Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
I like, Rich! I know just how much work old houses can be, but there's still a charm there you just don't get with new construction. I can look ath the quality of changes in my house and date pretty acurately when they were done just be looking at the quality of materials used and the skill with which they were executed. Unfortunately, I bought mine from a guy who had a son working at Home Depot. Many of his improvements just didn't meet with the style of the original. Only interesting thing I ever found was a 1917 copy of the Taylor newspaper wrapped around some old terra cotta pots in the crawl space under the house. No porn :^( Gary Thompson Georgetown, TX 1995 E320 1913 Arts and Crafts Bungalow (National Register Easley/Raper Home) On 1/17/07, Rich Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I restored/renovated a 100 yr old Victorian, and while it was a very nice house, and well-built, when they say, They don't build 'em like they used to that ain't always a bad thing! I found lots of shortcuts in my house, when I opened up walls and stuff, from when it was originally built. And the upgrades over the years looked like they were done by cheap morons, which I am sure was the case. I did find some interesting porn stuck in the floorboards from a 50s bathroom redo, and some from maybe the 60s in another wall . Too funny. Most of it was no worse than today's newspaper. I found some original 1884 newspapers from when the house was built. Classified ads (Boston paper) were looking for (under separate headings) Italian girls (Catholic), Irish girls [Catholic/Protestant] . Some general ads specified No Irish and No Negroes but Italians generally seemed acceptable unless otherwise specified. Kinda shows what the pecking order was then. If anyone is interested, here is my web site chronicle of the transformation http://www.constructivity.net/victorian_restoration.htm --R
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:39:36 -0600, Rich Thomas wrote I bought a copy of the National Elec Code and state plumbing code, they are excellent references as it appears most plumbers and electricians are not, um, the National Merit Scholar folks, so everything is spelled out in simple detail with multitudinous examples. Kinda hard to go wrong -- sh*t flows downhill, and black to black, white to white, and green to ground. Everything else derives from that. The problem is each electrical inspector is free to apply their own interpretation to the code, so if you get a creative one you can get into trouble. (This is where a local electrician who knows the local quirks will help you.) I guess on the job I was involved in the local municipality had adopted some construction codes that were so new they weren't even published anywhere yet, but we had to conform to them just the same.
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:26:56 -0600 Rich Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If anyone is interested, here is my web site chronicle of the transformation http://www.constructivity.net/victorian_restoration.htm Looks great! Do you do any work in Los Alamos, NM? :-) Craig
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Wow Rich, what a project, no wonder people want you for their homes. Was it a one horse show? How did you handle the heights? Is this your current home? What about permits and codes? Its a beautiful House, thanks for sharing. Harry On 1/20/07, Rich Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Many people have asked if I would come to their place to do this stuff. If i was single, had no kids, I have thought it would be kinda fun to get an RV of some sort (those things built on a big truck chassis) and tow a big trailer with my shop and tools and a little truck in it -- kinda like the racers and their car haulers. Be an itinerant carpenter, mooch off people and do some work. But you might not want to take 18 yr to do what I did to the Old Vickie! --R Craig McCluskey wrote: On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:26:56 -0600 Rich Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If anyone is interested, here is my web site chronicle of the transformation http://www.constructivity.net/victorian_restoration.htm Looks great! Do you do any work in Los Alamos, NM? :-) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
I did all the work myself except for at the very end we hired a painter to do some interior work as we had to move, and time was running out. Lots of weekends, holidays, 2 kids, wife through med school, full-time jobs...but made a pile of money so it was worth it. Could not afford to buy it back now as the prices have about doubled in 7 yr. People who bought it from us sold it a year later for another $100k...oh well, sigh... We moved to Houston, that house is outside Boston in Melrose, which was the first bedroom suburb of Boston when they built a train line out that way in the 1850s and many wealthy people moved there and started building houses, which at the time were of the Victorian style. As nice as mine is/was, there are others on the street and nearby that were mansions. A friend around the corner has hers, which is still mostly original inside except for one modern bathroom (the original is still there with the old water box toilet) and sorta updated kitchen. It is incredible -- some PBS drama was filmed in it. When I go back to Boston I stay there, I get the bedroom with the turret and the original silk lampshaded drop ceiling light! Code, permits -- we don't need no stinkin codes and permits. I did get busted at the very end (after 16 yr of work, with scaffolding on and around the house for about 3 yr), dumpsters in the driveway, huge piles of stuff for the trash (usually with a 6pack in a bag on top). The bldg inspector drove by and saw the aforementioned painter's truck in the driveway and came snooping, saw the last of my lighting being put in on the porch, and busted me for no electrical permits. Hired an electrician to finish up for $100, got my friend to prevail on the mayor at the Irish coffee shop one morning (where all city business got done), and all was well with the world. A neighbor across the street was an electrician, he said my work was better than what he did. He was redoing his about the same time, would ask me for pointers. I did all the plumbing and heating system (twice, again after the boiler froze up while we on vacation, -25F one night and the heating oil gelled up in the tank in the basement -- like on our diesels! -- froze all the pipes). Heights don't bother me, except going up and down the ladder so many times. I was re-clapboarding the back, on a 40ft ladder, up/down about 300 times one Saturday to get them trimmed properly and nailed in the peak. Sunday morning I got out of bed, promptly fell flat on my face as my calf muscles were totally inop -- took me an hour or so to get them loosened up then I hurt but was OK. Back on the ladder got them stretched out. I did have one incident, I was up on the ladder putting on a gutter, I heard this LOUD noise, looked up, and a B-52 came screaming over the house at about 300 ft. It was airshow day at the local Air Force Base, and this thing was on a low pass headed for the field. Apart from about falling off the ladder, I almost lost control of other functions as well. I swear I could see rivets on the wings. I bought a copy of the National Elec Code and state plumbing code, they are excellent references as it appears most plumbers and electricians are not, um, the National Merit Scholar folks, so everything is spelled out in simple detail with multitudinous examples. Kinda hard to go wrong -- sh*t flows downhill, and black to black, white to white, and green to ground. Everything else derives from that. Labor of love, but the house should be good for another 100 yr. I heard the latest owners painted it some sort of orange color last summer. Boo. --R Harry Watkins wrote: Wow Rich, what a project, no wonder people want you for their homes. Was it a one horse show? How did you handle the heights? Is this your current home? What about permits and codes? Its a beautiful House, thanks for sharing. Harry
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Depends on what kind of laminate. Real Pergo brand laminate for instance is a thin layer of real hardwood on some sort of a plywood backing. The cheapo discount store stuff is basically wallpaper on the floor. MDF with stickon wood grain. I saw Pergo in a house that had extreme water damage, it was the only wood in the house undamaged... I'm sold on that stuff. The other stuff is crap. -Curt Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:17:09 -0500 From: Billr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Just a quick note on flooring. In S. Fla we had all tile [NEVER get white floor tile ], but here we have a mixture of carpet, tile and wood. A few months ago I started seeing water squish up from between the floor panels - quite exciting as it was in the middle of the house. Turns out the PO had installed the air handler in a front hall closet and put in a sump pump, which had locked up. Out comes the shop vac but I was quite concerned about the wood floor. PO said not to worry as it was solid wood and would settle down fine when it dried out. He was right, and you can't even tell where it was wet. It is my impression that laminate will not do that - or is my information based on old technology? BillR Jacksonville FL - Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jan 19 00:25:34 2007 Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net ([204.127.200.84]) by server8.arterytc8.net with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1H7hZW-gN-PN for mercedes@okiebenz.com; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 00:25:34 + Received: from [192.168.1.6] (c-24-3-195-27.hsd1.pa.comcast.net[24.3.195.27]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with ESMTP id 2007011900204401400oir0ne; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 00:20:44 + Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 19:20:41 -0500 From: Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus Subject: Re: [MBZ] Adjusting valves in cold weather X-BeenThere: mercedes@okiebenz.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9.cp1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com List-Id: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes_okiebenz.com.okiebenz.com List-Unsubscribe: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Archive: /pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com List-Post: mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com List-Help: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Subscribe: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 00:25:35 - Roger Conlon wrote: Would it be OK to adjust the valves on a 85 300D in cold weather, say 20 degrees F, or would it be a no,no? I have not done the valves in 2 yrs and I don't have a heated garage. It's not a problem. Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Curt Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I saw Pergo in a house that had extreme water damage, it was the only wood in the house undamaged... I'm sold on that stuff. The other stuff is crap. They must have improved it since I had it. In a former house, late 1990s, we had Pergo installed. Some water was spilled on the floor and not noticed. Even though the planks were glued together, the water soaked into the joints between the planks, and the floor swelled a little there. It never went back down after it dried. Laminate floor has its advantages but you cannot let water stand on it for any length of time. I would never use it in a bathroom or anywhere else likely to see a lot of water. The manufacturers will tell you it can be installed in a bathroom if you use waterproof glue and seal the entire perimeter. I would not do it unless the planks are guaranteed waterproof (a few are, but most are not). Allan -- 1983 300D 1966 230
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
We replaced nasty old carpet with Wilsonart laminate flooring a couple of years ago. It's similar to Formica on Masonite. We have it in every room in the house. There is no noticeable difference between that in the bathroom (glued along the joints, but not the outside edges), and anywhere else. I have scraps that have been left out in the weather for 12 months, that snap together nicely with samples that have been kept inside - nice and dry. I don't worry about water on the floor at all now. It's very hard and scuff resistant. The marks that look like scratches turn out to be bits of the offending item scrapped off by the texture of the floor - they clean up readily, and the floor looks like new. We're very happy with the stuff. So far, it's performed better than advertised. Laminate floor has its advantages but you cannot let water stand on it for any length of time. I would never use it in a bathroom or anywhere else likely to see a lot of water. The manufacturers will tell you it can be installed in a bathroom if you use waterproof glue and seal the entire perimeter. I would not do it unless the planks are guaranteed waterproof (a few are, but most are not). -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
We replaced nasty old carpet with Wilsonart laminate flooring Some friends of my wife are contractors, and put that stuff in their mom's kitchen. After several years of use, and being used as a day care facility, the Wilsonart people came out to photograph the installation for their catalog. It appeared as a full-page feature photograph. (The boys had done a very elaborate patterned and edged installation, like parquet.) It looked as good as new, still does. They're sold on that particular brand. I can't speak for its water-resistance, not knowing of any incidents (or not). -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Isn't that a R107 in the architect's drawing here? http://menards.com/web/managed/featuredProjects/garages/1954029PicLg.jpg Mitch.
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
I'd say so On 1/18/07, Mitch Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't that a R107 in the architect's drawing here? http://menards.com/web/managed/featuredProjects/garages/1954029PicLg.jpg Mitch. -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Isn't that a R107 in the architect's drawing here? http://menards.com/web/managed/featuredProjects/garages/ 1954029PicLg.jpg Kinda-sorta, but it has a BMW-ish rear badge, and the shape of the ass end reminds me more of a 114 than a 107. With Euro bumpers, not USDOT behemoths. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Peter Frederick wrote: TGI trusses are horrible, I googled that to make sure what you were talking about (OSB I-Beam). Google gave me lots of links to builders who explained why TGI was far superior to 2x12. ;-) They forgot to mention cheap. The optional upgrade seems to be built up trusses, which I had been thinking about using for ease of use. A 28' would cost me about $70 though, making it more expensive than the roof trusses, and I'd need twice as many. Use steel How big a floor I-Beam do you need to span 28'? And how far apart can you space them? Mitch.
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Mitch Haley wrote: I googled that to make sure what you were talking about (OSB I-Beam). Google gave me lots of links to builders who explained why TGI was far superior to 2x12. ;-) Before using OSB I-beams, you might want to check with your local fire department. When they first became popular, I vaguely remember some fire chiefs saying they wouldn't send their guys into a house that had them. Apparently they burn through and collapse much more quickly than solid wood beams.
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
On the subject of laminate flooring...I did just about the entire house with it in our last house. The rooms that didn't get it got commercial grade carpet squares. It seemed pretty durable, but the thing I didn't like about it was that it was noisy when you walk on it. Sin the current house we put down vinyl strip flooring that has wood grain on it. Float the slab, put down the adhesive and lay down the strips. Looks just about as good as the laminate, but it's QUIET and soft when you walk on it. Even feels kind of warm. Seller (Freddie Mac repo) put in new carpet when we bought it, but when that wears out, we'll do the commercial carpet squares again. I love old technology, but I sure like the new how the new stuff performs when it's done right. Royce Engler 1985 300TD Turbo 293K
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Now, if I were a materials engineer, I could answer that. The I-beam that holds up our house is 8 by 4 flange, I think. maybe 10, I've not measured. I think there are three posts along the length. I was talking steel replacements for 2x4, 2x6, 2x8, and 2x12 wood, standard for industrial construction and should be for any multifamily structure (they don't burn easily, for instance). The only thing going for TGI is stiffness, and that's at the expense of load capacity. They are, I believe, supposed to be spaced closer than 16 for floors (12 probably), and MUST be braced exactly perpendicular to the floor, otherwise they have less strength by any measure than 1x planking. Depending on what type of roof you are putting up, trusses can be spaced at 8 ft with purlings between for sheet steel roofing. Again, you can use sheet steel trusses instead of wood. For residential roof, I think the spacing is 16 or 24 depending on local code and the roofing you are using. Peter
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
standard for industrial construction and should be for any multifamily structure (they don't burn easily, for instance). But they do melt. Tests show that wood beams hold up longer in fires than steel, due to the self-insulating capabilities of wood. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Jim Cathey wrote: standard for industrial construction and should be for any multifamily structure (they don't burn easily, for instance). But they do melt. Tests show that wood beams hold up longer in fires than steel, due to the self-insulating capabilities of wood. This would be why commercial buildings almost always have that fuzzy-looking insulation on the structural steel members. The steel doesn't even have to get hot enough to melt for it to be substantially weakened.
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Brian wrote:Wish we could pick up our house and take it with us I know the feeling well! We lived in a home on the intracoastal waterway in eat Tx that had steel columns in each corner to protect against Hurricanes - and a huge cooling tower in the backyard for the AC system along with a switch in the hall that would close a flap in the ducts to close off the front half of the house. Neat stuff - lights in all closets that came on when the door was opened and so many more things I can;t recall. It was built in 190? by the guy who founded Texaco. A reallly neat house I could have bought in 1978 for $28K Sigh... Then there's the house in Va - was a civil war hospital and headquarters on several 100s acres of land over looking the James River - we rented for $450/mo in mid 80s. almost 6000 sq ft with almost zero closet space. But a neat house with history and a slate roof. We've been lucky enough to live in many great places as we moved all over the eastern half of the US - Tn, Va and SC were my favorites - although all were nice except Ill which we couldn;t stand - left after 3 months. ;-) Oh well great memories - Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Zoltan Finks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality Thanks - keep info. coming - I can use all, as I have no experience in all this. We, too, have a nice secure feeling in our current 1918 built house which is in a neighborhood about 5 blocks from the Mayo Clinic. I think that perhaps there was quality construction in this neighborood. As I am with most things, I am very suspicious about built quality and especially the practices of the individual worker, even the designers. Human laziness and greed tends to ruin a lot of things. Wish we could pick up our house and take it with us when we move. brian Tony wrote: I'm confident that our old and creaky 200 year old house will be here in another 40-50 years when these houses across the way are being torn down. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.13/632 - Release Date: 1/16/2007
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
On the topic of flooring: We have such an aversion to carpet for a multiple reasons. A new-build house we're looking into says it has carpet and hardwood floors. My wife was wondering if we could get them to make the stairs and halls hardwood. I told her that would probably be very expensive, because it was not designed that way, and they'd have to design in the hardwood stairs just for us. Think so? brian Royce wrote: On the subject of laminate flooring...I did just about the entire house with it in our last house. The rooms that didn't get it got commercial grade carpet squares
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Just a quick note on flooring. In S. Fla we had all tile [NEVER get white floor tile ], but here we have a mixture of carpet, tile and wood. A few months ago I started seeing water squish up from between the floor panels - quite exciting as it was in the middle of the house. Turns out the PO had installed the air handler in a front hall closet and put in a sump pump, which had locked up. Out comes the shop vac but I was quite concerned about the wood floor. PO said not to worry as it was solid wood and would settle down fine when it dried out. He was right, and you can't even tell where it was wet. It is my impression that laminate will not do that - or is my information based on old technology? BillR Jacksonville FL -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoltan Finks Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:05 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality On the topic of flooring: We have such an aversion to carpet for a multiple reasons. A new-build house we're looking into says it has carpet and hardwood floors. My wife was wondering if we could get them to make the stairs and halls hardwood. I told her that would probably be very expensive, because it was not designed that way, and they'd have to design in the hardwood stairs just for us. Think so? brian Royce wrote: On the subject of laminate flooring...I did just about the entire house with it in our last house. The rooms that didn't get it got commercial grade carpet squares ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Doing the hall would not be an issue -- just lay down hardwood. Though you will need to consider door thresholds/opening and such as the wood is 3/4 thick. Carpet and pad have some thickness, close to that so it might not be a big issue. Stairs are possible but it depends on how they are done now -- you would have to look at them. Issues are trim, floor/tread/floor height (again adding 3/4 to treads), and rails, etc. On stairs you usually use solid treads (not strips), which can be 3/4 to over an inch thick. If none of this is done yet, you are in luck. Just specify wood instead of carpet, let them build it out that way. I can't imagine they don't do this as an option or spec, so it should not be a huge change. Wood will likely cost more (than cheap builder's carpet) but it will last longer and look nicer with little care required. Pay now for wood or pay later for regular carpet cleaning, replacement, etc. Note that the new manf wood flooring (the good stuff) has an extremely hard and durable finish on it, applied in the factory, that is much better than site-applied varnish, and comes in many flavors. --R Zoltan Finks wrote: My wife was wondering if we could get them to make the stairs and halls hardwood. I told her that would probably be very expensive, because it was not designed that way, and they'd have to design in the hardwood stairs just for us.
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
A few brands of laminate floor are billed as being totally waterproof but most laminate floors even the genuine Pergo will swell permanently and/or disintegrate if water gets into the sides or under the boards. I'd never install it in a bathroom, though the manufactures will tell you it can be done by using waterproof glue and sealing all around the perimeter. Allan Billr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just a quick note on flooring. In S. Fla we had all tile [NEVER get white floor tile ], but here we have a mixture of carpet, tile and wood. A few months ago I started seeing water squish up from between the floor panels - quite exciting as it was in the middle of the house. Turns out the PO had installed the air handler in a front hall closet and put in a sump pump, which had locked up. Out comes the shop vac but I was quite concerned about the wood floor. PO said not to worry as it was solid wood and would settle down fine when it dried out. He was right, and you can't even tell where it was wet. It is my impression that laminate will not do that - or is my information based on old technology? BillR Jacksonville FL -- 1983 300D 1966 230
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Another option is to build a composite beam; use 3x 2x12's with fletch plates in them Drill holes on hex packing, two rows and bolt it all together. You can probably have an elephant tap-dance on one of them. -j.
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
You do it and I'll come watch the elephant... BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John W. Reames III Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 2:11 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality Another option is to build a composite beam; use 3x 2x12's with fletch plates in them Drill holes on hex packing, two rows and bolt it all together. You can probably have an elephant tap-dance on one of them. -j. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
One of the ladies who works for my wife just installed cheap laminate flooring in her kitchen because their dishwasher leaked and ruined their vinyl floor and they had to redo it with something. They decided to test some left over scrap to see what water would do to it. They put a couple of pieces in a bucket of water for a couple of days. She was amazed. They couldn't tell the difference when they pulled it from the water. So, who knows? Randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Billr Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 12:17 PM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality Just a quick note on flooring. In S. Fla we had all tile [NEVER get white floor tile ], but here we have a mixture of carpet, tile and wood. A few months ago I started seeing water squish up from between the floor panels - quite exciting as it was in the middle of the house. Turns out the PO had installed the air handler in a front hall closet and put in a sump pump, which had locked up. Out comes the shop vac but I was quite concerned about the wood floor. PO said not to worry as it was solid wood and would settle down fine when it dried out. He was right, and you can't even tell where it was wet. It is my impression that laminate will not do that - or is my information based on old technology? BillR Jacksonville FL -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoltan Finks Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:05 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality On the topic of flooring: We have such an aversion to carpet for a multiple reasons. A new-build house we're looking into says it has carpet and hardwood floors. My wife was wondering if we could get them to make the stairs and halls hardwood. I told her that would probably be very expensive, because it was not designed that way, and they'd have to design in the hardwood stairs just for us. Think so? brian Royce wrote: On the subject of laminate flooring...I did just about the entire house with it in our last house. The rooms that didn't get it got commercial grade carpet squares ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
In residential/apartement building use, the wood structure is the primary fuel for the fire. With drywall on both side, the walls are 20 min. fireproof at least, more if insulated, and don't contribute to the combustion, unlike wood. Peter
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Brian - Part of trying to answer would be knowing if you are looking over an already constructed home or starting to build one and want to make sure they are doing things correctly. The problem areas for me in homes have been electrical: - do you want dual lines to ceiling fans to control fan / light from the switch; adequate plugs / breaker box; build in a generator matrix so you can easily use it [input box for the generator and a list of which switches to have on/off]. I had a house that had all the electrical outlets mounted flush with the joists [idiot subcontractor]. Drywall application left all of them with 3/4 of play on plug in. I have seen phone lines pulled so tight they would not stay on. These things need such constant supervision that the only way to make sure most is done correctly is to spend all day every day at the site, or hire someone to do that [I know, that's what a contractor is supposed to do]. As for the soundness of a house you are buying I have used inspection companies on every purchase. $700 for the last one, but we got a through list of everything about the house, so few surprises. Otherwise check on quality of the finish carpentry, check to make sure the roof has the proper clips to keep it on during whatever big blows you have in your area. If you are doing a shop / garage area you might want to have it constructed as a shell so you can do the design yourself. Just the start ... I'm sure there are others with shop specific advice and more experience than I have. BillR Jacksonville FL -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoltan Finks Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:35 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality Okay, I know there's been a lot of OT lately (which I think keeps things fun), but I want to draw upon the knowledge our discriminating collective: As new-build houses go, how can one tell if a house is built with quality as opposed to corner-cutting cheapness? I know that new techniques are being used, such as a few pieces of plywood bonded together to make a 2 x 4. Is stuff like that okay, and what else is there to look out for? Brian ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Okay, I know there's been a lot of OT lately (which I think keeps things fun), but I want to draw upon the knowledge our discriminating collective: As new-build houses go, how can one tell if a house is built with quality as opposed to corner-cutting cheapness? I know that new techniques are being used, such as a few pieces of plywood bonded together to make a 2 x 4. Is stuff like that okay, and what else is there to look out for? Brian Brian- My take? There have been too many latest and greatest wood laminates that have come and gone, mostly after owners find that they fall apart and/or spontaneously combust. Build quality is typically so bad today that new houses with critical failures such as roof leaks are more the norm than the exception. Across the road from where I am theres a new collection of McMansions. Cost ranges from the cheapie at $800k for the poor folk to the model at 1.2million. On the inside you can see how out of plumb the walls are thanks in part to the wallpaper selected. Occasional creaks in the floor, bad trim work, sloppy paint most everywhere. On the outside, wavy siding with gaps in the corners and in the j-channel near windows. Hope you like the $2.00 Home Depot special lights out back! Oh, and in that model you get a kitchen with cheap looking formica counters. All the doors are plastic- the kind that start warping in 5-10 years or so. CanNOT get wood as an upgrade. This model has an unfinished basement where a non-trained eye can see short cuts all over the place And the crowning achievement? The vista out the cathedral-ceilinged living room is the cooling towers of a nuclear plant 8 miles away. Sorry for the tangent- BUT the point (and there is a point) is that with engineered lumbar trusses this and most other houses now use, water leaks (or poor ventilation) can create spaces with sufficient moisture that these beams will loose integrity- depending on how much moisture and how much time. The products may be based on good theory, but there are so many things that MUST be done correctly as part of installation that are not likely to that the odds of long term success are not good. Finally, in talking to people who do permits in our township there are already problems. The oldest of these houses are 18 months old. I'm confident that our old and creaky 200 year old house will be here in another 40-50 years when these houses across the way are being torn down. Tony Wirtel 1805 farmhouse (decrepit by modern standards), 85 300sd (just plain decrepit), 92 300e (decent)
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
with engineered lumbar trusses this and most other houses now use, water leaks (or poor ventilation) can create spaces with sufficient moisture that these beams will loose integrity- depending on how much moisture and how much time. True also of wood, but it takes a lot longer! In theory you notice the puddling or whatever and can correct the leak before it does real damage. Water kills houses, pure and simple. The choice of materials sets the schedule, 'Sauder' houses just won't last. When I had my 6-car garage extension added I specified plywood, not OSB. Cost more, but I wanted the extension to look like it had always been there, and OSB was not in use in the 70's. Also, the house, for all its flaws, is holding up well. Nothing wrong with construction quality, though it was 'inexpensive'. (I spoke with the original owner, as she's from whom I bought the house.) Even in the Wood Pavilion I used plywood roof sheathing, not OSB. I used 'blows', figuring that even as rejects they'd probably hold up longer over time than OSB would. Also, plywood is a bad enough stylistic match to the otherwise all-pole rustic construction, OSB would have been too disgusting. (Lap or TG sheathing was just too impractical.) I'm confident that our old and creaky 200 year old house will be here in another 40-50 years when these houses across the way are being torn down. Unless they zone or e-d you to death. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Give up. I don't think it has as much to do with the quality of material as it does with the quality of the workmanship. You will NEVER get a well-constructed house unless YOU supervise EVERY aspect of the build. Every builder I know hires teams of illegal aliens to do the construction. I do not think any of them know how to use a square or level. When I was a teenager, I worked for a builder who demanded quality work. If a wall was not within 1/8 inch of being square and plumb, he made you tear it out and rebuild it on your own time. I have NOT seen such quality work since. Tom Potter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoltan Finks Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:35 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality Okay, I know there's been a lot of OT lately (which I think keeps things fun), but I want to draw upon the knowledge our discriminating collective: As new-build houses go, how can one tell if a house is built with quality as opposed to corner-cutting cheapness? I know that new techniques are being used, such as a few pieces of plywood bonded together to make a 2 x 4. Is stuff like that okay, and what else is there to look out for? Brian ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
I have read what the last few people have stated, and I agree with what has been said. I worked in the construction field since I was 12 until I was 22 when I graduated college and got a desk job. I worked for guys who really cared about stuff, and other who only cared about the bottom line. I bought my first house at a bank auction and rebuilt the thing myself over a period of 5 years. I am picky about how things are done, and made sure things were done correctly and accurately. When the time came to buy a bigger house a few years ago, my wife and I looked at quite a few places. Some only a few years old, some a few hundred years old. My wife was interested in the newer stuff, while I liked the older. Looking at the work in some of the places, it amazed me at what stood out as cob-jobbed, sloppy, or just not correctly done. My wife usually didn't noticed stuff, even after I pointed it out (And even in the older houses, there were things that were not done properly back then too). What really got me was that when we went to sell our house, it was worth the same price as one that was of similar size and location, regardless of what the differences were in construction and detail. We ended up trading houses with a couple that were looking to downsize. They wanted something smaller and maintenance free, we needed something bigger. The new house is around 200 years old, and still doing pretty good. A few sags here and there, old knob and tube wiring, leaky windows, etc but well built. Dave Wakin - Original Message - From: Redghost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality I actually only purchase pre owned homes of a certain vintage. But the wife's side goes for new construction, so I check what garbage they are getting for their pennies. Look at the trim work. If it is real wood, miter cut angles, that speaks volumes about the quality of materials used. Most times the trim is but nailed, paper wrapped saw dust. Cheap construction also like T1-11 siding. Excess caulk usage on nail holes/seams speaks to the low value home. Pergo type flooring - look like wood, wears like paper. I guess if it looks and feels cheap, you are correct. Sturdy products speak of more care in the building. I really hate the particle board siding or sheet products being used anywhere but for interior remodel. Homes get popped up around here with that junk, get rained on, and the wood just sucks the water into the sheet. A few years later, there is de-lamination and mold. My $0.02, YMMV On Jan 17, 2007, at 1:35 AM, Zoltan Finks wrote: Okay, I know there's been a lot of OT lately (which I think keeps things fun), but I want to draw upon the knowledge our discriminating collective: As new-build houses go, how can one tell if a house is built with quality as opposed to corner-cutting cheapness? I know that new techniques are being used, such as a few pieces of plywood bonded together to make a 2 x 4. Is stuff like that okay, and what else is there to look out for? Brian ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Clay Seattle Bioburner 1972 220D - Gump 1995 E300D - Cleo 1987 300SDL - POS - DOA The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
I'm not sure that I agree with most of the views posted on this subject. I think the bottom line is that you gain some and lose some with a new home. Some stuff is just plain better than it used to be. Insulation, vapour barrier, windows, etc. Many of these things are difficult to retrofit. I agree that you won't get solid wood trim unless you are prepared to pay for it but that's life as they say. I bought a new home in 1981 and have spent the past 25 years adding to it and improving it. It was a pretty basic builder's house to begin with. I have upgraded much of it. Solid oak jambs, casings, base mouldings etc. I won't necessarily get any more for it than some of my neighbors who have done little, but I enjoyed doing it and I did it for me. I didn't intend to sell and I still don't. Randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dave Wakin Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:01 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality I have read what the last few people have stated, and I agree with what has been said. I worked in the construction field since I was 12 until I was 22 when I graduated college and got a desk job. I worked for guys who really cared about stuff, and other who only cared about the bottom line. I bought my first house at a bank auction and rebuilt the thing myself over a period of 5 years. I am picky about how things are done, and made sure things were done correctly and accurately. When the time came to buy a bigger house a few years ago, my wife and I looked at quite a few places. Some only a few years old, some a few hundred years old. My wife was interested in the newer stuff, while I liked the older. Looking at the work in some of the places, it amazed me at what stood out as cob-jobbed, sloppy, or just not correctly done. My wife usually didn't noticed stuff, even after I pointed it out (And even in the older houses, there were things that were not done properly back then too). What really got me was that when we went to sell our house, it was worth the same price as one that was of similar size and location, regardless of what the differences were in construction and detail. We ended up trading houses with a couple that were looking to downsize. They wanted something smaller and maintenance free, we needed something bigger. The new house is around 200 years old, and still doing pretty good. A few sags here and there, old knob and tube wiring, leaky windows, etc but well built. Dave Wakin - Original Message - From: Redghost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality I actually only purchase pre owned homes of a certain vintage. But the wife's side goes for new construction, so I check what garbage they are getting for their pennies. Look at the trim work. If it is real wood, miter cut angles, that speaks volumes about the quality of materials used. Most times the trim is but nailed, paper wrapped saw dust. Cheap construction also like T1-11 siding. Excess caulk usage on nail holes/seams speaks to the low value home. Pergo type flooring - look like wood, wears like paper. I guess if it looks and feels cheap, you are correct. Sturdy products speak of more care in the building. I really hate the particle board siding or sheet products being used anywhere but for interior remodel. Homes get popped up around here with that junk, get rained on, and the wood just sucks the water into the sheet. A few years later, there is de-lamination and mold. My $0.02, YMMV On Jan 17, 2007, at 1:35 AM, Zoltan Finks wrote: Okay, I know there's been a lot of OT lately (which I think keeps things fun), but I want to draw upon the knowledge our discriminating collective: As new-build houses go, how can one tell if a house is built with quality as opposed to corner-cutting cheapness? I know that new techniques are being used, such as a few pieces of plywood bonded together to make a 2 x 4. Is stuff like that okay, and what else is there to look out for? Brian ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Clay Seattle Bioburner 1972 220D - Gump 1995 E300D - Cleo 1987 300SDL - POS - DOA The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Thanks - keep info. coming - I can use all, as I have no experience in all this. We, too, have a nice secure feeling in our current 1918 built house which is in a neighborhood about 5 blocks from the Mayo Clinic. I think that perhaps there was quality construction in this neighborood. As I am with most things, I am very suspicious about built quality and especially the practices of the individual worker, even the designers. Human laziness and greed tends to ruin a lot of things. Wish we could pick up our house and take it with us when we move. brian Tony wrote: I'm confident that our old and creaky 200 year old house will be here in another 40-50 years when these houses across the way are being torn down.
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
Dave Wakin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What really got me was that when we went to sell our house, it was worth the same price as one that was of similar size and location, regardless of what the differences were in construction and detail. Yep, that's the reality of residential real estate. It is rare for a house to be saleable at much more than the average square foot price for the neighborhood. The appraiser basically takes the average of several recent sales of similar square footage in the neighborhood. That's why the conventional wisdom is not to improve your home much over the average of your neighborhood if you are planning to recoup the investment. If you want to do it for your own long-term enjoyment, fine, but it'll be hard to sell for more than average regardless. Allan -- 1983 300D 1966 230
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
I restored/renovated a 100 yr old Victorian, and while it was a very nice house, and well-built, when they say, They don't build 'em like they used to that ain't always a bad thing! I found lots of shortcuts in my house, when I opened up walls and stuff, from when it was originally built. And the upgrades over the years looked like they were done by cheap morons, which I am sure was the case. I did find some interesting porn stuck in the floorboards from a 50s bathroom redo, and some from maybe the 60s in another wall . Too funny. Most of it was no worse than today's newspaper. I found some original 1884 newspapers from when the house was built. Classified ads (Boston paper) were looking for (under separate headings) Italian girls (Catholic), Irish girls [Catholic/Protestant] . Some general ads specified No Irish and No Negroes but Italians generally seemed acceptable unless otherwise specified. Kinda shows what the pecking order was then. If anyone is interested, here is my web site chronicle of the transformation http://www.constructivity.net/victorian_restoration.htm --R
Re: [MBZ] OT House Build Quality
OSB dintegrates once wetted -- the swelling wood fractures the glue and it falls apart. The structural strength is questionable new -- as my brother demostrated, a healthy guy can easily drive a 16 oz hammer through a 3/4 sheet of OSB. I dont' know of anyone who can pull that trick with Douglas Fir plywood. TGI trusses are horrible, they are both weaker (lower fracture strength) and much more flexible if not installed exactly vertical than 2x12s. Water again, any water at all, even high humidty for more than a few hours, and the material disintergrates. Use steel -- if protected from severe water incursion, it will last hundreds of years, and doesn't warp. With the ease of construction, is should be cheaper than wood by now, and it can ONLY be installed square. Peter
