Re: Donations

[Lucretia]

I have limited funds available, living on Social Security, but I have a lot of 
free time available and could certainly solicit hardware donations from 
corporations and universities if I knew better the required specifications of 
what the project is looking for and knew where they ought to be sent to.

I know back in America that universities dump a lot of hardware, but I don't 
know what is useful to the project and if shipping would make it prohibitive.

As an artist I spent many hours via email connecting with galleries and buyers, 
so I kind of know my way around solicitation. Artists make very good beggars.

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 04:58, deich...@placebonol.com 
<[deich...@placebonol.com](mailto:On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 04:58, 
deich...@placebonol.com < wrote:

> also, consider https://www.openbsd.org/want.html as another form of donation
>
> 73
> diana

Re: Donations

[deich...@placebonol.com]

also, consider https://www.openbsd.org/want.html as another form of donation

73
diana

Re: Donations

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi,

Theo de Raadt wrote on Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 12:14:43PM -0600:
> Joel Carnat  wrote:
>> Le 26 oct. 2023 à 16:38, Ingo Schwarze  a écrit :

>>> The advice is extremely simple:
>>> 
>>> If you can, donate directly to the OpenBSD project because that means
>>> 1. the donation can be used for any purpose, including all purposes
>>>that can be funded by the foundation and some that can't
>>> 2. it causes less overhead, less paperwork, less bookkeeping effort,
>>>hence fewer distractions of developers from actual development
>>> 
>>> Use the Foundation only if *you* have a specific reason why your
>>> specific donation can only be made through the Foundation and not
>>> directly.  If you don't know, then it seems to me you have no specific
>>> reason, so donating directly is better.

>> Maybe it should be written this way on the donations.html page
>> of the web site. Having the reference to "PayPal recurring" for the
>> Fondation coming first made me assume this was the preferred way
>> to donate.
>> 
>> But if I understand you properly, using the other PayPal links
>> should rather be used, right?

> Sorry Ingo, that's incorrect.

Oops, sorry for sending outdated and/or misleading information.

In that case, a change to donations.html probably isn't needed.

Yours,
  Ingo

> In my view it is better to donate via the OpenBSD Foundation, and then
> use their not-for-profit procedures.
> 
> The direct donations can be considered 'fast cash'.  I'm thrilled there
> is a bit of fast cash available so I can immediately solve some problems
> with urgency -- without reaching out to the OpenBSD Foundation and
> waiting for their approval process.  But for most things (hackathons,
> hardware, other major project costs) I believe the transparency they
> supply is a good thing.

Re: Donations

[Theo de Raadt]

Joel Carnat  wrote:

> > Le 26 oct. 2023 à 16:38, Ingo Schwarze  a écrit :
> > 
> > The advice is extremely simple:
> > 
> > If you can, donate directly to the OpenBSD project because that means
> > 1. the donation can be used for any purpose, including all purposes
> >that can be funded by the foundation and some that can't
> > 2. it causes less overhead, less paperwork, less bookkeeping effort,
> >hence fewer distractions of developers from actual development
> > 
> > Use the Foundation only if *you* have a specific reason why your
> > specific donation can only be made through the Foundation and not
> > directly.  If you don't know, then it seems to me you have no specific
> > reason, so donating directly is better.
> > 
> > Yours,
> >  Ingo
> 
> Maybe it should be written this way on the donations.html page of the web 
> site. Having the reference to "PayPal recurring" for the Fondation coming 
> first made me assume this was the preferred way to donate.
> 
> But if I understand you properly, using the other PayPal links should rather 
> be used, right?

Sorry Ingo, that's incorrect.

In my view it is better to donate via the OpenBSD Foundation, and then
use their not-for-profit procedures.

The direct donations can be considered 'fast cash'.  I'm thrilled there
is a bit of fast cash available so I can immediately solve some problems
with urgency -- without reaching out to the OpenBSD Foundation and
waiting for their approval process.  But for most things (hackathons,
hardware, other major project costs) I believe the transparency they
supply is a good thing.

Re: Donations

[Joel Carnat]

> Le 26 oct. 2023 à 16:38, Ingo Schwarze  a écrit :
> 
> The advice is extremely simple:
> 
> If you can, donate directly to the OpenBSD project because that means
> 1. the donation can be used for any purpose, including all purposes
>that can be funded by the foundation and some that can't
> 2. it causes less overhead, less paperwork, less bookkeeping effort,
>hence fewer distractions of developers from actual development
> 
> Use the Foundation only if *you* have a specific reason why your
> specific donation can only be made through the Foundation and not
> directly.  If you don't know, then it seems to me you have no specific
> reason, so donating directly is better.
> 
> Yours,
>  Ingo

Maybe it should be written this way on the donations.html page of the web site. 
Having the reference to "PayPal recurring" for the Fondation coming first made 
me assume this was the preferred way to donate.

But if I understand you properly, using the other PayPal links should rather be 
used, right?

Thanks,
Joel C.

Re: Donations

[Maria Morisot]

Ingo, you have been very kind and thoughtful in all of your replies; for this I 
thank you.

I guess I'm used to projects I like actually wanting help from the community. 
The OpenBSD model baffles me.

For a long time I have had a great love for the project. I think I started 
during 2.6 and bought several CD sets and posters. I switched to Linux at some 
point, but I always highly respected the OpenBSD project. I even sent some 
books via snail mail to Canada as a donation.

I started using it again exclusively about a month ago, and have enjoyed it 
immensely.

I can give a little cash, if that's all they want. I'll stop trying to offer my 
unwanted talents and find somewhere else to spend those.

Re: Donations

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi Maria,

Maria Morisot wrote on Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 03:10:46PM +0600:

> I see there are two types of donation receivers, the project and the
> foundation.  What is the difference between how the money is spent
> between the two.

How the money is *spent* is not not the main difference between
the two.  Well, strictly speaking, since the Foundation needs to
have Bylaws and yada yada yada, there are a few formal restriction
on how Foundation money can be spent, but as for any foundation,
this Foundation is designed in such a way that such minor formal
restrictions do not cause any significant trouble in practice.

So people who want to donate need not worry about the differences
in *spending*.  From a practical point of view, the difference between
the two is entirely about needs of the *donator*.

> The foundation from what it looks like goes to paying the bills
> for the infrastructure, how about donations to the project.
> 
> I've already many times over stated my willingness to donate time;

You cannot really donate time to OpenBSD, in the way you would sell
your working time to an employer, giving the time to the employer
and the employer then telling you what to do.  Managing employees
requires the *employer* to do some work of their own, for example
directing the employees what to do and making sure they don't
suffer harm while working.  The OpenBSD project is not prepared
to do any such employer's work.

What you can do is donate *products* of your work, like you would sell
products while working in a self-employed manner, except that you have
neither customers nor revenue.  The most common and most welcome way of
doing that is by submitting patches.  There is a fine legal distinction
related to that: with OpenBSD, in contrast to some other free software
projects, you do not actually donate your submitted patches to OpenBSD
like you would, for example, have to donate them to the FSF when
contributing code to the GNU project, by transfering your (economic
part of your) Copyright to the FSF.  Instead, you merely publish your
patches under a free license, retaining all your Copyright yourself,
and OpenBSD is then free to include and redistribute your work.
There is also a merely terminological distinction: we do not call
submissions of patches "donations."

> I am also an artist and a poet.  Perhaps I could work on an OpenBSD
> related poetry chapbook.  I remember you used to have songs for
> every release.

Commission of art and poetry for the OpenBSD project works by
invitation only, and i don't know how or on which grounds such
invitations are decided.  The process certainly isn't public.
It never mattered to me because i'm neither an artist nor a poet.  :)

> I want to donate money but I just want to see where it goes
> so I can tailor my choice of which.

The advice is extremely simple:

If you can, donate directly to the OpenBSD project because that means
 1. the donation can be used for any purpose, including all purposes
that can be funded by the foundation and some that can't
 2. it causes less overhead, less paperwork, less bookkeeping effort,
hence fewer distractions of developers from actual development

Use the Foundation only if *you* have a specific reason why your
specific donation can only be made through the Foundation and not
directly.  If you don't know, then it seems to me you have no specific
reason, so donating directly is better.

Yours,
  Ingo

Donations

[Maria Morisot]

I see there are two types of donation receivers, the project and the 
foundation. What is the difference between how the money is spent between the 
two.

The foundation from what it looks like goes to paying the bills for the 
infrastructure, how about donations to the project.

I've already many times over stated my willingness to donate time; but it took 
a while to find a niche. I am also an artist and a poet. Perhaps I could work 
on an OpenBSD related poetry chapbook. I remember you used to have songs for 
every release.

I want to donate money but I just want to see where it goes so I can tailor my 
choice of which.
--
Google doesn't need to
know every time I fart.

Re: ..Re AMDGPU Re: Plans to port the amdgpu(4) driver? (=to support Radeons made 2014/2015 and after.) Hardware/other donations needed?

[Chris Cappuccio]

> > Ignoring the parts of the shared
> > drm/ttm code that would have to be updated the latest
> > drivers/gpu/drm/amd in linux has over 1.5 million lines of code. Which
> > is multiple times larger than the complete OpenBSD kernel source...
> 

Despite everything you replied with, Jonathan's reply still accurately
details the overriding concern. 

The code base is so huge, not only is porting a herculean task, but who wants
this much code in their kernel to run the...video card?

As a matter of fact, the existing AMD code can be extended to support the newer
hardware without the huge import.

Realistically, neither porting amdgpu nor extending the existing code are going
to happen any time soon. There's no straightforward path to solve this problem.

..Re AMDGPU Re: Plans to port the amdgpu(4) driver? (=to support Radeons made 2014/2015 and after.) Hardware/other donations needed?

[Joseph Mayer]

On April 25, 2018 7:08 PM, Jonathan Gray  wrote:
..
> > The Radeon GPU:s are important in OpenBSD's ecosystem as they are the
> > only way to increase graphics functionality, that not involves changing
> > CPU to Intel's latest, and hence change motherboard and other hardware.
> > Do you have plans to port amdgpu?
> > Would particular hardware donations or other donations be of help?
>
> I have no plans regarding amdgpu.
>
> Most people seem to be interested from the point of view of polaris/vega
> which are not supported in linux 4.4. Ignoring the parts of the shared
> drm/ttm code that would have to be updated the latest
> drivers/gpu/drm/amd in linux has over 1.5 million lines of code. Which
> is multiple times larger than the complete OpenBSD kernel source...

Hi Jonathan,

Thank you for your previous response.

I have talked to Alex Deucher (he's on #radeon FreeNode IRC, agd5f) as
well as hwentlan who both work for AMD in depth about the AMDGPU
driver, and they clarify that this is where AMD will give all future
efforts, so from what I understand over time porting AMDGPU will become
more and more relevant and at some point a pushing priority.

>From talking to them, the most important features in AMDGPU appear to
be:

 * GPU scheduler, splits GPU resources between processes
   The GPU scheduler helps load-balance both memory bandwidth and
   rendering work within the GPU between different programs that use 3D
   concurrently, shown on display at same time.

   E.g., say you have two processes submitting work to the GPU. If one
   is submitting work very fast, it's jobs can will get lined up and it
   will monopolize the GPU time if it's first come first server. The
   scheduler makes sure both processes get access to the GPU.

   (No such thing in the old driver)

 * Display handling code (called "DC" in the AMDGPU codebase):
   Lots more display features compared to Radeon: atomic modesetting
   framework on Linux, DP MST, FBC, etc., GPU scheduler, fine grained
   clock and voltage control (similar to wattman in windows), more
   power features supported, etc.

   (DC is the name of the display handling code in AMDGPU.)

 * Fine grained control of the power states (minor tweaks to voltages
   or clocks, etc.)

   (Radeon supported dynamic power management, where the GPU clocks
   could be changed dynamically based on demand, but not fine grained.)

 * Support for MST hubs (so more monitors connected to an MST hub, get
   identified as separate monitors by the computer)

 * 8K monitor support via MST based on 2x displayport connectors

 * DP MST in the old Radeon driver is experimental and doesn't work
   that well, in AMDGPU done well.

 * DRM sync objects support, which enabled a bunch of OGL and EGL
   extensions

 * AMDGPU may get support for freesync/adaptive sync/vrr in the future
   and in the more distant future support for HDR, as in up to 16 bits
   per color.

   hwentlan explains, "for the consumer it means that brights are
   brighter, darks are darker, and you still see tons of details in the
   shadows, even though your screen might show you glare in other
   areas. There are many different HDR formats and ways of tonemapping
   image data into those formats. This requires new interfaces between
   kernel and user-mode, and requires the kernel display driver to
   understand and be able to program the HW to output the required
   formats".

Joseph

Re: Plans to port the amdgpu(4) driver? (=to support Radeons made 2014/2015 and after.) Hardware/other donations needed?

[Patrick Harper]

I have a FirePro V5900 (Cayman part from the Northern Islands family) which I 
run with EXA acceleration on 6.2. H264 video with a resolution of 3840x2160 and 
25fps play flawlessly with the OpenGL acceleration in mpv (on a WSXGA+ 
display). Ostensibly this card can drive UHD monitors at their native refresh 
rate that support the MST mode (two virtual panels at 1920x2160), while its 
longer brother, the V7900, can do SST mode.

-- 
  Patrick Harper
  paia...@fastmail.com

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018, at 11:00, Joe Gidi wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 10:49:53AM -0400, Joe Gidi wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 09:08:12PM +1000, Jonathan Gray wrote:
> >> >> drivers/gpu/drm/amd in linux has over 1.5 million lines of code.
> >> Which
> >> >> is multiple times larger than the complete OpenBSD kernel source...
> >>
> >> Thanks for this update!
> >>
> >> Just to clarify, before I spend a bunch of money on new hardware, should
> >> I
> >> be able to use a Radeon R7 250 to drive a 4k monitor via DisplayPort
> >> with
> >> this updated driver?
> >>
> >> Thanks again,
> >
> > It appears that 'R7 250' can mean either a cape verde or oland radeon
> > depending on the model.  Both are GCN parts.
> >
> > 4k 30Hz should be possible with HDMI, 4k 60Hz on HDMI requires HDMI 2.0
> > Both claim support for displayport 1.2 which should be able to do
> > 4k 60Hz.  HDMI 2.0 seems to only be on later hardware with DCE >= 11
> > carrizo (not carrizo-l which is mullins), polaris etc.
> >
> > With the low end radeons displayport is sometimes only available on
> > oem models of cards sold as options for systems marketed as business
> > desktops or workstations.
> >
> > And as mentioned earlier for acceleration you'll currently have to build
> > a different version of Mesa than what OpenBSD releases/snapshots ship
> > with.
> 
> Hi Jonathan,
> 
> Thanks for the detailed answer!
> 
> As best I can tell from wading through the mess of marketing names and
> specifications, accelerated 4k video is currently not an option with
> Radeon cards; the older cards don't support high-enough resolutions, and
> the newer ones don't have acceleration support yet due to the Mesa
> problem. Looks like I might need to buy an Intel machine or wait for the
> Mesa issues to get resolved.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Joe
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Joe Gidi
> j...@entropicblur.com
> 
> "You cannot buy skill." -- Ross Seyfried
> 

Re: Plans to port the amdgpu(4) driver? (=to support Radeons made 2014/2015 and after.) Hardware/other donations needed?

[Joe Gidi]

> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 10:49:53AM -0400, Joe Gidi wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 09:08:12PM +1000, Jonathan Gray wrote:
>> >> drivers/gpu/drm/amd in linux has over 1.5 million lines of code.
>> Which
>> >> is multiple times larger than the complete OpenBSD kernel source...
>>
>> Thanks for this update!
>>
>> Just to clarify, before I spend a bunch of money on new hardware, should
>> I
>> be able to use a Radeon R7 250 to drive a 4k monitor via DisplayPort
>> with
>> this updated driver?
>>
>> Thanks again,
>
> It appears that 'R7 250' can mean either a cape verde or oland radeon
> depending on the model.  Both are GCN parts.
>
> 4k 30Hz should be possible with HDMI, 4k 60Hz on HDMI requires HDMI 2.0
> Both claim support for displayport 1.2 which should be able to do
> 4k 60Hz.  HDMI 2.0 seems to only be on later hardware with DCE >= 11
> carrizo (not carrizo-l which is mullins), polaris etc.
>
> With the low end radeons displayport is sometimes only available on
> oem models of cards sold as options for systems marketed as business
> desktops or workstations.
>
> And as mentioned earlier for acceleration you'll currently have to build
> a different version of Mesa than what OpenBSD releases/snapshots ship
> with.

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for the detailed answer!

As best I can tell from wading through the mess of marketing names and
specifications, accelerated 4k video is currently not an option with
Radeon cards; the older cards don't support high-enough resolutions, and
the newer ones don't have acceleration support yet due to the Mesa
problem. Looks like I might need to buy an Intel machine or wait for the
Mesa issues to get resolved.

Thanks again,
Joe


-- 

Joe Gidi
j...@entropicblur.com

"You cannot buy skill." -- Ross Seyfried

Re: Plans to port the amdgpu(4) driver? (=to support Radeons made 2014/2015 and after.) Hardware/other donations needed?

[bijan]

On 04/25/18 17:34, mazocomp wrote:

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 09:08:12PM +1000, Jonathan Gray wrote:

drivers/gpu/drm/amd in linux has over 1.5 million lines of code.  Which
is multiple times larger than the complete OpenBSD kernel source...


Wow, this driver is fatter than elephant.

Anyway, thank you for updating radeondrm(4), now I can
use my PC with Kaveri APU.


Updating to the latest snapshot and the same (good) results.
the HDMI/VGA outputs are detected and changing the brightness is
working on my Lenovo G50-45 (AMD A8-6410 with AMD Radeon R5
Graphics[1]). Thank you :-)

[1]: http://dmesgd.nycbug.org/index.cgi?do=view&id=3586

Re: Plans to port the amdgpu(4) driver? (=to support Radeons made 2014/2015 and after.) Hardware/other donations needed?

[Jonathan Gray]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 10:49:53AM -0400, Joe Gidi wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 09:08:12PM +1000, Jonathan Gray wrote:
> >> drivers/gpu/drm/amd in linux has over 1.5 million lines of code.  Which
> >> is multiple times larger than the complete OpenBSD kernel source...
> 
> Thanks for this update!
> 
> Just to clarify, before I spend a bunch of money on new hardware, should I
> be able to use a Radeon R7 250 to drive a 4k monitor via DisplayPort with
> this updated driver?
> 
> Thanks again,

It appears that 'R7 250' can mean either a cape verde or oland radeon
depending on the model.  Both are GCN parts.

4k 30Hz should be possible with HDMI, 4k 60Hz on HDMI requires HDMI 2.0
Both claim support for displayport 1.2 which should be able to do
4k 60Hz.  HDMI 2.0 seems to only be on later hardware with DCE >= 11
carrizo (not carrizo-l which is mullins), polaris etc.

With the low end radeons displayport is sometimes only available on
oem models of cards sold as options for systems marketed as business
desktops or workstations.

And as mentioned earlier for acceleration you'll currently have to build
a different version of Mesa than what OpenBSD releases/snapshots ship
with.

Re: Plans to port the amdgpu(4) driver? (=to support Radeons made 2014/2015 and after.) Hardware/other donations needed?

[Patrick Harper]

I have a response from an anon poster on the Linux sub on Reddit that may or 
may not be well informed (take it with a pinch of salt), but their posts were 
ostensibly more popular than my queries about amdgpu's mooted bloat, is there 
anyone here who can make sense of their points as to their legitimacy?

>That's nothing. First of all, majority of it is in header files as 
>initialization data and various tables, and the second thing is that  > it's 
>more compartmentalized as compared to radeon (read: there is a lot of 
>duplication).
>
>Memory wise, the cost of the 'bloat' is laughable. And code path wise it's 
>quite comparable to radeon. You don't execute every  > single byte of code 
>just because it's there. You hit some code paths often, some rarely, and some 
>never. Critical paths are the  > ones you want to optimize the hell out of.
>
>Code bloat is a different thing. Usually it refers to layers upon layers of 
>abstraction and crufty interfaces that no longer really  > fit, but are kept 
>for various compatibility/legacy reasons. And even then, it doesn't 
>necessarily translate to performance   > penalties. Usually bloat is 
>something that hits developers rather than users, since large messy codebase 
>is difficult to> maintain.
>
>P.S. There is nothing in modern AMD GPUs that makes them unsupportable by 
>older radeon driver per se, specs are > completely open, 
>nothing prevents you from coming up with your own 'slim' driver. It's just 
>that it has been decided that,   > moving on, new hardware support will be 
>added to amdgpu only. The size of amdgpu results from deliberate architectural 
>> approaches.
>
>First rule of any optimization every dev should know: profile, profile, 
>profile! Without careful measurements you cannot make > proper assessment of 
>performance, even very experienced devs get bit by that when making casual 
>assessments.
>
>If you feel you can trim it down, you're welcome to remove code you deem 
>unnecessary and submit patches to the tree.

Those of us who have a bloaty mainstream browser with Javascript enabled can 
read the whole exchange at 
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/7u54d3/lisa_su_we_are_ramping_production_of_gpus/dtkcysq/?context=3

-- 
  Patrick Harper
  paia...@fastmail.com

Re: Plans to port the amdgpu(4) driver? (=to support Radeons made 2014/2015 and after.) Hardware/other donations needed?

[Jeremie Courreges-Anglas]

On Wed, Apr 25 2018, Jonathan Gray  wrote:

[...]

> Most people seem to be interested from the point of view of polaris/vega
> which are not supported in linux 4.4.  Ignoring the parts of the shared
> drm/ttm code that would have to be updated the latest
> drivers/gpu/drm/amd in linux has over 1.5 million lines of code.  Which
> is multiple times larger than the complete OpenBSD kernel source...

Made my day...

-- 
jca | PGP : 0x1524E7EE / 5135 92C1 AD36 5293 2BDF  DDCC 0DFA 74AE 1524 E7EE

Re: Plans to port the amdgpu(4) driver? (=to support Radeons made 2014/2015 and after.) Hardware/other donations needed?

[mazocomp]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 09:08:12PM +1000, Jonathan Gray wrote:
> drivers/gpu/drm/amd in linux has over 1.5 million lines of code.  Which
> is multiple times larger than the complete OpenBSD kernel source...
> 

Wow, this driver is fatter than elephant.

Anyway, thank you for updating radeondrm(4), now I can
use my PC with Kaveri APU.

Re: Plans to port the amdgpu(4) driver? (=to support Radeons made 2014/2015 and after.) Hardware/other donations needed?

[Jonathan Gray]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 03:10:15AM -0400, Joseph Mayer wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> Radeon drivers are specific per Radeon microarchitecture and Radeon
> microarchitecture version. 
> 
> The Radeon microarchitectures to date are TS 1, TS 2, TS 3, GCN 1, GCN
> 2, GCN 3, GCN 4, GCN 5 (TS = TeraScale and GCN = Graphics Core Next),
> in that ascending chronological order. [1]

Terascale is r600, so there are more than just that.
The drivers in Mesa are radeon (r100), r200, r300, r600, radeonsi.

> 
> 
> First, thank you very much jsg@ for that you committed full OpenBSD
> kernel support for the radeondrm(4) driver today! [2]
> 
> Previously, while Xorg's radeondrm(4) driver supported all cards up to
> GCN 2, OpenBSD's kernel supported the Radeons up to GCN 1 only. The
> radeon(4) man page listed all cards up to GCN 2, but only the cards up
> to GCN 1 were actually supported by OpenBSD.
> 
> jsg@'s diff today extends radeondrm(4) to support Radeons up to GCN 2.

It is worth reiterating that there is no self contained 2d acceleration
in the xorg driver for GCN/radeonsi parts.

Acceleration is only via glamor and requires Mesa to work.
The radeonsi driver in Mesa is not built as it has build time and run
time dependencies on libLLVM and libelf which are not in src or xenocara.
And to use libLLVM from LLVM 6.0 a newer version of Mesa than what is in
the xenocara tree is required (ie 17.3).  Mesa 17.x triggers some kind of
graphical corruption on Intel hardware for reasons still unclear so
xenocara remains on Mesa 13.0.6.

> 
> 
> The major move with Radeon graphics cards today, is their move from the
> radeondrm(4) driver (called "xf86-video-ati" by Xorg and "radeon" on
> Linux) [3], to the "amdgpu" driver (called "xf86-video-amdgpu" by Xorg)
> [4].
> 
> All new Radeon are driven by the amdgpu driver:
> 
> The radeondrm driver supports all Radeon cards up to and including GCN
> 2. GCN 2 was released 2013 and the last GCN 2 card was released 2015.
> No more GCN 2 cards will be coming.

Parts get rebadged through multiple generations of marketing names,
especially on the low end.

> 
> The amdgpu driver supports all new Radeon cards from GCN 1.2 and up.

There are build time options for 'enable experimental support for SI asics'
and 'enable support for CIK asics' which seem to not be the default.

> 
> This means the amdgpu driver is needed for GCN 3 and newer Radeons, and
> GCN 3 cards started coming to the market 2014.
> 
> amdgpu(4) has not been ported to OpenBSD yet. [5]
> 
> 
> I am not perfectly clear about the max feature set in the GCN 2 cards,
> maybe I will make a post later about what you can and cannot do with
> amdgpu(4) (not yet ported) vs. radeondrm(4) cards, however more modern
> features like Displayport 1.4 and 1.3 support, support for higher
> resolutions, MST (Multi-Stream Transport), newer video codecs with
> higher resolutions etc., appear to be only in the newer GCN 5 and GCN 4
> cards, which are supported only by the amdgpu driver.

There are MST parts in radeondrm though they may be experimental.
Many of the GCN parts covered by radeondrm are advertised as being able
to support 4k SST/MST on displayport.

> 
> The Radeon GPU:s are important in OpenBSD's ecosystem as they are the
> only way to increase graphics functionality, that not involves changing
> CPU to Intel's latest, and hence change motherboard and other hardware.
> 
> 
> Do you have plans to port amdgpu?
> 
> Would particular hardware donations or other donations be of help?

I have no plans regarding amdgpu.

Most people seem to be interested from the point of view of polaris/vega
which are not supported in linux 4.4.  Ignoring the parts of the shared
drm/ttm code that would have to be updated the latest
drivers/gpu/drm/amd in linux has over 1.5 million lines of code.  Which
is multiple times larger than the complete OpenBSD kernel source...

Plans to port the amdgpu(4) driver? (=to support Radeons made 2014/2015 and after.) Hardware/other donations needed?

[Joseph Mayer]

Hi!

Radeon drivers are specific per Radeon microarchitecture and Radeon
microarchitecture version. 

The Radeon microarchitectures to date are TS 1, TS 2, TS 3, GCN 1, GCN
2, GCN 3, GCN 4, GCN 5 (TS = TeraScale and GCN = Graphics Core Next),
in that ascending chronological order. [1]


First, thank you very much jsg@ for that you committed full OpenBSD
kernel support for the radeondrm(4) driver today! [2]

Previously, while Xorg's radeondrm(4) driver supported all cards up to
GCN 2, OpenBSD's kernel supported the Radeons up to GCN 1 only. The
radeon(4) man page listed all cards up to GCN 2, but only the cards up
to GCN 1 were actually supported by OpenBSD.

jsg@'s diff today extends radeondrm(4) to support Radeons up to GCN 2.


The major move with Radeon graphics cards today, is their move from the
radeondrm(4) driver (called "xf86-video-ati" by Xorg and "radeon" on
Linux) [3], to the "amdgpu" driver (called "xf86-video-amdgpu" by Xorg)
[4].

All new Radeon are driven by the amdgpu driver:

The radeondrm driver supports all Radeon cards up to and including GCN
2. GCN 2 was released 2013 and the last GCN 2 card was released 2015.
No more GCN 2 cards will be coming.

The amdgpu driver supports all new Radeon cards from GCN 1.2 and up.

This means the amdgpu driver is needed for GCN 3 and newer Radeons, and
GCN 3 cards started coming to the market 2014.

amdgpu(4) has not been ported to OpenBSD yet. [5]


I am not perfectly clear about the max feature set in the GCN 2 cards,
maybe I will make a post later about what you can and cannot do with
amdgpu(4) (not yet ported) vs. radeondrm(4) cards, however more modern
features like Displayport 1.4 and 1.3 support, support for higher
resolutions, MST (Multi-Stream Transport), newer video codecs with
higher resolutions etc., appear to be only in the newer GCN 5 and GCN 4
cards, which are supported only by the amdgpu driver.

The Radeon GPU:s are important in OpenBSD's ecosystem as they are the
only way to increase graphics functionality, that not involves changing
CPU to Intel's latest, and hence change motherboard and other hardware.


Do you have plans to port amdgpu?

Would particular hardware donations or other donations be of help?

Thanks,
Joseph

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon

https://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/

[2] https://marc.info/?t=15166466154&r=1&w=2

[3] http://man.openbsd.org/OpenBSD-6.3/radeon.4

https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-ati/tree/

https://www.mankier.com/4/radeon

https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/xserver-xorg-video-radeon/radeon.4.en.html

[4] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMDGPU-DC-Accepted

https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-amdgpu/tree/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMDGPU

https://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/

https://www.mankier.com/4/amdgpu

https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/xserver-xorg-video-amdgpu/amdgpu.4.en.html

[5] Those I talked to clarified this however also relevant refs:

As seen by the absence of any "amdgpu" man page:

http://man.openbsd.org/OpenBSD-6.3/amdgpu

No "xf86-video-amdgpu" directory among the Xenocara drivers:

https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/xenocara/driver/

As of today on misc@ "amdgpu" has only been mentioned once, which was in the 
context of not being supported:

https://marc.info/?t=15166466154&r=1&w=2

Re: Per-device multiqueuing would be fantastic. Are there any plans? Are donations a matter here?

[Mikael]

Bump

2017-02-10 22:11 GMT+08:00 Mikael :

> 2017-02-10 18:39 GMT+08:00 David Gwynne :
>
>> > 2017-02-09 16:41 GMT+08:00 David Gwynne :
>>
>  ..
>
>> i can go into more detail if you want.
>>
>> cheers,
>> dlg
>>
>
> Hi David,
>
> Thank you - yes please go into more detail!
>
> Also on a more concrete level I would be the most curious to understand
> how far away we would be from having concurrent IO access (e.g. on various
> distances from the hardware: via some lowlevel block device API that would
> be mp-safe / via open("/dev/rsd0c") + read() that would be mp-safe / that
> the filesystem would be mp-safe so open("myfile") + read() would be all
> concurrent)?
>
> Then, just to get an idea of what's going on, regarding how the system is
> doing concurrent IO, or how you like to call it: While I had a
> pre-understanding that the kernel's big lock could be playing in so that it
> would be a performance constraint, the people I talked to seemed to suggest
> that the kernel is doing IO in a procedure-call-based code-blocking,
> synchronous way today, which only runs one command in the sata comand queue
> concurrently, and so I got an impression that concurrency-friendly IO and
> higher IOPS would require a reconstruction of the IO system where IO
> operations are represented internally rather by data structures run by an
> asynchronous mechanism. How is it actually, and where is it going?
>
> Regarding mp-safe drivers, I would guess ahci.4 and nvme.4 are the most
> commonly used interfaces for SSD:s.
>
> Best regards,
> Mikael

Re: Per-device multiqueuing would be fantastic. Are there any plans? Are donations a matter here?

[Mikael]

2017-02-10 18:39 GMT+08:00 David Gwynne :

> > 2017-02-09 16:41 GMT+08:00 David Gwynne :
>
 ..

> i can go into more detail if you want.
>
> cheers,
> dlg
>

Hi David,

Thank you - yes please go into more detail!

Also on a more concrete level I would be the most curious to understand how
far away we would be from having concurrent IO access (e.g. on various
distances from the hardware: via some lowlevel block device API that would
be mp-safe / via open("/dev/rsd0c") + read() that would be mp-safe / that
the filesystem would be mp-safe so open("myfile") + read() would be all
concurrent)?

Then, just to get an idea of what's going on, regarding how the system is
doing concurrent IO, or how you like to call it: While I had a
pre-understanding that the kernel's big lock could be playing in so that it
would be a performance constraint, the people I talked to seemed to suggest
that the kernel is doing IO in a procedure-call-based code-blocking,
synchronous way today, which only runs one command in the sata comand queue
concurrently, and so I got an impression that concurrency-friendly IO and
higher IOPS would require a reconstruction of the IO system where IO
operations are represented internally rather by data structures run by an
asynchronous mechanism. How is it actually, and where is it going?

Regarding mp-safe drivers, I would guess ahci.4 and nvme.4 are the most
commonly used interfaces for SSD:s.

Best regards,
Mikael

Re: Per-device multiqueuing would be fantastic. Are there any plans? Are donations a matter here?

[David Gwynne]

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 7:11 pm, Mikael  wrote:
>
> 2017-02-09 16:41 GMT+08:00 David Gwynne :
> ..
> hey mikael,
>
> can you be more specific about what you mean by multiqueuing for disks? even
a
> reference to an implementation of what you’re asking about would help me
> answer this question.
>
> ill write up a bigger reply after my kids are in bed.
>
> cheers,
> dlg
>
> Hi David,
>
> Thank you for your answer.
>
> The other OpenBSD:ers I talked to also used the wording "multiqueue". My
understanding of the kernel's workings here is too limited.
>
> If I would give a reference to some implementation out there, I guess I
would to the one introduced in Linux 3.13/3.16:
>
> "Linux Block IO: Introducing Multi-queue SSD Access on Multi-core Systems"
> http://kernel.dk/blk-mq.pdf
>
> "Linux Multi-Queue Block IO Queueing Mechanism (blk-mq)"
>
https://www.thomas-krenn.com/en/wiki/Linux_Multi-Queue_Block_IO_Queueing_Mech
anism_(blk-mq)
>
> "The multiqueue block layer"
> https://lwn.net/Articles/552904/
>
> Looking forward a lot to your followup.

sorry, i feel asleep too.

thanks for the links to info on linux mq stuff. i can understand what it
provides. however, in the situation you are testing im not sure it is
necessarily the means to addressing the difference in performance you’re
seeing in your environment.

anyway, tldr: you’re suffering under the kernels big giant lock.

according to the dmesg you provided you’re testing a single ssd (a samsung
850) connected to a sata controller (ahci). with this equipment all operations
between the computer and the actual disk are all issued through achi. because
of way ahci operates, operations on a specific disk are effectively serialises
at this point. in your setup you have multiple cpus though, and it sounds like
your benchmark runs on them concurrently, issuing io through the kernel to the
disk via ahci.

two things are obviously different between linux and openbsd that would affect
this benchmark. the first is that io to physical devices is limited to a value
called MAXPHYS in the kernel, which is 64 kilobytes. any larger read
operations issued by userland to the kernel get cut up into a series of 64k
reads against the disk. ahci itself can handle 4 meg per transfer.

the other difference is that, like most of the kernel, read() is serialised by
the big lock. the result of this is if you have userland on multiple cpus
creating a heavily io bound workload, all the cpus end up waiting for each
other to run. while one cpu is running through the io stack down to ahci,
every other cpu is spinning waiting for its turn to do the same thing.

the distance between userland and ahci is relatively long. going through the
buffer cache (i.e., /dev/sd0) is longer than bypassing it (through /dev/rsd0).
your test results confirm this.

the solution to this problem is to look at taking the big lock away from the
io paths. this is non-trivial work though.

i have already spent time working on making sd(4) and the scsi midlayer
mpsafe, but haven’t been able to take advantage of that work because both
sides of the scsi subsystem (adapters like ahci and the block layer and
syscalls) still need the big lock. some adapters have been made mpsafe, but i
dont think ahci was on that list. when i was playing with mpsafe scsi, i gave
up the big lock at the start of sd(4) and ran it, the midlayer, and mpi(4) or
mpii(4) unlocked. if i remember correctly, even just unlocking that part of
the stack doubled the throughput of the system.

the work ive done in the midlayer should mean if we can access it without
biglock, accesses to disks beyond adapters like ahci should scale pretty well
cpu cores because of how io is handed over to the midlayer. concurrent
submissions by multiple cpus end up delegating one of the cpus to operate on
the adapter on behalf of all the cpus. while that first cpu is still
submitting to the hardware, other cpus are not blocked from queuing more work
and returning to user land.

i can go into more detail if you want.

cheers,
dlg

Re: Per-device multiqueuing would be fantastic. Are there any plans? Are donations a matter here?

[Mikael]

2017-02-09 16:41 GMT+08:00 David Gwynne :
..

> hey mikael,
>
> can you be more specific about what you mean by multiqueuing for disks?
> even a
> reference to an implementation of what you’re asking about would help me
> answer this question.
>
> ill write up a bigger reply after my kids are in bed.
>
> cheers,
> dlg


Hi David,

Thank you for your answer.

The other OpenBSD:ers I talked to also used the wording "multiqueue". My
understanding of the kernel's workings here is too limited.

If I would give a reference to some implementation out there, I guess I
would to the one introduced in Linux 3.13/3.16:

"Linux Block IO: Introducing Multi-queue SSD Access on Multi-core Systems"
http://kernel.dk/blk-mq.pdf

"Linux Multi-Queue Block IO Queueing Mechanism (blk-mq)"
https://www.thomas-krenn.com/en/wiki/Linux_Multi-Queue_Block_IO_Queueing_Mech
anism_(blk-mq)

"The multiqueue block layer"
https://lwn.net/Articles/552904/

Looking forward a lot to your followup.

Best regards,
Mikael

Re: Per-device multiqueuing would be fantastic. Are there any plans? Are donations a matter here?

[David Gwynne]

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 12:42 pm, Mikael  wrote:
>
> Hi misc@,
>
> The SSD reading benchmark in the previous email shows that per-device
> multiqueuing will boost multithreaded random read performance very much
> e.g. by ~7X+, e.g. the current 50MB/sec will increase to ~350MB/sec+.
>
> (I didn't benchmark yet but I suspect the current 50MB/sec is system-wide,
> whereas with multiqueuing the 350MB/sec+ would be per drive.)
>
> Multiuser databases, and any parallell file reading activity, will/would
> see a proportional speedup with multiqueing.

hey mikael,

can you be more specific about what you mean by multiqueuing for disks? even a
reference to an implementation of what you’re asking about would help me
answer this question.

ill write up a bigger reply after my kids are in bed.

cheers,
dlg

>
>
> Do you have plans to implement this?
>
> Was anything done to this end already, any idea when multiqueueing can
> happen?
>
>
> Are donations a matter here, if so about what size of donations and to who?
>
> Someone suggested that implementing it would take a year of work.
>
> Any clarifications of what's going on and what's possible and how would be
> much appreciated.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Mikael

Per-device multiqueuing would be fantastic. Are there any plans? Are donations a matter here?

[Mikael]

Hi misc@,

The SSD reading benchmark in the previous email shows that per-device
multiqueuing will boost multithreaded random read performance very much
e.g. by ~7X+, e.g. the current 50MB/sec will increase to ~350MB/sec+.

(I didn't benchmark yet but I suspect the current 50MB/sec is system-wide,
whereas with multiqueuing the 350MB/sec+ would be per drive.)

Multiuser databases, and any parallell file reading activity, will/would
see a proportional speedup with multiqueing.


Do you have plans to implement this?

Was anything done to this end already, any idea when multiqueueing can
happen?


Are donations a matter here, if so about what size of donations and to who?

Someone suggested that implementing it would take a year of work.

Any clarifications of what's going on and what's possible and how would be
much appreciated.


Thanks,
Mikael

Re: donations

[Edgar Pettijohn]

On 16-08-20 19:24:10, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > It was mentioned in another post that sales of the OpenBSD CD's
> > loses money.
> 
> The effort expended vs payout received is probably on par with the
> newspaper route I operated at age 16.
> 
> I could be doing far better things than making CDs.
> 
> For 20 years I really had no other choice.
> 
> > Would it be better to make dontations to the foundation?
> 
> Absolutely.  Look at the results:
> 
> http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/activities.html
> 
done.
-- 
Edgar Pettijohn

Re: donations

[Theo de Raadt]

It is all described here:

http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html

Re: donations

[Donald Allen]

Certainly tax consequences need to be considered, but by people who understand
the tax situation in Canada who can guide us from a position of knowing what
they are talking about. I don't think that includes either of us.

I do know something about how US tax law and if, for example, I were to send
money to Richard Stallman to be used in the same way I suggested in my post re
Theo, he could turn over what he doesn't need to the Free Software Foundation,
which is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization, and deduct that donation from
his taxable income.

But it is pure speculation on my part that this is analogous to the situation
with Theo and the OpenBSD Foundation, since I know nothing about Canadian tax
law or how the OpenBSD Foundation is set up. So I'll stop typing and let
people who actually understand the situation take over.

> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2016 10:01:56 -0400
> From: t...@parlementum.net
> To: misc@openbsd.org
> Subject: Re: donations
>
> That works very differently as far as taxes go. Theo would have to start
reporting
> it as income  if Canada works like the US, and things are interesting from
there.
>
> On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 07:36:40AM -0400, Donald Allen wrote:
> > But isn't it still better to send the money directly to you, since the
> > Foundation doesn't support you financially? If I understand the different
pots
> > of money correctly, this gives you maximum flexibility to use what you
need
> > for your own support and if there is any excess, you can send it to the
> > Foundation.
> >
> >
> > > From: dera...@openbsd.org
> > > To: ed...@pettijohn-web.com
> > > CC: misc@openbsd.org
> > > Subject: Re: donations
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 19:24:10 -0600
> > >
> > > > It was mentioned in another post that sales of the OpenBSD CD's
> > > > loses money.
> > >
> > > The effort expended vs payout received is probably on par with the
> > > newspaper route I operated at age 16.
> > >
> > > I could be doing far better things than making CDs.
> > >
> > > For 20 years I really had no other choice.
> > >
> > > > Would it be better to make dontations to the foundation?
> > >
> > > Absolutely.  Look at the results:
> > >
> > > http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/activities.html

Re: donations

[Patrick Dohman]

That’s the point of the new regulatory audits ;)

> On Aug 21, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Daniel Wilkins  wrote:
>
> That works very differently as far as taxes go. Theo would have to start
reporting
> it as income  if Canada works like the US, and things are interesting from
there.
>
> On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 07:36:40AM -0400, Donald Allen wrote:
>> But isn't it still better to send the money directly to you, since the
>> Foundation doesn't support you financially? If I understand the different
pots
>> of money correctly, this gives you maximum flexibility to use what you
need
>> for your own support and if there is any excess, you can send it to the
>> Foundation.
>>
>>
>>> From: dera...@openbsd.org
>>> To: ed...@pettijohn-web.com
>>> CC: misc@openbsd.org
>>> Subject: Re: donations
>>> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 19:24:10 -0600
>>>
>>>> It was mentioned in another post that sales of the OpenBSD CD's
>>>> loses money.
>>>
>>> The effort expended vs payout received is probably on par with the
>>> newspaper route I operated at age 16.
>>>
>>> I could be doing far better things than making CDs.
>>>
>>> For 20 years I really had no other choice.
>>>
>>>> Would it be better to make dontations to the foundation?
>>>
>>> Absolutely.  Look at the results:
>>>
>>> http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/activities.html

Re: donations

[Daniel Wilkins]

That works very differently as far as taxes go. Theo would have to start 
reporting
it as income  if Canada works like the US, and things are interesting from 
there.

On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 07:36:40AM -0400, Donald Allen wrote:
> But isn't it still better to send the money directly to you, since the
> Foundation doesn't support you financially? If I understand the different pots
> of money correctly, this gives you maximum flexibility to use what you need
> for your own support and if there is any excess, you can send it to the
> Foundation.
> 
> 
> > From: dera...@openbsd.org
> > To: ed...@pettijohn-web.com
> > CC: misc@openbsd.org
> > Subject: Re: donations
> > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 19:24:10 -0600
> >
> > > It was mentioned in another post that sales of the OpenBSD CD's
> > > loses money.
> >
> > The effort expended vs payout received is probably on par with the
> > newspaper route I operated at age 16.
> >
> > I could be doing far better things than making CDs.
> >
> > For 20 years I really had no other choice.
> >
> > > Would it be better to make dontations to the foundation?
> >
> > Absolutely.  Look at the results:
> >
> > http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/activities.html

Re: donations

[Donald Allen]

But isn't it still better to send the money directly to you, since the
Foundation doesn't support you financially? If I understand the different pots
of money correctly, this gives you maximum flexibility to use what you need
for your own support and if there is any excess, you can send it to the
Foundation.


> From: dera...@openbsd.org
> To: ed...@pettijohn-web.com
> CC: misc@openbsd.org
> Subject: Re: donations
> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2016 19:24:10 -0600
>
> > It was mentioned in another post that sales of the OpenBSD CD's
> > loses money.
>
> The effort expended vs payout received is probably on par with the
> newspaper route I operated at age 16.
>
> I could be doing far better things than making CDs.
>
> For 20 years I really had no other choice.
>
> > Would it be better to make dontations to the foundation?
>
> Absolutely.  Look at the results:
>
> http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/activities.html

Re: donations

[Theo de Raadt]

> It was mentioned in another post that sales of the OpenBSD CD's
> loses money.

The effort expended vs payout received is probably on par with the
newspaper route I operated at age 16.

I could be doing far better things than making CDs.

For 20 years I really had no other choice.

> Would it be better to make dontations to the foundation?

Absolutely.  Look at the results:

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/activities.html

donations

[Edgar Pettijohn]

It was mentioned in another post that sales of the OpenBSD CD's
loses money.  Would it be better to make dontations to the 
foundation?  I don't really need the CD's so it doesn't really
matter to me which I do.
-- 
Edgar Pettijohn

BitCoin donations to the OpenBSD Foundation.

[Bob Beck]

We've recently noticed a few attempts at larger Bitcoin donations to
the OpenBSD Foundation.

Due to the nature of these, we don't actually know who is attempting
to donate, so I'm posting here.

Due to changing laws, our provider (BitPay) had to limit transactions
to $1000/day causing these donations to fail (according to what we
received from BitPay the potential donor would have been told this).

As of a few hours ago, we have managed to get the limit raised to
$1/day - and a note of this
is now reflected at

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html

If you are attempting to donate a sizable amount of BitCoin, please
bear the limit in mind when donating.. Donations of more than $1
in value would need to be made over multiple days.

Sorry for any inconvenience, this is just how these things work.

-Bob

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[Martin Schröder]

2014-08-18 0:22 GMT+02:00 Joel Rees :
> But they own the format, and 3rd party cleanroom implementations still have

No. ISO does this 2007.

Best
   Martin

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[openbsd2012]

| I've seen this before.  It has never helped OpenBSD.  I'll stop short of 
calling
| the OP a troll, but boy, what an amazing distraction.  I wonder who funds
| him.

Yep, if it's such a great idea then why aren't these suggestion makers doing 
it? The answer is that it would be a colossal waste of their time. If they 
really believed in their suggestions then they would step up and really 
volunteer to make it happen. Instead, they try to foist it on the project 
developers.

It's nothing more than wishful thinking at work. As the saying goes, wish in 
one hand, shit in the other, and see which one fills up first.

Anyone who is really serious will just donate money without any expectation of 
"getting something for it", because the smart ones among the user base already 
realize that the OpenBSD software releases are paying it back in spades.

By next year I'll be finished articling, I'll be earning a real paycheque once 
more, and you can expect to start receiving those annual $200 cheques from me 
again, Theo. I'll wager that not one of these suggestion makers has even 
managed half that amount on a recurring basis. Maybe not even one tenth. I'm 
mean, didn't the one guy say he bought a t-shirt once? How generous of him. You 
better adopt every suggestion he makes. I mean, you owe him, right? :eyeroll:

Breeno

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[Theo de Raadt]

> > Well yes, but those are problems with Adobe's dreadful reader,
> > not with the (standardised) format itself.
> 
> Unfortunately, the format itself breeds holes.
> 
> Being a fan of postfix languages, it's been a bit of a bitter pill for me,
> but I've done some of the math. The problem is not just the implentation.
> 
> Still, the larger problems are that Adobe has a near monopoly in this
> segment and is not willing to slow down to let natural competition help
> clean things up, and is not willing to slow down to clean things up
> themselves. Very irresponsible, just like the other big companies.
> 
> But they own the format, and 3rd party cleanroom implementations still have
> to follow their lead in today's monopoly-supporting IP regime.
> 
> > [...]
> 
> It's not that your efforts are unappreciated, but you should recognize that
> the path you are tracing is not new. Nor should you necessarily be too
> discouraged. Just recognize that there is a lot more work to be done, if
> the project is going to take this on. The technical part is the easy part,
> and I think that you do realize that what you accomplished isn't really
> even 5/18ths of the technical part of the job.
> 
> (I speak as a lurker who has seen something like this before.)
> 
> Also,  if you are considering donating the necessary work yourself, you
> might want to talk with Michael Lucas. I think he might be able to help you
> avoid some of the dead-end paths in the solution tree.


I've seen this before.  It has never helped OpenBSD.  I'll stop short
of calling the OP a troll, but boy, what an amazing distraction.  I wonder
who funds him.

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[Joel Rees]

2014/08/17 20:50 "Norman Gray" :
>
> [...]
>
> Well yes, but those are problems with Adobe's dreadful reader,
> not with the (standardised) format itself.

Unfortunately, the format itself breeds holes.

Being a fan of postfix languages, it's been a bit of a bitter pill for me,
but I've done some of the math. The problem is not just the implentation.

Still, the larger problems are that Adobe has a near monopoly in this
segment and is not willing to slow down to let natural competition help
clean things up, and is not willing to slow down to clean things up
themselves. Very irresponsible, just like the other big companies.

But they own the format, and 3rd party cleanroom implementations still have
to follow their lead in today's monopoly-supporting IP regime.

> [...]

It's not that your efforts are unappreciated, but you should recognize that
the path you are tracing is not new. Nor should you necessarily be too
discouraged. Just recognize that there is a lot more work to be done, if
the project is going to take this on. The technical part is the easy part,
and I think that you do realize that what you accomplished isn't really
even 5/18ths of the technical part of the job.

(I speak as a lurker who has seen something like this before.)

Also,  if you are considering donating the necessary work yourself, you
might want to talk with Michael Lucas. I think he might be able to help you
avoid some of the dead-end paths in the solution tree.

Joel Rees

Computer memory is just fancy paper,
CPUs just fancy pens.
All is a stream of text
flowing from the past into the future.

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[Norman Gray]

Theo, hello.

On 2014 Aug 17, at 18:09, Theo de Raadt  wrote:

> Noone is going to bother setting up sales for something that can be
> trivially reproduced.

But that's the odd thing about the Python Reference Manual I linked to [1].  
It's identical to the downloadable version of the same document, and either 
people don't realise this, or else they do but want the paper thing anyway.  
I've no idea what its sales are, but the existence of reviews on that page 
indicates that they're non-zero.

Of course, the python community is both larger than, and different from, the 
OpenBSD one, so this is no more than an existence proof.  However the same 
'they can just download it' argument can also be applied to the distribution 
CDs, and folk are encouraged to buy them, and do, for various reasons.

It's certainly true, though, that there'd be an effort trade-off to calculate.  
All I'm adding is that if that trade-off _were_ deemed to be worth it, then 
generating the PDF, and HTML, is trivial.

All the best,

Norman


[1] http://www.amazon.com/Python-Language-Reference-Manual/dp/1906966141/

-- 
Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[Theo de Raadt]

> I'll spell this out again: It has been claimed that some people would
> buy a printed text who would not buy CDs (this was originally Worik
> Stanton's suggestion, and I think it's plausible).  If such an artefact can
> be produced and distributed trivially easily (I think I have demonstrated
> the first part of that, and that sites like lulu.com support the second),
> then that means more money for the OpenBSD project.

It does not mean more money for the OpenBSD project.

Noone is going to bother setting up sales for something that can be
trivially reproduced.

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[Norman Gray]

Mihai, hello.

On 2014 Aug 17, at 09:50, Mihai Popescu  wrote:

> To OP:

I presume you're addressing me?

> and yet you are asking for more and try to
> suggest crazy things.

No, I'm not asking for more.  I'm offering code, and
a mildly reorganised FAQ source text which would incidentally
make it easier to maintain in future.

> So, you saying that you want a paperback instead of CDs is writting
> out of boring.

No, I'm not saying I want a paperback.

I'll spell this out again: It has been claimed that some people would
buy a printed text who would not buy CDs (this was originally Worik
Stanton's suggestion, and I think it's plausible).  If such an artefact can
be produced and distributed trivially easily (I think I have demonstrated
the first part of that, and that sites like lulu.com support the second),
then that means more money for the OpenBSD project.

> Your little
> "project" must be maintained also,

Thank you for your kind condescension.

> FAQ is a changing information, it
> needs another resources and maintainers.

Indeed, and the easier that task is, the better.

Best wishes,

Norman


-- 
Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[Norman Gray]

Nick, hello.

On 2014 Aug 17, at 11:02, Nick Holland  wrote:

> I used to generate PDF files of the FAQ.  I stopped this a few years
> ago, when I decided that the use of PDF files was not to be encouraged
> in any way, shape or form.  Adobe writes crap code and does what they
> can to push it onto as many computers as they can.  It has become a
> popular place to find zero-day exploits permitting undetected entry into
> corporate computer systems.  And looking at how people use PDF files, it
> just isn't needed.

Well yes, but those are problems with Adobe's dreadful reader, not with the 
(standardised) format itself.

It's for this reason that no-one should use Adobe's reader if they can possibly 
help it.  But there are other PDF implementations.

> You also need to look at the license of the FAQ and website material --
> most of it is released just under standard copyright, so any
> redistribution requires the permission of the copyright holder.

But I'm not planning to distribute anything.  The temporary URL I posted was to 
demo the results of the suggestion I was making.

To be clear, I'm proposing that the XHTML version of the FAQ text would 
potentially be usable as the master version, and used to generate HTML and any 
other formats that were desirable (such as a PDF, or a text version via *roff).

All the best,

Norman


-- 
Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[Nick Holland]

On 08/16/14 14:00, Norman Gray wrote:
...
> At  you will find,
> for your delectation and delight:
> 
>   * A PDF of sections 1--5 of the FAQ;
>   * An HTML version of this;
>   * A tarball containing the source of the scripts which generate these
>   from XML originals.
> 
> The idea of the PDF is that it's something which could potentially
> be sold on dead trees (which might be useful/attractive for the
> reasons above).

I used to generate PDF files of the FAQ.  I stopped this a few years
ago, when I decided that the use of PDF files was not to be encouraged
in any way, shape or form.  Adobe writes crap code and does what they
can to push it onto as many computers as they can.  It has become a
popular place to find zero-day exploits permitting undetected entry into
corporate computer systems.  And looking at how people use PDF files, it
just isn't needed.

(trivial example of the use of a PDF exploit: Phish a department for
e-mail access.  Get a few sets of e-mail creds, log into their webmail.
 Find a PDF someone sent to the entire department (or company!) about an
office event.  Pull it down, weaponize it, and then RESEND the PDF file
via e-mail to the exact same people it was sent to before, with the
subject line, "Updated office event info!".  Who WOULDN'T feel safe
opening this?  It's from a coworker about something you know is legit.
Ta-da, almost every computer in the department is now infected.)

Now, this is in no way an OpenBSD problem, Adobe Flash and PDF code do
not run on OpenBSD (thank goodness!), but I will do nothing to encourage
the use of this format anywhere, as long as Adobe is a major supplier of
readers on major platforms, and as long as their corporate attitude
towards security is, "Wah-wah-wah, everyone's picking on me!"

Anything involving PDF files will NOT have my personal blessing.

You also need to look at the license of the FAQ and website material --
most of it is released just under standard copyright, so any
redistribution requires the permission of the copyright holder.

Nick.

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[Mihai Popescu]

To OP:
I think you are polluting the list for nothing. Renaming threads is
also awkward since you can't follow them.

Let me clarify for you: all that OpenBSD developers can offer is
already out for free. They asked for your (our) donations to keep the
project going on and they did that with no condition, it is just your
free will to donate.
The CD and poster stuff is only the top cherry from the cake. There
are many ways to donate and yet you are asking for more and try to
suggest crazy things. The simple fact is that you need to send money,
and CD are a way to redirect some money to one main developer. This is
it, no big deal. If you want to send 50 euro, it's either donation or
CD buy. It does not matter much what you are getting back for this
money, since all is already there for free, it does matter when it
comes for developers to pay for expenses.

So, you saying that you want a paperback instead of CDs is writting
out of boring. Just send the money and print yourself a copy from the
project's web page. This way both parts will be happy. Your little
"project" must be maintained also, FAQ is a changing information, it
needs another resources and maintainers. Go figure for yourself the
costs. Let the already involved people decide what is best for the
project and then obey their advices if you can afford.

Thanks.

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[Adam Thompson]

On 14-08-16 01:01 PM, Norman Gray wrote:

To do this, I took the HTML versions of the FAQ sections, and
normalised them into regular XHTML (which makes them processable
into other forms).  With that done, it was straightforward to
transform the result into both HTML for presentation, and into LaTeX
for further transformation into PDF.  This depends on the xsltproc
package, and obviously on LaTeX.

[...]

It would be pretty straightforward to generate a .txt FAQ from these
same sources (via *roff).


I find that this work would be useful to me - there are (admittedly 
rare) occasions where I want an offline copy of the documentation.


But... shouldn't the "master" copy be in mdoc(7) format?  ;-)


Now, if anyone actually took that seriously:
I believe work on doclifter(1) and docbook2mdoc(1) is already in 
consideration, perhaps there's an reasonably-automatic way to do the 
conversion?  If not, I certainly don't think it's worth the time to 
change it by hand.


--
-Adam Thompson
 athom...@athompso.net

Re: PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[sven falempin]

On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Norman Gray  wrote:

> Greetings.
>
> Some way up this thread, I said:
>
> On 2014 Aug 14, at 11:21, Norman Gray  wrote:
>
> > On 2014 Aug 14, at 01:10, Worik Stanton  wrote:
> >
> >> Suggestion:  Package the release notes, FAQ and some other documentation
> >> into a PDF and sell that at the same price as the CD, from the same
> >> place.  I'd buy that.  It would be better quality than the (often) crap
> >> O'Reilly sell, and I buy that.
> >
> > This is potentially quite a good idea.
> >
> > The T-shirts and CDs exist because (a) some people find them useful in
> themselves, and (b) some people prefer or find it more convenient to buy a
> physical thing they don't intend to use, as a means of making an indirect
> donation to the project.  This of course is discussed at length in the rest
> of this thread.
> >
> > There's precedent for such a physical book being sellable.  The Python
> Reference Manual [1] is a dead-tree version of the language and library
> description also available for free at [2].  There's clearly some story
> about the various reasons why people buy that, but it's clear that at least
> some do.  I have considered doing so myself -- a paper document is superior
> to an on-screen one in some circumstances -- but in the end found it more
> convenient to print out selected sections of the downloaded PDF.
> >
> > Places like lulu.com will put a PDF on paper for you and sell/ship the
> result.  I've no idea of the economic details of that, or alternatives to
> lulu, but such services do exist.
> >
> > I'm not making any promises here, but given mild encouragement I'd be
> very willing to take a look at how complicated it would be to turn the
> existing text or texts into a readable PDF (I've done this sort of thing
> before, and could probably do it fairly efficiently).
>
> After posting that, I received some ... non-discouragement off-list,
> and that's enough for me.
>
> At  you will find,
> for your delectation and delight:
>
>   * A PDF of sections 1--5 of the FAQ;
>   * An HTML version of this;
>   * A tarball containing the source of the scripts which generate these
>   from XML originals.
>
> The idea of the PDF is that it's something which could potentially
> be sold on dead trees (which might be useful/attractive for the
> reasons above).
>
> To do this, I took the HTML versions of the FAQ sections, and
> normalised them into regular XHTML (which makes them processable
> into other forms).  With that done, it was straightforward to
> transform the result into both HTML for presentation, and into LaTeX
> for further transformation into PDF.  This depends on the xsltproc
> package, and obviously on LaTeX.
>
> The HTML target does things like adding in consistent structuring,
> generating tables of contents, ensuring that internal cross-references
> are consistent, and so on.  The results should be identical in content,
> and pretty similar in appearance, to the online versions.
>
> The normalisation of the contents consisted in large part of
> regularising away various bits of cruft used for layout (for example
>  and  elements (eek!) around , which are
> fiddly to manage and are inevitably inconsistent across the document),
> making "..." and '...' consistent, and a couple of other things
> discussed in the README in the tarball.  The README also contains
> some notes on the lightweight structuring added to the source files.
>
> It would be pretty straightforward to generate a .txt FAQ from these
> same sources (via *roff).
>
> The results here aren't very pretty -- and obviously I've only done
> the first five sections -- but they're respectable and should show
> the idea.
>
> Even if the PDF idea isn't taken up, this is potentially an alternative
> way to generate the HTML files, in contrast to hand-editing
> disconnected .html files.
>
> I like the idea of the 'Good Idea Fairy'!  This one comes with product.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Norman
>
>
> --
> Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
> SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK
>
>
in the glorious third millemium are usb key as cheap as cd printing ?

-- 
-
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\

PDF FAQ [Was: Donations to OpenBSD]

[Norman Gray]

Greetings.

Some way up this thread, I said:

On 2014 Aug 14, at 11:21, Norman Gray  wrote:

> On 2014 Aug 14, at 01:10, Worik Stanton  wrote:
> 
>> Suggestion:  Package the release notes, FAQ and some other documentation
>> into a PDF and sell that at the same price as the CD, from the same
>> place.  I'd buy that.  It would be better quality than the (often) crap
>> O'Reilly sell, and I buy that.
> 
> This is potentially quite a good idea.
> 
> The T-shirts and CDs exist because (a) some people find them useful in 
> themselves, and (b) some people prefer or find it more convenient to buy a 
> physical thing they don't intend to use, as a means of making an indirect 
> donation to the project.  This of course is discussed at length in the rest 
> of this thread.
> 
> There's precedent for such a physical book being sellable.  The Python 
> Reference Manual [1] is a dead-tree version of the language and library 
> description also available for free at [2].  There's clearly some story about 
> the various reasons why people buy that, but it's clear that at least some 
> do.  I have considered doing so myself -- a paper document is superior to an 
> on-screen one in some circumstances -- but in the end found it more 
> convenient to print out selected sections of the downloaded PDF.
> 
> Places like lulu.com will put a PDF on paper for you and sell/ship the 
> result.  I've no idea of the economic details of that, or alternatives to 
> lulu, but such services do exist.
> 
> I'm not making any promises here, but given mild encouragement I'd be very 
> willing to take a look at how complicated it would be to turn the existing 
> text or texts into a readable PDF (I've done this sort of thing before, and 
> could probably do it fairly efficiently).

After posting that, I received some ... non-discouragement off-list,
and that's enough for me.

At  you will find,
for your delectation and delight:

  * A PDF of sections 1--5 of the FAQ;
  * An HTML version of this;
  * A tarball containing the source of the scripts which generate these
  from XML originals.

The idea of the PDF is that it's something which could potentially
be sold on dead trees (which might be useful/attractive for the
reasons above).

To do this, I took the HTML versions of the FAQ sections, and
normalised them into regular XHTML (which makes them processable
into other forms).  With that done, it was straightforward to
transform the result into both HTML for presentation, and into LaTeX
for further transformation into PDF.  This depends on the xsltproc
package, and obviously on LaTeX.

The HTML target does things like adding in consistent structuring,
generating tables of contents, ensuring that internal cross-references
are consistent, and so on.  The results should be identical in content,
and pretty similar in appearance, to the online versions.

The normalisation of the contents consisted in large part of
regularising away various bits of cruft used for layout (for example
 and  elements (eek!) around , which are
fiddly to manage and are inevitably inconsistent across the document),
making "..." and '...' consistent, and a couple of other things
discussed in the README in the tarball.  The README also contains
some notes on the lightweight structuring added to the source files.

It would be pretty straightforward to generate a .txt FAQ from these
same sources (via *roff).

The results here aren't very pretty -- and obviously I've only done
the first five sections -- but they're respectable and should show
the idea.

Even if the PDF idea isn't taken up, this is potentially an alternative
way to generate the HTML files, in contrast to hand-editing
disconnected .html files.

I like the idea of the 'Good Idea Fairy'!  This one comes with product.

Best wishes,

Norman


-- 
Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[James Shupe]

Why not just set up a recurring Paypal donation? Even $20/mo should
help, if enough people do it.

-James Shupe

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Ed Ahlsen-Girard]

This is from the Electricity thread but seems on point:

> Dear Misc,
> 
> In re electricity, please do one of the following:
> 
> 1.Send money.
> 2.Convince OTHER PEOPLE to send money.

This next bit is important, and is being overlooked again:

> 3.Stop summoning the Good Idea Fairy to the developers. I have
> seen the suggestions, and it's not that none of them could
> possibly work. It's that all of them *would have to be worked*, and
> whichever developers are working them will not be employed in their
> best and highest use.
> 
> Dear Developers,
> 
> Thanks.

I bought a CD yesterday. Go ye and do the same.

-- 

Edward Ahlsen-Girard
Ft Walton Beach, FL

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[sven falempin]

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 8:08 AM, Eric Furman 
wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014, at 02:02 AM, Bernte wrote:
> > On 14/08/14 16:14, Nicolai wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 07:16:41AM +0100, Bernte wrote:
> > >> Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to
> the
> > >> OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there
> (from
> > >> the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the
> highest
> > >> degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
> > >> gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
> > >
> > > The OpenBSD Foundation.
> > >
> > > http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
> > >
> > > Theo has mentioned it several times this year as being the preferred
> > > route.  It's as simple as possible.
> > >
> > > Nicolai
> >
> > Thanks Nicolai for the answer. A few things have been clarified
> > off-list. I now understand the implications of the different routes to
> > OpenBSD.
> >
> > Bernd
> >
>
> The best way to help OpenBSD is to help Theo de Raadt.
> The best way to do that is to buy CD's.
> Buy a CD and request no CD delivery.
> Buy many CD's with this intent.
> Buy a CD and have it shipped to Theo.
> (not ideal but an option)
> Theo does not like to admit it, understandably, but the main
> funding of Theo de Raadt's expenses is paid for by CD sales.
> If you want OpenBSD to continue to exist *BUY* *CD's*.
> If you want the most secure binaries and to help the
> OpenBSD project BUY CD's!
>
> SWIFT and the Foundation fund things like Hackathons.
> (I welcome corrections if I am am wrong)
> Those things are great.
> CD sales support Theo de Raadt directly.
> ELECTRICITY
> Property taxes
> Mortgage
> Food
> Beer
>

can One donate Beer to openBSD fondation ?


> All sorts of other ESSENTIAL expenses.
> We do not want Theo to have to get a commercial job.
> That would prevent him from being able to direct the
> OpenBSD project.
> If that happened then OpenBSD would cease to exist.
> BUY CD's
>
> It's really not that complicated.
>
> P.S. Theo de Raadt is an asshole. :)
> P.P.S. but if you care about OpenBSD that shit is irrelevant. ;)
>
>


-- 
-
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Eric Furman]

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014, at 02:02 AM, Bernte wrote:
> On 14/08/14 16:14, Nicolai wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 07:16:41AM +0100, Bernte wrote:
> >> Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
> >> OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
> >> the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
> >> degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
> >> gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
> > 
> > The OpenBSD Foundation.
> > 
> > http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
> > 
> > Theo has mentioned it several times this year as being the preferred
> > route.  It's as simple as possible.
> > 
> > Nicolai
> 
> Thanks Nicolai for the answer. A few things have been clarified
> off-list. I now understand the implications of the different routes to
> OpenBSD.
> 
> Bernd
> 

The best way to help OpenBSD is to help Theo de Raadt.
The best way to do that is to buy CD's.
Buy a CD and request no CD delivery.
Buy many CD's with this intent.
Buy a CD and have it shipped to Theo.
(not ideal but an option)
Theo does not like to admit it, understandably, but the main
funding of Theo de Raadt's expenses is paid for by CD sales.
If you want OpenBSD to continue to exist *BUY* *CD's*.
If you want the most secure binaries and to help the
OpenBSD project BUY CD's!

SWIFT and the Foundation fund things like Hackathons.
(I welcome corrections if I am am wrong)
Those things are great.
CD sales support Theo de Raadt directly.
ELECTRICITY
Property taxes
Mortgage
Food
Beer
All sorts of other ESSENTIAL expenses.
We do not want Theo to have to get a commercial job.
That would prevent him from being able to direct the
OpenBSD project.
If that happened then OpenBSD would cease to exist.
BUY CD's

It's really not that complicated.

P.S. Theo de Raadt is an asshole. :)
P.P.S. but if you care about OpenBSD that shit is irrelevant. ;)

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Bernte]

On 14/08/14 16:14, Nicolai wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 07:16:41AM +0100, Bernte wrote:
>> Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
>> OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
>> the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
>> degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
>> gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
> 
> The OpenBSD Foundation.
> 
> http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
> 
> Theo has mentioned it several times this year as being the preferred
> route.  It's as simple as possible.
> 
> Nicolai

Thanks Nicolai for the answer. A few things have been clarified
off-list. I now understand the implications of the different routes to
OpenBSD.

Bernd

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Andy Lemin]

We know... ;)

Sent from my iPhone

> On 14 Aug 2014, at 16:14, Nicolai  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 07:16:41AM +0100, Bernte wrote:
>> Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
>> OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
>> the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
>> degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
>> gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
> 
> The OpenBSD Foundation.
> 
> http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
> 
> Theo has mentioned it several times this year as being the preferred
> route.  It's as simple as possible.
> 
> Nicolai

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Andy Lemin]

Hahaha, lol!! Yes peter :)

Sent from my iPhone

> On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:17, Peter Hessler  wrote:
> 
> options:
> 
> 1) cash in envelope, put into mail
> 2) bank cheque in envelope, put in mail
> 3) suck it up, and stop caring about the middle man's cut
> 4) bank transfers (also: see #3)
> 5) fly to canada with a suitcase of money
> 6) bank transfers to the EUROPEAN bank
> 7) OpenBSD Foundatation
> 
> 
> 
> On 2014 Aug 14 (Thu) at 10:02:42 +0100 (+0100), Andy wrote:
> :We've found this strangely difficult to do also.. Just want to donate, don't
> :want stuff in return, don't want middle men taking a cut..
> :
> :
> :On 14/08/14 09:59, Janne Johansson wrote:
> :>Talk to www.openbsdeurope.com, which happens to be in the UK.
> :>I'm sure they can arrange for donations in a simple-for-you way even if you
> :>don't need a product back.
> :>
> :>
> :>
> :>2014-08-14 8:16 GMT+02:00 Bernte :
> :>
> :>>On 14/08/14 01:10, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> :>>>>How does it compare for using the SWIFT method outlined on the website?
> :>>>The SWIFT donations go to the Project.  That is spent on things which
> :>>>the Foundation doesn't pay for.
> :>>Gee - CDs, T-Shirts, Project, Foundation - all this discussion starts to
> :>>confuse me.
> :>>
> :>>Theo, I am planning to donate, but I am loosing my understanding of the
> :>>optimal way.
> :>>
> :>>Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
> :>>OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
> :>>the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
> :>>degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
> :>>gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
> :>>
> :>>Thanks,
> :>>Bernd
> :
> 
> -- 
> Democracy is good.  I say this because other systems are worse.
>-- Jawaharlal Nehru

Re: [Bulk] Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Martin Schröder]

2014-08-14 19:13 GMT+02:00 Theo de Raadt :
> Which then get shared, and reproduced by any asshole company on the
> net, much like ixsoft.de has been doing for years?

?
ixsoft.de is still listed as reseller on http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html

Did I miss something?

Best
   Martin

Re: [Bulk] Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Alan McKay]

On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 4:40 PM, Daniel Villarreal
 wrote:
> It means "Producer," or "maker"

also "manufacturer" ...


-- 
"Don't eat anything you've ever seen advertised on TV"
 - Michael Pollan, author of "In Defense of Food"

Re: [Bulk] Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Daniel Villarreal]

It means "Producer," or "maker"

If you do a search, you will see that they sell a lot of OpenBSD
stuffare they or are they not selling official merchandise? I'd like to
hear what German OpenBSD users think of the situation. If they're too busy,
let me know.

Daniel Villarreal


On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Mihai Popescu  wrote:

> >> Another idea I guess with next to no work- high res copies of the
> >> stickers, paid for download at CD price.
>
> > Which then get shared, and reproduced by any asshole company on the
> > net, much like ixsoft.de has been doing for years?
>
> I did a quick check out of curiosity and there they are, OpenBSD
> posters for sale.
>
> The interesting fact is that at Hersteller section (Manufacturer,
> tran.) is written OpenBSD.org!
>
> What does it mean?

Re: [Bulk] Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Mihai Popescu]

>> Another idea I guess with next to no work- high res copies of the
>> stickers, paid for download at CD price.

> Which then get shared, and reproduced by any asshole company on the
> net, much like ixsoft.de has been doing for years?

I did a quick check out of curiosity and there they are, OpenBSD
posters for sale.

The interesting fact is that at Hersteller section (Manufacturer,
tran.) is written OpenBSD.org!

What does it mean?

Re: [Bulk] Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Theo de Raadt]

> Another idea I guess with next to no work- high res copies of the
> stickers, paid for download at CD price.

Which then get shared, and reproduced by any asshole company on the
net, much like ixsoft.de has been doing for years?

> To fund the project yes but CD's are THE? route to fund Theo's ongoing
> full-time dedication.

Unfortunately it is that, or gifts to me.  Which is not income.  I still
need an income to remain legit in the eyes of the tax man.

> Cheque - more work than online so less likely?
> cash - risk, more work than online so less likely, knowing he actually
> got it?

Or dera...@openbsd.org paypal, even.  That's more recent, though.

> I guess Theo could publish his sort code and account number, are gifts
> tax free in Canada?

gifts are tax free.

Re: [Bulk] Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Kevin Chadwick]

previously on this list Nicolai contributed:

> The OpenBSD Foundation.
> 
> http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
> 
> Theo has mentioned it several times this year as being the preferred
> route.  It's as simple as possible.

Another idea I guess with next to no work- high res copies of the
stickers, paid for download at CD price.

To fund the project yes but CD's are THE? route to fund Theo's ongoing
full-time dedication.

Cheque - more work than online so less likely?
cash - risk, more work than online so less likely, knowing he actually
got it?

I guess Theo could publish his sort code and account number, are gifts
tax free in Canada?

-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Nicolai]

On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 07:16:41AM +0100, Bernte wrote:
> Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
> OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
> the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
> degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
> gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?

The OpenBSD Foundation.

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html

Theo has mentioned it several times this year as being the preferred
route.  It's as simple as possible.

Nicolai

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Norman Gray]

Greetings.

On 2014 Aug 14, at 01:10, Worik Stanton  wrote:

> Suggestion:  Package the release notes, FAQ and some other documentation
> into a PDF and sell that at the same price as the CD, from the same
> place.  I'd buy that.  It would be better quality than the (often) crap
> O'Reilly sell, and I buy that.

This is potentially quite a good idea.

The T-shirts and CDs exist because (a) some people find them useful in 
themselves, and (b) some people prefer or find it more convenient to buy a 
physical thing they don't intend to use, as a means of making an indirect 
donation to the project.  This of course is discussed at length in the rest of 
this thread.

There's precedent for such a physical book being sellable.  The Python 
Reference Manual [1] is a dead-tree version of the language and library 
description also available for free at [2].  There's clearly some story about 
the various reasons why people buy that, but it's clear that at least some do.  
I have considered doing so myself -- a paper document is superior to an 
on-screen one in some circumstances -- but in the end found it more convenient 
to print out selected sections of the downloaded PDF.

Places like lulu.com will put a PDF on paper for you and sell/ship the result.  
I've no idea of the economic details of that, or alternatives to lulu, but such 
services do exist.

I'm not making any promises here, but given mild encouragement I'd be very 
willing to take a look at how complicated it would be to turn the existing text 
or texts into a readable PDF (I've done this sort of thing before, and could 
probably do it fairly efficiently).

However it's not obvious to me where the source of the FAQ is.  The HTML is at 
[3] and there's a plain-text version at [4], but I presume these are generated 
from some other common source.  The latter says that "The FAQ is available in 
text form in the pub/OpenBSD/doc directory from many FTP mirrors", but I wasn't 
able to turn that into an actual URL, or a location on 
.

All the best,

Norman


[1] http://www.amazon.com/Python-Language-Reference-Manual/dp/1906966141/
[2] https://docs.python.org/3/download.html
[3] http://www.openbsd.org/faq/index.html
[4] http://www.openbsd.org/faq/obsd-faq.txt


-- 
Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Peter Hessler]

options:

1) cash in envelope, put into mail
2) bank cheque in envelope, put in mail
3) suck it up, and stop caring about the middle man's cut
4) bank transfers (also: see #3)
5) fly to canada with a suitcase of money
6) bank transfers to the EUROPEAN bank
7) OpenBSD Foundatation



On 2014 Aug 14 (Thu) at 10:02:42 +0100 (+0100), Andy wrote:
:We've found this strangely difficult to do also.. Just want to donate, don't
:want stuff in return, don't want middle men taking a cut..
:
:
:On 14/08/14 09:59, Janne Johansson wrote:
:>Talk to www.openbsdeurope.com, which happens to be in the UK.
:>I'm sure they can arrange for donations in a simple-for-you way even if you
:>don't need a product back.
:>
:>
:>
:>2014-08-14 8:16 GMT+02:00 Bernte :
:>
:>>On 14/08/14 01:10, Theo de Raadt wrote:
:>>>>How does it compare for using the SWIFT method outlined on the website?
:>>>The SWIFT donations go to the Project.  That is spent on things which
:>>>the Foundation doesn't pay for.
:>>Gee - CDs, T-Shirts, Project, Foundation - all this discussion starts to
:>>confuse me.
:>>
:>>Theo, I am planning to donate, but I am loosing my understanding of the
:>>optimal way.
:>>
:>>Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
:>>OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
:>>the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
:>>degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
:>>gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
:>>
:>>Thanks,
:>>Bernd
:

-- 
Democracy is good.  I say this because other systems are worse.
-- Jawaharlal Nehru

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Andy]

We've found this strangely difficult to do also.. Just want to donate, 
don't want stuff in return, don't want middle men taking a cut..



On 14/08/14 09:59, Janne Johansson wrote:

Talk to www.openbsdeurope.com, which happens to be in the UK.
I'm sure they can arrange for donations in a simple-for-you way even if you
don't need a product back.



2014-08-14 8:16 GMT+02:00 Bernte :


On 14/08/14 01:10, Theo de Raadt wrote:

How does it compare for using the SWIFT method outlined on the website?

The SWIFT donations go to the Project.  That is spent on things which
the Foundation doesn't pay for.

Gee - CDs, T-Shirts, Project, Foundation - all this discussion starts to
confuse me.

Theo, I am planning to donate, but I am loosing my understanding of the
optimal way.

Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?

Thanks,
Bernd

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Janne Johansson]

Talk to www.openbsdeurope.com, which happens to be in the UK.
I'm sure they can arrange for donations in a simple-for-you way even if you
don't need a product back.



2014-08-14 8:16 GMT+02:00 Bernte :

> On 14/08/14 01:10, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> >> How does it compare for using the SWIFT method outlined on the website?
> >
> > The SWIFT donations go to the Project.  That is spent on things which
> > the Foundation doesn't pay for.
>
> Gee - CDs, T-Shirts, Project, Foundation - all this discussion starts to
> confuse me.
>
> Theo, I am planning to donate, but I am loosing my understanding of the
> optimal way.
>
> Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
> OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
> the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
> degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
> gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?
>
> Thanks,
> Bernd
>
>


-- 
May the most significant bit of your life be positive.

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Bernte]

On 14/08/14 01:10, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>> How does it compare for using the SWIFT method outlined on the website?
> 
> The SWIFT donations go to the Project.  That is spent on things which
> the Foundation doesn't pay for.

Gee - CDs, T-Shirts, Project, Foundation - all this discussion starts to
confuse me.

Theo, I am planning to donate, but I am loosing my understanding of the
optimal way.

Could you please just clarify: I have money and I want that to go to the
OpenBSD project. I would like as much as possible to make it there (from
the UK in my case), I would like to give the OpenBSD people the highest
degree of freedom of what to do with it, and don't need any physical
gadgets to go with it. What is the optimal way to achieve this?

Thanks,
Bernd

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Dag Richards]

Seems pretty easy to make donations.
Send money. Don't want a CD? OK, Send money.

The documentation is already provided, the FAQ is an excellent codicil 
to the man pages.  No need for a PDF really.

There is a clear need for money.

Demonstrate your willingness and interest to contribute by ... 
contributing.


The free suggestions are not as useful as money.
Send some money, then sit back enjoy the software and be generally quiet.

Every now and again we get to watch Theo go off on someone, its fun even 
though I kinda worry about him bursting a vein at us.



Theo de Raadt wrote:

Suggestion:  Package the release notes, FAQ and some other documentation
into a PDF and sell that at the same price as the CD, from the same
place.  I'd buy that.  It would be better quality than the (often) crap
O'Reilly sell, and I buy that.


We should do more...  Then you'll give us more

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Dan Farrell]

Then buy the damn CD and have it shipped to Theo.


On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Worik Stanton 
wrote:

> I changed the subject line
>
> On 14/08/14 10:52, Eric Furman wrote:
> > Fine, buy a T-shirt, but realize that only a small fraction of the cost
> > actually goes to OpenBSD. When you buy a CD the vast majority
> > of the cost goes to OpenBSD. Who cares whether you need the
> > CD or not. Buy if for the cool stickers. Throw the CD in the trash
> > for all I and the OpenBSD developers care.
>
> Respectfully I find that a bit offensive.  Ask me for a donation if you
> want.  But do not expect me to by an object to be manufactured, shipped
> 1/3 of the way around the globe and then I'll through it in the trash.
> Not cool at all.
>
> OpenBSD is, it seems, very cool and worth supporting.  I am
> investigating using the mechanism detailed in
> http://www.openbsd.org/bank-donation.html...
>
> Looking at https://https.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/order there seems to be no
> difference in CDs and T'Shirts in so far as where the money goes.  I do
> understand from conversations I have had that there is a difference.
>
> Lastly: IMO It is time to change.  CDs are no longer useful.  I have
> OpenBSD on a VPS so stickers are a waste of time too.  I would like to
> donate some money, but it is not easy.  I would like to know for sure
> that the money goes to the project.  For expenses or to developers, who
> spend so much time on this, to spend on whatever they want (beer, fish,
> little rubber balls...) But I will not buy things I cannot use.
>
> Worik
>
>
>
> --
> Why is the legal status of chardonnay different to that of cannabis?
>worik.stan...@gmail.com 021-1680650, (03) 4821804
>   Aotearoa (New Zealand)
>
> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature
> which had a name of signature.asc]

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[h410g3n]

I just donated money to pay for the developer's time in responding to
this useless thread. =P

Theo de Raadt:
>> Suggestion:  Package the release notes, FAQ and some other documentation
>> into a PDF and sell that at the same price as the CD, from the same
>> place.  I'd buy that.  It would be better quality than the (often) crap
>> O'Reilly sell, and I buy that.
> 
> We should do more...  Then you'll give us more

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[patrick keshishian]

On 8/13/14, Worik Stanton  wrote:
> On 14/08/14 11:45, patrick keshishian wrote:
>> You can do what I do. I purchase the CDs but request
>> the vendor not to send me the actual, physical CDs. That's
>> my preferred donation method.
>
> Cool.  Where does the money all go in that case?  Definitely the most
> simple option so far.

I believe it goes to the project, no different than if I had received
the CDs.

> How does it compare for using the SWIFT method outlined on the website?

I'm not familiar that method, therefore, I can't comment.

Best,
--patrick


> Worik
> --
> Why is the legal status of chardonnay different to that of cannabis?
>worik.stan...@gmail.com 021-1680650, (03) 4821804
>   Aotearoa (New Zealand)

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Theo de Raadt]

> Suggestion:  Package the release notes, FAQ and some other documentation
> into a PDF and sell that at the same price as the CD, from the same
> place.  I'd buy that.  It would be better quality than the (often) crap
> O'Reilly sell, and I buy that.

We should do more...  Then you'll give us more

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Worik Stanton]

On 14/08/14 11:55, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> Well OBVIOUSLY CDs accumulate more revenue than T-shirts, so recently
> we've not made any T-shirts because it isn't worth it, the setup costs
> and overheads are higher than the number sold.  If you guys don't buy
> enough of them, then we don't do the setup.
>
> Other than that, there is no difference to you, expect that I would guess
> you don't buy any, and you don't fund the Project or the Foundation,
> and all of this is idle chatter.

Nope.

I have a Blow Fish T'shirt from years gone by.  I bought a CD back then
too.  It was useful then.

I fully get the set-up costs of T'shirts.  That is a shame but if it is
too much work I can go naked.

Definitely not idle chatter.  I am interested in getting beer into your
fridge or biscuits into your dog or whatever.

Absolutely not idle chatter!

Suggestion:  Package the release notes, FAQ and some other documentation
into a PDF and sell that at the same price as the CD, from the same
place.  I'd buy that.  It would be better quality than the (often) crap
O'Reilly sell, and I buy that.

Not idle chatter.  Finding efficient ways to get you money given the date.

W

--
Why is the legal status of chardonnay different to that of cannabis?
   worik.stan...@gmail.com 021-1680650, (03) 4821804
  Aotearoa (New Zealand)

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had 
a name of signature.asc]

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Theo de Raadt]

> On 14/08/14 11:45, patrick keshishian wrote:
> > You can do what I do. I purchase the CDs but request
> > the vendor not to send me the actual, physical CDs. That's
> > my preferred donation method.
> 
> Cool.  Where does the money all go in that case?  Definitely the most
> simple option so far.

A good portion of the CD sales pays me a salary, as I do the release
engineering throughout the year.  Obviously there are overheads in
doing a production & sales & shipping operation, so the word portion
is correct.

As to what the salary pays, well basically it means 4.5 months of
making sure the development process doesn't take too many risks and go
off the rails, and 1.5 months of producing the release.  A release
which is ready for the internet, but also ready to go onto the CDs --
which even today act as a significant "control" to make sure we don't
do bat shit crazy stuff like bloat the code.

Then, repeat; 36 or so times in a row so far.

Anyone want to volunteer to take over the release process?


During that entire process, I coordinate and participate in the
security ideas our project is famous for.

> How does it compare for using the SWIFT method outlined on the website?

The SWIFT donations go to the Project.  That is spent on things which
the Foundation doesn't pay for.

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Worik Stanton]

On 14/08/14 11:45, patrick keshishian wrote:
> You can do what I do. I purchase the CDs but request
> the vendor not to send me the actual, physical CDs. That's
> my preferred donation method.

Cool.  Where does the money all go in that case?  Definitely the most
simple option so far.

How does it compare for using the SWIFT method outlined on the website?

Worik
--
Why is the legal status of chardonnay different to that of cannabis?
   worik.stan...@gmail.com 021-1680650, (03) 4821804
  Aotearoa (New Zealand)

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had 
a name of signature.asc]

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[Theo de Raadt]

>Respectfully I find that a bit offensive.  Ask me for a donation if you
>want.  But do not expect me to by an object to be manufactured, shipped
>1/3 of the way around the globe and then I'll through it in the trash.
>Not cool at all.

Then find another way to ensure that OpenBSD persists in the future.

Come on, the web pages regarding donations are more than clear about
how things work.  Refer to http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html.
There is a Foundation following government imposed rules.  There is a
Project, which is not a corporation, so that the Foundation can help
it.  There is a clear separation.  Then there is a guy in Calgary who
has no other job because herding roughly 100 people into making a
high-quality release every 6 month (on the clock) doesn't allow time
for another job.

It sounds like you can put sentences together to form paragraphs, so I
bet you and others can figure this out.

If you want this almost 20 year old thing to be sustained further,
find a way of your own that you think will sustain it.  Otherwise it
sounds like you are digging for excuses.

The Foundation is doing a great job these days covering most of the
costs of the project (see their web pages for a list of what they have
funded over the last 3 years).  But the Foundation does not cover my
time.  And I will not spend my time begging.  Nor would most of you.

>OpenBSD is, it seems, very cool and worth supporting.  I am
>investigating using the mechanism detailed in
>http://www.openbsd.org/bank-donation.html...

That is a mechanism that funds the Project directly.  I dig into this
to cover expenses for the Project that the Foundation does not cover,
in particular when they occur in Europe (obviously).  Does anyone find
fault with this?

>Looking at https://https.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/order there seems to be no
>difference in CDs and T'Shirts in so far as where the money goes.  I do
>understand from conversations I have had that there is a difference.

Well OBVIOUSLY CDs accumulate more revenue than T-shirts, so recently
we've not made any T-shirts because it isn't worth it, the setup costs
and overheads are higher than the number sold.  If you guys don't buy
enough of them, then we don't do the setup.

Other than that, there is no difference to you, expect that I would guess
you don't buy any, and you don't fund the Project or the Foundation,
and all of this is idle chatter.

>Lastly: IMO It is time to change.  CDs are no longer useful.  I have
>OpenBSD on a VPS so stickers are a waste of time too.

Thanks for the advice.  Does your advice change anything?  NO!  It
changes NOTHING.  That is the kind of advice that comes off close to
telling us to give up and die.

>I would like to donate some money, but it is not easy.

Not easy?  That statement is totally false.  You found the web page.
And the Foundation takes paypal, even off a credit card.  Not easy?

>I would like to know for sure >that the money goes to the project.
>For expenses or to developers, who spend so much time on this, to
>spend on whatever they want (beer, fish, little rubber balls...) But
>I will not buy things I cannot use.

You use software we've produced for almost 20 years, without cost,
then you think you can saunter in here and demand greater transparancy?

Why don't you show your bank accounts...

Re: Donations to OpenBSD

[patrick keshishian]

On 8/13/14, Worik Stanton  wrote:
> I changed the subject line
>
> On 14/08/14 10:52, Eric Furman wrote:
>> Fine, buy a T-shirt, but realize that only a small fraction of the cost
>> actually goes to OpenBSD. When you buy a CD the vast majority
>> of the cost goes to OpenBSD. Who cares whether you need the
>> CD or not. Buy if for the cool stickers. Throw the CD in the trash
>> for all I and the OpenBSD developers care.
>
> Respectfully I find that a bit offensive.  Ask me for a donation if you
> want.  But do not expect me to by an object to be manufactured, shipped
> 1/3 of the way around the globe and then I'll through it in the trash.
> Not cool at all.

You can do what I do. I purchase the CDs but request
the vendor not to send me the actual, physical CDs. That's
my preferred donation method.

Cheers,
--patrick


> OpenBSD is, it seems, very cool and worth supporting.  I am
> investigating using the mechanism detailed in
> http://www.openbsd.org/bank-donation.html...
>
> Looking at https://https.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/order there seems to be no
> difference in CDs and T'Shirts in so far as where the money goes.  I do
> understand from conversations I have had that there is a difference.
>
> Lastly: IMO It is time to change.  CDs are no longer useful.  I have
> OpenBSD on a VPS so stickers are a waste of time too.  I would like to
> donate some money, but it is not easy.  I would like to know for sure
> that the money goes to the project.  For expenses or to developers, who
> spend so much time on this, to spend on whatever they want (beer, fish,
> little rubber balls...) But I will not buy things I cannot use.
>
> Worik
>
>
>
> --
> Why is the legal status of chardonnay different to that of cannabis?
>worik.stan...@gmail.com 021-1680650, (03) 4821804
>   Aotearoa (New Zealand)
>
> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which
> had a name of signature.asc]

Donations to OpenBSD

[Worik Stanton]

I changed the subject line

On 14/08/14 10:52, Eric Furman wrote:
> Fine, buy a T-shirt, but realize that only a small fraction of the cost
> actually goes to OpenBSD. When you buy a CD the vast majority
> of the cost goes to OpenBSD. Who cares whether you need the
> CD or not. Buy if for the cool stickers. Throw the CD in the trash
> for all I and the OpenBSD developers care.

Respectfully I find that a bit offensive.  Ask me for a donation if you
want.  But do not expect me to by an object to be manufactured, shipped
1/3 of the way around the globe and then I'll through it in the trash.
Not cool at all.

OpenBSD is, it seems, very cool and worth supporting.  I am
investigating using the mechanism detailed in
http://www.openbsd.org/bank-donation.html...

Looking at https://https.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/order there seems to be no
difference in CDs and T'Shirts in so far as where the money goes.  I do
understand from conversations I have had that there is a difference.

Lastly: IMO It is time to change.  CDs are no longer useful.  I have
OpenBSD on a VPS so stickers are a waste of time too.  I would like to
donate some money, but it is not easy.  I would like to know for sure
that the money goes to the project.  For expenses or to developers, who
spend so much time on this, to spend on whatever they want (beer, fish,
little rubber balls...) But I will not buy things I cannot use.

Worik



--
Why is the legal status of chardonnay different to that of cannabis?
   worik.stan...@gmail.com 021-1680650, (03) 4821804
  Aotearoa (New Zealand)

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had 
a name of signature.asc]

The OpenBSD Foundation now accepts BitCoin donations...

[Bob Beck]

I'm happy to announce the OpenBSD foundation can now accept donations
to assist in funding project activities in BTC.

We are using BitPay.com to host our BitCoin donations, which are converted
to CAD for use by the project.

If you have been interested in making donations in BitCoin, please visit
http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html, and visit the BitCoin
donation link at the bottom of the page.


Thanks,

-Bob

US Paypal Donations Appears Broken

[Jeffrey Walton]

It appears the US donations area is broken.

Following PayPal from http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html, I am
taken to http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html.

>From http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html, I select "US
Donations" and then taken to PayPal.

PayPal's site takes me to Canada's landing page. When I switch
countries to US, the US states are not populated so I can't select my
state from the dropdown.

When I attempt to add my state to my city (i.e., Pasadena, MD), the
form fails validation due to lack of a province.

Donations AMD smp nodes

[Matt Bettinger]

Hi,

Emailed dev but think the mail was stripped because of attachments.
We have some racks of  appro AMD blade servers that have been
decommissioned and are set to be disposed of.  I got ok to donate some
or all.These were used in energy HPC environment for seismic data
processing.  Email offlist if interested.

Mb

Re: Donations

[Дмитрий Царьков]

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Ted Unangst  wrote:
> Err, that's supposed to be essential liberty and temporary security.
>
> Any society that *doesn't* give up at least a little liberty is anarchy and
> Franklin was not, to my knowledge, an anarchist.

It seems that You consider killing people on the street to be a part
of one's liberty that he trades for public order. A nice way to put to
preason everyone because it is a trade off for public, social or
whatever security. And to look even more authoritative, You may apply
a label "anarchist" to everyone who isn't going to march to prison on
his own.

-- 
Dmitrij D. Czarkoff

Re: Donations

[Дмитрий Царьков]

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 11:52 PM, Ted Unangst  wrote:
> Does publicly accusing Paypal of defamation before a trial finds
> Paypal guilty count as defamation?

It works for crimes with certain punishment margins. Accusing PayPal
of killing peaple, spying or frauding may be brought to court.
Accusing PayPal of stealing food from market, not dealing with due
process and etc - doesn't.

By the way, that may give You an image of importancy of due process in
modern legal systems - just between stealing a hamburger and stealing
a TV.

-- 
Dmitrij D. Czarkoff

Re: Donations

[Johan Helsingius]

> This is my source:
> 

That states "This quotation is at least partly spurious" :)

Julf

Re: Donations

[Jasper Valentijn]

2010/12/12 Johan Helsingius :
> Jasper,
>
>> Imho this Thomas Jefferson quote is better suited for the subject. ;-)
>
> http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp
>

This is my source:


--
We spend the first twelve months of our children's lives teaching
them to walk and talk and the next twelve telling them to sit down and
shut up.

Re: Donations

[Johan Helsingius]

Jasper,

> Imho this Thomas Jefferson quote is better suited for the subject. ;-)

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp

Julf

Re: Donations

[Jasper Valentijn]

2010/12/10 Leonardo Rodrigues :
> To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin (an american! diplomat!):
>
> "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
> security will deserve neither and lose both."

Imho this Thomas Jefferson quote is better suited for the subject. ;-)

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue
of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks
and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people
of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent
their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more
dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power
should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it
properly belongs."


--
We spend the first twelve months of our children's lives teaching
them to walk and talk and the next twelve telling them to sit down and
shut up.

Re: Donations

[Martin Schröder]

2010/12/10 Stuart VanZee :
> I would have to agree that the people of the United States have lost
> some of their essential libertys.  The problem has been in defining what
> exactly ARE the essential libertys and then getting our congress and our
> president to keep their mitts off of them.  Still, I would argue that
> even now there are few places in the world where the people can enjoy
> liberty as freely as in the United States.


- the citizens of Baghdad and Teheran can vote their representatives;
  the citizens of Washington, DC can not.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.#Federal_representation_and_ta
xation
- every us american citizen can be spied on or put away indefinitely
  without a court order just on the whim of the us president
- every us citizen is free to be unable to pay for the most basic
  medical services


Seems to be a very liberal und justified system indeed. And please
don't tell the rest of the world what democracy is: Why did GWB become
president?

Best
   Martin

PS: Bonus: The united nations general assembly routinely appeals to
all states to follow international law. Two states have always
voted against that petition: Israel and the USA.
PPS: There is a consensus over the essential liberties:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

Re: Donations

[Stuart VanZee]

> Err, that's supposed to be essential liberty and temporary security.
>
> Any society that *doesn't* give up at least a little liberty
> is anarchy and
> Franklin was not, to my knowledge, an anarchist.
>
> On Dec 10, 2010, at 8:19 AM, Leonardo Rodrigues
> 
> wrote:
>
> > To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin (an american! diplomat!):
> >
> > "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
> > security will deserve neither and lose both."
>
>

I would have to agree that the people of the United States have lost
some of their essential libertys.  The problem has been in defining what
exactly ARE the essential libertys and then getting our congress and our
president to keep their mitts off of them.  Still, I would argue that
even now there are few places in the world where the people can enjoy
liberty as freely as in the United States.

Additionally, for purposes of this thread, the Ben Franklin quote is a
complete straw-man.  Ben Franklin was talking about giving up of essential
liberty by allowing the government to take it away in exchange for some
promised security.  The origin of this thread has noting to do with a
government action and everything to do with an action by a private company
against another private company.

I suspect that more often than not when that particular Ben Franklin quote
comes out it is in an attempt by the quoter to feel superior to those he
is quoting to.  If that was the case, it was an epic fail in both not looking
up the quote to get the text right and not considering that the quote doesn't
fit the situation.

s

Re: Donations

[Ted Unangst]

Err, that's supposed to be essential liberty and temporary security.

Any society that *doesn't* give up at least a little liberty is anarchy and
Franklin was not, to my knowledge, an anarchist.

On Dec 10, 2010, at 8:19 AM, Leonardo Rodrigues 
wrote:

> To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin (an american! diplomat!):
>
> "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
> security will deserve neither and lose both."

Re: Donations

[Leonardo Rodrigues]

To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin (an american! diplomat!):

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both."

Re: Donations

[Ted Unangst]

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff  wrote:
> Untill one is found guilty by court, any public occusations against him are
> considered defamation (criminal activity on it's own).
>
> So, according to legal regulations PayPal's activity towards Wikileaks account
> should be brought to court as a defamation case.

Does publicly accusing Paypal of defamation before a trial finds
Paypal guilty count as defamation?

Re: Donations

[roberth]

On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 19:53:54 +
Miod Vallat  wrote:

> > > Meaning, if you kill a cow in this life, you come back 
> > > as a cow and someone can kill you.
> > 
> > Time to start eating humans instead ;-)
> > 
> Please don't. It's difficult enough to get healthy young children for
> breakfast those days, I don't need competition.
> 
> Miod

just grow your own, as healthy as you want them to be.

Re: Donations

[Miod Vallat]

> > Meaning, if you kill a cow in this life, you come back 
> > as a cow and someone can kill you.
> 
> Time to start eating humans instead ;-)
> 
Please don't. It's difficult enough to get healthy young children for
breakfast those days, I don't need competition.

Miod

Re: Donations

[Kevin Chadwick]

On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 08:42:00 -0800
Mehma Sarja  wrote:

> Meaning, if you kill a cow in this life, you come back 
> as a cow and someone can kill you.

Time to start eating humans instead ;-)

Re: Donations

[SJP Lists]

On 10 December 2010 03:42, Mehma Sarja  wrote:
> On 12/9/10 4:54 AM, Chandrakant Kumar wrote:
>>
>> On Thursday 09 December 2010 05:39 PM, Hugo Osvaldo Barrera wrote:
>>>
>>> On 05/12/10 23:04, Adam M. Dutko wrote:
>
> I hope that one day due process is denied you.
>
 I am wondering what type of due process should be granted to these
 individuals.  What basis/jurisdiction of law are we talking about?
  Natural
 human rights? US law? International Law?  I'm just wondering because I
 think
 it's critical to the whole discussion.  Julian Assange isn't a US
 citizen so
 the US Government probably feels justified doing whatever they want even
 if
 it is "unethical", yet many think he should be protected by some of the
 US
 justice code/process.  Is due process universal?

>>>
>>> If I kill a cow, should I be deported to India, and processed there for
>>> that crime?  (Note that in most parts of india, it IS a crime).
>>> Oh, I live in Argentina, the largest exporter of cow-meat.  Maybe we
>>> should all be deported there.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
>>>
>>>
>> We are waiting for you here in India ;)
>>
> That's why Americans call cowburgers hamburgers, for fear of repercussions
> from the holy land. But seriously, re-incarnation takes care of all that.
> Meaning, if you kill a cow in this life, you come back as a cow and someone
> can kill you. It's the Indian version of an eye for an eye.

Sarah Palin's coming back as a dung beetle then.

Re: Donations

[roberth]

On Thu, 09 Dec 2010 08:42:00 -0800
Mehma Sarja  wrote:

> That's why Americans call cowburgers hamburgers, for fear of 
> repercussions from the holy land. But seriously, re-incarnation takes 
> care of all that. Meaning, if you kill a cow in this life, you come
> back as a cow and someone can kill you. It's the Indian version of an
> eye for an eye.

The percentage of people that (have to) kill their own food is so low
that nobody cares. Hamburgers are grown in the supermarket, hm'k?

Re: Donations

[Otto Moerbeek]

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 06:15:50PM +0100, Bret S. Lambert wrote:

> > you come back as a cow
>  ^^^
> I thought it was a toilet brush?
> 
> You just can't trust reincarnation this life.

In my former life I used to believe in reincarnation, but now I know
it's bullshit.

Re: Donations

[Bret S. Lambert]

> you come back as a cow
 ^^^
I thought it was a toilet brush?

You just can't trust reincarnation this life.

Re: Donations

[Mehma Sarja]

On 12/9/10 4:54 AM, Chandrakant Kumar wrote:

On Thursday 09 December 2010 05:39 PM, Hugo Osvaldo Barrera wrote:

On 05/12/10 23:04, Adam M. Dutko wrote:

I hope that one day due process is denied you.


I am wondering what type of due process should be granted to these
individuals.  What basis/jurisdiction of law are we talking about?  
Natural
human rights? US law? International Law?  I'm just wondering because 
I think
it's critical to the whole discussion.  Julian Assange isn't a US 
citizen so
the US Government probably feels justified doing whatever they want 
even if
it is "unethical", yet many think he should be protected by some of 
the US

justice code/process.  Is due process universal?



If I kill a cow, should I be deported to India, and processed there 
for that crime?  (Note that in most parts of india, it IS a crime).
Oh, I live in Argentina, the largest exporter of cow-meat.  Maybe we 
should all be deported there.


--
Hugo Osvaldo Barrera



We are waiting for you here in India ;)

That's why Americans call cowburgers hamburgers, for fear of 
repercussions from the holy land. But seriously, re-incarnation takes 
care of all that. Meaning, if you kill a cow in this life, you come back 
as a cow and someone can kill you. It's the Indian version of an eye for 
an eye.


Mehma

Re: Donations

[Chandrakant Kumar]

On Thursday 09 December 2010 05:39 PM, Hugo Osvaldo Barrera wrote:

On 05/12/10 23:04, Adam M. Dutko wrote:

I hope that one day due process is denied you.


I am wondering what type of due process should be granted to these
individuals.  What basis/jurisdiction of law are we talking about?  
Natural
human rights? US law? International Law?  I'm just wondering because 
I think
it's critical to the whole discussion.  Julian Assange isn't a US 
citizen so
the US Government probably feels justified doing whatever they want 
even if
it is "unethical", yet many think he should be protected by some of 
the US

justice code/process.  Is due process universal?



If I kill a cow, should I be deported to India, and processed there 
for that crime?  (Note that in most parts of india, it IS a crime).
Oh, I live in Argentina, the largest exporter of cow-meat.  Maybe we 
should all be deported there.


--
Hugo Osvaldo Barrera



We are waiting for you here in India ;)