mi. ago) is OK and the rough idle and serious smoking issue 
was present when my brother owned the car, but it's easy enough to check the 
valve clearances which I plan on doing tomorrow.  Also note, for those who may 
not remember, at the suggestion of possibly the best M-B mechanic in the Pbgh. 
area, I replaced the valve stem seals on the 300TD in summer 2011.
Any suggestions?
 
G. M. Brown
Brevard, NC
  
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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold startup

[Mitch Haley]

I hope it's not a failing head gasket between 4 and 5.

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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold startup

[Rick Knoble]

White smoke is unburnt fuel. Check the glow plugs. Even if one or two are bad, 
the light may not indicate it. I had the same problem recently.  Rusty will 
price match whoever has the lowest price. Currently that is Rock Auto. Buy all 
five, I had two bad ones, and another went bad a week later. Marshall liked 
Beru plugs, Rusty can probably get those too, but they won't be cheap. 

Rick
Sent from my iPhone.

On Feb 16, 2012, at 5:28 PM, "glenn brown"  wrote:

> 
> I've posted a query about this previously but didn't obtain much to look for 
> regarding my '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking (white) upon cold 
> startup.  After ~ 2 min. warmup, the idle smooths out and the smoking ceases.

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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold startup

[Rick Knoble]

I forgot to say how. Pull the plug off of the glow plug relay that goes to the 
glow plugs. Test for resistance. Bosch glow plugs should read 0.6 ohms or there 
abouts with an accurate meter. Beru will read a little lower (I have Bosch in 
one car, Beru in the other.) Any that read open or over 1 ohm are bad and need 
replaced. 

Rick
Sent from my iPhone.

On Feb 16, 2012, at 5:37 PM, "Rick Knoble"  wrote:

> Check the glow plugs.

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Re: [MBZ] Low Oil Pressure

[clay monroe]

Well, it sort of works better for me.  My nemeses are red cars.  They all end 
up totalled.  Not my doing, somebody always smashes into them.

I am voting that it went black, because the red had oxidized so much and he had 
lots and lots of black.  Smooth and shiny black at this point.  The red is not 
obvious unless you look at the brightwork that has red overspray.

clay


On Feb 16, 2012, at 3:14 PM, WILTON wrote:

> Why oh why would somebody paint black a car like this that came from factory 
> in its best color - red?
> 
> Wilton
> 
> - Original Message - From: "clay monroe" 
> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:00 PM
> Subject: [MBZ] Low Oil Pressure
> 
> 
>> http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/ctd/2838960203.html
>> 
>> Looked at this today.  In the rain, no obvious current leaks, but there is 
>> evidence of former leaks and rust accumulation in the shelf and passenger 
>> footwell.  Came from the factory as red, and whoever did the spray to black 
>> went wild and coated everything well.  Figure POR-15 can handle the interior 
>> rust.
>> 
>> The real issues are the transmission having an over-broad neutral.  Park, 
>> into reverse went well, but neutral remains even when indicating D.  Crank 
>> down and it goes into drive.  No shift issues on the road.  Checked cold ATF 
>> and it was over full.  After the test drive, with engine running, stick was 
>> dry.
>> 
>> Oil pressure indicator does not peg.  Light off, got pressure close to 3 
>> bar.  On the drive it fluctuated between two and almost three.  At idle it 
>> floats at 1 bar.  Goes up smoothly under power.  Cold engine oil was full 
>> but indication of mix with dirty oil, so not a clean drain and fill.
>> 
>> SO, my take is that the transmission will need some work and there is a 
>> problem with oil flow.  No obvious burning or blow by out the tail pipe. Or 
>> leaks around the engine seals.  What am I missing?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> clay
>> 
>> 1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
>> 1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
>> POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold startup

[Hans Neureiter]

Glow plugs.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 5:28 PM, glenn brown  wrote:

>
> I've posted a query about this previously but didn't obtain much to look
> for regarding my '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking (white) upon cold
> startup.  After ~ 2 min. warmup, the idle smooths out and the smoking
> ceases.  Note: the car does not burn any oil, nor does it lose any coolant
> and the glow plugs and circuit are all OK.  I took the car to a M-B indy in
> town and they suggested possibly low compression, so I had them do a
> compression check on a cold engine and they obtained the following
> compression check numbers:
> #1 Cyl. 430 psi
> #2   “445  “
> #3   “430  “
> #4   “320  “
> #5   “320  “
>
> This shop said the M-B spec for the maximum pressure deviation between
> cylinders should be no more than 43.51 psi and they question either
> sticking oil rings in #4 & #5 or misadjusted valves.  Since I do my own
> valve adjustments on both my '84 300D and my '85 300TD, I'm convinced the
> last valve adjustment (<1000 mi. ago) is OK and the rough idle and serious
> smoking issue was present when my brother owned the car, but it's easy
> enough to check the valve clearances which I plan on doing tomorrow.  Also
> note, for those who may not remember, at the suggestion of possibly the
> best M-B mechanic in the Pbgh. area, I replaced the valve stem seals on the
> 300TD in summer 2011.
> Any suggestions?
>
> G. M. Brown
> Brevard, NC
>
> ___
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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-- 
Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX
'82 300SD
'01 VW New Beetle 1.9L TDI
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Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107

[Mountain Man]

SandNigger wrote:
> Looks like the guy was a trucker. Got a big rig hood ornament and the toggle
> switch reads "DO NOT USE CB WITH ANTENNA FULLY EXTENDED."
>

What happened to China?
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT: airplane footage

[Mountain Man]

Grant wrote:
> Amazing what you can do with a fighter jock ego and a $15 million jet and
> free fuel, isn't it... ;))

It doesn't need to be $15 mil or fighter jet.
Any pilot with a small jet plays.  Always.  No doubt.
Like giving a man a Lambo - it happens.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon coldstartup

[glenn brown]

Apparently many on the list don't fully read posts . . . "the glow plugs and 
circuit are all OK."  They all measure 0.5 0.6 ohm using my Fluke 83V VOM.
 
G. M. Brown
Brevard, NC   
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Re: [MBZ] 560SL on CL $6950

[Dan Penoff]

I like. A nice price, depending on the history and mileage.

Only SL I would ever consider owning.

Dan


On Feb 16, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Rich Thomas wrote:

> Looks half decent for a reasonable price  
> http://charleston.craigslist.org/cto/2854148680.html
> 
> --R
> 
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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon coldstartup

[Mountain Man]

Glenn wrote:
> Apparently many on the list don't fully read posts . . . "the glow plugs and 
> circuit are all OK."  They all measure 0.5 0.6 ohm using my Fluke 83V VOM.
>

Not so - not this thread.
Perhaps in previous thread, but... not this thread.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon coldstartup

[Alex Chamberlain]

 >. . "the glow plugs and circuit are all OK.>  They all measure 0.5 0.6
ohm using my Fluke 83V VOM.
>

What about amp draw?

Alex
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Re: [MBZ] Driving and talking

[Rolf]

I use an android app, autoguard, it rolls vid files every 20min and will call 
someone if you are hit. Also tracks location w video. A whopping 1.99 or so.
-- 
please excuse the delay in response, I had to wait for the tape to rewind on my 
commodore 64.

G Mann  wrote:

Google "Dash Camera" and you will find a list of very handy dash or
windshield mounted cameras. Some which have GPS links and date / time
stamps into the record. Price is suprisingly low. Some are on full time,
some can be remotely triggered.. you choose. There are even some that have
both front and back cameras. Most all feed into a memory card so are very
compact.

A member of another board I frequent mounted one and routinely uses it to
record "things of interest" while on the road and then reports them to
police

The camera record is pretty solid. He always gets respectful attention of
his complaints.

Grant...
AZ...

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Rich Thomas <
richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:

> I have become a community agitator in our local realm. I have busted a
> number of deputies who have been exceeding the speed limit, tailgating,
> etc. Easy enough to do by just jotting down the tag number, car type,
> location and time, speed and limit in the location, and taking a pic if you
> have a camera handy, then sending it along to the sheriff and your elected
> officials. I did that once, turned out it was the sheriff's community
> coordinator (a captain now a major in their heirarchy) with whom I had been
> working on getting better enforcement in our area. The sheriff reamed his
> ass and the guy called me about 30min later to apologize for his behavior,
> we had a nice discussion and have been working since, and he has been a lot
> more supportive after his own bust. Now I send my pics to him and he deals
> with it.
>
> I got another one who I think was an FBI type in a plain CV, who was
> texting on the freeway, driving about 45 in a 60 zone and drifting across
> the divider line. Hard to tell as the car had tinted windows but I got a
> pic of him texting while on my side of the white line. I snapped a pic
> with my cell phone (easy to do and not distracting, just hold it over there
> and snap), then I honked my horn, he looks up and sees my truck about a
> foot away, swerves back then accelerated and shot off. I get to the light
> at the end of the freeway, pull up next to him, snap another pic, he is
> looking all agitated... sent those along but never heard back.
>
> I figure these guys are my employees (and yours too) as we citizens pay
> their salaries, so that kind of behavior is unacceptable. And the sheriff
> is an elected official, he likes to keep his bosses happy.
>
> --R
>
> On 1/11/12 12:05 AM, Dieselhead wrote:
>
>> Personally I don't understand it but often laws are made for the absolute
>>> dumbest people and not the average person.
>>> For instance, here it is illegal to talk on a handheld mobile but you
>>> can talk all day on a handsfree/blue tooth or to the passenger sitting next
>>> to you. The only difference being that you are holding a phone to your ear
>>> and driving the car with one hand, (driving a vehicle with one hand is not
>>> illegal).
>>>
>>> Hendrik
>>> who has not been caught yet
>>>
>>
>>
>> Hendrik points out one of the inherent problems of trying to enforce
>> "anti-stupid" laws. "Anti-stupid" laws are in themselves stupid, thus
>> typical legal hypocrisy. They are always "selectively" enforced; another
>> hypocrisy.
>>
>>
>> Speaking of stupid, this is a cop story. Looked in the mirror on a 3
>> lane Interstate, nothing for a mile or so to the rear. Signalled, started
>> to move toward the left lane form the center, looked in the mirror, and
>> there is a black dogde copcar closing fast, and maybe a quarter mile behind
>> me. I was going maybe 65, so this schmuck had to be going at least 120 No
>> lights, no sireen. I got back over in the center lane and this fool goes
>> flying by, then jams on the brakes, as all three lanes in front of me were
>> plugged up.
>>
>> In this state, the law is that unless the cop is "in pursuit" with lights
>> and sireens, they are subject to the same speeds and laws. Of course, this
>> is never enforced. It was a local yocal: suburban town cop.
>>
>> It sure would have been nice to have 3 passengers, one of whom was a
>> state snooper, and one with a video camera. That "might" have been enough
>> to get this idiot at least a slap on the hand.
>>
>>_
**_
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
>> To search list archives 
>> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/;
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com;
>>
>>
>_
**_
> http://

Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon coldstartup

[Mountain Man]

Glenn wrote:
> Apparently many on the list don't fully read posts . . . "the glow plugs and 
> circuit are all OK."  They all measure 0.5 0.6 ohm using my Fluke 83V VOM.
>

You didn't include the numbers in this thread, but yes, you did write
OK...my bad.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Low Oil Pressure

[Jim Cathey]

The real issues are the transmission having an over-broad neutral.


Nylon bushings?

Checked cold ATF and it was over full.  After the test drive, with 
engine running, stick was dry.


Normal, for low fluid.  Needs more ATF.

Oil pressure indicator does not peg.  Light off, got pressure close to 
3 bar.


Sender/gauge can also lie, should be checked.


What am I missing?


$2300?  Don't forget the other SL vulnerabilities.
Rust, primarily.  ATF and shifter bushings is nothing,
if that's it.  ACC/Cruise may be broken.  How are the
sunvisors?  Surprisingly expensive, and the sun eats
them.  Chromed plastic trim pieces on seats?  Upholstery?
Rear window defroster may be failing, the hairline wires
in the glass fail easily.

This car is down in the "just drive it" class, rather than
a garage queen.

We'll probably be driving past that car tomorrow, we're on
our way to Crystal Mtn.  Gotta go around through Enumscratch.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107

[Jim Cathey]

looks like a pretty clean car with zero rust showing.


Look closer!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold

[Curt Raymond]

Would compression rise on a warm engine?

Mobil 1 in the engine? Diesel Purge?

-Curt

Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:28:29 -0500
From: glenn brown 
To: 
Subject: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold
startup
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"


I've posted a query about this previously but didn't obtain much to look for 
regarding my '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking (white) upon cold 
startup.  After ~ 2 min. warmup, the idle smooths out and the smoking ceases.  
Note: the car does not burn any oil, nor does it lose any coolant and the glow 
plugs and circuit are all OK.  I took the car to a M-B indy in town and they 
suggested possibly low compression, so I had them do a compression check on a 
cold engine and they obtained the following compression check numbers:
#1 Cyl. 430 psi
#2   ?445  ?
#3   ?430  ?
#4   ?320  ?
#5   ?320  ?

This shop said the M-B spec for the maximum pressure deviation between 
cylinders should be no more than 43.51 psi and they question either sticking 
oil rings in #4 & #5 or misadjusted valves.  Since I do my own valve 
adjustments on both my '84 300D and my '85 300TD, I'm convinced the last valve 
adjustment (<1000 mi. ago) is OK and the rough idle and serious smoking issue 
was present when my brother owned the car, but it's easy enough to check the 
valve clearances which I plan on doing tomorrow.  Also note, for those who may 
not remember, at the suggestion of possibly the best M-B mechanic in the Pbgh. 
area, I replaced the valve stem seals on the 300TD in summer 2011.
Any suggestions?

G. M. Brown
Brevard, NC

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[MBZ] Tech I don't need

[Mountain Man]

With the modern tech in cars being totally connected everything, data
bus for connectivity, etc - it seems there could be use for
broadcasting codes for repair purposes.  I have no idea how that might
be useful, but similar to onstar the malfunction could be seen prior
to arrival at shop, for whatever reason.  The stupid tech already
broadcasts where the car is located, why not broadcast data regarding
operations and potential system failure issues?  Again, for what
useful benefit, I don't know, but it seems that the broadcast could
include data nobody needs... just because...  Not unlike most of the
other 'tech' in modern cars.  Why do I need to punish a data bus with
road grime, rattle, heat, etc?  It all seems superfluous - I drive a
1984 240D with 3 pedals and crank windows.  I dunno...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold

[Jim Cathey]

Would compression rise on a warm engine?


Yes.  In fact, you're only supposed to measure it on a warm engine!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold startup

[Curt Raymond]

Really? We're not talking crazy big money to begin with. Rusty's gotta eat too.

-Curt

Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:37:05 -0600
From: Rick Knoble 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold
startup
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

White smoke is unburnt fuel. Check the glow plugs. Even if one or two are bad, 
the light may not indicate it. I had the same problem recently.  Rusty will 
price match whoever has the lowest price. Currently that is Rock Auto. Buy all 
five, I had two bad ones, and another went bad a week later. Marshall liked 
Beru plugs, Rusty can probably get those too, but they won't be cheap. 

Rick
Sent from my iPhone.

On Feb 16, 2012, at 5:28 PM, "glenn brown"  wrote:

> 
> I've posted a query about this previously but didn't obtain much to look for 
> regarding my '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking (white) upon cold 
> startup.  After ~ 2 min. warmup, the idle smooths out and the smoking ceases.


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Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107

[Craig]

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 08:41:58 -0800 Alex Chamberlain
 wrote:

> > zero
> > rust showing.
> >
> 
> Um...look again at the inside of the right rear fender.  One of the
> typical places for cancer to start in a 107. It could be clean
> everywhere else, but doubtful.

There is rust in the engine compartment, too.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold startup

[Peter Frederick]

Set the valves to about 0.010 extra clearance and drive for a bit.   
If they were tight, you can get carbon buildup on the stems, keeping  
them from closing properly.  They will go tight again very quickly as  
the carbon wears off, and you still don't have them closing properly.


The other thing I would suspect is a bad head gasket.  Not a huge  
endeavor on a 617, easier than on the 603.


One final possibility is bad spray pattern on #4 and #5, leading to  
carboned up rings.  Good injectors should clear that up.


Peter

On Feb 16, 2012, at 5:28 PM, glenn brown wrote:



I've posted a query about this previously but didn't obtain much to  
look for regarding my '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking  
(white) upon cold startup.  After ~ 2 min. warmup, the idle smooths  
out and the smoking ceases.  Note: the car does not burn any oil,  
nor does it lose any coolant and the glow plugs and circuit are all  
OK.  I took the car to a M-B indy in town and they suggested  
possibly low compression, so I had them do a compression check on a  
cold engine and they obtained the following compression check numbers:

#1 Cyl. 430 psi
#2   “445  “
#3   “430  “
#4   “320  “
#5   “320  “

This shop said the M-B spec for the maximum pressure deviation  
between cylinders should be no more than 43.51 psi and they  
question either sticking oil rings in #4 & #5 or misadjusted  
valves.  Since I do my own valve adjustments on both my '84 300D  
and my '85 300TD, I'm convinced the last valve adjustment (<1000  
mi. ago) is OK and the rough idle and serious smoking issue was  
present when my brother owned the car, but it's easy enough to  
check the valve clearances which I plan on doing tomorrow.  Also  
note, for those who may not remember, at the suggestion of possibly  
the best M-B mechanic in the Pbgh. area, I replaced the valve stem  
seals on the 300TD in summer 2011.

Any suggestions?

G. M. Brown
Brevard, NC

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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon coldstartup

[Rick Knoble]

Guilty as charged.

Rick

 

> From: g_010...@hotmail.com
> 
> Apparently many on the list don't fully read posts . . . "the glow plugs and 
> circuit are all OK."  They all measure 0.5 0.6 ohm using my Fluke 83V VOM.

  
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Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107

[TE]

What do you mean?

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Mountain Man
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:07 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107

SN wrote:
> Looks like the guy was a trucker. Got a big rig hood ornament and the 
> toggle switch reads "DO NOT USE CB WITH ANTENNA FULLY EXTENDED."
>

What happened to China?
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107

[Rich Thomas]

Lots of editing going on here.  I believe he is referring to your 
relocation.


--R

On 2/16/12 11:12 PM, TE wrote:

What do you mean?

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Mountain Man
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:07 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107

SN wrote:

Looks like the guy was a trucker. Got a big rig hood ornament and the
toggle switch reads "DO NOT USE CB WITH ANTENNA FULLY EXTENDED."


What happened to China?
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Tech I don't need

[Rich Thomas]

I believe big bro and big sis have that all under control.  They can get 
the data remotely and can take the box from your vehicle when there is a 
crash (4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America 
is inop in these situations, apparently).


(I do sometimes wonder how the remover would deal with a nice spring 
trap up under the dash, as I heard about people affixing to their 
vehicles when the theft of CB radios was rampant.)


No need to worry though, it is for your own good.

--R

On 2/16/12 9:43 PM, Mountain Man wrote:

With the modern tech in cars being totally connected everything, data
bus for connectivity, etc - it seems there could be use for
broadcasting codes for repair purposes.  I have no idea how that might
be useful, but similar to onstar the malfunction could be seen prior
to arrival at shop, for whatever reason.  The stupid tech already
broadcasts where the car is located, why not broadcast data regarding
operations and potential system failure issues?  Again, for what
useful benefit, I don't know, but it seems that the broadcast could
include data nobody needs... just because...  Not unlike most of the
other 'tech' in modern cars.  Why do I need to punish a data bus with
road grime, rattle, heat, etc?  It all seems superfluous - I drive a
1984 240D with 3 pedals and crank windows.  I dunno...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking upon cold startup

[Dieselhead]

White smoke is unburned fuel, or water.  Since it goes away after a 
couple min. it is 90% liklihood to be unburned fuel.  That indicates 
either low compression, or bad glow plugs or the oddball things, bad 
nozzle, broken prechamber tip, bad headgasket between the two cyl. or 
the like.


Compression tests are always suspect.  on the iron head Diesels, 
valve adjustment is first.  Even if you are sure it is right, check 
it.   Compression should be checked with the engine warm, after a 
good italian tuneup.  Repeatability is the key.   I want to see 
virtually identical results at least 3 times.  A cyl leakdown test is 
more indicative, as it will show WHERE the compression is leaking.


If you have an old injector nozzle holder and an old injector line, 
you can make a rudimentary CLT.  take out the nozzle from the holder, 
and remove the pintle, and reassemble.  This will allow air from the 
top to the outlet of the nozzle.  Cut off an old injector line and 
put one piece on the nozzle holder.  Attach an air hose to the other 
end of the line.


take out one nozzle from the engine, install the CLT, apply air, and 
listen to the intake (air cleaner removed) the exhaust pipe (at the 
back) and the crankcase breather tube for airflow.  If you test the 
good cyls first, you will get an idea for "normal."Higher 
airflows on the weak cyl will tell you if which valve or if the rings 
are leaking.  It is not as precise as a Sun CLT, but you can 
accomplish the same, except the % leakage.


Before you do a CLT, be sure to have new nozzle seals on hand.  They 
are single use.




White smoke is unburnt fuel. Check the glow plugs. Even if one or 
two are bad, the light may not indicate it. I had the same problem 
recently.  Rusty will price match whoever has the lowest price. 
Currently that is Rock Auto. Buy all five, I had two bad ones, and 
another went bad a week later. Marshall liked Beru plugs, Rusty can 
probably get those too, but they won't be cheap.


Rick
Sent from my iPhone.

On Feb 16, 2012, at 5:28 PM, "glenn brown"  wrote:



 > I've posted a query about this previously but didn't obtain much 
to look for regarding my '85 300TD rough idle and serious smoking 
(white) upon cold startup.  After ~ 2 min. warmup, the idle smooths 
out and the smoking ceases.


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Re: [MBZ] airplane footage

[RELNGSON]

All this aeronautical stuff and nobody can spell chord. Makes one wonder.

RLE
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Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107

[TE]

Well it is the MBZ list after all.

I find it hard to believe that Mao has locked himself away in the mountains
for so long that he believes the only place with email is the US. Surely
there was another reason for his question.

TE

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Rich Thomas
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 12:19 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107

Lots of editing going on here.  I believe he is referring to your
relocation.

--R

On 2/16/12 11:12 PM, TE wrote:
> What do you mean?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com 
> [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
> On Behalf Of Mountain Man
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:07 AM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Ebay -WTF w107
>
> SN wrote:
>> Looks like the guy was a trucker. Got a big rig hood ornament and the 
>> toggle switch reads "DO NOT USE CB WITH ANTENNA FULLY EXTENDED."
>>
> What happened to China?
> mao



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Re: [MBZ] airplane footage

[Rich Thomas]

I here your a looser

--R

On 2/16/12 11:30 PM, relng...@aol.com wrote:

All this aeronautical stuff and nobody can spell chord. Makes one wonder.

RLE
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Re: [MBZ] ranting again..

[RELNGSON]

> .With the modern tech in cars being totally connected everything, 
> data
> bus for connectivity, etc - it seems there could be use for
> broadcasting codes for repair purposes.  I have no idea how that might
> be useful, but similar to onstar the malfunction could be seen prior
> to arrival at shop, for whatever reason.  The stupid tech already
> broadcasts where the car is located, why not broadcast data regarding
> operations and potential system failure issues?  Again, for what
> useful benefit, I don't know, but it seems that the broadcast could
> include data nobody needs... just because...  Not unlike most of the
> other 'tech' in modern cars.  Why do I need to punish a data bus with
> road grime, rattle, heat, etc?  It all seems superfluous - I drive a
> 1984 240D with 3 pedals and crank windows.  I dunno...
> mao..
> 
I was into the third read of this but then my brain started to melt...

Why "stupid tech", might I ask? The tech does not broadcast anything, any 
time. And codes are pulled in the shop, anyway. A car cannot be located 
unless it has Teleaid, now called MBrace, and when this is done it's by the 
provider of the service which happens to be in Texas. It's true that trouble 
codes can be checked but that's only done if the car is broken down someplace 
with the owner inside, calling on the built-in one number digital cell phone.

MBrace is a very expensive option with an annual fee in the $275 range. My 
car does not have it.

RLE 

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Re: [MBZ] Low Oil Pressure

[Kevin Kraly]

Those AUTOMACTIC trannies are expensive to fix.

Kevin in Hillsboro, OR, still trying to contact the owner of that 240D

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Re: [MBZ] airplane footage

[G Mann]

Ohhh snap.. I've been "wogered". ;)

Grant...

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:30 PM,  wrote:

> All this aeronautical stuff and nobody can spell chord. Makes one wonder.
>
> RLE
> ___
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[MBZ] who wants a W124 Sportline?

[Mitch Haley]

http://nwct.craigslist.org/cto/2806261245.html

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[MBZ] Gerry still thinking about SLKs?

[Mitch Haley]

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/cto/2850915022.html

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[MBZ] Costa Concordia grounding depiction

[RELNGSON]

http://vimeo.com/35351659

RLE
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Re: [MBZ] airplane footage

[Scott Ritchey]

Fivety years ago I kouldnt even spel enginer.

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of relng...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:31 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] airplane footage

All this aeronautical stuff and nobody can spell chord. Makes one wonder.

RLE
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Re: [MBZ] OT: more furnace talk

[Allan Streib]

Final verdict... board melted beyond repair.  Basically burned through
at the relay.  Motors are fine, so the relay must have gone south.

The damage: new board, $387 + tax, plus diagnostic and installation
labor... $600 total.  Ouch, who says fancy high-efficiency furnaces save
you money???  It'll take a long time for the gas bill savings to pay for
that.

Allan


Allan Streib  writes:

> I had my regular furnace guy out there today (an indy, works out of his
> truck, one-man operation).
>
> He had a few different carrier/bryant boards in his inventory but not
> the proper one for that furnace.  He checked the motors and they appear
> to be fine.  Hot-wired the inducer motor so that the furnace could
> operate, and will have the replacement controller on Monday.
>
> Allan
>
> Rich Thomas  writes:
>
>> Those HVAC control boards are somewhat beyond me, but I can share this
>> -- my heat pump fan burned out, at some point a large start capacitor
>> burned out (a silver can about the size of a small bar of soap, cig
>> pack, deck of cards, etc.) and that caused some other problems.  That
>> capacitor burned out again a few weeks later, the guy said he would
>> replace it for free but the service call was $75.  NFW dude, he
>> finally came and fixed it.  The capacitors are like $3, I bought a
>> couple of them should that happen again.
>>
>> I was out of town when the fan motor burned out, my wife called the
>> guy, he sent someone to replace it.  That cost like $500.  So like 2
>> weeks after a year later, the fan burns out, I call the guy, he says
>> well the warranty is expired, I can replace it again for my cost, blah
>> blah.  I tell him NFW again, come fix the damn thing. So this time the
>> owner of the business comes, he sees that the motor is a cheap
>> "rescue" motor, which all the guys carry just to get you going until
>> they can find the proper motor (which tend to be expensive, and there
>> are various units, so they don't carry them in the truck).  His guy
>> (who was no longer with him) probably sold the expensive motor and put
>> in the cheap one, and pocketed the difference.
>>
>> The point being, there are various things that go wrong with these
>> units -- fan motors, capacitors, board components, etc.  A GOOD HVAC
>> guy can figure it out, the hacks might just start replacing things.
>>
>> --R
>>
>> On 2/11/12 10:06 AM, Jim Cathey wrote:
 problem was then visible: a burned-out relay on the board.  It had
 apparently gotten quite hot, as the plastic case of the relay was
 deformed and the board was black around where it was attached.
>>>
>>> Sounds pretty bad.
>>>
 So we're going to need a new controller board
>>>
>>> Not necessarily.  Is the board so damaged that a new relay
>>> could not be attached?  Even if it meant gluing it to the
>>> board and running a few flying leads?  I have done this.
>>> It depends on whether anything _else_ besides the relay
>>> got killed.
>>>
 but why did this happen?
>>>
>>> It is possible that the relay was poorly attached, or developed
>>> high contact resistance, and the resulting heat resulted in a
>>> positive feedback cycle that resulted in cookage and death.
>>>
>>> Or the motor caused it, but if it spins freely that seems
>>> less likely.
>>>
>>> -- Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
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-- 
1983 300D
1979 300SD

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