[meteorite-list] Alert on iranian meteorites - dishonnest sellers there (Afshin Km and Hot Desert Meteorites)
Dear list this is to say that the meteorites Pierre Marie is talking about are under classification in our lab and that we have all reasons to trust their finders. The negotiation between Pierre-Marie and them has apparently not been successful but that does not mean they are dishonest. We repeatedly receive meteorites from Iran through postal service or DHL without problems. Pierre Rochette __ Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] WHO IS THE BEST AND MOST SUCCESSFUL METEORITE HUNTER OUT THERE?
Dear list I saw Jeff Grossman rightfully mentioned Antarctic search leaders on top of that contest, but the point was dismissed, someone even suggesting that collecting meteorite in Antarctica is not hunting but fishing; myself I hunt and fish animals and I have collected meteorites both in Antarctica and hot deserts. Recovering meteorite in Antarctica is not like going to Tucson show, it requires a lot of walking, and expertise is spotting the right rock (the story about a single black stone among a 100% pure ice surface is only a small part of it). Even when done on snowmobile, that is not such a fun when the skin of you face fell frozen or when you risk ending in a crevasse. It requires also a personal engagement (who is ready not to have a shower and fresh food for months?) that is not equaled by tours in hot deserts. Remember that the Japanese are out of there home for more than one year when they go for meteorites. So definitely Antarctic recovery expedition is hunting, unless you disqualify as hunters people being paid by governments to collect meteorites. -- Pierre __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] WHO IS THE BEST AND MOST SUCCESSFUL METEORITE HUNTER OUT THERE?
as a response to Martin, yes one could consider that those who recover meteorite for a living are hunters and those who do it for Science and academic carrier are searchers, but this leaves apart those that are not academics but do this as a passion and live on another job. Moreover the activity is the same, the only difference being the source of money on the personal bank account. I hunt animals for fun, not for feeding my family; still I consider myself as a hunter in that activity. -- Pierre __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] (no subject)
dear list members for a research project I am looking for meteorites from the Sahara or Dhofar that may have been used by prehistoric man. If you think you have such man shaped artefact in your NWAs (or other collection area) please contact me off-list; we can expertise it. regards -- Pierre __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] prehistoric artefact made of meteorites
(sorry for not including a subject in my previous post) dear list members for a research project I am looking for meteorites from the Sahara or Dhofar* that may have been used by prehistoric man. If you think you have such man shaped artefact in your NWAs (or other collection area) please contact me off-list; we can expertise it. regards *and more generally Africa and Middle East -- Pierre __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Researchers find ancient meteorite dust
Dear Jason thanks for the news. The PNAS paper can be downloaded here: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2008/11/14/0806049105.abstract note that L. Folco is not from Pisa but Siena -- Pierre __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] WOW magnetic south?
Dear list following Rob message, I would say some knowledge exists on the core behavior and the reversal processes. You can see more at the adress below, including a movie of a simulated reversal. http://www.psc.edu/science/Glatzmaier/glatzmaier.html The uneasy thing to understand in the reversing dynamo is that you do not have to reverse the sense of liquid flow to reverse the field: the same flow pattern can sustain both sense of magnetic field (and coupled electric currents). Second usual misconception is that the axial rotation part (constant distance to Earth center) of the flow does not create any field, it is just the vertical flow (due to heat exchange) that matters, although this flow is organized through Coriolis force by the Earth rotation. -- Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Franco L3.8
Dear list this is to confirm that the L3.8 M. Franco is selling under the unofficial name SWA01003 (or no name at all) has been examined by various experts and classified in agreement with the Nom Com rules (by A. Jambon in Paris). What delayed the publication in MetBull seems to be that M. Franco ask that his meteorites should not get a NWA name (meaning nobody knows exactly where they come from and to which they are paired) but get the same privilege as the Labennes' Saharas, i.e. having a precise relative position but undisclosed absolute position. The commitee is probably reluctant to multiply these privileges and adhoc names, but may not use the same coordinate system as for the Sahara as the undisclosed reference point should be different for Franco and Labennes... However I am sure that they will come to an agreement, mostly because it is the obvious interest of the community to have one Sahara like entry for hundreds of paired specimens instead of hundreds of different NWA entries like when different samples of the same fall is classified in different labs leading to the use of unecessary lab and researcher time. So everybody can get these really nice chondrites (I got a big one myself...) for little money and be reassured that they will get an official name in next Bulletin. Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] avoirdupois ?
Sterling wrote: Hi, Tom aka James, Avoirdupois is the fancy French term for common British measures .. Well list I object! this is not genuine french, just a british expression forged to look like french. In the Web page: http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2000/08/29.html you read: avoirdupois is from Middle English avoir de pois, goods sold by weight, from Old French aveir de peis, literally, goods of weight, from aveir, property, goods (from aveir, to have, from Latin habere, to have, to hold, to possess property) + de, from (from the Latin) + peis, weight (from Latin pensum, weight). Avoirdupois weight is a system of weights based on a pound containing 16 ounces or 7,000 grains. Compare apothecaries' weight and troy weight. The correct French could be avoir du poids, which in fact describe someone suffering obesity or being important in the society! In french there is no such term avoirdupois to describe prescientific units still in use by remote tribes who have still not taken profit of the second leg of arithmetic (multiplication, the first being addition) when making measurements. We just use the local name. By the way in latin languages thinking and weighing have the same origin. Interesting, isn't it? -- Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Galim (a) and Galim(b) question??????
Dear dave here is the answer: Title: The Galim LL/EH polymict breccia: Evidence for impact-induced exchange between reduced and oxidized meteoritic material Authors: Rubin, Alan E. Journal: Meteoritics, vol. 32, pages 489-492 Publication Date: 07/1997 Origin: METIC Bibliographic Code: 1997MPS...32..489R Abstract Galim is a polymict breccia consisting of a heavily shocked (shock stage S6) LL6 chondrite [Galim (a)] and an impact-melted EH chondrite [Galim (b)]. Relict chondrules in Galim (b) served as nucleation sites for euhedral enstatite grains crystallizing from the impact melt. Many of the reduced phases typical of EH chondrites (e.g., Si-bearing metallic Fe-Ni; Ti-bearing troilite) are absent. Galim (b) was probably shock-melted while in contact with a more oxidized source, i.e., Galim (a); during this event Si was oxidized from the metal and Ti was oxidized from troilite. Galim (a) contains shock veins and recrystallized, unzoned olivine. The absence of evidence for reduction in Galim (a) may indicate that the amount of LL material greatly exceeded that of EH material; shock metamorphism may have taken place on the LL parent body. Shock-induced redox reactions such as those inferred for the Galim breccia appear to be restricted mainly to asteroids because the low-end tail of their relative-velocity distribution permits mixing of intact disparate materials (including accretion of projectiles of different oxidation states) whereas the peak of the distribution leads to high equilibration shock pressures (allowing impact-induced exchange between previously accreted, disequilibrated materials). Galim probably formed by a two-stage process: (1) accretion to the LL parent body of an intact EH projectile at low relative velocities, and (2) shock metamorphism of the assemblage by the subsequent impact of another projectile at significantly higher relative velocities. conclusion: a single fall can be made of different classes. The fall place is heavily vegetated so there is no chance that accidentally an older fall (b) was found in the strewnfielf of a)... Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Use of magnets for meteorite hunting
rob says: P.S. Perhaps a compass can be used as a weaning device? It generates a minimal magnetic field, and yet is sensitive enough to detect most H- and L-chondrites. yes compass is able to detect (by a small deviation from N when you approach the stone) the magnetization of a say L or H. But it is tricky. The problem is that the effect is quite different in the natural state and on a piece that has already been submitted to high field (touching with a magnet or lightning stroke). For example a LL after magnet exposure make a larger deviation on the compass than a H in its natural state and then: It can easily discriminate between LL and L, L and H or even eucrite and howardite, for example. Ahhh, but what about weathering? If you can't see into the interior of a meteorite, you'll know nothing about its weathering grade. The range of responses corresponding to the various weathering grades of an H (for instance) will easily intersect that of the L's and probably even unweathered LL's. Presumably similar difficulties will be encountered with achondrites. --Rob Right again (but I was told that efficient communication should convey only one message per time!). So lesson 2 is: a strongly (W2-3) weathered H is as magnetic as a fresh L then Mark says: Hi Robert and list I'm curious about this latent magnetic field. If its anything like that used for paleomag, of what real interest is it except that the meteorite came from a body large enough to develope a magnetic field which, if my understanding of magnetics is fair enough would only tell you the body developed a field. And this may be debatable if there was enough heat around the area where the meteorite came from that the field isn't set in stone because of a major impact or something ripped the parent body apart (as may be the case with irons and mesosiderites and such). If the rock is still plastic when this occurs, the field is subject to many other factors and may not even represent the parent body's field anyway. Mark There are instances where this paleomagnetic signal is of high interest, but of course it's very complicated and a lot of meteorites are rather dumb in this field. But taking the example of martians, the paleomagnetic signal of SNC has triggered many scientific publications (among which 3 in Science I guess) discussing for example the low temperature transfer of ALH84001 from Mars to Earth and thus the possibility that Earth may have already been contaminated by martian bugs in the past (see e.g.: http://www.spaceref.com/Directory/Astrobiology_and_Life_Science/panspermia/, ver y controversial, I warn you!). Unfortunately every Saharan or Omani SNC has been tested with a magnet and therefore are definitively useless to investigate further this issue. Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Expeditions n Magnetic Destruction
Rafael wrote: Thats kinda a hard view point, cuz it test us between 2 things. Destroying a meteorite for science or obtaining more items to our collections. Of course I dont want to harm any meteorites for science, even though they are only for collection. But one collector never knows when will the meteorites will be used for science...and more if its a unique find... is this a matter of ethics?...Is there another way for not destroying this record? yes there is a way, both preserving the magnetic memory and highly improving the magnetic discrimination: a simple magnetic susceptibility probe, pocket sized, that gives you in a second a quantitative estimate of the amount of metal or magnetite in a piece of rock. It costs 1800 $. Seller is: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (I don't have any interest in that company!). It can easily discriminate between LL and L , L and H or even eucrite and howardite, for example. I can provide oflist as an attachment a leaflet for this device as well as a chart of magnetic susceptibility versus meteorite class. I will probably be in next Ensisheim show, in particular to demonstrate this instrument. Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Expeditions
Hi Pierre, Like most tools, one uses it with some degree of discretion. I learned about it from Steve Schoner, one of the greatest hunters ever. I first used one with him in an L/LL strewn field and he, at least, did so with excellent results. So, at least some people consider it to be of some use. Of course, I do not suggest attempting to use a screw driver to hammer nails, but that does not make a screw driver useless. Michael Right (as I said in my first message)! If you are combing Holbrook or Gold Basin strewfields the cane may be useful; besides, what you will recover has anyhow not a tremendous scientific value. But the thrill of research and hunting is also to have a chance to find something unexpected. If you narrow your selection to only the material that sticks you may loose the Lafayette sister that was hiden among your L/LL strewnfield... Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Expeditions
.. But I have just one question: How do u use the meteorite cane?... I have a big magnet from a floppy disk, small in size, but man its powerful. Do I use it to sweep the area with it? or just when a rock looks different?...I have that big magnet attached to a cane, plus smaller magnets for checking rocks. How does a meteorite cane works the best? Ola Rafael This is more less a repost from about one year ago: use of strong magnet cause irreversible damage to the magnetic memory of a meteorite and therefore decreases its scientific interest. Besides if you collect only rocks sticking to your cane you will get slags but leave on the ground almost all rarities: rumurutites, angrites, eucrites,diogenite, howardite, martian, lunars, even some LL and CV. If you try to increase magnet power to compensate, you may collect terrestrial basalts. So what's the use of it, unless you know you are in a L or H strewfield??? Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Question About Iturralde Structure, Bolivia
Abstract to be presented by Wasilewski et al. at the IUGG Meeting Sapporo Japan (July 2003): ITURRALDE: A POSSIBLE IMPACT STRUCTURE AT THE EDGE OF THE AMAZON IN NORTHERN BOLIVIA The Iturralde structure is possibly the Earth's most recent big impact event recording a collision with a meteor or comet that might have occurred between 11,000 and 30,000 years ago. The most convincing evidence for the existence of a crater comes from the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission (SRTM) image of the structure. The feature appears as a quasi-circular closed depression about 20 meters in depth resembling a cookie cutter cutting heavily vegetated soft sediments and pampas at the edge of the Bolivian Amazon. A barometric traverse from inside the crater to outside the rim supports the 20 meter depth contrast suggested by the SRTM data. A magnetic survey across the crater was able to define a symmetry along an east-west axis with the center being lower than the rim. Base station records were able to identify the Equatorial Electrojet (EEJ) geomagnetic diurnal signal attributed to a narrow electric current sheet flowing eastward along the magnetic dip equator. The soil magnetic susceptibility remains low and featureless until about 1 meter depth where lateritic nodules identifiable with the downward migration of iron are found. As yet there are no identifiable evidences of shocked quartz in the quartz sand collected in soil pits inside the crater, along river cuts, and at the rim. The expedition did not yield the smoking gun required for verification. There does exist oil exploration geophysical survey data ( gravity, magnetics) which include the Iturralde structure in the survey areas and there are seismic lines near the structure. We hope to be able to obtain this information perhaps by presentation time. The vegetation inside the crater appears different from that outside the crater but this may simply reflect the inundated nature of the depressed structure which may be underwater for a good portion of the rainy season. A return to the structure to drill for evidence of shocked material may be the only way to prove that the structure is a crater. (sounds rather unconclusive) Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A Metallic Asteroid May Have Coincided WithThe Fall Of Rome
Dear Sterling thanks for your in depth historical discussion. I agree that the historical record is not so plain, and that the epoch was not the one of Plinius or Ciceron. However as we talk about St Augustine, if he was writing after the impact(I did not check the dates, anyhow the dating of the Sirente crater rim has an error bar also), then mentionning it would have been a very poweful argument for his thesis: the destruction of Roma is the will of God... I just want to precise following your question This implies excavation. Do cows excavate?, that I agree there is evidence for excavation but I wrote shepherds simply dig them as a reservoir or wells. Of course this is a suggestion, I have no evidence, but I would say it fits better the sum of evidences in Ormo et al. paper. Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A Metallic Asteroid May Have Coincided WithThe Fall Of Rome
http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/science/story/0,12450,889308,00.html A metallic asteroid may have coincided with the fall of Rome, says Duncan Steel The Guardian (United Kingdom) February 6, 2003 .. No matter what the trajectory of the asteroid entry, it would have been a phenomenal sight from Rome, and scarier still for those closer to ground zero. .. dear list sorry to be asteroid skeptic again but this newspaper article goes really beyond acceptable journalistic extrapolation. The Sirente crater lies about 60 km E of Roma and they are various moutain ridges up to 2500 m in between the two places. Roma is near sea level and the first mountain range eastward is only 15 km away. So if the trajectory was westward, no way that it would have been a phenomenal sight from Rome. even if the trajectory was in sight, can fear trigger the fall of Rome? These people were educated, they knew about comets and eclipses, they were used to natural disasters, frequent floods and earthquakes, volcanic eruption (remember Pompei!). A 100 m crater has negligible climatic effect. If the event was so phenomenal how come that there is no historical record (again compare to Pompei)??? We are not talking about a remote place in Homeric time. All this scenario is mere nonsense in terms of history. But the biggest trouble is that the Sirente crater lacks to fulfill any of the criteria for asteroid impact, despite careful search by Ormo et al: no evidence of shock or fused material, not a single extraterrestrial crumb found (just Ni free rust), no real ejecta layer (just a 10 m wide 1-2 m high rim of reworked soil and sediment, which is quite small for a 100 m wide crater!), no geophysical anomaly, no nothing, just a circular pond and a bunch of meter sized depressions... A reasonable explanation for all these structures, knowing that the place has been frequented for many centuries by millions of cattle looking for water, rare in these calcareous ranges, is that the shepherds simply dig them as a reservoir or wells. -- Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] triolite inclusions
Steve / Steve: Isn't Pyrrhotite Fe(1-x)S? True. Troilite is distinct from Pyrrhotite. It was simply the best terrestrial analog, found in abundance on Earth and easily referenced, that I could come up with at the time for S. Arnold's post. to be more precise there are different sorts of pyrrhotite: a first one that is very like troilite (FeS): non magnetic (in fact antiferromagnetic) with formula Fe9S10 and hexagonal system, and the second one (not mentionning extra and more exotic forms) Fe7S8 which is magnetic and monoclinic. The last one is more common in terrestrial rocks, but also present in SNC and Rumuritites (probably as a mixture with Fe9S10) Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] triolite inclusions
>Hello Pierre and list, > >Now I am really confused. "Rocks From Space" both first and second edition >list troilite as a magnetic iron sulfide. Wrong! But it was common in the old days to misinterprete monoclinic pyrrhotite as troilite. Real pure troilite is less magnetic than olivine. Though it is ignored in the >general index of both it is listed in the glossaries. In "The Cambridge >Encyclopedia Of Meteorites" it is ignored in the index but is listed in >Appendix C Minerals in Meteorites. This entry states that it "is not >magnetic". I have a Gibeon slice with a large inclusion (2"x1.25") which I >have always assumed to be troilite. This inclusion is quite magnetic. > Well here it is probably really troilite but with numerous micro inclusions of metal (or even magnetite as in the graphite inclusions), thus accounting for the magnetism of the bulk. XRD is a good way to check. PS:how can you judge that the inclusion is magnetic by itself and not as a side effect if it is surrounded by metal Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] (no subject)
John inquired: > Can anyone tell me if any of the different numbered NWA > R-chondrites are paired? Like NWA 753 and 978, both R3.8's Hello John and List, According to the Meteoritical Bulletin #85, NWA 753 is a R3.9 rumurutiite chondrite, and its fayalite is Fa38.6±3.2 (range Fa20-41) and: NWA 978 is classified as an R3.8 chondrite in Met.Bull. #86 with a slightly higher Fa value of: Fa41.9±0.2 In other words, they are probably unpaired. well difference between 3.8 and 3.9 is a bit relative to the observer and by definition of type 3, fayalite amount is highly variable so it cannot be used for pairing purposes! Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA R-chondrite pairings
Dear John I posted a very similar message about 6 months ago, without great success... So here is my personal feeling: it looks unlikely statistically that two different R3.8 or R4 come out of NWA, but not impossible : there are 2 nakhlites and 4 shergottites in NWA. It is true that 753 and 978 or 800 and Ouzina show different weathering and colors, but this happens on different pieces of the same fall. What I would bet very highly unlikely is that more than 2 different R3.8 or R4 exist! No type of detailed study can solve the problem definitely, as even if every chemical and petrographic features would be the same in 753 and 978 for example, it does not tell for sure that they are the same fall: they may be different fall from the same asteroidal outcrop; there are many examples of that in ordinary chondrites (undistinguishable different falls). Once again we touch the major drawback of NWAs: no precise location means unsolvable incertitude in pairing. We can just talk about probability and with the squeletic R population, statistics are nearly meaningless. (My unconvinced bet is that 753 and 978 are the same fall, but I would not be surprised of the opposite) Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Juvinas?
Hello List, Juvinas seems to be a meteorite that is hard to find info on. ?? Strange! There are several tens of scientific publications on this typical eucrite since 1821 (see Catalogue of Meteorites). Ask Bernt for a listing... Over the 91 kg collected, there is still an impressive pumpkin sized piece in Paris Museum (I saw it), with amazing freshness: highly glossy fusion crust and sparkling disseminated metal flakes, no traces of oxidation... A lot of museums have pieces of several 100g. The place of fall is SE Massif Central, in the Ardèche region. Juvinas is a very small mountain village, country of chestnuts, goat cheese and trouts, granitic basement toped by volcanoes among the most recent in France (40-80 ka). Great place to visit! Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Sahara Sand and Michigan Dirt
repost from Saturday. It seemed lost. Sorry if you got it already Hello black magnetic spherules in Michigan soils: for sure it is industrial ashes (from steel work, coal burning, cementery, engine mufflers etc.) for which the fallout is numerous orders of magnitude above micrometeorite fallout, even at long distance from industrial area. Magnetic grains in Saharan sands: iron oxydes (mostly hematite and goethite, but also maghemite, titanomaghemite(magnetite)) are practically the second constituent of Saharan sands after quartz. They again have much probably nothing to do with meteorites, but are remains of weter climates producing iron concentration is soils. Rare earth magnets do attract hematite. Besides various regions of Sahara (southern Morroco, Hoggar, Tibesti, SE Egypt...) have been covered once by volcanic rocks, very rich in magnetic grains. Sorry for these chilling points Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Question
Dear Rhett,Bernd and list In general when obtaining a measurement outside the norm (here Fa% for H within 17-20), the inference this is an anomalous meteorite should not be put forward before answering the questions: -does the norm apply to this case? (obviously not for type 3 which by definition show a large range in Fa%, with an average showing a standard deviation of several %) -then is there systematic bias? (possible for weathered finds, oxidation of olivine starts by turning Fe to rust therefore decreasing Fa%) -is the Fa% measurement well calibrated and what is the error bar? (It is really difficult to get absolute precision below half a percent for this parameter) -is the studied sample representative? -is the meteorite correctly classified? (possible case of Oviedo which may turn to be an L) excluding type 3, finds and incompletely classified meteorites and allowing for a half percent error leave practically no anomalies in Bernd's list! By the way why is Burnwell not fully classified? Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NWA889
Dear list several pieces from Matteo that were analysed carefully (microprobe, and so on) revealed that the clasts are not exotic (i.e. carbonaceous or achondritic) but just L6: black is impact melt and gray is moderately shocked, the matrix being L3.8. It remains to be demonstrated that Matteo's pieces are really paired with Dean's. The pictures are not so similar Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Saharan R4s
Dear list does someone have a clear idea of the status of the R4s bought in Morroco? Ouzina is the oldest (metbull 2000), NWA800 is not yet declared, NWA845 and 851 are in the provisional MetBull2002, Bessey dumped recently unnamed material, the Labennes also have R4... Are these possibly all paired, which ones are clearly from different strewfields? In particular the analyses quoted for Ouzina and NWA800 are not significantly different... Thanks in advance Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Earth nearly hit by large asteroid??
Dear list I am a bit surprised by all this fuss in the media every few months about how lucky we are escaping once again the big hit. As a scientist I can say that the probability that an asteroid cruising nearer to earth than the Moon actually hit the earth is 1/1*; the public will laugh about these threatening news long before the 1th anoucement like the one we just have... As a hunter when my bullet hit the ground 100** meters away from the deer I do not shout Yeah, I almost got it, I try to disappear into the hole, full of shame.. *: if you want a more precise figure: square of the ratio of earth radius to moon-earth distance. * equivalent size ratio with the deer being the Earth. Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] weird spanish meteorite/slag
Dear list there is a PhD thesis just finishing on this stone (Getafe) in Madrid museum. So we should have more news in the near future. If it is a meteorite it is an extremely weird one, the closest could be d'Orbigny (no chondrules, not magnetic, lot of large bubbles). The C14 data seems to imply industrial origin but on the other hand various features do not fit with common slag, in particular the testimony of the car driver (the stone hit while he was driving in open country without any trucks, bridge, cliff, people etc. around) who seems to be a reasonable person... Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Help with a Strange Rock
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it also exhibits a very weak magnetic field. I have never heard of this associated with a meteorite. Any ideas of what it might be? Thanks, Ron What do you mean? That the rock deviates a compass? Once you have "treated" it with a magnet most meteorites as well as various terrestrial rocks, slags, etc. do deviate a compass because they have acquired a large remanence by exposure to the magnet stray field. Please describe more precisely your "magnetic experiment" and a more precise answer can be formulated! Cheers Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: Vs: [meteorite-list] Re:Kaali meteorite - Estonia, 400BC?
Hello list a short comment on Pytheas, who was a greek citizen of Phocea, now Marseille in SE France. He may have been the first geophysicist as he is renown for his proposal that tide is linked to the movement of Moon and Sun relative to Earth. He formed this idea probably by being the first Greek to sail in North Sea (finding a way to circonvene Carthage blocus on Gibraltar), so to experience much bigger tides than the few tens of cm available in his home mediteranean sea. His legendary travel to collect amber (in Baltica) and tin (in Cornwall and possibly Scotland) and find trade routes independent of Carthage rule is said to have ended in an extraordinary way: feared of affronting Carthage troops again (he escape miraculously the first time thanks to huge fog and to the outgoing surface current in Gibraltar strait), he is reported to have sailed from practically Kaali to the Black sea, partly using lakes and rivers (from Ladoga to the Dniepr?) and partly sliding his boot on land!! He succeeded to get back home safe after a few years of travelling. More impressive than Ulysse's pleasant cruise, isn't it? Unfortunately his original writing are not preserved and his book has been rebuilt using fragments quoted by other authors, so one must be cautious. But his visit to Kaali freshly formed crater area is among the most likely part of the story. Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] TRINITITE
Hi list I am ready to accept that this material is safe, it is just the idea that some kind of nuclear waste be object of collection that puzzle me! besides [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And I am tired of the conspiracy theorist-- there are boards for that elsewhere and I am tired of non scientific based speculation ad nausea I am tired of being tired... Well I am not at all supporting this theory, neither non-scientific speculations. The plutonium injection experiment I was referring to is just plain public truth, that makes you wonder about the confidence to give in official accounts about military based activity, that's all... For those in the list who do not know the story, here is an official US gov. site on it: http://tis.eh.doe.gov/ohre/roadmap/roadmap/part1.html#Ch1Intro And it is a scientific fact that trinitite is loaded with artificial high activity isotopes of Pu, Cs,etc.(it is even advertised as a sure way to check the authenticity of their trinitite sample by some sellers!) the question is just how much of these elements is still there and if this amount is negligible in terms of safety or not. Anyhow, each one is free to collect what he likes to, even atomic garbage, but I should win some reward for trigerring the list activity on a subject neither meteoritic nor commercial or slanderous Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] TRINITITE
I am amazed that some people dare collecting this material! Army people say its radioactivity should have come now to acceptable level, but first who is able to trust 100% such quote (from people who experimented injection of plutonium into humans without telling them) and second even if on average this material may be relatively safe, one cannot exclude that a given sample is by chance loaded with a speck of plutonium... so no thanks, even if cheaper than natural impact glass! Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites that fell into the water
In Grady catalog there are several meteorites from Pacific Ocean. They have been dredged on the sea floor at several km depth by a Russian oceanographic vessel. Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] FREE METEORITE CONTEST TWO! NWA's!
African meteorites are cool because they don't pretend, no pedigree, no academic record, no Saint Machin no Something County, no sophisticated outfit, they just offer you what they are, an unnamed flower of the universe, just for the thrill of the last explorers, the crude nakedness of outer space and Sahara emptyness, the spirit of warm all star nights of the mother of all mankind and civilizations: AFRICA Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] lunar/martian magnetism
Hello list as argued in preceeding post the answer is it magnetic cannot be answered by yes or no. With a strong magnet the most magnetic Martian, Los Angeles, can be weakly attracted, due to its content of magnetite (1-2%), may be NWA817 also. Al the others are too weak (half a percent of magnetite or magnetic sulfide). For lunar I have no personal experience but regolith breccia can contain up to 2% of metallic iron, while maria basalt has one per mil at most. Therefore some lunar should be (weakly) attracted by NdFeB magnets. However this metal is heterogeneously distributed so some fragments will be attracted, some not. I have a quantitative magnetic chart for all meteorite types; ask me for the file off list. Michael Groetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am a little afraid to try it on the purchased specimens I own as I may loose them :-) What do you mean? As for the harm done by magnet on samples and the dubious utility of this test please refer to my February 16 post and subsequent discussion! Joyeuses Paques Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Nutcase Relativity
Dear Pierre, My apologies if I seemed to be blaming French scientists for ignorance re the true nature of meteorites. no offense! IYou just gave me a good opportunity to highlight the contribution of Biot (who happens to be more famous for his work on magnetism) on l'Aigle... Prof. P. Rochette CEREGE University of Aix-Marseille 3 BP 80, Europôle de l'Arbois 13545 Aix en Provence Cedex 4 FRANCE Tel : 04 42 97 15 62 Fax : 04 42 97 15 95 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Nutcase Relativity
In earlier ages, people who claimed to have seen stones fall from the sky, were they too considered to be a little touched? French peasent: I have seen stones falling from the heavens!! French professor: Uneducated dolt. Nutcase!! Charlie about arrogant French professors: in 1803 the French academy was, besides strong individuals around Europe like Chladni and Howard, a leading group for the historical acceptance of the reality of meteorites So a bad example (but I admit there are good examples). Now about the totally non-scientific discourse of Hoagland Webpage (http://www.enterprisemission.com/samp5.htm) here are clear examples: By contrast, the arches are regularly spaced, nearly identical in length and breadth, and wrap around the surrounding features (a highly reflective glass tube!). They have completely different albedo properties than the surrounding terrain (indicating they are made from different material), and are restricted to the specific area of the glass tunnel. Note also that they are sharp edged and tubular, suggesting that they are individual structural features rather than drifting mounds of piled up sand. In JGR planet issue E10 from 2001, there are tens of pictures showing that Mars is covered by regularly spaced nearly identical in length and breadth dunes (that 's a consequence of wind and sand pile dynamics) with sharp edge and different albedo from the basement just because the basement is solid rock or not the same material. Go along the beach after a windstorm and you will be able to shoot similar pictures of drifting small dunes on a wet flat sand surface or on pavement. To try and explain away such unique and obviously non-geologic objects as the products of mere wind erosion is laughable. What these object appear to be are the supports for some sort of underground tunnel or transportation system. No comments! If you do not accept the possibility of alternative explanations from the beginning there is no science. To their marginal credit, scientists at MSSS have at least acknowledged the (geologically) inexplicable nature of these features. According to MSSS's Ken Edgett: classical argument of nutcases: look science do not explain everything, that means I am right in choosing the answer of faith (in ET) rather than science. Science relies on the acceptance that there is always something unknown and that Truth is not given to us but built by us. Secondly the scientists were not talking about the specific features in these pictures! Now this guy should care about worms on asteroids too: look at the last picture (120 m) of the descent of NEAR (http://near.jhuapl.edu/): there is obviously the tail of a big snake frightened by the probe and trying to escape. Probably NASA officials classified the bottom part of the picture where the head of the monster was visible, but they know now that it has swallowed the precious probe (so they fear that environmentalists will sue them for threatening the survival of this animal by feeding it with hazardous items) Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Strange Martian Surface Feature
Hi, List, Ok, it's a little off topic, but... A friend of mine belongs to a group one of whom found the following site displaying an image of a Martian surface feature: http://www.enterprisemission.com/samp5.htm This site is one maintained by a notorious whacko and fringe-theorist, Hoagland, the author of Monuments of Mars, so I told them he was a nutcase; forget it. And they properly came back me with Forget about the nutcase; what the Hell is this? And I didn't have a good answer. In fact, I don't think I've got any answer. Enigmatic is the best description I could come up with and that's just a word for an excuse. Since the link to the original Mars Observer Narrow Angle Camera image on the Hoagland site is broken, here's the correct link for those that want to puzzle over it in greater detail: http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/ab1_m04/images/M0400291.html Any ideas? What the Hell is this? Sterling K. Webb obviously a set of dunes, chanelled by topography. Dunes are much more common on Mars than ET. The uncommon thing is the chanelling of the dunes but it is easely accounted for by the valley topography. Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Article wanted
Hello all- I am in search of a copy of the article: The Mbale meteorite shower. Meteoritics. vol. 29 no. 2. March 1994. pp. 246-254 Can anyone out there provide me with a photocopy, back issue, or on-line archive? Thanks in advance, Bonjour go to this page: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/article_service.html and you can download for free all old Meteoritics articles you want! Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NWA978 and El Tigre
Dear list I have two enquiries 1. I just got on E-bay a slice of NWA978. A beautiful R3, no doubt! However the seller just mention "classified by UCLA". Is someone aware of a published account on this rare NWA? I am wondering about pairing with NWA573... 2. a fellow collector has got a while ago from a US dealer: El Tigre Mexico 1993 Dec. 23 L6 however it is not officially declared, a surprising situation for a meteorite fallen 8 years ago. Anyone knows about this meteorite? (it looks effectively like a fresh L6) Thanks in advance! Pierre __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] have mercy for meteorite memory!
Tracy wrote: I would be interested in the results of a study on the paleomagnetic memory of meteorites. Who did it, and what specifically was found about ALH8001, and the initial energy state of the solar system/universe? or what did you expect to find? besides Bernd answer, see this page: http://www.gps.caltech.edu/users/jkirschvink/pdfs/panspermia.pdf (PS: I do not share Kirschvink's conclusions...) Unfortunately, I expect that many meteorite hunters will continue to use the magnet as a base test for determing whether a suspect rock is a meteorite. It's cheap, easy, and saves time and effort if you have to decide whether a rock is worth packing out of an inacessible location. good: next time you leave a 50 kg martian or lunar on the ground because it is not magnetic and too far from your car trunk, let me know the place, I am ready to rent an helicopter... Rick wrote: Which meteorites would NOT be attracted to a magnet. Lunar and Mars meteorites to my knowledge anymore out their?? I wrote in my fisrt message: a lot of rare meteorites (angrite, HED, SNC, R and CM chondrites, some LL and aubrites) are not attracted by a magnet. I can add some CV. If you have some Allende: it is not magnetic (in the sense of the magnet; with the right probe, it has a strong magnetic signal!) Prof. P. Rochette CEREGE University of Aix-Marseille 3 BP 80, Europôle de l'Arbois 13545 Aix en Provence Cedex 4 FRANCE Tel : 04 42 97 15 62 Fax : 04 42 97 15 95 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] metric system
Here is another one that crossed my mind. If light travels 18600 miles per second. How long will it take in TIME for light to travel 3/8 of an inch??? Rick, please reformulate your query in metric system and any schoolboy (at least european ) can answer Metric system was designed more than two centuries ago by some bright people (mostly french!); it has saved innumerable time and mental energy since for billions of people. May be you should try it! Prof. P. Rochette CEREGE University of Aix-Marseille 3 BP 80, Europôle de l'Arbois 13545 Aix en Provence Cedex 4 FRANCE Tel : 04 42 97 15 62 Fax : 04 42 97 15 95 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
