Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
hmm, on Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:03:19PM -0500, Nick Holland said that You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored. a beautiful attitude. i hope the project won't acquire it also. because even though we are the lowest life form, the users of this system, we also contribute back as much as we can, and actually make this system better. and of course, we pay Theo's bills you like it or not. anyway did i say something else? feel free to ignore it. i will submit at least one, even if ignored. because i care. and because as a poster before me beautifully pointed out Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the basis of technical merit. and if Theo doesn't know what's good html, he should ask someone in his core team who does, because he's a kernel hacker and nobody expects him to know that. and sorry Nick, but i think it shouldn't be you. your opposition to anything new is a sad contradiction to the openbsd way. OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project. snip the rest of Nick politics i have been here for quite some time now Nick, you don't have to explain to me how the project is run. as if i didn't know. If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be restructured. If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if something other than one of two things were to happen: 1) Theo rebuilds it and says, here's the new design. 2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the result and says, here is the new design (or rips someone's head off). why do you speak for him? you suddenly became his spokesperson? and if this is the way to do it, then ASK that one person to do it and send it to misc@ for comments (as you said in your decalogue which started all this) Committee design is NOT what we are about. You don't see contests for CD designs or release themes. exactly, damn it! the cd's can be nice and the page not? where is the logics? why doesn't Theo just spit out the cd's with the same ascii art cover and sleeve every year? because DESIGN MATTERS. you just blew your argument. now go and compare the cd covers with the site please. Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company. trying to make me ridiculous again? you think i think openbsd is a web-design company? again, this extremism on this list, one can breathe it. you used be much humbler a couple of years ago. problem occupying my time. BTW: quality of work will be judged on content, not style. BTW. quality of work will be judged on content AND style. one does not exclude the other? and who said the dev's should do it? they can code. that doesn't mean they can do everything else included. the fact that YOU cannot make the pages look better does not mean someone else shouldn't be given a shot. or as i said, at least make them f#$%^ validate. i will send the patches at least for this feel free to ignore them again. because as you are now Theo's spokesperson, then you might know what he thinks about standards in general: yeah, break them all. -f -- i'll give you a definite maybe.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
Heya, list! C'mon ppl, stop argue and yell at each other Just do whatever you feel it's necessary and propose your work - Original Message - From: frantisek holop [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: misc misc@openbsd.org Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs) hmm, on Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:03:19PM -0500, Nick Holland said that You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored. a beautiful attitude. i hope the project won't acquire it also. because even though we are the lowest life form, the users of this system, we also contribute back as much as we can, and actually make this system better. and of course, we pay Theo's bills you like it or not. anyway did i say something else? feel free to ignore it. i will submit at least one, even if ignored. because i care. and because as a poster before me beautifully pointed out Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the basis of technical merit. and if Theo doesn't know what's good html, he should ask someone in his core team who does, because he's a kernel hacker and nobody expects him to know that. and sorry Nick, but i think it shouldn't be you. your opposition to anything new is a sad contradiction to the openbsd way. OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project. snip the rest of Nick politics i have been here for quite some time now Nick, you don't have to explain to me how the project is run. as if i didn't know. If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be restructured. If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if something other than one of two things were to happen: 1) Theo rebuilds it and says, here's the new design. 2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the result and says, here is the new design (or rips someone's head off). why do you speak for him? you suddenly became his spokesperson? and if this is the way to do it, then ASK that one person to do it and send it to misc@ for comments (as you said in your decalogue which started all this) Committee design is NOT what we are about. You don't see contests for CD designs or release themes. exactly, damn it! the cd's can be nice and the page not? where is the logics? why doesn't Theo just spit out the cd's with the same ascii art cover and sleeve every year? because DESIGN MATTERS. you just blew your argument. now go and compare the cd covers with the site please. Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company. trying to make me ridiculous again? you think i think openbsd is a web-design company? again, this extremism on this list, one can breathe it. you used be much humbler a couple of years ago. problem occupying my time. BTW: quality of work will be judged on content, not style. BTW. quality of work will be judged on content AND style. one does not exclude the other? and who said the dev's should do it? they can code. that doesn't mean they can do everything else included. the fact that YOU cannot make the pages look better does not mean someone else shouldn't be given a shot. or as i said, at least make them f#$%^ validate. i will send the patches at least for this feel free to ignore them again. because as you are now Theo's spokesperson, then you might know what he thinks about standards in general: yeah, break them all. -f -- i'll give you a definite maybe.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
... damn keyboard... where was I... Aaa.. Propose your work, no matter alfa/beta... for everybody's viewing pleasure Then and only then it would be decided by project's leader if it's worth to change something or not Does anybody drive on the right in Australia just because he feel it would be right? No, because there are laws and the individuum must obey them. Same here. The project has it's leader and, personally, either I'm agree or not - I obey the rules Cheers. - Original Message - From: frantisek holop [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: misc misc@openbsd.org Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs) hmm, on Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:03:19PM -0500, Nick Holland said that You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored. a beautiful attitude. i hope the project won't acquire it also. because even though we are the lowest life form, the users of this system, we also contribute back as much as we can, and actually make this system better. and of course, we pay Theo's bills you like it or not. anyway did i say something else? feel free to ignore it. i will submit at least one, even if ignored. because i care. and because as a poster before me beautifully pointed out Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the basis of technical merit. and if Theo doesn't know what's good html, he should ask someone in his core team who does, because he's a kernel hacker and nobody expects him to know that. and sorry Nick, but i think it shouldn't be you. your opposition to anything new is a sad contradiction to the openbsd way. OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project. snip the rest of Nick politics i have been here for quite some time now Nick, you don't have to explain to me how the project is run. as if i didn't know. If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be restructured. If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if something other than one of two things were to happen: 1) Theo rebuilds it and says, here's the new design. 2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the result and says, here is the new design (or rips someone's head off). why do you speak for him? you suddenly became his spokesperson? and if this is the way to do it, then ASK that one person to do it and send it to misc@ for comments (as you said in your decalogue which started all this) Committee design is NOT what we are about. You don't see contests for CD designs or release themes. exactly, damn it! the cd's can be nice and the page not? where is the logics? why doesn't Theo just spit out the cd's with the same ascii art cover and sleeve every year? because DESIGN MATTERS. you just blew your argument. now go and compare the cd covers with the site please. Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company. trying to make me ridiculous again? you think i think openbsd is a web-design company? again, this extremism on this list, one can breathe it. you used be much humbler a couple of years ago. problem occupying my time. BTW: quality of work will be judged on content, not style. BTW. quality of work will be judged on content AND style. one does not exclude the other? and who said the dev's should do it? they can code. that doesn't mean they can do everything else included. the fact that YOU cannot make the pages look better does not mean someone else shouldn't be given a shot. or as i said, at least make them f#$%^ validate. i will send the patches at least for this feel free to ignore them again. because as you are now Theo's spokesperson, then you might know what he thinks about standards in general: yeah, break them all. -f -- i'll give you a definite maybe.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 11:52:27AM +0200, John G. Gavrilitsa said that Aaa.. Propose your work, no matter alfa/beta... for everybody's viewing pleasure i will, i will. hopefully others as well. we all know the mantra here. shut up and so on. just need some time, i did not except this thread to escalate like this. i know empty words do nothing. at least it's out in the open that some people would welcome something else and not everybody agrees with the way Nick's doing the pages (not content-wise of course) god, i miss the polls on undeadly. -f -- man is the only animal that blushes. or needs to.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
If someone care the layout of book instead the content, he shouldn't read it. If someone care the layout of OpenBSD website more than content, he should change OS, use some other, that got nice website. At 12:20 2005-11-28, you wrote: hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 12:15:30PM +0100, Marcin Wilk said that Current website is vry useful. Useful don't have to be nice. From my poin of view it shows how OpenBSD is working. Maybe design isn't the most nice, but inside there is best documentation ever. The same is with OS itself. It's not the most nice OS (no flowers on letter, no clouds angels on the KDE icons) but the power of source make it the most stable secure OS around. So if website present how OS is.. Then it should not be changed. but nobody talks about the content. the content is excellent! would it be a sin to make it a little more pleasing to the eye? a book can be very good inside, but if the form is disturbing doesn't that make the reading experience weaker maybe even nerving? -f -- dyslexics of the world: untie!
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 12:33:49AM -0600, J Moore wrote: Why don't you cut the guy some slack - or at least shut your yap on this (puh-l-e-e-e-ze)? I don't see *any* of what you're claiming to be OpenBSD policy stated on the website. In fact I see a statement (somewhat) to the contrary: Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the basis of technical merit. Refers to the products of the project, of which the website is not one. Nick has certainly captured what I think is the consensus of the developer community. At least those who have been forced by the noise to think about it. And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let the man speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the official OpenBSD bitch, please - let us know. As far as I can recall Theo has already commented once that the website is not going to be redesigned in the forseeable future since it is accomplishing its purposes as laid out by Nick. I doubt that this topic is of sufficient interest to generate multiple comments. Ken Jay On Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:03:19PM -0500, the unit calling itself Nick Holland wrote: frantisek holop wrote: dear list, before Theo brings up the (very) valid point of haven't been able to see any proposed design (even if rejected without looking) i would like to ask fellow designers or anyone who feels like to make an openbsd site design proposal just to show that actually there is interest in making the old pages retire after so many years of faithful serving. i am willing to host all the participants' efforts as a central repository, or even only links to these pages. make some noise people, so we can say at least we tried. -f Like FreeBSD and NetBSD's redesign our web site contest. Riiight.. No. We've spent way too much time laughing at those already (both the process and the results). You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored. OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project. I think a lot of people miss this. If there is ONE THING that distinguishes OpenBSD from most other OSs out there, it is the fact that OpenBSD is the work of a small group of people following the lead of *one* person. There is no question of direction, there is no five different products to accomplish same task, because we don't have the guts to make a decision and endorse just one. As has been pointed out repeatedly, OpenBSD developers develop the OS for their own use. If your uses are compatible with the developer's goals, OpenBSD is for you. If not, you quickly realize not to waste your time. You don't see OpenBSD flopping around without a clear direction. You don't end up wondering, will they change directions to meet my goals, or will they abandon my goals?. If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be restructured. If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if something other than one of two things were to happen: 1) Theo rebuilds it and says, here's the new design. 2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the result and says, here is the new design (or rips someone's head off). Committee design is NOT what we are about. You don't see contests for CD designs or release themes. Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company. Our product is not a super-cool website. Our product is an OS we need and use. The website is just an information source about the product, maintained by software developers and documenters. When I write material to help other people with similar interests use OpenBSD, I'm not worried about if it uses the features of the best of the current crop of browsers, I want to get the information across effectively. I measure my success based on the information conveyed, not how pretty it is. I have reason to believe I do a half-way decent job at this. If someone wishes to prove they can do a better job, go for it, I'm sure Theo would love to have a more productive person doing what I do (and what he would like me to do that I'll never have time for). I won't fight it. I have not been bored in well over 20 years, I have NO problem occupying my time. BTW: quality of work will be judged on content, not style. Nick.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 08:24:03AM -0500, the unit calling itself Kenneth R Westerback wrote: And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let the man speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the official OpenBSD bitch, please - let us know. As far as I can recall Theo has already commented once that the website is not going to be redesigned in the forseeable future since it is accomplishing its purposes as laid out by Nick. I doubt that this topic is of sufficient interest to generate multiple comments. Well that's fine - and I assume Nick knows this? So why do you suppose he felt it necessary to jump down the guy's throat? Why not just let it go? That way, Nick could spend his time brushing up on web design instead of wasting it in this fashion? Jay
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Nov 28, 2005, at 9:37 AM, J Moore wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 08:24:03AM -0500, the unit calling itself Kenneth R Westerback wrote: And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let the man speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the official OpenBSD bitch, please - let us know. As far as I can recall Theo has already commented once that the website is not going to be redesigned in the forseeable future since it is accomplishing its purposes as laid out by Nick. I doubt that this topic is of sufficient interest to generate multiple comments. Well that's fine - and I assume Nick knows this? So why do you suppose he felt it necessary to jump down the guy's throat? Why not just let it go? That way, Nick could spend his time brushing up on web design instead of wasting it in this fashion? I assume it's because Nick is a VOLUNTEER that spends an unlimited amount of time keeping the site updated with CONTENT. He knows that no matter what design changes he wishes to make will undoubtedly be shot down by Theo since the site is already FUNCTIONAL and meets the goals of the project. I don't speak for Nick, but I imagine he probably feels a bit unappreciated when folks feel like nitpicking his design, when that is probably not his job (certainly not his focus) in the first place. If you want to bitch about the design, take it to the ultimate arbitrator-- Theo, preferably OFFLIST. -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 01:57:57AM -0500, the unit calling itself STeve Andre' wrote: Why don't you cut the guy some slack - or at least shut your yap on this (puh-l-e-e-e-ze)? I don't see *any* of what you're claiming to be OpenBSD policy stated on the website. In fact I see a statement (somewhat) to the contrary: Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the basis of technical merit. And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let the man speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the official OpenBSD bitch, please - let us know. Jay Jay, I would think that the lack of response from Theo should say something. I agree with Nick; functionality over form *any* day. The current web site is quite reasonable I think. Could it be improved? Probably. But the site is still very good, and I for one would rather see the project move along the way it has been. You know Steve, I tend to agree with you. I've never had any problems with the website. I know the person who posted the original question has the best of intentions, but I don't think he quite understands how things work. And no, there probably isn't a statement of exactly how things work. Watching the mailing lists is the way to learn. I think that *is* stated on the site. I think he did, too. That's why I don't understand Nick insulting the guy, and bashing his ideas. Clearly Nick's opinions don't mesh, but why would he pursue this cross-thread vendetta? The only result of this sort of behavior is that a potential contributor is alienated. Seems what someone would learn from watching the mailing lists and reading these acrimonious threads is that outsiders are not welcome, and new ideas are not tolerated. This is illogical: if different ideas are unwelcome, and not to be tolerated, then why isn't this list taken off-line? Frankly, sometimes this list reads more like one of a backwoods religious cult than a computer operating system. Jay
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 09:54:34AM -0500, the unit calling itself Jason Dixon wrote: I don't speak for Nick, but I imagine he probably feels a bit unappreciated when folks feel like nitpicking his design, when that is probably not his job (certainly not his focus) in the first place. If you want to bitch about the design, take it to the ultimate arbitrator-- Theo, preferably OFFLIST. Where did you get the idea that *I* wanted to bitch about the design? If you'll re-read my post a bit more carefully, I don't think you'll find anywhere that I said anything derogatory about the current website. PRBP, Jay
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:37:56 -0600, J Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 08:24:03AM -0500, the unit calling itself Kenneth R Westerback wrote: And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let the man speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the official OpenBSD bitch, please - let us know. As far as I can recall Theo has already commented once that the website is not going to be redesigned in the forseeable future since it is accomplishing its purposes as laid out by Nick. I doubt that this topic is of sufficient interest to generate multiple comments. Well that's fine - and I assume Nick knows this? So why do you suppose he felt it necessary to jump down the guy's throat? Why not just let it go? That way, Nick could spend his time brushing up on web design instead of wasting it in this fashion? Jay, The answers to your questions are posted all over this list, namely, this frantisek character is very intentionally trolling up a storm and he's done it before in the past. You failed to notice what is really going on around you and you just reacted without thinking. None the less, you owe Nick an apology. Your official OpenBSD bitch comment was not only totally uninformed, it was way out of line. Who are you to question or judge how Nick decides to spend his time? It's obvious you don't bother reading the other stuff around here, so why do you waste your time reading Nicks' posts and insulting him for telling you the truth? JCR
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On 11/28/05, Jason Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I assume it's because Nick is a VOLUNTEER that spends an unlimited amount of time keeping the site updated with CONTENT. He knows that no matter what design changes he wishes to make will undoubtedly be shot down by Theo since the site is already FUNCTIONAL and meets the goals of the project. Well, simply as a matter of fact, it's actually untrue that the site is functional. Functional for you? Maybe. For everyone? Not exactly. Check this out: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openbsd.orgcharset=%28det ect+automatically%29 There are 5 errors on the main page alone. That means that no matter how useful the content on the website is, the code breaks down for a lot of people. Standards are important. Where HTML is concerned, they're doubly so, because there are so many different clients (browsers) being used by so many different kinds of people. http://www.webstandards.org/about/ http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/ I'm really underwhelmed by comments like Why don't you cut the guy some slack and I don't speak for Nick, but I imagine he probably feels a unappreciated when folks feel like nitpicking his design Excusing errors in the interests of not hurting someone's feelings is a great way to end up with a third-rate product. The website is hacky, invalid, and broken. Not to mention the fact that most people think it's ugly. If that hurts someone's feelings then I'm sorry, but it does no one any favors to ignore errors and broken code. If no one is in charge of making sure that the site is good, then someone should be in charge of that. - Jeremy -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Nov 28, 2005, at 10:06 AM, J Moore wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 09:54:34AM -0500, the unit calling itself Jason Dixon wrote: I don't speak for Nick, but I imagine he probably feels a bit unappreciated when folks feel like nitpicking his design, when that is probably not his job (certainly not his focus) in the first place. If you want to bitch about the design, take it to the ultimate arbitrator-- Theo, preferably OFFLIST. Where did you get the idea that *I* wanted to bitch about the design? If you'll re-read my post a bit more carefully, I don't think you'll find anywhere that I said anything derogatory about the current website. ... Nick could spend his time brushing up on web design instead of wasting it in this fashion. -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005, J.C. Roberts wrote: On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:29:43 -0500, Jeremy David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are 5 errors on the main page alone. That means that no matter how useful the content on the website is, the code breaks down for a lot of people. Standards are important. Where HTML is concerned, they're doubly so, because there are so many different clients (browsers) being used by so many different kinds of people. Jeremy, I encourage you to do a bit more research before posting something like the above. Did you really think the compliance errors were never noticed before you pointed them out? Yes, you are right that the site is not perfectly W3C standards compliant. The point you missed is the overwhelming majority of clients (browsers) are *ALSO* not compliant with the standards. The supposed errors you pointed out are nothing more than work-arounds for non-compliant browsers. Contrary to your claims, those supposed errors do not break anything, instead they actually _FIX_ problems in buggy browsers. It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd -Otto
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On 11/28/05, Eric Faurot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/28/05, Jeremy David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The website is hacky, invalid, and broken. broken? which page? which browser? Hi. Thanks for joining the conversation, Eric. I appreciate your question, but I believe to cite a particular page which doesn't work as intended on a particular browser would be to miss the point. What is means when the HTML code is invalid is that you're inviting unpredictability. Sure, it might look ok in this version of Firefox, but what about the next version of FIrefox? Or the 2007 edition of Konquerer? The only way to make sure that your HTML code will not cause an unpredictable fault in a browser now, or in the future is to make the code valid. Making the code valid now will save you a lot of trouble in the future when, hypothetically, Firefox 2 is released and it chokes and dies on this particular piece of invalid code. Why wait around until it breaks? The best way to handle the problem is to fix it now, so that you don't have to rush and fix it when it crashes and burns later. - Jeremy
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On 11/28/05, J.C. Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:29:43 -0500, Jeremy David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are 5 errors on the main page alone. That means that no matter how useful the content on the website is, the code breaks down for a lot of people. Standards are important. Where HTML is concerned, they're doubly so, because there are so many different clients (browsers) being used by so many different kinds of people. Jeremy, I encourage you to do a bit more research before posting something like the above. Did you really think the compliance errors were never noticed before you pointed them out? Yes, you are right that the site is not perfectly W3C standards compliant. The point you missed is the overwhelming majority of clients (browsers) are *ALSO* not compliant with the standards. The supposed errors you pointed out are nothing more than work-arounds for non-compliant browsers. Contrary to your claims, those supposed errors do not break anything, instead they actually _FIX_ problems in buggy browsers. Hi. Thanks for your response, JCR. I understand that the errors were committed wilfully, but that doesn't make them any more desirable or good. As an experienced web coder, I can assure you that not only are there ways to code websites validly and correctly that work in buggy browsers (We're probably both talking about IE here) but that this is the preferred and best way to do it among people who spend a great deal of time working on problems such as this. The only way to make sure that HTML code will work for all web browsers now, a year from now, and 4 years from now, is to adhere to the accepted standards. Those standards will be around in 5 years, and will ensure that you don't have to do a redesign every couple years to un-hack and re-hack your old hacks. If you're using a browser that expects valid code, and your feed it invalid code, there is really no way to predict how the invalid code is going to affect your web browser. Sure, it might look cool in a buggy browser like IE, but what about lynx? Firefox? What about Konquerer? What about the next version of Konquerer? Buggy code opens up all sorts of unpredictability. Even if it happens to work now on a couple computers you checked, there's no way to be sure that it works correctly on every computer, or that it will continue to work on every computer in the future. Buggy code is no way to solve a problem. Correct valid code is the way to go. As for the web browsers that are buggy (and I use the term lightly because if a web browser doesn't adhere to the World Wide *Web* standards, then it's not really a *web* browser is it?), there are ways to make your code valid, *and* have them still work in the buggy browsers. That's they way I do it on my websites, and that's the right way to do it. - Jeremy
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 07:18:53AM -0800, the unit calling itself J.C. Roberts wrote: On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:37:56 -0600, J Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 08:24:03AM -0500, the unit calling itself Kenneth R Westerback wrote: And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let the man speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the official OpenBSD bitch, please - let us know. As far as I can recall Theo has already commented once that the website is not going to be redesigned in the forseeable future since it is accomplishing its purposes as laid out by Nick. I doubt that this topic is of sufficient interest to generate multiple comments. Well that's fine - and I assume Nick knows this? So why do you suppose he felt it necessary to jump down the guy's throat? Why not just let it go? That way, Nick could spend his time brushing up on web design instead of wasting it in this fashion? Jay, The answers to your questions are posted all over this list, namely, this frantisek character is very intentionally trolling up a storm and he's done it before in the past. You failed to notice what is really going on around you and you just reacted without thinking. None the less, you owe Nick an apology. Your official OpenBSD bitch comment was not only totally uninformed, it was way out of line. First of all: I don't know frantisek, and I don't know you. Whether he's trolling or not is a matter of opinion - not fact (unless you happen to be The Omniscient Being?). What I've observed leads me to think that the guy is sincere... and I think he's got a sense of humor (ref his comment about Debian-ugly :) And if he is trolling, BOY HOWDY! HE FOUND THE MOTHER LODE ON THIS LIST :) I know of no other list in creation where trolls would find more sport than here. I did think - I actually thought pretty carefully about what I said. I tried to avoid actually *calling* Nick the OpenBSD bitch; instead I asked him if he was. Yeah - it's kind of a fine line... Who are you to question or judge how Nick decides to spend his time? It's obvious you don't bother reading the other stuff around here, so why do you waste your time reading Nicks' posts and insulting him for telling you the truth? Frankly, I don't give two hoots how Nick spends his time. I do believe that everyone will benefit if we can keep the name calling and technical fanaticism to a minimum. This was my only point... what's yours?
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 10:29:43AM -0500, Jeremy David wrote: On 11/28/05, Jason Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I assume it's because Nick is a VOLUNTEER that spends an unlimited amount of time keeping the site updated with CONTENT. He knows that no matter what design changes he wishes to make will undoubtedly be shot down by Theo since the site is already FUNCTIONAL and meets the goals of the project. Well, simply as a matter of fact, it's actually untrue that the site is functional. Functional for you? Maybe. For everyone? Not exactly. Check this out: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openbsd.orgcharset=%28det ect+automatically%29 There are 5 errors on the main page alone. That means that no matter how useful the content on the website is, the code breaks down for a lot of people. NAME ONE. Name one person. Name one browser. Name one problem. OR SHUT UP. Standards are important. Where HTML is concerned, they're doubly so, because there are so many different clients (browsers) being used by so many different kinds of people. This sounds great in theory. Unfortunately, there is no known browser which implements all standards perfectly. If such a browser exists, it isn't in wide use. Validation is NOT sufficient for having a universally usable website. Validation is NOT required for having a universally usable website. Validation is a good idea, But by itself, it solves nothing. I don't care how valid my website is if someone with some browser has trouble reading it. I don't get to jump up and down and say, It is your problem, not mine. On the other hand, if you have to use third-party tools to find a problem with things as they are, you have to wonder about the definition of problem. There are REAL problems on the website, on pages which validate just fine. Which would you have me fix? The problem that causes an issue with rendering in a particular (but important) application? Or the problem that only the validator can see? The really pathetic thing is you aren't naming the real, practical benefits for passing a validator test. http://www.webstandards.org/about/ http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/ I'm really underwhelmed by comments like Why don't you cut the guy some slack and I don't speak for Nick, but I imagine he probably feels a unappreciated when folks feel like nitpicking his design Excusing errors in the interests of not hurting someone's feelings is a great way to end up with a third-rate product. people who do nothing productive do not hurt my feelings. The website is hacky, invalid, and broken. Not to mention the fact that most people think it's ugly. If that hurts someone's feelings then I'm sorry, but it does no one any favors to ignore errors and broken code. If no one is in charge of making sure that the site is good, then someone should be in charge of that. Tell you what. Go fork the project (or at least the website). You can call it WebBSD. Whatever. We got the best website. No validation errors in six years!. Go write your content to whatever standards you wish. YOU will be the one in charge of that. You can do WHATEVER YOU LIKE. Go find yourself content writers and a translation team. Have contests for design, logos, etc. Stick your finger in the wind of public opinion, listen to those who yammer the loudest, come up with solutions that offend the fewest and please the most. And if you have time, put some content out there for others to laugh at. By the way, you will have to make new content for most of your website, as the OpenBSD website it is copyrighted. Writing new content will be good for you, gives you an opportunity to experience the entire work cycle. See who gives a rat's ass. Your goals are not my goals. Your goals are not the project's goals. My goal is to get useful information to the people who need it. Your goal seems to be to stop me, to waste my time dealing with this piddly stuff that DOESN'T MATTER TO ANYONE IN REAL LIFE. Unfortunately, I care about the work I do. I do read (or at least skim) every message (ok, almost every...I've started an ignore list of people who warrent not ever giving a response to) that goes through misc@, looking for a tidbit that might really be significiant. For example, the claim yesterday that the website would not be usable on a Zaurus machine. So, I wasted a lot of time trying to find out what the heck that idiot was talking about. But no, it turns out he made up a non-existent problem to prove a point in a convoluted way that only the poster could appreciate. That was an hour I could have spent doing many more productive things, including some things that would help OpenBSD users. I think these discussions can be considered over. No one is convincing anyone of anything. Nick.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek said that It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd doesn't mean it's right, does it? -f -- bigamy: too many wives. monogamy: see bigamy.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek said that It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd at least remove We welcome new contributors, because that is clearly not true. -f -- the purpose of life is life with a purpose.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On 11/28/05, Jonathan Glaschke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 08:15:00AM -0800, J.C. Roberts wrote: On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:29:43 -0500, Jeremy David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And that's exactly the problem. Creating good html code means to me to look at the stardards released by w3.org and then start coding. The result validates but it won't look the same anywhere. So, you have to fight div-wars and do things that aren't required by w3.org just to make things run. At that point one can see that the web is just broken. Good HTML is _not_ decided by browser, _not_ decided by your screen resolution, _not_ even decided by whether you use a computer or a toaster, it's just platform independend html. So please keep things as they are, there is no better solution. Hi. I appreciate your opinion, Jonathan, but I have to strongly disagree. It is a point of fact that there are better solutions. I implement better solutions all the time - solutions that work in every browser and can be depended upon to not break in the future, or on someone's computer that you hadn't considered, due to hacks that were stuck in the HTML code to hastily cover up some issue with a band-aid in the short-term. The web is not broken just because there are some buggy clients out there. The bugs can be worked around without releasing invalid hacks into the wild. I do it all the time. and it's not because I'm some computer genius. It's possible for openbsd.org to do it too. - Jeremy
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
From: frantisek holop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek said that It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd at least remove We welcome new contributors, because that is clearly not true. Sure, should be something like we welcome worthwhile contributions. Helps enforce the point that just because you think your contribution is meaningful doesn't mean it really is. Why don't people catch on that this isn't a community-driven project? DS
RE: Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek said that It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd doesn't mean it's right, does it? Certainlly doesn't mean it's wrong. Almost certainly means it's OpenBSD What system were you talking about?
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:03:08 +0100 frantisek holop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek said that It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd at least remove We welcome new contributors, because that is clearly not true. That's still true; instead of focusing on the layout of the site, you should focus on adding useful content. Instead of adding _useless_ content to the mailinglist archives :) -f -- the purpose of life is life with a purpose. -- Security is decided by quality -- Theo de Raadt [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On 11/28/05, Eric Faurot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/28/05, Jeremy David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/28/05, Eric Faurot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/28/05, Jeremy David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The website is hacky, invalid, and broken. broken? which page? which browser? Hi. Thanks for joining the conversation, Eric. I appreciate your question, but I believe to cite a particular page which doesn't work as intended on a particular browser would be to miss the point. I just wanted to point that your original argument was wrong. You said fix it because it is broken for people, which is not true. I would say that it is. Broken doesn't necessarily mean that it makes your browser crash. When you look at www.openbsd.org in lynx, every page has a bunch of links at the top that you have to scroll through endlessly in order to get to the content. It looks nice in Firefox, but not in browsers that a lot of people use, especially the kinds of people who want to use OpenBSD. For those people who use lynx, www.openbsd.org is a frustrating challenge to navigate. Similarly for the blind who use a text reader to read them the content on the web page, lists are not identified as such in the code, and therefore someone using an alternative way of getting information from the web can't find what they're looking for without a lot of frustration. Saying that it works for me OK right now is simply not good enough. I fully agree. When that happens, action will be taken by someone who decides it is then a priority. Well, I believe that fixing it right the first time will save you some panic and further problems in the future. The idea has been mentioned in this thread that it's too difficult to make websites work in multiple browsers and still be valid. That idea is simply incorrect. Here's an example. http://www.cerealport.com/?p=8 I believe that fixing it now will get the content of openbsd.org, which is superb, into the minds of everyone who is looking for it, now and in the future. - Jeremy
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 12:35:57PM -0501, Nick Holland said that NAME ONE. Name one person. Name one browser. Name one problem. OR SHUT UP. so small problems or quirks are not problems anymore? honestly Nick, go compare the code to the pages and you should blush. Validation is NOT sufficient for having a universally usable website. Validation is NOT required for having a universally usable website. the openbsd site uses pictures and text. the 2 simplest elements in existence. and you can't make the page validate thank god you don't have to do anything more complicated. these pages are from being complicated yet you fail to make them simpler because you hate html. a person who loves html wouldn't do such things to it you are doing. I don't care how valid my website is if someone with some browser has trouble reading it. that's why you shouldn't be making html pages. everyone and his dog can make pages. but making correct pages takes effort. the pages on the openbsd site are the same html quality as the howto's you just ridiculed. definition of problem. There are REAL problems on the website, on pages which validate just fine. Which would you have me fix? The I AM SENDING YOU THE PATCHES. does it take hours to commit them? nobody asks any extra work from you or the team. while you read the flame war here (but ignoring some of us) you could have already commit the fixes. noone will flame you for making the pages validate. The really pathetic thing is you aren't naming the real, practical benefits for passing a validator test. i tell you what, take it as lint for web pages. it will make you feel warm and fuzzy if nothing else. you see, the other devs _do_ use lint because they want their C to be perfect. Go fork the project (or at least the website). You can call it WebBSD. Whatever. We got the best website. No validation errors in six years!. Go write your content to whatever standards you wish. YOU will be the one in charge of that. You can do WHATEVER YOU LIKE. you are clearly taking this personally. Go find yourself content writers and a translation team. Have contests for design, logos, etc. Stick your finger in the wind of public how would fixing the damn errors slow down the tranlastors please tell me? how would a new design slow them down? tell me or shut up. every message (ok, almost every...I've started an ignore list of people who warrent not ever giving a response to) that goes through misc@, i guess i made your list. it is very unfortunate from all of you who think i am simply flaming. i am trying to solve a problem the others think is not there. it's peanuts they say. i wouldn't care an inch if this was linux. but openbsd is perfectionalist except it's face on the internet. not so open after all. is it? -f -- dogmatism: puppyism come to its full growth.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
Hi, This is getting real old. _CONTENT_IS_KING_ nothing else matters here. As Nick said it is about functionality. This .org is not about winning any website design awards.. It is about the OS goals set by Theo of OpenBSD. Browsers do whatever it is their developers/corps decide always writing what benefits their end game. Regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:27:56 -0600, J Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did think - I actually thought pretty carefully about what I said. I tried to avoid actually *calling* Nick the OpenBSD bitch; instead I asked him if he was. Yeah - it's kind of a fine line... Have you given up molesting children? Please pardon the above question because it is unfair. I really meant no offense by it or the insinuation it implies but hopefully it will allow you to see there is no fine line. Who are you to question or judge how Nick decides to spend his time? It's obvious you don't bother reading the other stuff around here, so why do you waste your time reading Nicks' posts and insulting him for telling you the truth? Frankly, I don't give two hoots how Nick spends his time. I do believe that everyone will benefit if we can keep the name calling and technical fanaticism to a minimum. This was my only point... Then you, rather intentionally, failed at reaching your goal. what's yours? I wish you would pay closer attention to what you are doing on this list and what others do here. -- JCR
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On 11/28/05, Nick Holland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: NAME ONE. Name one person. Name one browser. Name one problem. OR SHUT UP. I believe I've mentioned several problems in this thread which occur with several browsers. I suppose that I had hoped that the OpenBSD team would greet new ideas with respect when respectfully discussed. I didn't expect anyone to automatically agree with me, but I was hoping for a civil conversation, not from list members at large, but at least from the OpenBSD team. I guess that was too much to hope for. This conversation, at least on my end, is over. No wonder people hate OpenBSD nerds. Really. What were you expecting me to say? Your status as an OpenBSD team leader and your ALL CAPS have convinced me? I expected that kind of behavior from random list members, but if this is the kind of nonsensical, childing thinking and behavior that goes on in the OpenBSD team, I don't know what to think about the quality of the product right now. - Jeremy
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On 29/11/2005, at 4:47 AM, frantisek holop wrote: hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek said that It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd doesn't mean it's right, does it? The OpenBSD project does not fix the broken browsers which visit the site, so they fix the site instead, when required. I think it is just as likely that the site could be made 100% compliant and then a future browser is further broken in some way, requiring another fix to the site. So why not just address an issue when it actually becomes one? Seems practical to me. Shane J Pearson
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)]
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 01:07:02PM -0500, Jeremy David wrote: On 11/28/05, Jonathan Glaschke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 08:15:00AM -0800, J.C. Roberts wrote: On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:29:43 -0500, Jeremy David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And that's exactly the problem. Creating good html code means to me to look at the stardards released by w3.org and then start coding. The result validates but it won't look the same anywhere. So, you have to fight div-wars and do things that aren't required by w3.org just to make things run. At that point one can see that the web is just broken. Good HTML is _not_ decided by browser, _not_ decided by your screen resolution, _not_ even decided by whether you use a computer or a toaster, it's just platform independend html. So please keep things as they are, there is no better solution. Hi. I appreciate your opinion, Jonathan, but I have to strongly disagree. It is a point of fact that there are better solutions. I implement better solutions all the time - solutions that work in every browser and can be depended upon to not break in the future, or on someone's computer that you hadn't considered, due to hacks that were stuck in the HTML code to hastily cover up some issue with a band-aid in the short-term. The web is not broken just because there are some buggy clients out there. The bugs can be worked around without releasing invalid hacks into the wild. I do it all the time. and it's not because I'm some computer genius. It's possible for openbsd.org to do it too. - Jeremy But thats the point, you do it because of browsers. What browsers? There are no browsers in HTML, it's browser independend. But life shows that it isn't. Thats where the dirtyness starts. Clear, you can keep your sites valid and have a good result in most (every?) browser but i really dont like the discussion about writting html that fits a browser, it has to fix only what w3.org says. I know thats not the way things work, thats only how things should work, but thats my reason for not to like this html/xhtml/css staff. Content matters! Next to me is one pound instant ice tee. It's ugly packaged, it has an ugly and outfashioned corparate logo. But I still like it's content, because it tastes well. It's the same with the content of openbsd.org, and because i like the content, i don't want to miss the rest. And hey, out design isnt that bad, its just out of fashion. And it is very functional! Jonathan -- | /\ ASCII Ribbon | Jonathan Glaschke - Lorenz-Goertz-Stra_e 71, | \ / Campaign Against | 41238 Moenchengladbach, Germany; | XHTML In Mail | jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | / \ And News | http://jonathan-glaschke.de/
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On 13:28 Mon 28 Nov, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They welcome contributers. You are not a contributor. And it won't become one because of all the people on this mailing lists with such attitude. -- http://coastaldisturbance.com/
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 07:03:08PM +0100, frantisek holop wrote: hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek said that It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd at least remove We welcome new contributors, because that is clearly not true. -f -- the purpose of life is life with a purpose. scnr: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.obiit.org http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=www.obiit.org Tobias
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
Hi Nick, On 29/11/2005, at 4:36 AM, Nick Holland wrote: Unfortunately, I care about the work I do. I do read (or at least skim) every message (ok, almost every...I've started an ignore list of people who warrent not ever giving a response to) that goes through misc@, looking for a tidbit that might really be significiant. It's funny you should mention this. Just recently, for the first time in about 14 years, I was provoked into starting a Twit List due to some complete fool in this list. It seems I have some updating to do. I mostly read misc@ for the interesting discussions, however there has been an annoying amount of worthless chest beating lately. Like a gorilla, it seems to be all show. Shane J Pearson
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
I think he did, too. That's why I don't understand Nick insulting the guy, and bashing his ideas. Clearly Nick's opinions don't mesh, but why would he pursue this cross-thread vendetta? The only result of this sort of behavior is that a potential contributor is alienated. You say contributor, I haven't seen any diff yet however. As for Nick, from my own experience in public and private, he his one of the nicest guy on the list, cut the guy some slack will you, until you walk in his place, I don't see the point here. Seems what someone would learn from watching the mailing lists and reading these acrimonious threads is that outsiders are not welcome, and new ideas are not tolerated. This is illogical: if different ideas are unwelcome, and not to be tolerated, then why isn't this list taken off-line? There is a lots to be learn from the list yes and outsider as you call it are welcome when they contribute! Making endless talks is not contributing to the contrary as you may think. Ideas are coming as code or diff. So, anyone that want to contribute, write it and send it in and see if that will be accepted or not. If it is good, it will, if not, then I know I wrote crap. That's how it work! I read once an interview with a few developers, in it, I saw many reference to httpd been a real tortures to work with and need big time cleanup! I send a private email to Henning as my search indicated to me that he was the one managing it, kind of anyway. The help I got, and response from him was great! I couldn't have asked for more! And believe me, he is busy, but he took the time to guide me! So, if you really think outsider are not welcome, just try to do something for a change and send it in and see where it will get you. You might be surprise of it
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On 11/28/05, Eric Faurot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/28/05, Jeremy David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The idea has been mentioned in this thread that it's too difficult to make websites work in multiple browsers and still be valid. That idea is simply incorrect. Here's an example. http://www.cerealport.com/?p=8 - the white text is difficult to read because of the lack of constrast with the image in background. Well, I was referring to the content of the website, which is one example of how to solve an inter-operability problem. However, your point about the look is valid and good. - why do I have to click on the menu entry to expand them? what about the accessibility? That website is accessible to a blind person using lynx and text to speech software. The expanding menus only work that way in browsers that support it. If you try to use it in another situation, it will degrade gracefully. I don't believe that it hinders anyone's accessibility, because the website behaves differently in different browsers without any hacks or any special software required. I believe that's one of the strengths of valid HTML/CSS coding. - the overal look is not much better than the openbsd site. Again, valid point. Maybe even a good one. I believe that fixing it now will get the content of openbsd.org, which is superb, into the minds of everyone who is looking for it, now and in the future. It also conforts people who think all that glitters is gold, instead of encouraging critical thinking. Perhaps I should clarify. My point has never been that all websites should be visually stunning. My point is that good design degrades gracefully for anyone using any browser, and makes the information easy to find, not difficult. Good design also will not rely on hacks which will cause unpredictable behavior now and in the future. I don't think any experienced programmer would want to rely on hacks in C code. Why should HTML be any different when it doesn't need to be? - Jeremy
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
frantisek holop 28-Nov-05 18:03 hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek said that It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd at least remove We welcome new contributors, because that is clearly not true. It is true. Off the top of my head I can think of three (relatively) new committers who primarily contribute to the web site. They do good stuff (well done, you guys). Stop lying on the list Tom
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
Yes, Stop this flame fest, please. I think all the misc@ readers are tired. -David On 11/28/05, Paul Greene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the OpenBSD team is extremely focused on what they do best, writing good code, and these irrelevant sideshows on things that don't matter is incredibly annoying.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On 11/28/05, Sime Ramov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13:28 Mon 28 Nov, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They welcome contributers. You are not a contributor. And it won't become one because of all the people on this mailing lists with such attitude. -- http://coastaldisturbance.com/ Neither will I. I was actually halfway through a html/css contribution until Nick, the maintainer to whom I would have submitted it, began a conversation and a relationship with me by telling me to SHUT UP. I'm not going to get involved in a working relationship with someone who behaves in such an infantile manner. If he's going to greet my ideas and work with SHUT UP why in the world would I take hours and hours to write code for him, only to be met with more of that? - Jeremy
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
Tobias Ulmer wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 07:03:08PM +0100, frantisek holop wrote: hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek said that It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd at least remove We welcome new contributors, because that is clearly not true. -f -- the purpose of life is life with a purpose. scnr: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.obiit.org http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=www.obiit.org Tobias HAHAHA Holy shit that's funny!!! frantisek holop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the openbsd site uses pictures and text. the 2 simplest elements in existence. and you can't make the page validate thank god you don't have to do anything more complicated. Yours doesn't even have the pictures. Thank god you don't have to do anything more complicated. And about your content there on your page... A+
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
Just for the record, there are many, many silent users that have used OpenBSD and followed misc@ and other OpenBSD lists for years and years that are getting really tired of the handful of common users that keep clogging up these lists with total shit. While I feel people like me should read rather than post opinions and requests for change on this list, I'm so tired with non-devs making STUPID posts that make it seem as all non-devs are total morons that don't deserve support or even to run this OS. However, my request is a new mailing list for these people. I think we need [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not in the I.T. industry but use it for a home router/firewall as a learning experience. I'm so, so happy with the way things are run that I just had to post this. Nick or anybody else that seems closed to input is 100% correct in my opinion on this and other recent issues. Not because I'm trying to kiss up, nobody here knows who the hell I am, or could care less... and that's the way it should be! When you get a reply of something to the effect of it's the way it's going to be perhaps, that's why this project is better than the others. If you don't feel it is better, then why are you wasting your time with an OS that's sub-standard? You're not trying to make things better by doing this; you're trying to gain attention/respect in a way that is non-deserving in the eyes of this poster. Put up or shut up doesn't mean to clog the system with un-needed crap that you think will gain you points. This anger is the result of many, many threads that have appeared lately and not in any why just a reply to this one. End of rant. Mike
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On 28/11/05, Jeremy David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/28/05, Eric Faurot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/28/05, Jeremy David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The idea has been mentioned in this thread that it's too difficult to make websites work in multiple browsers and still be valid. That idea is simply incorrect. Here's an example. http://www.cerealport.com/?p=8 - the white text is difficult to read because of the lack of constrast with the image in background. Well, I was referring to the content of the website, which is one example of how to solve an inter-operability problem. However, your point about the look is valid and good. - why do I have to click on the menu entry to expand them? what about the accessibility? That website is accessible to a blind person using lynx and text to speech software. The expanding menus only work that way in browsers that support it. If you try to use it in another situation, it will degrade gracefully. I don't believe that it hinders anyone's accessibility, because the website behaves differently in different browsers without any hacks or any special software required. I believe that's one of the strengths of valid HTML/CSS coding. I'm using a mozilla 1.7 browser, with CSS on, JavaScript off. The menus on the referenced cerealport.com web-site don't expand at all (they're just javascript links). It follows that the design does not degrade gracefully. Period. The referenced .com web-site is not accessible, it is _actually_, not just hypothetically, broken. End of discussion. Constantine.
RE: Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 10:53:45AM -0800, the unit calling itself J.C. Roberts wrote: I would assume that J.C. Roberts is a human, not a unit, whatever that is supposed to imply. On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:27:56 -0600, J Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did think - I actually thought pretty carefully about what I said. I tried to avoid actually *calling* Nick the OpenBSD bitch; instead I asked him if he was. Yeah - it's kind of a fine line... Have you given up molesting children? Ummm - I'm sorry, but you score no points with that boinked analogy here Are you now the official representative of stupid and useless tolls? Better analogy? because you've changed context. If you care to read the opening salvo again, you should see clearly that Nick threw the first punch... he simply couldn't let the other thread go; he simply couldn't let the OP try to organize something; he had to jump in and start trashing the whole idea. You may have lost the whole point of this by now. Jay There never was a point. Nick just called it earlier that most everybody else.
RE: Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm using a mozilla 1.7 browser, with CSS on, JavaScript off. And it doesn't run javascript. Outside my area of expertise, but that seems normal somehow. The menus on the referenced cerealport.com web-site don't expand at http://cerealport.com does not answer http://www.cerealport.com does answer, but how is it supposed to be related to OpenBSD. Looks like another attempt to look good and succeeds only in being disfunctional. End of discussion. Promises, promises.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 11:29:36AM -0700, the unit calling itself Spruell, Darren-Perot wrote: From: frantisek holop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek said that It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd at least remove We welcome new contributors, because that is clearly not true. Sure, should be something like we welcome worthwhile contributions. Helps enforce the point that just because you think your contribution is meaningful doesn't mean it really is. Why don't people catch on that this isn't a community-driven project? DS If you're not community-driven, then please explain why you have a product offered to the community, and a public forum that is in the community. Also please explain how you avoid the apparent hypocrisy of soliciting contributions from the community, and then in the next breath tell the community that they're irrelevant. And what were your expectations when you joined a project that produced a product that real users from the community were going to use? And that the community's opinions and criticisms of this product would be discussed in an open forum? Did you expect that the community would all get starry-eyed, and say to you, Oh! It's everything I dreamed of; it's perfect! Thank you, I can think of nothing more to add. Why don't you catch on that this is not how the world works?
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:29:43 -0500 Jeremy David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/28/05, Jason Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openbsd.orgcharset=%28det ect+automatically%29 There are 5 errors on the main page alone. And this is a *real* problem how? Does it break in any browser used in 2005? On the other hand, those errors seem fairly trivial so why dont you send Nick a diff so he can apply it, providing it doesnt break the actual usability if the site? The website is hacky, invalid, and broken. Not to mention the fact that most people think it's ugly. If that hurts someone's feelings then I'm sorry, but it does no one any favors to ignore errors and broken code. I dont think it's ugly and it works with every browser I've ever used with it. It's a hell lot better than most professional corporate sites. Lars Lansson
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 08:30:05PM -0600, J Moore wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 11:29:36AM -0700, the unit calling itself Spruell, Darren-Perot wrote: From: frantisek holop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] hmm, on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 05:32:54PM +0100, Otto Moerbeek said that It's even a FAQ: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#wwwnotstd at least remove We welcome new contributors, because that is clearly not true. Sure, should be something like we welcome worthwhile contributions. Helps enforce the point that just because you think your contribution is meaningful doesn't mean it really is. Why don't people catch on that this isn't a community-driven project? DS If you're not community-driven, then please explain why you have a product offered to the community, and a public forum that is in the community. because one can step out of the community and into the developers group. BTW, this is not done by posting to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Also please explain how you avoid the apparent hypocrisy of soliciting contributions from the community, and then in the next breath tell the community that they're irrelevant. the difference between driven and irrelevant is quite large. this type of distortion is quite the mark of a troll. And what were your expectations when you joined a project that produced a product that real users from the community were going to use? And that the community's opinions and criticisms of this product would be discussed in an open forum? who is actually stopping you from your discussion? they may be telling, asking, and begging you to give it up, but obviously, it is not stopping you. Did you expect that the community would all get starry-eyed, and say to you, Oh! It's everything I dreamed of; it's perfect! Thank you, I can think of nothing more to add. no one is telling you not to make suggestions. they may be telling you to give up on a discussion that isn't going anywhere, though. Why don't you catch on that this is not how the world works? what is not the way the world works? every point that has been made in this discussion has been given it's due consideration, and I still have not seen a single line of diff from anyone in this discussion, but lots and lots of vagueness and trollesque accusations from the community. yeah, great community. this is how the world works: ignore the whiners, they offer nothing useful. either the whiners will realize their folly and actually do something useful or they will continue to whine. maybe they will do something they think is useful, but ultimately it isn't and will be rejected. now, they can go back to whining about how their work is rejected, or they can realize their folly and again go back to trying to do something useful, etc, etc. eventually, they will decide to just be a whiner, or they will do something useful. BTW, deciding to quit whining _is_ doing something useful. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
Jacob Meuser wrote: this is how the world works: ignore the whiners, they offer nothing useful. Some irresistable straight lines?
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
frantisek holop wrote: dear list, before Theo brings up the (very) valid point of haven't been able to see any proposed design (even if rejected without looking) i would like to ask fellow designers or anyone who feels like to make an openbsd site design proposal just to show that actually there is interest in making the old pages retire after so many years of faithful serving. i am willing to host all the participants' efforts as a central repository, or even only links to these pages. make some noise people, so we can say at least we tried. -f Like FreeBSD and NetBSD's redesign our web site contest. Riiight.. No. We've spent way too much time laughing at those already (both the process and the results). You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored. OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project. I think a lot of people miss this. If there is ONE THING that distinguishes OpenBSD from most other OSs out there, it is the fact that OpenBSD is the work of a small group of people following the lead of *one* person. There is no question of direction, there is no five different products to accomplish same task, because we don't have the guts to make a decision and endorse just one. As has been pointed out repeatedly, OpenBSD developers develop the OS for their own use. If your uses are compatible with the developer's goals, OpenBSD is for you. If not, you quickly realize not to waste your time. You don't see OpenBSD flopping around without a clear direction. You don't end up wondering, will they change directions to meet my goals, or will they abandon my goals?. If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be restructured. If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if something other than one of two things were to happen: 1) Theo rebuilds it and says, here's the new design. 2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the result and says, here is the new design (or rips someone's head off). Committee design is NOT what we are about. You don't see contests for CD designs or release themes. Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company. Our product is not a super-cool website. Our product is an OS we need and use. The website is just an information source about the product, maintained by software developers and documenters. When I write material to help other people with similar interests use OpenBSD, I'm not worried about if it uses the features of the best of the current crop of browsers, I want to get the information across effectively. I measure my success based on the information conveyed, not how pretty it is. I have reason to believe I do a half-way decent job at this. If someone wishes to prove they can do a better job, go for it, I'm sure Theo would love to have a more productive person doing what I do (and what he would like me to do that I'll never have time for). I won't fight it. I have not been bored in well over 20 years, I have NO problem occupying my time. BTW: quality of work will be judged on content, not style. Nick.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
Why don't you cut the guy some slack - or at least shut your yap on this (puh-l-e-e-e-ze)? I don't see *any* of what you're claiming to be OpenBSD policy stated on the website. In fact I see a statement (somewhat) to the contrary: Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the basis of technical merit. And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let the man speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the official OpenBSD bitch, please - let us know. Jay On Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:03:19PM -0500, the unit calling itself Nick Holland wrote: frantisek holop wrote: dear list, before Theo brings up the (very) valid point of haven't been able to see any proposed design (even if rejected without looking) i would like to ask fellow designers or anyone who feels like to make an openbsd site design proposal just to show that actually there is interest in making the old pages retire after so many years of faithful serving. i am willing to host all the participants' efforts as a central repository, or even only links to these pages. make some noise people, so we can say at least we tried. -f Like FreeBSD and NetBSD's redesign our web site contest. Riiight.. No. We've spent way too much time laughing at those already (both the process and the results). You can do what you want, but your work will be ignored. OpenBSD is NOT a committee-run OS project. I think a lot of people miss this. If there is ONE THING that distinguishes OpenBSD from most other OSs out there, it is the fact that OpenBSD is the work of a small group of people following the lead of *one* person. There is no question of direction, there is no five different products to accomplish same task, because we don't have the guts to make a decision and endorse just one. As has been pointed out repeatedly, OpenBSD developers develop the OS for their own use. If your uses are compatible with the developer's goals, OpenBSD is for you. If not, you quickly realize not to waste your time. You don't see OpenBSD flopping around without a clear direction. You don't end up wondering, will they change directions to meet my goals, or will they abandon my goals?. If or when Theo decides the web site should be restructured, it will be restructured. If/when that happens, I would be very surprised if something other than one of two things were to happen: 1) Theo rebuilds it and says, here's the new design. 2) Theo hires/selects ONE PERSON to redesign it, and looks at the result and says, here is the new design (or rips someone's head off). Committee design is NOT what we are about. You don't see contests for CD designs or release themes. Contrary to what some people think, we are not a web-design company. Our product is not a super-cool website. Our product is an OS we need and use. The website is just an information source about the product, maintained by software developers and documenters. When I write material to help other people with similar interests use OpenBSD, I'm not worried about if it uses the features of the best of the current crop of browsers, I want to get the information across effectively. I measure my success based on the information conveyed, not how pretty it is. I have reason to believe I do a half-way decent job at this. If someone wishes to prove they can do a better job, go for it, I'm sure Theo would love to have a more productive person doing what I do (and what he would like me to do that I'll never have time for). I won't fight it. I have not been bored in well over 20 years, I have NO problem occupying my time. BTW: quality of work will be judged on content, not style. Nick.
Re: openbsd web site design proposals (from HOTO write bad docs)
On Monday 28 November 2005 01:33, J Moore wrote: Why don't you cut the guy some slack - or at least shut your yap on this (puh-l-e-e-e-ze)? I don't see *any* of what you're claiming to be OpenBSD policy stated on the website. In fact I see a statement (somewhat) to the contrary: Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the basis of technical merit. And if it's the one-man show you claim, why don't you let the man speak for himself? Or if you've been hired as the official OpenBSD bitch, please - let us know. Jay Jay, I would think that the lack of response from Theo should say something. I agree with Nick; functionality over form *any* day. The current web site is quite reasonable I think. Could it be improved? Probably. But the site is still very good, and I for one would rather see the project move along the way it has been. I know the person who posted the original question has the best of intentions, but I don't think he quite understands how things work. And no, there probably isn't a statement of exactly how things work. Watching the mailing lists is the way to learn. I think that *is* stated on the site. --STeve Andre'
