[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie multimeter

[Cobra007]

That sounds awesome!

I just wonder why your summing register would overflow after 500
samples. If you have a 10 bit A/D converter, summing 500 squared
samples would only require 29 bits. That is a very odd number, so
there must be something wrong here. Is the 10 bit value a signed value
or unsigned?

You should define z as a double (32 bit) and also your summing
register as a double. Then you should have enough bits for 4096
samples.

Anyway even with just 500 samples, it is clear that the measurement is
far superior to your DMM measurement (which was to be expected).

Michel


On Jun 10, 5:57 am, Tobias  wrote:
> Gentlemen
>
> After a very long week I am happy to say that the last three hours
> playing with my Nixie Multi Meter were very rewarding!
> We finished the code.
>
> The long sum was overflowing after 500 or so measurements, so I had to
> divide it by 10 before squaring it. The final result shown on the
> serial monitor is in centivolts, if that makes any sense.
>
> I did only two experiments so far: using a 1,5V cell showed.. 1,52V!
> and my DMM showed 1,523V. Not bad.
> And the one Martin proposed. Awesome results. A little transformer
> being half-wave rectified.
>
> I took a oscilloscope shot of it that includes a RMS reading of 5,38
> V:http://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/rms_waveform.png
>
> Then my NMM, doing 512 samples in ~254 ms: 5,35 V, with a 0,05 V
> variation 
> measurements.http://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/rms_reading_512.png
>
> And @ 1024 samples in ~374 ms: 5,34 V with 0,03V variation between
> measurements.http://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/rms_reading_1024.png
>
> My RMS(!) DMM was reading 3,635 V! +_+
>
> I will write a piece of code that changes between the averaging
> function David talked about and the 10bits no-averaging mode AD for
> the RMS measurement.
>
> Now I think I need to build a precision rectifier for the input, so I
> can read AC voltages.
>
> Thanks everybody!
>
> Tobias
>
> On Jun 6, 1:53 am, Dekatron42  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Don't forget to measure half-wave rectified signals to see what
> > results you get (square, sine and triangular) as that is something
> > that many RMS meters fail on.
>
> > /Martin
>
> > On 6 Juni, 00:04, Cobra007  wrote:
>
> > > That is a fabulous result!
>
> > > I think I would do the same thing, take the 1000 readings non-
> > > interrupt based. See how accurate it is, otherwise take 2000 samples,
> > > or 3000 which will only take 0.5 seconds.
>
> > > Let us know the result, measure sine waves, triangular waves and
> > > square waves.
>
> > > Michel
>
> > > On Jun 5, 11:42 pm, Tobias  wrote:
>
> > > > David: I am using the INA219 averaging at 128 samples. It is a very
> > > > good feature indeed. We are trying to get a library together with all
> > > > the functions so we can switch back and forth between some of the
> > > > features depending on what is being read from it.
>
> > > > Michel: Tests are done! I found a faster way to do the i2c. And your
> > > > math worked great reducing processing time!
> > > > I tried to run the encoder function once in a while but it did not
> > > > work. Lets say was a mistake not to put a interruption pin on my IO
> > > > header.
>
> > > > Just i2c get bus voltage:     193 ms
> > > > Using sq() function:            388 ms
> > > > Using z*=z then summing: 196 ms
> > > > Including encoder z*=z:      207 ms
>
> > > > At 207 ms for a thousand readings we have 4.8 kHz, or 80 points for a
> > > > 60Hz sine. =)
> > > > I think I will finish up the code and try to take some measurements.
>
> > > > You say doing time interrupt is going to slow this down. What about
> > > > counting all the 1000 readings and dividing by the time it took to
> > > > make them? Not a good idea?
>
> > > > Tobias
>
> > > > On 5 jun, 04:14, Cobra007  wrote:
>
> > > > > > The way to do this properly, as in how a real DMM does it, is to 
> > > > > > use a
> > > > > > dual-slope converter that will produce a useful number with every 
> > > > > > sample.
>
> > > > > > These successive approximation converters that are common as dirt 
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > days are just not very good at the job of converting a signal and
> > > > > > producing a useful number.
>
> > > > > > --
> &

[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie multimeter

[Cobra007]

That is a fabulous result!

I think I would do the same thing, take the 1000 readings non-
interrupt based. See how accurate it is, otherwise take 2000 samples,
or 3000 which will only take 0.5 seconds.

Let us know the result, measure sine waves, triangular waves and
square waves.

Michel



On Jun 5, 11:42 pm, Tobias  wrote:
> David: I am using the INA219 averaging at 128 samples. It is a very
> good feature indeed. We are trying to get a library together with all
> the functions so we can switch back and forth between some of the
> features depending on what is being read from it.
>
> Michel: Tests are done! I found a faster way to do the i2c. And your
> math worked great reducing processing time!
> I tried to run the encoder function once in a while but it did not
> work. Lets say was a mistake not to put a interruption pin on my IO
> header.
>
> Just i2c get bus voltage:     193 ms
> Using sq() function:            388 ms
> Using z*=z then summing: 196 ms
> Including encoder z*=z:      207 ms
>
> At 207 ms for a thousand readings we have 4.8 kHz, or 80 points for a
> 60Hz sine. =)
> I think I will finish up the code and try to take some measurements.
>
> You say doing time interrupt is going to slow this down. What about
> counting all the 1000 readings and dividing by the time it took to
> make them? Not a good idea?
>
> Tobias
>
> On 5 jun, 04:14, Cobra007  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > The way to do this properly, as in how a real DMM does it, is to use a
> > > dual-slope converter that will produce a useful number with every sample.
>
> > > These successive approximation converters that are common as dirt these
> > > days are just not very good at the job of converting a signal and
> > > producing a useful number.
>
> > > --
> > > David Forbes, Tucson AZ
>
> > DMMs with true RMS measurements have been discussed here before, but
> > the only proper way to measure true RMS is by following it's
> > definition.
>
> > My DMM is also true RMS, but really, any DC voltage shows as 0V RMS
> > which is by definition incorrect. Leaving out the DC component means
> > including a high pass filter, but they are not ideal, so for any
> > frequency below the specified frequencies, you cannot rely on the RMS
> > reading. Following this integral and squaring method should produce a
> > reliable reading from 0Hz up to a certain frequency.
>
> > Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie multimeter

[Cobra007]

>
> The way to do this properly, as in how a real DMM does it, is to use a
> dual-slope converter that will produce a useful number with every sample.
>
> These successive approximation converters that are common as dirt these
> days are just not very good at the job of converting a signal and
> producing a useful number.
>
> --
> David Forbes, Tucson AZ

DMMs with true RMS measurements have been discussed here before, but
the only proper way to measure true RMS is by following it's
definition.

My DMM is also true RMS, but really, any DC voltage shows as 0V RMS
which is by definition incorrect. Leaving out the DC component means
including a high pass filter, but they are not ideal, so for any
frequency below the specified frequencies, you cannot rely on the RMS
reading. Following this integral and squaring method should produce a
reliable reading from 0Hz up to a certain frequency.

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie multimeter

[Cobra007]

You should also try to avoid doing anything else but the absolute
necessity in your loop.

I think you can write a second routing dmm.getBusVoltageFast(), that
does nothing more than the absolute necessity, which is reading the 2
bytes from the INA219. No conversion or anything else needs to be done
at his stage, just read the 2 bytes and square them as quick as you
can.

You could optimize your routine like this:

  for (int x = 0; x < 1000; x++){
  //sum += sq(dmm.getBusVoltageFast());
  }

Nothing more, just that because anything else you put there is going
to be done 1000 times and chewing up time. Making
dmm.getBusVoltageFast a local procedure will also make it faster to
call than a procedure of an object. Writing it as z=getBusVoltageFast;
z *= z will most likely also be faster than sq(getBusVoltageFast), try
it out!

I think you can get double the speed if you optimize it properly.

You don't need to check the state of the encoder 1000 times per
second, just once or twice a second will be just fine.

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie multimeter

[Cobra007]

Yeah, that seems a bit slow indeed. I would normally program that in
assembler but maybe the 16x16 squaring is taking a bit of processing
time. If you would do that interrupt based, it is most likely going to
chew up a bit more capacity as well.

900 samples per second  15 samples of a 60Hz signal, doesn't sound
like much. Maybe sample 2 seconds or 4 seconds to get a better
average?

Michel





On Jun 5, 1:08 pm, Tobias  wrote:
> Michel
>
> I found on google that the i2c speed for the atmega (at least the ones
> running arduino) is around 4705 bytes per second. The INA219 requires
> 2 bytes to be read each time.
> Unfortunately this is way less than 8192 Hz already.
> If I understood the INA219 datasheet correctly, the A/D frequency for
> 10 bits is < 7 kHz, so even if one can implement a faster i2c it will
> still be less then ~8 kHz.
>
> If using the A/D pins on the atmega it gets even worse: less than 5
> kHz.
>
> So I decided to test speed first, before implementing a rectifier on
> my circuit. I wrote a simple code to make 1000 readings and display
> the time it took to make it. I am pasting the code at the end of the
> message just in case someone finds this absurd and is willing to check
> how I did it. Of course I used the nixies instead of a boring console
> terminal to display the 
> results:http://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/dscn4055.jpg
>
> 1.125 ms to read the i2c, do the square sum and watch for the encoder.
> 1.114 ms to read the i2c and do the square sum.
> 0.554 ms to just read the i2c. Or 1,8 kHz. Not that far from the value
> I found as max on the internet.
>
> So less than 900 Hz. Or 14 points during the period of a 60 Hz signal.
> Is that enough information for a 60 Hz signal?
>
> The code:
>
> case 3:
>       unit = 4;
>       scale = 6;
>       reading = millis();
>       for (int x = 0; x < 1000; x++){
>       //result = r.process(); //reads encoder
>       //if (result && (result == DIR_CW ? ++state : --state) > 3)
> state = 0; //switches between the cases
>       //sum += sq(dmm.getBusVoltage());
>       result = dmm.getBusVoltage(); //reads the two bytes from the
> INA219 and performs basic conversion to get value in mV.
>       }
>       reading = millis() - reading;
>
> After that I just show the reading+scale+unit at the screen
>
> Tobias
>
> On 4 jun, 18:42, Cobra007  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > You should capture your measurements in an interrupt routine, maybe
> > 8192 or 16384 times per second. Square them and add them to a
> > summarizing register (choose 32 bits). Then once every second, divide
> > the summarizing register by 8192 (or 16384) which is the same as
> > shifting them right by 13 or 14 bits and then take the square root
> > from this number.
>
> > It would look like:
> > sum += sqr(measurement)
>
> > then once a second:
> > result = sqrt(sum >> 13); sum = 0;
>
> > Dependent on your A/D resolution, you may have to divide the
> > measurement by 2 or 4 to avoid the sum to overflow (like sum +=
> > sqr(measurement >> 1). You could also calculate the result twice per
> > second to avoid overflow.
>
> > That is pretty much it, I think.
>
> > Michel
>
> > On Jun 4, 10:11 pm, Tobias  wrote:
>
> > > Thanks everyone.
>
> > > jb-electronics: I draw my one, including the fuse and the shunt with
> > > traces for up to 5A continuous, filter following datasheet
> > > recommendation, i2c address smd jumpers and connectors for power and
> > > i2c.
> > > are you at Germany or the US? Take a look at the photo and let me know
> > > if you are interested. We can work something 
> > > out.http://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/dscn4054.jpghttp://tob...
>
> > > Cobra007: I can definitely try that out! I know how the math should
> > > look like on the paper, but I have no idea how to implement this on
> > > the controller. I would think it uses a time interrupt to capture the
> > > measurements at at pre-defined rate, log some of the last readings..
> > > and then what? If you give me some hint regarding a C implementation
> > > of the math I can start working on that! =)
> > > I searched for an arduino implementation but I could not find one that
> > > made me happy.
>
> > > Grahame: Nice, they even give you the source code! I'll have to login
> > > and take a look =)
>
> > > On 4 jun, 06:11, Grahame Marsh  wrote:
>
> > > > On 04/06/2012 00:05, Tobias wrote:
>
> > > > > I am trying some R and C measuring designs on the b

[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie multimeter

[Cobra007]

> Not to worry! The INA219 has a built-in sample averaging mechanism.
>
> You can ask it to take up to 128 samples and average them to produce one
> number to receive over the I2C bus.
>
> --
> David Forbes, Tucson AZ

That won't be of much help as you need the average over the squared
samples, not the average over the samples themselves.

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie multimeter

[Cobra007]

You should capture your measurements in an interrupt routine, maybe
8192 or 16384 times per second. Square them and add them to a
summarizing register (choose 32 bits). Then once every second, divide
the summarizing register by 8192 (or 16384) which is the same as
shifting them right by 13 or 14 bits and then take the square root
from this number.

It would look like:
sum += sqr(measurement)

then once a second:
result = sqrt(sum >> 13); sum = 0;

Dependent on your A/D resolution, you may have to divide the
measurement by 2 or 4 to avoid the sum to overflow (like sum +=
sqr(measurement >> 1). You could also calculate the result twice per
second to avoid overflow.

That is pretty much it, I think.

Michel




On Jun 4, 10:11 pm, Tobias  wrote:
> Thanks everyone.
>
> jb-electronics: I draw my one, including the fuse and the shunt with
> traces for up to 5A continuous, filter following datasheet
> recommendation, i2c address smd jumpers and connectors for power and
> i2c.
> are you at Germany or the US? Take a look at the photo and let me know
> if you are interested. We can work something 
> out.http://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/dscn4054.jpghttp://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/dscn4053.jpg
>
> Cobra007: I can definitely try that out! I know how the math should
> look like on the paper, but I have no idea how to implement this on
> the controller. I would think it uses a time interrupt to capture the
> measurements at at pre-defined rate, log some of the last readings..
> and then what? If you give me some hint regarding a C implementation
> of the math I can start working on that! =)
> I searched for an arduino implementation but I could not find one that
> made me happy.
>
> Grahame: Nice, they even give you the source code! I'll have to login
> and take a look =)
>
> On 4 jun, 06:11, Grahame Marsh  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 04/06/2012 00:05, Tobias wrote:
>
> > > I am trying some R and C measuring designs on the breadboard but
> > > nothing too promising so far.
>
> > Tobias,
>
> > For capacitance you might look at these Elektor projects:
>
> > Low 
> > rangehttp://www.elektor.com/magazines/2011/april/pico-c.1738839.lynkx?tab=1
>
> > High 
> > Rangehttp://www.elektor.com/magazines/2003/february/autoranging-capacitanc...
>
> > In both cases they are not much more than a TLC555 timer (the design is
> > a bit fussy on which manufacture's 555 is used) that the controller
> > measures the period of and then calculates the capacitance.
>
> > Project is looking good...
>
> > Grahame

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie multimeter

[Cobra007]

Nice project!

You could make a real true RMS meter with this by implementing the RMS
integral in your uC if it is fast enough. I would like that better
than other methods some "true RMS" DMMs use.

Michel





On Jun 4, 6:39 pm, jb-electronics  wrote:
> Tobias,
>
> the INA219 is amazing! Do you know if there are any breakout boards for
> 2.54mm pcbs?
>
> Jens
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thank you all =)
>
> > For the past couple days we have been working on the user interface.
> > This is the result do far:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwBKmTFYuQk
>
> > The rotary encoder changes between the different measurements. As I
> > add more features I can just add more cases to the loop, making it
> > easy at the software.
>
> > Bill: Vitaly wrote me a email offering some for sale. Lets see how
> > this turns out. Otherwise I will go to ebay. Your link came back "Item
> > 190675257 is no longer available." Do you remember the name of the
> > seller?
>
> > Jens: I am still studying how to approach other measurements, but I am
> > happy with the results so far. I think I failed on explaining how I am
> > doing it. Take a look at the INA219. It is the one I am using. For
> > less than $3,00 I gave it a shot and it works quite nice. "The INA219
> > senses the small drop across the shunt for shunt voltage, and senses
> > the voltage with respect to ground from VIN for the bus voltage". It
> > looks like the hobbyists are just starting to use it, or my google
> > skills are quite modest, because I could not find anything better than
> > the datasheet. Anyway I ended up drawing the component at eaglecad and
> > writing the library for the arduino.
>
> > I am trying some R and C measuring designs on the breadboard but
> > nothing too promising so far.
>
> > A box is on the way. At least is on the paper.
> >http://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/nixieatmegav3.png
> >http://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/nixieatmegav3_frontal.png
> >http://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/nixieatmegav3_lateral.png
>
> > Tobias
>
> > On 1 jun, 04:42, jb-electronics  wrote:
> >> Hello Tobias,
>
> >> nice project! I would very much like to see how this evolves.
>
> >> But just one thing: You mention you measure voltage before and after the
> >> shunt to get a current reading. This sounds to me like you are wasting a
> >> lot (!) of ADC resolution for that fact because you would always
> >> subtract two voltages who are roughly of the same magnitude.
>
> >> Ever thought about an instrument amplifier (very sensitive differential
> >> amplifier) across the shunt? You could also use some current sense ICs
> >> who have all of these included (Linear Technologies has a lot of them).
>
> >> Jens
>
> >>> Hello, I am new to this group and I would like to introduce myself
> >>> with a project that I have been working on.
> >>> This is my attempt to create a DMM using IN-12s, a IN-15A and a IN-15B
> >>> as display. I used my nixie clock board as base, so it can double as a
> >>> clock when not used as multimeter =)
> >>>http://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/dscn4039.jpg
> >>>http://tobiasmugge.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/dscn4034.jpg
> >>> The uC is a Atmel Atmega328p. I downloaded arduino bootloader on it.
> >>> I am using supertex HV5522 as drivers for the nixies. Two of them for
> >>> 64bits. A friend of mine wrote a library for it that includes
> >>> brightness control via the HV5522 blank pin. He is currently
> >>> programming the clock while I work on the DMM.
> >>> Power consumption is around 3W. DC power supply from 9 to 12V. The
> >>> voltage for the tubes is boosted from the input voltage using a switch-
> >>> mode power supply based on the TubeHobby one.
> >>> The pictures and video shows voltage reading: is the only measurement
> >>> I implemented on the software so far. Still thinking how to approach
> >>> the scales/units.
> >>> I have a shunt resistor on the board and I plan on having voltage,
> >>> current, power, frequency and duty cycle for DC. I am using a I2C A/D
> >>> with a PGA, measuring voltage on both sides of the shunt. This was a
> >>> fairly cheap solution, but the way I did it only works for DC and the
> >>> range is 0 to 32V. But allows me to measure current and voltage at the
> >>> same time =)
> >>> I have a video of the thing 
> >>> working:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNYnFTeADow
> >>> The maximum error I measured was 1,2% when comparing to my not-that-
> >>> bad-multimeter.
> >>> I plan on implementing resistance, capacitance, inductance and AC
> >>> voltage/current capabilities. Suggestions will be greatly appreciated!
> >>> The IN-15A showed on the pictures is not fully lightened. I am
> >>> following Nick suggestion to burn it at 6mA for one hour. So far so
> >>> good.
> >>> I am still trying to find some IN-12B as those include the dot. I do
> >>> have 4 bits free on the HV5522 that I could use to drive IN-12B dots
> >>> or INS-1.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Impession of the IN-18 Bluie Dream Series 2

[Cobra007]

That is impressive! Got a finished one already?

Michel


On Jun 2, 8:29 pm, kay486  wrote:
> Now thats some high tech nixie clock! Love it! Are you planing on making a
> new board for Z566M and similar tubes?

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[neonixie-l] Re: German Customs Delaying Packages !!!!

[Cobra007]

I also sent out a parcel to Germany last year, took ages to arrive (at
least 8 weeks). No troubles when using Fedex or TNT though.

Has anyone ever shipped something to Egypt lately? Does that give any
troubles?

Michel



On May 29, 5:41 am, threeneurons  wrote:
> Another German customer sent me a message asking about a spinner kit I
> shipped to him back on April 26. Anybody have a clue why these bozos sit on
> a package this long ? Job security ? Power freak ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 14, 2012 9:07:19 AM UTC-7, threeneurons wrote:
>
> > It happened to me last year, around this time. Now its happening again. I
> > sell some small electronics items on eBay. I ship them around the world.
> > But sometimes German Customs, get a burr up its A**, and sit on one of my
> > parcels for 6 weeks or more. Its getting to the point where I will forbid
> > German buyers ! No problems in Italy or Romania ... Aarrgh !

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-14 clock, creative enclosure.

[Cobra007]

That is cool, looks a bit creepy though. Reminds me of things happened
about 70 odd years ago.

I assume that those "glitches" are in fact programmed features, it
suits the clock really well, makes it a bit more spooky.

Nice work, for sure! Thanks for posting.
Michel





On May 28, 10:08 pm, "H. Carl Ott"  wrote:
> Just stumbled across this one.
> He gets extra points for the packaging.
>
> http://youtu.be/h9mNPalq-4Q
>
> carl
> 
> Henry Carl Ott   N2RVQ    hcarl...@gmail.com

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[neonixie-l] Re: A small milestone: 500 members!

[Cobra007]

Wow, does he deserve a free Nixie Clock or other (smaller) gift?

Welcome to the group heavyleaded!

Michel



On May 21, 11:07 pm, Nick  wrote:
> Today (21st May 2012) we welcome our 500th member,  heavyleaded, to the new
> group!
>
> Nick

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[neonixie-l] Re: Blue Magic Nixie Watch

[Cobra007]

Too large?? I think it is too small :-). I tried to make it as small
as possible and in my opinion it ended up to be too small :-).
I want to make a new design in the future (you know, "one day") but
then a normal size domino tile (2" x 1")

No, I have no website with projects, I am more or less snowed under
with all the things I do already :-). (maybe "one day")

I made this clock in 2008, still running :-):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-0yBt9ZQMk

Michel


On May 19, 10:22 pm, jb-electronics 
wrote:
> Hey, that clock is neat! Still too large for my wrist, though ;-)
>
> Do you have a website with your projects?
>
> Jens
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks Dieter&  Jens,
>
> > LED watches have indeed the same problem. I made a domino watch some
> > time ago:
> >http://www.facebook.com/pages/Domino-Watch/290040851018314
>
> > Not as stunning as the Nixie Watch but I incorporated the same trick
> > with an ambient light sensor otherwise it really is a shock when you
> > check the time in the middle of the night.
>
> > Michel
>
> > On May 19, 10:12 pm, jb-electronics
> > wrote:
> >> Michel,
>
> >> really nice work!
>
> >>> At least you won't be blinded by the light if you want to check the time 
> >>> in the middle of the night :-).
> >> Very reasonable, happens to me all the time with my LED binary watch.
>
> >> Jens

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[neonixie-l] Re: Blue Magic Nixie Watch

[Cobra007]

Thanks Dieter & Jens,

LED watches have indeed the same problem. I made a domino watch some
time ago:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Domino-Watch/290040851018314

Not as stunning as the Nixie Watch but I incorporated the same trick
with an ambient light sensor otherwise it really is a shock when you
check the time in the middle of the night.

Michel



On May 19, 10:12 pm, jb-electronics 
wrote:
> Michel,
>
> really nice work!
>
> > At least you won't be blinded by the light if you want to check the time in 
> > the middle of the night :-).
>
> Very reasonable, happens to me all the time with my LED binary watch.
>
> Jens

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[neonixie-l] Re: Blue Magic Nixie Watch

[Cobra007]

I gave it a shot Adam, with an exposure time of 3 seconds there is not
much more to see in the picture than some vague street lights
So I thought better just take the watch by itself in total darkness
with a 3 seconds exposure time.

The result is here:
http://xiac.com/Images/KoprisoNW3SecExp.jpg

6mA battery current, unbelievable, what a stunning result! At least
you won't be blinded by the light if you want to check the time in the
middle of the night :-).

Michel





On May 19, 5:01 pm, Adam Jacobs  wrote:
> If your goal is the comparison of brightness, perhaps you can think of
> something else which would be easier to photograph that would work as a
> point of reference.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Cobra007  wrote:
> > That is an option or else I was thinking of making 2 separate
> > pictures, both showing the watch and the moon at the same time.
> > Then 1 picture has the moon in focus and the other has the watch in
> > focus, just to show the true brightness of the tubes when it's dark
> > outside and the drawn battery current is only between 6 and 7mA.
>
> > Michel
>
> > On May 19, 3:40 pm, Adam Jacobs  wrote:
> > > Just super-impose the two pictures, that is the best solution. Getting a
> > > shot where the watch (a small & near object) and the moon (a very very
> > far
> > > away object) are anything close to similar in size on the final image are
> > > going to be nearly impossible. You could try it with focus-stacking, but
> > > even then, you still have the problem that the normal lens that was
> > needed
> > > for the watch is a totally different focal length than the super-zoom (or
> > > even telescope) lens that is needed for the moon.. and then, of course,
> > > there is the issue of exposure, but that one is easily solved with HDR.
>
> > > -Adam
>
> > > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Cobra007  wrote:
> > > > time. Just what I had in mind during my eureka moment! I also want to
> > > > take a picture with full moon and the nixie watch beside it, that's
> > > > going to be a bit tricky so I am still thinking about how to get that
> > > > done.
>
> > > > Michel
>
> > --
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[neonixie-l] Re: Blue Magic Nixie Watch

[Cobra007]

That is an option or else I was thinking of making 2 separate
pictures, both showing the watch and the moon at the same time.
Then 1 picture has the moon in focus and the other has the watch in
focus, just to show the true brightness of the tubes when it's dark
outside and the drawn battery current is only between 6 and 7mA.

Michel





On May 19, 3:40 pm, Adam Jacobs  wrote:
> Just super-impose the two pictures, that is the best solution. Getting a
> shot where the watch (a small & near object) and the moon (a very very far
> away object) are anything close to similar in size on the final image are
> going to be nearly impossible. You could try it with focus-stacking, but
> even then, you still have the problem that the normal lens that was needed
> for the watch is a totally different focal length than the super-zoom (or
> even telescope) lens that is needed for the moon.. and then, of course,
> there is the issue of exposure, but that one is easily solved with HDR.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Cobra007  wrote:
> > time. Just what I had in mind during my eureka moment! I also want to
> > take a picture with full moon and the nixie watch beside it, that's
> > going to be a bit tricky so I am still thinking about how to get that
> > done.
>
> > Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Blue Magic Nixie Watch

[Cobra007]

Thanks David!

It's certainly on my schedule after finishing some backlog and ship
out the pre-ordered watches.

Funny thing, I worked out yesterday that (at the moment) the most
interesting way to check the time is by bringing the your arm (and
watch) close to your forehead to activate the motion sensor, and then
read the time :-). This will certainly draw some attention :-) Of
course, another interesting way is using someone else's cheek for
example.

I have to say, the nixie tubes are the most beautiful way to display
the time and the blue LEDs really make the tubes shine at the same
time. Just what I had in mind during my eureka moment! I also want to
take a picture with full moon and the nixie watch beside it, that's
going to be a bit tricky so I am still thinking about how to get that
done.

Michel




On May 19, 2:50 pm, David Forbes  wrote:
> On 5/17/12 6:15 PM, Cobra007 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > G'day Folks!
>
> > It's been about 4 1/2 months since I had a eureka moment of how to
> > design and make my Nixie Watch. It is finally there and guess what, I
> > am wearing it :-).
>
> > I know some people on this forum showed some initial doubts, which I
> > can totally understand, but I finally have something to show.
>
> > Initially I gave it the name "Cold War" as the nixie tubes come from
> > that age, however, my wife re-named it yesterday to "Blue Magic",
> > which describes very well to what it actually is :-).
>
> > Have a look, all comments very welcome!
>
> > Michel
>
> >http://xiac.com/Images/KoprisoNWCW.jpg
>
> That's exciting! Now you get to enjoy the fun part of wearing it and
> seeing peoples' reactions.
>
> I can't wait to see a video of it in action.
>
> --
> David Forbes, Tucson AZ

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[neonixie-l] Re: Blue Magic Nixie Watch

[Cobra007]

Thanks Jeff,

I got 0 I/O pins left, so at the moment that is not going to work :-).

For all questions about battery life expectancy, I have made this
excel file:
http://xiac.com/download/NixieWatchBatteryLife.xls
Battery life is strongly dependent on how the watch is used and the
amount of ambient light.
You can play around with the values in this excel file.

Michel



On May 18, 10:55 pm, Jeff Thomas  wrote:
> Excellent Michel!
> I really enjoyed the cover label on the Lithium Cellski.
>
> If you have a couple more unused I/O pins, maybe RGB led control?
>
> Regards, Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, May 18, 2012 4:55:50 AM UTC-7, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > Thanks Guys!
>
> > Sure there is also a video coming one of these days but I first need
> > to finish off a bit of work here that I had put aside.
>
> > @Lucky, yes it totally meets my expectations and in some areas even
> > exceeds them. Would I have done anything different? Well, not about
> > the watch but for sure for a future project I would first finish it
> > before announcing what I am planning to make :-). It is easy to get
> > distracted by input from other people when you have a real clear view
> > in your mind of how you want to design things.
>
> > Keep you posted and/or stay in touch on facebook:
> >http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nixie-Watch/146174782160870?ref=tn_tnmn
>
> > Michel
>
> On Friday, May 18, 2012 4:55:50 AM UTC-7, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > Thanks Guys!
>
> > Sure there is also a video coming one of these days but I first need
> > to finish off a bit of work here that I had put aside.
>
> > @Lucky, yes it totally meets my expectations and in some areas even
> > exceeds them. Would I have done anything different? Well, not about
> > the watch but for sure for a future project I would first finish it
> > before announcing what I am planning to make :-). It is easy to get
> > distracted by input from other people when you have a real clear view
> > in your mind of how you want to design things.
>
> > Keep you posted and/or stay in touch on facebook:
> >http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nixie-Watch/146174782160870?ref=tn_tnmn
>
> > Michel
>
> On Friday, May 18, 2012 4:55:50 AM UTC-7, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > Thanks Guys!
>
> > Sure there is also a video coming one of these days but I first need
> > to finish off a bit of work here that I had put aside.
>
> > @Lucky, yes it totally meets my expectations and in some areas even
> > exceeds them. Would I have done anything different? Well, not about
> > the watch but for sure for a future project I would first finish it
> > before announcing what I am planning to make :-). It is easy to get
> > distracted by input from other people when you have a real clear view
> > in your mind of how you want to design things.
>
> > Keep you posted and/or stay in touch on facebook:
> >http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nixie-Watch/146174782160870?ref=tn_tnmn
>
> > Michel
>
> On Friday, May 18, 2012 4:55:50 AM UTC-7, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > Thanks Guys!
>
> > Sure there is also a video coming one of these days but I first need
> > to finish off a bit of work here that I had put aside.
>
> > @Lucky, yes it totally meets my expectations and in some areas even
> > exceeds them. Would I have done anything different? Well, not about
> > the watch but for sure for a future project I would first finish it
> > before announcing what I am planning to make :-). It is easy to get
> > distracted by input from other people when you have a real clear view
> > in your mind of how you want to design things.
>
> > Keep you posted and/or stay in touch on facebook:
> >http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nixie-Watch/146174782160870?ref=tn_tnmn
>
> > Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Blue Magic Nixie Watch

[Cobra007]

Thanks Guys!

Sure there is also a video coming one of these days but I first need
to finish off a bit of work here that I had put aside.

@Lucky, yes it totally meets my expectations and in some areas even
exceeds them. Would I have done anything different? Well, not about
the watch but for sure for a future project I would first finish it
before announcing what I am planning to make :-). It is easy to get
distracted by input from other people when you have a real clear view
in your mind of how you want to design things.

Keep you posted and/or stay in touch on facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nixie-Watch/146174782160870?ref=tn_tnmn

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Blue Magic Nixie Watch

[Cobra007]

G'day Folks!

It's been about 4 1/2 months since I had a eureka moment of how to
design and make my Nixie Watch. It is finally there and guess what, I
am wearing it :-).

I know some people on this forum showed some initial doubts, which I
can totally understand, but I finally have something to show.

Initially I gave it the name "Cold War" as the nixie tubes come from
that age, however, my wife re-named it yesterday to "Blue Magic",
which describes very well to what it actually is :-).

Have a look, all comments very welcome!

Michel

http://xiac.com/Images/KoprisoNWCW.jpg

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[neonixie-l] Re: Kopriso Nixie Watch third glimpse

[Cobra007]

I am missing the "I like this" button on Google groups :-)

Michel



On May 12, 1:18 pm, AnubisTTP  wrote:
> The obvious solution is to geek out completely and make a dekatron
> watch that tells time in metric! Use two A108s and divide the day into
> 10 hours of 100 minutes, then have the first tube display hours and
> the second 10s of minutes. Sure, nobody is going to be able to read
> the thing, but once you get to the point where you are seriously
> talking about building a dekatron-based watch, I think all hope of
> having a practical device has been thrown out the window already.
>
> Ultimately building a dekatron watch is to doable though, to really
> break people's brains you are going to have to build a watch out of
> direct view beam switching tubes.
>
> http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=1090
>
> If someone manages to actually pull that off, they could probably
> somehow tap their own lack of sanity as a power source...

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[neonixie-l] Re: Kopriso Nixie Watch third glimpse

[Cobra007]

Yeah, I can see potential in that one. But how can you turn that into
a clock? It would have been great if it had 12 segments rather than
10. Otherwise you need 1 tube for each digit and some form of face
plate to show the number it actually represents.

Michel



On May 12, 11:20 am, threeneurons  wrote:
> On Friday, May 11, 2012 3:50:20 PM UTC-7, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > Nice tubes, had a look at some on youtube. They still seem relatively
> > large. If there was a dekatron that would fit inside a B4998 envelope
> > it would more appealing.  ...
>
> > Michel
>
> There's the A108 group (A107, A108, & A109).
>
>  http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=744
>
> They're as small as an IN-2. Only problem, is that they're divide-by-5, not
> divide-by-10.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Kopriso Nixie Watch third glimpse

[Cobra007]

Nice tubes, had a look at some on youtube. They still seem relatively
large. If there was a dekatron that would fit inside a B4998 envelope
it would more appealing.

I think family and work is for most of us the reason why projects take
more time than initially planned :-) I usually start too many projects
at the same time because I want to try out all of them :-)

Michel



On May 12, 8:32 am, Dekatron42  wrote:
> Ohh, I would go for just one watch if I had the parts, mass production
> has never been my focus as I just do these thingd for fun and because
> I can.
>
> I guess that the Burroughs Self Scan design is the smallest "dekatron"-
> like object there is, I have not seen anything similar from any other
> manufacturer. It would however need some re-design to work as a true
> dekatron with output cathodes if you'd like to drive a Nixie from it,
> otherwise a combined design with a Dekatron and the ZM1050 (Z550M)
> "pixie" would have been nice too.
>
> The smallest dekatrons, to my knowledge, with output cathodes which
> could drive a Nixie via a transistor is probably the ZM1170 / Z504S
> types which come in a 13 pin B13B socket, the same socket that ZM1040
> Nixies use. The smallest ones, to my knowledge, which you can use to
> drive a Nixie with directly are the GSA10G / GCA10G (similar designs
> are Z572S / Z573C). I'm making a clock with the GSA10G's but it is
> really slow progress as my family and work takes most of my time.
>
> /Martin
>
> On 12 Maj, 00:18, Cobra007  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks Martin,
>
> > It is of course technically possible to use dekatrons, but are there
> > any that are small enough for use as a wrist watch? Also, to make it
> > worth the effort, you need quite a stash of those tubes, I mean it
> > doesn't really make sense to spend all this time designing it and then
> > only have enough tubes for 10 watches :-).
>
> > Another possible problem could be the brightness of the tube cathodes.
> > The dekatron only lights up only a small dot rather than a whole
> > digit.
> > I like the idea though!
>
> > Michel
>
> > On May 12, 7:45 am, Dekatron42  wrote:
>
> > > Nice!
>
> > > I wish there where small enough Nixies to make a four digit watch the
> > > same (or smaller) size! If it would have been possible to make the
> > > counting logic with small dekatrons I would have paid anything to get
> > > one!
>
> > > /Martin
>
> > > On 11 Maj, 13:38, Cobra007  wrote:
>
> > > > Thanks Dave,
>
> > > > It's a bit of a struggle doing my own work and the nixie watch in my
> > > > spare time. I would really like to see it in it's case, but I know for
> > > > a fact I'll be very busy next week. Still, I'll give it my best shot.
>
> > > > Michel
>
> > > > On May 11, 8:53 pm, Lucky  wrote:
>
> > > > > Great Michel, looking fine I must say congrats on your hard work. 
> > > > > Will be
> > > > > interesting to see the case/strap you design for it.
>
> > > > > On Thursday, 10 May 2012 08:27:58 UTC+1, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > > > > > Programming is almost done!
> > > > > > There are 9 settings that the user can change according to his/her
> > > > > > preference. This is related to tube brightness, time format, 
> > > > > > rotation
> > > > > > speed, power saving modes and sensor sensitivity. Additionally, 
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > are 2 settings for calibration of the RTCC to fine tune it down to
> > > > > > about 2.5sec per month. It also incorporates a 16 bit counter that
> > > > > > increments at every time trigger. Battery should last for more than
> > > > > > 20,000 triggers under normal circumstances.
>
> > > > > >http://youtu.be/n7NGRoVZfIY
>
> > > > > > Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Kopriso Nixie Watch third glimpse

[Cobra007]

Thanks Martin,

It is of course technically possible to use dekatrons, but are there
any that are small enough for use as a wrist watch? Also, to make it
worth the effort, you need quite a stash of those tubes, I mean it
doesn't really make sense to spend all this time designing it and then
only have enough tubes for 10 watches :-).

Another possible problem could be the brightness of the tube cathodes.
The dekatron only lights up only a small dot rather than a whole
digit.
I like the idea though!

Michel



On May 12, 7:45 am, Dekatron42  wrote:
> Nice!
>
> I wish there where small enough Nixies to make a four digit watch the
> same (or smaller) size! If it would have been possible to make the
> counting logic with small dekatrons I would have paid anything to get
> one!
>
> /Martin
>
> On 11 Maj, 13:38, Cobra007  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks Dave,
>
> > It's a bit of a struggle doing my own work and the nixie watch in my
> > spare time. I would really like to see it in it's case, but I know for
> > a fact I'll be very busy next week. Still, I'll give it my best shot.
>
> > Michel
>
> > On May 11, 8:53 pm, Lucky  wrote:
>
> > > Great Michel, looking fine I must say congrats on your hard work. Will be
> > > interesting to see the case/strap you design for it.
>
> > > On Thursday, 10 May 2012 08:27:58 UTC+1, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > > > Programming is almost done!
> > > > There are 9 settings that the user can change according to his/her
> > > > preference. This is related to tube brightness, time format, rotation
> > > > speed, power saving modes and sensor sensitivity. Additionally, there
> > > > are 2 settings for calibration of the RTCC to fine tune it down to
> > > > about 2.5sec per month. It also incorporates a 16 bit counter that
> > > > increments at every time trigger. Battery should last for more than
> > > > 20,000 triggers under normal circumstances.
>
> > > >http://youtu.be/n7NGRoVZfIY
>
> > > > Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Kopriso Nixie Watch third glimpse

[Cobra007]

Thanks Dave,

It's a bit of a struggle doing my own work and the nixie watch in my
spare time. I would really like to see it in it's case, but I know for
a fact I'll be very busy next week. Still, I'll give it my best shot.

Michel



On May 11, 8:53 pm, Lucky  wrote:
> Great Michel, looking fine I must say congrats on your hard work. Will be
> interesting to see the case/strap you design for it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, 10 May 2012 08:27:58 UTC+1, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > Programming is almost done!
> > There are 9 settings that the user can change according to his/her
> > preference. This is related to tube brightness, time format, rotation
> > speed, power saving modes and sensor sensitivity. Additionally, there
> > are 2 settings for calibration of the RTCC to fine tune it down to
> > about 2.5sec per month. It also incorporates a 16 bit counter that
> > increments at every time trigger. Battery should last for more than
> > 20,000 triggers under normal circumstances.
>
> >http://youtu.be/n7NGRoVZfIY
>
> > Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Kopriso Nixie Watch third glimpse

[Cobra007]

All done!

I probably need to polish the software here and there to remove traces
of debugging and add a bit more comment so that I can still find out
what I was thinking in about 10 years from now. But overall,
everything works.

I added the following parameters that the user can change to their own
preference:
P01 : 12/24hr format [0=24hr, 1=12hr]
P02 : Maximum brightness [0=25%, 1=50%, 2=75%, 3=100%]
P03 : Brightness [0=constant, 1=ambient, 2=ambient+3dB, 3=ambient+6dB]
P04 : Time format [0=hh/mm, 1=hh/mm/ss, 2=hh/mm/ss + 5 seconds real
time, 3=hh/mm continuously with 5 second delays]
P05 : Rotation speed [0=fast, 1, 2, 3=slow]
P06 : Motion sensor disable [0=always, 1=after 2hrs, 2=after 4hrs,
3=never]
P07 : Power saving mode [0=sleep, 1=deep sleep]
P08 : Tube brightness in low ambient light [0=+0, 1=+2, 2=+4 3=+8]
P09 : Motion sensor range [0=6cm, 1, 2, 3=2cm]
P10 : Calibration register increment
P11 : Calibration register decrement

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Linear HVPS with a Variac

[Cobra007]

Hi Jens,

They do have them for higher voltages as well.
See here a 650V model:
http://au.element14.com/bourns/cmf-rl50a-0/cptc-radial-telecom-50-ohm/dp/1652209

I would put it on the on the 230V side of the transformer. You can
also do it in the 15V line but my experience is that you loose quite a
bit of voltage across those fuses. There could be better ones now that
I don't know about.

Michel



On May 10, 10:34 pm, jb-electronics 
wrote:
> Hi Michel,
>
> yes, a PTC fuse is indeed what I need. I_max was not correct, yes,
> thanks for the hint.
>
> But where do I plug it in? These PTC fuses are not suitable for voltages
> above 100V or so, so the best place for the fuse would be between the
> two back to back transformers, right? The voltage there is between
> 0..15V AC, the maximum current (if we want something like 50mA after the
> last transformer, i.e. 27W) is 27W / 15V = 1.8A . So a PTX fuse with
> I_trip = 1.8A should do the trick, right?
>
> Jens
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I think the I_max that you specify is not really correct. I_max could
> > be much higher because you're charging a capacitor, it's not a
> > resistor. It looks like you are after a 542V power supply that can
> > supply 30mA (16VA/542V). I_max is not really relevant I think. What
> > you could do is add a PTC resettable fuse (50mA) on the primary side
> > (230V) of your transformer, that will give you the required
> > protection.
>
> > Michel
>
> > On May 10, 8:14 pm, jb-electronics
> > wrote:
> >> Hi folks,
>
> >> for my Nixie tube making I need a power supply with a little more juice
> >> than the 300V @ 10mA Traco module I have been using until now. This is
> >> what I came up with:
>
> >> I have a nice 400W variac, so if I connect that to a transformer
> >> back-to-back circuitry (serving as a voltage amplification as well as
> >> galvanic seperation), this - after rectification and a smoothing cap, of
> >> course - gives me an adjustable voltage of
>
> >> U_out_max = SQRT(2) x 230V x (15 : 9) = 542V DC .
>
> >> Using some kind of gear on the variac knob will allow a reasonably
> >> accurate adjustment of the output voltage. For the back to back
> >> transformers I would like to use 16VA versions, supplying me with
>
> >> I_max = 16 VA / 542 V x SQRT(2) = 42 mA .
>
> >> Any mistakes so far?
>
> >> Anyway, I was wondering what happens if you short the output of this
> >> setup for a short time (<  10 seconds). The transformers I would like to
> >> use are NOT short-circuit-protected. But I suppose for such a short time
> >> this is not critical, is it?
>
> >> I will include a voltmeter and amperemeter, and if the amperemeter
> >> measures a current above a specified value (let's say 40mA) it will shut
> >> down the output voltage using a relais. This is not a perfect
> >> over-current protection, but the easiest one I can think of at these
> >> voltages. This whole setup is still in the planning, but it is the
> >> simplest design I could imagine.
>
> >> Is there any major flaw in my design that I did not think of?
>
> >> Thanks for your input, it is much appreciated.
>
> >> Jens

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[neonixie-l] Re: Linear HVPS with a Variac

[Cobra007]

I think the I_max that you specify is not really correct. I_max could
be much higher because you're charging a capacitor, it's not a
resistor. It looks like you are after a 542V power supply that can
supply 30mA (16VA/542V). I_max is not really relevant I think. What
you could do is add a PTC resettable fuse (50mA) on the primary side
(230V) of your transformer, that will give you the required
protection.

Michel




On May 10, 8:14 pm, jb-electronics 
wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> for my Nixie tube making I need a power supply with a little more juice
> than the 300V @ 10mA Traco module I have been using until now. This is
> what I came up with:
>
> I have a nice 400W variac, so if I connect that to a transformer
> back-to-back circuitry (serving as a voltage amplification as well as
> galvanic seperation), this - after rectification and a smoothing cap, of
> course - gives me an adjustable voltage of
>
> U_out_max = SQRT(2) x 230V x (15 : 9) = 542V DC .
>
> Using some kind of gear on the variac knob will allow a reasonably
> accurate adjustment of the output voltage. For the back to back
> transformers I would like to use 16VA versions, supplying me with
>
> I_max = 16 VA / 542 V x SQRT(2) = 42 mA .
>
> Any mistakes so far?
>
> Anyway, I was wondering what happens if you short the output of this
> setup for a short time (< 10 seconds). The transformers I would like to
> use are NOT short-circuit-protected. But I suppose for such a short time
> this is not critical, is it?
>
> I will include a voltmeter and amperemeter, and if the amperemeter
> measures a current above a specified value (let's say 40mA) it will shut
> down the output voltage using a relais. This is not a perfect
> over-current protection, but the easiest one I can think of at these
> voltages. This whole setup is still in the planning, but it is the
> simplest design I could imagine.
>
> Is there any major flaw in my design that I did not think of?
>
> Thanks for your input, it is much appreciated.
>
> Jens

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[neonixie-l] Kopriso Nixie Watch third glimpse

[Cobra007]

Programming is almost done!
There are 9 settings that the user can change according to his/her
preference. This is related to tube brightness, time format, rotation
speed, power saving modes and sensor sensitivity. Additionally, there
are 2 settings for calibration of the RTCC to fine tune it down to
about 2.5sec per month. It also incorporates a 16 bit counter that
increments at every time trigger. Battery should last for more than
20,000 triggers under normal circumstances.

http://youtu.be/n7NGRoVZfIY

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Dallas/Maxim TCXO

[Cobra007]

If you want to remove 0 - 255 pulses per hour, I would use a second
controller in an 8 pin DIL package. They are dirt cheap. You could
convert the 2 binary switches (0-F) to an analog signal through two 4
bit R-2R networks, or just use a couple of weighted resistors for each
bit. The controller reads them on analog inputs and converts both of
them back to a single byte. I have used that method before to read the
state of 4 switches through 1 pin and it works perfectly.

Michel



On Apr 26, 6:53 am, "chuck richards"  wrote:
> Hmmm.  Interesting!  Thanks.  This is the reason I
> always like to consult you guys.  Someone always has
> a unique method or a different view.
>
> Right now, on the first-off quickie prototype of this
> new pulse-remover, it's a 3-package solution.
>
> It uses a 4040 ripple counter, a 4073 triple 3-input
> AND gate, and one half of a 4013 D flip-flop.
>
> My first impression is that 3 packages is hard to beat.
> But I will kick around the idea of removing one pulse
> out of every 1008246 pulses.
>
> I did come up with a 6-package solution that's slightly
> more complex.  Have not built it yet, but it has the
> addition of (2) hexadecimal rotary switches to use to
> set in the number of pulses to remove every hour.
> That number can be anywhere from 0 to 255 base ten. (FF hex)
> That configuration can slow a clock down by about 68 seconds
> per year max.   That would pretty well cover the worst of
> the Maxim TCXOs.   To go any more than that, a ninth bit
> would need to be decoded, and then up goes the package count.
>
> Or, the rotary switches could be assigned to the next higher
> order bits starting at N=2 instead of N=1, and then
> you'd have to play games figuring out how to set them!
>
> Not to mention that the resolution would then end
> up being to the nearest 2 pulses, not to the nearest
> single pulse.   So, the 8-bit decoder using the switches
> is the next thing I will build and start testing.
>
> The first simple one is hardwired to decode 117 and to remove
> that many pulses.  It's very simple, but changing that
> integer is a pain.   Moving a few wires around is fine
> on a solderless board and during an experiment, but not
> on a final solution.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Original Message 
> From: jreh...@mac.com
> To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Dallas/Maxim TCXO
> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 00:13:39 -0400
>
> >> That number turns out to be 117 pulses to somehow remove
> >> every hour.
>
> >You could attack it a different way, and skip one pulse after every
> >1008246.
> >Shouldn't be hard to implement, as that's just 2 * 3 * 197 * 853.
> >You could
> >instead skip one out of 1008247, but that happens to be a prime
> >number.
>
> >- John
>
> >--
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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie life specs

[Cobra007]

Yes, I agree! It gives a bit of insight to what "Cathode poisoning"
actually refers to.

Thanks for typing this up!
Michel


On Apr 25, 10:24 pm, Imbanon  wrote:
> Finally a good answer to this question. That was very informing.
> Thanks!
>
> On Apr 25, 10:26 am, "JohnK"  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have noticed many discussions about the lifetime specifications of 
> > Nixies. I haven't noticed anyone quoting the manufacturer definition of 
> > lifetime -  but I may have missed it. So, read on ...
>
> > "Electronic Counting circuits techniques devices ", Mullard Limited, 
> > October 1967. approx. 220 pages. Many circuits.
> > Various authors and sources.
> > There seem to be about eight of these books available through ABE ranging 
> > $20 to $60. Bound to be others at the usual places too.
>
> > The approx 13 page chapter on numerical indicator tubes is based on 
> > material supplied by B. Butler of the Mullard Industrial Electronics 
> > division.
>
> > I have included some of the text below rather than attach scans [if 
> > allowed],
> > John Kaesehagen
> > Australia.
>
> > From the 'numerical indicator tubes' chapter I quote this [via OCR] :-
> > "The normal figures quoted in published data for the life of a numerical
>
> > indicator tube are 5000 hours with a continuous display of one character,
>
> > and 30 000 hours when sequentially changing the display from one digit
>
> > to the next every 100 hours or less. The end of life for the above figures 
> > is
>
> > taken to be the time when any character is unable to be covered completely,
>
> > although several more thousand hours would probably have to elapse
>
> > before the character became completely indecipherable."
>
> > The above is contained within this section:-
>
> > "      LIFE PERFORMANCE
>
> > The expected life performance of a numerical indicator tube depends to
>
> > a greal extent on the length of time the discharge is investing any 
> > particular
>
> > cathode. With any gas-discharge device, the cathode is subjected to constant
>
> > ion bombardment which removes material from the cathode and
>
> > deposits it elsewhere in the tube. This "sputtering" process, as it is 
> > known,
>
> > is, in fact, put to good use in many cold cathode gasfllled tubes during
>
> > processing. The cathode surlaces are cleaned in this manner and any
>
> > sputter material thrown on the glass walls of the envelope effectively seals
>
> > in any foreign matter that may affect the performance of the tube during
>
> > its life. In a numerical indicator tube, however, although a clean cathode
>
> > is desirable, sputter material on the envelope would impair the visibility
>
> > of the display. Some sputtering is unavoidable, but since the rate of
>
> > sputter is proportional to the peak current of the tube, it can be contained
>
> > within limits.
>
> > If one cathode is continually glowing, sputter material from that
>
> > cathode is deposited on other cathode surfaces in close proximity.
>
> > Although the legibility of the glowing cathode is not affected to a great
>
> > extent, the cathodes on which the sputter is deposited are affected. In
>
> > fact, the work function of the metal of the adjacent cathodes alters in
>
> > such a way that it requires a higher current to completely cover the
>
> > cathode and if this current is not available, the cathode appears patchy.
>
> > This imposes a minimum permitted current level on the tube. It is possible
>
> > that complete erosion of the cathode may result from bombardment,
>
> > but this is unusual.
>
> > If the discharge is cycled betweerr characters fairly regularly, this gives
>
> > a very much improved life figure since each cathode, although receiving
>
> > some sputter material, is subjected to the cleansing action of bombardment.
>
> > In this case, the higher the current, the more effective the cleansing.
>
> > The viewing area of the envelope is protected from sputter material by
>
> > the use of a shield, or mesh, which is usually connected to the anode.
>
> > From the foregoing it is evident that the end of life of a numerical
>
> > indicator tube is not abrupt, but takes the form of a gradual deterioration
>
> > of a character. This is convenient, because it enables a tube which is
>
> > showing signs of deterioration to be replaced before it fails completely.
>
> > The normal figures quoted in published data for the life of a numerical
>
> > indicator tube are 5000 hours with a continuous display of one character,
>
> > and 30 000 hours when sequentially changing the display from one digit
>
> > to the next every 100 hours or less. The end of life for the above figures 
> > is
>
> > taken to be the time when any character is unable to be covered completely,
>
> > although several more thousand hours would probably have to elapse
>
> > before the character became completely indecipherable. If a tube is
>
> > operated with a bulb temperature below 0"C, the mercury inside the tube
>
> > cond

[neonixie-l] Re: Hazy tubes, 74141

[Cobra007]

It sounds a bit funny to me. If you use the russian drivers, they have
100V outputs so that shouldn't be a problem at all assuming you use
something around a 180V-200V power supply.

There is however a difference in russian drivers, some are 74141
equivalent and some are 7441 equivalent (while they are both of type
155ID1). Although they behave the same when driving 0-9, they act
differently from a-f. Change the driver, see if it makes a difference,
replacing it with a normal 74141 should also be fine if your anode
voltage is not too high.

Michel



On Apr 25, 5:06 pm, StoopKid  wrote:
> http://i.imgur.com/iXRL7.jpg
> Here's an image of what I'm talking about. To get rid of the haze I have to
> be below 139v across just the tube. To light up the tube I have to be above
> 143v across just the tube. The problem seems to follow the tube when I swap
> it. Should I have something in my circuit to drain this current when the
> tube isn't on?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, April 24, 2012 11:40:48 PM UTC-7, StoopKid wrote:
>
> > I'm using 6 IN-14's and 6 russian 74141 equivalents. My PCB is already
> > made and when I want a tube to be blank I just throw it an invalid code.
> > But now I'm realizing that this it making them appear hazy instead of off,
> > like all of the digits are firing between one another. This goes away if I
> > turn down my voltage but to make it stop, I have to turn down the voltage
> > low enough so that some of the numbers don't completely light up. Is there
> > anything I can do about this?

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

Hi Jens,

I know you can make things in 1,000 different ways but in the end, it
is powered by a battery which basically means your solution cannot use
more than say 5uA average current. There is not a lot you can do with
that :-) And secondly, the ideal solution would preferably fit within
1 cubic mm :-).

Michel



On Apr 21, 9:01 pm, jb-electronics 
wrote:
> Hi Michel,
>
> you are right, I did not assume it was so complicated. However, have you
> considered using frequency modulation of the IR signal? This way you
> could easily subtract daylight digitally.
>
> Jens
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > It really is a bit more complicated than that Jens. I generate a very
> > short but very strong IR pulse, I'd have to check the exact numbers
> > but it is somewhere around 250mA for 2 or 3 usec. The IR light
> > reflects from an object above the watch (a hand for example) onto an
> > IR photodiode. To make this work in all situations, the photodiode
> > should not saturate when there's a lot of light around (say you are
> > outside in the sunshine), so it's series resistor is relatively low
> > (which also helps making it very fast) and the signal received from
> > the powerful 250mA pulse is only like 40mV.
>
> > I first built that with some gates, capacitors and resistors. It
> > worked very well but used about 400uA average current if I am not
> > mistaken.
>
> > 10uA is pretty much what it should be according to the data sheets if
> > you add up all the currents. Honestly, a battery will last for ages
> > (about 8 years) with a 10uA load, so I am really not worried about
> > that. It's just that the processor supports deep sleep mode, so I'd
> > like to incorporate that as well
>
> > Michel
>
> > On Apr 21, 7:59 pm, jb-electronics
> > wrote:
> >> Hello Michel,
>
> >>> Problem is that I need more components to be able to generate the
> >>> interrupt
> >> I would have used simple diodes that are OR'ed together to the external
> >> interrupt pin.
>
> >>>    and believe it or not, it actually used more current.
> >> Actually, I don't see that happening with diodes, do you? OK, if your
> >> sources have different voltage levels you need shifters and these
> >> require current, of course.
>
> >>> Standby mode means the processor is in sleep mode but wakes up about 8
> >>> times per second to check the sensor. The sensor only uses 2uA but the
> >>> processor uses more current in sleep than in deep sleep mode, so all
> >>> together it is 10uA.
> >> Have you played around with the configuration bits? I once realised that
> >> a silly enabled Brown-Out detect (which makes no sense with
> >> battery-powered devices) takes up almost all the current.
>
> >> Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but which processor do you use?
>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Jens
>
> >>> In deep sleep, the processor is completely powered down, only the RTCC
> >>> continues running. It can only be awakened by an external interrupt
> >>> (push button rather than motion sensor).
> >>> Michel
> >>> On Apr 21, 7:23 am, jb-electronics
> >>> wrote:
>  Looks very good!
> > Total circuit power is about 10uA during standby mode and 2uA during
> > deep sleep.
> > Deep sleep will be entered after a standby time-out to save battery
> > life. Clock will still run in deep-sleep mode.
>  I am curious: Do you use an external interrupt to wake the processor in
>  case of a motion etc? This might be useful and could avoid the "standby
>  mode" altogether.
>  Jens

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

It really is a bit more complicated than that Jens. I generate a very
short but very strong IR pulse, I'd have to check the exact numbers
but it is somewhere around 250mA for 2 or 3 usec. The IR light
reflects from an object above the watch (a hand for example) onto an
IR photodiode. To make this work in all situations, the photodiode
should not saturate when there's a lot of light around (say you are
outside in the sunshine), so it's series resistor is relatively low
(which also helps making it very fast) and the signal received from
the powerful 250mA pulse is only like 40mV.

I first built that with some gates, capacitors and resistors. It
worked very well but used about 400uA average current if I am not
mistaken.

10uA is pretty much what it should be according to the data sheets if
you add up all the currents. Honestly, a battery will last for ages
(about 8 years) with a 10uA load, so I am really not worried about
that. It's just that the processor supports deep sleep mode, so I'd
like to incorporate that as well

Michel



On Apr 21, 7:59 pm, jb-electronics 
wrote:
> Hello Michel,
>
> > Problem is that I need more components to be able to generate the
> > interrupt
>
> I would have used simple diodes that are OR'ed together to the external
> interrupt pin.
>
> >   and believe it or not, it actually used more current.
>
> Actually, I don't see that happening with diodes, do you? OK, if your
> sources have different voltage levels you need shifters and these
> require current, of course.
>
> > Standby mode means the processor is in sleep mode but wakes up about 8
> > times per second to check the sensor. The sensor only uses 2uA but the
> > processor uses more current in sleep than in deep sleep mode, so all
> > together it is 10uA.
>
> Have you played around with the configuration bits? I once realised that
> a silly enabled Brown-Out detect (which makes no sense with
> battery-powered devices) takes up almost all the current.
>
> Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but which processor do you use?
>
> Best regards,
> Jens
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In deep sleep, the processor is completely powered down, only the RTCC
> > continues running. It can only be awakened by an external interrupt
> > (push button rather than motion sensor).
>
> > Michel
>
> > On Apr 21, 7:23 am, jb-electronics
> > wrote:
> >> Looks very good!
>
> >>> Total circuit power is about 10uA during standby mode and 2uA during
> >>> deep sleep.
> >>> Deep sleep will be entered after a standby time-out to save battery
> >>> life. Clock will still run in deep-sleep mode.
> >> I am curious: Do you use an external interrupt to wake the processor in
> >> case of a motion etc? This might be useful and could avoid the "standby
> >> mode" altogether.
>
> >> Jens

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

Hi Jens,

That's how I did it on my concept board, with an external interrupt.
Problem is that I need more components to be able to generate the
interrupt and believe it or not, it actually used more current.
Standby mode means the processor is in sleep mode but wakes up about 8
times per second to check the sensor. The sensor only uses 2uA but the
processor uses more current in sleep than in deep sleep mode, so all
together it is 10uA.

In deep sleep, the processor is completely powered down, only the RTCC
continues running. It can only be awakened by an external interrupt
(push button rather than motion sensor).

Michel



On Apr 21, 7:23 am, jb-electronics 
wrote:
> Looks very good!
>
> > Total circuit power is about 10uA during standby mode and 2uA during
> > deep sleep.
> > Deep sleep will be entered after a standby time-out to save battery
> > life. Clock will still run in deep-sleep mode.
>
> I am curious: Do you use an external interrupt to wake the processor in
> case of a motion etc? This might be useful and could avoid the "standby
> mode" altogether.
>
> Jens

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

Thanks Dieter, do the tubes look almost as nice as your blue dream
clocks? ;-)




On Apr 20, 5:27 pm, Dieter Waechter  wrote:
> Very well done Michel!!!
>
> Am 20.04.2012 08:26, schrieb Cobra007:
>
> > Second glimpse of the Nixie Watch.
>
>  >cut<

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

Second glimpse of the Nixie Watch.

The software is taking shape, it can display the time by motion
detection and return back to sleep.
The basis for the complete menu structure for all settings has also
been programmed.
At the moment it displays the time registers, but the registers
themselves are not updated yet.

Total circuit power is about 10uA during standby mode and 2uA during
deep sleep.
Deep sleep will be entered after a standby time-out to save battery
life. Clock will still run in deep-sleep mode.

I think it's about one more week to finish the program. It is very
structured and very flexible, exactly the way I want it to be.
Sometimes I leave it alone for a whole day, just to come up with the
perfect solution for a specific routine.

http://youtu.be/xOFn7Ovd0HA

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-18 Blue Dream Nixie Clock Review

[Cobra007]

That is a great review (and a great clock).

Thanks to Brain, or thanks to Brian ? :-)

Michel



On Apr 17, 6:13 am, "Dieter Waechter"  wrote:
> Hi!
> The IN-18 Blue Dream Nixie Clock Review is out!
> Watch it!http://vimeo.com/40193867
>
> Thanks to Brain! ;-)
> Dieter

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[neonixie-l] Re: I2C pullups - are they always necessary?

[Cobra007]

Just an idea, if you really don't have space for an extra resistor,
the port B has internal pull-ups that can be enabled and might do the
trick for you. You won't be able to use the I2C peripheral of the PIC
in that situation as it is on port C and cannot be re-located on the
18F2520, but with a bit of bit banging, this is not a problem.

Michel



On Apr 16, 3:37 am, Quixotic Nixotic  wrote:
> People seem to find my Clock-It website and there's been a lot of interest
> in my one and two tube clocks. I've got a reasonable set of fades and
> display modes and I have also got a routine so the cathodes for each tube
> can be swapped around by the user
>
> People keep asking me if I can supply a kit so I thought it was about time
> I put something together for other people. So I am working on a small set
> of modular boards, very much with the home constructor in mind, who tend to
> not like soldering surface mount parts, so I am trying to avoid their use
> completely, while designing a compact layout. The DS2321 will be the only
> surface mount part, which I am going to have space for on the board, but
> with the option to piggy-back a separate pre-soldered plug-in part which I
> can supply if people don't feel up to soldering it themselves.
>
> The 18F2520 PIC ports I am using for the I2C bus say they are TTL, so
> presumably they are not open collector, thus my question whether I need any
> additional pullups.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, 15 April 2012 17:50:43 UTC+1, Quixotic Nixotic wrote:
>
> > I am driving a DS3231 I2C clock from a PIC's pins. If the logic state of
> > the pins is always high or low, do I really need pullups on the bus? The
> > only reason I ask is that space is at a premium.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

The ripple is practically 0mA when driven on the low 6mA current, it
changes to about 50mA at maximum current (200mA). I do smooth that out
with a parallel capacitor.

As it adjusts the tube brightness according to the amount of ambient
light, it is a bit difficult to say how long a battery will last. I
will need to measure an average reading over one day, or maybe even
one week. As what I can see now, I would say the average reading
requires around 50 - 75mA for say 1.5 seconds per reading. I am pretty
sure the battery will last for 1 year, but more accurate measurements
need to be done.

The battery I use is 750mAh and can easily supply 200mA. There's also
batteries that are around 1200mAh but can only supply 50-75mA. If the
watch is mainly used indoors, a long life battery would be sufficient.
Anyway, this all needs further testing.

Michel




On Apr 14, 9:13 pm, Dekatron42  wrote:
> Very nice to finally see some pictures/videos and figures on what we
> can expect!
>
> A long life test with simulated user behaviour would be excellent, I
> am sure that it is on your list but the sooner you show a figure of
> that the sooner we (I) will know what to expect of the battery life.
>
> Also as Jens says it is important to check what the battery
> manufacturers say about sudden power usages from the battery as some
> batteries do not like that at all. You might already have thought
> about this and used a capacitor as the ripple current storage, I have
> not seen any comments on that.
>
> /Martin
>
> On 14 Apr, 04:23, Cobra007  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 14, 5:14 am, J Forbes  wrote:
>
> > > What battery are you using in the prototype? is it the same one you're
> > > planning to use in the watch?
>
> > Yes, same battery 1/2AA size.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

On Apr 14, 5:14 am, J Forbes  wrote:
> What battery are you using in the prototype? is it the same one you're
> planning to use in the watch?
>

Yes, same battery 1/2AA size.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

Hi Jens,

It truly is 6mA average DC battery current (3.6V battery). It amazed
me as well, but the measurement is correct.

What you said is right, the tubes need a minimum current, say 1mA but
they don't need that all the time, you can PWM that which reduces the
average current to something much lower than 1mA. So although you PWM
that with say 1mA peaks, the average current is only a fraction of
that (about 1/25 if I remember well).

Michel



On Apr 13, 7:47 pm, jb-electronics 
wrote:
> Hi Michel,
>
> the 6mA confuse me:
>
> Even if your batteries supplied 12V, that gives you P = 12V x 6mA =
> 72mW. The tubes need at least 1mA at 150V (very conservative again),
> which makes it P' = 2 x 1mA x 150V = 300mW.
>
> Do you see my confusion? For that to work, your switching mode power
> supply would have to have an efficiency larger than 100% ;-)
>
> Your 20mA seem much more plausible. Are you sure you measured the
> current correctly, or am I missing something?
>
> Best regards,
> Jens
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks everybody! I'm going to wear this watch 24 hours a day once
> > finished :-) Have been looking forward to that for about 3 months now
> > since I came up with this plan.
>
> > Interestingly, I am not even surprised by the efficiency of the
> > circuit (I had predicted 80% - 90% in one of my first posts). The
> > thing that surprises me most is that you can actually run these tubes
> > on just 6mA battery current (I had predicted 20mA, so I was way to
> > conservative). Don't you think that is amazing? 6mA? The tubes look
> > very dark in the video at this low current, but honestly, if you walk
> > outside at night they appear just bright enough.
>
> > Michel
>
> > On Apr 12, 11:16 pm, Lucky  wrote:
> >> Great little taster (or should that be 'teaser') Michel, look forward to
> >> seeing you develop it further, must be great seeing it finally take shape.
>
> >> On Thursday, 12 April 2012 09:50:39 UTC+8, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> >>> I had a bit of time this week to get the first module working. It's
> >>> not finished yet, at the moment it only counts from 00 to 59, but for
> >>> as long as that works, the rest is just a bit of coding.
> >>> This video shows the tubes at maximum brightness (which is about 2mA
> >>> DC average per tube @ 200mA battery current), and afterwards at
> >>> minimum brightness @ 6mA battery current. Efficiency is about 85% and
> >>> since I don't use resistors in the HV circuit, all this power is
> >>> converted into tube power (and a bit for the blue LEDs).
> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AklybAgVMmk
> >>> Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

Thanks everybody! I'm going to wear this watch 24 hours a day once
finished :-) Have been looking forward to that for about 3 months now
since I came up with this plan.

Interestingly, I am not even surprised by the efficiency of the
circuit (I had predicted 80% - 90% in one of my first posts). The
thing that surprises me most is that you can actually run these tubes
on just 6mA battery current (I had predicted 20mA, so I was way to
conservative). Don't you think that is amazing? 6mA? The tubes look
very dark in the video at this low current, but honestly, if you walk
outside at night they appear just bright enough.

Michel





On Apr 12, 11:16 pm, Lucky  wrote:
> Great little taster (or should that be 'teaser') Michel, look forward to
> seeing you develop it further, must be great seeing it finally take shape.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, 12 April 2012 09:50:39 UTC+8, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > I had a bit of time this week to get the first module working. It's
> > not finished yet, at the moment it only counts from 00 to 59, but for
> > as long as that works, the rest is just a bit of coding.
>
> > This video shows the tubes at maximum brightness (which is about 2mA
> > DC average per tube @ 200mA battery current), and afterwards at
> > minimum brightness @ 6mA battery current. Efficiency is about 85% and
> > since I don't use resistors in the HV circuit, all this power is
> > converted into tube power (and a bit for the blue LEDs).
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AklybAgVMmk
>
> > Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

Thanks Jim, really appreciate that! The module fits nicely in my 50mm
diameter & 16.5mm thick enslosure.

Michel



On Apr 12, 12:02 pm, J Forbes  wrote:
> Looks good! How is it doing for size?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cobra007 wrote:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AklybAgVMmk
>
> > Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

Thanks Jim, really appreciate that! The module is 46mm in diameter and
about 13.5mm high. It fits nicely in the 16.5mm high, 50mm diameter
enclosure.

Michel



On Apr 12, 12:02 pm, J Forbes  wrote:
> Looks good! How is it doing for size?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cobra007 wrote:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AklybAgVMmk
>
> > Michel

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[neonixie-l] Nixie Watch First Glimpse

[Cobra007]

I had a bit of time this week to get the first module working. It's
not finished yet, at the moment it only counts from 00 to 59, but for
as long as that works, the rest is just a bit of coding.

This video shows the tubes at maximum brightness (which is about 2mA
DC average per tube @ 200mA battery current), and afterwards at
minimum brightness @ 6mA battery current. Efficiency is about 85% and
since I don't use resistors in the HV circuit, all this power is
converted into tube power (and a bit for the blue LEDs).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AklybAgVMmk

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Happy Easter!

[Cobra007]

Happy Easter from Sydney too!

Hope I don't mix up the nixie tubes and sausages before throwing them
on the barbie!

Michel



On Apr 8, 9:54 am, Imbanon  wrote:
> Happy Easter to all the nixie tube lovers! Go have some nice Easter
> breakfast with your families :)

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie watch prototype in ABS with key parts

[Cobra007]

>
> Opinions for and against I don't mind, but I would like to see the tone of
> the discussions lifted; please?
>
> regards,
> John Kaesehagen
> Australia
>

No worries John, I know what you're saying.

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie watch prototype in ABS with key parts

[Cobra007]

>
> I plan to make more prototypes myself in a while. I have an Ultimaker 3D
> printer kit in a box waiting for me to assemble it, after I get caught
> up on shipping product to waiting customers.
>
> --
> David Forbes, Tucson AZ

If you're planning to make prototypes soon, then why the rush to have
this one printed, throw some parts in there and quickly post some
pictures? I didn't see your pictures yesterday, but I just realized it
is quite surprising they were posted not long after I posted mine on
facebook. Is that a coincidence or are the two linked together?

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nixie-Watch/146174782160870

If you're wondering if my case is printed, no it's not. It's made of
aluminium screwed onto a stainless steel base. I used high grade
etching primer before coating it with US Army olive drab color that
meets FS595 specifications.

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie watch prototype in ABS with key parts

[Cobra007]

Additive manufacturing is a real nice technology and it represents
very much the final product. Do you know what caused the smear type
effect on the surface? It was so strange because I didn't see it
anywhere else on the watch case, it just started from the inner
contour and abruptly ended at the outer contour so it really seemed
like this was done on purpose.

Michel



On Apr 7, 4:44 pm, David Forbes  wrote:
> On 4/6/12 8:54 PM, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > I am thinking maybe the 3D printed end result was just different from
> > your design, what are those "smears" at the surface of the watch case?
> > I actually thought you had done this on purpose to make it appear
> > looking older, but maybe this is just how it got out of the printer:
>
> >http://xiac.com/Images/nwl_proto1_fronta.jpg
>
> > How long would it take to print this in high resolution?
>
> > Michel
>
> The 3D printed prototype is only an approximation of the final product.
> It's not intended to be an exact version of the watch. It's very nice to
> be able to hold an actual part in your hands to see what it looks like.
> I don't know that I will ever make a 3D printed one that's good enough
> to be considered a product.
>
> I plan to make more prototypes myself in a while. I have an Ultimaker 3D
> printer kit in a box waiting for me to assemble it, after I get caught
> up on shipping product to waiting customers.
>
> --
> David Forbes, Tucson AZ

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie watch prototype in ABS with key parts

[Cobra007]

Sure I understand that it will be an aluminium case. I didn't say
anything about the case, the case is fine, I was only referring to the
smears on the front of the case which I initially thought were put
intentionally there to make it look old. Maybe I am the only one, but
I didn't notice them as printing issues until David mentioned the
lower resolution and temperature issues.

Michel





On Apr 7, 3:25 pm, J Forbes  wrote:
> I think the plan is to make the watch from aluminum, using CNC
> machining. The plastic prototype is just a plastic prototype, to play
> with it and see how the parts fit, etc. Is there anything else about
> the design you don't like besides the quickie 3d printing issues?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cobra007 wrote:
> > I am thinking maybe the 3D printed end result was just different from
> > your design, what are those "smears" at the surface of the watch case?
> > I actually thought you had done this on purpose to make it appear
> > looking older, but maybe this is just how it got out of the printer:

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie watch prototype in ABS with key parts

[Cobra007]

I am thinking maybe the 3D printed end result was just different from
your design, what are those "smears" at the surface of the watch case?
I actually thought you had done this on purpose to make it appear
looking older, but maybe this is just how it got out of the printer:

http://xiac.com/Images/nwl_proto1_fronta.jpg


How long would it take to print this in high resolution?

Michel




On Apr 7, 1:35 pm, David Forbes  wrote:
> On 4/6/12 5:03 PM, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > Just a question, is this one of those entry level 3D printers that
> > retail for around $1000 or so? I was actually thinking of buying one,
> > but if this comes out of that printer, I am not really that
> > enthusiastic about it.
>
> > Michel
>
> Yes, it is a Makerbot. It's also adjusted somewhat cold, which results
> in the plastic forming round beads.
>
> It can be adjusted for finer resolution and smoother surfaces, but those
> prints take a lot longer to make. This was a quick prototype - the guy
> only spent 90 minutes from receiving the .stl file via email to the
> finished product!
>
> --
> David Forbes, Tucson AZ

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie watch prototype in ABS with key parts

[Cobra007]

Yes, I know it is notoriously difficult to express a personal honest
opinion about someone else's design, especially if that is not in line
with the creator's (or other members) opinion, but does that truly
mean that you can only reply with positive comments or keep quiet?

I have absolutely no problem with other people's opinion. On another
website someone called my design "a big mess", which is totally fine
with me, I would just like to know how they think it can be improved,
or what has led to their conclusion.

Where exactly did you see my vaporware?

Happy Easter everybody!

Michel


On Apr 7, 1:09 pm, Terry S  wrote:
> Maybe you should keep those kind of opinions to yourself. All we've
> seen from you is vaporware.
>
> On Apr 6, 7:00 pm, Cobra007  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I respect what you're trying to do here (create something that looks
> > old), but IMHO I say with a soft voice that it doesn't look very
> > attractive. But maybe that was just what you intended to create, so in
> > that case you definitely put onto the table what you had in your mind.
>
> > Michel
>
> > On Apr 6, 3:01 pm, David Forbes  wrote:
>
> > > Folks,
>
> > > I have been fortunate to have a young friend with a 3D printer offer to
> > > make a couple prototype cases of my new rechargeable Nixie watch case
> > > for me. I also obtained some larger LiPo batteries.
>
> > > I've taken the liberty of putting a couple tubes, a transformer and a
> > > 200 MaH battery into the case for your amusement.
>
> > >http://www.cathodecorner.com/nwl-render/nwl_proto1_fronta.jpghttp://w...
>
> > > The empty space in the right side of the case is reserved for the logic
> > > board and pushbutton switches. There's also a micro USB charging port in
> > > there somewhere.
>
> > > You may notice that the digits aren't vertically centered in the front
> > > opening. That's what prototypes are for.
>
> > > --
> > > David Forbes, Tucson AZ- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie watch prototype in ABS with key parts

[Cobra007]

Just a question, is this one of those entry level 3D printers that
retail for around $1000 or so? I was actually thinking of buying one,
but if this comes out of that printer, I am not really that
enthusiastic about it.

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie watch prototype in ABS with key parts

[Cobra007]

I respect what you're trying to do here (create something that looks
old), but IMHO I say with a soft voice that it doesn't look very
attractive. But maybe that was just what you intended to create, so in
that case you definitely put onto the table what you had in your mind.

Michel




On Apr 6, 3:01 pm, David Forbes  wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I have been fortunate to have a young friend with a 3D printer offer to
> make a couple prototype cases of my new rechargeable Nixie watch case
> for me. I also obtained some larger LiPo batteries.
>
> I've taken the liberty of putting a couple tubes, a transformer and a
> 200 MaH battery into the case for your amusement.
>
> http://www.cathodecorner.com/nwl-render/nwl_proto1_fronta.jpghttp://www.cathodecorner.com/nwl-render/nwl_proto1_backa.jpg
>
> The empty space in the right side of the case is reserved for the logic
> board and pushbutton switches. There's also a micro USB charging port in
> there somewhere.
>
> You may notice that the digits aren't vertically centered in the front
> opening. That's what prototypes are for.
>
> --
> David Forbes, Tucson AZ

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[neonixie-l] Re: A beautiful Nixie clock!

[Cobra007]

Yes, I definitely agree with you, a real work of art. I like the
steampunk look of this clock. It was inspired by the lantern clock, as
he also mentioned in the video, but he definitely gave it an extra
dimension. The only thing I don't really like is the up-side-down 2
rather than a real 5, but hey, that is just a detail!.

Michel



On Apr 6, 9:46 am, morrisodell  wrote:
> That is a real work of art. Probably the most beautiful nixie clock I
> have seen so far.
>
> Morris
>
> On Apr 5, 11:26 pm, MichaelB  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC4KPoyhBgU

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[neonixie-l] Re: Looking for advice on shift registers

[Cobra007]

I never used an Arduino before but this seems like all you need to
know about the SPI:

http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/SPI

The bit-bang method is still interesting to try things out as you get
to fully understand what will happen once you start using the SPI.

Michel



On Apr 1, 11:10 am, Dylan Distasio  wrote:
> Thanks for the comments on the SPI, David and Adam.  I'll look into that
> approach.  I'm excited to pick up some new skills/tricks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:02 PM, Adam Jacobs  wrote:
> > Yep, if you're trying to bit-bang the SPI then you are definitely
> > re-inventing the wheel. Look at Arduino "sketches" for other SPI devices
> > and see how they do it there. I don't have any arduino experience so I
> > can't be of much help either, but I've used the SPI port on the AVR many
> > many many times and it's a breeze.
>
> > -Adam
>
> > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:48 PM, David Forbes wrote:
>
> >> On 3/31/12 3:28 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote:
>
> >>> Hi all-
>
> >>> I've been circling back to the nixie clock project I am working on that
> >>> starts with a base kit of 6 IN-14s each with their own module that
> >>> contains a PCB with a 74141 on it.  I have never used shift registers
> >>> before, but finally got around to some initial experiments driving one
> >>> 74HC595 with an Arduino connected to one set of 74141 inputs (ABCD) to
> >>> keep things simple.  I was able to get the different digits lit up based
> >>> on my code, but am wondering if I am missing something in terms of ease
> >>> of use here.
>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Dylan
>
> >> Dylan,
>
> >> A clever programmer will figure out how to use the Arduino's SPI port
> >> with the 74HC595s to eliminate all the software work of banging out the
> >> bits. I've never used an Arduino, so I don't know how it's done. I've used
> >> this chip with the PIC SPI port, and it works.
>
> >> --
> >> David Forbes, Tucson AZ
>
> >> --
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> >> .
>
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[neonixie-l] Re: Yet another scope clock

[Cobra007]

What kind of protective coating did you use to prevent the elements
from corroding your copper parts?

Michel



On Mar 8, 4:20 am, Grahame Marsh  wrote:
> http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/scope1.html
>
> Enjoy
>
> Grahame

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[neonixie-l] Re: Raytheon CK1414F10C monoscopes on E-bay

[Cobra007]

Let's see who will win the race to make the first clock with these
tubes :-).

I still wonder how it will scan a character, do you set the "X-Y"
voltages for the character and then perform a scan of the character,
or do you scan a series of characters slice by slice? If you want your
signal to be compatible for a PAL TV, I think you have to scan a row
of characters slice by slice, but that would make it more complicated
than scanning character by character.

Michel





On Mar 26, 7:32 pm, lai...@wcoil.com wrote:
> The seller evidently had 20 of these tubes. After I bought one and made my
> posting. (I thought it was a good idea to buy first!) The sales went on at
> a good clip. Somebody must have a use for them as they bought 10! I ended
> up buying a total of 5 as the seller would not sell to buyers outside the
> US. So I was contacted by 3 people from this list and the TCA list and
> asked to make purchases for them which I did. We will all have to wait a
> while for the tubes to be shipped as the seller contacted me and told me
> he was out of town on business.
>   It would be pretty nifty to build a CRT clock or Four or more letter
> word using one of these tubes to produce the characters. It would have
> to be a raster scan though from what I understand.
>                                                  Tim

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[neonixie-l] Re: Raytheon CK1414F10C monoscopes on E-bay

[Cobra007]

I would like to see that too, with all analogue technology to drive
the monoscope and CRT. Not so easy to replicate I think. From Nick's
datasheets it seems like they used this type of tube for flight
information screens in airports. So I may well have seen this in the
early 1970's, but never realized how it actually worked :-).

Michel


On Mar 25, 5:00 am, kay486  wrote:
> They look really nice and interesting! Id really love to see it in action.
> I havent found any videos/pictures though. Does somebody know where to find
> any?

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[neonixie-l] Re: Raytheon CK1414F10C monoscopes on E-bay

[Cobra007]

Interesting, it sounds like a very complicated way to display
characters. Your datasheet is dated 1966, I thought they would have
had some more modern technology by that time?

Michel



On Mar 24, 7:24 pm, Nick  wrote:
> On Mar 24, 8:12 am, Cobra007  wrote:
>
> > What does that exactly do? It looks like it is something similar to a
> > more modern character generator ROM. Is that right?
>
> Similar sort of idea, but more flexible. Have a look at my post above
> - there are photos, comments & datasheet in that...
>
> Nick

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[neonixie-l] Re: Raytheon CK1414F10C monoscopes on E-bay

[Cobra007]

What does that exactly do? It looks like it is something similar to a
more modern character generator ROM. Is that right?

Michel



On Mar 24, 4:12 pm, lai...@wcoil.com wrote:
> Standard disclaimer not my auction not affiliated with the seller.
> Somebody has Raytheon CK1414F10C monoscopes buy it now for $20.00 + 10.00
> shipping on Ebay more than 10 available.  They appear new in the box FAA
> surplus  Item number 300677567307.  You can see the symbols on the target
> plate at the end of the tube. Pretty nifty piece of technological history.
>                                                   Tim Laing

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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

It's an interesting combination those 2 npn transistors. The signal on
the base is actually inverted compared to "normal" npn/pnp
transistors. When T2, T3, T5 are switched off, the tubes are actually
on :-). That's also where your leakage problem comes from if you ask
me. You choose 220k resistors, which means the lowest possible anode
voltage is half the supply voltage (215V / (220k + 220k)) * 220k =
107.5V. You better choose a lower resistor that goes to the collector
of T2, T3, T5 (maybe 100k). This will bring the anode voltage down to
about 68V.

I don't have a price yet for my modules, they won't be expensive of
course but I need to wait until I have a finished product.

Michel



On Mar 23, 5:00 am, Imbanon  wrote:
> Sorry about that. I thought it was an universal shematic file type,
> 'cause they are all .sch
>
> Here's the pic  http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?5903q1ur3inc729
> Cheers
>
> On Mar 22, 4:14 pm, Adam Jacobs  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Would you mind converting that schematic to some kind of image file? Is
> > that an eaglecad file?
>
> > blanking on the 74141 will cause leakage if the supply voltage is too
> > high. Are you using real 74141's or the russian kind?
> >  From that picture, I'm not sure if that is leakage.
>
> > -Adam
>
> > On 3/22/2012 5:19 AM, Imbanon wrote:
>
> > > Hey all
>
> > > I found some time to make a schematic. It only shows the two 74141,
> > > nixie tubes and anode drivers.
> > > I also tried blanking nixies via 74141. I would have never guessed
> > > that you meant on hex code, as I am doing this on an arduino :)
> > > Blanking nixies with 74141's give me a lot of leaking (or at least I
> > > think thats leaking), so I'm not so sure about using this method. But
> > > I do think that it's maybe possible to divide the leaking to the rest
> > > of the nixies by adding a resistor for each anode, instead of sharing
> > > them. See for yourself in the links.
>
> > >http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?bbx4z4k5vjul56b
> > >http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ym4s96yeusrm9sy
>
> > > So I guess my next move should be to remove the trimpots, and replace
> > > them with actual resistors for each anode.
> > > But what should I do with the blanking? To be honest, I would leave
> > > the setup as is, because it seems to work fine. But if you guys think
> > > I can do something better to get a longer tube life, I will make
> > > changes to the schematic immediately.
>
> > > Thanks!
>
> > > On Mar 19, 12:04 am, Dylan Distasio  wrote:
> > >> I'm very interested in hearing more about this module...Are you saying 
> > >> you
> > >> are having this custom manufactured?  If so, how have you found a way to 
> > >> do
> > >> this economically?
>
> > >> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Cobra007  wrote:
>
> > >>> For my clock I am designing a module as I am not really a fan to use
> > >>> these types of old TTL logic. It's a 24 pin module that fits into a
> > >>> DIP24 IC socket. It basically mimics the 74141 but has high voltage
> > >>> output mosfets (240V) and the 4 inputs can be latched, so you don't
> > >>> need extra latches as required by the standard 74141. It also offers a
> > >>> blanking input, either by writing 0x0a or using a dedicated pin (which
> > >>> is convenient for PWM dimming). It can be interfaced with MCU or
> > >>> arduino.
> > >>> Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: converting pc diagrams from old magazines

[Cobra007]

I would choose for number 2, used that method before and worked out
really well. I think it'a also the quickest way and perfect if you
want to make multiple boards.

Michel



On Mar 22, 7:55 pm, Quixotic Nixotic  wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2012, at 01:19, P.Berk wrote:
>
> > Can anyone point me to how to convert a full-size pc board diagram from an 
> > old magazine to a form that a pc board manufacturer can use. I have some 8 
> > x 8 inch diagrams which I need 2-3 boards made.
> > Thanks for any help   Phil Berk
>
> 1] Scan it, autotrace it, spend hours retouching it. Import vectors into PCB 
> program in whatever format it understands. I use Osmond PCB and it imports 
> DXF. Mess about with it some more filling paths. Probably end up disappointed 
> with result. Send to board house eventually.
>
> 2] Scan it, import it into your PCB program as a background to trace over. 
> Place components and tracks to match your scan. I use Osmond PCB, it places a 
> background PDF to trace over. Send to board house.
>
> 3] Laser photocopy from magazine onto a fine surfaced calendered or chalk 
> coated paper - iron toner onto FR4 copper board, etch, clean toner off and 
> drill.
>
> 4] As 3, but use expensive blue Press 'n' Peel paper, sold for the purpose.
>
> 5] As 3 and 4 but scan from magazine into computer and output onto paper 
> using a black and white laser printer.
>
> 6] Replicate the circuit on perforated board, vero, tripad, single pad, point 
> to point wiring, Roadrunner etc.
>
> 7] Photocopy mag. Tape photocopy onto FR4 copper board. Drill all holes 
> through and deburr. Use permanent marker pens, Staedtler Lumo series, maybe 
> Sanford Sharpie or similar, to draw interconnecting paths. Paint on girly 
> nail varnish for large areas of retained copper. I always go for a dark hue 
> to suit my complexion. Erm, I mean choose dark because you need it to show up 
> well so you can see where you put it, don't use clear. Etch board.
>
> 8] As above but use 'Letraset' style rub down transfers onto copper instead 
> of using pens. Hard to find maybe these days. Check your craft shop, see if 
> they have suitable sets of lines.
>
> 9] Use a RepRap with a pen to draw your PCB design onto 
> copper.http://ultimachine.com/content/printing-circuit-boards-mendel
>
> If you do your own etching, whatever you use as an acid resist, degrease your 
> copper boards first and don't touch the surface with your greasy fingers. 
> Wear thin cotton or latex gloves if necessary.
>
> 8x8 is a fair old size, good luck.
>
> John S

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[neonixie-l] Re: Beginner suggestions for PCB design

[Cobra007]

Seems quite advanced for something that is completely free. Does
anyone know how this compares to Multisim / Ultiboard? What I
specifically like about Multisim / Ultiboard is that it stores the
information of the parts in the design files. So even if you open the
files on another computer that has a different component library, it
still has all the information there. It also has an in-circuit part
editor which is sometimes also very handy (move / change sizes of pads
while not having to make a new footprint). The simulator (Electronic
Work Bench) works also quite well although it may run quickly into
errors on more complicated circuits.

Michel




On Mar 22, 5:17 am, Ron Schuster  wrote:
> Check out the DesignSpark PCB 
> program.http://www.designspark.com/theme/designspark-pcb
> It does schematic and PCB layout and includes an auto-router, a 3D
> view feature, and a very large library of components. It seems very
> professional and full-featured. It's free and it doesn't have any
> limitations on board size like the free version of Eagle.
>
> On Mar 18, 7:07 pm, Dylan Distasio  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi all-
>
> > I am interested in ultimately getting my own PCBs manufactured, but am
> > still learning the ropes in terms of circuit design.  Does anyone have any
> > recommendations on how to get started?  I'm open to any and all suggestions
> > on reading materials, PCB design programs like Eagle, and any other tips /
> > tricks that would be useful for a beginner.  I was considering doing a
> > DTF104B single digit clock as a starter project to keep things relatively
> > simple, and plan to eventually design a case also.
>
> > Thanks,
> > Dylan

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[neonixie-l] Re: converting pc diagrams from old magazines

[Cobra007]

It can be done, but it could be quite a lot of work. Can you post a
scan from the magazine and a scan from the circuit itself as well?

Michel



On Mar 21, 12:19 pm, P.Berk  wrote:
> Can anyone point me to how to convert a full-size pc board diagram from an 
> old magazine to a form that a pc board manufacturer can use. I have some 8 x 
> 8 inch diagrams which I need 2-3 boards made.
> Thanks for any help   Phil Berk

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[neonixie-l] Re: B-4998 on ebay

[Cobra007]

Should have pushed the "buy it now" button as soon as they came up on
ebay Only 10 pieces left not really worth the effort to design
another watch.

Michel



On Mar 20, 11:19 am, Jeff Thomas  wrote:
> Nice to see some of these little nixies surface.
> Perfect if you want to build a tiny nixie watch.
>
> Regards, Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, March 19, 2012 2:28:22 PM UTC-7, marcin wrote:
>
> > Hi Guys,
> > auction 290686043596 offers them in quantity. The pins look bent.
> > Seller says they are new, only badly stored.
> > I have no interest in this, just thought that maybe somebody may be
> > interested.
> > Marcin

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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

That should be fine Adam, I should have 50 modules in a couple of
weeks so I do have a few spares :-).

Michel



On Mar 19, 11:31 am, Adam Jacobs  wrote:
> I would be interested in this as well. Are you planning to market and
> sell these modules?
>
> On 3/18/2012 4:19 PM, Cobra007 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Dylan,
>
> > It is actually a small circuit board that I have manufactured together
> > with the nixie watch circuit boards to save costs. The circuit board
> > is the size of a DIP24 chip and has an SMD 4514 multiplexer that
> > drives 10 high voltage SMD mosfets. There is 1 spare mosfet on the
> > board that is not driven by the multiplexer, it can be used to drive
> > the colon lamps for example, not really a dedicated purpose but I had
> > board space left over :-). It's pretty basic really, but very
> > convenient to use.
>
> > Michel
>
> > On Mar 19, 10:04 am, Dylan Distasio  wrote:
> >> I'm very interested in hearing more about this module...Are you saying you
> >> are having this custom manufactured?  If so, how have you found a way to do
> >> this economically?
>
> >> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Cobra007  wrote:
>
> >>> For my clock I am designing a module as I am not really a fan to use
> >>> these types of old TTL logic. It's a 24 pin module that fits into a
> >>> DIP24 IC socket. It basically mimics the 74141 but has high voltage
> >>> output mosfets (240V) and the 4 inputs can be latched, so you don't
> >>> need extra latches as required by the standard 74141. It also offers a
> >>> blanking input, either by writing 0x0a or using a dedicated pin (which
> >>> is convenient for PWM dimming). It can be interfaced with MCU or
> >>> arduino.
> >>> Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

Hi Dylan,

It is actually a small circuit board that I have manufactured together
with the nixie watch circuit boards to save costs. The circuit board
is the size of a DIP24 chip and has an SMD 4514 multiplexer that
drives 10 high voltage SMD mosfets. There is 1 spare mosfet on the
board that is not driven by the multiplexer, it can be used to drive
the colon lamps for example, not really a dedicated purpose but I had
board space left over :-). It's pretty basic really, but very
convenient to use.

Michel



On Mar 19, 10:04 am, Dylan Distasio  wrote:
> I'm very interested in hearing more about this module...Are you saying you
> are having this custom manufactured?  If so, how have you found a way to do
> this economically?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Cobra007  wrote:
>
> > For my clock I am designing a module as I am not really a fan to use
> > these types of old TTL logic. It's a 24 pin module that fits into a
> > DIP24 IC socket. It basically mimics the 74141 but has high voltage
> > output mosfets (240V) and the 4 inputs can be latched, so you don't
> > need extra latches as required by the standard 74141. It also offers a
> > blanking input, either by writing 0x0a or using a dedicated pin (which
> > is convenient for PWM dimming). It can be interfaced with MCU or
> > arduino.
>
> > Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

If you take 7.3k resistors rather than 3.65k resistors, the tubes will
only be 6dB less bright which is not significant. If that increases
tube life, I would say, that is the better choice as you pointed out
already.

For blanking, I think Adam means to send a hex number (0x0A) to the
74141 (D=1; C=0; B=1; A=0). According to the datasheet, this would
lead to a correct blanking of the tubes.

For my clock I am designing a module as I am not really a fan to use
these types of old TTL logic. It's a 24 pin module that fits into a
DIP24 IC socket. It basically mimics the 74141 but has high voltage
output mosfets (240V) and the 4 inputs can be latched, so you don't
need extra latches as required by the standard 74141. It also offers a
blanking input, either by writing 0x0a or using a dedicated pin (which
is convenient for PWM dimming). It can be interfaced with MCU or
arduino.

Michel







On Mar 19, 6:21 am, Imbanon  wrote:
> Hey Cobra! Thanks you for your explanation. I see what you did there,
> and you are quite correct. But the thing is that I did not calculate
> anything using power. You are completely right with the brightness,
> but I do not want the same brightness as with direct drived nixies. I
> lean towards tube life, and I think that the only way to achieve this
> is by getting the correct current, and that would be around 2mA.
>
> I will make a schematic and share it, hopefully tomorrow, if I find
> some time.
>
> My first design was 1x6, but I wasn't happy with the brightness. It
> also required some higher current peaks, which can't be good for the
> tubes. 2x3 mux design gives better brightness, but uses one more pin.
>
> And can someone please explain how does one blank a 74141? Adam, what
> do you mean by setting the input to A? Setting a logic 1 to the A
> input pin by the datasheet? That only sets the output to "1". My
> design so far didn't use blanking with the 74141's. I just turned all
> anodes off for 200us, and I never had any ghosting problems or
> anything like that.
>
> Cheers
>
> On Mar 17, 6:35 am, Cobra007  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Imbanon,
>
> > I followed your calculations for quite a bit and was also wondering
> > why your measurements are so much different than your calculations. My
> > calculation suggest that you need a 7.3k resistor for each tube. This
> > means if you have 2 tubes with a common anode connected to 1 resistor,
> > and switch both tubes on at the same time (which you say you do), then
> > you need to half the resistor. In that case, 3.65k.
>
> > Now, I was also puzzled why my resistor calculation results in half of
> > your resistor calculation. The answer is in fact quite simple, and I
> > will try to explain to you.
>
> > First of all, we need to agree that the tube power needs to be the
> > same in both direct drive as well as multiplexed mode to guarantee
> > equal tube brightness. Therefore Pdc = Prms
>
> > Pdc = Udc * Idc
> > and also
> > Prms = Urms * Irms
>
> > Do you notice the problem already?
>
> > Pdc = 145V * 2mA = 0.29W
>
> > Prms = 145*sqrt(T1/T) * Irms
>
> > So, Irms should be 0.29 / Urms = 0.29 / (145*sqrt(T1/T)) = 3.9mA
>
> > Your calculation was based on the fact that Irms had to be 2mA, but
> > this is not correct because it needs to be 3.9mA.
> > The peak current through the resistor is then 3.9mA / sqrt(T1/T) =
> > 7.5mA per tube (15mA if 2 tubes are switched on at the same time).
> > This is exactly what you get if you take the average currents. You
> > want 12mA average current (6 tubes * 2mA). which is 12mA / (26.7 /
> > 33.3) = 15mA.
>
> > Unknowingly, to calculate Prms you were multiplying Irms * Udc, not
> > Irms * Urms.
>
> > Does this make sense?
>
> > I do agree with the rest of the guys that 6 resistors (7.3k) would be
> > better that 3 resistors (3.65k), it will split the current more evenly
> > through the 2 tubes.
>
> > Michel
>
> > On Mar 17, 6:18 am, Imbanon  wrote:
>
> > > First of all, thank you all for your support. Feels great to have some
> > > people with knowledge behind my back.
> > > So many replies since I had time to check the group last time that I
> > > don't know where to start :)
>
> > > I do not have a schematic for my design, as it is my own design that I
> > > pretty much pull out of my head as I go. That often shown like a bad
> > > idea, making me to change a lot of things afterwards. Just like today,
> > > I had to rewire the whole 'spider web'. And that was the second time I
> > > had to do it!
> > > 

[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

Hi Imbanon,

I followed your calculations for quite a bit and was also wondering
why your measurements are so much different than your calculations. My
calculation suggest that you need a 7.3k resistor for each tube. This
means if you have 2 tubes with a common anode connected to 1 resistor,
and switch both tubes on at the same time (which you say you do), then
you need to half the resistor. In that case, 3.65k.

Now, I was also puzzled why my resistor calculation results in half of
your resistor calculation. The answer is in fact quite simple, and I
will try to explain to you.

First of all, we need to agree that the tube power needs to be the
same in both direct drive as well as multiplexed mode to guarantee
equal tube brightness. Therefore Pdc = Prms

Pdc = Udc * Idc
and also
Prms = Urms * Irms

Do you notice the problem already?

Pdc = 145V * 2mA = 0.29W

Prms = 145*sqrt(T1/T) * Irms

So, Irms should be 0.29 / Urms = 0.29 / (145*sqrt(T1/T)) = 3.9mA

Your calculation was based on the fact that Irms had to be 2mA, but
this is not correct because it needs to be 3.9mA.
The peak current through the resistor is then 3.9mA / sqrt(T1/T) =
7.5mA per tube (15mA if 2 tubes are switched on at the same time).
This is exactly what you get if you take the average currents. You
want 12mA average current (6 tubes * 2mA). which is 12mA / (26.7 /
33.3) = 15mA.

Unknowingly, to calculate Prms you were multiplying Irms * Udc, not
Irms * Urms.

Does this make sense?

I do agree with the rest of the guys that 6 resistors (7.3k) would be
better that 3 resistors (3.65k), it will split the current more evenly
through the 2 tubes.

Michel








On Mar 17, 6:18 am, Imbanon  wrote:
> First of all, thank you all for your support. Feels great to have some
> people with knowledge behind my back.
> So many replies since I had time to check the group last time that I
> don't know where to start :)
>
> I do not have a schematic for my design, as it is my own design that I
> pretty much pull out of my head as I go. That often shown like a bad
> idea, making me to change a lot of things afterwards. Just like today,
> I had to rewire the whole 'spider web'. And that was the second time I
> had to do it!
> And I have to clear out that I have a common anode resistor for 2
> tubes, making a total of 3 anode resistors for all 6 tubes. That means
> that the current has to be double (resistance cut by half). I hope
> that it now explains the rounded 8mA (7.74 to be more precise) on the
> anode resistor. It cuts to two nixies, giving appox 3.87mA peak
> current to each tube. So then 3.87*sqrt(0.267)=2mA RMS
> Anyhow, I do believe that I have to use the RMS values when working
> with multiplexed designs, rather than average. Just like someone
> already explained why, because of the power dissipation. I really hope
> it is that way :)
>
> Well that's all for now. I hope that my setup with anode resistors is
> finally done. If not - I still have another week to use all the fancy
> expensive oscilloscopes! So if anyone doesn't agree with this, please
> say the word :)
>
> Cheers
>
> On Mar 16, 9:13 am, Dekatron42  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Many manufacturers write that you will have to contact them for the
> > special curves you need when you are going to multiplex their Nixies
> > since they do not usually print that information in the databooks.
>
> > These sheets show you that the Nixie will have an increased turn-on
> > voltage corresponding to the increased current when run in switched
> > mode. This is the same as when a neon voltage stabilizer tube is used,
> > the voltage increases somewhat when the current increases, you can
> > check the OB2 voltage regulator tube for instance.
>
> > The curves for most Nixies when used in multiplexed mode are not
> > linear so if you can't find those curves you'll have to make the
> > measurements yourself and take into account the spread between
> > different Nixies to draw the curve. Some of these special curves have
> > a voltage span of approximately 10-30V for a certain current through
> > the Nixie, so there is an upper and a lower limit for the turn-on
> > voltage corresponding to the current used.
>
> > This book:http://www.oldtimeradio.de/BU7908.php"Electronica 171 -
> > Elektronische Anzeigebauelemente" by Winfired Müller contains a few of
> > these curves for the ZM-series of Nixies.
>
> > /Martin
>
> > On 16 mar, 00:55, Cobra007  wrote:
>
> > > Yes, I think I mentioned "slightly" increase rather than a mayor
> > > increase.
>
> > > I have measure this on another nixie tube and came to the following
> > > voltages:
> > > 0.5mA : 120V
> > &

[neonixie-l] Re: Shared anode resistor (was: multiplexed nixie's RMS current)

[Cobra007]

I don't use anode resistors either for the obvious reason that they
consume power and therefore reduce the overall efficiency of the
circuit. If the circuit is not powered by batteries, this is not
really a problem, it will only increase the electricity bill :-).

Michel



On Mar 17, 7:39 am, David Forbes  wrote:
> My nixie watch has zero anode resistors. I added a current sense circuit to 
> the HV supply feedback circuit. I only light one tube at a time, using a 
> total of 16 cathode drivers in TD62083 parts. It works fine. See my 
> website-google nixie watch theory to find the page.
>
> David Forbeshttp://www.cathodecorner.com/
>
> On Mar 16, 2012, at 1:40 PM, John Rehwinkel  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> And I have to clear out that I have a common anode resistor for 2
> >> tubes, making a total of 3 anode resistors for all 6 tubes.
>
> > It seems to me that would only work if you only selected a cathode for one 
> > tube at a time.  Otherwise (if you tried to light both tubes at once), only 
> > one tube would light, pulling the
> > anode end of the resistor down to the maintaining voltage, which would be 
> > insufficient
> > to light the second tube (because it is now below the striking voltage).
>
> > - John
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

That makes sense indeed.

What would the reason be to choose for a higher voltage rather than a
lower anode resistor? You can achieve a higher tube current by either
raising the voltage or lowering the resistor, so what is the advantage
of raising the voltage? Is it because ionization will be quicker or
doesn't have that anything to do with it?

Michel



On Mar 16, 7:13 pm, Dekatron42  wrote:
> Many manufacturers write that you will have to contact them for the
> special curves you need when you are going to multiplex their Nixies
> since they do not usually print that information in the databooks.
>
> These sheets show you that the Nixie will have an increased turn-on
> voltage corresponding to the increased current when run in switched
> mode. This is the same as when a neon voltage stabilizer tube is used,
> the voltage increases somewhat when the current increases, you can
> check the OB2 voltage regulator tube for instance.
>
> The curves for most Nixies when used in multiplexed mode are not
> linear so if you can't find those curves you'll have to make the
> measurements yourself and take into account the spread between
> different Nixies to draw the curve. Some of these special curves have
> a voltage span of approximately 10-30V for a certain current through
> the Nixie, so there is an upper and a lower limit for the turn-on
> voltage corresponding to the current used.
>
> This book:http://www.oldtimeradio.de/BU7908.php"Electronica 171 -
> Elektronische Anzeigebauelemente" by Winfired Müller contains a few of
> these curves for the ZM-series of Nixies.
>
> /Martin
>
> On 16 mar, 00:55, Cobra007  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yes, I think I mentioned "slightly" increase rather than a mayor
> > increase.
>
> > I have measure this on another nixie tube and came to the following
> > voltages:
> > 0.5mA : 120V
> > 1.0mA : 125V
> > 1.5mA: 130V
> > 2.0mA: 133V
> > 3.0mA: 140V
> > 4.5mA: 150V
>
> > His tube current will increase from 2mA to about 7.5mA, so according
> > to the above measurements, the increase in tube voltage will be
> > playing a role.
>
> > Michel
>
> > On Mar 16, 10:06 am, Charles MacDonald  wrote:
>
> > > On 12-03-15 05:46 AM, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > > > So it looks like your resistor is correct. The only thing is that the
> > > > voltage across the tube will slightly increase due to the higher
> > > > current, so it's not 100% correct but pretty much.
>
> > > Since we are talking a Neon device, the voltage across the tube will try
> > > to stay the same, with the current adjusting if needed.  That is why
> > > Neon bulbs were used as Voltage reference devices in days of Old.
>
> > > --
> > > Charles MacDonald                 Stittsville Ontario
> > > cm...@zeusprune.ca              Just Beyond the 
> > > Fringehttp://users.trytel.com/~cmacd/tubes.html
> > > No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

Yes, I think I mentioned "slightly" increase rather than a mayor
increase.

I have measure this on another nixie tube and came to the following
voltages:
0.5mA : 120V
1.0mA : 125V
1.5mA: 130V
2.0mA: 133V
3.0mA: 140V
4.5mA: 150V

His tube current will increase from 2mA to about 7.5mA, so according
to the above measurements, the increase in tube voltage will be
playing a role.

Michel





On Mar 16, 10:06 am, Charles MacDonald  wrote:
> On 12-03-15 05:46 AM, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > So it looks like your resistor is correct. The only thing is that the
> > voltage across the tube will slightly increase due to the higher
> > current, so it's not 100% correct but pretty much.
>
> Since we are talking a Neon device, the voltage across the tube will try
> to stay the same, with the current adjusting if needed.  That is why
> Neon bulbs were used as Voltage reference devices in days of Old.
>
> --
> Charles MacDonald                 Stittsville Ontario
> cm...@zeusprune.ca              Just Beyond the 
> Fringehttp://users.trytel.com/~cmacd/tubes.html
> No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

Interestingly, I just realize, if you work this further out you come
to the following formula:

Rmux = Rdc * (T1/T)

Rdc is the anode resistor in direct drive (55V / 2mA = 27.5k)
Rmux is the anode resistor in a multiplexed system = 27.5k * 0.267 =
7.3k :-)

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

It's a bit of a mind game this problem. I was wondering why use rms
values instead of average values. In the end, the result should be the
same I guess.

I had another go at this problem through another approach. The rms
power is defined as the heat dissipated by a resistor due to a voltage
V(t) that is the same as if the resistor was powered by a DC voltage.

So I thought why not take that as a beginning.

In direct drive you want 2mA through each tube. The tube voltage (as
measured) is about 145V and power supply voltage is 200V. This leaves
55V across the anode resistor.
For direct drive, the dissipated heat in the anode resistor would be
55V * 2mA = 110mW = Pdc.

When you go to multiplexed mode, all powers will stay the same because
you want to achieve the same tube brightness. Therefore, the loss in
the anode resistor will also stay the same.
The rms voltage across the resistor is 55V * sqrt(T1/T) with T1/T =
0.267, Vrms will be 28.42V
Then we can calculate the resistor as R = (Vrms ^ 2)/Pdc which is
(28.42 ^ 2)/0.11 = (surprisingly) 7.3k

So it looks like your resistor is correct. The only thing is that the
voltage across the tube will slightly increase due to the higher
current, so it's not 100% correct but pretty much.

This calculation seems ok to me unless I missed something.

Michel




On Mar 14, 8:10 pm, Imbanon  wrote:
> IN-14 strike at 170V, but when multiplexed this should be a bit
> higher. That's why it's set to 200 volts. It then drops to 140V
> according to the datasheet, but in reality, I measured 144. So if I
> take 200-140 it's 60 volts across the anode resistor, giving the peak
> of 8mA.
> But to be honest, I am really confused with this. By my calculations,
> with 26.7% duty cycle per tube, for current of 2mA, I should have a
> peak of 3.864mA ( 2/sqrt(0.267) = 3.864).
> So with my supply stable at 200V and anode resistors of 7.5K, I should
> get the 8mA peak on one tube, or 16mA on two tubes, but I really
> measure current of 6.4mA alltogether that goes from my supply. How is
> this possible? Why should my supply give me 48mA when I need only
> 6.5mA for two tubes at a time? By the way, I am using blanking period
> of 200us, so maybe the current really settles by this time, so the
> supply needs to give enough current for only 2 tubes.
> Can someone clear this out to me?
>
> And about that spider web.. it isn't really as messy as it looks in
> the video. It's just a matter of viewing angle. And everything is
> organised by cable color.
>
> Thanks
>
> On Mar 14, 1:24 am, Cobra007  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Wow, I like that spider web you created there!
>
> > How exactly did you estimate that a 7.5k resistor would result in a
> > 8mA tube current? Honestly, I do not know the nominal voltage of the
> > tube but I don't think it will be less than 150V. In that case, you
> > have a maximum of 50V across your resistor which would only be 6.7mA.
> > If you measure 5.5mA, the voltage across the resistor would be 41.25V
> > so in that case, your resistor should have been between 4.7k and 5.2k
> > to come to 8mA. My best guess is 4.7k. Try one tube and see if the
> > value is then closer to 8mA for that tube. Also check that your 200V
> > stays stable and can supply the required 48mA.
>
> > Michel
>
> > On Mar 14, 10:56 am, Imbanon  wrote:
>
> > > Got my hands on some older Tektronix oscilloscope and a Fluke 199c. I
> > > did quite a lot of measurements, even with the current probe. I
> > > learned a lot about the tubes and their behaviour, but didn't really
> > > solve my problem.
> > > I ended up calculating my anode resistors (around 7.5k), that should
> > > give a peak of 8mA, but gives 5.5mA measured with a scope. You can see
> > > the result in the video below. The quality isn't at it's finest, but
> > > it's better than nothing!
> > > Check it out and tell me what you think.
> > > Also, the supply is set to 200V. It that too 
> > > much?http://youtu.be/p7QNEL8s4l4
>
> > > Thanks everyone
>
> > > On Mar 6, 10:10 pm, "Frank Bemelman" 
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > AC DMM’s always excluded the DC component, if I am not mistaken. For a
> > > > mainly
> > > > troubleshooting tool (citation needed), that is not a bad choice. After 
> > > > all,
> > > > many AC signals
> > > > found in circuits have a DC offset. Assuming sinewaves makes the design 
> > > > of
> > > > the meter
> > > > easier (cheaper).
>
> > > > I would not expect a different behaviour from a DMM that is TRUE RMS. 
> > > > 

[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

Yes, you're right Adam, I have to agree that my previous posts were
indeed very strange :-)

It would have been helpful if he had posted a schematic as I mixed up
the current per tube and the total current a few times.

The thing that is commonly correct is that the power supply's average
current (12mA) should be the same in direct drive as well as
multiplexed to achieve equal tube brightness. To achieve that, he
would need approximately 7.5mA per tube (based on the 33.3 / 26.7
dutycycle). If he uses one resistor per tube, the resistor would be
around 6.8k. The common node current through 2 tubes would then be
15mA (which averages to 12mA over the 33.3 / 26.7 duty cycle).

Since you're running with a 7.5k resistor already, going down to 6.8k
is not going to make a significant difference in tube brightness.

If 7.5mA currents per tube will kill the tube, I do not know.

This is still a good trick to measure your average power supply
current with a DMM:
Use a relatively large (and at least 200V) parallel capacitor, then a
series resistor (100R), then another relatively large parallel
capacitor and then you can measure the voltage across the series
resistor with a normal DMM, which should be 1.2V for 12mA.

Michel




On Mar 15, 2:57 am, Adam Jacobs  wrote:
> Why are you trying to achieve 8ma of current on IN-14's? Nominal supply
> current for that tube is 2.5ma, everything else is providing excessive
> current. Now, when multiplexing, lots of times we like to use excessive
> current to make the display brighter, but I wouldn't kill myself trying
> to achieve precisely 8ma - especially if it is a completely arbitrary
> number. In my multiplexed IN-14 designs, I use 180vdc supply and a 1x6
> mux. I never overdrive the tubes, I'm pretty happy with the brightness
> as is... and the tubes will last a great deal longer. Do as Mike says,
> run the experiments and see for yourself.
> Also, be careful about taking Michel's advice... Lots of the things he
> says seem very strange to me. Do you have a schematic for your design?
> If this is a 1x6 multiplex, then you are only lighting one tube at a
> time. (or 2x3 is two tubes at at time) I don't follow how he is arriving
> at 48ma of supply current. :S
>
> -Adam W7QI
>
> On 3/14/2012 2:10 AM, Imbanon wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > IN-14 strike at 170V, but when multiplexed this should be a bit
> > higher. That's why it's set to 200 volts. It then drops to 140V
> > according to the datasheet, but in reality, I measured 144. So if I
> > take 200-140 it's 60 volts across the anode resistor, giving the peak
> > of 8mA.
> > But to be honest, I am really confused with this. By my calculations,
> > with 26.7% duty cycle per tube, for current of 2mA, I should have a
> > peak of 3.864mA ( 2/sqrt(0.267) = 3.864).
> > So with my supply stable at 200V and anode resistors of 7.5K, I should
> > get the 8mA peak on one tube, or 16mA on two tubes, but I really
> > measure current of 6.4mA alltogether that goes from my supply. How is
> > this possible? Why should my supply give me 48mA when I need only
> > 6.5mA for two tubes at a time? By the way, I am using blanking period
> > of 200us, so maybe the current really settles by this time, so the
> > supply needs to give enough current for only 2 tubes.
> > Can someone clear this out to me?
>
> > And about that spider web.. it isn't really as messy as it looks in
> > the video. It's just a matter of viewing angle. And everything is
> > organised by cable color.
>
> > Thanks
>
> > On Mar 14, 1:24 am, Cobra007  wrote:
> >> Wow, I like that spider web you created there!
>
> >> How exactly did you estimate that a 7.5k resistor would result in a
> >> 8mA tube current? Honestly, I do not know the nominal voltage of the
> >> tube but I don't think it will be less than 150V. In that case, you
> >> have a maximum of 50V across your resistor which would only be 6.7mA.
> >> If you measure 5.5mA, the voltage across the resistor would be 41.25V
> >> so in that case, your resistor should have been between 4.7k and 5.2k
> >> to come to 8mA. My best guess is 4.7k. Try one tube and see if the
> >> value is then closer to 8mA for that tube. Also check that your 200V
> >> stays stable and can supply the required 48mA.
>
> >> Michel
>
> >> On Mar 14, 10:56 am, Imbanon  wrote:
>
> >>> Got my hands on some older Tektronix oscilloscope and a Fluke 199c. I
> >>> did quite a lot of measurements, even with the current probe. I
> >>> learned a lot about the tubes and their behaviour, but didn't really
> >>> solve my problem

[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

No, it is still not correct because the total power consumption
doesn't add up.

The 12mA DC current for the 200V supply is correct because you want
2mA for each tube.

This means when multiplexing, a pair of tubes must have a maximum peak
current of 12mA, not 6mA. That's where the problem is.

12mA @ 50V would be a 4k resistor.

The easiest thing to do measure the DC current that the 200V power
supply delivers, if that is 12mA you know that each tube has 2mA
average current.

Just use a (200V) parallel capacitor, then a series resistor (100R),
then another (200V) parallel capacitor and then you can measure the
voltage over the series resistor with a normal DMM, which should be
1.2V for 12mA.

You probably need a resistor between 3k3 and 4k.

Now it should be OK :-)

Michel




On Mar 14, 11:05 pm, Cobra007  wrote:
> I can smell a misunderstanding here (from my side, that is).
>
> What are you trying to achieve? I just read your previous posts, it
> seems like you're after 2mA average current per tube, so your power
> supply should be able to deliver 12mA in total.
>
> I assume the anodes from the 2 tubes go through 1 resistor to the 200V
> supply (2 anodes share 1 resistor).
>
> The peak current for 2 tubes should be 6mA * (33.3 / 26.7) = 7.5mA
>
> With 60V across the resistor, you would then need 8k resistors.
>
> However, it is probably a bit less, maybe more like 6.8k as the
> voltage is probably less than 60V.
>
> I really liked the spiderweb, that was not a joke, I think it looks
> good.
>
> Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

I can smell a misunderstanding here (from my side, that is).

What are you trying to achieve? I just read your previous posts, it
seems like you're after 2mA average current per tube, so your power
supply should be able to deliver 12mA in total.

I assume the anodes from the 2 tubes go through 1 resistor to the 200V
supply (2 anodes share 1 resistor).

The peak current for 2 tubes should be 6mA * (33.3 / 26.7) = 7.5mA

With 60V across the resistor, you would then need 8k resistors.

However, it is probably a bit less, maybe more like 6.8k as the
voltage is probably less than 60V.

I really liked the spiderweb, that was not a joke, I think it looks
good.

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

Wow, I like that spider web you created there!

How exactly did you estimate that a 7.5k resistor would result in a
8mA tube current? Honestly, I do not know the nominal voltage of the
tube but I don't think it will be less than 150V. In that case, you
have a maximum of 50V across your resistor which would only be 6.7mA.
If you measure 5.5mA, the voltage across the resistor would be 41.25V
so in that case, your resistor should have been between 4.7k and 5.2k
to come to 8mA. My best guess is 4.7k. Try one tube and see if the
value is then closer to 8mA for that tube. Also check that your 200V
stays stable and can supply the required 48mA.

Michel


On Mar 14, 10:56 am, Imbanon  wrote:
> Got my hands on some older Tektronix oscilloscope and a Fluke 199c. I
> did quite a lot of measurements, even with the current probe. I
> learned a lot about the tubes and their behaviour, but didn't really
> solve my problem.
> I ended up calculating my anode resistors (around 7.5k), that should
> give a peak of 8mA, but gives 5.5mA measured with a scope. You can see
> the result in the video below. The quality isn't at it's finest, but
> it's better than nothing!
> Check it out and tell me what you think.
> Also, the supply is set to 200V. It that too much?http://youtu.be/p7QNEL8s4l4
>
> Thanks everyone
>
> On Mar 6, 10:10 pm, "Frank Bemelman" 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > AC DMM’s always excluded the DC component, if I am not mistaken. For a
> > mainly
> > troubleshooting tool (citation needed), that is not a bad choice. After all,
> > many AC signals
> > found in circuits have a DC offset. Assuming sinewaves makes the design of
> > the meter
> > easier (cheaper).
>
> > I would not expect a different behaviour from a DMM that is TRUE RMS. Nice
> > to have
> > that AC/DC switch though, on the Tek meters. But I’m still a Fluke only guy
> > ;-)
>
> > Frank
>
> > From: Nick
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 4:03 PM
> > To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current
>
> > Yes, RMS has only one physical definition, but in the case of DMMs the
> > actual implementation is obfuscated.
>
> > "true" RMS in a DMM context is an RMS calculation that does not assume a
> > sine wave - most cheaper DMMs do indeed assume a sine wave input.
>
> > Then there are "true RMS" (and indeed "ordinary" RMS) DMMs that may or may
> > not include any DC component, or at least in the Tek case, give you the
> > choice.
>
> > Old meters indeed did use to measure the heat produced in a resistor - the
> > definition of the "RMS value" used was that of the DC voltage that would
> > give the equivalent heating effect to the signal under inspection.
>
> > Nick
>
> > On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 2:16:45 PM UTC, GastonP wrote: Actually there is
>
> > only a definition of RMS, not subject to
> > "trueness" :)
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square
>
> > AFAIK, the old instruments that gave a true-"true RMS" output measured
> > the heat generated by the signal when applied to a resistor. That way
> > the waveform shape did not affect the measurement, and they were able
> > to measure with the DC component included, something fake-"True RMS"
> > instruments can't do.
> > Many of the existing instruments assume sinusoidal signals and thus
> > are subject to gross errors.
>
> > Gaston
>
> > On Mar 5, 6:15 am, Nick  wrote:> On Monday, March 5, 2012 
> > 8:46:42 AM UTC, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > > > Yes, you're right Nick, the Fluke is indeed AC coupled. I didn't
> > > > expect that to be honest as it undermines the definition of "true RMS"
> > > > but a simple battery test shows 0V RMS :-).
>
> > > Its not a commonly known problem, even among professional EEs. One of my
> > > DMMs, a Tektronix DMM916, has the option to include/exclude any DC
> > > component as required. I've had "forthright" discussions with some over
> > > what theoretically constitutes true-RMS vs. what they expect/want in
> > > actuality.
>
> > > Nick
>
> > --
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> > visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msg/neonixie-l/-/cOKZXWW5GXwJ.
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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie brightness control

[Cobra007]

ok, I forgot to insert the link

http://youtu.be/2jsZ6eMOxjc



On Mar 12, 4:16 pm, Cobra007  wrote:
> Uploaded for David but didn't want to post in a non related thread.
>
> This is 1024 steps brightness control of a nixie tube through 2
> individual PWM channels. At low brightness it looks like it's missing
> something from the top of the zero but in reality it appears just
> fine.
>
> Michel

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[neonixie-l] Nixie brightness control

[Cobra007]

Uploaded for David but didn't want to post in a non related thread.

This is 1024 steps brightness control of a nixie tube through 2
individual PWM channels. At low brightness it looks like it's missing
something from the top of the zero but in reality it appears just
fine.

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Alternative to MPSA42 for direct drive clocks.

[Cobra007]

>
> I don't think that's a good idea. Nixie tubes look much better when
> driven by a low duty cycle with full current, rather than a high duty
> cycle with very low current. The cathode won't light fully at lower
> current, and the glow is more "fuzzy" and indistinct.
>
> Try it and see.
>

That is correct, there is indeed a minimum current that they will
still light up entirely and when that limit is reached, the
multiplexing PWM will reduce it's duty cycle below the mentioned 40%,
thanks for reminding me.


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[neonixie-l] Re: Alternative to MPSA42 for direct drive clocks.

[Cobra007]

Glad I could help Paul, it's good to hear somebody appreciates a
comment :-).

Michel



On Mar 12, 2:22 pm, Paul S  wrote:
> I mentioned 300V because that was the rating of the transistors.
> Cobra, the DMMT5551S would actually work very well for my IN12 driving
> application, and I also appreciate the bases being on one side, thanks
> for helping me discover this component!
> -Paul
>
> On Mar 11, 11:06 pm, David Forbes  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 3/11/12 4:44 PM, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > >> Then don't turn on the other tube at that time! I turn on only one tube
> > >> at a time, which removes that problem.
>
> > > That is not completely true, it's not that I turn on both tubes at the
> > > same time, it is because the current starts to flow through the wrong
> > > tube because IT CAN. With a 170V anode voltage and a 50V clamping
> > > zener, the minimum voltage on either of the tubes (on or off) is 120V.
> > > A tube that has 120V, is switched off but was switched on just a
> > > fraction earlier (due to multiplexing) will leak current from anode to
> > > ground through the zener clamping diode. You can't stop that unless
> > > you disconnect the anode from the HV power supply, through an extra
> > > transistor or something else.
>
> > > I agree that adding complexity will in most cases reduce the
> > > reliability. In my case, it is not so much that the circuit becomes
> > > more complex (replacing 8 transistors in 1 package by 8 discrete
> > > transistors) it is more an increase in PCB complexity. So I am not
> > > worried that it will decrease the reliability.
>
> > > Michel
>
> > I am confused. If you are turning off one tube then turning on the other
> > tube, and operating at a low duty cycle (I assume you're still
> > discussing the dimmed case), then there will be a long delay between
> > turning off the first tube and turning on the second tube. So the first
> > tube should have time to deionize. Is the leakage strong enough to make
> > a glow? For how long?
>
> > My Nixie watch displays an interesting result when one tube is broken -
> > the other tube will light all cathodes faintly when the broken tube is
> > selected. That's because all the cathodes are clamped to 50V, but the
> > power supply makes about 200V to an open circuit. (I connect both anodes
> > directly to HV without resistors.) In that case, the tube is lighting
> > when it shouldn't. But there is a broken tube, so there's no reason to
> > make the display function properly in that case.
>
> > I provide display blanking in my watch, which is accomplished by feeding
> > an MPU output to the HV supply feedback node through a carefully-chosen
> > resistor, which makes the HV drop to 110V when the bit is set to 1. This
> > allows me to turn off the display and not excite the case described
> > above in normal operation. It's a very low cost solution to blanking, as
> > I share the MPU pin with the accelerometer enable.
>
> > The long and short of it is that you ought to be able to use a 50V
> > driver chip in a two-tube design with a bit of effort.
>
> > --
> > David Forbes, Tucson AZ

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[neonixie-l] Re: Alternative to MPSA42 for direct drive clocks.

[Cobra007]

I think you can compare it very much to the result you see when one
tube is broken. If the second tube doesn't ionize, it is basically the
same as if it is not there. In your case, suppose you take out 1 tube,
you will most likely find that the anode voltage of the other tube
will not rise above 170V even though your power supply can go up to
200V. This is because the leakage currents from all the other cathodes
to ground through the zener diode, consume all the current that the HV
power supply can deliver. All voltages from anode to each cathode will
be around 120V, together with the 50V zener, you will find a 170V
anode voltage rather than 200V. Of course this depends on how much
current your HV power supply can deliver, but I assume it is not more
than 3mA otherwise the battery currents will be enormous. Suppose 3mA
over 10 cathodes, would be 300uA per cathode, enough to just light
them up.

My HV power supply is quite a bit different from your one, I vary the
supplied energy as well as the "on" time during multiplexing, they are
2 individual PWM signals. So there is not necessary a long delay
between switching left-tube and right-tube. In fact, the PWM signal
for multiplexing only varies between 40 and 50% I think.

Michel







On Mar 12, 2:06 pm, David Forbes  wrote:
> On 3/11/12 4:44 PM, Cobra007 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Then don't turn on the other tube at that time! I turn on only one tube
> >> at a time, which removes that problem.
>
> > That is not completely true, it's not that I turn on both tubes at the
> > same time, it is because the current starts to flow through the wrong
> > tube because IT CAN. With a 170V anode voltage and a 50V clamping
> > zener, the minimum voltage on either of the tubes (on or off) is 120V.
> > A tube that has 120V, is switched off but was switched on just a
> > fraction earlier (due to multiplexing) will leak current from anode to
> > ground through the zener clamping diode. You can't stop that unless
> > you disconnect the anode from the HV power supply, through an extra
> > transistor or something else.
>
> > I agree that adding complexity will in most cases reduce the
> > reliability. In my case, it is not so much that the circuit becomes
> > more complex (replacing 8 transistors in 1 package by 8 discrete
> > transistors) it is more an increase in PCB complexity. So I am not
> > worried that it will decrease the reliability.
>
> > Michel
>
> I am confused. If you are turning off one tube then turning on the other
> tube, and operating at a low duty cycle (I assume you're still
> discussing the dimmed case), then there will be a long delay between
> turning off the first tube and turning on the second tube. So the first
> tube should have time to deionize. Is the leakage strong enough to make
> a glow? For how long?
>
> My Nixie watch displays an interesting result when one tube is broken -
> the other tube will light all cathodes faintly when the broken tube is
> selected. That's because all the cathodes are clamped to 50V, but the
> power supply makes about 200V to an open circuit. (I connect both anodes
> directly to HV without resistors.) In that case, the tube is lighting
> when it shouldn't. But there is a broken tube, so there's no reason to
> make the display function properly in that case.
>
> I provide display blanking in my watch, which is accomplished by feeding
> an MPU output to the HV supply feedback node through a carefully-chosen
> resistor, which makes the HV drop to 110V when the bit is set to 1. This
> allows me to turn off the display and not excite the case described
> above in normal operation. It's a very low cost solution to blanking, as
> I share the MPU pin with the accelerometer enable.
>
> The long and short of it is that you ought to be able to use a 50V
> driver chip in a two-tube design with a bit of effort.
>
> --
> David Forbes, Tucson AZ

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[neonixie-l] Re: Alternative to MPSA42 for direct drive clocks.

[Cobra007]

>
> Then don't turn on the other tube at that time! I turn on only one tube
> at a time, which removes that problem.
>


That is not completely true, it's not that I turn on both tubes at the
same time, it is because the current starts to flow through the wrong
tube because IT CAN. With a 170V anode voltage and a 50V clamping
zener, the minimum voltage on either of the tubes (on or off) is 120V.
A tube that has 120V, is switched off but was switched on just a
fraction earlier (due to multiplexing) will leak current from anode to
ground through the zener clamping diode. You can't stop that unless
you disconnect the anode from the HV power supply, through an extra
transistor or something else.

I agree that adding complexity will in most cases reduce the
reliability. In my case, it is not so much that the circuit becomes
more complex (replacing 8 transistors in 1 package by 8 discrete
transistors) it is more an increase in PCB complexity. So I am not
worried that it will decrease the reliability.

Michel


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[neonixie-l] Re: Alternative to MPSA42 for direct drive clocks.

[Cobra007]

>
> A fine way to achieve the PWM dimming you want with a low-voltage Nixie
> driver is to have a current measurement device in the power supply's
> feedback path, which is conveniently provided from the common emitter
> terminal of the TD62083 (ULN2083).

I think this is what you have done in your nixie watch. It will
effectively increase the anode voltage until ionization has taken
place.

>
> You can detect when the tube begins to ionize by sensing the current
> using a comparator such as an LM339 working across a small resistor to
> make <1V drop from emitter to B-, and use this time to start the on-time
> countdown in the PWM dimming code. You then have to reduce the OFF time
> after that pulse by the measured ionization delay.

In this case I would need 2 comparators to distinguish through which
tube the current flows because the current will flow but it will flow
through the wrong tube. I can see my anode voltage rise to 170V but
the tube doesn't light up, as there if no reason the voltage rise
should stop at 170V, the only explanation is that the current starts
to flow through the wrong tube. I have measured that current can flow
through the nixie down to about 120V. Interestingly, 120V + 50V zener
is exactly the 170V that I measure at my anode voltage.

And then, after I have detected that the current flows through the
wrong tube, there is nothing I can do about it unless I add more
circuitry to be able to stop the current flowing through the wrong
tube.

>
> The advantage of this method is that it will produce a more uniform
> brightness in your dimmed display, since you are guaranteed that the
> ionization time is taken into account. Plus, you can use the small,
> low-cost driver chips.
>

If all these features are added, it will probably produce a more
uniform brightness, but I can see from the amount of PCB space that I
have left over that it is not going to fit :-).

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Alternative to MPSA42 for direct drive clocks.

[Cobra007]

Fair enough.

I did measure that I-V curve long before I started drafting the
circuit as I had to figure out how long it took before ionization
would start and how much dimming I could get out of these tubes. For
my concept watch I used ULN2803 drivers which work perfectly fine in
most cases, but not in low light situations. As I only drive them with
very low energy in low light, there is usually 1 tube that won't light
up for a very long time (could be a couple of seconds). For the tube
that doesn't light up I need a higher voltage, which I can't get to
with the ULN drivers as the current starts to flow through the tube
that was already on (because of the zener clamping diode).

I didn't choose for the DMMT (Vceo is 160V btw, not 180V as stated
before) dual NPN because I would have end up with more components than
the single mosfets, it was also easier to implement basic circuit
protection with the fets rather than NPN transistors (one of the
reasons is that Vebo << Vgs max).

I may not be from the nixie era but that doesn't mean I do not
understand how they work. Once you know the basic characteristics of
the tube, driving them becomes easy, I mean this is not rocket
science, right?

Michel




On Mar 12, 6:27 am, threeneurons  wrote:
> Even though 300V was mentioned, I believe the actual intent was driving
> nixies. Only,the original poster can say for sure.
>
> I'm not questioning your competence, in electronics, in general, but with
> nixies specifically. I'd be a lot more diplomatic with a neophyte. Yes, you
> can design your circuits in a gazillion different ways, but you contradict
> yourself. Your initially stated intent was to get the smallest (physically)
> circuit possible, but now you want to add complexity. Complexity that may
> not add reliability.
>
> Let's get back to my nixie timing picture. I refer to that because, that's
> data that I've never seen before. I can't find that data anywhere. I had to
> run that experiment myself, and share it with the group. Before that,
> people were discussing all kinds of nixie misinformation about nixie
> "turn-ON". The only way to find out the truth, was to run an experiment.
> This is what I want you to do. Don't believe us. I mean that sincerely.
> Build test circuits first. Then only use the circuit that suits your needs
> the best.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:07:24 AM UTC-8, Cobra007 wrote:
>
> > Yes, of course 180V would have been enough for my circuit, but Paul
> > was after high voltage drivers (he mentioned 300V) and I wasn't sure
> > if 180V would be enough in his situation.
>
> > > We can discuss this all day long, but it seems to be "trying to teach a
> > pig
> > > to sing".
>
> > I don't really see the need to make this remark, it is neither useful
> > nor funny. It seems like you think this is the first time I solder 2
> > wires together.
>
> > There is 1000 ways to design a circuit and there is my way to design a
> > circuit and I happen to choose my way no matter what other people
> > think of it. Maybe it ends up being a bit over complicated but that is
> > totally fine with me.
>
> > Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Alternative to MPSA42 for direct drive clocks.

[Cobra007]

Yes, of course 180V would have been enough for my circuit, but Paul
was after high voltage drivers (he mentioned 300V) and I wasn't sure
if 180V would be enough in his situation.

>
> We can discuss this all day long, but it seems to be "trying to teach a pig
> to sing".
>

I don't really see the need to make this remark, it is neither useful
nor funny. It seems like you think this is the first time I solder 2
wires together.

There is 1000 ways to design a circuit and there is my way to design a
circuit and I happen to choose my way no matter what other people
think of it. Maybe it ends up being a bit over complicated but that is
totally fine with me.

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Alternative to MPSA42 for direct drive clocks.

[Cobra007]

>
> On the production Nixie Ramos clocks I intend to use 
> these:http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/PMBTA42DS.pdfThey are dual
> NPN 300v transistors that are really cheap. The downside is that there
> are only 2 transistors per chip, so that's 5 per digit, so they are
> going to significantly increase your part count on your board. But
> they seem ultra-reliable, and at the cost I think they justify the
> added part count.
>
> -Paul
>


I had been looking at those PMBTA42DS dual NPN transistors for my
nixie watch but found that the layout of the 2 transistors is not very
convenient to cramp them onto a very small PCB. I prefer to have both
collectors at one side of the chip and both bases at the other side.
This is the case with the DMMT5551S. Only downside is that they are
180V models, so they are probably barely sufficient for your clock. I
know there's been a lot going around that 50V would be enough etc etc,
but if you really want the maximum performance of your clock/watch
including PWM, blanking etc etc it is still better to go for high
voltage drivers. I ended up using the BSS131 mosfets which are nearly
impossible to cramp onto a tiny board, but they still fit and it also
saved me a base resistor.

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: Yet another scope clock

[Cobra007]

Nice clock Grahame! I like the barcode time as well, did you actually
check if a CCD barcode reader can decode it?

At first I was wondering why you use such large capacitors (100uF/
100V) for the voltage multipliers but then I saw you use the mains
frequency as input source, so that makes sense.

Some form of a brass bezel around the tube would be a nice finish I
think.

Michel


On Mar 8, 4:20 am, Grahame Marsh  wrote:
> http://www.sgitheach.org.uk/scope1.html
>
> Enjoy
>
> Grahame

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[neonixie-l] Re: New top price for B7971's?

[Cobra007]

That is indeed a great clock Jeff! Looks like you're selling them way
below market price!

Michel


> Yeah!  I'd let you call me anything you want if you paid me that much for a
> pair of B7971's :)))
>
> And I'm selling the GPS FLW's complete with enclosure, four tested and
> guaranteed B7971 tubes, GPS receiver, and PS for 
> less...http://www.amug.org/~jthomas/gpsflw.html
>
> Regards, Jeff

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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

Yes, you're right Nick, the Fluke is indeed AC coupled. I didn't
expect that to be honest as it undermines the definition of "true RMS"
but a simple battery test shows 0V RMS :-).

Michel





On Mar 5, 6:08 pm, Nick  wrote:
> Digital MMs sample and require a periodic waveform to give accurate results
> - even so-called "true RMS" DMMs do this. The whole business of what
> constitutes a "true RMS" reading is beyond the scope of this note - e.g.
> how is any super-imposed DC level incorporated in the calculation - most
> so-called true-RMS DMMs are AC coupled for the purposes of RMS
> calculations, i.e. they ignore any underlying DC offset.
>
> Anyway, as the pulses are essentially square waves, the average current
> (M:S ratio x peak) is a good first approximation to the RMS value.
>
> As the tubes are multiplexed, the current waveform will confuse any DMM - I
> suspect even good Flukes and Tektronix ones will have the same problem.
>
> What you need is an analogue MM, like an old AVO or something with a needle
> - the analogue movement smooths and averages the pulses - set it on a volts
> range and measure the drop over the anode resistor - then measure the anode
> resistor accurately using your DMM, and calculate the average current that
> way (if the analogue meter you are using isn't a valve or FET-input type,
> don't forget to compensate for the input resistance in parallel with the
> anode resistor - it'll be something like 20,000 ohms/volt). Otherwise you
> will need a 'scope to measure the voltage pulses and do the calculations
> from those.
>
> Lot to be said for analogue MMs...
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, March 4, 2012 10:26:23 PM UTC, Imbanon wrote:
>
> > Hi all!
>
> > I have a question about multiplexed nixies (2x3 - 2 turned on at a
> > time).
> > First of all.. I cannot get a 2mA (or at least I think so) on my
> > IN-14s. It lead me to completely remove the anode resistor! Can a
> > nixie tube be harmed if it does not have an anode resistor? Without
> > any resistors, I can get up to 1.8mA measured with my multimeter in DC
> > mode.
>
> > So I figured to try to calculate it. I think that the multimeter in DC
> > mode shows average readings (that's true, right?). So with the formula
> > that the average current equals Vpp*T1/T, in which T1=4ma, T=13.6 and
> > Iavg=1.8mA, Vpp equals 6.12mA.
> > Is that really possible? I would say that the current would be much
> > higher. My 555 supply is capable to deliver at least 15mA at 200V
> > (tested).
> > So with Vpp I calculated that by the RMS formula Irms=Vpp*sqrt(T1/T),
> > RMS current is 3.32mA, which is impossible by my judgement of
> > brightness.
>
> > I will hopefully get my hands on a scope this week to check out the
> > real peak current. But is there anything I can do before, or even if I
> > get a chance to use a scope?
>
> > Many thanks!

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[neonixie-l] Re: Calculating multiplexed nixie's RMS current

[Cobra007]

If you direct drive them @ 12mA and you want to have them the same
brightness when multiplexed, you will need to increase the current to
36mA (as they are only on for 1/3 of the time). Which means 12mA for 2
tubes at all times, 6mA per tube @ 33% duty = 2mA average current per
tube.

Adam is right, you cannot measure that accurately with a DC
multimeter. I even tried with a Fluke true RMS multimeter and that
gives rubbish readings as well.

Michel





On Mar 5, 9:36 am, Imbanon  wrote:
> I direct drived all 6 of them, delivering 12mA without a problem.
> Tested only up to 15mA. Didn't want to go further..
>
> Thanks again
>
> On Mar 4, 11:29 pm, Adam Jacobs  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Disable the multiplexing, so that only 2 nixies are lit (and those lit
> > at 100% duty cycle). THEN measure the current draw. You will not be able
> > to accurately measure the peak current draw of a multiplexed nixie with
> > a multimeter. . and YES, you definitely need a current limiting resistor
> > or you will break your nixies.
>
> > -Adam
>
> > On 3/4/2012 2:26 PM, Imbanon wrote:
>
> > > Hi all!
>
> > > I have a question about multiplexed nixies (2x3 - 2 turned on at a
> > > time).
> > > First of all.. I cannot get a 2mA (or at least I think so) on my
> > > IN-14s. It lead me to completely remove the anode resistor! Can a
> > > nixie tube be harmed if it does not have an anode resistor? Without
> > > any resistors, I can get up to 1.8mA measured with my multimeter in DC
> > > mode.
>
> > > So I figured to try to calculate it. I think that the multimeter in DC
> > > mode shows average readings (that's true, right?). So with the formula
> > > that the average current equals Vpp*T1/T, in which T1=4ma, T=13.6 and
> > > Iavg=1.8mA, Vpp equals 6.12mA.
> > > Is that really possible? I would say that the current would be much
> > > higher. My 555 supply is capable to deliver at least 15mA at 200V
> > > (tested).
> > > So with Vpp I calculated that by the RMS formula Irms=Vpp*sqrt(T1/T),
> > > RMS current is 3.32mA, which is impossible by my judgement of
> > > brightness.
>
> > > I will hopefully get my hands on a scope this week to check out the
> > > real peak current. But is there anything I can do before, or even if I
> > > get a chance to use a scope?
>
> > > Many thanks!

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[neonixie-l] Re: Anode drivers for panaplex displays

[Cobra007]

That is a cool clock, the display looks so bright! I was wondering, as
you have 7 digits, if you can set the clock to display the tenths of
seconds as well (like the Heathkit GC-1000)?

Michel



On Mar 4, 6:47 am, "kosbo.com"  wrote:
> Hi All,
> As  you might remember, I  was looking for anode drives solution for
> panaplex display  and thanks to Martin, he advised to look at PinBall
> displays, so now  I have a very few Pinball Display Clocks available
> for sale. ;-)
> If anybody interested, please have a look at my web site front page 
> atwww.kosbo.com, where you  can find anoncement about it.
>
> Pinball display circuit diagram does not help me a lot, as they used
> just transistor switched, which I do not really want to use on my
> other panaplex clock project based on Russian IGP-17 16 digits display
> panels, but I realy love Pinball display Clock and already have one in
> my collection...
>
> All the best, Konstantinwww.kosbo.com
>
> On 8 Jan, 23:13, Dekatron42  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Try to look for Pinball machine schematics as they often usePanaplex
> > displays there.
> > There are quite a few display units sold on eBay which you might buy
> > to do some reverse-engineering on if you can't find a schematic for
> > them.
>
> > /Martin

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[neonixie-l] Re: B7971's

[Cobra007]

Wow, yes that will hurt a bit
The other ones were NOS if I am not mistaken, but I think these ones
are used. He said they are not soldered but that is probably because
they sit in a socket :-).

Michel



On Mar 2, 11:48 am, Nicholas Stock  wrote:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/260964813563?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid...
>
> Ouch.
>
> I pity the person who bought 2 of them for 600 bucks not that long
> agosome people don't seem to do their research on eBay...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nick

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[neonixie-l] Re: OT - Raspberry Pi released

[Cobra007]

Bob,

Thanks for the details.

>
> Someone asked can Linux reliably capture 1ms events ? Answer: Yes,
> but; You would have to write a kernel module to reliably collect the
> data at that rate. You could get finer granularity, but you'd need to
> muck with the scheduler. Not bunny hill stuff.
>

Does this mean the application can only access the data collected in
real time by the Kernel module, but cannot (or is not guaranteed to)
process the data in real time? It does not support something like
capturing a timer int and redirecting it to an application routine? I
never worked with Linux so I actually saw this as an opportunity to
get started. Normally I use DOS with GO32, capturing a timer int that
can be used in a real time application is very easy in DOS.

Michel

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[neonixie-l] Re: OT - Raspberry Pi released

[Cobra007]

And a second question, does anyone know if this board can be used for
real-time applications? Say something like capturing a 1ms timer
interrupt that is guaranteed never to skip one int call?

Michel



On Mar 1, 8:51 am, Cobra007  wrote:
> My question for something that has just been released would be what
> language is the main stream programmers going to use to program these
> computers? Is it indeed Python, or will it be a C based language. It
> is aimed for teenagers, but that's not where it will end.
>
> Michel
>
> On Mar 1, 5:25 am, Grahame Marsh  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > More info here from Aunty Beeb
>
> >www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17196115
>
> > On 29/02/2012 13:46, Dylan Distasio wrote:
>
> > > I stayed up until 1:30AM ET (6AM GMT) in the US trying in vain to get
> > > one.  I registered interest on the RS site but am not holding my
> > > breath on this batch.  I was hoping they would have done a little more
> > > infrastructure work to decrease the odds of meltdowns on the sites.
> > > That said, I'll be able to get one eventually and am very excited to
> > > try it out.  I am however exhausted this morning here in the US!
> > > Please let us know what you think once you get yours!
> > > Best,
> > > Dylan
>
> > > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 7:58 AM, Quixotic Nixotic
> > > mailto:nixci...@jsdesign.co.uk>> wrote:
>
> > >     So who managed to get a Raspberry Pi today? Those that
> > >     pre-registered were emailed and told to look at the website at 6am
> > >     this morning.
>
> > >     Armed with tea I refreshed both myself and my browser until the
> > >     site kicked in on the dot of 6 and was told to order from Premier
> > >     Farnell or RS. Mad rush to Farnell, logged in with my account
> > >     details and bang, the site melted. Decided to try a phone order.
> > >     Phone sales kicked in at 8am. Managed to talk to someone at 8.08am
> > >     and in theory I have got one. I was told none are actually
> > >     shipping until after March 12th. They only arrived in the UK on
> > >     Monday and they'd need to test them.
>
> > >     It's great that they have a done a deal with major distributors to
> > >     manufacture and supply - they can match the huge demand and
> > >     manufacture accordingly. Shame it cannot be made in the UK.
>
> > >     Awesome little device. Hopefully it will change the world.
>
> > >     John S
>
> > >     --
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[neonixie-l] Re: OT - Raspberry Pi released

[Cobra007]

My question for something that has just been released would be what
language is the main stream programmers going to use to program these
computers? Is it indeed Python, or will it be a C based language. It
is aimed for teenagers, but that's not where it will end.

Michel




On Mar 1, 5:25 am, Grahame Marsh  wrote:
> More info here from Aunty Beeb
>
> www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17196115
>
> On 29/02/2012 13:46, Dylan Distasio wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I stayed up until 1:30AM ET (6AM GMT) in the US trying in vain to get
> > one.  I registered interest on the RS site but am not holding my
> > breath on this batch.  I was hoping they would have done a little more
> > infrastructure work to decrease the odds of meltdowns on the sites.
> > That said, I'll be able to get one eventually and am very excited to
> > try it out.  I am however exhausted this morning here in the US!
> > Please let us know what you think once you get yours!
> > Best,
> > Dylan
>
> > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 7:58 AM, Quixotic Nixotic
> > mailto:nixci...@jsdesign.co.uk>> wrote:
>
> >     So who managed to get a Raspberry Pi today? Those that
> >     pre-registered were emailed and told to look at the website at 6am
> >     this morning.
>
> >     Armed with tea I refreshed both myself and my browser until the
> >     site kicked in on the dot of 6 and was told to order from Premier
> >     Farnell or RS. Mad rush to Farnell, logged in with my account
> >     details and bang, the site melted. Decided to try a phone order.
> >     Phone sales kicked in at 8am. Managed to talk to someone at 8.08am
> >     and in theory I have got one. I was told none are actually
> >     shipping until after March 12th. They only arrived in the UK on
> >     Monday and they'd need to test them.
>
> >     It's great that they have a done a deal with major distributors to
> >     manufacture and supply - they can match the huge demand and
> >     manufacture accordingly. Shame it cannot be made in the UK.
>
> >     Awesome little device. Hopefully it will change the world.
>
> >     John S
>
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[neonixie-l] Re: b7971 are getting really expensive :(

[Cobra007]

I suppose everyone has seen this website already, but I post it here
just in case you haven't.

http://eeberfest.net/tubetoys.php

Apparently not a very cheap project to start these days :-)
Michel


On Feb 17, 6:37 am, marcin  wrote:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/290668961727$137.5 a piece for two untested
> tubes... And they are different from each other. My gods.

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