Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Hello Tom Just when you thougth it was safe. -- I have studied the pictures and have I think two basic questions: 1. I see a lower grease fitting in the steeering nuckle carrier in Fig. 33-3/3 and in Fig 33 - 3/7, but I don't see an upper grease fitting. Is there one? If so, where? 2. I am unsure how the kingpin-steering nuckle assembly is secured to the upper control arm. It is very clear it fits in a tapered hold in the lower control arm. OMG what a strong assembly. Fig 33 3/3 seems to show the head of the king pin does not engage the upper control arm on top of the pin. Fig 33 3/7 may show the assembly is on one side, perhaps behind, the upper control arm. There are two bolts up there, a threaded bolt (2) and a cam bolt (3), which makes me wonder just how the bolt and upper control arm are connected. Thanks Robert, enabler of ed Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: 10/13/2007 8:27:20 PM Subject: RE: RE: King pin installation OK, then look at the following three pictures. Picture1 is of the page that includes the specs. Also included on the page is a drawing of the top bottom bolt with required play for receiving lubricant. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture1.jpg Picture2 is of the page that shows the entire assembly, including the 2 bolts (item 2 in drawing on right) with required play for receiving lubricant. Picture2 also contains the procedure for reaming the kingpin bushings to size. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture2.jpg Picture3 shows the threaded bolt with required play for receiving lubricant in greater detail (item 8). The groove that's cut in the center is used to distribute the grease from the grease fitting all the way around the threaded bolt with required play for receiving lubricant so that the grease can easily penetrate the threads. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture3.jpg Any other questions? I have one of these assemblies, new, in my garage. .Do you want me to disassemble it, measure it confirm that it really does have some free play? Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: Robert Bigham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 6:03 PM To: Tom Hargrave; mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: RE: RE: King pin installation I continue to reject the idea that bolts holding a front suspension together, like holding a steering arm to a spindle, have slop and actually work back and forth in use, and this is normal or expected. Come on. I could be convinced by a drawing showning the parts and the clearance specified for the bolts to work back and forth. It is not necessary that there be slop and movement between the male and female parts of threads where a bolt is tight for grease to travel down threads. Each part of the threads, that is, the male part and female part, is a helix, and grease will travel down the part of the larger female helix in the that contains the clearance between the two helices. Or is that helixes ? All that is mechanically necessary for grease to travel down threads is that the male and female parts be dimensioned such that they do not add up to a solid body. Ordinary 60 degree treads, acme, and square threads are dimensioned to not add up to a solid body. Sensitive measurements will show threaded bolts will move forward and backward (or up and down, if one prefers) in threaded holes when not tightened or otherwise bottomed. A common situation which all have seen that illustrates that grease can travel along threads that contain a tightly made up bolt down is the ability of penetrating oil to eventually reach the bottom of threads in a hole which contains a bolt that does not want out, and is encouraged to release itself by application of penetrating oil, with or without added heat. Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: RE: RE: King pin installation The bottom bolt is a conventional bolt but the top bolt is actually an assembly that's also used in one of the front end adjustments. And that same top bolt has enough clearance in the threads to accept lubrication (grease) and consequently, has a small amount of free play. Thanks, Tom www.kegkits.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
At 10:11 AM 10/17/2007, you wrote: Hello Tom Just when you thougth it was safe. -- I have studied the pictures and have I think two basic questions: 1. I see a lower grease fitting in the steeering nuckle carrier in Fig. 33-3/3 and in Fig 33 - 3/7, but I don't see an upper grease fitting. Is there one? If so, where? Yes, on top of the kingpin 2. I am unsure how the kingpin-steering nuckle assembly is secured to the upper control arm. It is very clear it fits in a tapered hold in the lower control arm. OMG what a strong assembly. the bolt holds eccentric washers, allowing adjustment of alignment. THe washers hold the upper control arm. Fig 33 3/3 seems to show the head of the king pin does not engage the upper control arm on top of the pin. Fig 33 3/7 may show the assembly is on one side, perhaps behind, the upper control arm. There are two bolts up there, a threaded bolt (2) and a cam bolt (3), which makes me wonder just how the bolt and upper control arm are connected. See above. It makes sense once you start to take it apart. assembly is in reverse order, except with snug fitting parts. Just tear into it. I used a jack under the lower control arm to ease the LCA down after it has been loosened from the kingpin, a controlled release of the spring pressure. for assembly, i jacked up the LCA to seat the knuckle in the kingpin.. Thanks Robert, enabler of ed Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: 10/13/2007 8:27:20 PM Subject: RE: RE: King pin installation OK, then look at the following three pictures. Picture1 is of the page that includes the specs. Also included on the page is a drawing of the top bottom bolt with required play for receiving lubricant. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture1.jpg Picture2 is of the page that shows the entire assembly, including the 2 bolts (item 2 in drawing on right) with required play for receiving lubricant. Picture2 also contains the procedure for reaming the kingpin bushings to size. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture2.jpg Picture3 shows the threaded bolt with required play for receiving lubricant in greater detail (item 8). The groove that's cut in the center is used to distribute the grease from the grease fitting all the way around the threaded bolt with required play for receiving lubricant so that the grease can easily penetrate the threads. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture3.jpg Any other questions? I have one of these assemblies, new, in my garage. .Do you want me to disassemble it, measure it confirm that it really does have some free play? Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: Robert Bigham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 6:03 PM To: Tom Hargrave; mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: RE: RE: King pin installation I continue to reject the idea that bolts holding a front suspension together, like holding a steering arm to a spindle, have slop and actually work back and forth in use, and this is normal or expected. Come on. I could be convinced by a drawing showning the parts and the clearance specified for the bolts to work back and forth. It is not necessary that there be slop and movement between the male and female parts of threads where a bolt is tight for grease to travel down threads. Each part of the threads, that is, the male part and female part, is a helix, and grease will travel down the part of the larger female helix in the that contains the clearance between the two helices. Or is that helixes ? All that is mechanically necessary for grease to travel down threads is that the male and female parts be dimensioned such that they do not add up to a solid body. Ordinary 60 degree treads, acme, and square threads are dimensioned to not add up to a solid body. Sensitive measurements will show threaded bolts will move forward and backward (or up and down, if one prefers) in threaded holes when not tightened or otherwise bottomed. A common situation which all have seen that illustrates that grease can travel along threads that contain a tightly made up bolt down is the ability of penetrating oil to eventually reach the bottom of threads in a hole which contains a bolt that does not want out, and is encouraged to release itself by application of penetrating oil, with or without added heat. Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: RE: RE: King pin installation The bottom bolt is a conventional bolt but the top bolt is actually an assembly that's also used in one of the front end adjustments. And that same top bolt has enough clearance in the threads to accept lubrication (grease) and consequently, has a small amount of free play. Thanks, Tom www.kegkits.com ___
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Somehow this message went astray earlier, and I go it back this AM. Sorry. Thank you for the pages. I downloaded/saved them, and will print and study them to see what I think they show presently. I will then either agree with you or not, depending on what I decide. Fair enough? I don't want you to dismantle the new assembly you have in your garage, although it is kind of you to offer. I may ask for a picture of it, although IIRC, there is a drawing of it in one of the pictures you sent. Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: 10/13/2007 8:27:20 PM Subject: RE: RE: King pin installation OK, then look at the following three pictures. Picture1 is of the page that includes the specs. Also included on the page is a drawing of the top bottom bolt with required play for receiving lubricant. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture1.jpg Picture2 is of the page that shows the entire assembly, including the 2 bolts (item 2 in drawing on right) with required play for receiving lubricant. Picture2 also contains the procedure for reaming the kingpin bushings to size. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture2.jpg Picture3 shows the threaded bolt with required play for receiving lubricant in greater detail (item 8). The groove that's cut in the center is used to distribute the grease from the grease fitting all the way around the threaded bolt with required play for receiving lubricant so that the grease can easily penetrate the threads. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture3.jpg Any other questions? I have one of these assemblies, new, in my garage. Do you want me to disassemble it, measure it confirm that it really does have some free play? Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: Robert Bigham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 6:03 PM To: Tom Hargrave; mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: RE: RE: King pin installation I continue to reject the idea that bolts holding a front suspension together, like holding a steering arm to a spindle, have slop and actually work back and forth in use, and this is normal or expected. Come on. I could be convinced by a drawing showning the parts and the clearance specified for the bolts to work back and forth. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation: Pages from service manual
OK, I downloaded and saved the pictures and text, and will study them later. Thank you for this information. No, I don't want you to disassemble the new assembly you have stashed in your garage. But it is kind of you to offer. Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:25:25 -0500 From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation OK, then look at the following three pictures. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Hi Fred, I see that VW used a fixed reamer as did Ford. I seem to remember reading that Dr. Porsche visited Henry Ford while working on the design of the Strength Through Joy machine. Could he have been influenced to use a fixed reamer for king pin bushings then? And of course the VW link pin king pin front end is mega tough and durable. Best regards Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:03:18 -0400 Frederick W Moir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: [MBZ] King Pin Reamer Greetings and Salutations Attached is the type of reamer that I used on many VW king pins when I worked for VW dealer circa 1970. Smooth clean thumb push fit. Fred Moir Lynn MA ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Any other questions? I have one of these assemblies, new, in my garage. Do you want me to disassemble it, measure it confirm that it really does have some free play? Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 No need Tom, if it assembles it has clearance. Simply stated, if a pin goes into a hole it has clearance. You cannot put a 1. dia. pin in a 1. dia. hole without using force or heat. I've been in aerospace quality too long to get sucked into that one. This entire thread on what are called running clearances is serving to remind me how few of us are mechanics. Samuel Colt and his place with interchangeable parts. I spent 2 years at Colt Firearms in Hartford Connecticut learning to assemble 38 specials. Most common tool was a file and rawhide hammer. Yes, parts were interchangeable. They had to be fitted to work VERY WELL. -- Regards, Peter T. Arnold 2007 HHR, 2.4L/Auto, LT2, 15Kmi, No problems! 1987 300SDL 280KMI Inherited by Grandson 1995 F-250 PowerChoke 199Kmi 1954 Metropolitan Convertible, Hanger Queen Wife has a Cruizer, 80 Kmi, as reliable as an Ice Box, the car that is! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
I believe the reamers are to get the correct clearance if the parts do not fit correctly out of the box. I seem to remember that you had to use spacers on the bottom nut too, but I don't know that for sure, I don't have that manual here anymore -- returned it to the owner. New kingpins can be a fiddly thing to install, but if you do it right and keep them greased (every 3000 miles without fail), they pretty much last forever. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Peter, You are correct on both accounts. When the bushing is pressed into the casting, the brass distorts, making the ID smaller than out of the box. The stack-up of machined casting tolerances plus bushing tolerances plus kingpin tolerances make reaming necessary. Mercedes could have designed the entire assembly to fit without reaming but then they would have had to hold much tighter tolerances on 7 surfaces: 2 - top bottom casting machine work 2 - Bushing OD's 2 - Bushing ID's 1 - kingpin finish Instead of just 2 surfaces: 2 - Bushing ID's, reamed to match to new kingpin OD If needed, the shims are installed to limit vertical travel. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Frederick Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 10:18 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation I believe the reamers are to get the correct clearance if the parts do not fit correctly out of the box. I seem to remember that you had to use spacers on the bottom nut too, but I don't know that for sure, I don't have that manual here anymore -- returned it to the owner. New kingpins can be a fiddly thing to install, but if you do it right and keep them greased (every 3000 miles without fail), they pretty much last forever. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Reamers are used to have a final fit on the kingpin bushings after the bushings are pressed in. Pressing in the bushings swedges the bushing, so the bore is smaller than necessary for a good fit. reaming leaves 1 to 2 thousandth clearance for the kingpin to fit. When I had to put new kingpins in a 111, the wear ended up being almost all on the kingpin and not on the bushing. when I slipped the new kingpin into the bushings, it was a snug fit, so I did not replace the bushings. If anyone has manually replaced the sleeves for OM 616/617 engines, they are a bear to push in without a press. You can actually see the cylinder bore getting smaller. This is why the new sleeves are bored AFTER being installed in the block. Same principle with kingpins and bushings. With current machine tools and machining practices, I believe bushings and the kingpins and the bore where the bushings are pushed COULD be made accurately enough so that no reaming is required, however in the 50s and 60s, the machining was not accurate enough, so the tolerances were usually + - ,001 for fine work and + - .005 for most work. When you add up the total possible variation for all 4 surfaces, it could result in either an interference fit, and wheels no turny, or way to loose for accurate steering, thus the reaming step to assure perfect fit and alignment of both bushings. OOPs! it looks like Tom already addressed this. Oh well, another $.02 At 10:17 AM 10/14/2007, you wrote: I believe the reamers are to get the correct clearance if the parts do not fit correctly out of the box. I seem to remember that you had to use spacers on the bottom nut too, but I don't know that for sure, I don't have that manual here anymore -- returned it to the owner. New kingpins can be a fiddly thing to install, but if you do it right and keep them greased (every 3000 miles without fail), they pretty much last forever. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Gang, I think it's worth remembering that king pins on a '39 GMC truck might be of a slightly different design than a '69 Mercedes, or for that matter a '48 to '89 Citroen 2CV. I can tell you with the 2CV there is no reaming whatsoever; the tricky part is that you need a 15-ton press to get the kingpin into the suspension arm! The 2CV's bushings do not require reaming; they are made to tolerance. If fit isn't that important, wouldn't MB just make the bushings and pins to exact tolerances and have them a drop-in fit? Presumably this is the answer to the debate... correct fit must be fairly important or there'd be no reaming specified. D. -- David Bruckmann, Palo Alto, CA Current Reality: 1970 Citroen DS21 Pallas (170,000 km) Goettin 1972 Mercedes-Benz 280 SEL 4.5 (160,000 km) Albtraum 1976 Citroen 2CV6 (145,000 km) Piaf http://dolly.bruckmann.com/ 1979 Mercedes-Benz 300D (390,000 km) Brown Betty Shady Past: 1971 Citroen DS21 Pallas (137,000km), 1972 Citroen DS21 Pallas (502,000km) 1978 Mercedes-Benz 300D (1,200,000 km or thereabouts) Sieglinde 1979 Mercedes-Benz 300TD non-turbo (260,000 km) Diva 1981 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston (120,000km), 1988 Merkur XR4Ti (209,000km) 1981 Peugeot 505 GRD (350,000km), 1984 MB 300TD (385,000 km) Gertraud 1985 Toyota Camry The Slamry (330,000km) 1986 Renault 9 1.7L (155,000 km) 2002 VW Golf GLS TDI (74,000 km) -- ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Hello Tom If you say 000 589 03 53 is a adjustable reamer, I have to believe you. Using an adjustable reamer to size bushings for a new ground O.D. pin is a near stone age way of doing things. except I don't think they had actual reamers in the stone age or shortly afterward. If you want to do it that way, that's OK with me. The rest of the world, or most of it, is too busy to waste time like that, and will use more modern methods. Reaming with fixed reamers and honing come to mind. In at least one case with which I am familiar (because my son did it and told me about it) wherein a lot of stock had to come out of the new bushings for a big truck, boring one end close to final size on a mill, flipping the spindle, finding center, and boring the other end is another alternative method. The intent was to get very close by boring and finish by honing. In the real world, the pin slipped through both bushings after the second bore, and that's where the job stopped. It's still giving satisfactory service, and I can promise you if it were not, the shop would have heard about it, rather forcefully. If a kingin will slip easily through both bushings and not require being hammered into place, that's close enough. I reject a claim that slop in a bolted connection is part of the specified clearance for kin pins. Bolted connections in front suspensions have to be tight or pinned or wired. Otherwise they may come apart, and that could ruin your whole day. Having lost a front wheel (that another put up, honest) on a Model A Ford once in the distant past, I know something about front suspensions coming apart. I once broke a lower control arm in a low speed collision with a curb after sliding on ice. But you do it however you wish. That's OK with me. In racing engine paractice, wherein correct clearances and fits are much more critical than king pins ever thought about, here is one version of successful practice: Inspect, and as appropriate, size/resize main and/or rod bearing housings to a standard size. Observe the inside diameters of installed bearing shells. Specify the sizes of main and rod journals to attain the desired clearance to the crank grinder. Have experience with the particular crank grinder. If assembly proceeds normally, do no further inspection of sizes. There is no iterative resizing and trial assembly in the highly cutthroat racing world. Measure, cut to size, go on. That's the way they, or at least some of them, do it. If you want to be successful in the real world, fit kinpins to a nice oiled slip fit through both bushings, and be fat, dumb, and happy. You don't have to be fat unless you want to. Or dumb either. If you want to torture yourself with antiquated methods that originated before the time of interchangeable parts and accurate measurements, it's your time, and you can waste it however you wish. I recommend others use more modern methods, which also tend to produce a superior outcome. -30- Fri, 12 Oct 2007 15:08:27 -0500 Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation Stating until the specified radial play of the kingpin has been attained pretty much means remove material until the correct tolerances are met. Changing a dimension (in steel, brass, wood, etc) until a dimension is met is by default a multi-step process. Also, including the bolt play in the final spec guarantees you have to assemble everything before measuring. Otherwise, you would not be including the bolt introduced play into the measurement. And a 000 589 03 53 is a adjustable reamer. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
The bottom bolt is a conventional bolt but the top bolt is actually an assembly that's also used in one of the front end adjustments. And that same top bolt has enough clearance in the threads to accept lubrication (grease) and consequently, has a small amount of free play. Thanks, Tom www.kegkits.com Original Message From: Robert Bigham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10/13/07 12:33 PM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: King pin installation -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Hello Tom If you say 000 589 03 53 is a adjustable reamer, I have to believe you. Using an adjustable reamer to size bushings for a new ground O.D. pin is a near stone age way of doing things. except I don't think they had actual reamers in the stone age or shortly afterward. If you want to do it that way, that's OK with me. The rest of the world, or most of it, is too busy to waste time like that, and will use more modern methods. Reaming with fixed reamers and honing come to mind. In at least one case with which I am familiar (because my son did it and told me about it) wherein a lot of stock had to come out of the new bushings for a big truck, boring one end close to final size on a mill, flipping the spindle, finding center, and boring the other end is another alternative method. The intent was to get very close by boring and finish by honing. In the real world, the pin slipped through both bushings after the second bore, and that's where the job stopped. It's still giving satisfactory service, and I can promise you if it were not, the shop would have heard about it, rather forcefully. If a kingin will slip easily through both bushings and not require being hammered into place, that's close enough. I reject a claim that slop in a bolted connection is part of the specified clearance for kin pins. Bolted connections in front suspensions have to be tight or pinned or wired. Otherwise they may come apart, and that could ruin your whole day. Having lost a front wheel (that another put up, honest) on a Model A Ford once in the distant past, I know something about front suspensions coming apart. I once broke a lower control arm in a low speed collision with a curb after sliding on ice. But you do it however you wish. That's OK with me. In racing engine paractice, wherein correct clearances and fits are much more critical than king pins ever thought about, here is one version of successful practice: Inspect, and as appropriate, size/resize main and/or rod bearing housings to a standard size. Observe the inside diameters of installed bearing shells. Specify the sizes of main and rod journals to attain the desired clearance to the crank grinder. Have experience with the particular crank grinder. If assembly proceeds normally, do no further inspection of sizes. There is no iterative resizing and trial assembly in the highly cutthroat racing world. Measure, cut to size, go on. That's the way they, or at least some of them, do it. If you want to be successful in the real world, fit kinpins to a nice oiled slip fit through both bushings, and be fat, dumb, and happy. You don't have to be fat unless you want to. Or dumb either. If you want to torture yourself with antiquated methods that originated before the time of interchangeable parts and accurate measurements, it's your time, and you can waste it however you wish. I recommend others use more modern methods, which also tend to produce a superior outcome. -30- Fri, 12 Oct 2007 15:08:27 -0500 Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation Stating until the specified radial play of the kingpin has been attained pretty much means remove material until the correct tolerances are met. Changing a dimension (in steel, brass, wood, etc) until a dimension is met is by default a multi-step process. Also, including the bolt play in the final spec guarantees you have to assemble everything before measuring. Otherwise, you would not be including the bolt introduced play into the measurement. And a 000 589 03 53 is a adjustable reamer. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
My point exactly. But MB goes overboard with a lot of their mechanical designs. But, maybe that's one reason they last so long? And Ford the other examples used in the opposing arguements are not so critical with tolerances maybe this is one reason thay don't last so long? I do know one thing for sure, regardless of who the original manufacturer was. With a sleeve bearing, make the fit as close as possible while allowing enough clearance for proper lubrication you will get maximum life out of the bearing. This is because you have maximum load bearing between the two surfaces, which translates into minimum wear. Tom www.kegkits.com Original Message From: David Bruckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10/13/07 11:39 AM To: Mercedes List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Gang, I think it's worth remembering that king pins on a '39 GMC truck might be of a slightly different design than a '69 Mercedes, or for that matter a '48 to '89 Citroen 2CV. I can tell you with the 2CV there is no reaming whatsoever; the tricky part is that you need a 15-ton press to get the kingpin into the suspension arm! The 2CV's bushings do not require reaming; they are made to tolerance. If fit isn't that important, wouldn't MB just make the bushings and pins to exact tolerances and have them a drop-in fit? Presumably this is the answer to the debate... correct fit must be fairly important or there'd be no reaming specified. D. -- David Bruckmann, Palo Alto, CA Current Reality: 1970 Citroen DS21 Pallas (170,000 km) Goettin 1972 Mercedes-Benz 280 SEL 4.5 (160,000 km) Albtraum 1976 Citroen 2CV6 (145,000 km) Piaf http://dolly.bruckmann.com/ 1979 Mercedes-Benz 300D (390,000 km) Brown Betty Shady Past: 1971 Citroen DS21 Pallas (137,000km), 1972 Citroen DS21 Pallas (502,000km) 1978 Mercedes-Benz 300D (1,200,000 km or thereabouts) Sieglinde 1979 Mercedes-Benz 300TD non-turbo (260,000 km) Diva 1981 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston (120,000km), 1988 Merkur XR4Ti (209,000km) 1981 Peugeot 505 GRD (350,000km), 1984 MB 300TD (385,000 km) Gertraud 1985 Toyota Camry The Slamry (330,000km) 1986 Renault 9 1.7L (155,000 km) 2002 VW Golf GLS TDI (74,000 km) -- ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
I continue to reject the idea that bolts holding a front suspension together, like holding a steering arm to a spindle, have slop and actually work back and forth in use, and this is normal or expected. Come on. I could be convinced by a drawing showning the parts and the clearance specified for the bolts to work back and forth. To me, it defies common sense to assert that there is slop, and further, that front ends do not come apart because the bolts that are intentionally loose on installation do not eventually complete their loosening and fall out, or alternatively the bolts do not wear out because of the slop and consequent back and forth motion. Perhaps they do on Planet Zork. I think not on Earth, third rock from the sun. I will make an exception for things like spring shackles, where the pins are generally not bottomed and can work backward and forward. Spring shackle bolts will eventually wear out.l although they will last a very long time if kept greased. It is not necessary that there be slop and movement between the male and female parts of threads where a bolt is tight for grease to travel down threads. Each part of the threads, that is, the male part and female part, is a helix, and grease will travel down the part of the larger female helix in the that contains the clearance between the two helices. Or is that helixes ? All that is mechanically necessary for grease to travel down threads is that the male and female parts be dimensioned such that they do not add up to a solid body. Ordinary 60 degree treads, acme, and square threads are dimensioned to not add up to a solid body. Sensitive measurements will show threaded bolts will move forward and backward (or up and down, if one prefers) in threaded holes when not tightened or otherwise bottomed. It would also be possible to provide a grease channel by a broached slot much like a keyway cut longitudinally across the female part of the threads. Old South Bend lathes have slots like that for oil holding felts on some plain bearings, which are admittedly not threaded. A common situation which all have seen that illustrates that grease can travel along threads that contain a tightly made up bolt down is the ability of penetrating oil to eventually reach the bottom of threads in a hole which contains a bolt that does not want out, and is encouraged to release itself by application of penetrating oil, with or without added heat. If the two parts add up to a solid body, or worse, if they interfere, which can happen when bolts and nuts are galvanized and threading does not allow for the thickness of galvanizing, it will be a muscle building operation or worse to run the threads on each other. I learned that the hard way. The more they differ from a solid body in sum, the greater ease with which grease can penetrate. A special bolt could easily have a special thread with standard pitch with thinner than standard threads at the root. We can cut chips almost any way we wish. Please think about what you are proposing, and see if you really want your front supension, or your friend's front suspension, put up with slop in some important bolts that hold it together. I don't think you do. --- Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: RE: RE: King pin installation The bottom bolt is a conventional bolt but the top bolt is actually an assembly that's also used in one of the front end adjustments. And that same top bolt has enough clearance in the threads to accept lubrication (grease) and consequently, has a small amount of free play. Thanks, Tom www.kegkits.com Robert Bigham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Sent: 10/13/07 12:33 PM I reject a claim that slop in a bolted connection is part of the specified clearance for kin pins. Bolted connections in front suspensions have to be tight or pinned or wired. Otherwise they may come apart, and that could ruin your whole day. Having lost a front wheel (that another put up, honest) on a Model A Ford once in the distant past, I know something about front suspensions coming apart. I once broke a lower control arm in a low speed collision with a curb after sliding on ice. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
OK, then look at the following three pictures. Picture1 is of the page that includes the specs. Also included on the page is a drawing of the top bottom bolt with required play for receiving lubricant. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture1.jpg Picture2 is of the page that shows the entire assembly, including the 2 bolts (item 2 in drawing on right) with required play for receiving lubricant. Picture2 also contains the procedure for reaming the kingpin bushings to size. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture2.jpg Picture3 shows the threaded bolt with required play for receiving lubricant in greater detail (item 8). The groove that's cut in the center is used to distribute the grease from the grease fitting all the way around the threaded bolt with required play for receiving lubricant so that the grease can easily penetrate the threads. http://www.kegkits.com/Mercedes/Picture3.jpg Any other questions? I have one of these assemblies, new, in my garage. Do you want me to disassemble it, measure it confirm that it really does have some free play? Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: Robert Bigham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 6:03 PM To: Tom Hargrave; mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: RE: RE: King pin installation I continue to reject the idea that bolts holding a front suspension together, like holding a steering arm to a spindle, have slop and actually work back and forth in use, and this is normal or expected. Come on. I could be convinced by a drawing showning the parts and the clearance specified for the bolts to work back and forth. To me, it defies common sense to assert that there is slop, and further, that front ends do not come apart because the bolts that are intentionally loose on installation do not eventually complete their loosening and fall out, or alternatively the bolts do not wear out because of the slop and consequent back and forth motion. Perhaps they do on Planet Zork. I think not on Earth, third rock from the sun. I will make an exception for things like spring shackles, where the pins are generally not bottomed and can work backward and forward. Spring shackle bolts will eventually wear out.l although they will last a very long time if kept greased. It is not necessary that there be slop and movement between the male and female parts of threads where a bolt is tight for grease to travel down threads. Each part of the threads, that is, the male part and female part, is a helix, and grease will travel down the part of the larger female helix in the that contains the clearance between the two helices. Or is that helixes ? All that is mechanically necessary for grease to travel down threads is that the male and female parts be dimensioned such that they do not add up to a solid body. Ordinary 60 degree treads, acme, and square threads are dimensioned to not add up to a solid body. Sensitive measurements will show threaded bolts will move forward and backward (or up and down, if one prefers) in threaded holes when not tightened or otherwise bottomed. It would also be possible to provide a grease channel by a broached slot much like a keyway cut longitudinally across the female part of the threads. Old South Bend lathes have slots like that for oil holding felts on some plain bearings, which are admittedly not threaded. A common situation which all have seen that illustrates that grease can travel along threads that contain a tightly made up bolt down is the ability of penetrating oil to eventually reach the bottom of threads in a hole which contains a bolt that does not want out, and is encouraged to release itself by application of penetrating oil, with or without added heat. If the two parts add up to a solid body, or worse, if they interfere, which can happen when bolts and nuts are galvanized and threading does not allow for the thickness of galvanizing, it will be a muscle building operation or worse to run the threads on each other. I learned that the hard way. The more they differ from a solid body in sum, the greater ease with which grease can penetrate. A special bolt could easily have a special thread with standard pitch with thinner than standard threads at the root. We can cut chips almost any way we wish. Please think about what you are proposing, and see if you really want your front supension, or your friend's front suspension, put up with slop in some important bolts that hold it together. I don't think you do. --- Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: RE: RE: King pin installation The bottom bolt is a conventional bolt but the top bolt is actually an assembly that's also used in one of the front end adjustments. And that same top bolt has enough clearance in the threads to accept lubrication (grease) and consequently, has a small
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Regarding fitting kin pin bushings, I earlier said nuf sed I lied. It is a misconception to think that king pin fit in bushings is critical. It does need to be right, but it is not in the class with piston fit in cylinders or bearing shell fit in big ends of connecting rods. It is much more tolerant than those critical 'fits. I now recall that 1949-54 Chevrolet passenger cars have king pin bushings that are full floating in the spindle and full floating on the pin. No press in fit for bushings, no ream or hone to fit on pins. Just slip them in. Takes minutes. And they, too, will last forever if the owner will keep them greased. Manufacturers, in my experience, specify a fixed reamer, that is, a non adjustable reamer, for king pin (also called spindle bolt) bushing sizing. Ford for an outstanding example. Ford used the same fixed king pin reamer beginning with 1928 Model A cars until the last 1953 Ford passenger cars with king pins. Ball joints came in 1954 on Fords, except that pickups kept king pins for many years in the Twin I Beam front end. An adjustable reamer is an old time mechanic's tool for opening up bushings that won't accept the pin unless reamed a bit larger. They are not intended for reaming to a precise size, and can't be set to cut a precise size. To set one to a particular size fairly close would require a ground ring gauge and lots of time spent setting. The way they are used is to ream and try. Reset. Ream and try again. Once the pin fits the way you want it, stop. You can fit king pin bushings this way, simply because the fit is not critical, but it is not a very good way. It is better than some makeshift alternatives I can conceive. __ Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:50:49 -0500 Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation Fit is critical. Too tight and it will gall. Too loose and you will have too much play and excelerated wear. Thanks, Tom 256-656-1924 Robert Bigham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Re: [MBZ] King pin installation And the fit is not critical, although there are specifications. A nice oiled slip fit or no tighter than a light thumb push fit is what you need. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Robert Bigham wrote: Regarding fitting kin pin bushings, I earlier said nuf sed I lied. I now recall that 1949-54 Chevrolet passenger cars have king pin bushings that are full floating in the spindle and full floating on the pin. No press in fit for bushings, no ream or hone to fit on pins. Just slip them in. Takes minutes. And they, too, will last forever if the owner will keep them greased. Yes. I remember doing that job on a '53 BelAire back around '61. A simple job as I recall. Wray ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Wow. I believe you about what the Benzes say. I would love to see it somewhere in their writings. Of course I can't find it in my 123 manuals. If that's what they say, that's what they say. I am amazed. BTW. what size radial clearance are we talking about? What, if anything, do they say to do if the last reaming results in a radial clearance just a fuzz greater than the specification? Scrap the job and start over? There are much simpler and easier ways to attain the same end. And adjustable reamers are one of the poorest ways to attain an accurate, that is, equal to a specification, clearance. The much older ways of calling fits, i.e., slip, thumb push, palm push, light press, and so on, all represent clearances or interferences, as the case may be. In this case they are radial, between pin and bushing, and are not different in principle than (MSWord would say from; I say to hell with them.) the clearance between connecting rod big end and crankpin. These ways of calling fits were developed by the 19th century railroad shops, who wrote that part of the book on machining and machine work, and are still true today. Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: RE: [MBZ] King pin installation Mercedes specs a adjustable reamer with instructions to ream the bushings until you achieve the correct radial play in the king pin. This is far from a single ream job involves stepping up the size until the king pin just fits, then assembling the king pin, measure the radial play with a dial indicator, disassembling and reaming slightly larger. Then you re-assemble re-measure the radial play. This cycle is repeated until the radial play is correct. You are correct about lubrication. It's the key to long king pin life. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 Robert Bigham wrote Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation Regarding fitting kin pin bushings, I earlier said nuf sed I lied. It is a misconception to think that king pin fit in bushings is critical. It does need to be right, but it is not in the class with piston fit in cylinders or bearing shell fit in big ends of connecting rods. It is much more tolerant than those critical 'fits. I now recall that 1949-54 Chevrolet passenger cars have king pin bushings that are full floating in the spindle and full floating on the pin. No press in fit for bushings, no ream or hone to fit on pins. Just slip them in. Takes minutes. And they, too, will last forever if the owner will keep them greased. Manufacturers, in my experience, specify a fixed reamer, that is, a non adjustable reamer, for king pin (also called spindle bolt) bushing sizing. Ford for an outstanding example. Ford used the same fixed king pin reamer beginning with 1928 Model A cars until the last 1953 Ford passenger cars with king pins. Ball joints came in 1954 on Fords, except that pickups kept king pins for many years in the Twin I Beam front end. An adjustable reamer is an old time mechanic's tool for opening up bushings that won't accept the pin unless reamed a bit larger. They are not intended for reaming to a precise size, and can't be set to cut a precise size. To set one to a particular size fairly close would require a ground ring gauge and lots of time spent setting. The way they are used is to ream and try. Reset. Ream and try again. Once the pin fits the way you want it, stop. You can fit king pin bushings this way, simply because the fit is not critical, but it is not a very good way. It is better than some makeshift alternatives I can conceive. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Mercedes specs a adjustable reamer with instructions to ream the bushings until you achieve the correct radial play in the king pin. This is far from a single ream job involves stepping up the size until the king pin just fits, then assembling the king pin, measure the radial play with a dial indicator, disassembling and reaming slightly larger. Then you re-assemble re-measure the radial play. This cycle is repeated until the radial play is correct. You are correct about lubrication. It's the key to long king pin life. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Bigham Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 3:19 AM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation Regarding fitting kin pin bushings, I earlier said nuf sed I lied. It is a misconception to think that king pin fit in bushings is critical. It does need to be right, but it is not in the class with piston fit in cylinders or bearing shell fit in big ends of connecting rods. It is much more tolerant than those critical 'fits. I now recall that 1949-54 Chevrolet passenger cars have king pin bushings that are full floating in the spindle and full floating on the pin. No press in fit for bushings, no ream or hone to fit on pins. Just slip them in. Takes minutes. And they, too, will last forever if the owner will keep them greased. Manufacturers, in my experience, specify a fixed reamer, that is, a non adjustable reamer, for king pin (also called spindle bolt) bushing sizing. Ford for an outstanding example. Ford used the same fixed king pin reamer beginning with 1928 Model A cars until the last 1953 Ford passenger cars with king pins. Ball joints came in 1954 on Fords, except that pickups kept king pins for many years in the Twin I Beam front end. An adjustable reamer is an old time mechanic's tool for opening up bushings that won't accept the pin unless reamed a bit larger. They are not intended for reaming to a precise size, and can't be set to cut a precise size. To set one to a particular size fairly close would require a ground ring gauge and lots of time spent setting. The way they are used is to ream and try. Reset. Ream and try again. Once the pin fits the way you want it, stop. You can fit king pin bushings this way, simply because the fit is not critical, but it is not a very good way. It is better than some makeshift alternatives I can conceive. __ Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:50:49 -0500 Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation Fit is critical. Too tight and it will gall. Too loose and you will have too much play and excelerated wear. Thanks, Tom 256-656-1924 Robert Bigham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Re: [MBZ] King pin installation And the fit is not critical, although there are specifications. A nice oiled slip fit or no tighter than a light thumb push fit is what you need. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Tom: I'm having trouble with fumblefingers and can't seem to get this to the list. This is the third try, and maybe I have not misspelled it this time. Sorry. Fit not critical. Needs to be good. Does not need diamond bored accuracy or optical flat clearances. Reamers will not attain extreme accuracy. Fit as I stated and there will be no problems. This is not rocket science; it is an old fashioned way of hanging a spindle. Zillions of successful installations illustrate my point. Nuf sed. Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote To: Robert Bigham [EMAIL PROTECTED]; mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: 10/10/2007 1:52:33 PM Subject: RE: [MBZ] King pin installation Fit is critical. Too tight and it will gall. Too loose and you will have too much play and excelerated wear. Thanks, Tom 256-656-1924 Robert Bigham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote To: mercedes@okiebenz.com mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation And the fit is not critical, although there are specifications. A nice oiled slip fit or no tighter than a light thumb push fit is what you need. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Thank you for the information; it is more than interesting. The quoted language leaves room for other understandings: I see nothing that says reamer 000 589 03 53 is an adjustable reamer, but merely language saying to use it or a suitable commercially available, adjustable reamer with guide bushing, in other words, either use the Benz tool or an adjustable reamer of the generally available commercial pattern. I see nothing that says that a multi-step ream, trial assemby, ream again, procedure is required or needed. Let us all recall that Eli Whitney developed the concept of interchangeable parts about 200 yr ago, and that industrial production has not used trial assembly and iterative resizing as a routine method since then. Things are manufactured to size, which includes some tolerance. If sizing is critical and must be more accurate than can be manufactured readily, parts are sorted after manufacture to tighten the tolerance on accepted parts. Clearance (same meaning as radial play) 0.3 - 0.5 mm, wear limit 0.8 mm. Auf Englisch, 1 mm = 0.039 in., clearance 0.012 in. - 0.020 in, wear limit 0.032.in. unless I busted the conversion pretty badly. That is hardly a close fit. It is just a bit more precise than scale accuracy, that is, measurements that can be made well enough with a steel pocket rule, which is accurate to at least 1/64 in. or 0.016 in. . A nice oiled slip fit, which is what I said in the first instance, will be plenty good, and automobile king pins work fine with either no or tiny visible play as shown by rocking. Either clearance will endure indefinitely if kept greased. If one insists on actual measurements, caliper the pin, caliper the hole. Use nice modern digital calipers for easy results. Use Starrett Yankee spring calipers if you wish, and check the difference between inside and outside calipers with a feeler gauge or micrometer the inside and outside calipers. King pin bushings are one of the simplest auto machine shop jobs. There is no sense in trying to make them a federal case. --- Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Date: 10/12/2007 9:11:06 AM Subject: RE: [MBZ] King pin installation From the Series 108, 109, 111, 113 service manual, Section 33-3/3.17: Ream bearing bushings by means of reamer 000 589 03 53 or a suitable commercially available, adjustable reamer with guide bushing until the specified radial play of the kingpin has been attained (for dimensions refer to Job No. 33-0). Job No. 33-0 lists: - Radial play = 0.3 - 0.5 Perm. Wear limit = 0.8 And the measurement includes the total kingpin + threaded bolt mounting on steering knuckle top and bottom. In other words, the actual king pin radial play is even less because the bolt threads have some play so that they can receive lubricant. To do this by the book, you have to ream, assemble, measure, disassemble, ream a little more, reassemble, etc, etc. I'm sure that machine shops shortcut the process by measuring the kingpin with a micrometer, choosing the appropriate reamer, reaming and then trial assembling to make sure it's not too tight by feel. I'm just as sure that they don't verify it's not too loose. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 Robert Bigham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Friday, October 12, 2007 4:29 AM To: Tom Hargrave; mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: RE: [MBZ] King pin installation Wow. I believe you about what the Benzes say. I would love to see it somewhere in their writings. Of course I can't find it in my 123 manuals. If that's what they say, that's what they say. I am amazed. BTW. what size radial clearance are we talking about? What, if anything, do they say to do if the last reaming results in a radial clearance just a fuzz greater than the specification? Scrap the job and start over? There are much simpler and easier ways to attain the same end. And adjustable reamers are one of the poorest ways to attain an accurate, that is, equal to a specification, clearance. The much older ways of calling fits, i.e., slip, thumb push, palm push, light press, and so on, all represent clearances or interferences, as the case may be. In this case they are radial, between pin and bushing, and are not different in principle than (MSWord would say from; I say to hell with them.) the clearance between connecting rod big end and crankpin. These ways of calling fits were developed by the 19th century railroad shops, who wrote that part of the book on machining and machine work, and are still true today. Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: RE: [MBZ] King pin installation Mercedes specs a adjustable reamer with instructions to ream the bushings until you achieve the correct
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
From the Series 108, 109, 111, 113 service manual, Section 33-3/3.17: Ream bearing bushings by means of reamer 000 589 03 53 or a suitable commercially available, adjustable reamer with guide bushing until the specified radial play of the kingpin has been attained (for dimensions refer to Job No. 33-0). Job No. 33-0 lists: - Radial play = 0.3 - 0.5 Perm. Wear limit = 0.8 And the measurement includes the total kingpin + threaded bolt mounting on steering knuckle top and bottom. In other words, the actual king pin radial play is even less because the bolt threads have some play so that they can receive lubricant. To do this by the book, you have to ream, assemble, measure, disassemble, ream a little more, reassemble, etc, etc. I'm sure that machine shops shortcut the process by measuring the kingpin with a micrometer, choosing the appropriate reamer, reaming and then trial assembling to make sure it's not too tight by feel. I'm just as sure that they don't verify it's not too loose. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: Robert Bigham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:29 AM To: Tom Hargrave; mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: RE: [MBZ] King pin installation Wow. I believe you about what the Benzes say. I would love to see it somewhere in their writings. Of course I can't find it in my 123 manuals. If that's what they say, that's what they say. I am amazed. BTW. what size radial clearance are we talking about? What, if anything, do they say to do if the last reaming results in a radial clearance just a fuzz greater than the specification? Scrap the job and start over? There are much simpler and easier ways to attain the same end. And adjustable reamers are one of the poorest ways to attain an accurate, that is, equal to a specification, clearance. The much older ways of calling fits, i.e., slip, thumb push, palm push, light press, and so on, all represent clearances or interferences, as the case may be. In this case they are radial, between pin and bushing, and are not different in principle than (MSWord would say from; I say to hell with them.) the clearance between connecting rod big end and crankpin. These ways of calling fits were developed by the 19th century railroad shops, who wrote that part of the book on machining and machine work, and are still true today. Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: RE: [MBZ] King pin installation Mercedes specs a adjustable reamer with instructions to ream the bushings until you achieve the correct radial play in the king pin. This is far from a single ream job involves stepping up the size until the king pin just fits, then assembling the king pin, measure the radial play with a dial indicator, disassembling and reaming slightly larger. Then you re-assemble re-measure the radial play. This cycle is repeated until the radial play is correct. You are correct about lubrication. It's the key to long king pin life. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 Robert Bigham wrote Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation Regarding fitting kin pin bushings, I earlier said nuf sed I lied. It is a misconception to think that king pin fit in bushings is critical. It does need to be right, but it is not in the class with piston fit in cylinders or bearing shell fit in big ends of connecting rods. It is much more tolerant than those critical 'fits. I now recall that 1949-54 Chevrolet passenger cars have king pin bushings that are full floating in the spindle and full floating on the pin. No press in fit for bushings, no ream or hone to fit on pins. Just slip them in. Takes minutes. And they, too, will last forever if the owner will keep them greased. Manufacturers, in my experience, specify a fixed reamer, that is, a non adjustable reamer, for king pin (also called spindle bolt) bushing sizing. Ford for an outstanding example. Ford used the same fixed king pin reamer beginning with 1928 Model A cars until the last 1953 Ford passenger cars with king pins. Ball joints came in 1954 on Fords, except that pickups kept king pins for many years in the Twin I Beam front end. An adjustable reamer is an old time mechanic's tool for opening up bushings that won't accept the pin unless reamed a bit larger. They are not intended for reaming to a precise size, and can't be set to cut a precise size. To set one to a particular size fairly close would require a ground ring gauge and lots of time spent setting. The way they are used is to ream and try. Reset. Ream and try again. Once the pin fits the way you want it, stop. You can fit king pin bushings this way, simply because the fit is not critical, but it is not a very good way
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Stating until the specified radial play of the kingpin has been attained pretty much means remove material until the correct tolerances are met. Changing a dimension (in steel, brass, wood, etc) until a dimension is met is by default a multi-step process. Also, including the bolt play in the final spec guarantees you have to assemble everything before measuring. Otherwise, you would not be including the bolt introduced play into the measurement. And a 000 589 03 53 is a adjustable reamer. You are correct about the conversion. 0.3mm = 0.0118 0.5mm = 0.0197 0.8mm = 0.0315 Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: Robert Bigham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 1:28 PM To: Tom Hargrave; mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: RE: [MBZ] King pin installation Thank you for the information; it is more than interesting. The quoted language leaves room for other understandings: I see nothing that says reamer 000 589 03 53 is an adjustable reamer, but merely language saying to use it or a suitable commercially available, adjustable reamer with guide bushing, in other words, either use the Benz tool or an adjustable reamer of the generally available commercial pattern. I see nothing that says that a multi-step ream, trial assemby, ream again, procedure is required or needed. Let us all recall that Eli Whitney developed the concept of interchangeable parts about 200 yr ago, and that industrial production has not used trial assembly and iterative resizing as a routine method since then. Things are manufactured to size, which includes some tolerance. If sizing is critical and must be more accurate than can be manufactured readily, parts are sorted after manufacture to tighten the tolerance on accepted parts. Clearance (same meaning as radial play) 0.3 - 0.5 mm, wear limit 0.8 mm. Auf Englisch, 1 mm = 0.039 in., clearance 0.012 in. - 0.020 in, wear limit 0.032.in. unless I busted the conversion pretty badly. That is hardly a close fit. It is just a bit more precise than scale accuracy, that is, measurements that can be made well enough with a steel pocket rule, which is accurate to at least 1/64 in. or 0.016 in. . A nice oiled slip fit, which is what I said in the first instance, will be plenty good, and automobile king pins work fine with either no or tiny visible play as shown by rocking. Either clearance will endure indefinitely if kept greased. If one insists on actual measurements, caliper the pin, caliper the hole. Use nice modern digital calipers for easy results. Use Starrett Yankee spring calipers if you wish, and check the difference between inside and outside calipers with a feeler gauge or micrometer the inside and outside calipers. King pin bushings are one of the simplest auto machine shop jobs. There is no sense in trying to make them a federal case. --- Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Date: 10/12/2007 9:11:06 AM Subject: RE: [MBZ] King pin installation From the Series 108, 109, 111, 113 service manual, Section 33-3/3.17: Ream bearing bushings by means of reamer 000 589 03 53 or a suitable commercially available, adjustable reamer with guide bushing until the specified radial play of the kingpin has been attained (for dimensions refer to Job No. 33-0). Job No. 33-0 lists: - Radial play = 0.3 - 0.5 Perm. Wear limit = 0.8 And the measurement includes the total kingpin + threaded bolt mounting on steering knuckle top and bottom. In other words, the actual king pin radial play is even less because the bolt threads have some play so that they can receive lubricant. To do this by the book, you have to ream, assemble, measure, disassemble, ream a little more, reassemble, etc, etc. I'm sure that machine shops shortcut the process by measuring the kingpin with a micrometer, choosing the appropriate reamer, reaming and then trial assembling to make sure it's not too tight by feel. I'm just as sure that they don't verify it's not too loose. Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.kegkits.com 256-656-1924 Robert Bigham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Friday, October 12, 2007 4:29 AM To: Tom Hargrave; mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: RE: [MBZ] King pin installation Wow. I believe you about what the Benzes say. I would love to see it somewhere in their writings. Of course I can't find it in my 123 manuals. If that's what they say, that's what they say. I am amazed. BTW. what size radial clearance are we talking about? What, if anything, do they say to do if the last reaming results in a radial clearance just a fuzz greater than the specification? Scrap the job and start over? There are much simpler and easier ways to attain the same end. And adjustable reamers are one of the poorest ways to attain an accurate, that is, equal to a specification
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
I can't speak for the prevailing practice, but that with which I am familiar in auto machine shops is that king pin bushings are honed to fit the pins. This is a very routine auto machine shop job similar to honing connnecting rod little end bushings to size. And the fit is not critical, although there are specifications. A nice oiled slip fit or no tighter than a light thumb push fit is what you need. This is true of old Ford pickups, big trucks, and old cars that use king pins instead of ball joints. Manufacturers' service manuals usually speak of reaming the bushings to size, which requires a suitable reamer. There's nothing wrong with good reaming, and I like it better than honing, perhaps because I believe deep down the honing leaves gritters in the bushings. But I've known of set after set that were honed. AFAIK they don't crater, and I think I'd know it if they did. They seem to endure as long as the owners will keep them greased. Pins and bushings will last forever, like more than 300,000 miles on an old Ford pickup, if greased regularly. Make that frequently. How I know this ought to be obvious. ___ Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:33:18 -0700 From: David Bruckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: Re: [MBZ] W108 4.5: The nightmare begins King pins kits are about $200 (does both sides) from Rusty. But I think the labour can get pricey because there's some machining involved to install them. D. From: Kaleb C. Striplin, work [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote So how much are king pins? Never messed with them before. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730 FSBO Supervisor andrew strasfogel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] W108 4.5: The nightmare begins Wandering all over the road might mean you need new king pins. This is bad (expensive!!) news if true... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
Fit is critical. Too tight and it will gall. Too loose and you will have too much play and excelerated wear. Thanks, Tom 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: Robert Bigham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mercedes@okiebenz.com mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: 10/10/07 2:15 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation I can't speak for the prevailing practice, but that with which I am familiar in auto machine shops is that king pin bushings are honed to fit the pins. This is a very routine auto machine shop job similar to honing connnecting rod little end bushings to size. And the fit is not critical, although there are specifications. A nice oiled slip fit or no tighter than a light thumb push fit is what you need. This is true of old Ford pickups, big trucks, and old cars that use king pins instead of ball joints. Manufacturers' service manuals usually speak of reaming the bushings to size, which requires a suitable reamer. There's nothing wrong with good reaming, and I like it better than honing, perhaps because I believe deep down the honing leaves gritters in the bushings. But I've known of set after set that were honed. AFAIK they don't crater, and I think I'd know it if they did. They seem to endure as long as the owners will keep them greased. Pins and bushings will last forever, like more than 300,000 miles on an old Ford pickup, if greased regularly. Make that frequently. How I know this ought to be obvious. ___ Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:33:18 -0700 From: David Bruckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: Re: [MBZ] W108 4.5: The nightmare begins King pins kits are about $200 (does both sides) from Rusty. But I think the labour can get pricey because there's some machining involved to install them. D. From: Kaleb C. Striplin, work [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote So how much are king pins? Never messed with them before. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730 FSBO Supervisor andrew strasfogel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] W108 4.5: The nightmare begins Wandering all over the road might mean you need new king pins. This is bad (expensive!!) news if true... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] King pin installation
IIRC we took the parts to a small auto machine shop,. He pressed out the old bushings and pressed in the new; fitted the kingpin, and didn't charge us too much. Might pay to call for prices first. Gerry - - Original Message - From: Tom Hargrave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fit is critical. Too tight and it will gall. Too loose and you will have too much play and excelerated wear. -Original Message- From: Robert Bigham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mercedes@okiebenz.com mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: 10/10/07 2:15 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] King pin installation I can't speak for the prevailing practice, but that with which I am familiar in auto machine shops is that king pin bushings are honed to fit the pins. This is a very routine auto machine shop job similar to honing connnecting rod little end bushings to size. And the fit is not critical, although there are specifications. A nice oiled slip fit or no tighter than a light thumb push fit is what you need. This is true of old Ford pickups, big trucks, and old cars that use king pins instead of ball joints. Manufacturers' service manuals usually speak of reaming the bushings to size, which requires a suitable reamer. There's nothing wrong with good reaming, and I like it better than honing, perhaps because I believe deep down the honing leavesgritters in the bushings. But I've known of set after set that were honed. AFAIK they don't crater, and I think I'd know it if they did. They seem to endure as long as the owners will keep them greased. Pins and bushings will last forever, like more than 300,000 miles on an old Ford pickup, if greased regularly. Make that frequently. How I know this ought to be obvious. __ Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:33:18 -0700 From: David Bruckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Subject: Re: [MBZ] W108 4.5: The nightmare begins King pins kits are about $200 (does both sides) from Rusty. But I think the labour can get pricey because there's some machining involved to install them. D. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
