Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Tony Godshall]

According to Max Waterman,
> Jason Werpy wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:07:17 -0500, Mark L. Cukier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> >wrote:
> > 
> >
> >>Currently I would NEVER consider getting a "black box"-- I'm not going
> >>to steal cable. But, once the "black boxes" output a signal with the
> >>flag filtered out... well, I'll still pay for my cable but I'll
> >>definitely have a black box!
> >>
> >>:-D
> >>
> >>
> >>   
> >>
> >
> >This reminds me of an add they run on my cable where a guy is
> >interviewing for a job.  Then the interviewer notes that he has a
> >criminal record.  The inverviewee says "Oh that, I just had one of
> >those cable descramblers, its was no big deal".  The interviewer looks
> >at him and says well this interview is over, or something like that. 
> >Then cue the ominous "Cable Theft, its a Crime," voice over.  Every
> >time and I mean EVERY time I see this add I can just hear them
> > 
> >
> 
> >replacing the line about stealing cable with "I just recorded a show
> >to watch later with my PVR", and replacing the cable theft line with
> >"Recoding HD TV, its a Crime."
> > 
> >
> Maybe the EFF/whoever should run an ad campain with something like this. 
> It might wake people up to what is happeningor it might not...
> 
> Max.

Well, the Build-Ins are spreading... I hosted one in Alameda
last weekend, and two people who came are hosting their own.

Three machines built, but mine (the host's ironically) has
some issues with front-end (view recording seg-faults
front-end, tho mplayer -vo x11 -framdrop from commandline is
very very nice... I like HDTV; view live drops sound after a
bit).  

___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Max Waterman]

Jason Werpy wrote:
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:07:17 -0500, Mark L. Cukier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 

Currently I would NEVER consider getting a "black box"-- I'm not going
to steal cable. But, once the "black boxes" output a signal with the
flag filtered out... well, I'll still pay for my cable but I'll
definitely have a black box!
:-D
   

This reminds me of an add they run on my cable where a guy is
interviewing for a job.  Then the interviewer notes that he has a
criminal record.  The inverviewee says "Oh that, I just had one of
those cable descramblers, its was no big deal".  The interviewer looks
at him and says well this interview is over, or something like that. 
Then cue the ominous "Cable Theft, its a Crime," voice over.  Every
time and I mean EVERY time I see this add I can just hear them
 


replacing the line about stealing cable with "I just recorded a show
to watch later with my PVR", and replacing the cable theft line with
"Recoding HD TV, its a Crime."
 

Maybe the EFF/whoever should run an ad campain with something like this. 
It might wake people up to what is happeningor it might not...

Max.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Shawn Willden]

Andrew Close wrote:
i still don't quite get this.  if i invite 20 ppl over to watch 'Lost'
on Weds night isn't that a group showing?  i'm not profiting, peddling
or gaining in any way other than enjoying a show with a 'group' of
friends.
 

As I understand it, technically it's illegal to show your recordings to 
your friends if you have lots of them.  Even if the question were to go 
to court, as long as you weren't doing anything commerical I expect 
you'd be fine.  In practice, nothing at all would happen because the 
copyright holder would never know, and wouldn't care if they did know.

and if group showing is illegal then how do sports bars and public
places with televisions playing get away with it?
They pay fees for this privilege, or they're supposed to, anyway.  Same 
with playing the radio in a commercial establishment, or for "hold" 
music on phone systems, etc.  I worked for a small software house that 
used to pipe a radio station on the phones as hold music for tech 
support, and we got a cease and desist in the mail because someone 
reported us.  After that, we bought a commercial music feed designed 
specifically for that purpose.

and if that's the case then won't renting movies from Blockbuster
become illegal if i'm there picking out a movie with my family?  it
will be a group viewing when we get home...
 

The "group viewing" language includes an exception for family, IIRC.  To 
have a problem, you have to be showing it to more than a dozen or so 
people, who aren't family.

unemployment should virtually disappear in the next couple years
because everyone will be able to get a job in some area of law
inforcement so that there are enough officers to enforce this
silliness...
:-)
This has been the case for a while now.  It was all worked out in the 
early 80s when VCRs came on the scene.

   Shawn.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Fred Squires]

> and if group showing is illegal then how do sports bars and public
> places with televisions playing get away with it?  when i go to Smoky
> Bones BBQ for dinner i see several tvs playing various programs and
> there is definitely a large group there.  or is that ok as long as it
> isn't prerecorded?

Businesses have to pay licensing fees to have TV.

-- 
I probably still have a few (well, now a whole bunch) gmail invites.
Drop me a line (off list) if you'd like an account.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Pete Stagman]

Hi Everyone,

I'm in contact with a reporter from techtarget as I'm writing this.
www.techtarget.com
They may be interested in doing a story on MythTV and the broadcast
flag. (After I dropped a dime of course). Don't know if this will
actually fly, but I'm giving it a shot.

Is anyone interested in being interviewed? I'd love to have them talk
to Isaac of course. Maybe Jarod?

It'd be real nice to have them on our side.

--Pete


On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 08:37:56 -0700, Shawn Willden
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Andy Long wrote:
> 
> >Since a copy has to be transfixed to a medium to receive copyright,
> >how exactly does broadcasting qualify?  This isn't an attack against
> >you, just something I have oft wondered.
> >
> 
> The show gets copyright protection when it is first fixed in tangible
> medium by the production team.
> 
> The legalities around broadcasting copyrighted materials constitute a
> huge portion of US Title 17, the copyright law (see
> http://copyright.gov).  In general, only the copyright owner can
> authorize broadcasts and certainly doesn't lose copyright by doing it.
> 
> Shawn.
> ___
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
> 


-- 
Lirc, FC3, and an Irblaster?
www.lircsetup.com
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Andrew Close]

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 08:33:34 -0700, Shawn Willden 


> That means that it's *very* important right now that everyone who cares
> about this issue be pushing the meme that it *should* be okay to copy
> broadcast TV shows (as long as you're not doing it commercially, or for
> "group" showings -- I think those are reasonable restrictions).  We need
> to make sure that every American "knows" that it's okay so that when the
> question goes back to Congress, we'll have some support.

i still don't quite get this.  if i invite 20 ppl over to watch 'Lost'
on Weds night isn't that a group showing?  i'm not profiting, peddling
or gaining in any way other than enjoying a show with a 'group' of
friends.
and if group showing is illegal then how do sports bars and public
places with televisions playing get away with it?  when i go to Smoky
Bones BBQ for dinner i see several tvs playing various programs and
there is definitely a large group there.  or is that ok as long as it
isn't prerecorded?
and if that's the case then won't renting movies from Blockbuster
become illegal if i'm there picking out a movie with my family?  it
will be a group viewing when we get home...
unemployment should virtually disappear in the next couple years
because everyone will be able to get a job in some area of law
inforcement so that there are enough officers to enforce this
silliness...

-
a 'whole lotta' GMail Invites available
Please Email me OFF-list only...
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Shawn Willden]

Andy Long wrote:
Since a copy has to be transfixed to a medium to receive copyright,
how exactly does broadcasting qualify?  This isn't an attack against
you, just something I have oft wondered.
The show gets copyright protection when it is first fixed in tangible 
medium by the production team.

The legalities around broadcasting copyrighted materials constitute a 
huge portion of US Title 17, the copyright law (see 
http://copyright.gov).  In general, only the copyright owner can 
authorize broadcasts and certainly doesn't lose copyright by doing it.

   Shawn.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Shawn Willden]

Andy Long wrote:
No, this is not "rightly" something that media companies should be
allowed to prevent.  Under current law, they CAN'T prevent it.  It is
perfectly legal of you to lend a copy of a movie/TV show to a friend
to borrow and watch. 

Unfortunately, it's not clear that this is true.
IANAL, but I have read Title 17 a few times and I have done a little 
research.

As I understand it, the "black-letter law" doesn't explicitly provide 
for sharing.  Instead, it defines a vague category of Fair Use, with a 
four-part test courts have to use to decide if a particular copying or 
derivative work-creation activity is Fair Use.

Recording a show off of the TV and sharing it with a limited number of 
friends, without commercial gain was basically determined to be Fair Use 
by the US Supreme Court in the Betamax decision in 1984.  Sony argued 
that although the law didn't say this sort of use was legal, that a 
tradition had been established by audio cassette recorders.  The 
argument was upheld by the District court, reversed on appeal and then 
re-upheld by the USSC.

That Betamax decision, plus the First Sale doctrine, is the basis for 
the argument that you can copy a broadcast and loan it to a friend.

However, that was in 1984.  Copyright law has changed twice since then, 
with the passage of the CTEA and the DMCA.  I don't know if any 
provisions of the CTEA affect this, but the DMCA certainly does.  If the 
courts were to decide that the broadcast flag is a "copy-protection 
device", then manufacturing and selling any device that "circumvents" it 
would be illegal.  There are no Fair Use exceptions to the 
anti-circumvention provisions in current copyright law.

And what's worse is that even though the courts look to be slapping down 
the FCC's decision to implement and enforce the Broadcast Flag, on the 
grounds that the FCC is not authorized to make law, only implement it, 
Big Media might still be able to get it by going back to Congress.  They 
tried that once, and it didn't take, but that doesn't mean they won't 
try again.

That means that it's *very* important right now that everyone who cares 
about this issue be pushing the meme that it *should* be okay to copy 
broadcast TV shows (as long as you're not doing it commercially, or for 
"group" showings -- I think those are reasonable restrictions).  We need 
to make sure that every American "knows" that it's okay so that when the 
question goes back to Congress, we'll have some support.

And it's also important to support the Digital Consumer's Bill of Rights 
(digitalconsumer.org).  Getting that passed would put all of these fears 
to rest.

   Shawn.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Ol' Schoola]

Andy Long wrote:
Would you assert that when you have friends
over, they shouldn't be allowed to watch TV at your house because they
don't help pay your cable bill?  If you are the person who rents a
movie at blockbuster, should your wife/girlfriend/kids have to also
rent the movie before they can sit down and watch it with you?
You forgot to mention how they'll need to have purchased their own 
crypto'd TV/plasma/projo with a biometric scanner before they can watch 
it with you.

Face it. There's a lot of addicts out there. If their display asked them 
to drop trowsers, turn to the left and cough, they'd still do it just to 
get their fix.

--
Meatwad
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[David Levine]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:07:46 -0500, Neil Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 07:27:20PM +, Allan Stirling wrote:
> >I'm trying to imagine a world where a DVR without timeshifting is
> >anything other than a dumb cable box. Nope. It's not happening. Clues? ;)
> 
> I'm sure you will still be able to timeshift infomercials.
> 

Yes, in general I don't think that networks want to prevent
time-shifting.  If time-shifting allows them to get higher ratings,
then they are pro-time-shifting.  What they want to be able to do is
prevent commercial skipping and prevent output to a permanent digital
archive (i.e. burning to a DVD or something).  Also they want to be
able to expire your PVR'd copy of the show automatically.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Jay R. Ashworth]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 10:41:31AM -0800, Geoff Scott wrote:
> Given one of the posters thoughts, which I think are really good, how
> about something like:
> 
> "The Big Media Companies are about to buy you.  The Government is
> about to sell you.  Do you want to be a digital slave?"
> 
> or
> 
> "Imagine a world with no fast forward buttons"
> 
> I dunno, I'm grasping here...

And not badly, either.

Gimme the weekend; lemme see what I can do with those.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Designer  Baylink RFC 2100
Ashworth & AssociatesThe Things I Think'87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA  http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274

  If you can read this... thank a system adminstrator.  Or two.  --me
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Jay R. Ashworth]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 11:56:29AM -0500, Brian J. Murrell wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 11:47 -0500, Maverick wrote:
> > Will MythTV obey the broadcast flag if it where to become law? Being
> > an open source project, seems like everyone would just remove that
> > section of code using "illegal" patches.
> 
> You are missing the point of the problem.  Software like Myth will not
> even get access to the content to strip/remove/skip/ignore the flag.
> The knowledge (i.e. programming specs) needed to get the information
> from the HDTV capture card will not be available to a project like Myth
> for those very reasons.

Alas, Brian, even *you* are missing the point.  ;-)

My understanding of the requirements of the broadcast flag are that
hardware implementations like those on tuner cards, *would be required
to do the filterinf (forcing down-convert) *inside the silicon of the
card* -- there's some question as to whether even firmware is secure
enough.

It's akin to cellular scanners (which, incidentally, are *still*
illegal, even though maybe as much as 0.5% of cell phone calls are at
800-Analog these days): you couldn't just put in a jumper that user's
could clip: you had to program the blocks inside a chip.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Designer  Baylink RFC 2100
Ashworth & AssociatesThe Things I Think'87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA  http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274

  If you can read this... thank a system adminstrator.  Or two.  --me
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Neil Watson]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 07:27:20PM +, Allan Stirling wrote:
I'm trying to imagine a world where a DVR without timeshifting is 
anything other than a dumb cable box. Nope. It's not happening. Clues? ;)
I'm sure you will still be able to timeshift infomercials.
--
Neil Watson   | Gentoo Linux
Network Administrator | Uptime 49 days
http://watson-wilson.ca   | 2.6.10 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Jay R. Ashworth]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 11:52:25AM -0500, Brian J. Murrell wrote:
> In the case of CSS, why does the average consumer care?  They can buy
> their DVD players (and they are damn cheap now) and their DVDs and play
> them.  "What's the problem?"  That some future company cannot do
> something revolutionary and cool with DVD technology does not affect
> their day to day life.  They don't miss the future possibilities they
> don't already have.

And indeed, this is precisely the point that the writer makes.

But this curve is going up *so* fast, that it's a bit easier than it's
been in the past, IMHO.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Designer  Baylink RFC 2100
Ashworth & AssociatesThe Things I Think'87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA  http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274

  If you can read this... thank a system adminstrator.  Or two.  --me
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Aaron Stewart]

Goes with the territory.. Corporations have been fighting technology since
the dawn of time.. Ref: Audio Cassettes, Video Cassettes, CDs, DVDs, MP3,
and now digital video.

I can't think of any circumstance where they've won.  You can't fight the
progress of technology.  You can try, but you'll lose.  There will always
be workarounds.

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Neil Watson wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 10:41:31AM -0800, Geoff Scott wrote:
> >Given one of the posters thoughts, which I think are really good, how
> >about something like:
> >
> >"The Big Media Companies are about to buy you.  The Government is
> >about to sell you.  Do you want to be a digital slave?"
> >
> >or
> >
> >"Imagine a world with no fast forward buttons"
>
> Ultimately the broadcast flag will take away our VCRs.  VCRs will be
> phased out in favour of DVRs which, when honouring the broadcast flag,
> will be less functional.  No more time shifting.
>
> Ultimately, I think this law will fail.  Even if it's passed, there will
> be mass civil disobedience.  There will be a work around.  There always
> is.  People will simply buy offshore devices that shipped in brown paper
> boxes.
>
>

___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Brad Templeton]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 11:56:29AM -0500, Brian J. Murrell wrote:
> You are missing the point of the problem.  Software like Myth will not
> even get access to the content to strip/remove/skip/ignore the flag.
> The knowledge (i.e. programming specs) needed to get the information
> from the HDTV capture card will not be available to a project like Myth
> for those very reasons.
> 
> Sure, it could be reverse engineered for every device out there but
> that's a long hard road.

It's a very complex path.  Somebody could build a box using mythtv which
complies with the broadcast flag.  It would have to be a "locked" box
like the Tivo (which also is just a PVR application running on linux)
where the user does not have access to the OS or files, just the ability
to run the application.   It would have to store all video on disk
encrypted (as the tivo does) to prevent you from opening the box and
taking out the hard disk full of unencrypted video files.

Not only can this be done, but that's how all cable set top boxes and
satellite boxes etc. are going to be required to work if they want to
get broadcast digital TV and are sold after July 1.

Nothing stops such a box from running Myth.  The GPL only requires that
the vendor of the box publish the source to any changes they make to
myth or linux.You will be able to read the code where they block
you from access, but not change it.

Like the Tivo series 2, such boxes will probably (if they want to get
approval from satellite companies or cable companies) have a ROM that
checksums the kernel before booting, to assure the user has not
changed the code on the disk.Tivo users found a way around this but
it took them lots of work.  You can also replace the roms in some
cases.  Defeating some of these tricks may be a DMCA violation however,
especially if it gets you access to data that's supposed to be encypted.

As noted the GPL does not stop somebody from building a locked box, an
embedded system, using GPLd code.   It may or may not piss off the
developers -- and frankly I would not want to be building such a box with
the developers pissed off at me -- but that's to be seen.  For example,
linux core developers did not seem very bothered that Tivo comes with
a linux inside that users are unable to modify.


---

To another point in this thread, explaining to consumers why the flag
is bad.  Alas, it doesn't stop you from doing rewind/ff.  Locked boxes
can do anything they want as long as they don't leak out the unencrypted
digital video in full-res form.Locked boxes get another big leg-up,
because for digital cable and satellite, they get access to the raw
compressed streams from those services, no need for any mpeg encoder at
all.  So consumers will buy them.

The real danger is more subtle -- it's the death of innovation.

Compare a DVD player from 10 years ago to one today, and look at the
features for playing videos.   They are almost identical, just a lot cheaper
today.  10 years and almost no innovation.  Compare that to all the other
technologies in media!

MythTV seems to add a new feature several times a week. Compare that to
the locked boxes like the Tivo, or Scientific Atlanta etc.

That's the real killer and it's hard to show folks.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Allan Stirling]

Ultimately the broadcast flag will take away our VCRs.  VCRs will be
phased out in favour of DVRs which, when honouring the broadcast flag,
will be less functional.  No more time shifting.
I'm trying to imagine a world where a DVR without timeshifting is 
anything other than a dumb cable box. Nope. It's not happening. Clues? ;)

Cheers,
Allan.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Mark L. Cukier]

I agree 100%-- it is my duty to disobey a law that a large consensus of 
reasonable people agree is unjust. This is the whole basis for civil 
disobedience, etc.

I'm sorry, but if someone is going to tell me that it's illegal for me 
to record cable (that I pay for) and record/fast forward/rewind any of 
the content that they've broadcast to me... that's just ridiculous. Laws 
like this make me extremely angry!! This is about congress pandering to 
those-who-donate-- and laws that are bought/sold are intrinsicly unjust!

Regardless, I think all this worrying may be pointless at this point. a) 
I would bet my bottom dollar that this will eventually fizzle and b) 
even if it doesn't, it'll just get hacked. Granted, it will be a pretty 
big bummer to have to be a felon in order to pause my TV while I go the 
bathroom, but such is the price of being on the bleeding edge :-D

- Mark
Jason Werpy wrote:
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:07:17 -0500, Mark L. Cukier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 

Currently I would NEVER consider getting a "black box"-- I'm not going
to steal cable. But, once the "black boxes" output a signal with the
flag filtered out... well, I'll still pay for my cable but I'll
definitely have a black box!
:-D
   

This reminds me of an add they run on my cable where a guy is
interviewing for a job.  Then the interviewer notes that he has a
criminal record.  The inverviewee says "Oh that, I just had one of
those cable descramblers, its was no big deal".  The interviewer looks
at him and says well this interview is over, or something like that. 
Then cue the ominous "Cable Theft, its a Crime," voice over.  Every
time and I mean EVERY time I see this add I can just hear them
replacing the line about stealing cable with "I just recorded a show
to watch later with my PVR", and replacing the cable theft line with
"Recoding HD TV, its a Crime."

At that point I just shake my head, because I know thats exactly how
Big Media wants it to be.  But I do still know one thing, I will do
everything in my power to never ever honor the copy bit, no matter
what.
 


___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
 


--
--

*Mark L. Cukier*, /Design Engineer/  
P&E Microcomputer Systems   
710 Commonwealth Avenue
Boston, MA 02215  
_
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
phone : (617) 353-9206 x19
fax   :   (617) 353-9205
_

visit us on the web at: http: //www.pemicro.com

___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Mark L. Cukier]

LEIA: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will 
slip through your fingers

Neil Watson wrote:
On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 10:41:31AM -0800, Geoff Scott wrote:
Given one of the posters thoughts, which I think are really good, how
about something like:
"The Big Media Companies are about to buy you.  The Government is
about to sell you.  Do you want to be a digital slave?"
or
"Imagine a world with no fast forward buttons"

Ultimately the broadcast flag will take away our VCRs.  VCRs will be
phased out in favour of DVRs which, when honouring the broadcast flag,
will be less functional.  No more time shifting.
Ultimately, I think this law will fail.  Even if it's passed, there will
be mass civil disobedience.  There will be a work around.  There always
is.  People will simply buy offshore devices that shipped in brown paper
boxes. 


___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
 


--
--

*Mark L. Cukier*, /Design Engineer/  
P&E Microcomputer Systems   
710 Commonwealth Avenue
Boston, MA 02215  
_
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
phone : (617) 353-9206 x19
fax   :   (617) 353-9205
_

visit us on the web at: http: //www.pemicro.com

___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Jason Werpy]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:07:17 -0500, Mark L. Cukier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Currently I would NEVER consider getting a "black box"-- I'm not going
> to steal cable. But, once the "black boxes" output a signal with the
> flag filtered out... well, I'll still pay for my cable but I'll
> definitely have a black box!
> 
> :-D
> 
> 

This reminds me of an add they run on my cable where a guy is
interviewing for a job.  Then the interviewer notes that he has a
criminal record.  The inverviewee says "Oh that, I just had one of
those cable descramblers, its was no big deal".  The interviewer looks
at him and says well this interview is over, or something like that. 
Then cue the ominous "Cable Theft, its a Crime," voice over.  Every
time and I mean EVERY time I see this add I can just hear them
replacing the line about stealing cable with "I just recorded a show
to watch later with my PVR", and replacing the cable theft line with
"Recoding HD TV, its a Crime."

At that point I just shake my head, because I know thats exactly how
Big Media wants it to be.  But I do still know one thing, I will do
everything in my power to never ever honor the copy bit, no matter
what.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Neil Watson]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 10:41:31AM -0800, Geoff Scott wrote:
Given one of the posters thoughts, which I think are really good, how
about something like:
"The Big Media Companies are about to buy you.  The Government is
about to sell you.  Do you want to be a digital slave?"
or
"Imagine a world with no fast forward buttons"
Ultimately the broadcast flag will take away our VCRs.  VCRs will be
phased out in favour of DVRs which, when honouring the broadcast flag,
will be less functional.  No more time shifting.
Ultimately, I think this law will fail.  Even if it's passed, there will
be mass civil disobedience.  There will be a work around.  There always
is.  People will simply buy offshore devices that shipped in brown paper
boxes.  

--
Neil Watson   | Gentoo Linux
Network Administrator | Uptime 49 days
http://watson-wilson.ca   | 2.6.10 AMD Athlon(tm) MP 2000+ x 2
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Maverick]

> > > Can't we just use scare tactics?
> >
> > What would you scare the average consumer with?  If you have an idea,
> > you might have the magic bullet.
>
> Given one of the posters thoughts, which I think are really good, how
> about something like:
> 
> "The Big Media Companies are about to buy you.  The Government is
> about to sell you.  Do you want to be a digital slave?"
> 
> or
> 
> "Imagine a world with no fast forward buttons"
> 
> I dunno, I'm grasping here...

Works for me. I think a good mythtv commercial would be:

"If you had MythTV, you wouldn't be watching this commercial..."

or

"Buy a MythTV now or we'll force you to watch commercials!"

:)

-Kenneth
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Geoff Scott]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:58:17 -0500, Brian J. Murrell
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 09:44 -0800, Geoff Scott wrote:
> >
> > Can't we just use scare tactics?
> 
> What would you scare the average consumer with?  If you have an idea,
> you might have the magic bullet.
> 
> b.
> 

Given one of the posters thoughts, which I think are really good, how
about something like:

"The Big Media Companies are about to buy you.  The Government is
about to sell you.  Do you want to be a digital slave?"

or

"Imagine a world with no fast forward buttons"

I dunno, I'm grasping here...

gs

-- 
I have some G-Mail invites.
Let me know if you want one.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Michael Chmilar]

--- Andy Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What about the case of
> broadcast television or OTA-HD content.  No one pays a nickel for
> that, and never have, yet I haven't seen NBC, ABC, FOX, CBS or any
> others go belly up.

The networks make their money by selling you (the audience) to
advertisers. If your recording contains the commercials, and you
don't have a mechanism for skipping or excising the commercials, then
watching or sharing your recording has not done any harm to the
networks. You are just helping them with additional distribution of
the advertisements.

As to the larger debate: U.S. copyright is a very sensible and
workable law (except for the "extensions" that media companies have
won). The problem with the broadcast flag is that it is far more
restrictive than copyright law. The broadcast flag prevents "fair
use" of media, which is legal according to copyright law.

As to the "cracking" of HDTV receivers that adhere to the broadcast
flag: This is where the DMCA comes into play. It is illegal to
circumvent a copyright protection mechanism. The protection mechanism
can be pathetically "weak" (such as the DVD CSS protection), but that
does not matter. While this does not prevent the underground from
distributing the information about cracking, it does stop
manufacturers and importers from selling a pre-cracked plug 'n' play
device to the masses, in the U.S.

The FCC broadcast flag proposal does mandate that devices be
reasonably secure against cracking, which probably means the
protection mechanism must be stronger than DVD CSS. It also stops an
HDTV card maker from adding a weak mechanism, and then "leaking" the
simple crack to the web.

___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Maverick]

> > Can't we just use scare tactics?
> 
> What would you scare the average consumer with?  If you have an idea,
> you might have the magic bullet.

Sadly, that probably would be most effective. I know a lot of people
are addicted to TV, but I wouldn't die if it just stopped existing in
all forms. Internet access, well, that's a whole different thing. One
week without it and I'm a crack head looking for a free hit, in a mad
panic to find the nearest cyber cafe to juice my laptop into some
wi-fi internet accessing love. Man, I'm part of the internet
generation, not TV-land. In fact, I'd say 5 hours of tv a week, 50+
hours of Internet a week, depending on how much I work. Whoa, they
should have pills for this condition! :)

-Kenneth
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Risto Treksler]

On Thursday 03 March 2005 10:01 am, Allan Stirling wrote:
> Matt Grommes wrote:
> > Yes, thank you. The willingness people have to just cave to anything the
> > media industry says is very disheartening. We need to have some common
> > sense about these things and not just allow industry to dictate the
> > features and uses we're "allowed" to have.
>
> Following this to absurdity, if what you are stating is legal, only one
> person in the US would have to subscribe to each of the available
> channels. They could then share out all the programs with their friends,
> who could share out to their friends.

*puts on tinfoil hat*

Let's put it this way, it's no more illegal to lend a copy of a Buffy tape to 
your friend, than it is for you to lend a copy of your LOTR DVD, or even 
something like a sweater that you bought.

The idea is that consumers have a fair use clause in the law, so that they can 
make a copy, and use it "fairly". ie. "do with it, what you can do with 
anything else you bought"

This quickly becomes a question of "what is for sale"
ie "what is the product" and "who are the consumers"

The consumers and the networks are operating under two completely different 
sets of assumptions here.

1)Lending Buffy to your friend, like you can lend any other DVD,
implies that the copy of Buffy was the product and it was sold to you by the 
networks, and that you paid for it by watching ads or paying for cable or 
whatever.

2)Not being able to lend Buffy to your friend implies that 
you were the product, and you were sold to the advertisers by the networks, 
and that the advertisers paid large amounts of MONEY to the networks, for 
their "product" -- you.

People see that the shows have ads in them.
To the advertisers and the networks the ads have shows interjected.

Something has to be done about this mentality, 
in order to defeat the broadcast flag.
People have to reassert them as consumers in the broadcast model.

The masses have to realize that the broadcast flag entails legalized 
exploitation of consumers, but i am afraid, as is the author of this article, 
that since their future "rights" are in question, they won't until it's too 
late.

*ducks*
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Brian J. Murrell]

On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 09:44 -0800, Geoff Scott wrote:
> 
> Can't we just use scare tactics?

What would you scare the average consumer with?  If you have an idea,
you might have the magic bullet.

b.



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Geoff Scott]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:24:57 -0500, Maverick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I put my name on the Firefox ad, I'd do the same for a MythTV supported cause.
> 
> I agree with Brian, getting people to care is the real problem.
> 
> -Kenneth
> 

Can't we just use scare tactics?

gs

-- 
I have some G-Mail invites.
Let me know if you want one.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Andy Long]

Cable isn't losing money throught people sharing TV shows.  The
networks maybe are (and that is risky).  What about the case of
broadcast television or OTA-HD content.  No one pays a nickel for
that, and never have, yet I haven't seen NBC, ABC, FOX, CBS or any
others go belly up.

Most people pay for cable because its convenient.  If the networks all
decided to distribute their shows over bit torrent and everyone went
that route, then tough shit for the cable companies.  It's not like
they have some right to exist, nor are we indebted to them. 
Innovation has changed how content was distributed before, and it will
do so again.  The broadcast flag is just an attempt by the networks to
keep from having to switch to a new method of distribution, because
when that happens some of the old hats in the industry might lose
money.  We are *slowly* seeing the music industry come around to this
notion that if you sell the people what they want, they won't do it
illegally.

If only one person in the country paid for cable and then shared the
shows, don't you think content creators/copyright holders would
realize that? In such an instance, where everyone has shown preference
for getting TV/movies via the internet, which would you say is better:
 prosecuting everyone and making them get cable, or putting content in
the form people want and letting them access it that way?  It's
something that could still be charged for.  It just takes a different
business model to do it.  Just because people are choosing to get
their content in a different way doesn't mean that it should
inherently be illegal.  It just means the market is changing, and the
law should allow the market to find its happy medium.


On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:01:12 +, Allan Stirling
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matt Grommes wrote:
> > Yes, thank you. The willingness people have to just cave to anything the
> > media industry says is very disheartening. We need to have some common
> > sense about these things and not just allow industry to dictate the
> > features and uses we're "allowed" to have.
> 
> Following this to absurdity, if what you are stating is legal, only one
> person in the US would have to subscribe to each of the available
> channels. They could then share out all the programs with their friends,
> who could share out to their friends.
> 
> I really wouldn't want to have that person's cable bill.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Allan.
> ___
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Brian J. Murrell]

On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 12:24 -0500, Maverick wrote:
> 
> OK, so the software decoding driver on the pcHDTV would have to be
> patched?

cracked you mean?  to strip the flag?  i guess that would fall under the
category of the legislation that says that a manufacturer of a device
needs to make it "not easy" to break.  i wonder who decides what is easy
and what is difficult and who was negligent in this aspect of the law.

>  Big deal. It really just sucks for closed source/hardware
> things and just makes it a pain for the open sourcers. I really hope
> there's no future for the broadcast flag, it's just the dumbest idea
> ever.

uhm.  yeah.

b.



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Maverick]

> > Will MythTV obey the broadcast flag if it where to become law? Being
> > an open source project, seems like everyone would just remove that
> > section of code using "illegal" patches.
> 
> You are missing the point of the problem.  Software like Myth will not
> even get access to the content to strip/remove/skip/ignore the flag.
> The knowledge (i.e. programming specs) needed to get the information
> from the HDTV capture card will not be available to a project like Myth
> for those very reasons.
> 
> Sure, it could be reverse engineered for every device out there but
> that's a long hard road.

OK, so the software decoding driver on the pcHDTV would have to be
patched? Big deal. It really just sucks for closed source/hardware
things and just makes it a pain for the open sourcers. I really hope
there's no future for the broadcast flag, it's just the dumbest idea
ever.

Next in news, "DMV mandates driver flag on automobiles. You'll only be
able to retrieve your car from your garage when the state allows, thus
eliminating traffic congestion. As part of the bill, sharing vehicles
with friends will also become illegal."

> Is there we start the drive to put a firefox-like add in the NYT?
>
> I hate the flag, and I hate the greed it's come to represent.

I put my name on the Firefox ad, I'd do the same for a MythTV supported cause.

I agree with Brian, getting people to care is the real problem.

-Kenneth
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Andy Long]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:57:20 +, Allan Stirling
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Andy Long wrote:
> >> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:09:36 +, Allan Stirling
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>REALLY gets my back up. Again. This is what the media companies are
> >>trying to (rightly) prevent with the broadcast flag.
> >
> > No, this is not "rightly" something that media companies should be
> > allowed to prevent.  Under current law, they CAN'T prevent it.  It is
> > perfectly legal of you to lend a copy of a movie/TV show to a friend
> > to borrow and watch.
> 
>  From my reading, this only applies to the FIRST copy (ie the original
> work, as broadcast). Does anyone have a reference for this allowance to
> lend a non-derivative copy?

Since a copy has to be transfixed to a medium to receive copyright,
how exactly does broadcasting qualify?  This isn't an attack against
you, just something I have oft wondered.  Nonetheless, it seems to be
splitting hairs on an issue.  So, if you don't own the original
filmstock a movie was shown on, but instead only own the DVD, no one
should be able to watch it with you?  Your friends shouldn't be
allowed to borrow it?  The DVD is not the original copy.  It is only a
copy of the original copy transfixed on a different medium.

By similar logic, it would seem libraries across the country are
committing mass infringement, since I know of few libraries that hand
out original manuscripts.  Any I have been too hand out copies of
copies (read: books).  And if you tape music off Top 40 radio and lend
it to a friend, is that a copyright offense?   I am certainly not a
lawyer (yet), but it would seem that even if this is what copyright
has come to mean, that we are letting fair use be destroyed in the
name of protecting a legal fiction (aka intellectual property).

I am certainly not advocating mass infringement, but let's be
reasonable here.  The framers of our Constitution intended for their
to be a balanced, "leaky" copyright system.  Perfect control over
Intellectual Property was never intended, and in fact was outright
rejected by both Madison and Jefferson as a bad idea.  The purpose of
copyright was to give incentive to produce while allowing for the
transfer of ideas from person to person.  We certianly have a system
that MORE than compensates the originator of a work.  The broadcast
flag only further upsets this balance by making us come more near to
perfect control of IP, which I - as well as many others - believe is
both unhealthy for maintaining a creative environment and a bad
principle for a democratic country.  In every other instance where a
new form of technology has upset the previous scheme of distributing
copyrighted material (player pianos, radio, television, cable, VCRs,
etc...), we have relied on the market to find the solution, not
imposed government regulations to keep the powers that be in business.

> 
> > Would you assert that when you have friends
> > over, they shouldn't be allowed to watch TV at your house because they
> > don't help pay your cable bill?  If you are the person who rents a
> > movie at blockbuster, should your wife/girlfriend/kids have to also
> > rent the movie before they can sit down and watch it with you?
> These are all seperate issues, since you are watching either the first
> copy, or timeshifting for your own personal use.
> 
> > The
> > broadcast flag is trying to enforce a legal lie that you are the only
> > person who should be allowed to watch content that came from your
> > television, when both previously written law and common law say
> > otherwise.
> 
> > What she advocates doing is legal, and should remain legal
> > as a form of fair use.
> >
> Again, references. The only one I can find that answers this specific
> question is:
> 
> http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=434043
> 
> Which says this is *not* legal.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Allan.
> ___
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Aaron Stewart]

Close, but not quite..

IIRC, the law still prohibits "group" viewing, which is a gathering of
over 12 people.. That law applies to commercially available DVDs, VHS, as
well as recordings of shows.

It also seems to me that the new law would only prohibit *selling* of
devices that don't obey the new flag.. Meaning, you could build your own
device, just not market it.

And I'd imagine that at some point we'll see some kind of inline device
that would attach to your cable before your tv/tv card/box that strips out
the broadcast flag, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.

I'd also like to note that while the article in the SF Guardian has some
merit, the EFF tends to go off the deepend a bit.. They have a great
cause, and I applaud them for upholding it, but they go overboard far too
often, which lends them less credibility in political circles than is
their due.

-=Aaron

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Allan Stirling wrote:

> Matt Grommes wrote:
> > Yes, thank you. The willingness people have to just cave to anything the
> > media industry says is very disheartening. We need to have some common
> > sense about these things and not just allow industry to dictate the
> > features and uses we're "allowed" to have.
>
> Following this to absurdity, if what you are stating is legal, only one
> person in the US would have to subscribe to each of the available
> channels. They could then share out all the programs with their friends,
> who could share out to their friends.
>
> I really wouldn't want to have that person's cable bill.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Allan.
> ___
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>

___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Allan Stirling]

Matt Grommes wrote:
Yes, thank you. The willingness people have to just cave to anything the 
media industry says is very disheartening. We need to have some common 
sense about these things and not just allow industry to dictate the 
features and uses we're "allowed" to have.
Following this to absurdity, if what you are stating is legal, only one 
person in the US would have to subscribe to each of the available 
channels. They could then share out all the programs with their friends, 
who could share out to their friends.

I really wouldn't want to have that person's cable bill.
Cheers,
Allan.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Allan Stirling]

Andy Long wrote:
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:09:36 +, Allan Stirling
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

REALLY gets my back up. Again. This is what the media companies are
trying to (rightly) prevent with the broadcast flag. 
No, this is not "rightly" something that media companies should be
allowed to prevent.  Under current law, they CAN'T prevent it.  It is
perfectly legal of you to lend a copy of a movie/TV show to a friend
to borrow and watch.  
From my reading, this only applies to the FIRST copy (ie the original 
work, as broadcast). Does anyone have a reference for this allowance to 
lend a non-derivative copy?

Would you assert that when you have friends
over, they shouldn't be allowed to watch TV at your house because they
don't help pay your cable bill?  If you are the person who rents a
movie at blockbuster, should your wife/girlfriend/kids have to also
rent the movie before they can sit down and watch it with you? 
These are all seperate issues, since you are watching either the first 
copy, or timeshifting for your own personal use.

The
broadcast flag is trying to enforce a legal lie that you are the only
person who should be allowed to watch content that came from your
television, when both previously written law and common law say
otherwise.  

What she advocates doing is legal, and should remain legal
as a form of fair use.
Again, references. The only one I can find that answers this specific 
question is:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=434043
Which says this is *not* legal.
Cheers,
Allan.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Brian J. Murrell]

On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 11:47 -0500, Maverick wrote:
> 
> Will MythTV obey the broadcast flag if it where to become law? Being
> an open source project, seems like everyone would just remove that
> section of code using "illegal" patches.

You are missing the point of the problem.  Software like Myth will not
even get access to the content to strip/remove/skip/ignore the flag.
The knowledge (i.e. programming specs) needed to get the information
from the HDTV capture card will not be available to a project like Myth
for those very reasons.

Sure, it could be reverse engineered for every device out there but
that's a long hard road.

b.



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Brian J. Murrell]

On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 08:39 -0800, Geoff Scott wrote:
> 
> Is there we start the drive to put a firefox-like add in the NYT?
> 
> I hate the flag, and I hate the greed it's come to represent.

The problem with this issue and all like it (CSS for example just as the
article mentions) is that most people don't really care.  They don't
understand the issue to start with and even if they do, they still don't
understand why they should care.

In the case of CSS, why does the average consumer care?  They can buy
their DVD players (and they are damn cheap now) and their DVDs and play
them.  "What's the problem?"  That some future company cannot do
something revolutionary and cool with DVD technology does not affect
their day to day life.  They don't miss the future possibilities they
don't already have.

You have to break that barrier to get any mass movement on these kinds
of issues.

It's like what a friend of my girlfriend's said when I tried to get her
to use jabber (and spread the use to her "contacts") rather than MSN and
ICQ.  Even after I explained to her why using something open and
unencumbered is so important for future needs she still asked "but why
do I care?" and lamented about how ICQ did everything she cared about.

It's a hard battle.

b.



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Matt Grommes]

REALLY gets my back up. Again. This is what the media companies are
trying to (rightly) prevent with the broadcast flag. 
>
Andy Long wrote:
==
No, this is not "rightly" something that media companies should be
allowed to prevent.  Under current law, they CAN'T prevent it.  It is
perfectly legal of you to lend a copy of a movie/TV show to a friend
to borrow and watch.  Would you assert that when you have friends
over, they shouldn't be allowed to watch TV at your house because they
don't help pay your cable bill?  If you are the person who rents a
movie at blockbuster, should your wife/girlfriend/kids have to also
rent the movie before they can sit down and watch it with you?  The
broadcast flag is trying to enforce a legal lie that you are the only
person who should be allowed to watch content that came from your
television, when both previously written law and common law say
otherwise.  What she advocates doing is legal, and should remain legal
as a form of fair use.
Yes, thank you. The willingness people have to just cave to anything the 
media industry says is very disheartening. We need to have some common 
sense about these things and not just allow industry to dictate the 
features and uses we're "allowed" to have.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Maverick]

> Yeah, I thought the same thing. Perhaps we, as actual users of these
> apps/cards/etc., should write our own article, a manifesto of sorts,
> and post it somewhere highly visible. Maybe there is something already
> out there, I dunno, but with the press that this keeps getting, an
> update may be in order.

Probably a good idea, but the MythTV site pretty much defines where it
stands without the need for 'press releases'. Hehe However misleading
the attention may be, anyone seeking true will find it in the code,
I'm sure.

Will MythTV obey the broadcast flag if it where to become law? Being
an open source project, seems like everyone would just remove that
section of code using "illegal" patches.

-Kenneth
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Geoff Scott]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:39:40 -0800, Geoff Scott
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Is there we start the drive to put a firefox-like add in the NYT?
> 
> I hate the flag, and I hate the greed it's come to represent.
> 
> gs
> 

Damn, I typed too fast.  Severe caffeine deficiency.

"Is this where we start..."

gs

-- 
I have some G-Mail invites.
Let me know if you want one.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Geoff Scott]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:20:39 -0700, Garry Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I thought the same thing. Perhaps we, as actual users of these
> apps/cards/etc., should write our own article, a manifesto of sorts,
> and post it somewhere highly visible. Maybe there is something already
> out there, I dunno, but with the press that this keeps getting, an
> update may be in order.
> 
> Garry
> 

Is there we start the drive to put a firefox-like add in the NYT?

I hate the flag, and I hate the greed it's come to represent.

gs

-- 
I have some G-Mail invites.
Let me know if you want one.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Andy Long]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:09:36 +, Allan Stirling
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maverick wrote:
> > Thought some of you all might want to read...
> >
> > http://www.sfbg.com/39/22/cover_fcc.html
> >
> 
> The article is great - Mainly. However, opening with this quote:
> 
> 'ALL I WANT  is to make a high-definition copy of Buffy the Vampire
> Slayer, save it on a DVD, and loan it to my friend," says Sarah Brydon,
> looking up from a long table covered with half-built computers.
> 

==

> REALLY gets my back up. Again. This is what the media companies are
> trying to (rightly) prevent with the broadcast flag. 

==

No, this is not "rightly" something that media companies should be
allowed to prevent.  Under current law, they CAN'T prevent it.  It is
perfectly legal of you to lend a copy of a movie/TV show to a friend
to borrow and watch.  Would you assert that when you have friends
over, they shouldn't be allowed to watch TV at your house because they
don't help pay your cable bill?  If you are the person who rents a
movie at blockbuster, should your wife/girlfriend/kids have to also
rent the movie before they can sit down and watch it with you?  The
broadcast flag is trying to enforce a legal lie that you are the only
person who should be allowed to watch content that came from your
television, when both previously written law and common law say
otherwise.  What she advocates doing is legal, and should remain legal
as a form of fair use.


And MythTV is
> appearing to be referred to consistently in this light.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Allan.
> ___
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Maverick]

> The article is great - Mainly. However, opening with this quote:
> 
> 'ALL I WANT  is to make a high-definition copy of Buffy the Vampire
> Slayer, save it on a DVD, and loan it to my friend," says Sarah Brydon,
> looking up from a long table covered with half-built computers.
> 
> REALLY gets my back up. Again. This is what the media companies are
> trying to (rightly) prevent with the broadcast flag. And MythTV is
> appearing to be referred to consistently in this light.

Your right. I doubt that will never change... just a consequence of
being the best open source PVR project on the net. Then again, what's
wrong with giving an HD copy of a tv show to a friend that doesn't
have an HD antenna? If her friend had the antenna, then she would have
been able to watch the show.

It seems like making something illegal to share, that's being *aired*
unencrypted, is kind of an oxymoron.

Let's face it, the only reason these companies (the one's with the
gun, I mean money, in the FCC's back) want the broadcast flag is so
they can produce more of those store shelf hogging "TV seasons on DVD"
and sell them to you for $40+ a season.

-Kenneth
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Garry Cook]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:09:36 +, Allan Stirling
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maverick wrote:
> > Thought some of you all might want to read...
> >
> > http://www.sfbg.com/39/22/cover_fcc.html
> >
> 
> The article is great - Mainly. However, opening with this quote:
> 
> 'ALL I WANT  is to make a high-definition copy of Buffy the Vampire
> Slayer, save it on a DVD, and loan it to my friend," says Sarah Brydon,
> looking up from a long table covered with half-built computers.
> 
> REALLY gets my back up. Again. This is what the media companies are
> trying to (rightly) prevent with the broadcast flag. And MythTV is
> appearing to be referred to consistently in this light.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Allan.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. Perhaps we, as actual users of these
apps/cards/etc., should write our own article, a manifesto of sorts,
and post it somewhere highly visible. Maybe there is something already
out there, I dunno, but with the press that this keeps getting, an
update may be in order.

Garry
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Allan Stirling]

Maverick wrote:
Thought some of you all might want to read...
http://www.sfbg.com/39/22/cover_fcc.html
The article is great - Mainly. However, opening with this quote:
'ALL I WANT  is to make a high-definition copy of Buffy the Vampire 
Slayer, save it on a DVD, and loan it to my friend," says Sarah Brydon, 
looking up from a long table covered with half-built computers.

REALLY gets my back up. Again. This is what the media companies are 
trying to (rightly) prevent with the broadcast flag. And MythTV is 
appearing to be referred to consistently in this light.

Cheers,
Allan.
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Mark L. Cukier]

Currently I would NEVER consider getting a "black box"-- I'm not going 
to steal cable. But, once the "black boxes" output a signal with the 
flag filtered out... well, I'll still pay for my cable but I'll 
definitely have a black box!

:-D
Maverick wrote:
Oh.  The writer is a policy analyst for EFF.  No *wonder* the piece is
so good.  :-)
   

Yeah, but he makes that plenty clear, heh.
 

Well, I blogged it, and posted it on mythtv.info; let's hope it gets
some traction in the media.  Thanks for the pointer.
   

Agreed. The whole broadcast flag thing is retarded. What ever happened
to the day where you could buy a reception device without paying for
the content? Radio, OTA TV, are all a dying breed... :(
I guess their feeling is, if the commercials are paying for the
content, and people are outsmarting the commercials (albeit still
paying for content reception in many cases), then they'll just make
you watch the commercials and not allow you to record. I guess they
forgot about the millions of people that work while "must see TV" is
being aired and require alternatives for later viewing.
-Kenneth
 


___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
 


--
--

*Mark L. Cukier*, /Design Engineer/  
P&E Microcomputer Systems   
710 Commonwealth Avenue
Boston, MA 02215  
_
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
phone : (617) 353-9206 x19
fax   :   (617) 353-9205
_

visit us on the web at: http: //www.pemicro.com

___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Maverick]

> Oh.  The writer is a policy analyst for EFF.  No *wonder* the piece is
> so good.  :-)

Yeah, but he makes that plenty clear, heh.

> Well, I blogged it, and posted it on mythtv.info; let's hope it gets
> some traction in the media.  Thanks for the pointer.

Agreed. The whole broadcast flag thing is retarded. What ever happened
to the day where you could buy a reception device without paying for
the content? Radio, OTA TV, are all a dying breed... :(

I guess their feeling is, if the commercials are paying for the
content, and people are outsmarting the commercials (albeit still
paying for content reception in many cases), then they'll just make
you watch the commercials and not allow you to record. I guess they
forgot about the millions of people that work while "must see TV" is
being aired and require alternatives for later viewing.

-Kenneth
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users

Re: [mythtv-users] Broadcast Flag Article mentions MythTV and quotes Issac

[Jay R. Ashworth]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 09:58:37AM -0500, Maverick wrote:
> Thought some of you all might want to read...
> 
> http://www.sfbg.com/39/22/cover_fcc.html

Oh.  The writer is a policy analyst for EFF.  No *wonder* the piece is
so good.  :-)

Well, I blogged it, and posted it on mythtv.info; let's hope it gets
some traction in the media.  Thanks for the pointer.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Designer  Baylink RFC 2100
Ashworth & AssociatesThe Things I Think'87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA  http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274

  If you can read this... thank a system adminstrator.  Or two.  --me
___
mythtv-users mailing list
mythtv-users@mythtv.org
http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users