Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 12:53:35 -0400 Floyd Thursby via Mercedes
 wrote:

> These were likely short-term transients.  But if the surge breaker 
> breaks the power to the panel during a voltage transient (of whatever 
> duration) it does its job, then if it fries that is just a $108 problem 
> rather than a $500 SC unit problem or TVs etc.?  Do I have this right?  
> I'm trying to figure out the best way to deal with this, and if the 
> lightning aspect can be helped to, that would be good.
> 
> If I understand correctly, putting one of these things in near the main 
> breaker in the panel causes the main breaker to trip -- the surge 
> breaker shorts the power to ground so as to trip the main breaker when 
> it senses surges/transients, etc.

The surge arrestor will cause the breaker to trip if the current drawn by
the surge arrestor goes above the breaker's (time-dependent) trip point.
How long that takes is determined by how much above the circuit breaker's
rating the current is (the higher the current is above the rating, the
quicker the breaker will trip, up to the time required for the mechanism
to move).

The performance of things depends upon the impedance of your AC supply.

Say, for example, your 200 A service voltage drops 10 volts from no load
to 200 A. That means a source impedance of 0.05 ohm.

Now, say you get 270 V on your service and your surge arrestor clamps at
250 V. Thus, there is a 20 V potential your surge arrestor has to drop
the voltage. This would mean a 20/0.05 = 400 A current through the surge
arrestor.

Now say the breaker trips in 25 seconds.[1] That would mean the surge
arrestor has to dissipate,

P = I * E = 400 A * 250 V = 100,000 W = 100,000 J/s

U = P * T = 100,000 J/s * 25 s = 2,500,000 J

That's a LOT of energy!

This fact was incorporated in the Los Alamos National Laboratory
Electrical Safety Standards by recognizing the commercial utility
represents an infinite energy source, which is most dangerous in arc
flash accidents (something that usually happens only on 480 V and above).

Craig


[1] Circuit Breaker Characteristic Trip Curves and Coordination
Class 0600, Schneider Electric Bulletin No. 0600DB0105, Cedar Rapids,
IA, USA, August 2001, p2.

Downloaded from:
http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/Molded%20Case%20Circuit%20Breakers/0100-400%20A%20Frame%20FA-LA/FA-FC-FH/0600DB0105.pdf

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

These were likely short-term transients.  But if the surge breaker 
breaks the power to the panel during a voltage transient (of whatever 
duration) it does its job, then if it fries that is just a $108 problem 
rather than a $500 SC unit problem or TVs etc.?  Do I have this right?  
I'm trying to figure out the best way to deal with this, and if the 
lightning aspect can be helped to, that would be good.


If I understand correctly, putting one of these things in near the main 
breaker in the panel causes the main breaker to trip -- the surge 
breaker shorts the power to ground so as to trip the main breaker when 
it senses surges/transients, etc.


Or they also have surge breakers just for one circuit that just trips 
that one circuit, so if I got one of those for the AC unit it would only 
protect that device, not everything else on the panel too.  As long as I 
am putting one in I might as well go for the whole panel protection.


--R


On 7/29/16 12:43 PM, Craig via Mercedes wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 12:17:05 -0400 Floyd Thursby via Mercedes
 wrote:


The manager of the other system on Seabrook Island, just down the road,
said they were getting voltage readings on a 480V line of 420-540V, all
over the map ...

She says the powerco won't guarantee clean power on the Island, so we
are all pretty much screwed on the cost of the equipment.  Nice. So I
need to look at getting some surge protectors on my AC units (220V 30A
circuits) -- are there line surge protectors I can wire in at the
shutoffs by the units?  Or at the panel?

Contrary to what the others have said, surge suppressors are NOT suitable
for this job!

A surge arrestor will indeed clip surges from motors and lightning. These
are short-term excursions from the normal power.

The power company putting out 270 V (or more) on a 220/240 V line is not
necessarily a sort-term excursion. If it lasts any significant time (say,
tens of seconds), it WILL burn out the surge arrestor.


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com



--
--FT


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 12:17:05 -0400 Floyd Thursby via Mercedes
 wrote:

> The manager of the other system on Seabrook Island, just down the road, 
> said they were getting voltage readings on a 480V line of 420-540V, all 
> over the map ...
>
> She says the powerco won't guarantee clean power on the Island, so we 
> are all pretty much screwed on the cost of the equipment.  Nice. So I 
> need to look at getting some surge protectors on my AC units (220V 30A 
> circuits) -- are there line surge protectors I can wire in at the 
> shutoffs by the units?  Or at the panel?

Contrary to what the others have said, surge suppressors are NOT suitable
for this job!

A surge arrestor will indeed clip surges from motors and lightning. These
are short-term excursions from the normal power.

The power company putting out 270 V (or more) on a 220/240 V line is not
necessarily a sort-term excursion. If it lasts any significant time (say,
tens of seconds), it WILL burn out the surge arrestor.


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
July 29, 2016 at 8:50 AM

 Turns out cheap PC's is what they wanted, like
everybody else. (All hail Windows and the ability to play solitaire at
your desk.) That company is gone now.

-- Jim
I love Active directory Group  Policies for that reason.   I can lock 
those bozos out of solitare, minsweeper and whatever.   Even if they 
drag in the software and rename the exe.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> The basic job of a UPS is to replace the power when gets too
> low.  It may do nothing if it's too high.


My APC and FerrUPS units all will cut over to battery if the power is too
low, too high, or out-of-range on frequency.  The FerrUPS units also have a
mode where they're only doing power conditioning, and will just cut off and
not go to battery if the power is bad enough.  They are the 'always-on'
type of unit.  They're large, heavy, hot, noisy, inefficient, and
expensive.  Of the four 'big guns' I have, only one is in service, on the
computer cluster.  An APC 2kVA.  The rest are all in 'reserve'.

That said, except for lightning strikes bad power *should* not damage your
electronics, not if it is well-designed to begin with.
But a lot of it isn't.  I have a story about bad power in Puerto Rico: a
bank branch there had a lot of our equipment in the 80's.  Power there was
unreliable, so the bank had an automatic backup generator.  High winds came
up from an unusual direction, and started slapping the area's high-voltage
power feed lines together.  The backup system's contactor fused in the
shore power direction, and the bank watched helplessly as the power bounced
on and off with the wind, with who knows what kinds of bad inductive and
other surges due to this mess.  After a few minutes this stopped, and there
were curls of smoke coming from all kinds of dead office equipment.  Every
bit of our gear was running perfectly, as if nothing had happened.  They
were impressed.  We were still using CVT linear power supplies at that
time, which sure didn't hurt.  It's hard to kill heavy iron and copper.
 (This is the same technology used by the FerrUPS units.)  Also, we
designed very conservatively, and tested/abused the crap out of it before
entering production.  Yes, our gear was on the expensive side, but we
(erroneously as it turned out) believed that reliability was a top concern
in the banking industry.  Turns out cheap PC's is what they wanted, like
everybody else.  (All hail Windows and the ability to play solitaire at
your desk.)  That company is gone now.

-- Jim
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

Thanks.  I think I'm going to get one of those surge breakers that sits 
right at the panel breaker, should provide some protection to all the 
circuits instead of just one surge breaker on the AC unit.  They have an 
LED indicator to show when they are still working, so that is an 
indicator if they have fried too.


--FT


On 7/29/16 5:07 AM, fmiser via Mercedes wrote:

Floyd wrote:

Looked like a power hit but there were no storms
in the area, so it was the powerco sending out trash power,
voltage up and down, surges, etc.

The manager of the other system on Seabrook Island, just
down the road, said they were getting voltage readings on a
480V line of 420-540V,



It was exactly the time my AC unit board blew out



She says the powerco won't guarantee clean power on the
Island, so we are all pretty much screwed on the cost of
the equipment.  Nice. So I need to look at getting some
surge protectors on my AC units (220V 30A circuits) -- are
there line surge protectors I can wire in at the shutoffs
by the units?  Or at the panel?


The best place for that kind of protection is at the service
entrance.  I know there are devices that sorta attached
between the meter and the meter base.  That will do a _great_
job of keeping the uglies out of the house.  It will _not_
keep lightning out if the strike is close by - 'cause it will
come in through the walls and "infect" all electrically
conductive substances.


I guess I need to get some little UPSs or surge protectors
for my TVs and stereo equipment too.  I have been thinking
about that anyway as there are lightning hits around quite
often, so that makes sense, and now with the AC unit.


The basic job of a UPS is to replace the power when gets too
low.  It may do nothing if it's too high.

SurgeX is a top brand for high quality TVSS (transient
voltage suppression system), especially for audio, video, and
other system that have non-power wires between gear plugged
into different outlets.

Lowell Mfg makes good units for similar applications.

That said, if the air conditioner is NOT connected to any
other gear plugged into other outlets, a cheap MOV TVSS is
suitable.  Keep in mind, the MOV is a sacrificial type
protector and once it's "worn out" it usually fails
silently.  That is, everything still works, but the
protection is gone.

The idea in almost all TVS systems is to short the supply
line anytime the voltage is too high.   This happens very
fast.  But if the transient is big enough, or long enough, it
will trip the fuse or circuit breaker.  So for computer gear,
it's a good idea to put the TVSS in front of the UPS.

Also, I recall Mitch mentioning some forums recommending a
independent ground rod for the air conditioner.

   !!!  THIS IS A BAD IDEA  !!!
It will _cause_ problems, not solve them.  And it's
dangerous.  NEC (National Electric Code) is very clear about
NOT using independent grounds rods.  ALL ground wires MUST
connect to one ground point.  The ground point can have
multiple rods connected together but all service equipment
grounds must be connected at the same place.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com



--
--FT


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[fmiser via Mercedes]

Floyd wrote:

Looked like a power hit but there were no storms
in the area, so it was the powerco sending out trash power,
voltage up and down, surges, etc.

The manager of the other system on Seabrook Island, just
down the road, said they were getting voltage readings on a
480V line of 420-540V,



It was exactly the time my AC unit board blew out



She says the powerco won't guarantee clean power on the
Island, so we are all pretty much screwed on the cost of
the equipment.  Nice. So I need to look at getting some
surge protectors on my AC units (220V 30A circuits) -- are
there line surge protectors I can wire in at the shutoffs
by the units?  Or at the panel?


The best place for that kind of protection is at the service
entrance.  I know there are devices that sorta attached
between the meter and the meter base.  That will do a _great_
job of keeping the uglies out of the house.  It will _not_
keep lightning out if the strike is close by - 'cause it will
come in through the walls and "infect" all electrically
conductive substances.


I guess I need to get some little UPSs or surge protectors
for my TVs and stereo equipment too.  I have been thinking
about that anyway as there are lightning hits around quite
often, so that makes sense, and now with the AC unit.


The basic job of a UPS is to replace the power when gets too
low.  It may do nothing if it's too high.

SurgeX is a top brand for high quality TVSS (transient
voltage suppression system), especially for audio, video, and
other system that have non-power wires between gear plugged
into different outlets.

Lowell Mfg makes good units for similar applications.

That said, if the air conditioner is NOT connected to any
other gear plugged into other outlets, a cheap MOV TVSS is
suitable.  Keep in mind, the MOV is a sacrificial type
protector and once it's "worn out" it usually fails
silently.  That is, everything still works, but the
protection is gone.

The idea in almost all TVS systems is to short the supply
line anytime the voltage is too high.   This happens very
fast.  But if the transient is big enough, or long enough, it
will trip the fuse or circuit breaker.  So for computer gear,
it's a good idea to put the TVSS in front of the UPS.

Also, I recall Mitch mentioning some forums recommending a
independent ground rod for the air conditioner.

   !!!  THIS IS A BAD IDEA  !!!
It will _cause_ problems, not solve them.  And it's
dangerous.  NEC (National Electric Code) is very clear about
NOT using independent grounds rods.  ALL ground wires MUST
connect to one ground point.  The ground point can have
multiple rods connected together but all service equipment
grounds must be connected at the same place.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

3300 Joules...http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Home-Electronics-Protective-Device-HEPD-HEPD80/203540660
 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

It looks like one of these in each panel will do the trick:

https://www.amazon.com/Eaton-BRSURGE-Whole-Panel-Arrest-Breaker/dp/B00PM927KK

Or one of these specifically on the AC unit circuit:

https://www.amazon.com/Eaton-BR230SUR/dp/B00JV3EIG4

Not sure that will deal with voltage swings but if the issue is 
spikes/surges these should trip off the units or the whole panel?


--R


On 7/28/16 12:37 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
Go the JC route:  Buy a used humongus APC UPS for cheep.  Buy some 
batteries to make it work.  Wire it in as a whole house (estate) 
unit.  Less costly over the long run than a bunch of UPSs/surge 
protector.one other route is what they call a buckbooster.  It is 
basically a big box (transformer and probably capacitors) that cleans 
up the line voltage


(JC in this case is Cathey)

This was/is a very common problem in Hawaii and in turd world countries.

And yes,  you can buy new surge protectors for each unit.  Trot on 
down to your friendly local electric supply.

Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
July 28, 2016 at 11:17 AM
So at the water board meeting this morning our engineer was talking 
about some problems in the distribution system, seems as though a 
coupla weeks ago in the early morning the SCADA system started 
sending alarms, which woke her up, sensors on our 3 tanks were all 
over the place then one failed.  Looked like a power hit but there 
were no storms in the area, so it was the powerco sending out trash 
power, voltage up and down, surges, etc. which blew a $900 sensor on 
the tank that is pretty much across the road from my vast estate.


The manager of the other system on Seabrook Island, just down the 
road, said they were getting voltage readings on a 480V line of 
420-540V, all over the map, and that they lost a well pump (2300ft in 
the hole) they are going to have to pull and replace for $3k.


I said, when was that again?  It was exactly the time my AC unit 
board blew out, and we are on the same circuit as the water tank, and 
Seabrook feed off the same substation that is just down the road, so 
the powerco's shitty power blew out my $500 control board, the water 
cos' $900 sensor and $3k pump.  I wonder how many others lost 
electronics that night?


She says the powerco won't guarantee clean power on the Island, so we 
are all pretty much screwed on the cost of the equipment. Nice. So I 
need to look at getting some surge protectors on my AC units (220V 
30A circuits) -- are there line surge protectors I can wire in at the 
shutoffs by the units?  Or at the panel?


I guess I need to get some little UPSs or surge protectors for my TVs 
and stereo equipment too.  I have been thinking about that anyway as 
there are lightning hits around quite often, so that makes sense, and 
now with the AC unit.


--FT

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
July 15, 2016 at 6:52 AM



The bigger ones have lower ratings, but I just checked and the multi 
zone have higher ratings than one giant single zone:


Fujitsu Halcyon Inverter units:

36RLXB 3 ton single zone 15.5 SEER $3150

36RLXFZ 3 ton quad zone 18 SEER $4500-4900

9RLFW 3/4 ton single zone 23 SEER $1425 (the one I just gave to my 
parents)


9RLS3 3/4 ton single zone 33 SEER $1585


Note that four 9000BTU 23 SEER cost $800 more at ACWholesalers than 
one 18 SEER 36,000BTU outdoor unit with four 9000 BTU indoor units. 
But if you have a controller board failure, you still have three 
functioning units if you have four compressors.



Mitch.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Craig via Mercedes 
July 14, 2016 at 10:29 PM
On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 23:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Mitch Haley via Mercedes

That's interesting. I thought the bigger units had higher SEER ratings.


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
July 14, 2016 at 10:21 PM



Sounds like the outdoor unit could use a brain transplant.

Back when I bought mine in 2012, Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, and Dakin were 
the trusted names among the guys at HVAC-Talk. Somebody told me LGs 
were good too, but susceptible to voltage spikes or something. I 
think a whole house surge protector and dedicated ground rod at the 
outdoor unit were recommended.


I got a 3/4 ton Fujitsu in 2012. It sort of cooled 

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Go the JC route:  Buy a used humongus APC UPS for cheep.  Buy some 
batteries to make it work.  Wire it in as a whole house (estate) unit.  
Less costly over the long run than a bunch of UPSs/surge protector.
one other route is what they call a buckbooster.  It is basically a big 
box (transformer and probably capacitors) that cleans up the line voltage


(JC in this case is Cathey)

This was/is a very common problem in Hawaii and in turd world countries.

And yes,  you can buy new surge protectors for each unit.  Trot on down 
to your friendly local electric supply.

Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
July 28, 2016 at 11:17 AM
So at the water board meeting this morning our engineer was talking 
about some problems in the distribution system, seems as though a 
coupla weeks ago in the early morning the SCADA system started sending 
alarms, which woke her up, sensors on our 3 tanks were all over the 
place then one failed.  Looked like a power hit but there were no 
storms in the area, so it was the powerco sending out trash power, 
voltage up and down, surges, etc. which blew a $900 sensor on the tank 
that is pretty much across the road from my vast estate.


The manager of the other system on Seabrook Island, just down the 
road, said they were getting voltage readings on a 480V line of 
420-540V, all over the map, and that they lost a well pump (2300ft in 
the hole) they are going to have to pull and replace for $3k.


I said, when was that again?  It was exactly the time my AC unit board 
blew out, and we are on the same circuit as the water tank, and 
Seabrook feed off the same substation that is just down the road, so 
the powerco's shitty power blew out my $500 control board, the water 
cos' $900 sensor and $3k pump.  I wonder how many others lost 
electronics that night?


She says the powerco won't guarantee clean power on the Island, so we 
are all pretty much screwed on the cost of the equipment.  Nice. So I 
need to look at getting some surge protectors on my AC units (220V 30A 
circuits) -- are there line surge protectors I can wire in at the 
shutoffs by the units?  Or at the panel?


I guess I need to get some little UPSs or surge protectors for my TVs 
and stereo equipment too.  I have been thinking about that anyway as 
there are lightning hits around quite often, so that makes sense, and 
now with the AC unit.


--FT

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
July 15, 2016 at 6:52 AM



The bigger ones have lower ratings, but I just checked and the multi 
zone have higher ratings than one giant single zone:


Fujitsu Halcyon Inverter units:

36RLXB 3 ton single zone 15.5 SEER $3150

36RLXFZ 3 ton quad zone 18 SEER $4500-4900

9RLFW 3/4 ton single zone 23 SEER $1425 (the one I just gave to my 
parents)


9RLS3 3/4 ton single zone 33 SEER $1585


Note that four 9000BTU 23 SEER cost $800 more at ACWholesalers than 
one 18 SEER 36,000BTU outdoor unit with four 9000 BTU indoor units. 
But if you have a controller board failure, you still have three 
functioning units if you have four compressors.



Mitch.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Craig via Mercedes 
July 14, 2016 at 10:29 PM
On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 23:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Mitch Haley via Mercedes

That's interesting. I thought the bigger units had higher SEER ratings.


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
July 14, 2016 at 10:21 PM



Sounds like the outdoor unit could use a brain transplant.

Back when I bought mine in 2012, Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, and Dakin were 
the trusted names among the guys at HVAC-Talk. Somebody told me LGs 
were good too, but susceptible to voltage spikes or something. I think 
a whole house surge protector and dedicated ground rod at the outdoor 
unit were recommended.


I got a 3/4 ton Fujitsu in 2012. It sort of cooled my whole house 
before I put in a central heat pump, I hadn't really used it much 
since then.


Took it out of my living room and put it in my parents' bedroom last 
month. Mom sets it at 78 to keep it from freezing her out of their 
master suite. I used to set it in the 70-74 range and run my furnace 
blower to spread it around the house.


We'd been talking about buying a three way Mitsubishi for my parents' 
living room / dining room / 

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

So at the water board meeting this morning our engineer was talking 
about some problems in the distribution system, seems as though a coupla 
weeks ago in the early morning the SCADA system started sending alarms, 
which woke her up, sensors on our 3 tanks were all over the place then 
one failed.  Looked like a power hit but there were no storms in the 
area, so it was the powerco sending out trash power, voltage up and 
down, surges, etc. which blew a $900 sensor on the tank that is pretty 
much across the road from my vast estate.


The manager of the other system on Seabrook Island, just down the road, 
said they were getting voltage readings on a 480V line of 420-540V, all 
over the map, and that they lost a well pump (2300ft in the hole) they 
are going to have to pull and replace for $3k.


I said, when was that again?  It was exactly the time my AC unit board 
blew out, and we are on the same circuit as the water tank, and Seabrook 
feed off the same substation that is just down the road, so the 
powerco's shitty power blew out my $500 control board, the water cos' 
$900 sensor and $3k pump.  I wonder how many others lost electronics 
that night?


She says the powerco won't guarantee clean power on the Island, so we 
are all pretty much screwed on the cost of the equipment.  Nice. So I 
need to look at getting some surge protectors on my AC units (220V 30A 
circuits) -- are there line surge protectors I can wire in at the 
shutoffs by the units?  Or at the panel?


I guess I need to get some little UPSs or surge protectors for my TVs 
and stereo equipment too.  I have been thinking about that anyway as 
there are lightning hits around quite often, so that makes sense, and 
now with the AC unit.


--FT

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

'Xactly.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On July 23, 2016 10:16:41 PM EDT, Craig via Mercedes  
wrote:
>On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 18:46:42 -0400 Max Dillon via Mercedes
> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like you needed Sam Spade's services to track down these
>gents?
>
>As in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Spade
>
>
>Craig
>
>___
>http://www.okiebenz.com
>
>To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
>To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 18:46:42 -0400 Max Dillon via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Sounds like you needed Sam Spade's services to track down these gents?

As in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Spade


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 18:07:55 -0400 Floyd Thursby via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Arrived yesterday, I got it in today, IT'S ALIVE

Congratulations!


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Sounds like you needed Sam Spade's services to track down these gents?
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On July 23, 2016 6:07:55 PM EDT, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>I found a guy who is based Upstate who facilitated getting me a new 
>control board for my LG mini-split outdoor unit.  He was a former boss 
>of a guy who is listed on LG's website, but who no longer sells their 
>stuff because of how poor they are to deal with (he says the units are 
>not bad but the company is terrible).  The guy is in the process of 
>setting up some kind of distributorship and had to sweet talk some
>other 
>guy he knows to get the deal done.  What a cluster  but it worked. 
>
>None of these guys had to give me the time of day, but they were nice 
>guys and worked the problem hard to get me the part.  Not bad.
>
>Arrived yesterday, I got it in today, IT'S ALIVE
>
>$500 and a few days of screwing around with LG and their network got me
>
>the part.  It really is a racket how these outfits make it hard to get 
>parts for stuff, even when going through their distributors.
>--FT
>
>___
>http://www.okiebenz.com
>
>To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
>To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

I found a guy who is based Upstate who facilitated getting me a new 
control board for my LG mini-split outdoor unit.  He was a former boss 
of a guy who is listed on LG's website, but who no longer sells their 
stuff because of how poor they are to deal with (he says the units are 
not bad but the company is terrible).  The guy is in the process of 
setting up some kind of distributorship and had to sweet talk some other 
guy he knows to get the deal done.  What a cluster  but it worked.  
None of these guys had to give me the time of day, but they were nice 
guys and worked the problem hard to get me the part.  Not bad.


Arrived yesterday, I got it in today, IT'S ALIVE

$500 and a few days of screwing around with LG and their network got me 
the part.  It really is a racket how these outfits make it hard to get 
parts for stuff, even when going through their distributors.

--FT

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

The ways of SWMBO are not for mortal men to understand...  "Yes dear" is
the proper response, we'll get you trained up yet Curt.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 9:57 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> We've got an in-wall aircon, sounds like a single room mini-split would
> replace it nicely. Ours is old school rotary dial controls, I'd like to
> have more control over it...
> Yesterday it wasn't terrible hot, around 85F but the humidity was KILLER.
> I ran the AC almost all day just to knock down the humidity. When I got
> home last night Angie had all the windows in the house open and the AC off.
> It had just started to get humid inside so I closed everything up and ran
> the AC an hour.On my way home last night I had to run the heat in the car
> to clear the windshield...
> This morning she was opening all the windows again, it was still 85+%
> humidity. "Well its not so hot"
> Sigh.
> Fortunately I got up before it got too muggy in here, I closed everything
> up and closed the shade in the east facing kitchen, two hours later is
> still not so bad but I figure I'll need the AC before lunch.
>
> -Curt
>
>
>
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

We've got an in-wall aircon, sounds like a single room mini-split would replace 
it nicely. Ours is old school rotary dial controls, I'd like to have more 
control over it...
Yesterday it wasn't terrible hot, around 85F but the humidity was KILLER. I ran 
the AC almost all day just to knock down the humidity. When I got home last 
night Angie had all the windows in the house open and the AC off. It had just 
started to get humid inside so I closed everything up and ran the AC an hour.On 
my way home last night I had to run the heat in the car to clear the 
windshield...
This morning she was opening all the windows again, it was still 85+% humidity. 
"Well its not so hot"
Sigh.
Fortunately I got up before it got too muggy in here, I closed everything up 
and closed the shade in the east facing kitchen, two hours later is still not 
so bad but I figure I'll need the AC before lunch.

-Curt


  From: Mitch Haley via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Mitch Haley <mi...@mitchellhaley.com>
 Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 11:21 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue
   


On July 14, 2016 at 10:39 PM Joel Cairo via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
wrote:


Yeah we tried shutting off and restarting, no go. The board on the 
compressor has some LEDs that should be lighting but aren't. The indoor 
units are all blinking their light saying they can't talk to the outdoor 
unit. 

Sounds like the outdoor unit could use a brain transplant. 
Back when I bought mine in 2012, Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, and Dakin were the 
trusted names among the guys at HVAC-Talk. Somebody told me LGs were good too, 
but susceptible to voltage spikes or something. I think a whole house surge 
protector and dedicated ground rod at the outdoor unit were recommended. 
I got a 3/4 ton Fujitsu in 2012. It sort of cooled my whole house before I put 
in a central heat pump, I hadn't really used it much since then. Took it out of 
my living room and put it in my parents' bedroom last month. Mom sets it at 78 
to keep it from freezing her out of their master suite. I used to set it in the 
70-74 range and run my furnace blower to spread it around the house. 
We'd been talking about buying a three way Mitsubishi for my parents' living 
room / dining room / computer room, but now I'm thinking it's worth a few 
hundred extra to buy 3 single room units. The single room units always have a 
higher SEER rating too. 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com



   
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On July 14, 2016 at 11:29 PM Craig via Mercedes  wrote:On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 23:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:The single room units always have a higher SEER rating too.That's interesting. I thought the bigger units had higher SEER ratings.The bigger ones have lower ratings, but I just checked and the multi zone have higher ratings than one giant single zone:Fujitsu Halcyon Inverter units: 36RLXB 3 ton single zone 15.5 SEER $315036RLXFZ 3 ton quad zone 18 SEER $4500-49009RLFW 3/4 ton single zone 23 SEER $1425 (the one I just gave to my parents)9RLS3 3/4 ton single zone 33 SEER $1585Note that four 9000BTU 23 SEER cost $800 more at ACWholesalers than one 18 SEER 36,000BTU outdoor unit with four 9000 BTU indoor units. But if you have a controller board failure, you still have three functioning units if you have four compressors. Mitch.

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 23:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Mitch Haley via Mercedes
 wrote:

> The single room units always have a higher SEER rating too.

That's interesting. I thought the bigger units had higher SEER ratings.


Craig

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On July 14, 2016 at 10:39 PM Joel Cairo via Mercedes  wrote:Yeah we tried shutting off and restarting, no go. The board on the compressor has some LEDs that should be lighting but aren't. The indoor units are all blinking their light saying they can't talk to the outdoor unit. Sounds like the outdoor unit could use a brain transplant. Back when I bought mine in 2012, Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, and Dakin were the trusted names among the guys at HVAC-Talk. Somebody told me LGs were good too, but susceptible to voltage spikes or something. I think a whole house surge protector and dedicated ground rod at the outdoor unit were recommended. I got a 3/4 ton Fujitsu in 2012. It sort of cooled my whole house before I put in a central heat pump, I hadn't really used it much since then. Took it out of my living room and put it in my parents' bedroom last month. Mom sets it at 78 to keep it from freezing her out of their master suite. I used to set it in the 70-74 range and run my furnace blower to spread it around the house. We'd been talking about buying a three way Mitsubishi for my parents' living room / dining room / computer room, but now I'm thinking it's worth a few hundred extra to buy 3 single room units. The single room units always have a higher SEER rating too. 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Joel Cairo via Mercedes]

Yeah we tried shutting off and restarting, no go.  The board on the 
compressor has some LEDs that should be lighting but aren't. The indoor 
units are all blinking their light saying they can't talk to the outdoor 
unit.  They have power off the outdoor unit through a 12V source.  I'm 
thinking there might be a 5V tap on the transformer too for the circuit 
board, I vaguely recall that from my quick perusal of the manual.  I 
guess I'll check that first, see if it is putting out 5V and the board 
is getting power.


yes it is an LG unit.  My guy says they have troubles with the 
Mitsubishis, which are supposedly "the best" and he does not like the 
mini-splits.  He also said Mits makes their own, all the other Asian 
brands are made by one company he could not remember, so they are all 
pretty much the same.


I can probably get Amazon prime free shipping on a tank or if it is over 
$49 and I can wait for a tortoise delivery...


--JC


On 7/14/16 4:15 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:



Korean?

LG?

Did you kill the breaker and try to reboot?

Check every wire, there's probably four conductors for each indoor unit?

I wonder if an electronic failure in an indoor unit can shut the whole 
system down or if it means something's wrong in the outdoor unit?



I took the test for the auto license online in the 1990s, don't know 
what I did with the license.


A few years ago I bought a can of 410a on Amazon for something like $120.

It's still sealed, but I bet it would cost some serious $$ to ship it 
to you without a wholesale UPS account.



Mitch.



___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com



--
--BB

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Joel Cairo via Mercedes]

The service manual has some troubleshooting procedures, my Korengrish 
should work pretty well.  I'll have to get at it this weekend, figure I 
can poke around at it as good as my guy.  I'll have to dig out the 
warranty info but it is probably beyond.


I'll look into the gas and a gauge set too.

--JC


On 7/14/16 7:06 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:

Bought a 30 lb tank a few years ago, didn't need a license then.  Amazon,
about $125 and wait a few days.

The installation manual / plan should give some idea of how it works, so
then you can engineer a test method or two.  Is there a big-a** start
capacitor?  Those are notorious for causing a no-start condition when all
the rest of the system is fine.

-
Max
Charleston SC
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com



--
--BB


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Bought a 30 lb tank a few years ago, didn't need a license then.  Amazon,
about $125 and wait a few days.

The installation manual / plan should give some idea of how it works, so
then you can engineer a test method or two.  Is there a big-a** start
capacitor?  Those are notorious for causing a no-start condition when all
the rest of the system is fine.

-
Max
Charleston SC
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] OT HVAC issue

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

Korean?LG?Did you kill the breaker and try to reboot?Check every wire, there's probably four conductors for each indoor unit?I wonder if an electronic failure in an indoor unit can shut the whole system down or if it means something's wrong in the outdoor unit?I took the test for the auto license online in the 1990s, don't know what I did with the license.A few years ago I bought a can of 410a on Amazon for something like $120.It's still sealed, but I bet it would cost some serious $$ to ship it to you without a wholesale UPS account. Mitch. 
 

___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com