Re: OpenBSD forked
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 2:45 AM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: They started the fork because they got kicked out because one developer (Marco) hired 5 other developers for his startup company, and attempted to hire around 10 other developers in a sneaky and underhanded way. What about http://aeriebsd.org/about.html ? Thanks Siju
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Siju George sgeorge@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 2:45 AM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: They started the fork because they got kicked out because one developer (Marco) hired 5 other developers for his startup company, and attempted to hire around 10 other developers in a sneaky and underhanded way. What about http://aeriebsd.org/about.html ? Copyright and pages from about 2008 - 2010 and in CVSweb files modified before 3 years as last and so on? Seems like one of tens of projects which start because someone thinks that just because he can fork automatically must mean that it's really needed which is wrong and there's a lot such forks in Linux world leading to nowhere. Same for Bitrig - at least forum and bugs. No change for 3 weeks or so. Even in projects not paying so much attention to PR like OpenBSD or DragonflyBSD is a lot of changes during that time. Sure everyone is free to do what he likes, but for some things you need to have focus if you want to have results and OpenBSD project is showing already for many years that they have focus and can stay on line. I don't think (just my opinion) that OpenBSD project is against changes which Bitrig want to implement, but OpenBSD want them documented, in quality and free. It's doable, but takes time and a lot of times some feature were last in OpenBSD, but when it arrived it was superb when comparing with other implementations which were already for some time on market. Thanks Siju
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Siju George sgeorge@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 2:45 AM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: They started the fork because they got kicked out because one developer (Marco) hired 5 other developers for his startup company, and attempted to hire around 10 other developers in a sneaky and underhanded way. And read complete archive on Theo's page about his kick from NetBSD project. It was completely different case and he was without chance for sure in that time and starting OpenBSD was only way. What about http://aeriebsd.org/about.html ? Thanks Siju
Re: OpenBSD forked
Marc Espie wrote: W. Richard Stevens was THE best unix books author *ever*, bar none. He's on a par with such CS giants as Don Knuth, writing-wise. Advanced Unix programming is *the* best book to understand how to write Unix code, PERIOD. Are you saying the 1992 edition is still worthwhile now in 2012?
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Sunday, 24 June 2012, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote: Marc Espie wrote: W. Richard Stevens was THE best unix books author *ever*, bar none. He's on a par with such CS giants as Don Knuth, writing-wise. Advanced Unix programming is *the* best book to understand how to write Unix code, PERIOD. Are you saying the 1992 edition is still worthwhile now in 2012? Absolutely. One book that i always recommend people to get to accompany Stevens' masterpiece is The Art of Unix Programming. These two books plus KR really is everything you need to get a good start. Cheers, Eugene -- The best the little guy can do is what the little guy does right
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 02:48:04PM +0200, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote: Marc Espie wrote: W. Richard Stevens was THE best unix books author *ever*, bar none. He's on a par with such CS giants as Don Knuth, writing-wise. Advanced Unix programming is *the* best book to understand how to write Unix code, PERIOD. Are you saying the 1992 edition is still worthwhile now in 2012? Last and 2nd edition was published in 2005. And yes, it is still relevant, even the 1st edition. Programming using the unix system calls/posix hasn't changed a lot since the nineties. -Otto
Re: OpenBSD forked
Hey, On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 03:04:39PM +0200, Marc Espie wrote: On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 02:55:02PM +0200, Gilles Chehade wrote: That's an implementation detail :-p Someone who really wants to understand things will look at the man pages and try to understand, someone who doesn't give a damn about getting things done right will produce crap with or without proper courses ... I don't think you can really understand fork/exit/wait without proper course material, just from the man pages. That is, read R.J.Steven, obviously. Do you have a reference for this? cheers, -- n
Re: OpenBSD forked
2012/6/21 Miod Vallat m...@online.fr: There's always the possibility to split OpenBSD, `outsourcing' the platforms which do not matter except to crazy nutcases to `RusticBSD'. Oh, perhaps resurrect amiga-m68k on RusticBSD then. =) -- To our sweethearts and wives. May they never meet. -- 19th century toast
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 05:22:08PM +0200, Gilles Chehade wrote:
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:09:47PM -0300, Christiano F. Haesbaert wrote:
Tedu's suggestion is the best one in my IMHO, implement a webserver.
I would try to do the following:
- Read KR
- Join ##c on freenode, they can help a *lot*.
- Read manpages of every function.
- Code small UNIX utilities, start with cat, then wc.
- Code something like a webserver, this is where you'll actually learn.
Actually, before a webserver, I'd recommend learning how to write a shell
as it will have you deal with lots of concepts you would not see
otherwise ... then network programming :-p
Just because you suffered thru a fucked-up education that's
ass-backwards doesn't mean you should wish it on other people.
('may you live in interesting times', the old chinese curse).
A shell is one of the most complicated pieces of C code to get right,
between the fucked-up parser, the lazy evaluation, the arcane shit you
have to do to various file descriptors, and the signal handling.
Among other things.
Heck, write your own kernel, it's simpler ;)
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 07:30:59PM +, Miod Vallat wrote: I do hope they succeed on that matter at least. If they can't even get amd64/i386/arm working with LLVM, then it's a rough road ahead for us when we also have to worry about sparc, sh, mips, hppa, vax, and m88k too. There's always the possibility to split OpenBSD, `outsourcing' the platforms which do not matter except to crazy nutcases to `RusticBSD'. I would prefer the crazy nutcases apply their considerable knowledge to stuff that still matters.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 01:20:09PM +0200, Marc Espie wrote:
Actually, before a webserver, I'd recommend learning how to write a shell
as it will have you deal with lots of concepts you would not see
otherwise ... then network programming :-p
Just because you suffered thru a fucked-up education that's
ass-backwards doesn't mean you should wish it on other people.
('may you live in interesting times', the old chinese curse).
Your opinion is pointless, you actually *like* perl ;-)
A shell is one of the most complicated pieces of C code to get right,
between the fucked-up parser, the lazy evaluation, the arcane shit you
have to do to various file descriptors, and the signal handling.
Among other things.
That's because you think the goal is to write a perfect shell.
The goal is to use fork, exec, signals, process groups, etc...
The shell will ultimately suck, but you will learn a lot doing
this broken piece of software.
Heck, write your own kernel, it's simpler ;)
You... like... perl.
Which explains why you'd think writing a kernel is simpler than a shell,
and why writing a shell is more complex than network programming :-)
--
Gilles Chehade
https://www.poolp.org @poolpOrg
Re: OpenBSD forked
On 22 Jun 2012, at 12:57 PM, Gilles Chehade gil...@poolp.org wrote: Your opinion is pointless, you actually *like* perl ;-) I've heard rumours that there are members of the team who are left handed use the dvorak layout *tut* :) Sevan
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 01:57:10PM +0200, Gilles Chehade wrote:
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 01:20:09PM +0200, Marc Espie wrote:
Actually, before a webserver, I'd recommend learning how to write a shell
as it will have you deal with lots of concepts you would not see
otherwise ... then network programming :-p
Just because you suffered thru a fucked-up education that's
ass-backwards doesn't mean you should wish it on other people.
('may you live in interesting times', the old chinese curse).
Your opinion is pointless, you actually *like* perl ;-)
A shell is one of the most complicated pieces of C code to get right,
between the fucked-up parser, the lazy evaluation, the arcane shit you
have to do to various file descriptors, and the signal handling.
Among other things.
That's because you think the goal is to write a perfect shell.
The goal is to use fork, exec, signals, process groups, etc...
yeah, right... and do it without any proper courses either.
So that, afterwards, when I quizz students, they don't even understand
how wait() works or anything about signal semantics.
Yet they validated that specific project...
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 02:33:13PM +0200, Marc Espie wrote:
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 01:57:10PM +0200, Gilles Chehade wrote:
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 01:20:09PM +0200, Marc Espie wrote:
Actually, before a webserver, I'd recommend learning how to write a
shell
as it will have you deal with lots of concepts you would not see
otherwise ... then network programming :-p
Just because you suffered thru a fucked-up education that's
ass-backwards doesn't mean you should wish it on other people.
('may you live in interesting times', the old chinese curse).
Your opinion is pointless, you actually *like* perl ;-)
A shell is one of the most complicated pieces of C code to get right,
between the fucked-up parser, the lazy evaluation, the arcane shit you
have to do to various file descriptors, and the signal handling.
Among other things.
That's because you think the goal is to write a perfect shell.
The goal is to use fork, exec, signals, process groups, etc...
yeah, right... and do it without any proper courses either.
So that, afterwards, when I quizz students, they don't even understand
how wait() works or anything about signal semantics.
Yet they validated that specific project...
That's an implementation detail :-p
Someone who really wants to understand things will look at the man
pages and try to understand, someone who doesn't give a damn about
getting things done right will produce crap with or without proper
courses ...
--
Gilles Chehade
https://www.poolp.org @poolpOrg
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012, at 01:57 PM, Gilles Chehade wrote:
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 01:20:09PM +0200, Marc Espie wrote:
Actually, before a webserver, I'd recommend learning how to write a shell
as it will have you deal with lots of concepts you would not see
otherwise ... then network programming :-p
Just because you suffered thru a fucked-up education that's
ass-backwards doesn't mean you should wish it on other people.
('may you live in interesting times', the old chinese curse).
Your opinion is pointless, you actually *like* perl ;-)
A shell is one of the most complicated pieces of C code to get right,
between the fucked-up parser, the lazy evaluation, the arcane shit you
have to do to various file descriptors, and the signal handling.
Among other things.
That's because you think the goal is to write a perfect shell.
The goal is to use fork, exec, signals, process groups, etc...
The shell will ultimately suck, but you will learn a lot doing
this broken piece of software.
Heck, write your own kernel, it's simpler ;)
You... like... perl.
Which explains why you'd think writing a kernel is simpler than a shell,
and why writing a shell is more complex than network programming :-)
So what is wrong with perl??
It is nearly a standard in the UNIX Admin world.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 08:57:21AM -0400, Eric Furman wrote: [...] You... like... perl. Which explains why you'd think writing a kernel is simpler than a shell, and why writing a shell is more complex than network programming :-) So what is wrong with perl?? It is nearly a standard in the UNIX Admin world. Friday trolling and messing with Marc ;-) -- Gilles Chehade https://www.poolp.org @poolpOrg
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 02:55:02PM +0200, Gilles Chehade wrote: That's an implementation detail :-p Someone who really wants to understand things will look at the man pages and try to understand, someone who doesn't give a damn about getting things done right will produce crap with or without proper courses ... I don't think you can really understand fork/exit/wait without proper course material, just from the man pages. That is, read R.J.Steven, obviously.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 08:57:21AM -0400, Eric Furman wrote: So what is wrong with perl?? It is nearly a standard in the UNIX Admin world. Nothing is wrong with perl :) Well, perl is a post-modern baroque language. Which means that it is possible to write code the way you want to write it. Some people do not like that, they think there should be One True Way to do things and nothing else. Since narrow-minded people dominate the world... lots of people don't like perl. Some people come to perl thinking it's gonna be clean and lofty. But it's not. Perl solves real problems, so it has about as many warts as C. People who want tidy solutions that don't exist to real world, not so tidy problems, do not like perl. Perl is still around and well, it morphed and evolved to incorporate any interesting technology that came its way. You've got to realize a lot of OpenBSD devs are old farts who do not grasp anything modern (and modern includes OO techniques, so perl5 doesn't appeal to them). To be fair, a lot of them are actually interested in computer knowledge, so they had a look at Smalltalk. Those happy few won't be lost with perl. Perl isn't that popular with morons, though. Most of the management types used to write code in Cobol, now they write in Cobol's descendant (yep, that's java). Oh, yeah, and the hipsters types swear by ruby, which is just tweaked perl. (or maybe I missed the latest big trend, I don't know whether that's still haskell, or node.js).
Re: OpenBSD forked
On 22 June 2012 22:55, Gilles Chehade gil...@poolp.org wrote: Someone who really wants to understand things will look at the man pages and try to understand, someone who doesn't give a damn about getting things done right will produce crap with or without proper courses ... hear = forget see = remember do = understand And the manpages, while of admirable quality in OpenBSD, are largely written for people who already understand (or aren't far off) and just need a quick reference. For many things they don't go into the details of 'why' Someone who really, really wants to understand things will look at the source code. eg. if I was sufficiently deranged to want to know the guts of UNIX terminal IO, I might look at tmux John
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Jun 22, 2012, at 2:33 PM, Marc Espie wrote: A shell is one of the most complicated pieces of C code to get right, between the fucked-up parser, the lazy evaluation, the arcane shit you have to do to various file descriptors, and the signal handling. Among other things. That's because you think the goal is to write a perfect shell. The goal is to use fork, exec, signals, process groups, etc... yeah, right... and do it without any proper courses either. So that, afterwards, when I quizz students, they don't even understand how wait() works or anything about signal semantics. Yet they validated that specific project... Doing coursework is like a good introduction, but cannot help grasp every concept and titbit of what you are doing. You'll do just as much as you need to in order to pass, and half of the code is probably wrong or simply not needed. I used to fix other semesters' coursework just for fun, and most of the time I wondered how they ever passed in the first place. The real enlightenment comes with the longer projects, when you can look at the same codebase day in, day out. You see the stuff you did half a year ago and shrug. You see other people doing unspeakable things (good and bad). And from time to time you realize the full potential of subtle bugs doing all kinds of crazy things. Sometimes it makes you laugh, sometimes you'll wonder who's going to get fired for it. But in the end you learn so much every day and you'll never be the same again. It really doesn't matter what you do, but if you are not going to use what you write you should think twice about doing it. Maybe you can also focus on adding that feature you always wanted to your favorite software and learn how to deal with revision control tools. Learn debugging unknown (and maybe complex) code, and even learn how hard it can be to avoid code regressions. Franco
Re: OpenBSD forked
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2012/06/22 3:14 PM, Marc Espie wrote: Oh, yeah, and the hipsters types swear by ruby, which is just tweaked perl. Love that line! Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJP5HKfAAoJENzqTnPMiNZl/6MH/014Ia96FQbvZOsfcRadck0P 3wCOnHTBH7Vxu2mYZVlqP+ZmflnT7AGDc16icjxjrRHuRwrHH9Kw3OFnTDG6lGZ/ wNVm+AD7MsMraFrLiUnlyDp99KG78Kdny9IyY6FhCp9+TKdEVFvBL3+w0ZuDpf2K CJOmWG4h4GAWp8ICyWhLBYpEqWCYxP9zfL23cR1kqKNtJ35LyWTlIyrtvyALQEII ZCZeyIMoVWy4Zl97mmod7PRxOu0/w6uIM/g0nQxhCudNmUN3p5xJShPQKhmJ0uJS M7e/bqcANMXi5NX08YNrDonsuIqN++JEpypK8NVepamiJ0s6vqyQHlbmAKERRL8= =Gi0R -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012, Marc Espie wrote: SNIP A shell is one of the most complicated pieces of C code to get right, between the fucked-up parser, the lazy evaluation, the arcane shit you have to do to various file descriptors, and the signal handling. Among other things. Heck, write your own kernel, it's simpler ;) yeah, just ask Linus Torvalds Past hissy-fits are not a predictor of future hissy-fits. Nick Holland(06 Dec 2005)
Re: OpenBSD forked
morons if you can't write forth code you should stay home. diana Past hissy-fits are not a predictor of future hissy-fits. Nick Holland(06 Dec 2005)
Re: OpenBSD forked
Who is J.R. Steven?
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 07:35:06AM -0600, Diana Eichert wrote: morons if you can't write forth code you should stay home. diana WORD -- http://code.phxbsd.com/
Re: OpenBSD forked
On 06/22/2012 06:35 AM, Diana Eichert wrote: morons if you can't write forth code you should stay home. diana I Love me my hand crafted postscripts... Does that count?
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 04:02:51PM +0200, Mic J wrote: Who is J.R. Steven? I think Marc intended to mention W. Richard Stevens. See http://www.kohala.com -Otto
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 12:07:43AM -0700, russell wrote: On 06/22/2012 06:35 AM, Diana Eichert wrote: morons if you can't write forth code you should stay home. diana I Love me my hand crafted postscripts... Does that count? Not really, PostScript is a mix between forth and lisp. heck, with the dictionary lookups, you can even craft OO code on top of it (yeah, I did). The only really forthy-way was the way you used to lose context from one page to another and had to manually pack/unpack content in stack-owned strings to preserve stuff from one page to the next. Sadly, that need is completely gone with level 2 and configurable GC behavior. ;-)
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Mic J michael.cogn...@gmail.com wrote: Who is J.R. Steven? Wasn't J.R.R. Stevens the one who wrote about trolls on the Internet Superhighway? -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Otto Moerbeek o...@drijf.net wrote: On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 04:02:51PM +0200, Mic J wrote: Who is J.R. Steven? I think Marc intended to mention W. Richard Stevens. See http://www.kohala.com -Otto That what i thought, no JR stevens came up in my search. (+network +perl) Closest one was, Freak economy, and the 7 habits of highly (D)Effective people. :)
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 04:22:57PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 04:02:51PM +0200, Mic J wrote: Who is J.R. Steven? I think Marc intended to mention W. Richard Stevens. See http://www.kohala.com yep, of course. Deeply sorry to have mangled his name. W. Richard Stevens was THE best unix books author *ever*, bar none. He's on a par with such CS giants as Don Knuth, writing-wise. Advanced Unix programming is *the* best book to understand how to write Unix code, PERIOD.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 05:02:22PM +0200, Marc Espie wrote: W. Richard Stevens was THE best unix books author *ever*, bar none. He's on a par with such CS giants as Don Knuth, writing-wise. Advanced Unix programming is *the* best book to understand how to write Unix code, PERIOD. That and Linux for dummies too ! -- Gilles Chehade https://www.poolp.org @poolpOrg
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 5:57 AM, Eric Furman ericfur...@fastmail.net wrote: So what is wrong with perl?? It is nearly a standard in the UNIX Admin world. It's a terrible language, and you should feel terrible for using it.
Re: OpenBSD forked
There's always the possibility to split OpenBSD, `outsourcing' the platforms which do not matter except to crazy nutcases to `RusticBSD'. I would prefer the crazy nutcases apply their considerable knowledge to stuff that still matters. Would they still be nutcases if they'd perform useful work? Miod
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 07:35:06AM -0600, Diana Eichert wrote: morons if you can't write forth code you should stay home. diana Past hissy-fits are not a predictor of future hissy-fits. Nick Holland(06 Dec 2005) I thought forth code was planted and grown like a bonsai tree. Ken
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:16:45 +0200, Gilles Chehade wrote: That and Linux for dummies too ! That reminds me - a friend had a whole bunch of little sticky labels printed. He would stick them on the front cover of $subject For Dummies books in the bookstore. They fitted between the $subject line and the For Dummies line. The sticker was very simple it said: Is Only 8-)) R/ *** NOTE *** Please DO NOT CC me. I am subscribed to the list. Mail to the sender address that does not originate at the list server is tarpitted. The reply-to: address is provided for those who feel compelled to reply off list. Thankyou. Rod/ --- This life is not the real thing. It is not even in Beta. If it was, then OpenBSD would already have a man page for it.
Re[2]: OpenBSD forked
Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:15:05 -0600 (MDT) от Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org: They started the fork because they got kicked out because one developer (Marco) hired 5 other developers for his startup company, and attempted to hire around 10 other developers in a sneaky and underhanded way. They were told, oh i forget they were asked, to not tell anyone else in OpenBSD that this was happening, probably because people including Theo would be upset. hah, it's like little kiddies: don't tell mom we've eaten all the candies WTF people, couldn't it be handled without playing these games? it's sad of course, dividing forces isn't nice, but then again what the hell, it's life. bright thing is - Theo keeps the development of the OS on the course of evolutionary changes, so all is well in the world and god is in his heaven
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? You may want to give this a try: http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html John IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan Ritchie The C Programming Language. -Otto +1 Ken
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? You may want to give this a try: http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html John IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan Ritchie The C Programming Language. -Otto +1 Pff... that's so 80's... Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Jun 21 16:35:16, Paul Irofti wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? You may want to give this a try: http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html John IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan Ritchie The C Programming Language. -Otto +1 Pff... that's so 80's... Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that. Learn C in 21 years!
Re: OpenBSD forked
On 6/21/2012 9:56 AM, Jan Stary wrote: On Jun 21 16:35:16, Paul Irofti wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? You may want to give this a try: http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html John IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan Ritchie The C Programming Language. -Otto +1 Pff... that's so 80's... Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that. Learn C in 21 years! Read APUE. If you can't program C after that you are broken. That may just take 21 years though. :) -brian
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 04:35:16PM +0300, Paul Irofti wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? You may want to give this a try: http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html John IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan Ritchie The C Programming Language. -Otto +1 Pff... that's so 80's... Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that. pfff... C for dummies in two volumes is much much better ! -- Gilles Chehade https://www.poolp.org | http://pool.ps @poolpOrg
Re: OpenBSD forked
I am reading Primus C .. i started off with K R ..lost my way in some point so someone recommended start with Primus C Thanks all for help.
Re: OpenBSD forked
Jan Stary wrote: On Jun 21 16:35:16, Paul Irofti wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan Ritchie The C Programming Language. -Otto +1 Pff... that's so 80's... Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that. Learn C in 21 years! Give them KR and put a subtitle on it: Learn C or die. That should make it eXtreme enough for the kiddies. --Kurt
Re: OpenBSD forked
Tedu's suggestion is the best one in my IMHO, implement a webserver. I would try to do the following: - Read KR - Join ##c on freenode, they can help a *lot*. - Read manpages of every function. - Code small UNIX utilities, start with cat, then wc. - Code something like a webserver, this is where you'll actually learn.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:00:58PM +0530, Jay Patel wrote: I am reading Primus C .. i started off with K R ..lost my way in some point so someone recommended start with Primus C Thanks all for help. Yes, KR requires study, but it's worth it. Be sure to return to KR at some point in time. -Otto
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:09:47PM -0300, Christiano F. Haesbaert wrote: Tedu's suggestion is the best one in my IMHO, implement a webserver. I would try to do the following: - Read KR - Join ##c on freenode, they can help a *lot*. - Read manpages of every function. - Code small UNIX utilities, start with cat, then wc. - Code something like a webserver, this is where you'll actually learn. Actually, before a webserver, I'd recommend learning how to write a shell as it will have you deal with lots of concepts you would not see otherwise ... then network programming :-p -- Gilles Chehade calomel.org, do us all a favor = https://poolp.org/calomel
Re: OpenBSD forked
On 21 June 2012 12:22, Gilles Chehade gil...@poolp.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:09:47PM -0300, Christiano F. Haesbaert wrote: Tedu's suggestion is the best one in my IMHO, implement a webserver. I would try to do the following: - Read KR - Join ##c on freenode, they can help a *lot*. - Read manpages of every function. - Code small UNIX utilities, start with cat, then wc. - Code something like a webserver, this is where you'll actually learn. Actually, before a webserver, I'd recommend learning how to write a shell as it will have you deal with lots of concepts you would not see otherwise ... then network programming :-p Yep shell is a good example. One small task I used to pass to people wanting to learn C, is to implement a strtok-like function, they could design their own API. It is interesting because they need to deal with pointers, strings, and design an API as in: - should I pass a fixed array and alloc all tokens ? - should I return an alloced structure ? - should I modify the string in place as strtok ? should I copy. A lot of decisions have to be made, and it's interesting to see how they approach it.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 05:12:22PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:00:58PM +0530, Jay Patel wrote: I am reading Primus C .. i started off with K R ..lost my way in some point so someone recommended start with Primus C Thanks all for help. Yes, KR requires study, but it's worth it. Be sure to return to KR at some point in time. I've seen a lot that someone reads KR and then says they still don't know C. Every time I question further, it turns out that they treated KR the same as an 800 page Learn X in 21 days book, and that for sure doesn't work with KR. KR is a small book with a lot of information. It shouldn't just be read quickly. You *must* understand what's written, otherwise you must stop and think and then re-read until you do understand. Only then move on. You must also at least attempt some of the exercises at the end of each section. Stopping to think, re-reading, doing exercises... all this is a lot of work. But it *is* a short book, so you can make good progress and have the end in sight. It's worth it, not only for learning C itself but also for some of the little lessons contained in the text and exercises. So you will learn some wisdom about programming in general.
Re: OpenBSD forked
Would it be right to say that the OpenBSD forked? discussion has been forked into a discussion about the best way to learn C? In my experience - the following ways are the best to learn: 1) Get a basic understanding of how a program is structured, how to interface with other programs and the user, and how the compilation and linker tools work. 2) Have an idea for a program you want to write. The rest is based on your determination. Mike On 21/06/12 15:11, Gilles Chehade wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 04:35:16PM +0300, Paul Irofti wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 08:26:31AM -0400, Kenneth R Westerback wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 09:16:24PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? You may want to give this a try: http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html John IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan Ritchie The C Programming Language. -Otto +1 Pff... that's so 80's... Cool kids these days want ``C in 21 days'' or some crap like that. pfff... C for dummies in two volumes is much much better !
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Nico Kadel-Garcia nka...@gmail.com wrote: Coming back and checking the thread, allow me to start laughing *REALLY HARD* at this, since I've seen no other comments on it. The ability to lock your hardware with libc and glibc errors is only exceeded by the kernel itself, and maintaining compilers to take advantage of new libc features is.. well, it's a lot of work too. And keeping it compatible with the various other GPL or open source tools that are commonly used in the real world? Really, really good luck with those I'm confused. The direction Bitrig is taking their toolchain is roughly the same that a lot of OpenBSD developers would like to go too, just Bitrig is explicitly not concerned about less common architectures which makes their job way easier. I do hope they succeed on that matter at least. If they can't even get amd64/i386/arm working with LLVM, then it's a rough road ahead for us when we also have to worry about sparc, sh, mips, hppa, vax, and m88k too.
Re: OpenBSD forked
I do hope they succeed on that matter at least. If they can't even get amd64/i386/arm working with LLVM, then it's a rough road ahead for us when we also have to worry about sparc, sh, mips, hppa, vax, and m88k too. There's always the possibility to split OpenBSD, `outsourcing' the platforms which do not matter except to crazy nutcases to `RusticBSD'. Miod
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 07:30:59PM +, Miod Vallat wrote: I do hope they succeed on that matter at least. If they can't even get amd64/i386/arm working with LLVM, then it's a rough road ahead for us when we also have to worry about sparc, sh, mips, hppa, vax, and m88k too. There's always the possibility to split OpenBSD, `outsourcing' the platforms which do not matter except to crazy nutcases to `RusticBSD'. Miod I prefer xvsopBSD -Otto
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Miod Vallat m...@online.fr wrote: I do hope they succeed on that matter at least. If they can't even get amd64/i386/arm working with LLVM, then it's a rough road ahead for us when we also have to worry about sparc, sh, mips, hppa, vax, and m88k too. There's always the possibility to split OpenBSD, `outsourcing' the platforms which do not matter except to crazy nutcases to `RusticBSD'. I still have high hopes for jigglypuffbsd.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Jay Patel rockworl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? Udacity.com had a good python class. Intro, from zero background, to writing a mini-google (crawler + indexer) in 7 weeks. Apparently the original form of duckduckgo (or another search engine) was written in one page of python. WTF? Python must be the best way NOT to learn anything about C. -- p
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Jun 20, 2012, at 4:53 PM, Peter Laufenberg wrote: On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Jay Patel rockworl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? Udacity.com had a good python class. Intro, from zero background, to writing a mini-google (crawler + indexer) in 7 weeks. Apparently the original form of duckduckgo (or another search engine) was written in one page of python. WTF? Python must be the best way NOT to learn anything about C. Haha, he probably meant Cython. :P
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? You may want to give this a try: http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html John
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:39:44AM -0500, John wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28:22AM +0530, Jay Patel wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? You may want to give this a try: http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html John IMO tHe most valuable book is Kernighan Ritchie The C Programming Language. -Otto
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Jay Patel rockworl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? Udacity.com had a good python class. Intro, from zero background, to writing a mini-google (crawler + indexer) in 7 weeks. Apparently the original form of duckduckgo (or another search engine) was written in one page of python. WTF? Python must be the best way NOT to learn anything about C. -- p
Re: OpenBSD forked
John openbsd () lacutt ! com You may want to give this a try: http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/learn-c-the-hard-way.html Cheers. http://publications.gbdirect.co.uk/c_book/
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Matthew Dempsky matt...@dempsky.org wrote: On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Dominguez, Roland roland.doming...@tamucc.edu wrote: I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695 4.html They also plan to port libc++ and the compiler-rt runtime library in order to remove the GPL-licensed libstdc++ and libgcc.a libraries. I've been busy lately in Germany at SVNday, a Subversion conference. It was fun, but I've been too busy to see this. Coming back and checking the thread, allow me to start laughing *REALLY HARD* at this, since I've seen no other comments on it. The ability to lock your hardware with libc and glibc errors is only exceeded by the kernel itself, and maintaining compilers to take advantage of new libc features is.. well, it's a lot of work too. And keeping it compatible with the various other GPL or open source tools that are commonly used in the real world? Really, really good luck with those If they succed, I'm going to be very, very surprised.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:59:16AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: Ariane wants to be involved as well, but is still waiting to see how others in the project feel. I've changed from waiting to being involved. And in Theo's interest in breaking secrecy: I've stepped down from maintaining uvm. Why? Politics between me and Theo. I'm unhappy with how the situation of the fork was handled. I've been collateral in the whole matter twice and taken it in stride. I've expressed interest in the fork and am now suspect/tainted. Third time's the charm. Discussions between me and Theo now trigger anger with both of us, which is not conducive to OpenBSD or our fellow developers. I cannot commit to uvm under those circumstances. Uvm is now without architect/lead, but that's fine since it has been that for years. -- Ariane
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:59:16AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: Ariane wants to be involved as well, but is still waiting to see how others in the project feel. I've changed from waiting to being involved. And in Theo's interest in breaking secrecy: I've stepped down from maintaining uvm. Why? Politics between me and Theo. About 2 weeks ago ariane came to me privately to say this: 1) That 4 weeks ago she had become aware the fork did in fact exist, counter to previous assertions all the people now working on bitrig had gotten from their boss Marco. 2) Had _just_ now decided to mention it to me. 3) Also _just now_ had decided to on a desire to work on on both projects. 4) Want to know if this would be ok; if there would be consequences. And finally: 5) For the last 4 weeks had been too busy to tell us, working 12 hour days. I said I would not decide, but to ask all the developers. However, instantly I recognized that the last part (5), about having too busy to tell us, was not truthful. The truth is, ariane did not tell us because of _fear_. And I can understand that, there are many people upset to various levels about these happenings. However, wrapping that up in a lie about having been too busy is a not good. Those 4 weeks were spent mulling over whether to be part of that fork and how to tell us, not by being too busy with work. Therefore, ariane, I do not believe that you found out something so politically big, sat on it for 4 weeks because of being too busy, and then suddenly decide to disclose it and the desire to be part of it. And that is not political. I feel that I (and others in the project) have been lied to in that part. I'm unhappy with how the situation of the fork was handled. The situation of the fork was handled entirely by Marco Peereboom -- your boss. I've been collateral in the whole matter twice and taken it in stride. Yes, we are all blameless. Especially people at that company, who all claim they got too busy to tell others that they were too busy. I've expressed interest in the fork and am now suspect/tainted. Certainly you are: You misled us. Third time's the charm. Discussions between me and Theo now trigger anger with both of us, which is not conducive to OpenBSD or our fellow developers. I was not angry in my mail -- I was truthful and exact. A diff was sent which adds a non-standard flag to mmap() to accelerate realloc() performance. For years the project has had an attitude that adding extensions to standardized system calls should be a last resort. Rather than discuss this with developers, ariane went and spent time, and then mailed in a diff -- asking only for an OK. Not requesting the start of a larger discussion, but only asking for an OK. In a reply to that diff, I (1) explained my continued reluctance for such non-standard flags. (2) I also explained that this was a poor time to put such changes into the tree with a coming hackathon, followed by the lock to our next release soon after. (3) I also then explained that due to recent events (recently two, serious repairs had to be made to ariane's uvm changes without ariane being around), I am pessimistic about the commitment level for such big changes in the tree. Normally a way around this is to test them as uncommited diffs in the snapshot builds, but I only do that for people who I totally trust (one reason is that mistakes can be quite costly, as I can damage 12 build environments in one go), and quite frankly, I do not trust Ariane nearly as much as before. At that point, Ariane got seriously angry, and has now resigned. I cannot commit to uvm under those circumstances. Unfortunate.
Re: OpenBSD forked
Hello, I'm not a Developer, Maintainer or anything else. Strictly a user. 1. Thank you to all the Developers who take time to make a product and frankly give a dam about the work and quality of it. ( Wish car makers did the same! ) 2. Even though I am not a Developer or fully understand what is going on. Taking time to send an email out of respect to a person or persons generally cause less grief. At least in my experience.. No matter how hurtful the truth is. Truth is truth and things can heal when all is placed on the table. 3. If/When this Fork comes out I may give it a test run but all the points each of you have made will make me rethink and read more before I do. 4. The short time I've been around. Theo.. Thank you for being you! Speaking your mind and keeping track. I would ask if you are ex-military but that does not matter. You give a dam about a project that is your baby and keep things in the right. Strong opinionated but very fair and level on your thoughts. That's my cent of thoughts. OBSD is my main OS and will continue to be! Even when I want to shoot my self in the foot when I don't understand how to do something at the 3rd time round reading the man page. Taking C classes now and at some point I hope to give back with more then monetary donations instead of lurking. Thank you Cody On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.orgwrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:59:16AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: Ariane wants to be involved as well, but is still waiting to see how others in the project feel. I've changed from waiting to being involved. And in Theo's interest in breaking secrecy: I've stepped down from maintaining uvm. Why? Politics between me and Theo. About 2 weeks ago ariane came to me privately to say this: 1) That 4 weeks ago she had become aware the fork did in fact exist, counter to previous assertions all the people now working on bitrig had gotten from their boss Marco. 2) Had _just_ now decided to mention it to me. 3) Also _just now_ had decided to on a desire to work on on both projects. 4) Want to know if this would be ok; if there would be consequences. And finally: 5) For the last 4 weeks had been too busy to tell us, working 12 hour days. I said I would not decide, but to ask all the developers. However, instantly I recognized that the last part (5), about having too busy to tell us, was not truthful. The truth is, ariane did not tell us because of _fear_. And I can understand that, there are many people upset to various levels about these happenings. However, wrapping that up in a lie about having been too busy is a not good. Those 4 weeks were spent mulling over whether to be part of that fork and how to tell us, not by being too busy with work. Therefore, ariane, I do not believe that you found out something so politically big, sat on it for 4 weeks because of being too busy, and then suddenly decide to disclose it and the desire to be part of it. And that is not political. I feel that I (and others in the project) have been lied to in that part. I'm unhappy with how the situation of the fork was handled. The situation of the fork was handled entirely by Marco Peereboom -- your boss. I've been collateral in the whole matter twice and taken it in stride. Yes, we are all blameless. Especially people at that company, who all claim they got too busy to tell others that they were too busy. I've expressed interest in the fork and am now suspect/tainted. Certainly you are: You misled us. Third time's the charm. Discussions between me and Theo now trigger anger with both of us, which is not conducive to OpenBSD or our fellow developers. I was not angry in my mail -- I was truthful and exact. A diff was sent which adds a non-standard flag to mmap() to accelerate realloc() performance. For years the project has had an attitude that adding extensions to standardized system calls should be a last resort. Rather than discuss this with developers, ariane went and spent time, and then mailed in a diff -- asking only for an OK. Not requesting the start of a larger discussion, but only asking for an OK. In a reply to that diff, I (1) explained my continued reluctance for such non-standard flags. (2) I also explained that this was a poor time to put such changes into the tree with a coming hackathon, followed by the lock to our next release soon after. (3) I also then explained that due to recent events (recently two, serious repairs had to be made to ariane's uvm changes without ariane being around), I am pessimistic about the commitment level for such big changes in the tree. Normally a way around this is to test them as uncommited diffs in the snapshot builds, but I only do that for people who I totally trust (one reason is that mistakes can be quite costly, as I can damage 12 build environments
Re: OpenBSD forked
I agree with Cody. And I encourage all the OpenBSD developers. You are doing a great work. Im triying to learn C by my self but its a bit complicated hahaha. Greetings from Spain El 19/06/2012 21:24, cody chandler cody.a.chand...@gmail.com escribió: Hello, I'm not a Developer, Maintainer or anything else. Strictly a user. 1. Thank you to all the Developers who take time to make a product and frankly give a dam about the work and quality of it. ( Wish car makers did the same! ) 2. Even though I am not a Developer or fully understand what is going on. Taking time to send an email out of respect to a person or persons generally cause less grief. At least in my experience.. No matter how hurtful the truth is. Truth is truth and things can heal when all is placed on the table. 3. If/When this Fork comes out I may give it a test run but all the points each of you have made will make me rethink and read more before I do. 4. The short time I've been around. Theo.. Thank you for being you! Speaking your mind and keeping track. I would ask if you are ex-military but that does not matter. You give a dam about a project that is your baby and keep things in the right. Strong opinionated but very fair and level on your thoughts. That's my cent of thoughts. OBSD is my main OS and will continue to be! Even when I want to shoot my self in the foot when I don't understand how to do something at the 3rd time round reading the man page. Taking C classes now and at some point I hope to give back with more then monetary donations instead of lurking. Thank you Cody On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:59:16AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: Ariane wants to be involved as well, but is still waiting to see how others in the project feel. I've changed from waiting to being involved. And in Theo's interest in breaking secrecy: I've stepped down from maintaining uvm. Why? Politics between me and Theo. About 2 weeks ago ariane came to me privately to say this: 1) That 4 weeks ago she had become aware the fork did in fact exist, counter to previous assertions all the people now working on bitrig had gotten from their boss Marco. 2) Had _just_ now decided to mention it to me. 3) Also _just now_ had decided to on a desire to work on on both projects. 4) Want to know if this would be ok; if there would be consequences. And finally: 5) For the last 4 weeks had been too busy to tell us, working 12 hour days. I said I would not decide, but to ask all the developers. However, instantly I recognized that the last part (5), about having too busy to tell us, was not truthful. The truth is, ariane did not tell us because of _fear_. And I can understand that, there are many people upset to various levels about these happenings. However, wrapping that up in a lie about having been too busy is a not good. Those 4 weeks were spent mulling over whether to be part of that fork and how to tell us, not by being too busy with work. Therefore, ariane, I do not believe that you found out something so politically big, sat on it for 4 weeks because of being too busy, and then suddenly decide to disclose it and the desire to be part of it. And that is not political. I feel that I (and others in the project) have been lied to in that part. I'm unhappy with how the situation of the fork was handled. The situation of the fork was handled entirely by Marco Peereboom -- your boss. I've been collateral in the whole matter twice and taken it in stride. Yes, we are all blameless. Especially people at that company, who all claim they got too busy to tell others that they were too busy. I've expressed interest in the fork and am now suspect/tainted. Certainly you are: You misled us. Third time's the charm. Discussions between me and Theo now trigger anger with both of us, which is not conducive to OpenBSD or our fellow developers. I was not angry in my mail -- I was truthful and exact. A diff was sent which adds a non-standard flag to mmap() to accelerate realloc() performance. For years the project has had an attitude that adding extensions to standardized system calls should be a last resort. Rather than discuss this with developers, ariane went and spent time, and then mailed in a diff -- asking only for an OK. Not requesting the start of a larger discussion, but only asking for an OK. In a reply to that diff, I (1) explained my continued reluctance for such non-standard flags. (2) I also explained that this was a poor time to put such changes into the tree with a coming hackathon, followed by the lock to our next release soon after. (3) I also then explained that due to recent events (recently two, serious repairs had to be made to ariane's uvm
Re: OpenBSD forked
Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? Thanks, Jay.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:28, Jay Patel wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? You will not truly learn C, or any language, until you *do* something with it. Project euler has some problems if you're into math. If you want to learn unix programming, build a tiny webserver (but never let it see the real internet). You will at least learn some basic socket and file system and string parsing techniques.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Jay Patel rockworl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? Udacity.com had a good python class. Intro, from zero background, to writing a mini-google (crawler + indexer) in 7 weeks. Apparently the original form of duckduckgo (or another search engine) was written in one page of python. Walks you through concepts, and gives you exercise to do. Good way to learn. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4
Re: OpenBSD forked
Thanks Steve, Ted, bofh .. will take your advice and will start reading code. Also doing something with it. Thanks a lot.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On 06/19/12 22:58, Jay Patel wrote: Hi all users, I am users too. Thanks cody. I am learning C too. from C primus plus any thoughts from devs. which we should read? Thanks, Jay. Well, http://openbsd.org/books.html comes to mind. But also start reading code. An absurdly simple example is 'yes'. Look at /usr/src/usr.bin/yes This shows how stuff is built. Look around the src tree. Hint: userland stuff is easier to understand so look there first, before the kernel. --STeve Andre'
Re: OpenBSD forked
On 18 June 2012 15:46, Raymond Lillard rlill...@sonic.net wrote: On 06/17/2012 12:31 PM, Peter J. Philipp wrote: Having followed OpenBSD for quite some time I noticed that good developers come and go. They come in, make something great happen, and disappear again. Also there have been forks and I also noticed that no fork gets a light judgment. Rightfully so. And then I always appreciated the permanent element in OpenBSD that guides our attention to areas we as users and sideliners don't always see immediately. I'll keep buying CD's when available and I do donations here and there when I feel like it, and I don't regret it. ditto. I almost always remain silent in political matters, (relating to OpenBSD that is). I will list some reasons why I am not going anywhere soon for a free OS. I have been using, donating hardware and purchasing CDs since 3.0. Reason 1: Legacy Architectures I have many legacy machines in service because they can be acquired for next to free (sometimes just free). These legacy machines are very good at exposing subtle bugs not found by compiling and running on Intel/AMD hardware. Since these legacy architectures are strange in the i386/AMD64 context, exploiters are unlikely to bother with them. None of my Internet facing machines are on popular architectures. I have seen attackers come and leave as soon as they figure out what they are up against. The combination of OpenBSD and uncommon architectures is a very tough nut to crack. Reason 2: Security This is an unknown. All FOSS claims to be free, fast and secure. Even Microsoft claims to be secure. Maybe the new team will be as fanatical as Theo, likely not if their FAQ is to be believed. Their reputation for security will be revealed with the passage of time. Reason 3: Crypto I don't know where the new project is located, but they seem to have a server in Southfield, MI USA and another in Denmark. I hope none of the developers is subject to US export laws regarding cryptography and that the code is maintained on servers also not subject to those laws. Just look at the recent MegaUpLoad case. That case is reportedly about a bunch of ripped off movies. I have googled a bit and have not found a physical location for the project or its code. Reason 4: Stability The new project FAQ states they intend to be less restrictive with the codebase when it comes to experimenting with features. Maybe in the long run some of the new features may be introduced into OBSD, but in the near term I expect much instability given the broad range of deeply embedded things they intend to change. Reason 1 is a big problem for me and my crusty old war horses. Reasons 2 3 may be unfounded, the secrecy here (there are no developer names listed on the project web site) is not very confidence building. As to reason 4, I am only mildly interested in fast. I want correct and stable execution above all else. For this reason I expect to continue with OBSD for a long time. I do have considerable sympathy for clearing GNU out of the code base though. Now going back into lurker mode. Regards, Ray The secretive nature is concerning. But I hope that this situation can somehow turn out to be beneficial to both projects in the long term. As long as my favourite and most relied upon OS continues to evolve, I will be happy. And I will certainly continue to buy from and donate to the OpenBSD project where possible. Shane
Re: OpenBSD forked
The secretive nature is concerning. But I hope that this situation can somehow turn out to be beneficial to both projects in the long term. As long as my favourite and most relied upon OS continues to evolve, I will be happy. And I will certainly continue to buy from and donate to the OpenBSD project where possible. Well let me break some secrets. It is run by Marco Peereboom, and the machines it operators on are associated with the company comformal and their partners. Dale Rahn is in there too. So is Thordur, certain. Owain is involved too, I think. I am certain someone can use their git to find out who they are. Ariane wants to be involved as well, but is still waiting to see how others in the project feel. All of those people work for Marco Peereboom as employees and contractors. They are a US operation.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On 14/06/2012 3:44 AM, Dominguez, Roland wrote: I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695 4.html Those who do not study history... https://www.bitrig.org/viewgit/?a=viewblobp=bitrigh=59fc82dbaf7eaff6cf9ee6aa607951587f5d6d7fhb=HEADf=usr.bin/banner/banner.1
Re: OpenBSD forked
On 2012-06-18 02:46, Raymond Lillard wrote: Reason 4: Stability The new project FAQ states they intend to be less restrictive with the codebase when it comes to experimenting with features. Maybe in the long run some of the new features may be introduced into OBSD, but in the near term I expect much instability given the broad range of deeply embedded things they intend to change. This is very much what I'd expect: they experiment with several features, being not-so-stable most of the the process, but maybe once some of those features mature and become stable enough, they can be ported back to OpenBSD. Their work getting rid of GNU stuff will, inevitably, affect OpenBSD (if they succeed at that anyway). -- Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
Re: OpenBSD forked
yes. some more, some less. The feature argument - surely any barriers there must mean that that ideal goes against everything OpenBSD stands for. I wonder if that's just a developer enticer. I wouldn't mind better ARM support but I don't see why that couldn't be done under the OpenBSD project anyway. From the website atleast, maybe the code says more. I fail to see the reasoning. Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
Re: OpenBSD forked
Their work getting rid of GNU stuff will, inevitably, affect OpenBSD (if they succeed at that anyway). Hmm, I personally prefer BSD Style licence. For me, BSD Philosophy has much more freedom. NOT Copyleft. ( I love it very much ) I'd like to see more BSD style stuffs coming in. anyway GPL is also doing a good job in the world of Open Source. -- Thank you Indunil Jayasooriya
Re: OpenBSD forked
Well. From PC-BSD ,FreeBSD gained much benefit. Hope that might happen here too. Regards, Jay.
Re: OpenBSD forked
NO. GPL IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO TRUE FREE SOFTWARE. YES, I KNOW I AM SHOUTING. PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT THE PERVERTED GOALS OF THE FSF. On Mon, Jun 18, 2012, at 02:55 PM, Indunil Jayasooriya wrote: Their work getting rid of GNU stuff will, inevitably, affect OpenBSD (if they succeed at that anyway). Hmm, I personally prefer BSD Style licence. For me, BSD Philosophy has much more freedom. NOT Copyleft. ( I love it very much ) I'd like to see more BSD style stuffs coming in. anyway GPL is also doing a good job in the world of Open Source. -- Thank you Indunil Jayasooriya
Re: OpenBSD forked
speaking of stuck CAPSLOCK, anyone else having DEL/INS problems on US keyboards w/ Euro key on 5? They're cheapo USB Dell manufactured by Logitech. Tweaking wscons flags didn't help (not running X11); should I remap keys individually? -- p NO. GPL IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO TRUE FREE SOFTWARE. YES, I KNOW I AM SHOUTING. PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT THE PERVERTED GOALS OF THE FSF. On Mon, Jun 18, 2012, at 02:55 PM, Indunil Jayasooriya wrote: Their work getting rid of GNU stuff will, inevitably, affect OpenBSD (if they succeed at that anyway). Hmm, I personally prefer BSD Style licence. For me, BSD Philosophy has much more freedom. NOT Copyleft. ( I love it very much ) I'd like to see more BSD style stuffs coming in. anyway GPL is also doing a good job in the world of Open Source. -- Thank you Indunil Jayasooriya
Re: OpenBSD forked
geez, it's a /segway/ -- p Dont steal the thread. On Jun 18, 2012 9:55 AM, Peter Laufenberg open...@laufenberg.ch wrote: speaking of stuck CAPSLOCK, anyone else having DEL/INS problems on US keyboards w/ Euro key on 5? They're cheapo USB Dell manufactured by Logitech. Tweaking wscons flags didn't help (not running X11); should I remap keys individually? -- p NO. GPL IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO TRUE FREE SOFTWARE. YES, I KNOW I AM SHOUTING. PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT THE PERVERTED GOALS OF THE FSF. On Mon, Jun 18, 2012, at 02:55 PM, Indunil Jayasooriya wrote: Their work getting rid of GNU stuff will, inevitably, affect OpenBSD (if they succeed at that anyway). Hmm, I personally prefer BSD Style licence. For me, BSD Philosophy has much more freedom. NOT Copyleft. ( I love it very much ) I'd like to see more BSD style stuffs coming in. anyway GPL is also doing a good job in the world of Open Source. -- Thank you Indunil Jayasooriya
Re: OpenBSD forked
Funny thing is, I've never been upset about the 20+ OpenBSD and ex-OpenBSD developers who now work for google. Do they still work on OpenBSD and contribute back? -- p
Re: OpenBSD forked
I meant . Theo is right. Truth hurts. :D
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 16:14, Peter Laufenberg wrote: Funny thing is, I've never been upset about the 20+ OpenBSD and ex-OpenBSD developers who now work for google. Do they still work on OpenBSD and contribute back? yes. some more, some less.
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 16:14, Peter Laufenberg wrote: Funny thing is, I've never been upset about the 20+ OpenBSD and ex-OpenBSD developers who now work for google. Do they still work on OpenBSD and contribute back? yes. some more, some less. first off, I do not understand the word back that Peter used. they simply contribute by making changes in our tree. they don't contribute back. using back implies that what they work on at google has anything to do with openbsd. none of us know if that is the case, and if it is, so what? they are free to do anything they want. google is their job. other people have jobs too :-) those openbsd developers who work there, and also do commits here, do so out of passion, and fully cooperate with the other developers to move a source tree forward. that's good enough for us. other people work at other jobs, and the same happens. secondly, what strikes me as very interesting is that almost all developers who get new jobs -- at google or elsewhere -- tell their co-developers that they are in the midst of a life-changing moment in their lives, and that will get busy and not be of as much use in the next while. except that did not happen for the crew marco hired. in that case, secrecy was paramount. in that case, they got busy and did not tell the people they were working with. they effectively abandoned the projects that were active in the tree headed to the next release, and left other developers hanging out to dry -- by not telling them that 5+ of them were suddenly not capable of helping. as a group, they chose to be ex-OpenBSD developers, by their actions of not participating with partners they had promised to develop with. even now, some active OpenBSD developers are judging me for my reaction, and I can understand the uncertainly of their position. make of it what you will. it's too stressfull. perhaps i should become an ex-OpenBSD developer too, those people seem to have much more glamourous lives...
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 12:24:38PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: make of it what you will. it's too stressfull. perhaps i should become an ex-OpenBSD developer too, those people seem to have much more glamourous lives... Having followed OpenBSD for quite some time I noticed that good developers come and go. They come in, make something great happen, and disappear again. Also there have been forks and I also noticed that no fork gets a light judgement. Rightfully so. And then I always appreciated the permanent element in OpenBSD that guides our attention to areas we as users and sideliners don't always see immediately. I'll keep buying CD's when available and I do donations here and there when I feel like it, and I don't regret it. If I were you I'd stay for as long as the salary is good and if there is more money to go around employ some people in Calgary or something. Made in Canada is great! I just can't see you working for google or microsoft :-P. -peter
Re: OpenBSD forked
On 2012-06-17 21.31, Peter J. Philipp wrote: And then I always appreciated the permanent element in OpenBSD that guides our attention to areas we as users and sideliners don't always see immediately. I'll keep buying CD's when available and I do donations here and there when I feel like it, and I don't regret it. +1 /B -- internetlabbet.se / work: +46 8 551 124 80 / Words must Benny Lofgren/ mobile: +46 70 718 11 90 / be weighed, / fax:+46 8 551 124 89/not counted. /email: benny -at- internetlabbet.se
Re: OpenBSD forked
11 1010101 - Original Message - From: Peter J. Philipp p...@centroid.eu To: Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org Cc: open...@laufenberg.ch, t...@tedunangst.com, misc@openbsd.org Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 3:31:36 PM Subject: Re: OpenBSD forked
Re: OpenBSD forked
On 06/17/2012 12:31 PM, Peter J. Philipp wrote: Having followed OpenBSD for quite some time I noticed that good developers come and go. They come in, make something great happen, and disappear again. Also there have been forks and I also noticed that no fork gets a light judgment. Rightfully so. And then I always appreciated the permanent element in OpenBSD that guides our attention to areas we as users and sideliners don't always see immediately. I'll keep buying CD's when available and I do donations here and there when I feel like it, and I don't regret it. ditto. I almost always remain silent in political matters, (relating to OpenBSD that is). I will list some reasons why I am not going anywhere soon for a free OS. I have been using, donating hardware and purchasing CDs since 3.0. Reason 1: Legacy Architectures I have many legacy machines in service because they can be acquired for next to free (sometimes just free). These legacy machines are very good at exposing subtle bugs not found by compiling and running on Intel/AMD hardware. Since these legacy architectures are strange in the i386/AMD64 context, exploiters are unlikely to bother with them. None of my Internet facing machines are on popular architectures. I have seen attackers come and leave as soon as they figure out what they are up against. The combination of OpenBSD and uncommon architectures is a very tough nut to crack. Reason 2: Security This is an unknown. All FOSS claims to be free, fast and secure. Even Microsoft claims to be secure. Maybe the new team will be as fanatical as Theo, likely not if their FAQ is to be believed. Their reputation for security will be revealed with the passage of time. Reason 3: Crypto I don't know where the new project is located, but they seem to have a server in Southfield, MI USA and another in Denmark. I hope none of the developers is subject to US export laws regarding cryptography and that the code is maintained on servers also not subject to those laws. Just look at the recent MegaUpLoad case. That case is reportedly about a bunch of ripped off movies. I have googled a bit and have not found a physical location for the project or its code. Reason 4: Stability The new project FAQ states they intend to be less restrictive with the codebase when it comes to experimenting with features. Maybe in the long run some of the new features may be introduced into OBSD, but in the near term I expect much instability given the broad range of deeply embedded things they intend to change. Reason 1 is a big problem for me and my crusty old war horses. Reasons 2 3 may be unfounded, the secrecy here (there are no developer names listed on the project web site) is not very confidence building. As to reason 4, I am only mildly interested in fast. I want correct and stable execution above all else. For this reason I expect to continue with OBSD for a long time. I do have considerable sympathy for clearing GNU out of the code base though. Now going back into lurker mode. Regards, Ray
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Dominguez, Roland roland.doming...@tamucc.edu wrote: I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695 4.html Yes, it's legit and it reflects the reality of the facts Except for the fact that it is bullshit. They started the fork because they got kicked out because one developer (Marco) hired 5 other developers for his startup company, and attempted to hire around 10 other developers in a sneaky and underhanded way. They were told, oh i forget they were asked, to not tell anyone else in OpenBSD that this was happening, probably because people including Theo would be upset. Funny thing is, I've never been upset about the 20+ OpenBSD and ex-OpenBSD developers who now work for google. Previously, many of those developers were in critical positions in the development team. As they were suddenly hired with such terms and conditions, they became more scarce in OpenBSD -- perhaps because they suddenly got real busy with work, but also to avoid telling others that this was happening. Various projects lagged. To avoid telling a lie, they instead chose to not tell the truth. It had effects. It was dishonest of them to not tell their co-developers that they were creating vacuums in the development process. So because of those decisions, they are now gone from OpenBSD. And now they miss it. So now, all these guys who work for the same company have started a fork. And it is directed by the guy who hired them in the first place. From where I stand, that is the truth. Yet none of that is in that article, because the truth hurts, doesn't it guys?
Re: OpenBSD forked
Hehehe .. :P
OpenBSD forked
I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695 4.html
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Dominguez, Roland roland.doming...@tamucc.edu wrote: I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695 4.html Yes, it's legit and it reflects the reality of the facts
Re: OpenBSD forked
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Dominguez, Roland roland.doming...@tamucc.edu wrote: I just came across this article and was wondering if it's legit: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/OpenBSD-forked-to-create-Bitrig-161695 4.html They also plan to port libc++ and the compiler-rt runtime library in order to remove the GPL-licensed libstdc++ and libgcc.a libraries. I'm interested to see what they do about replacing the _Unwind_*() functions in libgcc.a that handle unwinding the stack during C++ exception handling. Currently the only BSD-licensed implementation I know of is libunwind, which looks like a large undertaking to port to OpenBSD.
