Re: [newbie] Intel |Unveils
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:24:28 -0500 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday September 9 2003 02:56 pm, ed tharp wrote: Well, I see Charlie already gave you a best answer. The only thing I'd add, is there's no sense in havin a 64bit desktop, till most all the apps you use are ported to 64bit. Same deal as dual processors (SMP). I might take a bit of this last one up with you Tom, that be there Winblows thinking... about SMP anyway. I promise there is a marked difference between an SMP machine doing anything in MDK-Linux, and the same machine with out 2 cpus. in Winblows, including W2kp, and XP, if they ain't special SMP aware apps, there ain't no value, but in MDK, everything (when really loading up the box) is faster SMP. the visual difference is roughly the same as going from 128 meg ram to 256 meg ram, as UP vs SMP OK, we've got an argument Ed! ;) I talk to people all the time (Winblows users), they use their computers (if you can call ready made laptops computers) to email, use as typewriter, or surf the web. And they think they need broadband an faster computers. Most of 'em hunt'n peck like I do on a keyboard, an consult with their mouse. When they ask me for advice, I tell'm I don't do Windoze, an I don't do laptops. Not one believes that M$ is their biggest problem. I don't push the issue. Not even after they say I think my computer has a virus. I just offer free Mandrake CD's and support as my only solution. But I digress ... Twin 1 Ghz processors does not a 2 GHz system make. It's still a 1GHz system. Same speed, just more lanes on the highway. If they're open to traffic (software). Anything above 600 Mhz, single processor is good for compiling kernels, specially 'make modules'. That's about it. BTW, with the lastest kernels a few weeks ago, my 1.4 Athlon, oc'd to 1.5Ghz, plain old sdram, would take a stock Mdk config an 'make modules' in 40+ minutes. Now with an XP 3000+ oc'd to 2.3Ghz, DDR 400 sdram @ DDR 427, it doesn't even take 20 minutes. If it was dual cpu, it'd most likely still take close to 20 minutes. It surely wouldn't get done in 10. BFD anyhow, everything else is hardly at all noticeably quicker. My typin is slower I think. An what makes you think addin ram makes a system faster? If the ram amount was adequate to the task to begin with, addin more just means it might be able to do more at the same speed without VM (/swap). 'Cept for Windoze, then the system gets slower ; Or in all truth, a Linux industrial strength multi processor server is slower too with a bunch of ram, if it's used close to capacity. SMP has little merit on the desktop. For loaded down servers, a dual processor system surely wouldn't even cut it. Then bunches are called for. Just not on a desktop, ever. So it's not about how fast, it's more a situation of how much. Sure multiple proccesors can do more in a given length of time, given lots'a ram... but for a desktop, No. Desktop: UP, run it hard an put it up wet. Overclocking will produce much more than SMP. They only use one motor on winning race cars. The multi motor cars are called 'crowd pleasers', but they're not fast, just showy. Reminds me of the little aluminium 4litre toyota V8 that was being shoved against a tank transfer box and way supercharged. 2000 horse power into 4WD. I read about this combo more than once. Please note folks, these were demonstration hot-rods and not really fit for the road. -- Michael Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Intel |Unveils
I might take a bit of this last one up with you Tom, that be there Winblows thinking... about SMP anyway. I promise there is a marked difference between an SMP machine doing anything in MDK-Linux, and the same machine with out 2 cpus. in Winblows, including W2kp, and XP, if they ain't special SMP aware apps, there ain't no value, but in MDK, everything (when really loading up the box) is faster SMP. the visual difference is roughly the same as going from 128 meg ram to 256 meg ram, as UP vs SMP Sorry, jumping in on this thread late. The above is just routine anti-Microsoft chestbeating. I use both Win2k/XP and Linux, like to think of myself as platform-neutral. Both have strengths and weaknesses. The assertion that Win2k/XP do not take advantage of a second CPU except for rare SMP-specific applications is just plain false. The scheduler in 2k/XP is actually pretty good about exploiting the 2nd CPU even for things as simple as the console. I got my first dual CPU board on a whim when I fried my motherboard, and I'll never go back to a single CPU system - and I run no apps that were specifically written for SMP. Even on my lowly dual 233MMX (waiting for the workstation Opteron boards), Win2k is very responsive about bringing new apps to the foreground. That's what SMP brings to a general desktop - responsiveness. Even if you have some long running process you just started, clicking on some other window will produce immediate action. On a single CPU, such a context switch might take a second or two. -- Guy Rouillier Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Intel |Unveils
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:24:28 -0500, Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Twin 1 Ghz processors does not a 2 GHz system make. It's still a 1GHz system. Same speed, just more lanes on the highway. If they're open to traffic (software). Anything above 600 Mhz, single processor is good for compiling kernels, specially 'make modules'. That's about it. BTW, with the lastest kernels a few weeks ago, my 1.4 Athlon, oc'd to 1.5Ghz, plain old sdram, would take a stock Mdk config an 'make modules' in 40+ minutes. Now with an XP 3000+ oc'd to 2.3Ghz, DDR 400 sdram @ DDR 427, it doesn't even take 20 minutes. If it was dual cpu, it'd most likely still take close to 20 minutes. It surely wouldn't get done in 10. I've seen people with SMP desktops boast about how one processor could be applying a filter in the GIMP, while the other is getting email, or something. They say the system is more responsive under load. Doesn't make it true, of course (and I think kernel 2.6 will give a _much_ more responsive desktop anyway, something about breaking uninterruptible tasks up into smaller ones). Richard -- Get up and turn I loose Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Intel |Unveils
On Tuesday September 9 2003 04:14 am, John Richard Smith wrote: So once again AMD are ahead of the game.So does anyone know of a Mobo, and which AMD processor is currently the right choice for testing , 64 bit architecture. Why will it be some while before it's mainstream PC ? I mean, if it works, it works for whatever software ? or are you saying the technical aspects of PC's means it will not be compatible until someone does the necessary ? I might have a think about trying it. Just where does one obtain the 64 bit M9.2 version anyway, cooker I suppose, but what would it be called ? John Well, I see Charlie already gave you a best answer. The only thing I'd add, is there's no sense in havin a 64bit desktop, till most all the apps you use are ported to 64bit. Same deal as dual processors (SMP). Then expect some of them to run slower due to the overhead of addressing at twice the amount. I'll just stick to what I said originally, it's gonna be quite a while before 64 bit hits the desktop. And 64bit versions of most all distros have been available for quite some time for servers. As to Mandrake, http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/press/briefs?n=/mandrakesoft/news/2414 -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Intel |Unveils
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 14:20, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Tuesday September 9 2003 04:14 am, John Richard Smith wrote: So once again AMD are ahead of the game.So does anyone know of a Mobo, and which AMD processor is currently the right choice for testing , 64 bit architecture. Why will it be some while before it's mainstream PC ? I mean, if it works, it works for whatever software ? or are you saying the technical aspects of PC's means it will not be compatible until someone does the necessary ? I might have a think about trying it. Just where does one obtain the 64 bit M9.2 version anyway, cooker I suppose, but what would it be called ? John Well, I see Charlie already gave you a best answer. The only thing I'd add, is there's no sense in havin a 64bit desktop, till most all the apps you use are ported to 64bit. Same deal as dual processors (SMP). I might take a bit of this last one up with you Tom, that be there Winblows thinking... about SMP anyway. I promise there is a marked difference between an SMP machine doing anything in MDK-Linux, and the same machine with out 2 cpus. in Winblows, including W2kp, and XP, if they ain't special SMP aware apps, there ain't no value, but in MDK, everything (when really loading up the box) is faster SMP. the visual difference is roughly the same as going from 128 meg ram to 256 meg ram, as UP vs SMP Then expect some of them to run slower due to the overhead of addressing at twice the amount. I'll just stick to what I said originally, it's gonna be quite a while before 64 bit hits the desktop. And 64bit versions of most all distros have been available for quite some time for servers. the DEC alpha has been a 64 bit chip around for some long time now As to Mandrake, http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/press/briefs?n=/mandrakesoft/news/2414 -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Intel |Unveils
On Tuesday September 9 2003 02:56 pm, ed tharp wrote: Well, I see Charlie already gave you a best answer. The only thing I'd add, is there's no sense in havin a 64bit desktop, till most all the apps you use are ported to 64bit. Same deal as dual processors (SMP). I might take a bit of this last one up with you Tom, that be there Winblows thinking... about SMP anyway. I promise there is a marked difference between an SMP machine doing anything in MDK-Linux, and the same machine with out 2 cpus. in Winblows, including W2kp, and XP, if they ain't special SMP aware apps, there ain't no value, but in MDK, everything (when really loading up the box) is faster SMP. the visual difference is roughly the same as going from 128 meg ram to 256 meg ram, as UP vs SMP OK, we've got an argument Ed! ;) I talk to people all the time (Winblows users), they use their computers (if you can call ready made laptops computers) to email, use as typewriter, or surf the web. And they think they need broadband an faster computers. Most of 'em hunt'n peck like I do on a keyboard, an consult with their mouse. When they ask me for advice, I tell'm I don't do Windoze, an I don't do laptops. Not one believes that M$ is their biggest problem. I don't push the issue. Not even after they say I think my computer has a virus. I just offer free Mandrake CD's and support as my only solution. But I digress ... Twin 1 Ghz processors does not a 2 GHz system make. It's still a 1GHz system. Same speed, just more lanes on the highway. If they're open to traffic (software). Anything above 600 Mhz, single processor is good for compiling kernels, specially 'make modules'. That's about it. BTW, with the lastest kernels a few weeks ago, my 1.4 Athlon, oc'd to 1.5Ghz, plain old sdram, would take a stock Mdk config an 'make modules' in 40+ minutes. Now with an XP 3000+ oc'd to 2.3Ghz, DDR 400 sdram @ DDR 427, it doesn't even take 20 minutes. If it was dual cpu, it'd most likely still take close to 20 minutes. It surely wouldn't get done in 10. BFD anyhow, everything else is hardly at all noticeably quicker. My typin is slower I think. An what makes you think addin ram makes a system faster? If the ram amount was adequate to the task to begin with, addin more just means it might be able to do more at the same speed without VM (/swap). 'Cept for Windoze, then the system gets slower ; Or in all truth, a Linux industrial strength multi processor server is slower too with a bunch of ram, if it's used close to capacity. SMP has little merit on the desktop. For loaded down servers, a dual processor system surely wouldn't even cut it. Then bunches are called for. Just not on a desktop, ever. So it's not about how fast, it's more a situation of how much. Sure multiple proccesors can do more in a given length of time, given lots'a ram... but for a desktop, No. Desktop: UP, run it hard an put it up wet. Overclocking will produce much more than SMP. They only use one motor on winning race cars. The multi motor cars are called 'crowd pleasers', but they're not fast, just showy. -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Intel |Unveils
On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 20:10, John Richard Smith wrote: Intel Unveils low-cost Itanium 2 , 64 bit microprocessor == Is linux/Mandrake into 64 bit architecture , do you know ? , and if so which chips are currently best supported ? John I really don't understand all of this crap. I like the KISS principle; KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID Why bother with 64 bits of anything if a good, hearty 8 will do? It's all marketing. All this 64bit stuff and all. Too much bother. Sounds like something JoeHill would dream up; Hey! I smoked something like really honkers and I figured out how to play solitare with 512k encryption running on a rendering farm of 1024 Itanium based PC's with 1gb of RAM per each CPU - it's like, really cool man...Freecell flies... Bah, humbug. I'd even settle for 4-bit... stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- Never trust an operating system. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Intel |Unveils
Mandrake has released a 64 bit version but it is optimised for the AMD 64. (AMD 64 will run 32 and 64 bit software). Tony. -Original Message- From: Stephen Kuhn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 10:55 AM To: NEWBIE 1 Subject: Re: [newbie] Intel |Unveils On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 20:10, John Richard Smith wrote: Intel Unveils low-cost Itanium 2 , 64 bit microprocessor == Is linux/Mandrake into 64 bit architecture , do you know ? , and if so which chips are currently best supported ? John I really don't understand all of this crap. I like the KISS principle; KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID Why bother with 64 bits of anything if a good, hearty 8 will do? It's all marketing. All this 64bit stuff and all. Too much bother. Sounds like something JoeHill would dream up; Hey! I smoked something like really honkers and I figured out how to play solitare with 512k encryption running on a rendering farm of 1024 Itanium based PC's with 1gb of RAM per each CPU - it's like, really cool man...Freecell flies... Bah, humbug. I'd even settle for 4-bit... stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- Never trust an operating system. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Business Computer Projects - Disclaimer -+-+-+-+-+-+-+- This message, and any associated attachment is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify either Tony S. Sykes or the postmaster mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not necessarily the views of Business Computer Projects Ltd., unless specifically stated. Whilst every effort has been made to ensure that emails and their attachments are virus free, it is the responsibility of the recipient(s) to verify the integrity of such emails. Business Computer Projects Ltd BCP House 151 Charles Street Stockport Cheshire SK1 3JY Tel: +44 (0)161 355-3000 Fax: +44 (0)161 355-3001 Web: http://www.bcpsoftware.com http://www.bcpsoftware.com/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Intel |Unveils
Stephen Kuhn wrote: On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 20:10, John Richard Smith wrote: Intel Unveils low-cost Itanium 2 , 64 bit microprocessor == Is linux/Mandrake into 64 bit architecture , do you know ? , and if so which chips are currently best supported ? John I really don't understand all of this crap. I like the KISS principle; KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID Why bother with 64 bits of anything if a good, hearty 8 will do? It's all marketing. All this 64bit stuff and all. Too much bother. Sounds like something JoeHill would dream up; Hey! I smoked something like really honkers and I figured out how to play solitare with 512k encryption running on a rendering farm of 1024 Itanium based PC's with 1gb of RAM per each CPU - it's like, really cool man...Freecell flies... Bah, humbug. I'd even settle for 4-bit... stephen kuhn - owner I take it then your very fond of 64 bit architecture. But is Linux into it ? John -- John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Intel |Unveils
John Richard Smith wrote: Stephen Kuhn wrote: On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 20:10, John Richard Smith wrote: Intel Unveils low-cost Itanium 2 , 64 bit microprocessor == Is linux/Mandrake into 64 bit architecture , do you know ? , and if so which chips are currently best supported ? John I really don't understand all of this crap. I like the KISS principle; KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID Why bother with 64 bits of anything if a good, hearty 8 will do? It's all marketing. All this 64bit stuff and all. Too much bother. Sounds like something JoeHill would dream up; Hey! I smoked something like really honkers and I figured out how to play solitare with 512k encryption running on a rendering farm of 1024 Itanium based PC's with 1gb of RAM per each CPU - it's like, really cool man...Freecell flies... Bah, humbug. I'd even settle for 4-bit... stephen kuhn - owner I take it then your very fond of 64 bit architecture. But is Linux into it ? John Yes. Most big ass systems are 64 bit. That way they can get a larger memory space (an other benefits) for specialized apps with needs. I don't think you'll be seeing too many 64bit DNS servers but you will/do see them in the scientific community. They're also popular in the DB world. -- David Filion Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
