Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Heck, even a well built TH400 has a hard time holding up to a 4BT Cummins. Let alone a wimpy Chrysler OD auto. Mike - Original Message - From: "Jim Cathey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon? I've seen trannies rated on a per cylinder basis, suggesting that there is a maximum force per power pulse that they don't want to exceed. Yeah, the pounding that a 4B or 6B Cummins gives a tranny is one of the reasons Dodge has had tranny troubles over the years. It's _not_ a Chevy 350! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
They are all different depending on the MY but my 84 CD and 83 SD had a 1st gear slot next to the 2nd gear..it just slid back and forth sideways. (I think!) I've only seen the side gate on 500/560 gassers. I like it, but even the usual 1-2 upshift dance with the others is OK because I can hold it in first going down the hill from our house in the morning. One reason my brakes last a hell of a lot longer than my wife's! I almost never really want to force it back into first when slowing down. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
I've seen trannies rated on a per cylinder basis, suggesting that there is a maximum force per power pulse that they don't want to exceed. Yeah, the pounding that a 4B or 6B Cummins gives a tranny is one of the reasons Dodge has had tranny troubles over the years. It's _not_ a Chevy 350! -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Fmiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > "The inability to directly access 2nd in my W123 > comes to mind..." > > One detent for both 1st and second... Why?!? In my 300D, 1st is so low you would hardly ever want it if you're already moving. I do occasionally drop down into "L" (2nd, if you're already in 2nd or higher) for steep hills. I *think* if I'm in "L" from a dead stop it stays in 1st until I move the selector, but I could be wrong. Are you saying there's no way to deliberately start off in 2nd? I think that's right, and it would be helpful. 1st has so much torque at the wheels that they spin on wet pavement, to say nothing of snow or ice. Allan -- 1983 300D 1966 230
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
It has been written that: "On a bicycle, if the transmission is in a gear that's too high, it's not the transmission that suffers, it's the "engine" - your legs!" I write: Exactly, until you input operator error. Seems that when the car doesn't go in the high gear the accelerator is depressed, the bigger the hill the harder it's pressed until the car MUST be shifted down. This causes undue torque and heat on the input that would not occur in a properly shifted tranny. If you could measure the difference in pressure on the crankset bearings of the bicycle in the wrong gears it would still be a fine example of what I am saying. A good example is the Suzuki Samurai's I mess with. Many folks put the VW diesels in them with various adapter kits bolted to the stock Samurai transmission. WHile they hold up fine in the lower gears no matter how rough you are on them the heat generated in the tranny from pulling hard on the highway in high gear is what kills the input and mainshaft bearings. The overdrive button is there for this purpose. Overdrive creates tons of heat in any tranny if it's pulling hard and that heat will destroy junk US made trannies. Mike
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
I've seen trannies rated on a per cylinder basis, suggesting that there is a maximum force per power pulse that they don't want to exceed. (a trans might be rated 800ft-lb with a 8 and 600 ft-lb with a six). That said, if you watch the trans temp (especially with an automatic) and shift into 1:1 when it starts to heat up, you can get away with quote a lot. Mitch.
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
They are all different depending on the MY but my 84 CD and 83 SD had a 1st gear slot next to the 2nd gear..it just slid back and forth sideways. (I think!) On 5/25/07, Fmiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It seems than at Thu, 24 May 2007 21:52:10 -0700, John wrote: > Philip, > on your 123, D is 4th, one notch down is 3rd. Oh. You're right. (my automatic has been down for a while...) What I _meant_ to say was: "The inability to directly access 2nd in my W123 comes to mind..." One detent for both 1st and second... Why?!? -- Philip, corrected. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
It seems than at Thu, 24 May 2007 21:52:10 -0700, John wrote: > Philip, > on your 123, D is 4th, one notch down is 3rd. Oh. You're right. (my automatic has been down for a while...) What I _meant_ to say was: "The inability to directly access 2nd in my W123 comes to mind..." One detent for both 1st and second... Why?!? -- Philip, corrected.
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Philip, on your 123, D is 4th, one notch down is 3rd. On 5/24/07, Fmiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 5/24/07, Mike Canfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Actually Phillip, the exact opposite is true with diesel > > engines and manual transmissions. Most failures I have > > encountered occured due to very high temperatures > > generated by large amounts of torque running in high > > gears. There is MUCH more stress on the input and > > mainshaft bearings of a manual tranny under full torque > > in a higher gear. The lower the gear the better for the > > tranny but the worse for everything behind the tranny. It seems than at Thu, 24 May 2007 15:19:34 -0500, Zoltan wrote: > Is this the reason that automatic tranny cars with > overdrive have the overdrive-off button? (besides for > towing, etc.) Probably not. *smile* The job of the transmission is to trade speed and torque. In a perfect (no friction) transmission, horsepower-in = horsepower-out BUT, in all ratios except 1:1 (top gear in all my W123s), the shaft speed at the input is different than the shaft speed at the output. The speed ratio is the inverse of the torque ratio. So with the output shaft turning 3x slower than the input, it has 3x more torque. This is important because it is torque at the _wheel_ that moves the car. With a transmission that has overdrive (input shaft turns _slower_ than the output shaft), the engine torque is traded for wheel speed. But this means that there is less torque to push the car forward. No big deal if the road is flat, the wind is calm, and the speed is steady. But, if there is a hill, or a need to accelerate, then the wheel-speed-increase/wheel-torque-loss becomes noticeable. This hill and acceleration problem is worse if there is extra weight - 'cause cousin Jimbo in the back seat, or because of the trailer load of spare parts. I have seen a few cars that don't give the driver the control to choose each of the automatic transmission ratios. The inability to directly access 3rd in my W123 comes to mind... I don't know why the overdrive is often a button rather than a detent in the shifter gate. Maybe because it is expected to be operated more often. > Because driving around in too high a gear puts undue > stress on the transmission, yes? The torque on the input is the same regardles of the gear ratio. And the output is subject to _less_ torque in the higher gears (closer to 1:1). But as Mike suggested in a differnt post, torque seems to not be the only factor. > I often think of the example of riding a bicycle in too > high a gear for your speed. This brings awareness of the > improper gearing in the form of straining and pain. The bicycle can be a good way to think about the ratio - but there is a big difference between them. Your leg on the bicycle crank develops maximum torque at near zero RPM and it decreases as RPM increases. An internal combustion engine has zero torque at zero RPM. The torque increases with RPM for a while, then it decreases again. The two are similar in that the transmission is there to match the wheel speed/torque requirements to the limited speed range of the power source. On a bicycle, if the transmission is in a gear that's too high, it's not the transmission that suffers, it's the "engine" - your legs! > Too bad we don't have > pain gauges on cars. Then I could point to it and say to > my wife "SEE?" Yes, that _would_ be nice! --Philip, now that it's math I'm not guessing - much... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
> On 5/24/07, Mike Canfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Actually Phillip, the exact opposite is true with diesel > > engines and manual transmissions. Most failures I have > > encountered occured due to very high temperatures > > generated by large amounts of torque running in high > > gears. There is MUCH more stress on the input and > > mainshaft bearings of a manual tranny under full torque > > in a higher gear. The lower the gear the better for the > > tranny but the worse for everything behind the tranny. It seems than at Thu, 24 May 2007 15:19:34 -0500, Zoltan wrote: > Is this the reason that automatic tranny cars with > overdrive have the overdrive-off button? (besides for > towing, etc.) Probably not. *smile* The job of the transmission is to trade speed and torque. In a perfect (no friction) transmission, horsepower-in = horsepower-out BUT, in all ratios except 1:1 (top gear in all my W123s), the shaft speed at the input is different than the shaft speed at the output. The speed ratio is the inverse of the torque ratio. So with the output shaft turning 3x slower than the input, it has 3x more torque. This is important because it is torque at the _wheel_ that moves the car. With a transmission that has overdrive (input shaft turns _slower_ than the output shaft), the engine torque is traded for wheel speed. But this means that there is less torque to push the car forward. No big deal if the road is flat, the wind is calm, and the speed is steady. But, if there is a hill, or a need to accelerate, then the wheel-speed-increase/wheel-torque-loss becomes noticeable. This hill and acceleration problem is worse if there is extra weight - 'cause cousin Jimbo in the back seat, or because of the trailer load of spare parts. I have seen a few cars that don't give the driver the control to choose each of the automatic transmission ratios. The inability to directly access 3rd in my W123 comes to mind... I don't know why the overdrive is often a button rather than a detent in the shifter gate. Maybe because it is expected to be operated more often. > Because driving around in too high a gear puts undue > stress on the transmission, yes? The torque on the input is the same regardles of the gear ratio. And the output is subject to _less_ torque in the higher gears (closer to 1:1). But as Mike suggested in a differnt post, torque seems to not be the only factor. > I often think of the example of riding a bicycle in too > high a gear for your speed. This brings awareness of the > improper gearing in the form of straining and pain. The bicycle can be a good way to think about the ratio - but there is a big difference between them. Your leg on the bicycle crank develops maximum torque at near zero RPM and it decreases as RPM increases. An internal combustion engine has zero torque at zero RPM. The torque increases with RPM for a while, then it decreases again. The two are similar in that the transmission is there to match the wheel speed/torque requirements to the limited speed range of the power source. On a bicycle, if the transmission is in a gear that's too high, it's not the transmission that suffers, it's the "engine" - your legs! > Too bad we don't have > pain gauges on cars. Then I could point to it and say to > my wife "SEE?" Yes, that _would_ be nice! --Philip, now that it's math I'm not guessing - much...
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
It seems than at Thu, 24 May 2007 15:38:11 -0400, Mike wrote: > Actually Phillip, the exact opposite is true with diesel engines and manual > transmissions. Well, I _was_ talking about diesel engines and manual transmissions. I presume you mean when in a car. *smile* > Most failures I have encountered occured due to very high > temperatures generated by large amounts of torque running in high gears. > There is MUCH more stress on the input and mainshaft bearings of a manual > tranny under full torque in a higher gear. The lower the gear the better > for the tranny but the worse for everything behind the tranny. Interesting. So it isn't over-torque that causes the failure? I guess if the enemy is heat, that makes sense. But the output shaft and the counter shaft will be subject to the torque multiplication of the gearing. So if the wear is torque-induced, those will suffer. But if the cause of the wear is _not_ just torque - well, then I guess I'm barking up the wrong tree. Maybe those early failure swaps didn't use a correct flywheel... -- Philip, guessing again!
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
I am planning on swapping a 5 speed into my 230E, I stripped a 230TE bare and have all the parts to do the job. Researching the project it became obvious that MB uses different parts in a manual engine vs a auto engine. This is shown in the engine number (can't remember which one it is), so you may well have to strip down the engines and swap over the bottom end. I am planning on using the manual motor out of the 230TE and just whack the whole thing in. I really don't know how much of a fairy tale the 'turbo motors break manual transmissions' is, this is the sort of legend that comes from people putting a tired gearbox behind a fresh motor and then trying to blame the torque of the motor for their laziness in not rebuilding the gearbox. However MB may use a different diff ratio, so it may pay for you to swap diffs over as well. Anyway I am sure this sort of thing is being done all the time because the cost of rebuilding autos is becoming more expensive every day and the biggest problem is finding a tech with the skills to do the work properly. Compare that to the amount of skill required to rebuild a maual transmission. Lastly, I wouldn't bother doing this unless the car is really good and rust free. One last thing, don't forget that you have to change speedo over as well I think or figure out if it is accurate with a 5 speed, also I would recommend overhauling the slave cylinder while you got easy access. - Original Message - From: "Karl Wittnebel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 12:21 AM Subject: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon? I have an 85 123 wagon with the regular slushbox. It has only 160K mi on it and is still going strong. I have no intention of getting rid of the thing as it seems to improve with age. I recently identified a gray market 300d (sedan) of similar vintage with a bad motor which has the 5-speed, and am thinking about doing the transmission switch. Anyone ever do this before? How painful is it? I know if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but I think I would enjoy the next 200K miles more with a manual shifter, Compared to what it would cost to buy a new(er) car, this seems a reasonable investment in my driving satisfaction. Informed comments appreciated, Karl
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Curt Raymond wrote: > > IIRC he said the reasons for not having the manual trans were that emissions > where higher > because people couldn't drive as smooth as the automatic, and that the manual > would be a slug > off the line until the turbo spooled up. > The latter being the bigger factor. I talked to a fellow a couple of years ago, who once had used W115 tranny etc to convert a W116 300SD. He said it was fun, but a huge dog until the turbo spooled up. (4000lb car with 3.07 final drive would be a bit doggy with no boost)
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Exactly. The bicycle is a fine example. Mike - Original Message - From: "Zoltan Finks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:19 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon? Is this the reason that automatic tranny cars with overdrive have the overdrive-off button? (besides for towing, etc.) Because driving around in too high a gear puts undue stress on the transmission, yes? I often think of the example of riding a bicycle in too high a gear for your speed. This brings awareness of the improper gearing in the form of straining and pain. Too bad we don't have pain gauges on cars. Then I could point to it and say to my wife "SEE?" Brian On 5/24/07, Mike Canfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Actually Phillip, the exact opposite is true with diesel engines and manual transmissions. Most failures I have encountered occured due to very high temperatures generated by large amounts of torque running in high gears. There is MUCH more stress on the input and mainshaft bearings of a manual tranny under full torque in a higher gear. The lower the gear the better for the tranny but the worse for everything behind the tranny. Mike - Original Message - From: "Fmiser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon? > It seems than at Thu, 24 May 2007 11:10:51 -0400, Allan wrote: > >> I recall a statement on this list that Mercedes never paired a >> turbodiesel motor with a manual transmission, at least not in the era >> we're discussing. > > In the USA, I know that's true - but I recall hearing that in > Europe a turbo/manual combination was available. > >> People have put manual transmissions in W123 turbodiesels, but the >> torque of the motor is more than the transmissions were designed to >> handle, and they tend to break in a relatively short time. > > The biggest danger in over-torque is in low gear. The input > torque is multiplied by the gear ratio resulting in _lots_ of > torque at the output. > > The hot-rod big trucks will put 1000+ hp/2500+ lb-ft engines in > front of transmission spec'ed for 1800 lb-ft. The transmission > survives because the _driver_ is smart enough to avoid having > the engine develop maximum power in the lower gears. Once the > transmission is in high range the driver can actually use the > engine power that's available. > > My I-have-no-real-info-but-I'm-going-to-guess-anyway opinion is > that the same would be true for our cars. > > -- Philip > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Is this the reason that automatic tranny cars with overdrive have the overdrive-off button? (besides for towing, etc.) Because driving around in too high a gear puts undue stress on the transmission, yes? I often think of the example of riding a bicycle in too high a gear for your speed. This brings awareness of the improper gearing in the form of straining and pain. Too bad we don't have pain gauges on cars. Then I could point to it and say to my wife "SEE?" Brian On 5/24/07, Mike Canfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Actually Phillip, the exact opposite is true with diesel engines and manual transmissions. Most failures I have encountered occured due to very high temperatures generated by large amounts of torque running in high gears. There is MUCH more stress on the input and mainshaft bearings of a manual tranny under full torque in a higher gear. The lower the gear the better for the tranny but the worse for everything behind the tranny. Mike - Original Message - From: "Fmiser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon? > It seems than at Thu, 24 May 2007 11:10:51 -0400, Allan wrote: > >> I recall a statement on this list that Mercedes never paired a >> turbodiesel motor with a manual transmission, at least not in the era >> we're discussing. > > In the USA, I know that's true - but I recall hearing that in > Europe a turbo/manual combination was available. > >> People have put manual transmissions in W123 turbodiesels, but the >> torque of the motor is more than the transmissions were designed to >> handle, and they tend to break in a relatively short time. > > The biggest danger in over-torque is in low gear. The input > torque is multiplied by the gear ratio resulting in _lots_ of > torque at the output. > > The hot-rod big trucks will put 1000+ hp/2500+ lb-ft engines in > front of transmission spec'ed for 1800 lb-ft. The transmission > survives because the _driver_ is smart enough to avoid having > the engine develop maximum power in the lower gears. Once the > transmission is in high range the driver can actually use the > engine power that's available. > > My I-have-no-real-info-but-I'm-going-to-guess-anyway opinion is > that the same would be true for our cars. > > -- Philip > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Actually Phillip, the exact opposite is true with diesel engines and manual transmissions. Most failures I have encountered occured due to very high temperatures generated by large amounts of torque running in high gears. There is MUCH more stress on the input and mainshaft bearings of a manual tranny under full torque in a higher gear. The lower the gear the better for the tranny but the worse for everything behind the tranny. Mike - Original Message - From: "Fmiser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon? It seems than at Thu, 24 May 2007 11:10:51 -0400, Allan wrote: I recall a statement on this list that Mercedes never paired a turbodiesel motor with a manual transmission, at least not in the era we're discussing. In the USA, I know that's true - but I recall hearing that in Europe a turbo/manual combination was available. People have put manual transmissions in W123 turbodiesels, but the torque of the motor is more than the transmissions were designed to handle, and they tend to break in a relatively short time. The biggest danger in over-torque is in low gear. The input torque is multiplied by the gear ratio resulting in _lots_ of torque at the output. The hot-rod big trucks will put 1000+ hp/2500+ lb-ft engines in front of transmission spec'ed for 1800 lb-ft. The transmission survives because the _driver_ is smart enough to avoid having the engine develop maximum power in the lower gears. Once the transmission is in high range the driver can actually use the engine power that's available. My I-have-no-real-info-but-I'm-going-to-guess-anyway opinion is that the same would be true for our cars. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
It seems than at Thu, 24 May 2007 08:34:47 -0700 (PDT), Curt wrote: > I believe I remember Marshall saying this was NOT true. > IIRC he said the reasons for not having the manual trans were that > emissions where higher because people couldn't drive as smooth as > the automatic, and that the manual would be a slug off the line > until the turbo spooled up. A relative slug. Until the turbo spools, it's just like a non-turbo. And the extra power of 5 cylinder could make up for the taller differential gearing so it shouldn't be any slower than a manual 240D. But then the turbo _will_ spool up! *grin* > The latter being the bigger factor. > The turbo engine doesn't have THAT much torque... My book says: OM616 14 mkg101 lb-ft OM617 17.5 mkg 126.6 lb-ft OM617A 25.5 mkg 170 lb-ft That shows the turbo as having 33% more torque than the non-turbo 5 cylinder. --Philip, who dreams of a W123 turbo with a manual transmission
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
It seems than at Thu, 24 May 2007 11:10:51 -0400, Allan wrote: > I recall a statement on this list that Mercedes never paired a > turbodiesel motor with a manual transmission, at least not in the era > we're discussing. In the USA, I know that's true - but I recall hearing that in Europe a turbo/manual combination was available. > People have put manual transmissions in W123 turbodiesels, but the > torque of the motor is more than the transmissions were designed to > handle, and they tend to break in a relatively short time. The biggest danger in over-torque is in low gear. The input torque is multiplied by the gear ratio resulting in _lots_ of torque at the output. The hot-rod big trucks will put 1000+ hp/2500+ lb-ft engines in front of transmission spec'ed for 1800 lb-ft. The transmission survives because the _driver_ is smart enough to avoid having the engine develop maximum power in the lower gears. Once the transmission is in high range the driver can actually use the engine power that's available. My I-have-no-real-info-but-I'm-going-to-guess-anyway opinion is that the same would be true for our cars. -- Philip
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Karl, Yes the swap is possible, but the transition is rather painful if you plan on doing it properly. Late last Fall I did such a conversion, albeit a 4 speed manual, into a 1980 300td. It took over 50 hours in labor with a fully outfitted shop. Costs were high on parts as the owner wanted it to be a truly seamless conversion with all new components installed as much as possible. The flywheel needs to be balanced to match the old one. On the 617 the flywheels are not neutral balanced, but balanced at the factory with the crank and harmonic balancer. A good machinist with a proper balancer will have no problem doing this for you. Note: the m617 has a different flywheel than the m616. While the 616 flywheel is compatible, the 617 yields a better result. I would suggest all new clutch components including the hydraulics, have the driveshaft rebuilt by a reputable shop, plus you will need to have the car re-aligned afterwards as the weight distribution does change and this will affect the wheel alignment. Also, while in the dash to replace the pedal block, I would suggest replacing all of the vacuum actuators for the klima. As you will be pulling the dash anyways, you might as well make the most of it. Of course, shifter rebuild with new bushings all around too. Keep in mind, if your car is a turbo, there are a few caveats that need to be heeded that have been covered in this and other forums in length. Marshall Booth has expounded on the matter a number of times. Having not driven a m617t with a manual transmission, I am unable to offer opinions on drivability and performance. WRT torque, there is no worry. The same gearboxes were used with the venerable m110 which puts out far more torque than the m617t will in stock form. I would recommend having the gearbox examined prior if it is an unknown quantity. They are not inexpensive to make correct. The end result was excellent on the 1980 300td; with gains in many areas, better fuel economy, lower running temps, slightly increased oil pressure, and of course a nicer driving vehicle if you prefer a clutch, that is. This is not a project for the feint of heart, but worthwhile if you fancy a stick shift. On a project like this you will not recoup your investment in labor or expenses should you resell, but for a keeper it is a fine upgrade. You may view pictures of the 1980 300td conversion here: http://www.mbdiesel.net/300TDmanualswap.html. Best regards, Mathieu Old World Automotive www.oldworldauto.com On May 24, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Karl Wittnebel wrote: I have an 85 123 wagon with the regular slushbox. It has only 160K mi on it and is still going strong. I have no intention of getting rid of the thing as it seems to improve with age. I recently identified a gray market 300d (sedan) of similar vintage with a bad motor which has the 5-speed, and am thinking about doing the transmission switch. Anyone ever do this before? How painful is it? I know if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but I think I would enjoy the next 200K miles more with a manual shifter, Compared to what it would cost to buy a new(er) car, this seems a reasonable investment in my driving satisfaction. Informed comments appreciated, Karl - Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Karl, If you do the swap do you want to sell me your automatic tranny? I could use it for my 83 300TD. Where are you? Thanks, Mike - Original Message - From: "Karl Wittnebel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 10:51 AM Subject: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon? I have an 85 123 wagon with the regular slushbox. It has only 160K mi on it and is still going strong. I have no intention of getting rid of the thing as it seems to improve with age. I recently identified a gray market 300d (sedan) of similar vintage with a bad motor which has the 5-speed, and am thinking about doing the transmission switch. Anyone ever do this before? How painful is it? I know if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but I think I would enjoy the next 200K miles more with a manual shifter, Compared to what it would cost to buy a new(er) car, this seems a reasonable investment in my driving satisfaction. Informed comments appreciated, Karl - Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
I've never heard of an MB manual transmission dying from anything other than lack of lube or putting 90W hypoid in. It obviously can stand up to a 300D, cause that is how it was built. Turbo in stock form does not make that much difference. Karl, is the 300D a NA or turbo engine? Loren At 10:34 AM 5/24/2007, you wrote: I believe I remember Marshall saying this was NOT true. IIRC he said the reasons for not having the manual trans were that emissions where higher because people couldn't drive as smooth as the automatic, and that the manual would be a slug off the line until the turbo spooled up. The latter being the bigger factor. The turbo engine doesn't have THAT much torque... -Curt Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:10:51 -0400 From: Allan Streib <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Mercedes Discussion List Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I recall a statement on this list that Mercedes never paired a turbodiesel motor with a manual transmission, at least not in the era we're discussing. People have put manual transmissions in W123 turbodiesels, but the torque of the motor is more than the transmissions were designed to handle, and they tend to break in a relatively short time. If your wagon is not a turbo, then it should be doable, I'd guess. Allan Karl Wittnebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have an 85 123 wagon with the regular slushbox. It has only 160K mi > on it and is still going strong. I have no intention of getting rid of > the thing as it seems to improve with age. > > I recently identified a gray market 300d (sedan) of similar vintage > with a bad motor which has the 5-speed, and am thinking about doing the > transmission switch. > > Anyone ever do this before? How painful is it? > > I know if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but I think I would enjoy the > next 200K miles more with a manual shifter, Compared to what it would > cost to buy a new(er) car, this seems a reasonable investment in my > driving satisfaction. > > Informed comments appreciated, > Karl -- 1983 300D 1966 230 - Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Can't be done! Send me the flywheel, clutch parts, trans, driveshaft and pedal assembly, along with the clutch hydraulics. For that absolution, I'll give ya a couple of hundred bucks! Loren (obviously green with envy) At 09:51 AM 5/24/2007, you wrote: I have an 85 123 wagon with the regular slushbox. It has only 160K mi on it and is still going strong. I have no intention of getting rid of the thing as it seems to improve with age. I recently identified a gray market 300d (sedan) of similar vintage with a bad motor which has the 5-speed, and am thinking about doing the transmission switch. Anyone ever do this before? How painful is it? I know if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but I think I would enjoy the next 200K miles more with a manual shifter, Compared to what it would cost to buy a new(er) car, this seems a reasonable investment in my driving satisfaction. Informed comments appreciated, Karl - Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
I believe I remember Marshall saying this was NOT true. IIRC he said the reasons for not having the manual trans were that emissions where higher because people couldn't drive as smooth as the automatic, and that the manual would be a slug off the line until the turbo spooled up. The latter being the bigger factor. The turbo engine doesn't have THAT much torque... -Curt Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:10:51 -0400 From: Allan Streib <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Mercedes Discussion List Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I recall a statement on this list that Mercedes never paired a turbodiesel motor with a manual transmission, at least not in the era we're discussing. People have put manual transmissions in W123 turbodiesels, but the torque of the motor is more than the transmissions were designed to handle, and they tend to break in a relatively short time. If your wagon is not a turbo, then it should be doable, I'd guess. Allan Karl Wittnebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have an 85 123 wagon with the regular slushbox. It has only 160K mi > on it and is still going strong. I have no intention of getting rid of > the thing as it seems to improve with age. > > I recently identified a gray market 300d (sedan) of similar vintage > with a bad motor which has the 5-speed, and am thinking about doing the > transmission switch. > > Anyone ever do this before? How painful is it? > > I know if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but I think I would enjoy the > next 200K miles more with a manual shifter, Compared to what it would > cost to buy a new(er) car, this seems a reasonable investment in my > driving satisfaction. > > Informed comments appreciated, > Karl -- 1983 300D 1966 230 - Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu May 24 15:41:58 2007 Received: from [204.174.16.201] (helo=mailout1.parasun.com) by server8.arterytc8.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) id 1HrFRu-0003kF-7B for mercedes@okiebenz.com; Thu, 24 May 2007 15:41:58 + Received: from rrcs-24-39-223-119.nys.biz.rr.com ([24.39.223.119] helo=user4ykwxvt62x) by mailout1.parasun.com with smtp (Exim 4.54) id 1HrFRr-0008Cy-72 for mercedes@okiebenz.com; Thu, 24 May 2007 08:41:55 -0700 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: "Mike Canfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:41:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Subject: Re: [MBZ] no accounting for taste...Restoring Bundts X-BeenThere: mercedes@okiebenz.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9.cp2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Mercedes Discussion List List-Id: Mercedes Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: <http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Archive: <http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com> List-Post: <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Subscribe: <http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:41:58 - 5 bucks each on Saturday special at the PnP here. Most weekends anyway. $10 for aluminum of any sort. Both with or without tires. Mike - Original Message - From: "Craig McCluskey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 12:32 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] no accounting for taste...Restoring Bundts > On Wed, 23 May 2007 21:09:59 -0700 Redghost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > P.S. U-Pull bundts are $20 here. (I know you know, Clay.) >> >> $20 That is pretty spendy >> >> I am still able to get normal bundts for $12.50, those chrome jobbies >> were $15 > > So how much are steel wheels for an '82 240D (W123) to use for snow tires? > > > > Craig > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Anyone ever do this before? How painful is it? I have done it to a 190D. It was tedious, and time-consuming. In all likelihood your car would be down for weeks. More, if you take this (excellent) opportunity to give TLC to everything that is now easily accessible. Mine still isn't done, really. Shift boot isn't right. http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/mb190d.html -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
Allan Streib wrote: People have put manual transmissions in W123 turbodiesels, but the torque of the motor is more than the transmissions were designed to handle, and they tend to break in a relatively short time. Does it really break the tranny or does it just wear the clutch down quickly?
[MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon?
I have an 85 123 wagon with the regular slushbox. It has only 160K mi on it and is still going strong. I have no intention of getting rid of the thing as it seems to improve with age. I recently identified a gray market 300d (sedan) of similar vintage with a bad motor which has the 5-speed, and am thinking about doing the transmission switch. Anyone ever do this before? How painful is it? I know if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but I think I would enjoy the next 200K miles more with a manual shifter, Compared to what it would cost to buy a new(er) car, this seems a reasonable investment in my driving satisfaction. Informed comments appreciated, Karl - Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu May 24 15:10:58 2007 Received: from [12.2.42.104] (helo=odin.envisagenow.com) by server8.arterytc8.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) id 1HrExu-00014r-Gz for mercedes@okiebenz.com; Thu, 24 May 2007 15:10:58 + Received: from STREIB ([12.2.42.56]) by odin.envisagenow.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 24 May 2007 11:10:55 -0400 Received: by STREIB (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 24 May 2007 11:10:51 -0400 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Allan Streib <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:10:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Karl Wittnebel's message of "Thu, 24 May 2007 07:51:36 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.19 (windows-nt) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 May 2007 15:10:55.0511 (UTC) FILETIME=[B9FB6270:01C79E15] Cc: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody ever swap a 5-speed into 123 wagon? X-BeenThere: mercedes@okiebenz.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9.cp2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Mercedes Discussion List List-Id: Mercedes Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: <http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Archive: <http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com> List-Post: <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Subscribe: <http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:10:58 - I recall a statement on this list that Mercedes never paired a turbodiesel motor with a manual transmission, at least not in the era we're discussing. People have put manual transmissions in W123 turbodiesels, but the torque of the motor is more than the transmissions were designed to handle, and they tend to break in a relatively short time. If your wagon is not a turbo, then it should be doable, I'd guess. Allan Karl Wittnebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have an 85 123 wagon with the regular slushbox. It has only 160K mi > on it and is still going strong. I have no intention of getting rid of > the thing as it seems to improve with age. > > I recently identified a gray market 300d (sedan) of similar vintage > with a bad motor which has the 5-speed, and am thinking about doing the > transmission switch. > > Anyone ever do this before? How painful is it? > > I know if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but I think I would enjoy the > next 200K miles more with a manual shifter, Compared to what it would > cost to buy a new(er) car, this seems a reasonable investment in my > driving satisfaction. > > Informed comments appreciated, > Karl -- 1983 300D 1966 230
