Re: [MBZ] 747

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

I wonder how a scrapped and gutted 747 body would be as a house; how many rooms?
Several other airliners over the years have been converted into homes and 
businesses.
Gerry 

Dan Penoff wrote:
> I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400.  As you 
> might expect, the -400s were the nicest.  Got to make the trip across the 
> Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my business 
> class seat back broke.  Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to go sit with 
> the common folk downstairs.  The cabin crew asked if I could sit in the crew 
> bunk room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight, only one crew) and 
> they said, “Sure!”
> 
> That was nice.  Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.
> 
> They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure.  You should stand on the 
> tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.
> 
> -D
> 
>  
> > On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > I have always wanted to fly on one but does not look like I will get to. I 
> > guess they are probably used by some of the overseas airlines.
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
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-- 
arche...@embarqmail.com 

---
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Re: [MBZ] Wilton?

[WILTON via Mercedes]

Thnks.  'Getting about more slowly recently.

W
 
- Original Message - 
From: "Randy Bennell via Mercedes" 

To: "WILTON via Mercedes" 
Cc: "Randy Bennell" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Wilton?



On 22/11/2017 1:12 PM, WILTON via Mercedes wrote:

Lurkin' reich hieah.

WILTON


Good to know you are still up and about Wilton.

RB

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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[clay monroe via Mercedes]

Best I ever encountered was the 11 year old group 49 that came with Polei.  It 
was replaced this past January.  Sticker claimed it was from 2006.  Worst 
battery has been the MB factory battery I picked up for the W220 last December. 
 It has died twice.



clay 

1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1986 SDL - Polei
1982 300 SD - Allen

retired models-
2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







> On Nov 22, 2017, at 4:30 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Longest I ever had a battery last was a frod motorcraft at 9 years.  It was a 
> 49 or near that, in the back end of the escort, hidden.  Stealer had to put 
> in a new battery when I bought the car.  they ordered it in, so it was fresh. 
>  Interstate gives em 12 months on the shelf, then they age out.
> 
> i'd guess 5 yrs on these IF you are lucky.  probably already 2 yrs old.  1 yr 
> at the BMW warehouse, another year before they got auctioned off somewhere.   
> YMMV
> 
>> Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>> November 22, 2017 at 6:23 PM
>> I wonder how long these could be stored if one stockpiled several of them.
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[clay monroe via Mercedes]

  The engineers have a problem getting beyond the idiots in marketing or sales. 
 Now the need is to make a “world” airplane.  Build it all over the place, so 
as to capture too many disparate parts.  Then, the whole, will result in 
mismatched parts that will need to be re-eningeered so that an airplane could 
be put together.  The troubles with both the 777 and the 787.  Now, the flying 
public is put on cartoon planes.



clay 

1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1986 SDL - Polei
1982 300 SD - Allen

retired models-
2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
>> ‎What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, >skinny black ties, and  pocket 
>> protectors
> 
> I've always wondered, if they designed the SR-71 with slide rules and 
> drafting tables in the late '50s and early '60s with no or very limited 
> computing power, what do they have now...?
> 
> Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I like that.  Good idea.

-D


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 9:04 PM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Three moves equals a fire, or so we used to say in Saudi.
> 


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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[OK Don via Mercedes]

The Gill battery in the Cessna came (via UPS) dry, with a separate bottle
of acid I had to add, then charge for x hours, before installing it in the
aircraft.

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:02 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Many years ago we used to get batteries “dry” in the generator business,
> then fill them with acid before putting them into service.
>
> It was a major PITA for a lot of reasons:
>
> You had to store, handle and dispose of large amounts of sulfuric acid.
> Can’t count the number of pieces of clothing I trashed getting acid
> spilled/splashed on them.  Worst part was you often didn’t realize it,
> because the damage didn’t show up until they were washed.
>
> Filling a battery didn’t result in a fully charged battery out of the
> gate.  After filling them up you had to charge them.  That meant if you
> came back to the shop to get a battery for a piece of equipment that was
> down you couldn’t just pull one off the shelf, fill it and head back to the
> job site with a “new” battery, ready to go.
>
> Batteries would age out on the shelf due to humidity (an issue in the
> summer months.)  When they say “dry” they mean dry.  If the plates get any
> kind of moisture on them, it messes things up and the battery might not
> take a full charge when wetted.
>
> We got smart after a year or two of doing this and struck up a deal with
> Interstate to stock batteries of common sizes in our shop.  The Interstate
> truck came by weekly and replenished inventory and rotated old stock out
> and picked up our old batteries.  The cost was incremental, and really
> pretty insignificant when we factored the hassle of having dry batteries.
> Not only that, it shifted the environmental aspect of handling batteries to
> the vendor and away from us.
>
> -D
>
>
> > On Nov 22, 2017, at 7:51 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > Wonder if you could drain the acid to keep them from sulfating.
> >
> > Curt
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> >
> >  On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:30 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes<
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:   Longest I ever had a battery last was a
> frod motorcraft at 9 years.  It
> > was a 49 or near that, in the back end of the escort, hidden.  Stealer
> > had to put in a new battery when I bought the car.  they ordered it in,
> > so it was fresh.  Interstate gives em 12 months on the shelf, then they
> > age out.
> >
> > i'd guess 5 yrs on these IF you are lucky.  probably already 2 yrs old.
> > 1 yr at the BMW warehouse, another year before they got auctioned off
> > somewhere.  YMMV
> >
> >> Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
> >> November 22, 2017 at 6:23 PM
> >> I wonder how long these could be stored if one stockpiled several of
> >> them.
> >>
> >
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-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

You bin banned fer a long time!   ;)


Mountain Man via Mercedes 
November 22, 2017 at 8:02 PM

Ask at banned - does Darryl still read banned? He is in the battery
biz and knows. Darryl has mentioned Deka - at mercedeslist. Do I get
banned for mentioning mercedeslist?
mao


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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Three moves equals a fire, or so we used to say in Saudi.

On Nov 22, 2017 2:38 PM, "Dan Penoff via Mercedes" 
wrote:

> I have a wonderful Panasonic 3CCD HDV camcorder with all sorts of stuff,
> like a Rode shotgun mic, hoods, etc.  It has absolutely no value today but
> I use it pretty often.  I wouldn’t give it up for anything.
>
> Moving provides a really good opportunity to declutter.  You realize that
> theres a lot of crap you’ve accumulated that when it gets down to the
> details you simply don’t care a lot about….
>
> -D
>
>
> > On Nov 22, 2017, at 5:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > I wanted a small house for two reasons:It's easy to heat/cool. And it's
> easy to clean.  I'm in declutter mode lately, lots of stuff that doesn't
> get much used needs to find a new home. Anybody want an HDV camcorder? Good
> camera but it uses tapes. I'll even throw in a tape...Ignore the property
> sticker from my previous employer.
> > Curt
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> >
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Mitch wrote:
> What sizes does BMW have?

Ask at banned - does Darryl still read banned?  He is in the battery
biz and knows.  Darryl has mentioned Deka - at mercedeslist.  Do I get
banned for mentioning mercedeslist?
mao

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

--R wrote:
> Got to fly a brand new 777 once, was on its 3rd flight from US to UK. That 
> was really nice too.

We rode a close to maiden flight for the 777 at T-Day.  It was day
before T-Day years ago and riding to work the radio announced they
were giving $50 RT anywhere leaving T-Day morning, return friday
morning for first 50 callers.  It happened.  The captain was giddy
telling us over the cabin speakers all about the engines and width of
the aircraft and the interior amenities.  Our trip was ORD-DEN and
very memorable for $50.  Related(?) - a month ago my son acquired A320
type rating in Dallas.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

On our flight from IND to TPA back in October we got to make one of the first 
flights on a SWA 737-MAX.  You can read more about them here:

https://thepointsguy.com/2017/10/first-look-southwest-737-max-8/

Really nice, very comfortable for someone over 6 foot tall.  Cabin lighting was 
funky.

The jumbos in general were all really nice.  I made a number of trips in an 
L-1011 which was owned by our travel club in Indianapolis, Ambassadair.  It was 
part of their fleet from the parent company, ATA.  My Dad was pilot buddies 
with the owner, George Mikelson.  He started out with a 727 back in the 1970s 
and eventually built up a nice fleet of aircraft.  The bills got paid with 
charters, and the travel club got the perks of having a broad range of aircraft 
to choose from for their planned trips.

We used to go to Freeport for weekend trips in the winter for $199/each.  That 
covered everything, except meals.  Leave on Friday afternoon, come back Sunday 
night.  My Mom traveled all over the world with them.  It was a great 
experience, as they handled everything from departure to return.  Didn’t have 
to worry about bags, transportation, clearing customs, etc.

-D


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 8:36 PM, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Got to fly on 747s several times BOS-LHR and back on BA.  Usually business or 
> first class over then cattle class back. That was hard. BA first class was 
> VERY nice, starting in the lounge. Rode the upper deck a coupla times, back 
> then the pilots left the door open so it was possible to wander in and chat a 
> bit. That was fun. 
> 
> The food and drink in biz and first was quite pleasant and one could start in 
> the lounge before the flight. Toward the end of when I was flying some of the 
> lounges had showers to clean up after red-eyes, that was quite indulgent. 
> 
> I always found that chatting up the FAs was the best way to be especially 
> pampered. They usually got bored on the longer flights and a lot of the 
> passengers were assholes so they appreciated nice. 
> 
> Got to fly a brand new 777 once, was on its 3rd flight from US to UK. That 
> was really nice too. 
> 
> --R
> Sent from iPhone
> 


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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On November 22, 2017 at 7:58 PM Craig via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> He lists the size as 16" x 7" x 7 1/2" which is 406.4 x 177.8 x 190.5 mm
> 
> 

What sizes does BMW have?
I looked up a BMW X6 and it took a 95R.
I looked up a 128i and it took a 49.

According to Deka (a East Penn company), their 49 AGM is 354x175x190, their 95R 
AGM is 394x175x190.
http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0379.pdf

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

Got to fly on 747s several times BOS-LHR and back on BA.  Usually business or 
first class over then cattle class back. That was hard. BA first class was VERY 
nice, starting in the lounge. Rode the upper deck a coupla times, back then the 
pilots left the door open so it was possible to wander in and chat a bit. That 
was fun. 

The food and drink in biz and first was quite pleasant and one could start in 
the lounge before the flight. Toward the end of when I was flying some of the 
lounges had showers to clean up after red-eyes, that was quite indulgent. 

I always found that chatting up the FAs was the best way to be especially 
pampered. They usually got bored on the longer flights and a lot of the 
passengers were assholes so they appreciated nice. 

Got to fly a brand new 777 once, was on its 3rd flight from US to UK. That was 
really nice too. 

--R
Sent from iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 3:11 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I only flew in the main cabin on a -400 once.  DTW to KSI, a 14+ hour flight. 
> Wow. That was ugly.
> 
> I had to be in Seoul on short notice for a three letter agency, and it was 
> the quickest way to get there. Business and first class seats were sold out.  
> Military transport would have taken too long.
> 
> Made me appreciate those upper deck seats all the more.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I got to fly back from Entebbe, Uganda to London on one.  British Airways.  
>> It was a full house.  Very snug.  I wanted to see the upper deck, but no 
>> dice.
>> 
>>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>> November 22, 2017 at 1:56 PM
>>> I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400. As you 
>>> might expect, the -400s were the nicest. Got to make the trip across the 
>>> Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my 
>>> business class seat back broke. Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to 
>>> go sit with the common folk downstairs. The cabin crew asked if I could sit 
>>> in the crew bunk room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight, only 
>>> one crew) and they said, “Sure!”
>>> 
>>> That was nice. Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.
>>> 
>>> They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure. You should stand on the 
>>> tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Yes that’s the big deal with agm batteries

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 7:16 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> Ahh, I didn't actually read the ad. Bet they last better than liquid type 
> batteries anyway.
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> 
> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:56 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> They are agm batteries, so I don’t think there is anything you can drain
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Nov 22, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Wonder if you could drain the acid to keep them from sulfating.
> > 
> > Curt
> > 
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> > 
> >  On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:30 PM, Curley McLain via 
> > Mercedes wrote:  Longest I ever had a battery last 
> > was a frod motorcraft at 9 years.  It 
> > was a 49 or near that, in the back end of the escort, hidden.  Stealer 
> > had to put in a new battery when I bought the car.  they ordered it in, 
> > so it was fresh.  Interstate gives em 12 months on the shelf, then they 
> > age out.
> > 
> > i'd guess 5 yrs on these IF you are lucky.  probably already 2 yrs old.  
> > 1 yr at the BMW warehouse, another year before they got auctioned off 
> > somewhere.  YMMV
> > 
> >> Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
> >> November 22, 2017 at 6:23 PM
> >> I wonder how long these could be stored if one stockpiled several of 
> >> them.
> >> 
> > 
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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Ahh, I didn't actually read the ad. Bet they last better than liquid type 
batteries anyway.
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:56 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via 
Mercedes wrote:   They are agm batteries, so I don’t 
think there is anything you can drain

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Wonder if you could drain the acid to keep them from sulfating.
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
>  On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:30 PM, Curley McLain via 
>Mercedes wrote:  Longest I ever had a battery last was 
>a frod motorcraft at 9 years.  It 
> was a 49 or near that, in the back end of the escort, hidden.  Stealer 
> had to put in a new battery when I bought the car.  they ordered it in, 
> so it was fresh.  Interstate gives em 12 months on the shelf, then they 
> age out.
> 
> i'd guess 5 yrs on these IF you are lucky.  probably already 2 yrs old.  
> 1 yr at the BMW warehouse, another year before they got auctioned off 
> somewhere.  YMMV
> 
>> Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>> November 22, 2017 at 6:23 PM
>> I wonder how long these could be stored if one stockpiled several of 
>> them.
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 19:02:16 -0600 "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes"
 wrote:

> Interesting. So I am making the assumption it’s $80 per battery and not
> $80 for the whole pallet.

That's what I assumed, too.


Craig


> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Nov 22, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Craig via Mercedes
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 18:11:57 -0600 "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes"
> >  wrote:
> > 
> >> These appear to be group 49 batteries. If so, this is a heck of a
> >> deal. I wonder if we can get Craig to ship them to us?
> >> 
> >> BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. Car Battery - New - never used or installed
> >> 
> >> https://albuquerque.craigslist.org/pts/d/bmw-mercedes-audi-etc-car/6396446497.html
> > 
> > 
> > He's 13 miles from me and appears to have 30 batteries.
> > 
> > He says that he will charge additional $20 to deliver it, but I
> > presume that's in the local area, not to Nowata.
> > 
> > He lists the size as 16" x 7" x 7 1/2" which is 406.4 x 177.8 x 190.5
> > mm
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > In the information Phillip has posted to the List, he said:
> > 
> > | BCI |DIN| EN   | length | height | Holddown |
> > |-+-+-+--+++--|
> > |  49 | H8  | L5  | 88L5 |  354   |  190   |b3|
> > |-+-+-+--+++--|
> > 
> > Holddownsb3 - 10.5 mm high on long and short sides
> > 
> > Another source, https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/9073755/00697,
> > says a Group 49 battery is:
> > 
> >Length (in.)  14.02 = 356.1 mm
> >Width (in.)6.89 = 175.0 mm
> >Height (in.)   7.45 = 189.2 mm
> > 
> > which is close to Phillip's dimensions.
> > 
> > So, it looks like the battery is two inches longer than a Group 49.
> > 
> > 
> > Craig
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > 
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> 
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> 




Craig

--
Present: '90 300D/2.5 Turbo246 kmi
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   207 kmi
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  Has Cat Platinum Overhaul!
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 '86 190E/2.3
 '72 220/8
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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Many years ago we used to get batteries “dry” in the generator business, then 
fill them with acid before putting them into service.

It was a major PITA for a lot of reasons:

You had to store, handle and dispose of large amounts of sulfuric acid.  Can’t 
count the number of pieces of clothing I trashed getting acid spilled/splashed 
on them.  Worst part was you often didn’t realize it, because the damage didn’t 
show up until they were washed.

Filling a battery didn’t result in a fully charged battery out of the gate.  
After filling them up you had to charge them.  That meant if you came back to 
the shop to get a battery for a piece of equipment that was down you couldn’t 
just pull one off the shelf, fill it and head back to the job site with a “new” 
battery, ready to go.

Batteries would age out on the shelf due to humidity (an issue in the summer 
months.)  When they say “dry” they mean dry.  If the plates get any kind of 
moisture on them, it messes things up and the battery might not take a full 
charge when wetted.

We got smart after a year or two of doing this and struck up a deal with 
Interstate to stock batteries of common sizes in our shop.  The Interstate 
truck came by weekly and replenished inventory and rotated old stock out and 
picked up our old batteries.  The cost was incremental, and really pretty 
insignificant when we factored the hassle of having dry batteries.  Not only 
that, it shifted the environmental aspect of handling batteries to the vendor 
and away from us.

-D


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 7:51 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Wonder if you could drain the acid to keep them from sulfating.
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
>  On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:30 PM, Curley McLain via 
> Mercedes wrote:   Longest I ever had a battery last 
> was a frod motorcraft at 9 years.  It 
> was a 49 or near that, in the back end of the escort, hidden.  Stealer 
> had to put in a new battery when I bought the car.  they ordered it in, 
> so it was fresh.  Interstate gives em 12 months on the shelf, then they 
> age out.
> 
> i'd guess 5 yrs on these IF you are lucky.  probably already 2 yrs old.  
> 1 yr at the BMW warehouse, another year before they got auctioned off 
> somewhere.  YMMV
> 
>> Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>> November 22, 2017 at 6:23 PM
>> I wonder how long these could be stored if one stockpiled several of 
>> them.
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Interesting. So I am making the assumption it’s $80 per battery and not $80 for 
the whole pallet.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 18:11:57 -0600 "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes"
>  wrote:
> 
>> These appear to be group 49 batteries. If so, this is a heck of a deal.
>> I wonder if we can get Craig to ship them to us?
>> 
>> BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. Car Battery - New - never used or installed
>> 
>> https://albuquerque.craigslist.org/pts/d/bmw-mercedes-audi-etc-car/6396446497.html
> 
> 
> He's 13 miles from me and appears to have 30 batteries.
> 
> He says that he will charge additional $20 to deliver it, but I presume
> that's in the local area, not to Nowata.
> 
> He lists the size as 16" x 7" x 7 1/2" which is 406.4 x 177.8 x 190.5 mm
> 
> 
> 
> In the information Phillip has posted to the List, he said:
> 
> | BCI |DIN| EN   | length | height | Holddown |
> |-+-+-+--+++--|
> |  49 | H8  | L5  | 88L5 |  354   |  190   |b3|
> |-+-+-+--+++--|
> 
> Holddownsb3 - 10.5 mm high on long and short sides
> 
> Another source, https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/9073755/00697,
> says a Group 49 battery is:
> 
>Length (in.)  14.02 = 356.1 mm
>Width (in.)6.89 = 175.0 mm
>Height (in.)   7.45 = 189.2 mm
> 
> which is close to Phillip's dimensions.
> 
> So, it looks like the battery is two inches longer than a Group 49.
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 18:11:57 -0600 "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes"
 wrote:

> These appear to be group 49 batteries. If so, this is a heck of a deal.
> I wonder if we can get Craig to ship them to us?
> 
> BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. Car Battery - New - never used or installed
> 
> https://albuquerque.craigslist.org/pts/d/bmw-mercedes-audi-etc-car/6396446497.html


He's 13 miles from me and appears to have 30 batteries.

He says that he will charge additional $20 to deliver it, but I presume
that's in the local area, not to Nowata.

He lists the size as 16" x 7" x 7 1/2" which is 406.4 x 177.8 x 190.5 mm



In the information Phillip has posted to the List, he said:

 | BCI |DIN| EN   | length | height | Holddown |
 |-+-+-+--+++--|
 |  49 | H8  | L5  | 88L5 |  354   |  190   |b3|
 |-+-+-+--+++--|

 Holddownsb3 - 10.5 mm high on long and short sides

Another source, https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/9073755/00697,
says a Group 49 battery is:

Length (in.)  14.02 = 356.1 mm
Width (in.)6.89 = 175.0 mm
Height (in.)   7.45 = 189.2 mm

which is close to Phillip's dimensions.

So, it looks like the battery is two inches longer than a Group 49.


Craig


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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

They are agm batteries, so I don’t think there is anything you can drain

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Wonder if you could drain the acid to keep them from sulfating.
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
>  On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:30 PM, Curley McLain via 
> Mercedes wrote:   Longest I ever had a battery last 
> was a frod motorcraft at 9 years.  It 
> was a 49 or near that, in the back end of the escort, hidden.  Stealer 
> had to put in a new battery when I bought the car.  they ordered it in, 
> so it was fresh.  Interstate gives em 12 months on the shelf, then they 
> age out.
> 
> i'd guess 5 yrs on these IF you are lucky.  probably already 2 yrs old.  
> 1 yr at the BMW warehouse, another year before they got auctioned off 
> somewhere.  YMMV
> 
>> Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>> November 22, 2017 at 6:23 PM
>> I wonder how long these could be stored if one stockpiled several of 
>> them.
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Wonder if you could drain the acid to keep them from sulfating.

Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:30 PM, Curley McLain via 
Mercedes wrote:   Longest I ever had a battery last was 
a frod motorcraft at 9 years.  It 
was a 49 or near that, in the back end of the escort, hidden.  Stealer 
had to put in a new battery when I bought the car.  they ordered it in, 
so it was fresh.  Interstate gives em 12 months on the shelf, then they 
age out.

i'd guess 5 yrs on these IF you are lucky.  probably already 2 yrs old.  
1 yr at the BMW warehouse, another year before they got auctioned off 
somewhere.  YMMV

> Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
> November 22, 2017 at 6:23 PM
> I wonder how long these could be stored if one stockpiled several of 
> them.
>

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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Longest I ever had a battery last was a frod motorcraft at 9 years.  It 
was a 49 or near that, in the back end of the escort, hidden.  Stealer 
had to put in a new battery when I bought the car.  they ordered it in, 
so it was fresh.  Interstate gives em 12 months on the shelf, then they 
age out.


i'd guess 5 yrs on these IF you are lucky.  probably already 2 yrs old.  
1 yr at the BMW warehouse, another year before they got auctioned off 
somewhere.   YMMV



Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
November 22, 2017 at 6:23 PM
I wonder how long these could be stored if one stockpiled several of 
them.




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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

I wonder how long these could be stored if one stockpiled several of them. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 6:22 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> probably aged out.  Not a bad deal if you are there to pick one up.
> 
>> Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>> November 22, 2017 at 6:11 PM
>> These appear to be group 49 batteries. If so, this is a heck of a deal. I 
>> wonder if we can get Craig to ship them to us?
>> 
>> BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. Car Battery - New - never used or installed
>> 
>> https://albuquerque.craigslist.org/pts/d/bmw-mercedes-audi-etc-car/6396446497.html
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

probably aged out.  Not a bad deal if you are there to pick one up.


Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
November 22, 2017 at 6:11 PM
These appear to be group 49 batteries. If so, this is a heck of a 
deal. I wonder if we can get Craig to ship them to us?


BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. Car Battery - New - never used or installed

https://albuquerque.craigslist.org/pts/d/bmw-mercedes-audi-etc-car/6396446497.html



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Re: [MBZ] 124 Pahtz

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

White


Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
November 22, 2017 at 4:46 PM
Body Color?

Rick


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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

in 1993, it was all 3d virtual reality.   A friend of mine is an 
engineer at Boeing.  He cut his teeth reducing weight on the tail 
section of the 757.  I think he has been involved with the 767, 777 and 
787 as well as several years in the "black hole."   They musta thought 
he was valuable, because he is one of the very few who ever come out of 
the black hole.   I trust him because he was an A&P mechanic before he 
got his BS degree in Aero E.


I think it is all 3D virtual reality now, but faster and more refined.

Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
November 22, 2017 at 4:40 PM

I've always wondered, if they designed the SR-71 with slide rules and 
drafting tables in the late '50s and early '60s with no or very 
limited computing power, what do they have now...?


Rick

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[MBZ] Attn Craig!

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

These appear to be group 49 batteries. If so, this is a heck of a deal. I 
wonder if we can get Craig to ship them to us?

BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. Car Battery - New - never used or installed

https://albuquerque.craigslist.org/pts/d/bmw-mercedes-audi-etc-car/6396446497.html


Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] 124 Pahtz

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Body Color?

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

The mic is probably worth keeping, they don't change a whole lot.
In the new year I need a new camera. Most YouTubers are going with DSLRs but 
for video they're really a compromise. It's going to be hard to find one in my 
$1000 price range that does what I want...

Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Dan Penoff via 
Mercedes wrote:   I have a wonderful Panasonic 3CCD HDV 
camcorder with all sorts of stuff, like a Rode shotgun mic, hoods, etc.  It has 
absolutely no value today but I use it pretty often.  I wouldn’t give it up for 
anything.

Moving provides a really good opportunity to declutter.  You realize that 
theres a lot of crap you’ve accumulated that when it gets down to the details 
you simply don’t care a lot about….

-D


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 5:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I wanted a small house for two reasons:It's easy to heat/cool. And it's easy 
> to clean.  I'm in declutter mode lately, lots of stuff that doesn't get much 
> used needs to find a new home. Anybody want an HDV camcorder? Good camera but 
> it uses tapes. I'll even throw in a tape...Ignore the property sticker from 
> my previous employer.
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 


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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

>‎What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, >skinny black ties, and  pocket 
>protectors

I've always wondered, if they designed the SR-71 with slide rules and drafting 
tables in the late '50s and early '60s with no or very limited computing power, 
what do they have now...?

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I have a wonderful Panasonic 3CCD HDV camcorder with all sorts of stuff, like a 
Rode shotgun mic, hoods, etc.  It has absolutely no value today but I use it 
pretty often.  I wouldn’t give it up for anything.

Moving provides a really good opportunity to declutter.  You realize that 
theres a lot of crap you’ve accumulated that when it gets down to the details 
you simply don’t care a lot about….

-D


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 5:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I wanted a small house for two reasons:It's easy to heat/cool. And it's easy 
> to clean.  I'm in declutter mode lately, lots of stuff that doesn't get much 
> used needs to find a new home. Anybody want an HDV camcorder? Good camera but 
> it uses tapes. I'll even throw in a tape...Ignore the property sticker from 
> my previous employer.
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I wanted a small house for two reasons:It's easy to heat/cool. And it's easy to 
clean.  I'm in declutter mode lately, lots of stuff that doesn't get much used 
needs to find a new home. Anybody want an HDV camcorder? Good camera but it 
uses tapes. I'll even throw in a tape...Ignore the property sticker from my 
previous employer.
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Randy Bennell via 
Mercedes wrote:   On 22/11/2017 2:15 PM, Curt Raymond 
via Mercedes wrote:
> Humble? My 900sq home is humble...
> -Curt

I trust it suits you.
It must limit, to a great extent, the amount of "stuff" that you can 
accumulate.
Most folks seem to fill whatever space they have with "stuff".

RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

RB writes:

>‎Most folks seem to fill whatever space >they have with "stuff".

Probably a corollary to Parkinson's Law.

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Java-fired biodiesel

[Dwight Giles via Mercedes]

Andrew has to send the coffee grounds first.
NOT

Dwight Giles Jr.
Wickford RI

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> You get some, I'll burn it in the Jetta. Its already had a bunch of bio-d.
>
> My '85 190D had a bunch of veggie oil one summer. I'd told my co-workers
> about trying it and one guy decided "That can't be good" so he kept buying
> gallons of it convinced it'd "burn up the engine". Typically it'd be 1
> gallon in about 10, no sweat...
>
> -Curt
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 11:15:32 AM EST, Dwight Giles via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>
> Anybody brave enough to try it in an OM 616?
>
> Dwight Giles Jr.
> Wickford RI
>
> On Nov 21, 2017 10:37 AM, "Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes" <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Coffee buzzes for London busesPublished: Tuesday, November 21, 2017
> >
> > Some London buses will start burning a fuel mixture derived in part from
> > coffee grounds.
> >
> > Royal Dutch Shell PLC partnered with the companies Bio-bean and Argent
> > Energy to develop a biofuel containing coffee oil that can blend into the
> > London bus fuel chain without vehicle modifications.
> >
> > The companies have so far produced enough coffee oil to fuel a bus for
> one
> > year, if used as the entire bio component for a 20 percent blended
> diesel.
> >
> > Bio-bean collects coffee waste from high street chains and factories,
> then
> > dries and processes it to extract the oil.
> >
> > "It's a great example of what can be done when we start to reimagine
> waste
> > as an untapped resource," Bio-bean founder Arthur Kay said (Reuters
> >  > full-of-beans-coffee-grounds-to-help-power-londons-buses-idUSKBN1DK0B9>,
> > Nov. 19). *— AAA*
> > ___
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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

That is “Dan’s Law”.  To-wit:

“The amount of crap you have accumulated will always expand to exceed the 
available storage space.”

The only place I wasn’t able to prove this was when we lived in the 4,000 SF 
Momolith.  I attribute the failure to achieve the expected outcome to a lack of 
time, as we were there barely two years.

-D


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 4:01 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 22/11/2017 2:15 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
>> Humble? My 900sq home is humble...
>> -Curt
> 
> I trust it suits you.
> It must limit, to a great extent, the amount of "stuff" that you can 
> accumulate.
> Most folks seem to fill whatever space they have with "stuff".
> 
> RB
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[OK Don via Mercedes]

"Too many small parts flying in close formation".

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I was at an airport somewhere a while back and one was parked at a gate
> and standing in the terminal I was about nose on nose with it thru the
> window. Huge airplane.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:56 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400.  As
> you might expect, the -400s were the nicest.  Got to make the trip across
> the Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my
> business class seat back broke.  Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to
> go sit with the common folk downstairs.  The cabin crew asked if I could
> sit in the crew bunk room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight,
> only one crew) and they said, “Sure!”
> >
> > That was nice.  Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.
> >
> > They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure.  You should stand on the
> tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.
> >
> > -D
> >
> >
> >> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have always wanted to fly on one but does not look like I will get
> to. I guess they are probably used by some of the overseas airlines.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

G: wrote:
> ...
> G: BBM can upstage me. When we retired wife wanted to buy one of the 
> mini-mansions in this subdivision, but I won out and we built a humble little 
> 2200 sq.ft. 3/2 with a detached 600 sq.ft. workshop, and since she died, I've 
> lived like a poor man in keeping with Mies Van Der Rohe's principle that 
> "form follows function".
> It is also in keeping with the principle of humility since America seems to be
>  short of that basic principle in our Judeo-Christian nation.
> 

Nice comments... Thanks.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 22/11/2017 2:15 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

Humble? My 900sq home is humble...
-Curt


I trust it suits you.
It must limit, to a great extent, the amount of "stuff" that you can 
accumulate.

Most folks seem to fill whatever space they have with "stuff".

RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Humble? My 900sq home is humble...
-Curt
 

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017, 1:38:39 AM EST, archer75--- via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 ...
G: BBM can upstage me. When we retired wife wanted to buy one of the 
mini-mansions in this subdivision, but I won out and we built a humble little 
2200 sq.ft. 3/2 with a detached 600 sq.ft. workshop, and since she died, I've 
lived like a poor man in keeping with Mies Van Der Rohe's principle that "form 
follows function".
It is also in keeping with the principle of humility since America seems to be
 short of that basic principle in our Judeo-Christian nation.

Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
> I see...  My upstagement manifests in World's Best cat litter and Spot's
> Stew dry food.
> 
 Buggered Benzmail wrote:
> > 1) one has to fund the finer things in life with sacrifices in other
> > aspects of life
> > 2) I need someone in my life to upstage!
> > --R

> > > On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:45 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Rich, with a bathroom like that  how come you 1) drive decrepit old
> > > beaters, and 2) associate with such an unprestigious group as comprises
> > > this list?
...
G: This isn't an unprestigious group. We have doctors, lawyers, engineers, 
computer experts, retired executives, and and a reknowned sales manager in 
Oklahoma; wealthy in Mercedes if not in money.
 Our fine Mercedes are not decrepit; they are the "senior citizens" of the car 
world; dignified and contempuous of the tiny little 4 wheel boxes erroneously 
refered to as automobiles. 
.
> > > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Same thing out here in CA. Perfectly good stuff, just not the right
> > style.
> > >>
> > >> When I redid a kitchen in DC, the contractor was the main guy doing home
> > >> depot remods. He said every time the administration goes from dem to
> > rep,
> > >> all the modern kitchens get torn out and replaced with traditional
> > stuff as
> > >> the occupants change, then presumably back again when things go the
> > other
> > >> way. Nothing to do with being worn out.
> > >>
> > >> On Nov 21, 2017 6:16 AM, "Floyd Thursby via Mercedes" <
> > >> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> For my bathroom stone (rain forest green "marble") I went to a local
> > shop
> > >>> that is/was owned by an Iranian from California, sold tile and all
> > kinds
> > >> of
> > >>> stone stuff from a warehouse.  He would have auctions every 6 months or
> > >> so
> > >>> and sell big lots of stuff pretty cheap.  I think he just imported
> > >>> container loads of it from Italy and the ME so not a lot of markup.  He
> > >> had
> > >>> 7 prefabbed slabs 8ft long of this stone, got all of them for like
> > >> $800.  I
> > >>> initially only bought 5, there were two left that had some cracks or
> > >> chunks
> > >>> broken off or something, he tried to get me to buy those too for the
> > same
> > >>> price, I ended up giving him $100 for both I think, and he was in pain
> > (I
> > >>> felt good about beating down a rug, er, stone, merchant).  My Russian
> > >> stone
> > >>> guy ("Eugene" or Yevgeny I think) fabbed them for me, he didn't care.
> > >> They
> > >>> came out very nice.  I still have 2 of them to use for something,
> > >> sometime,
> > >>> maybe.
> > >>>
> > >>> The kitchen island stone was a VERY expensive slab of "Fusion" granite
> > >>> (actually not granite but some other kind of stone), it was pretty big,
> > >> so
> > >>> even after fabbing the top I had a piece about 30"x 70" left over for
> > >>> something in the future.  It is gorgeous stuff.
> > >>>
> > >>> Down at the luxury gated resort community the rich folks buy these 4
> > or 5
> > >>> year old houses, do a gut job, then completely redo them.  I had a
> > buddy
> > >>> who was a builder over there, he told me about tearing out very
> > high-end
> > >>> stuff from houses that had barely been used as 2nd or 3rd homes,
> > >> beautiful
> > >>> stone, Viking appliances, cherry, walnut, exotic flooring, cabinets,
> > all
> > >>> kinds of stuff. Usually he or his guys would just take it and either
> > sell
> > >>> it or use it or give it away. He completely remodeled his son's house
> > >> using
> > >>> these recycled materials, said it was gorgeous when he finished with
> > >> it.  I
> > >>> kept after him to let me in on some of this but he never did. (Some
> > buddy
> > >>> huh?)
> > >>>
> > >>> --FT
> > >>>
> > >>>
> >  On 11/18/17 3:35 PM, OK Don via Mercedes wrote:
> > 
> >  All of ours came from the left-overs from larger jobs - I don;'t
> > >> remember
> >  what the discount was, but it was nice. Peruse the scrap section

Re: [MBZ] 747

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

I was at an airport somewhere a while back and one was parked at a gate and 
standing in the terminal I was about nose on nose with it thru the window. Huge 
airplane.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:56 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400.  As you 
> might expect, the -400s were the nicest.  Got to make the trip across the 
> Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my business 
> class seat back broke.  Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to go sit with 
> the common folk downstairs.  The cabin crew asked if I could sit in the crew 
> bunk room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight, only one crew) and 
> they said, “Sure!”
> 
> That was nice.  Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.
> 
> They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure.  You should stand on the 
> tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.
> 
> -D
> 
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I have always wanted to fly on one but does not look like I will get to. I 
>> guess they are probably used by some of the overseas airlines.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I only flew in the main cabin on a -400 once.  DTW to KSI, a 14+ hour flight. 
Wow. That was ugly.

I had to be in Seoul on short notice for a three letter agency, and it was the 
quickest way to get there. Business and first class seats were sold out.  
Military transport would have taken too long.

Made me appreciate those upper deck seats all the more.

-D

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I got to fly back from Entebbe, Uganda to London on one.  British Airways.  
> It was a full house.  Very snug.  I wanted to see the upper deck, but no dice.
> 
>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>> November 22, 2017 at 1:56 PM
>> I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400. As you 
>> might expect, the -400s were the nicest. Got to make the trip across the 
>> Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my business 
>> class seat back broke. Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to go sit with 
>> the common folk downstairs. The cabin crew asked if I could sit in the crew 
>> bunk room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight, only one crew) 
>> and they said, “Sure!”
>> 
>> That was nice. Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.
>> 
>> They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure. You should stand on the 
>> tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Just about a completely different aircraft I would imagine at least from an 
engine and cockpit standpoint 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:56 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> How did the new 737s differ from the first ones?
> 
> On Nov 22, 2017 2:52 PM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
> wrote:
> 
>> I think the 747 is still being delivered to japan and china.  They jam
>> over 500 small seats in em.
>> 
>> During golden week there used to be 12000 JAL passengers a day leaving
>> Honolulu.  That is 24 flights a day, all 747s, all jammed full.  Plus
>> however many the other carriers hauled...
>> 
>> According the wikipedia:  September 2017, 1,536 aircraft had been built,
>> with 17 of the 747-8 variants remain on order.
>> 
>> So, they have 17 more to build/deliver, not counting any new orders.
>> 
>> The backlog of 737s is crazy.  It is almost half of the total number
>> delivered over 50 years!
>> 
>>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>> November 22, 2017 at 1:42 PM
>>> Still a lot of them in long haul air freight, and probably will be for
>>> many years to come.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Java-fired biodiesel

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

You get some, I'll burn it in the Jetta. Its already had a bunch of bio-d.
My '85 190D had a bunch of veggie oil one summer. I'd told my co-workers about 
trying it and one guy decided "That can't be good" so he kept buying gallons of 
it convinced it'd "burn up the engine". Typically it'd be 1 gallon in about 10, 
no sweat...
-Curt
 

On Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 11:15:32 AM EST, Dwight Giles via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Anybody brave enough to try it in an OM 616?

Dwight Giles Jr.
Wickford RI

On Nov 21, 2017 10:37 AM, "Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes" <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Coffee buzzes for London busesPublished: Tuesday, November 21, 2017
>
> Some London buses will start burning a fuel mixture derived in part from
> coffee grounds.
>
> Royal Dutch Shell PLC partnered with the companies Bio-bean and Argent
> Energy to develop a biofuel containing coffee oil that can blend into the
> London bus fuel chain without vehicle modifications.
>
> The companies have so far produced enough coffee oil to fuel a bus for one
> year, if used as the entire bio component for a 20 percent blended diesel.
>
> Bio-bean collects coffee waste from high street chains and factories, then
> dries and processes it to extract the oil.
>
> "It's a great example of what can be done when we start to reimagine waste
> as an untapped resource," Bio-bean founder Arthur Kay said (Reuters
>  full-of-beans-coffee-grounds-to-help-power-londons-buses-idUSKBN1DK0B9>,
> Nov. 19). *— AAA*
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I got to fly back from Entebbe, Uganda to London on one.  British 
Airways.  It was a full house.  Very snug.  I wanted to see the upper 
deck, but no dice.



Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
November 22, 2017 at 1:56 PM
I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400. As 
you might expect, the -400s were the nicest. Got to make the trip 
across the Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time 
because my business class seat back broke. Upper deck was full and I 
wasn’t about to go sit with the common folk downstairs. The cabin crew 
asked if I could sit in the crew bunk room since it wasn’t occupied 
(trans-Atlantic flight, only one crew) and they said, “Sure!”


That was nice. Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.

They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure. You should stand on 
the tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.


-D



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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400.  As you 
might expect, the -400s were the nicest.  Got to make the trip across the Pond 
to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my business class 
seat back broke.  Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to go sit with the 
common folk downstairs.  The cabin crew asked if I could sit in the crew bunk 
room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight, only one crew) and they 
said, “Sure!”

That was nice.  Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.

They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure.  You should stand on the tarmac 
under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.

-D

 
> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have always wanted to fly on one but does not look like I will get to. I 
> guess they are probably used by some of the overseas airlines.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

How did the new 737s differ from the first ones?

On Nov 22, 2017 2:52 PM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
wrote:

> I think the 747 is still being delivered to japan and china.  They jam
> over 500 small seats in em.
>
> During golden week there used to be 12000 JAL passengers a day leaving
> Honolulu.  That is 24 flights a day, all 747s, all jammed full.  Plus
> however many the other carriers hauled...
>
> According the wikipedia:  September 2017, 1,536 aircraft had been built,
> with 17 of the 747-8 variants remain on order.
>
> So, they have 17 more to build/deliver, not counting any new orders.
>
> The backlog of 737s is crazy.  It is almost half of the total number
> delivered over 50 years!
>
>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>> November 22, 2017 at 1:42 PM
>> Still a lot of them in long haul air freight, and probably will be for
>> many years to come.
>>
>> -D
>>
>
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I think the 747 is still being delivered to japan and china.  They jam 
over 500 small seats in em.


During golden week there used to be 12000 JAL passengers a day leaving 
Honolulu.  That is 24 flights a day, all 747s, all jammed full.  Plus 
however many the other carriers hauled...


According the wikipedia:  September 2017, 1,536 aircraft had been built, 
with 17 of the 747-8 variants remain on order.


So, they have 17 more to build/deliver, not counting any new orders.

The backlog of 737s is crazy.  It is almost half of the total number 
delivered over 50 years!

Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
November 22, 2017 at 1:42 PM
Still a lot of them in long haul air freight, and probably will be for 
many years to come.


-D


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Re: [MBZ] Wilton?

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 22/11/2017 1:12 PM, WILTON via Mercedes wrote:

Lurkin' reich hieah.

WILTON


Good to know you are still up and about Wilton.

RB

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 22/11/2017 1:40 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes wrote:

It’s a shame all the airlines are retiring them.


Too expensive to fly. Newer planes use less fuel.
I see that A380's are already being retired.
RB

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

I have always wanted to fly on one but does not look like I will get to. I 
guess they are probably used by some of the overseas airlines.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Still a lot of them in long haul air freight, and probably will be for many 
> years to come.
> 
> -D
> 
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> It’s a shame all the airlines are retiring them.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:37 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Next year marks the 50th year since the introduction of the Boeing 747.   
>>> The 737 is already over 50.
>>> 
>>> What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, skinny black ties, and pocket 
>>> protectors running slipsticks, that the KC135, the B52, the 737 and the 747 
>>> are all still viable airframes.  (Granted, there have been a lot of 
>>> updates.)
>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Still a lot of them in long haul air freight, and probably will be for many 
years to come.

-D


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> It’s a shame all the airlines are retiring them.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:37 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Next year marks the 50th year since the introduction of the Boeing 747.   
>> The 737 is already over 50.
>> 
>> What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, skinny black ties, and pocket 
>> protectors running slipsticks, that the KC135, the B52, the 737 and the 747 
>> are all still viable airframes.  (Granted, there have been a lot of updates.)
>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[WILTON via Mercedes]

Indeed.  ATTABOYS to all of 'em!

W

- Original Message - 
From: "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Cc: "Curley McLain" <126die...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 2:37 PM
Subject: [MBZ] 747




Next year marks the 50th year since the introduction of the Boeing 
747.   The 737 is already over 50.


What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, skinny black ties, and 
pocket protectors running slipsticks, that the KC135, the B52, the 737 
and the 747 are all still viable airframes.  (Granted, there have been a 
lot of updates.)


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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

It’s a shame all the airlines are retiring them.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:37 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Next year marks the 50th year since the introduction of the Boeing 747.   The 
> 737 is already over 50.
> 
> What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, skinny black ties, and pocket 
> protectors running slipsticks, that the KC135, the B52, the 737 and the 747 
> are all still viable airframes.  (Granted, there have been a lot of updates.)
> 
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[MBZ] 747

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Next year marks the 50th year since the introduction of the Boeing 
747.   The 737 is already over 50.


What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, skinny black ties, and 
pocket protectors running slipsticks, that the KC135, the B52, the 737 
and the 747 are all still viable airframes.  (Granted, there have been a 
lot of updates.)


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Re: [MBZ] Winton?

[WILTON via Mercedes]

Thnks, you, too.

W

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Penoff via Mercedes" 

To: "Mercedes List" 
Cc: "Dan Penoff" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Winton?



Good to hear from you.  Have a great Thanksgiving!

Here’s the article:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16264/the-us-air-force-has-taken-another-step-toward-re-engining-its-b-52s

-D


On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:20 PM, WILTON via Mercedes  
wrote:


Because of many other mods that may be required to re-engine BUFFs, the 
proposals thus far have not been economically feasible.


WILTON




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[MBZ] 123 and 111 itemz

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Thanks for the lead-in, Curley.

All:

Pristine WW123 turbo oil cooler that has never seen rain or snow.  Make me
an offer.

Two W123 grilles with good shells but varying amounts of imperfection in
the egg crates.

W109 radiator that is as magnificent as it is heavy.  Open to suggestions

Late W111 front bumper with nice chrome (lower sections only).  Also fits
108 and 109.

Need to clear out the garage so no reasonable offers refused.  If you're
restoring a W111 coupe please contact me off list for additional small
parts too obscure to list.

Andrew
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Re: [MBZ] Winton?

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 14:12:32 -0500 WILTON via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Lurkin' reich hieah.

Wilton,

We are glad you are lurkin', but we do like to hear from you.

In addition, as the official "ATTABOY" issuer, you are missed.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Winton?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Good to hear from you.  Have a great Thanksgiving!

Here’s the article:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16264/the-us-air-force-has-taken-another-step-toward-re-engining-its-b-52s

-D


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:20 PM, WILTON via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Because of many other mods that may be required to re-engine BUFFs, the 
> proposals thus far have not been economically feasible.
> 
> WILTON
> 


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Re: [MBZ] Winton?

[WILTON via Mercedes]

Because of many other mods that may be required to re-engine BUFFs, the 
proposals thus far have not been economically feasible.


WILTON

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Penoff via Mercedes" 

To: "Mercedes List" 
Cc: "Dan Penoff" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Winton?



Winton, Wilton, you know who I mean…

Was just reading an article on a possible refit for engines on the BUFFs 
last night and thought about him… Wilton, that is.


-D

On Nov 22, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 wrote:



On November 22, 2017 at 7:59 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 wrote:



Anyone heard/seen Wilton lately?


I don't think his brother Winton reads this list.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Winton?

[WILTON via Mercedes]

He doesn't.

WILTON

- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley via Mercedes" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Cc: "Mitch Haley" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Winton?




On November 22, 2017 at 7:59 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 wrote:



Anyone heard/seen Wilton lately?


I don't think his brother Winton reads this list.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Winton?

[WILTON via Mercedes]

Lurkin' reich hieah.

WILTON

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Penoff via Mercedes" 

To: "Mercedes List" 
Cc: "Dan Penoff" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 7:59 AM
Subject: [MBZ] Winton?



Anyone heard/seen Wilton lately?

-D

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[MBZ] 124 Pahtz

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Alles:

I am ready to part out the 87 300D.  Good rear clip, Only 127k miles on 
the engine and trans.  LF fender is good.


NO: Rad, condenser, hood or RF Fender

Email offlist if y'all need some parts!

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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

My understanding is that floor heaters result in _lower_ heating bills,
because if the floor is warm the rest of the house can be cooler yet the
occupants are equally comfortable.

High ceilings in a bathroom would mean much less steamy mirrors after a
shower, less necessity of venting the house to the outside in the cooler
months, assuming you have such.  Winters here you have extremely dry
interiors, so preserving the shower heat/moisture is a good thing.  Venting
a clothes dryer inside here would/could be a good thing for half the year,
assuming the lint situation was sufficiently controlled.  Me?  I line-dry
most of my clothes.  Inside.

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] 210 accident damage

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

I would agree. I have a 4 ton unit and a 10 ton unit and the fittings 
are bigger on the 10 ton unit but they just screw on so one could change 
them if needed.

RB

On 22/11/2017 9:51 AM, MG via Mercedes wrote:
If it doesn't it should just be a matter of changing the fittings. Not 
a big deal.


OK Don via Mercedes wrote:
Are the fittings on these hydraulic pushers/pullers standardized? I 
bought
an 8 ton press at an auction that does not have the power pump. I'd 
like to
use the ram that came with it if I knew that a pump would fit it. I 
removed

the ram and use a 10 ton bottle jack in the frame now.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

Rather than a come-a-long, I would get a hydraulic body set and 
either a

clamp  to pull from or else weld something on to pull from rather than
using the existing hole. That gives you more choice in where to pull 
from

and hydraulic should give you more control.


https://www.harborfreight.com/4-ton-heavy-duty-portable-hydr
aulic-equipment-kit-62115.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/5-ton-pull-back-ram-33611.html

https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/5-ton-2-way-autobody-
and-frame-repair-pull-clamp/A-p1250068e


Could not find the last item on Harbour Freight but they might call it
something else.

RB

On Nov 19, 2017 12:36 PM, "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes" <

mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

So I pulled the fender and headlight off to take a closer took at the
underlying accident damage. The inner fender is obviously wrinkled 
which
pulled loose a couple of brackets from where they were attached. I 
guess

I
am going to try hooking a come a long at the corner of where the 
radiator
support meets the inner fender and pull it it out there, and maybe 
lower
down at the corner of where the headlight could go. There is a 
round hole
there I might be able to attach to. I doubt I will be able to get 
it back

to perfect but I am hoping I can at least get it close by measuring
distances on the other side from the back of the fender to where 
it meets
the radiator support for example. That  should give me an idea of 
how far

to pull it out. Any thoughts or advise?



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Re: [MBZ] 210 accident damage

[MG via Mercedes]

If it doesn't it should just be a matter of changing the 
fittings. Not a big deal.


OK Don via Mercedes wrote:

Are the fittings on these hydraulic pushers/pullers standardized? I bought
an 8 ton press at an auction that does not have the power pump. I'd like to
use the ram that came with it if I knew that a pump would fit it. I removed
the ram and use a 10 ton bottle jack in the frame now.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


Rather than a come-a-long, I would get a hydraulic body set and either a
clamp  to pull from or else weld something on to pull from rather than
using the existing hole. That gives you more choice in where to pull from
and hydraulic should give you more control.


https://www.harborfreight.com/4-ton-heavy-duty-portable-hydr
aulic-equipment-kit-62115.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/5-ton-pull-back-ram-33611.html

https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/5-ton-2-way-autobody-
and-frame-repair-pull-clamp/A-p1250068e


Could not find the last item on Harbour Freight but they might call it
something else.

RB

On Nov 19, 2017 12:36 PM, "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes" <

mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

So I pulled the fender and headlight off to take a closer took at the

underlying accident damage. The inner fender is obviously wrinkled which
pulled loose a couple of brackets from where they were attached. I guess
I
am going to try hooking a come a long at the corner of where the radiator
support meets the inner fender and pull it it out there, and maybe lower
down at the corner of where the headlight could go. There is a round hole
there I might be able to attach to. I doubt I will be able to get it back
to perfect but I am hoping I can at least get it close by measuring
distances on the other side from the back of the fender to where it meets
the radiator support for example. That  should give me an idea of how far
to pull it out. Any thoughts or advise?




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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

That works.

I will say that I was skeptical of the heated floor thing when we had it in the 
Momolith in Indy.  I was sure it would cost a small fortune to operate.  When I 
did the research and found it was very low wattage I immediately fired it up.  
Ours had programmable timers on them so you would set it up to start warming 
about 2:00-3:00 am and shut off around 5:00 or 6:00.  By 5:00-ish the tile 
floors would be nice and toasty.  Wonderful thing on those cold winter mornings.

And I saw no perceptible difference in electrical costs when they were in use.

-D


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 10:10 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well it is about 20ft up above the kitchen space so it doesn't stir up much 
> cruft but just sorta gently stirs the air a bit to get warm air down from the 
> peak in the winter, which makes a big difference.  I usually have it on idle 
> thrust not takeoff thrust so it doesn't stir much else up.
> 
> The one in the bathroom is on most of the time just to keep air circulating.  
> I find the floor heater keeps it pretty warm in there so the fan distributes 
> the air from the peak too.
> 
> --FT
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

Well it is about 20ft up above the kitchen space so it doesn't stir up 
much cruft but just sorta gently stirs the air a bit to get warm air 
down from the peak in the winter, which makes a big difference.  I 
usually have it on idle thrust not takeoff thrust so it doesn't stir 
much else up.


The one in the bathroom is on most of the time just to keep air 
circulating.  I find the floor heater keeps it pretty warm in there so 
the fan distributes the air from the peak too.


--FT


On 11/22/17 7:59 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

I’m not sure I would want a ceiling fan in a kitchen, considering all the cruft 
it would stir up, but definitely in the bathroom.  We have one in ours and I I 
find it nice as it helps to dry you off after a shower, as well as keeping air 
moving so mirrors don’t steam up.

-D


On Nov 22, 2017, at 7:12 AM, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
 wrote:

Yep exactly. I put in fans in the bathroom, bedroom, and kitchen above + loft. 
They make a big difference.

--R


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Re: [MBZ] Winton?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Winton, Wilton, you know who I mean…

Was just reading an article on a possible refit for engines on the BUFFs last 
night and thought about him… Wilton, that is.

-D

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On November 22, 2017 at 7:59 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Anyone heard/seen Wilton lately?
> 
> I don't think his brother Winton reads this list. 
> 
> Mitch.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Winton?

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On November 22, 2017 at 7:59 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Anyone heard/seen Wilton lately?

I don't think his brother Winton reads this list. 

Mitch.

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[MBZ] Winton?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Anyone heard/seen Wilton lately?

-D

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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I’m not sure I would want a ceiling fan in a kitchen, considering all the cruft 
it would stir up, but definitely in the bathroom.  We have one in ours and I I 
find it nice as it helps to dry you off after a shower, as well as keeping air 
moving so mirrors don’t steam up.

-D

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 7:12 AM, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yep exactly. I put in fans in the bathroom, bedroom, and kitchen above + 
> loft. They make a big difference. 
> 
> --R


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Re: [MBZ] OT: New/Old Home Purchase

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

Yep exactly. I put in fans in the bathroom, bedroom, and kitchen above + loft. 
They make a big difference. 

--R
Sent from iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 12:24 AM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Depending on your climate, a ceiling fan in the bath can be a great feature.  
> A little excess ceiling height is great for such a fan.
> Scott
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From:  Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes
>> 
>> Well it is a timber frame structure and in the bano the peak goes up like
>> another 6 ft or so from the 9ft wall height which makes it 15ft I guess. I
>> probably actually knew how high it was at some time in the process but I
>> forget. Maybe tomorrow I’ll measure it.
>> 
>> The open peak above the kitchen is probably about 24 or 25 ft up. Maybe
>> more, I forget that too. It’s kinda spectacular. The sense I was going for 
>> when I
>> designed it. It was a challenge for the framer, who is now my buddy, but he
>> was really proud of how they managed to construct it.
>> 
>> Marshhouseaddition.blogspot.com has lots of pics.
>> 
>> --R
> 
> 
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