Re: [mb-style] SoundCloud URL relationships
Just realized other thing we need to add this to: labels. http://soundcloud.com/electricminds http://soundcloud.com/mobilee-records (it's relatively common) On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Simon Reinhardt simon.reinha...@koeln.de wrote: Hi, I was wondering which relationship types to use for relating artists and recordings to SoundCloud URLs (http://soundcloud.com/). Nikki was so kind to query the existing usage of types for these URLs for me. :-) artists: biography | 1 discography | 11 download for free | 63 fanpage | 4 myspace | 1 official homepage | 15 online community | 47 purchase for download | 3 social network | 43 streaming music | 72 recordings: creative commons licensed download | 3 download for free | 37 streaming music | 46 As you can see it's rather messy for artists at the moment and I think it needs some form of standardising or at least cleaning up. A bit about the site: In their own words SoundCloud is a platform that puts your sound at the heart of communities, websites and even apps. Watch conversations, connections and social experiences happen, with your sound as the spark. Artists can create profiles where they can upload tracks. Apparently you can offer tracks only for streaming or also for downloading, and you can CC-licence them. It also has social network / online community aspects (followers, groups, comments (even within tracks), favourites, sending messages etc.). So for artist-URL relationships all three of social networking, download music for free and stream for free seem suitable (but I'd rather not see the class types get the music and online communities be used). Since the site is mainly about getting the music I would lean towards relationships from that class but on the other hand: an artist can offer all of their tracks for streaming only, all of them for downloading as well or some for streaming only and some for downloading as well. And we can't deny the social/community aspect. For those reasons, do you think SoundCloud deserves an artist-URL relationship type of its own? And if so, which class would you put it under? On to recordings: All tracks that have been uploaded will always be available for streaming so as a general type that will always work. But if something's also available for download I'd rather want to see that used because being able to download music is better than just being able to stream it. And if something's offered under a CC licence I'd use the CC relationship type. In my eyes it's quite clear what to use for recordings and we don't need a new type. What do you think? Oh and: You can also create sets of tracks and I have seen them used as folders for albums - so maybe we'd want to relate set URLs to release groups in some cases? Cheers, Simon ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Capitalisation of ‘from’, ‘with’, etc.
Hi, my name is Piotr and I’m new to this list; I learned about MusicBrainz some time ago and finally got to filtering most of my music through Picard. Thanks a lot for your work on this great service! I’m writing because in my spree on capitalisation fixing I went too far and changed ‘Music From Siesta’ to ‘Music from Siesta’, assuming that uppercased ‘from’ is an obvious mistake. I was quickly corrected at http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14638851 (thanks, jacobbrett!) and it was suggested that I ask here first. I tried looking through the list archives, but they’re not really very navigable, so apologies if it was settled already (please tell me if so, I’ll go looking more closely): should ‘from’, ‘with’ and other four‐letter prepositions be capitalised or not? http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Language/English says ‘“from”, “into”, “onto”, and “with” are common and almost always used as prepositions, so there is a rather good case for including them [on the lower‐cased list’, but they’re not on the list; to the best of my knowledge most of style guides (such as http://aitech.ac.jp/~ckelly/midi/help/caps.html which I’ve been using for years) say ‘from’ et al. should be lowercased. So, my question is whether this was decided already, and if so in which direction? — Piotr Szotkowski -- Normaliser Unix c’est comme pasteuriser le camembert. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Use of ‘fancy’ punctuation characters
Yeah, me again. Still most grateful fot MusicBrainz. :) While I was on a recent Picard-powered metadata-cleanup spree on my music I noticed http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Miscellaneous saying that ‘typographically-correct punctuation is preferred’, so I started updating MB with my local fixes to punctuation (such as replacing U+0027 APOSTROPHE with U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK). Is this welcome or just a noise to the MB database? If it’s welcome, how far should it be taken? Replacing U+0027 with U+2019 (where appropriate) seems to fit the spirit of the guide, but what about replacing U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS with U+2010 HYPHEN, such as in renaming Ska-P to Ska‐P and New York Ska-Jazzi Ensemble to New York Ska‐Jazz Ensemble? — Piotr Szotkowski -- It’s like Thermopylae divided by 300. [Oglaf] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Use of ‘fancy’ punctuation characters
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:53, Piotr Szotkowski chast...@chastell.net wrote: Yeah, me again. Still most grateful fot MusicBrainz. :) While I was on a recent Picard-powered metadata-cleanup spree on my music I noticed http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Miscellaneous saying that ‘typographically-correct punctuation is preferred’, so I started updating MB with my local fixes to punctuation (such as replacing U+0027 APOSTROPHE with U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK). Is this welcome or just a noise to the MB database? If it’s welcome, how far should it be taken? Replacing U+0027 with U+2019 (where appropriate) seems to fit the spirit of the guide, but what about replacing U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS with U+2010 HYPHEN, such as in renaming Ska-P to Ska‐P and New York Ska-Jazzi Ensemble to New York Ska‐Jazz Ensemble? Personally, I don't think there's any utility in replacing characters which could be done with a script. Only if there's some kind of judgement call involved does it really make any sense. Cleaning up only some releases will just leave things in a seemingly inconsistent state, so I'd really prefer if any changes of this nature were made database-wide if they're going to be made at all. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Capitalisation of ‘from’, ‘with’, etc.
Piotr Szotkowski wrote: So, my question is whether this was decided already, and if so in which direction? Technically, yes, it was decided a long time ago (section 2c says Short prepositions (three letters or less)). Guidelines can be changed though... Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Use of ‘fancy’ punctuation characters
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Philip Jägenstedt phi...@foolip.org wrote: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:53, Piotr Szotkowski chast...@chastell.net wrote: Yeah, me again. Still most grateful fot MusicBrainz. :) While I was on a recent Picard-powered metadata-cleanup spree on my music I noticed http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Miscellaneous saying that ‘typographically-correct punctuation is preferred’, so I started updating MB with my local fixes to punctuation (such as replacing U+0027 APOSTROPHE with U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK). Is this welcome or just a noise to the MB database? If it’s welcome, how far should it be taken? Replacing U+0027 with U+2019 (where appropriate) seems to fit the spirit of the guide, but what about replacing U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS with U+2010 HYPHEN, such as in renaming Ska-P to Ska‐P and New York Ska-Jazzi Ensemble to New York Ska‐Jazz Ensemble? Personally, I don't think there's any utility in replacing characters which could be done with a script. Only if there's some kind of judgement call involved does it really make any sense. Cleaning up only some releases will just leave things in a seemingly inconsistent state, so I'd really prefer if any changes of this nature were made database-wide if they're going to be made at all. I think the aposthrophe fix (and also fixing ellipses) are OK even without a script, although I'd love to have a ellipses-fixing bot. The hyphen thing is harder, because AFAIK there's no way to actually see the difference (at least in the standard font MB uses) so they're kinda hard to vote on anyway. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Use of ‘fancy’ punctuation characters
Personally, I don't think there's any utility in replacing characters which could be done with a script. Only if there's some kind of judgement call involved does it really make any sense. Cleaning up only some releases will just leave things in a seemingly inconsistent state, so I'd really prefer if any changes of this nature were made database-wide if they're going to be made at all. I don't think that's a reason to avoid doing that clean-up. You'll get that inconsistent state anyway, since newly entered releases will (preferably) be entered with U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK for example. I'd rather think that the more edits like that are made the sooner someone will get around to doing a script that takes care of obvious cases instead. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Use of ‘fancy’ punctuation characters
At least Bogdan Butnaru has planned to write typography assisting software. See http://musicbrainz-mailing-lists.2986109.n2.nabble.com/Mechanically-assisted-updating-of-typography-on-MusicBrainz-td5978214.html from early this year. song's title → song’s title a 'quoted' text → a ‘quoted’ text in the '90s → in the ’90s rock 'n' roll → rock ’n’ roll And since actual use often is erroneous for apostrophe at the beginning, with spellings like Rock ‘n’ Roll (I've given examples in http://musicbrainz-mailing-lists.2986109.n2.nabble.com/Ellipses-quotation-marks-and-the-miscellaneous-guideline-td5734079i20.html#a5769484 ) I think a style guide should explicitly mention if that should be corrected (my opinion) or not. The hyphen thing is harder, because AFAIK there's no way to actually see the difference (at least in the standard font MB uses) so they're kinda hard to vote on anyway. Hopefully these will become autoedits anyway. My preference is that if you enter titles and names with ambiguous ASCII characters there should somewhere on the screen appear something like The character - is ambigous. It is usually a hyphen for hyphenated words, but sometimes a dash or a minus sign. If you are unsure just leave it as it is. [hyphen] [en dash] [em dash] [minus] ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-322: Performed relationship type attributes
Nikki-3 wrote: jacobbrett wrote: Should Too Many Puppies / Master of Puppets [1] (where a portion of MoP is played as an interlude in the middle of TMP) be attributed as: Too Many Puppies / Master of Puppets is a performance of Too Many Puppies Too Many Puppies / Master of Puppets is a partial performance of Master of Puppets ...or as a medley? Does this need to be clarified before an RFV can be sent, or would it be fine either way? (It's been more than a week now so in theory one could be sent) Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style I think it's okay for the RFV to proceed, though I would like to resolve an answer for these sort of recordings/performances and have such an example inserted into the page at some point in the near future, if possible. +1 -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-322-Performed-relationship-type-attributes-tp3577088p3602387.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] SoundCloud URL relationships
Simon Reinhardt wrote: Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote: On to recordings: All tracks that have been uploaded will always be available for streaming so as a general type that will always work. But if something's also available for download I'd rather want to see that used because being able to download music is better than just being able to stream it. And if something's offered under a CC licence I'd use the CC relationship type. In my eyes it's quite clear what to use for recordings and we don't need a new type. What do you think? I can agree with this. Although it's possible (and kinda common) to limit the number of downloads (for example, 100 free downloads) and leave it as just a streaming afterwards… Ah, I didn't know that. Is that N free downloads overall (first come, first served) or per user? I believe it's on a first-come, first-served basis. Oh and: You can also create sets of tracks and I have seen them used as folders for albums - so maybe we'd want to relate set URLs to release groups in some cases? I would link them to releases, not release groups. Although we maybe could use the same stuff as for recordings there. Why releases rather than release groups? I think that with releases being as specific as they are now a set in SoundCloud would apply to many different releases. Not all of them maybe though... Regards, Simon ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/SoundCloud-URL-relationships-tp3593834p3602393.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Use of ‘fancy’ punctuation characters
Piotr Szotkowski wrote: The problem with apostrophes is that it’s not trivial to script the replacement: And that's only English... I would probably not go as far as using the hyphen character, I've seen reports that it's not available in the standard fonts in Windows, e.g. http://bugs.musicbrainz.org/ticket/5844 Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Use of ‘fancy’ punctuation characters
Per Starbäck wrote: At least Bogdan Butnaru has planned to write typography assisting software. See http://musicbrainz-mailing-lists.2986109.n2.nabble.com/Mechanically-assisted-updating-of-typography-on-MusicBrainz-td5978214.html from early this year. song's title → song’s title a 'quoted' text → a ‘quoted’ text in the '90s → in the ’90s rock 'n' roll → rock ’n’ roll And since actual use often is erroneous for apostrophe at the beginning, with spellings like Rock ‘n’ Roll (I've given examples in http://musicbrainz-mailing-lists.2986109.n2.nabble.com/Ellipses-quotation-marks-and-the-miscellaneous-guideline-td5734079i20.html#a5769484 ) I think a style guide should explicitly mention if that should be corrected (my opinion) or not. The hyphen thing is harder, because AFAIK there's no way to actually see the difference (at least in the standard font MB uses) so they're kinda hard to vote on anyway. Hopefully these will become autoedits anyway. My preference is that if you enter titles and names with ambiguous ASCII characters there should somewhere on the screen appear something like The character - is ambigous. It is usually a hyphen for hyphenated words, but sometimes a dash or a minus sign. If you are unsure just leave it as it is. [hyphen] [en dash] [em dash] [minus] ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style Hmm, I've considered doing so before, and I may give it an attempt soon; a Greasemonkey script that notifies the editor with a bubble, similar to the current info-bubbles that appear next to each field. Also, to anybody interested, Hawke and I created a table of correct, replacement punctuation here: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Jacobbrett/English_Punctuation_Guide -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Use-of-fancy-punctuation-characters-tp3602123p3602409.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Capitalisation of ‘from’, ‘with’, etc.
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:18 AM, Nikki aei...@gmail.com wrote: Piotr Szotkowski wrote: So, my question is whether this was decided already, and if so in which direction? Technically, yes, it was decided a long time ago (section 2c says Short prepositions (three letters or less)). Guidelines can be changed though... Nikki The problem is if we say capitalize prepositions four letters or shorter, there's a few frequently-occurring words that can function as prepositions or something else depending on how they're used. Take the problems we see with words like out, off, on and as. If we raise the bar to four letters, it opens the door to words like over, next, near, like, down, past, than, thru -- Titles with Words Like Those Will Look like Garbage to Everybody save Grammar Nerds Like Me. --Torc. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Use of ‘fancy’ punctuation characters
i really do think, that typographical correct punctuation is nonsense in a non-print environment. it adds inconsitency and noise to the database since most users are only able (or willing) to use the chars ' and and - and an automatic determination is not reliable imho. also most fontsets designed for screen display dont have all typographic characters which will lead to severe display errors on several playback devices; and even if they have them included their implementation is often horrid, leading to a cluttered and broken appearance. I don't see any profit from it, but a lot of work and a lot of problems coming up just because of a pedantic approach to implement everthing thats most correct. usability typographical correctness -- lorenz pressler PGP 0x92E9551A ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Use of ‘fancy’ punctuation characters
Am 17.06.2011, 01:17 Uhr, schrieb Paul C. Bryan pbr...@anode.ca: And in your opinion, in a print environment, it's not nonsense? If so, I'd like to better understand why this is your position. fonts for print are designed with the background, that they are displayed at much higher resolution/dpi than regular displays. fonts for screen are aiming at an easy legibility on many types of devices. distance to the eye is bigger than while reading a book and emissive displays add additional strain to the eye. also you have to deal with antialiasing and blurry looks. typographic punctuation -as they are quite small and look very similar- need to be much more accentuated to make their different nature visible. so you have 'oversized' punctuation and no advanced/dynamic layout and character-alignment a professional publishing program would give you. the whole design approach is different when doing a print font or a screen font. you have to grant legibility for ever character (the distinct appearance to any other character) and this on a 72dpi screen in the worst case. of course displays get better and there are some fonts out there that maybe would work with those 'fancy' characters, however standard screen fonts on most OS's are not made for this. it may be more 'correct' but makes readability worse where it should make it better. i do quite some layout and typesetting work and i like using the right characters, ligatures and all the typographical hanky panky. the web is not the place for this (yet)! for my roku-soundbridge it will be never. my mp3 player will do 'ok' thx to rockbox, but the one of my girlfriend just freezes on some special chars or does not display anything. i know, thats not MBs fault but keep in mind whatever this data here will/can be used for. you are limiting usability for the fuzzy feeling of beeing nerdy. -- lorenz pressler PGP 0x92E9551A ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Use of ‘fancy’ punctuation characters
Hello, On 17/06/11 03:57, lorenz pressler wrote: Am 17.06.2011, 01:17 Uhr, schrieb Paul C. Bryanpbr...@anode.ca: And in your opinion, in a print environment, it's not nonsense? If so, I'd like to better understand why this is your position. i do quite some layout and typesetting work and i like using the right characters, ligatures and all the typographical hanky panky. the web is not the place for this (yet)! for my roku-soundbridge it will be never. my mp3 player will do 'ok' thx to rockbox, but the one of my girlfriend just freezes on some special chars or does not display anything. i know, thats not MBs fault but keep in mind whatever this data here will/can be used for. you are limiting usability for the fuzzy feeling of beeing nerdy. MusicBrainz is a database primarily. If you're creating a project which uses MusicBrainz data in a print environment you then benefit from the right characters in the data. If you're creating a project for a non-print environment you can easily convert fancy punctuation back to ascii. If your mp3 player has trouble using these characters you should use a tagger which can do this conversion for you (picard has the option Convert unicode punctuation characters to ASCII for this reason). -- kuno / warp. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
