[mb-style] NGS guidelines
For a few reasons, I've been silent here for the past while. However, I feel I have to at least comment on the change in guidelines that has taken place. I may not be commenting on the list, but I do still at least skim the style list to see what's happening. Thus, when I saw an edit note citing something in an entirely rewritten guideline, I was rather surprised. Based on nikki's announcement ( http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2011-May/011267.html ), it looked like a rewrite in progress, not a RFC, let alone a RFC that changed every single style guideline. I looked at the time with the understanding that this was a work in progress, not something just days away from being official. Yet the change to the pages from being available for review at User:kuno/Style to those same pages suddenly being the official guidelines took place only 6 days later and with no RFC/RFV/etc, only http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2011-May/011369.html . So how did such a major and complete rewrite skip RFC/RFV, and become official within 6 days of being announced (if you count nikki's May 10 email as being the RFC, though not mentioned in the email's subject). I won't email again, but this is important enough that I couldn't not say something. Every single style guideline has been changed, and there's more than a few of the new guidelines which have dropped important items and/or changed things counter to how they were decided back during RFCs for the individual guidelines. Brian ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 14:34, Brian Schweitzer brian.brianschweit...@gmail.com wrote: For a few reasons, I've been silent here for the past while. However, I feel I have to at least comment on the change in guidelines that has taken place. I may not be commenting on the list, but I do still at least skim the style list to see what's happening. Thus, when I saw an edit note citing something in an entirely rewritten guideline, I was rather surprised. Based on nikki's announcement ( http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2011-May/011267.html ), it looked like a rewrite in progress, not a RFC, let alone a RFC that changed every single style guideline. I looked at the time with the understanding that this was a work in progress, not something just days away from being official. Yet the change to the pages from being available for review at User:kuno/Style to those same pages suddenly being the official guidelines took place only 6 days later and with no RFC/RFV/etc, only http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2011-May/011369.html . So how did such a major and complete rewrite skip RFC/RFV, and become official within 6 days of being announced (if you count nikki's May 10 email as being the RFC, though not mentioned in the email's subject). I won't email again, but this is important enough that I couldn't not say something. Every single style guideline has been changed, and there's more than a few of the new guidelines which have dropped important items and/or changed things counter to how they were decided back during RFCs for the individual guidelines. Brian I'll let nikki and kuno speak for themselves, but just wanted to note that I support the complete overhaul and that the normal process has been circumvented. Most of the old guidelines don't make sense with NGS, and doing such a big change by RFC/RFV would have been extremely painful. I think we're much better off taking the rewrite and working from there. Getting people in sync with the changes is another matter, but I expect we'll sort it out. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
I support the complete overhaul and that the normal process has been circumvented. Most of the old guidelines don't make sense with NGS, and doing such a big change by RFC/RFV would have been extremely painful. I think we're much better off taking the rewrite and working from there. I couldn't agree more. (I know, I've tried). ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On 24 May 2011 13:34, Brian Schweitzer brian.brianschweit...@gmail.com wrote: For a few reasons, I've been silent here for the past while. However, I feel I have to at least comment on the change in guidelines that has taken place. I may not be commenting on the list, but I do still at least skim the style list to see what's happening. Thus, when I saw an edit note citing something in an entirely rewritten guideline, I was rather surprised. Based on nikki's announcement ( http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2011-May/011267.html ), it looked like a rewrite in progress, not a RFC, let alone a RFC that changed every single style guideline. I looked at the time with the understanding that this was a work in progress, not something just days away from being official. Yet the change to the pages from being available for review at User:kuno/Style to those same pages suddenly being the official guidelines took place only 6 days later and with no RFC/RFV/etc, only http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2011-May/011369.html . So how did such a major and complete rewrite skip RFC/RFV, and become official within 6 days of being announced (if you count nikki's May 10 email as being the RFC, though not mentioned in the email's subject). I won't email again, but this is important enough that I couldn't not say something. Every single style guideline has been changed, and there's more than a few of the new guidelines which have dropped important items and/or changed things counter to how they were decided back during RFCs for the individual guidelines. Brian ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style I couldn't agree more and I've raised this issue in at least one discussion. I didn't expect NGS to be an excuse to change the guidelines by dictate rather than discussion. -- Andrew :-) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and IcedTea http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://icedtea.classpath.org PGP Key: F5862A37 (https://keys.indymedia.org/) Fingerprint = EA30 D855 D50F 90CD F54D 0698 0713 C3ED F586 2A37 ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
2011/5/24 Philip Jägenstedt phi...@foolip.org On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 14:34, Brian Schweitzer brian.brianschweit...@gmail.com wrote: For a few reasons, I've been silent here for the past while. However, I feel I have to at least comment on the change in guidelines that has taken place. I may not be commenting on the list, but I do still at least skim the style list to see what's happening. Thus, when I saw an edit note citing something in an entirely rewritten guideline, I was rather surprised. Based on nikki's announcement ( http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2011-May/011267.html ), it looked like a rewrite in progress, not a RFC, let alone a RFC that changed every single style guideline. I looked at the time with the understanding that this was a work in progress, not something just days away from being official. Yet the change to the pages from being available for review at User:kuno/Style to those same pages suddenly being the official guidelines took place only 6 days later and with no RFC/RFV/etc, only http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2011-May/011369.html . So how did such a major and complete rewrite skip RFC/RFV, and become official within 6 days of being announced (if you count nikki's May 10 email as being the RFC, though not mentioned in the email's subject). I won't email again, but this is important enough that I couldn't not say something. Every single style guideline has been changed, and there's more than a few of the new guidelines which have dropped important items and/or changed things counter to how they were decided back during RFCs for the individual guidelines. Brian I'll let nikki and kuno speak for themselves, but just wanted to note that I support the complete overhaul and that the normal process has been circumvented. Most of the old guidelines don't make sense with NGS, and doing such a big change by RFC/RFV would have been extremely painful. I think we're much better off taking the rewrite and working from there. Getting people in sync with the changes is another matter, but I expect we'll sort it out. If we had followed the usual process even for only a minimal set of guides, we would have had to delay NGS for maybe a few months, which would have been a pity, because installing such a big change without upgrading the guides would have been madness and probably resulted in lots of bad data. I also feel that the 2011-05-10 post actually said what was going to happen. I did not realize it when I read it at that time, but it's there. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On 24 May 2011 15:38, Philip Jägenstedt phi...@foolip.org wrote: snip.. I'll let nikki and kuno speak for themselves, but just wanted to note that I support the complete overhaul and that the normal process has been circumvented. Most of the old guidelines don't make sense with NGS, and doing such a big change by RFC/RFV would have been extremely painful. I think we're much better off taking the rewrite and working from there. Getting people in sync with the changes is another matter, but I expect we'll sort it out. Sorry, but a process taking time or being painful is not a reason to impose the views of a few people on everyone else. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Andrew :-) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and IcedTea http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://icedtea.classpath.org PGP Key: F5862A37 (https://keys.indymedia.org/) Fingerprint = EA30 D855 D50F 90CD F54D 0698 0713 C3ED F586 2A37 ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Dr Andrew John Hughes gnu_and...@member.fsf.org wrote: Sorry, but a process taking time or being painful is not a reason to impose the views of a few people on everyone else. I don't think that the intent of the NGS guideline updates was to impose someone's view on everyone else. But the NGS changes are huge, and IMHO it would have been impossible to get the guidelines right in advance. People have to actually work with the new data model. I see the updated NGS guidelines as a starting point. What we now need is the discussion here on the mailing list to improve the guidelines and to work out how to handle all the style issues in NGS. -- Philipp ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
and IMHO it would have been impossible to get the guidelines right in advance I think it would have been possible, but we would still be waiting for NGS two or three years down the line. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On 24/05/2011 16:59, Philipp Wolfer wrote: On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Dr Andrew John Hughes gnu_andrew-igugqlvvqircv4ilt04...@public.gmane.org wrote: Sorry, but a process taking time or being painful is not a reason to impose the views of a few people on everyone else. I don't think that the intent of the NGS guideline updates was to impose someone's view on everyone else. But the NGS changes are huge, and IMHO it would have been impossible to get the guidelines right in advance. People have to actually work with the new data model. I see the updated NGS guidelines as a starting point. What we now need is the discussion here on the mailing list to improve the guidelines and to work out how to handle all the style issues in NGS. I'm sure it wasn't the intent, and I agree that it's important for the editor population to have some guidelines in place from the start. It's very important, certainly to me and I think also to others, that it is an open project that I am contributing to, and it's not good enough to have guidelines written by two dictators, however benign. So now that we've reached this point, what will be the formal process by which the current provisional guidelines are validated and approved, and the arguments considered when developing previous guidelines not forgotten? ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 7:13 PM, monxton musicbra...@jordan-maynard.org wrote: On 24/05/2011 16:59, Philipp Wolfer wrote: On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Dr Andrew John Hughes gnu_andrew-igugqlvvqircv4ilt04...@public.gmane.org wrote: Sorry, but a process taking time or being painful is not a reason to impose the views of a few people on everyone else. I don't think that the intent of the NGS guideline updates was to impose someone's view on everyone else. But the NGS changes are huge, and IMHO it would have been impossible to get the guidelines right in advance. People have to actually work with the new data model. I see the updated NGS guidelines as a starting point. What we now need is the discussion here on the mailing list to improve the guidelines and to work out how to handle all the style issues in NGS. I'm sure it wasn't the intent, and I agree that it's important for the editor population to have some guidelines in place from the start. It's very important, certainly to me and I think also to others, that it is an open project that I am contributing to, and it's not good enough to have guidelines written by two dictators, however benign. So now that we've reached this point, what will be the formal process by which the current provisional guidelines are validated and approved, and the arguments considered when developing previous guidelines not forgotten? Well, this is the basic NGS set, and of course it is open to modifications. If you don't agree with something and think it should be done in other way, why am I not seeing any RFC about it? ;) Go propose stuff! ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On May 24, 2011, at 8:04 AM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: I couldn't agree more and I've raised this issue in at least one discussion. I didn't expect NGS to be an excuse to change the guidelines by dictate rather than discussion. I'd like to remind folks that Nikki and Warp are your BDFLs for all things style. That said, I applaud their efforts (and financially supported them as well!) for making NGS style guidelines happen. At some point you have to put a few people together, get out of the way and let them revamp everything. This was one of those times and I support Warp and Nikki in their work -- thank you, you two! This isn't to say that the NGS style guidelines didn't get at least a modicum of review by others -- they did. Nor is their work saying that we're going to ignore the input from the community -- we aren't. If something is broke now, lets use the community process to fix it. -- --ruaokThe answer to whether or not something is a good idea should not be taken as an indication of whether I want to do it. Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
Hello, So how did such a major and complete rewrite skip RFC/RFV, and become official within 6 days of being announced (if you count nikki's May 10 email as being the RFC, though not mentioned in the email's subject). I think this misrepresents what nikki and I have done. No major changes were made to the guidelines. In all cases where I wanted to remove a guideline or change a guideline I have posted an RFC to mb-style. What we did do is: 1. remove guidelines which no longer apply due to changes in NGS 2. add first versions of new guidelines for new elements of NGS 3. restructure everything so that it is no longer a jumble of tiny documents spread out over the wiki, but a set of guidelines with at least some structure to them. This whole process started in january 2010, and I think everyone has had enough time to participate in it or voice their objections. If you (or anyone else) think either nikki or I have not acted properly here I suggest you discuss that with ruaok. None of the new guidelines we've written are intended to be final. But we needed to have a starting point, and now that NGS has been release and everyone is using it, we have a better foundation to discuss all of this properly, and we can RFC/RFV any changes needed. -- kuno / warp. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names (strictly conform to standard) ? Eventually no? from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner, following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions... Read it (proposal CSG v2) Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings titles are more standard. I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and compilations. I think that the use of standard titles for recordings (same title as works) should be applied. About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German. Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case. About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the language. I am sorry but there is no No. in French but no, Nr. in German, no in Italian, Spanish... # in US English,... followed by Arabian numbers. Abbreviation of opus is Op. in English but op. for Latin languages In the example cited in the documentation Les nuits d'été, Op. 7: 2. Le spectre de la rose (Alt), the space before semi-colon sign is missing while it is mentioned that If French CSG is being used, the additional punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrenchhttp://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Capitalization_Standard_Frenchalso apply.. and the French capitalization is missing too. It should be : Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply French capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt) while the work title could be Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) or Mélodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 « Les Nuits d'été » : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one composer and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identificationshould reflect this position. Ex: For Hector Berlioz, the language should be French. So instead of : Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C major and minor, Op. 14 Episode de la vie d'un artiste... en cinq partes: III. Scène aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur et mineur, op. 14 « Épisode de . Same for Mozart and Bach : German language obviously here : Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and orchestra, BWV 197a/7 *vel* 398 Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe it is better to write Kantate für at least for the work title. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
'copy of back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors and capitalization effects)...' Please no. No, no, no, no, no. Do we really want to turn MB into the mess that is Discogs? Correcting mistakes is ok, we're just not attempting to standardise the titles. Why I prefer using MB that other database ? it is because, the track titles are corrected, there is capitalization standards and good titles for classical releases (a bit heavier... takes a long time to enter/correct them). Up to now, we assumed that the style guidelines should be applied if it is not proofed that there is an artist intent. Now if one word is missing or weird capitalization is used in a track title, It might happen for releases outside of the country of the artists... even more for French, Spanish,... song names (no more accents, capitalization standard and frequent spelling errors). if we correct the error, we standardise the titles in fact. The exceptions should be for translated or transliterated names, and when the song is renamed. Best example is U2 - Pride, Pride is the official title of the song... better known as In the Name of Love. The guidelines should be precise on that. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2011/5/12 caramel carame...@ymail.com And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names (strictly conform to standard) ? Eventually no? from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner, following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions... Read it (proposal CSG v2) Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings titles are more standard. I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and compilations. I think that the use of standard titles for recordings (same title as works) should be applied. About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German. Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case. About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the language. I am sorry but there is no No. in French but no, Nr. in German, no in Italian, Spanish... # in US English,... followed by Arabian numbers. Abbreviation of opus is Op. in English but op. for Latin languages In the example cited in the documentation Les nuits d'été, Op. 7: 2. Le spectre de la rose (Alt), the space before semi-colon sign is missing while it is mentioned that If French CSG is being used, the additional punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrenchhttp://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Capitalization_Standard_Frenchalso apply.. and the French capitalization is missing too. It should be : Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply French capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt) while the work title could be Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) or Mélodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 « Les Nuits d'été » : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one composer and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identificationshould reflect this position. Ex: For Hector Berlioz, the language should be French. So instead of : Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C major and minor, Op. 14 Episode de la vie d'un artiste... en cinq partes: III. Scène aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur et mineur, op. 14 « Épisode de . Same for Mozart and Bach : German language obviously here : Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and orchestra, BWV 197a/7 *vel* 398 Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe it is better to write Kantate für at least for the work title. I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I believe there are 2 parts in a title: - the reference part, work type, catalog info etc... - the common name I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so. Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie are in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would have difficulties entering Чайковский, Пётр Ильич works or linking one of my albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously doubt Béla Bartók would be easier. I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in German, In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too. If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we translate to English... But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125, I get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours Symphonie, Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number So it will be a big job to merge the works. As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at the
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:53 PM, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: 2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2011/5/12 caramel carame...@ymail.com And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names (strictly conform to standard) ? Eventually no? from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner, following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions... Read it (proposal CSG v2) Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings titles are more standard. I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and compilations. I think that the use of standard titles for recordings (same title as works) should be applied. About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German. Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case. About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the language. I am sorry but there is no No. in French but no, Nr. in German, no in Italian, Spanish... # in US English,... followed by Arabian numbers. Abbreviation of opus is Op. in English but op. for Latin languages In the example cited in the documentation Les nuits d'été, Op. 7: 2. Le spectre de la rose (Alt), the space before semi-colon sign is missing while it is mentioned that If French CSG is being used, the additional punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrench also apply.. and the French capitalization is missing too. It should be : Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply French capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt) while the work title could be Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) or Mélodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 « Les Nuits d'été » : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one composer and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identification should reflect this position. Ex: For Hector Berlioz, the language should be French. So instead of : Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C major and minor, Op. 14 Episode de la vie d'un artiste... en cinq partes: III. Scène aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur et mineur, op. 14 « Épisode de . Same for Mozart and Bach : German language obviously here : Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and orchestra, BWV 197a/7 vel 398 Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe it is better to write Kantate für at least for the work title. I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I believe there are 2 parts in a title: - the reference part, work type, catalog info etc... - the common name I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so. Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie are in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would have difficulties entering Чайковский, Пётр Ильич works or linking one of my albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously doubt Béla Bartók would be easier. I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in German, In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too. If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we translate to English... But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125, I get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours Symphonie, Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number So it will be a big job to merge the works. As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
2011/5/12 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:53 PM, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: 2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2011/5/12 caramel carame...@ymail.com And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names (strictly conform to standard) ? Eventually no? from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner, following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions... Read it (proposal CSG v2) Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings titles are more standard. I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and compilations. I think that the use of standard titles for recordings (same title as works) should be applied. About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German. Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case. About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the language. I am sorry but there is no No. in French but no, Nr. in German, no in Italian, Spanish... # in US English,... followed by Arabian numbers. Abbreviation of opus is Op. in English but op. for Latin languages In the example cited in the documentation Les nuits d'été, Op. 7: 2. Le spectre de la rose (Alt), the space before semi-colon sign is missing while it is mentioned that If French CSG is being used, the additional punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrench also apply.. and the French capitalization is missing too. It should be : Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply French capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt) while the work title could be Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) or Mélodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 « Les Nuits d'été » : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one composer and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identification should reflect this position. Ex: For Hector Berlioz, the language should be French. So instead of : Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C major and minor, Op. 14 Episode de la vie d'un artiste... en cinq partes: III. Scène aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur et mineur, op. 14 « Épisode de . Same for Mozart and Bach : German language obviously here : Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and orchestra, BWV 197a/7 vel 398 Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe it is better to write Kantate für at least for the work title. I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I believe there are 2 parts in a title: - the reference part, work type, catalog info etc... - the common name I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so. Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie are in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would have difficulties entering Чайковский, Пётр Ильич works or linking one of my albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously doubt Béla Bartók would be easier. I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in German, In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too. If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we translate to English... But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125, I get about 400 works without taking
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Thu, 12 May 2011 14:00:43 +0200, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:53 PM, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: 2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2011/5/12 caramel carame...@ymail.com And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names (strictly conform to standard) ? Eventually no? from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner, following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions... Read it (proposal CSG v2) Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings titles are more standard. I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and compilations. I think that the use of standard titles for recordings (same title as works) should be applied. About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German. Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case. About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the language. I am sorry but there is no No. in French but no, Nr. in German, no in Italian, Spanish... # in US English,... followed by Arabian numbers. Abbreviation of opus is Op. in English but op. for Latin languages In the example cited in the documentation Les nuits d'été, Op. 7: 2. Le spectre de la rose (Alt), the space before semi-colon sign is missing while it is mentioned that If French CSG is being used, the additional punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrench also apply.. and the French capitalization is missing too. It should be : Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply French capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt) while the work title could be Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) or Mélodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 « Les Nuits d'été » : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one composer and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identification should reflect this position. Ex: For Hector Berlioz, the language should be French. So instead of : Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C major and minor, Op. 14 Episode de la vie d'un artiste... en cinq partes: III. Scène aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur et mineur, op. 14 « Épisode de . Same for Mozart and Bach : German language obviously here : Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and orchestra, BWV 197a/7 vel 398 Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe it is better to write Kantate für at least for the work title. I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I believe there are 2 parts in a title: - the reference part, work type, catalog info etc... - the common name I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so. Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie are in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would have difficulties entering Чайковский, Пётр Ильич works or linking one of my albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously doubt Béla Bartók would be easier. I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in German, In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too. If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we translate to English... But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125, I get about 400 works without taking into
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On 12 May 2011 14:19, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com wrote: I assume that if we don't default to original titles, we would always get partly translated titles derived from works? Let's say some of Tchaikovsky's works are in French, but I'd have to somehow manually select aliases if I don't want everything in French? I'm just guessing here, it would be interesting to know how Picard would handle this. Well, that's a very important point, having a clean database with titles in the original language and a translated alias is great, but it's important to normalize how this is handled to have an automation in the tagging of our favourite ID3 tagger. I would love to have an option in Jaikoz/Picard to say that I want the tagging in english or say romaji when I'm managing Japanese albums (note that for languages requiring UTF8 the issue is even worse: many players do not display properly the original language). Regards, -- http://transparency.org/ The global coalition against corruption ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
2011/5/12 Wieland Hoffmann themi...@googlemail.com Hello, caramel: I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to discriminate our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I am not closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add aliases for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original title in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias name. AFAICS (http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/-/images/5/52/ngs.png) work aliases don't have any attribute indicating work_alias.name is a translation of work.name (or even the language used in work_alias.name) which would make it hard to use this in e.g. picard to automatically choose the correct language. I guess internationalization should be the next major step for MB. I wrote major because this is definitely not going to be easy. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2011/5/12 caramel carame...@ymail.com 2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I believe there are 2 parts in a title: - the reference part, work type, catalog info etc... - the common name I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so. Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie are in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would have difficulties entering Чайковский, Пётр Ильич works or linking one of my albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously doubt Béla Bartók would be easier. I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in German, In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too. If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we translate to English... JSB never heard of BWV, nor WAM of K :-) In many cases if we were to follow ArtistIntent strictly, we should remove catalog mentions. And we should restore archaic spellings too. For example some countries artificially changed spelling rules at the beginning of 20th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Portuguese_orthography, so should 19th century Portuguese Works be entered in their original spelling or with modern spelling? Of course, this question would also apply to works by more well known composers such as Marin Marais or Scarlatti. Once again, I am not saying you are wrong, it certainly would be consistent with other MB rules, but we should examine the consequences. Should we record Works using the exact name the composer used (which would mean eventually checking on the manuscript) or a normalized modern name? Or something in between. Frankly, I don't know which to choose, there are arguments for each option. But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125, I get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours Symphonie, Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number So it will be a big job to merge the works. As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at the Beethoven's manuscript of the first edition of the score on IMSLP or read the web (English) pages of the Beethoven's house museum ( http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15241template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en_eid=1510_ug=Symphonies_werkid=127_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethovensuchparameter=_seite=1) given the correct name is Sinfonie Nr. 9 (d-Moll) op. 125 with key in parenthesis since it was not given by the author, and opus abbreviation with lower case (German !). We can derive a CSG compliant name from this but since we will have to do the work for all the works and all the composers and merge all the fake works to the correct and attach the recordings without works (eg. http://ngs.musicbrainz.org/recording/0160bf56-1c40-4a02-84f1-ee675c568d56and many others). I think we can propose a language for each composer, before to initiate the enormous work for the next months. I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to discriminate our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I am not closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add aliases for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original title in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias name. You prefer Latin script like me, but Russian users would probably disagree. If we follow ArtistIntent strictly, clearly Russian Works should be entered in Cyrillic. Yes with aliases names in at least one Latin language. For classical composers, there are lot of resources available (eg. http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/Works/) to know the original titles and to choose between all common names found in the database. But it will last months and more to enter all the information and link the recordings. And as already said, there is no attributes about the language used for the name, so it won't be straightforward to choose between the OT and all alternate titles given as aliases. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
2011/5/12 caramel carame...@ymail.com 2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com You prefer Latin script like me, but Russian users would probably disagree. If we follow ArtistIntent strictly, clearly Russian Works should be entered in Cyrillic. Yes with aliases names in at least one Latin language. For classical composers, there are lot of resources available (eg. http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/Works/) to know the original titles and to choose between all common names found in the database. But it will last months and more to enter all the information and link the recordings. I don't think there is an easy and quick way to do it. The only sure thing is that more we wait, more releases are entered and more work there is to do :-) Now that NGS is here with Works support, we should go on. But you I agree we must do it carefully. I believe/hope there will be new data schemas better suited for classical music, and if we do it carefully we will make the work for that next step easier. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
Same here (bar the classical stuff which I don't work on and thus don't know too much about). To expand on my point, I can see cases where you would want track names to differ e.g. * Crediting a track differently depending on the release such as having Queen as a featured artist on Under Pressure for a Bowie release. * Allowing The Detroit Spinners to be used on UK releases rather than The Spinners. In these examples, you are talking about artist credits more than track names. Under Pressure is credited to Queen David Bowie in MB. But keeping something like Madonna being spelt Madona on a release doesn't make any sense to me. This is especially true as most consumers will get track-level only for the time being. I agree. But for example, I enter a release Demis Roussos - 20 Golden Hits. There are spelling error in French, grammar error for a Spanish, no accents of course, and all words with cap as first letter. The corresponding freeDB record is even worst. I corrected errors, put accents, changed the capitalization accordingly to the title language of the track. For me, I did a standardisation of the track names and did not follow the back cover. I prefer. So the cases of different names between tracks and recordings would be very very limited... except for translated and transliterated recording names. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
Wieland Hoffmann wrote: AFAICS (http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/-/images/5/52/ngs.png) work aliases don't have any attribute indicating work_alias.name is a translation of work.name (or even the language used in work_alias.name) which would make it hard to use this in e.g. picard to automatically choose the correct language. This file hasn't been updated since September, so there are some things missing from it (I've asked Lukáš to update it, so hopefully we'll have an up-to-date version soon :)). All aliases can have a locale (see [1] for example) and once Picard has been updated to use the new webservice, it should be able to use that information. Nikki [1] http://test.musicbrainz.org/work/5f73a558-0ad8-3c93-b2a0-81c7da297af0/aliases ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
Hallo, Nikki: Wieland Hoffmann wrote: AFAICS (http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/-/images/5/52/ngs.png) work aliases don't have any attribute indicating work_alias.name is a translation of work.name (or even the language used in work_alias.name) which would make it hard to use this in e.g. picard to automatically choose the correct language. This file hasn't been updated since September, so there are some things missing from it (I've asked Lukáš to update it, so hopefully we'll have an up-to-date version soon :)). All aliases can have a locale (see [1] for example) and once Picard has been updated to use the new webservice, it should be able to use that information. Thanks! That makes things certainly much easier. -- Wieland / Mineo signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
Hello, The documentation page about Works are missing. In this page http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, we are talking about track titles but there are no more tracks titles in NGS but recordings titles. The link between track / recording / work might be presented briefly. Olivier ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 10:10 AM, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: Hello, The documentation page about Works are missing. In this page http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, we are talking about track titles but there are no more tracks titles in NGS but recordings titles. The link between track / recording / work might be presented briefly. Untrue. There *are* track titles. They are not the same as recording titles or work titles. For example: Track title 1 in http://test.musicbrainz.org/release/df025315-4897-4759-ba77-d2cd09b5b4b6 (that I just edited for the example) is different from its associated recording title in http://test.musicbrainz.org/recording/46fed65e-5031-423f-998b-a3cda367e78b Olivier ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Tue, 10 May 2011 08:39:37 +0200, Nikki aei...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, As you probably know, Kuno and I have been working [snip] I'm not sure it's a good idea w. only separate pages for everything; it's a lot of clicking back forth now. I'd like an overview of the concept of releases/release groups/recordings first. Or a page with all the basic stuff. As it is now, title formatting comes first, and later we explain what a release group is? Maybe something like: 1. Recordings, releases and release groups [overview] 1. Release Group 2. Release 3. Recording Really just brainstorming - maybe the quick start guide will solve this? ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Wed, 11 May 2011 13:22:22 +0200, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 10:10 AM, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: Hello, The documentation page about Works are missing. In this page http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, we are talking about track titles but there are no more tracks titles in NGS but recordings titles. The link between track / recording / work might be presented briefly. Untrue. There *are* track titles. They are not the same as recording titles or work titles. For example: Track title 1 in http://test.musicbrainz.org/release/df025315-4897-4759-ba77-d2cd09b5b4b6 (that I just edited for the example) is different from its associated recording title in http://test.musicbrainz.org/recording/46fed65e-5031-423f-998b-a3cda367e78b Olivier On http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Image:ngs.png they're the same field? Track_name ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Wed, 11 May 2011 13:58:46 +0200, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 10 May 2011 08:39:37 +0200, Nikki aei...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, As you probably know, Kuno and I have been working [snip] I'm not sure it's a good idea w. only separate pages for everything; it's a lot of clicking back forth now. I'd like an overview of the concept of releases/release groups/recordings first. Or a page with all the basic stuff. As it is now, title formatting comes first, and later we explain what a release group is? Maybe something like: 1. Recordings, releases and release groups [overview] 1. Release Group 2. Release 3. Recording Really just brainstorming - maybe the quick start guide will solve this? like a slightly modified version of http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Next_Generation_Schema ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
So if there are track titles, recording titles and works titles for the same song, it really will be a big job to check and fix the database records, link them through ARs (manually since there is no webservice yet), if the different names differ without any justification (not a remix, alternate version,...). 2011/5/11 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 10:10 AM, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: Hello, The documentation page about Works are missing. In this page http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, we are talking about track titles but there are no more tracks titles in NGS but recordings titles. The link between track / recording / work might be presented briefly. Untrue. There *are* track titles. They are not the same as recording titles or work titles. For example: Track title 1 in http://test.musicbrainz.org/release/df025315-4897-4759-ba77-d2cd09b5b4b6 (that I just edited for the example) is different from its associated recording title in http://test.musicbrainz.org/recording/46fed65e-5031-423f-998b-a3cda367e78b Olivier ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 4:20 PM, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: So if there are track titles, recording titles and works titles for the same song, it really will be a big job to check and fix the database records, link them through ARs (manually since there is no webservice yet), if the different names differ without any justification (not a remix, alternate version,...). There *is* a justification: track titles are supposed to follow what is printed on the release, while recording / work titles will be standards. 2011/5/11 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 10:10 AM, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: Hello, The documentation page about Works are missing. In this page http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, we are talking about track titles but there are no more tracks titles in NGS but recordings titles. The link between track / recording / work might be presented briefly. Untrue. There *are* track titles. They are not the same as recording titles or work titles. For example: Track title 1 in http://test.musicbrainz.org/release/df025315-4897-4759-ba77-d2cd09b5b4b6 (that I just edited for the example) is different from its associated recording title in http://test.musicbrainz.org/recording/46fed65e-5031-423f-998b-a3cda367e78b Olivier ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
Ok seems clear... for new releases ! so no artist intent (at all) for recordings and works names, and copy of back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors and capitalization effects)... may be a rough and a bit extreme understanding ! So the new style guidelines should reflect better this distinction. And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names (strictly conform to standard) ? Olivier 2011/5/11 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 4:20 PM, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: So if there are track titles, recording titles and works titles for the same song, it really will be a big job to check and fix the database records, link them through ARs (manually since there is no webservice yet), if the different names differ without any justification (not a remix, alternate version,...). There *is* a justification: track titles are supposed to follow what is printed on the release, while recording / work titles will be standards. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
The differences between artist credits on tracks and artist credits on recordings should be explained too Olivier ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Wed, 11 May 2011 16:07:46 +0200, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: Ok seems clear... for new releases ! so no artist intent (at all) for recordings and works names, and copy of back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors and capitalization effects)... may be a rough and a bit extreme understanding ! So the new style guidelines should reflect better this distinction. And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names (strictly conform to standard) ? Eventually no? from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner, following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions... I'm OK with moving old CSG to works and using that proposal (needs some work) for track names. But we haven't had a RFC process yet I haven't seen Brian around lately, he's the champion for that proposal. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 8:01 PM, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 11 May 2011 16:07:46 +0200, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: Ok seems clear... for new releases ! so no artist intent (at all) for recordings and works names, and copy of back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors and capitalization effects)... may be a rough and a bit extreme understanding ! So the new style guidelines should reflect better this distinction. And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names (strictly conform to standard) ? Eventually no? from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner, following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions... I'm OK with moving old CSG to works and using that proposal (needs some work) for track names. But we haven't had a RFC process yet I haven't seen Brian around lately, he's the champion for that proposal. Brian is no longer involved in the style process. CSGv2 is currently being worked at by caller#6, and you should probably contact him for any suggestions / ideas in that front. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
symphonick wrote: I'd like an overview of the concept of releases/release groups/recordings first. Or a page with all the basic stuff. As it is now, title formatting comes first, and later we explain what a release group is? Right now we're missing documentation that explains what things are (which wouldn't be part of the guidelines), which is part of the problem (I'll see what I can do about that). Maybe something like: 1. Recordings, releases and release groups [overview] 1. Release Group 2. Release 3. Recording Really just brainstorming - maybe the quick start guide will solve this? The quick start guide is supposed to do something like that, yes. :) Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: Live Track Style, Featuring Artist Style and Versus Style still haven't been incorporated. If any other official pages are missing, please let us know. Is this just due to lack of time? I think any discussion to drop/change these needs discussion and, personally, I'd prefer we avoided doing it at the same time as the move to NGS. That's going to cause enough change on its own. Mostly because we haven't figured out what should happen. Trying to apply the current Live Track Style and Featuring Artist Style to recordings is complicated because a single recording can be used across a range of different releases, so something that depends on the other tracks on the release (in the former case) or how it's credited on the release (in the latter case) is tricky. For Versus Style, I believe the issue was more to do with how much of it even applies in NGS. Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On 11 May 2011 15:07, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: 'copy of back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors and capitalization effects)...' Please no. No, no, no, no, no. Do we really want to turn MB into the mess that is Discogs? -- Andrew :-) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and IcedTea http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://icedtea.classpath.org PGP Key: F5862A37 (https://keys.indymedia.org/) Fingerprint = EA30 D855 D50F 90CD F54D 0698 0713 C3ED F586 2A37 ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: On 11 May 2011 15:07, caramel carame...@ymail.com wrote: 'copy of back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors and capitalization effects)...' Please no. No, no, no, no, no. Do we really want to turn MB into the mess that is Discogs? Correcting mistakes is ok, we're just not attempting to standardise the titles. Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] NGS guidelines
Hello, As you probably know, Kuno and I have been working on adapting the guidelines for NGS. We wanted to finish before sending an email, but it's getting rather late (sorry), so I figured something is better than nothing... By the way, the idea is that these guidelines will become official with NGS and then people can change them as they would any other guideline if they want to. We don't want a repeat of the release group situation (still no official guidelines, two years on...) You can see what we have right now here - http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style For the most part, we've not been trying to change guidelines, except where things are added or change because of NGS. Many of the pages have comments by me in 【brackets like these】 with some explanations. Obviously they will be removed. We've tried to incorporate all of the current official guidelines. Disc Number Style and Box Set Name Style will be deprecated, for hopefully obvious reasons (we may need new guidelines for box sets once people have had chance to try entering them in NGS). Live Track Style, Featuring Artist Style and Versus Style still haven't been incorporated. If any other official pages are missing, please let us know. Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
Hello, I wanted to discover the new NGS style guideline... In my first page read http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, there are some problems... About the examples for capitalization: confusion the waitress is not in lower-cases in MB but follows the English rules ( http://musicbrainz.org/search/textsearch.html?type=trackquery=confusion+the+waitresshandlearguments=1 ) and the problem of artistIntent always raise !! The first multi-lines example is not so clear too in MB ( http://musicbrainz.org/release/aee61e32-40bf-43ad-b5ee-a7a6572e69a3.html ), we find Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Ring of Fates instead of the example. The main title all-in-caps is here considered because it is a Japanese release but the justification to keep this capitalization is discussable... and it is the same about the use or not of Original Soundtrack. It is better to use clear examples that match with the MB database records. Olivier 2011/5/10 Nikki aei...@gmail.com Hello, As you probably know, Kuno and I have been working on adapting the guidelines for NGS. We wanted to finish before sending an email, but it's getting rather late (sorry), so I figured something is better than nothing... By the way, the idea is that these guidelines will become official with NGS and then people can change them as they would any other guideline if they want to. We don't want a repeat of the release group situation (still no official guidelines, two years on...) You can see what we have right now here - http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style For the most part, we've not been trying to change guidelines, except where things are added or change because of NGS. Many of the pages have comments by me in 【brackets like these】 with some explanations. Obviously they will be removed. We've tried to incorporate all of the current official guidelines. Disc Number Style and Box Set Name Style will be deprecated, for hopefully obvious reasons (we may need new guidelines for box sets once people have had chance to try entering them in NGS). Live Track Style, Featuring Artist Style and Versus Style still haven't been incorporated. If any other official pages are missing, please let us know. Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
I forgot to mention the third example in multi-lines The actual title of the release is This Is the Modern World / All Mod Cons instead of This is the Modern World and All Mod Cons: The two songs are separated by a slash following the general rules even if on the cover there is a and and the English capitalization is applied Is and not is. Olivier 2011/5/10 Nikki aei...@gmail.com Hello, As you probably know, Kuno and I have been working on adapting the guidelines for NGS. We wanted to finish before sending an email, but it's getting rather late (sorry), so I figured something is better than nothing... By the way, the idea is that these guidelines will become official with NGS and then people can change them as they would any other guideline if they want to. We don't want a repeat of the release group situation (still no official guidelines, two years on...) You can see what we have right now here - http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style For the most part, we've not been trying to change guidelines, except where things are added or change because of NGS. Many of the pages have comments by me in 【brackets like these】 with some explanations. Obviously they will be removed. We've tried to incorporate all of the current official guidelines. Disc Number Style and Box Set Name Style will be deprecated, for hopefully obvious reasons (we may need new guidelines for box sets once people have had chance to try entering them in NGS). Live Track Style, Featuring Artist Style and Versus Style still haven't been incorporated. If any other official pages are missing, please let us know. Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] NGS guidelines
On 10 May 2011 07:39, Nikki aei...@gmail.com wrote: snip... Live Track Style, Featuring Artist Style and Versus Style still haven't been incorporated. If any other official pages are missing, please let us know. Is this just due to lack of time? I think any discussion to drop/change these needs discussion and, personally, I'd prefer we avoided doing it at the same time as the move to NGS. That's going to cause enough change on its own. Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Andrew :-) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and IcedTea http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://icedtea.classpath.org PGP Key: F5862A37 (https://keys.indymedia.org/) Fingerprint = EA30 D855 D50F 90CD F54D 0698 0713 C3ED F586 2A37 ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
