Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 23:09, HaywireMac wrote: So we will be seeing more Linux viruses as the OS becomes more common and popular. What truly boggles my mind is that so many people do not have an idea of the basis of the operating system from the onset. First and foremost, linux/unix/minix/posix/xenix are completely different animals from the MS-DOS/Windows/NT set of operating systems. PC based OS's. That stands for Personal Computer. PC. Single operator. Single. One. All of what M$ has done has been fake multitasking from the beginning. When we had to use Desqview under MSDOS - it was a matter of time slicing to give the appearance of multitasking - but was never really true multitasking. At least IBM had the right idea with the OS/2 model, but of course, marketing won out. Windows - no matter what version - no matter what flavour - does not truly multi-task - it cannot by inherent design. I CAN give you the IMPRESSION it's multitasking - but that's yet another reason why it requires so much hardware/RAM - to continue giving the appearance. Linux/unix/minix/posix/xenix - the idea behind was to create multiple tasks running concurrently from the beginning. Both born of different ideas and different worlds. Both have built in problems. At least in the linux/unix/posix/minix/xenix world they've had a lot longer to work out the bugs and holes - and the current bugs and holes BY NATURE cannot really allow for the same type of attacks that happen on a regular basis to Microsoft operating systems. Put bluntly, Microsoft is a wooden house. *NIX is a concrete bunker. Sure, they can both catch fire, but if you smoke inside the Microsoft house, you're bound to catch it alight. However, if you strew about large amounts of highly flammable liquid inside the concrete bunker and then set it alight from inside it's already locked and sealed doors, you'll cause it to burn with such high temperatures and the likes... ...erm...maybe that wasn't a great analogy, but y'all get the idea... stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- Human cardiac catheterization was introduced by Werner Forssman in 1929. Ignoring his department chief, and tying his assistant to an operating table to prevent her interference, he placed a ureteral catheter into a vein in his arm, advanced it to the right atrium [of his heart], and walked upstairs to the x-ray department where he took the confirmatory x-ray film. In 1956, Dr. Forssman was awarded the Nobel Prize. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 20:41:41 +1000 Stephen Kuhn [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Linux/unix/minix/posix/xenix - the idea behind was to create multiple tasks running concurrently from the beginning. I thought SCO invented that... ;-) -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Life is the living you do, Death is the living you don't do. -- Joseph Pintauro Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
HaywireMac wrote: On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 20:41:41 +1000 Stephen Kuhn [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Linux/unix/minix/posix/xenix - the idea behind was to create multiple tasks running concurrently from the beginning. I thought SCO invented that... ;-) I thought multi-tasking was invented by some cavewoman who had to hold a baby, cook mammoth steaks and pretend to liten to her husband's hunting stories at the same time ;-) Sir Robin -- I can say: 'Thank these bees for their honey as though they were kind people who have prepared it for you'; that is intelligible and describes how I should like you to conduct yourself. But I cannot say: 'Thank them because, look, how kind they are!'--since the next moment they may sting you. - Wittgenstein Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
robin wrote: HaywireMac wrote: On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 20:41:41 +1000 Stephen Kuhn [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Linux/unix/minix/posix/xenix - the idea behind was to create multiple tasks running concurrently from the beginning. I thought SCO invented that... ;-) I thought multi-tasking was invented by some cavewoman who had to hold a baby, cook mammoth steaks and pretend to liten to her husband's hunting stories at the same time ;-) Sir Robin This is why women like using linux - we recognise it as a kindred spirit! Margot Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 03:45, Charlie M. wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 3, 2003 09:11 am, HaywireMac wrote: [..] That's not really the issue, as we were discussing before. I think you even said it, Linux, Unix, whatever platform will never be 100% secure, but as always, I would put a default install of Mandrake up against a patched and configured Windows box any time and bet on a winner. Everything is relative, there are no absolutes... LOL! However, when you talk about something like SELinux, the law of diminishing returns would seem to dictate that the cost/effort would simply be out of sight for anyone below the level of extreme-l33t-haxor to attempt an exploit. In implementing SELinux, the NSA is putting up a platform that they hope will be mostly impervious to anything except a hacker who is backed by the budget and resources of an entire *State*. For that notional elite, and their hypothetical state sponsored projects there are further levels of security, further layers to pass before a hack possibly gains any access in any targeted system. Please don't tell me that you don't think the specific research project identified above, the developers involved, and the agency in control, have never heard of honey traps and tarpits? (-; Or sacrificial decoys; which, with their budget, would likely be standard networking hardware. Oy ... I thought honeypots were illegal now in the US... http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1703 I had thought that (even though I run some) the US system was starting to blast/out-law the simple matter of even running a honey-pot... (What? They're coming to get me here?) stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- Sentenced to two years hard labor (for sodomy), Oscar Wilde stood handcuffed in driving rain waiting for transport to prison. If this is the way Queen Victoria treats her prisoners, he remarked, she doesn't deserve to have any. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 05:08, Charlie M. wrote: Mac OSX users and 'nixers only need apply. (-; I know...I'm a sick bastard. We already know that - and your point IS? stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- Neuroses are red, Melancholia's blue. I'm schizophrenic, What are you? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 05:21, Aron Smith wrote: BTW does any one still have that URL ? http://thor.prohosting.com/~kilgoret/error/404.html stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- The chicken that clucks the loudest is the one most likely to show up at the steam fitters' picnic. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 4, 2003 01:49 pm, Stephen Kuhn wrote: [..] For that notional elite, and their hypothetical state sponsored projects there are further levels of security, further layers to pass before a hack possibly gains any access in any targeted system. Please don't tell me that you don't think the specific research project identified above, the developers involved, and the agency in control, have never heard of honey traps and tarpits? (-; Or sacrificial decoys; which, with their budget, would likely be standard networking hardware. Oy ... I thought honeypots were illegal now in the US... http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1703 I had thought that (even though I run some) the US system was starting to blast/out-law the simple matter of even running a honey-pot... (What? They're coming to get me here?) stephen kuhn - owner Maybe for everyone except for suck-up corporations that help (hypocritical) Officials to snoop on private communication, and the (hypocritical) agencies controlled (hypocritically) Officially? Besides it only matters (apparently, hypocritically) in the Land of the WHEEE and the home of the depraved. (-; Like you I'll do what I do with my own equipment and be damned to anyone that tries to say no. I won't admit to anything more than knowledge of the words honeypot or tarpit, or the name LaBrea. What are they talking about? What security? Where? Plausible deniability ya know Like you I'm an expatriate U.S. citizen, and if they want that citizenship back I still have Canadian citizenship; plus there are a few broken promises and treaties with various of my ancestors that I'd like to hear explained. Publicly. Sick, evil, and twisted; and that's the problem of any of the powers that be that find it offencive, not mine. Anarchists'R'Us. G Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 14:06:06 up 14 days, 3:27, 1 user, load average: 0.29, 0.15, 0.10 Not every question deserves an answer. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/fyv6G11CaRuZZSIRApz8AJ48FqSxBCXSTh+JNHNBdW7i6skKjgCghq/2 TPcNIJOsWcQJQMN1RPsVo/8= =60Rm -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:16:27 +0100 Margot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippers I thought multi-tasking was invented by some cavewoman who had to hold a baby, cook mammoth steaks and pretend to liten to her husband's hunting stories at the same time ;-) Sir Robin This is why women like using linux - we recognise it as a kindred spirit! Margot Here hear Margot! lol mm funny I can't reboot to windows anymore.. I miss My 8 desktops! sigh Femme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 06:09, HaywireMac wrote: We've all heard it many times when a new Microsoft virus comes out. In fact, I've heard it a couple of times this week already. Someone on a mailing list or discussion forum complains about the latest in a long line of Microsoft email viruses or worms and recommends others consider Mac OS X or Linux as a somewhat safer computing platform. In response, another person named, oh, let's call him Bill, says, basically, How ridiculous! The only reason Microsoft software is the target of so many viruses is because it is so widely used! Why, if Linux or Mac OS X was as popular as Windows, there would be just as many viruses written for those platforms! Of course, it's not just regular folks on mailing lists who share this opinion. Businesspeople have expressed similar attitudes ... including ones who work for anti-virus companies. Jack Clarke, European product manager at McAfee, said, So we will be seeing more Linux viruses as the OS becomes more common and popular. and McAfee kills viri for which O/S ? (follow the money) Mr. Clarke is wrong. Source: http://securityfocus.com/columnists/188 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
cut including ones who work for anti-virus companies. Jack Clarke, European product manager at McAfee, said, So we will be seeing more Linux viruses as the OS becomes more common and popular. Mr. Clarke is wrong. Source: http://securityfocus.com/columnists/188 -- i'll offer a slightly different take... i believe we will in time see more efforts at virii for linux/os x/name your fav new os as they become more popular simply because there are those who enjoy seeing what holes they can find or simply enjoy destroying for destruction's sake. but i believe it will simply be more effort - not more successful virii, especially as long as updating is as (usually) painless as it is now. linux will eventually have it's own crises to deal with as new areas are discovered and explored. some may well bring linux downa notch or two, but this community has the benefit of open communication and remarkably fast response; any attack should be a short blip on the radar before it fades and we all move on. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:08:38 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: i'll offer a slightly different take... i believe we will in time see more efforts at virii for linux/os x/name your fav new os as they become more popular simply because there are those who enjoy seeing what holes they can find or simply enjoy destroying for destruction's sake. but i believe it will simply be more effort - not more successful virii, especially as long as updating is as (usually) painless as it is now. linux will eventually have it's own crises to deal with as new areas are discovered and explored. some may well bring linux downa notch or two, but this community has the benefit of open communication and remarkably fast response; any attack should be a short blip on the radar before it fades and we all move on. Actually, that's exactly what the author is saying, not that Linux is impervious, but that the differences between the platforms, as has been pointed out many times on this forum, make them vastly different in terms of the difficulty of finding and executing an exploit. Linux, Unix, and Mac platforms would have to do a complete about-face in terms of their approach to security in order to be as vulnerable as Windows, *regardless of market share*. This is the crusade Stephen has started me on, to debunk this myth wherever and whenever it rears it's ugly head. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ The farther you go, the less you know. -- Lao Tsu, Tao Te Ching Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
--- Original Message --- From: HaywireMac [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG. On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:08:38 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: i'll offer a slightly different take... i believe we will in time see more efforts at virii for linux/os x/name your fav new os as they become more popular simply because there are those who enjoy seeing what holes they can find or simply enjoy destroying for destruction's sake. but i believe it will simply be more effort - not more successful virii, especially as long as updating is as (usually) painless as it is now. linux will eventually have it's own crises to deal with as new areas are discovered and explored. some may well bring linux downa notch or two, but this community has the benefit of open communication and remarkably fast response; any attack should be a short blip on the radar before it fades and we all move on. Actually, that's exactly what the author is saying, not that Linux is impervious, but that the differences between the platforms, as has been pointed out many times on this forum, make them vastly different in terms of the difficulty of finding and executing an exploit. Linux, Unix, and Mac platforms would have to do a complete about-face in terms of their approach to security in order to be as vulnerable as Windows, *regardless of market share*. This is the crusade Stephen has started me on, to debunk this myth wherever and whenever it rears it's ugly head. unfortunately, from work all this qualifies as non-work related so i don't get to explore every offering (in other words, i didn't read the article *g*). but every once in a while one needs to throw their 1/2 cent's worth in anyway *g*. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 11:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: cut including ones who work for anti-virus companies. Jack Clarke, European product manager at McAfee, said, So we will be seeing more Linux viruses as the OS becomes more common and popular. Mr. Clarke is wrong. Source: http://securityfocus.com/columnists/188 -- i'll offer a slightly different take... i believe we will in time see more efforts at virii for linux/os x/name your fav new os as they become more popular simply because there are those who enjoy seeing what holes they can find or simply enjoy destroying for destruction's sake. but i believe it will simply be more effort - not more successful virii, especially as long as updating is as (usually) painless as it is now. linux will eventually have it's own crises to deal with as new areas are discovered and explored. some may well bring linux downa notch or two, but this community has the benefit of open communication and remarkably fast response; any attack should be a short blip on the radar before it fades and we all move on. I don't think soo.. http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
i'll offer a slightly different take... i believe we will in time see more efforts at virii for linux/os x/name your fav new os as they become more popular simply because there are those who enjoy seeing what holes they can find or simply enjoy destroying for destruction's sake. but i believe it will simply be more effort - not more successful virii, especially as long as updating is as (usually) painless as it is now. linux will eventually have it's own crises to deal with as new areas are discovered and explored. some may well bring linux downa notch or two, but this community has the benefit of open communication and remarkably fast response; any attack should be a short blip on the radar before it fades and we all move on. I don't think soo.. http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/ selinux may be good. it may be extraordinarily good. it is not perfect, therefore at some point in time, a way or ways will be found to subvert it to greater or lesser degrees. those attacks will be addressed and the weaknesses rectified, but the damage will happen. i'm not tryig to be rude when i say this: that same cocky self-assurance is what allowed Challenger to happen - and i'm american and it still hurts like hell every time i remember, but assumptions didn't stop it from happening nor will it stop it from happening again. if man is involved, it will fail eventually. linux is no different in thaat regard than anything else manmade. more thoughtfully addressed and nurtured, but still vulnerable. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On 03 Oct 2003 10:28:41 -0400 ed tharp [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: I don't think soo.. http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/ Thanks, I forgot about that one. Unfortunately, existing mainstream operating systems lack the critical security feature required for enforcing separation: mandatory access control. As a consequence, application security mechanisms are vulnerable to tampering and bypass, and malicious or flawed applications can easily cause failures in system security. I wonder what existing mainstream operating systems they are referring to? Why plural? Oh... Windows 95, 98, NT, 2000, XP, etc. ;-) -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ If the master dies and the disciple grieves, the lives of both have been wasted. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:47:08 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: selinux may be good. it may be extraordinarily good. it is not perfect, therefore at some point in time, a way or ways will be found to subvert it to greater or lesser degrees. those attacks will be addressed and the weaknesses rectified, but the damage will happen. i'm not tryig to be rude when i say this: that same cocky self-assurance is what allowed Challenger to happen - and i'm american and it still hurts like hell every time i remember, but assumptions didn't stop it from happening nor will it stop it from happening again. if man is involved, it will fail eventually. linux is no different in thaat regard than anything else manmade. more thoughtfully addressed and nurtured, but still vulnerable. That's not really the issue, as we were discussing before. I think you even said it, Linux, Unix, whatever platform will never be 100% secure, but as always, I would put a default install of Mandrake up against a patched and configured Windows box any time and bet on a winner. Everything is relative, there are no absolutes... LOL! However, when you talk about something like SELinux, the law of diminishing returns would seem to dictate that the cost/effort would simply be out of sight for anyone below the level of extreme-l33t-haxor to attempt an exploit. In implementing SELinux, the NSA is putting up a platform that they hope will be mostly impervious to anything except a hacker who is backed by the budget and resources of an entire *State*. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ The truth of a thing is the feel of it, not the think of it. -- Stanley Kubrick Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 3, 2003 09:11 am, HaywireMac wrote: [..] That's not really the issue, as we were discussing before. I think you even said it, Linux, Unix, whatever platform will never be 100% secure, but as always, I would put a default install of Mandrake up against a patched and configured Windows box any time and bet on a winner. Everything is relative, there are no absolutes... LOL! However, when you talk about something like SELinux, the law of diminishing returns would seem to dictate that the cost/effort would simply be out of sight for anyone below the level of extreme-l33t-haxor to attempt an exploit. In implementing SELinux, the NSA is putting up a platform that they hope will be mostly impervious to anything except a hacker who is backed by the budget and resources of an entire *State*. For that notional elite, and their hypothetical state sponsored projects there are further levels of security, further layers to pass before a hack possibly gains any access in any targeted system. Please don't tell me that you don't think the specific research project identified above, the developers involved, and the agency in control, have never heard of honey traps and tarpits? (-; Or sacrificial decoys; which, with their budget, would likely be standard networking hardware. Regards; Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 11:37:52 up 13 days, 58 min, 1 user, load average: 0.06, 0.06, 0.03 There are three kinds of people: men, women, and unix. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/fbWwG11CaRuZZSIRArBIAJ9XpUN8r/jw1Eqh5T2E/cI8OCg82wCgkXa4 IcCg3+tbW57Kk8Te7zVdHyI= =Z6/w -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 11:45:20 -0600 Charlie M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: For that notional elite, and their hypothetical state sponsored projects there are further levels of security, further layers to pass before a hack possibly gains any access in any targeted system. Please don't tell me that you don't think the specific research project identified above, the developers involved, and the agency in control, have never heard of honey traps and tarpits? (-; Or sacrificial decoys; which, with their budget, would likely be standard networking hardware. Exactement! I once saw an interview with an official from the NSA, and he was asked what kind of computing technology they had at their disposal. IIRC, his answer was something like: Take what you can dream up in your wildest fantasies. Now multiply that by 100. Even factoring in disinformation and propaganda, I don't doubt he was far off the mark. I believe SELinux, as you point out, would be their *absolute minimum* for systems accessible from the WAN, what lays behind it is anybody's guess. All I know is, I'd almost give my left arm to get a good look at it. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. -- A. Camus Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 3, 2003 12:17 pm, HaywireMac wrote: [..] Exactement! I once saw an interview with an official from the NSA, and he was asked what kind of computing technology they had at their disposal. IIRC, his answer was something like: Take what you can dream up in your wildest fantasies. Now multiply that by 100. Even factoring in disinformation and propaganda, I don't doubt he was far off the mark. I believe SELinux, as you point out, would be their *absolute minimum* for systems accessible from the WAN, what lays behind it is anybody's guess. All I know is, I'd almost give my left arm to get a good look at it. There are a lot of IT facilities that I fantasize about having a grand tour through with guides, and that's one of them. Even better would be to own a copy of one. g My dream (short term) though would be to build an Open Source only Broadband ISP. So totally biased and exclusionary that any browser identifying itself as running on a certain corporation's OS would be redirected immediately to the Complaint Department. aka msn.com g Mac OSX users and 'nixers only need apply. (-; I know...I'm a sick bastard. Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 12:58:41 up 13 days, 2:19, 1 user, load average: 0.28, 0.16, 0.16 In specifications, Murphy's Law supersedes Ohm's. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/fcknG11CaRuZZSIRAi6MAJ9COJxO04hLaRynl3YPFIibvIi33ACbB7iS uZzSz5XPs5vafe9SNr5H0+w= =UofV -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 12:08, Charlie M. wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 3, 2003 12:17 pm, HaywireMac wrote: [..] Exactement! I once saw an interview with an official from the NSA, and he was asked what kind of computing technology they had at their disposal. IIRC, his answer was something like: Take what you can dream up in your wildest fantasies. Now multiply that by 100. Even factoring in disinformation and propaganda, I don't doubt he was far off the mark. I believe SELinux, as you point out, would be their *absolute minimum* for systems accessible from the WAN, what lays behind it is anybody's guess. All I know is, I'd almost give my left arm to get a good look at it. There are a lot of IT facilities that I fantasize about having a grand tour through with guides, and that's one of them. Even better would be to own a copy of one. g The HP regional E-Mail center coms to mind My dream (short term) though would be to build an Open Source only Broadband ISP. So totally biased and exclusionary that any browser identifying itself as running on a certain corporation's OS would be redirected immediately to the Complaint Department. Too kind send them to stephen's 'nix page BTW does any one still have that URL ? aka msn.com g Mac OSX users and 'nixers only need apply. (-; I know...I'm a sick bastard. Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 12:58:41 up 13 days, 2:19, 1 user, load average: 0.28, 0.16, 0.16 In specifications, Murphy's Law supersedes Ohm's. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/fcknG11CaRuZZSIRAi6MAJ9COJxO04hLaRynl3YPFIibvIi33ACbB7iS uZzSz5XPs5vafe9SNr5H0+w= =UofV -END PGP SIGNATURE- __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 13:08:14 -0600 Charlie M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: There are a lot of IT facilities that I fantasize about having a grand tour through with guides, and that's one of them. Even better would be to own a copy of one. g Go to your local hobby/used equipment shop with a few grand, buy about 20 old Pentium 2's, and build your own Beowulf cluster: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/HOWTO/other-formats/html_single/Beowulf-HOWTO.html Immediately afterward, phone your local police and explain that the sudden and alarming spike in your electricity bill is *not* because you are running a hydroponics grow op! My dream (short term) though would be to build an Open Source only Broadband ISP. See above. Depending on where you are, you could easily lease the lines from the local Phone Company. The cluster could easily handle millions of concurrent connections, and you'd have no shortage of enthusiastic consultants, lemme assure you! So totally biased and exclusionary that any browser identifying itself as running on a certain corporation's OS would be redirected immediately to the Complaint Department. aka msn.com g Mac OSX users and 'nixers only need apply. (-; I know...I'm a sick bastard. Are you kidding? I'd be your 1st customer! And believe me, you'd have a lineup behind me a hundred miles long... And can you imagine when some poor soul calls for tech support, and you ask what OS are you running? Uh, Windows... Sorry, we don't support that... ROTFLMAO! -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it. -- Oscar Wilde, The Portrait of Mr. W.H. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:08:38 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: i'll offer a slightly different take... i believe we will in time see more efforts at virii for linux/os x/name your fav new os as they become more popular simply because there are those who enjoy seeing what holes they can find or simply enjoy destroying for destruction's sake. but i believe it will simply be more effort - not more successful virii, especially as long as updating is as (usually) painless as it is now. linux will eventually have it's own crises to deal with as new areas are discovered and explored. some may well bring linux downa notch or two, but this community has the benefit of open communication and remarkably fast response; any attack should be a short blip on the radar before it fades and we all move on. Actually, that's exactly what the author is saying, not that Linux is impervious, but that the differences between the platforms, as has been pointed out many times on this forum, make them vastly different in terms of the difficulty of finding and executing an exploit. Linux, Unix, and Mac platforms would have to do a complete about-face in terms of their approach to security in order to be as vulnerable as Windows, *regardless of market share*. This is the crusade Stephen has started me on, to debunk this myth wherever and whenever it rears it's ugly head. I agree, we need to simply ask what evidence there is to back up the statement that Ms is vulnerable because of it's predominance, not let 'them' get away with the bald statement as fact. There would be more kudos from attacking linux systems for the 'real' crackers, as opposed to the social misfits (i.e. the ones who get caught) who merely spread viri on Windows boxes, so I believe that the threat to linux is greater. BUT, as we all know, the damage is much more restricted (unless you're stupid enough to run as root). Paul M _ CYTANET WebMail http://webmail.cytanet.com.cy Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:08:38 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: i'll offer a slightly different take... i believe we will in time see more efforts at virii for linux/os x/name your fav new os as they become more popular simply because there are those who enjoy seeing what holes they can find or simply enjoy destroying for destruction's sake. but i believe it will simply be more effort - not more successful virii, especially as long as updating is as (usually) painless as it is now. linux will eventually have it's own crises to deal with as new areas are discovered and explored. some may well bring linux downa notch or two, but this community has the benefit of open communication and remarkably fast response; any attack should be a short blip on the radar before it fades and we all move on. Actually, that's exactly what the author is saying, not that Linux is impervious, but that the differences between the platforms, as has been pointed out many times on this forum, make them vastly different in terms of the difficulty of finding and executing an exploit. Linux, Unix, and Mac platforms would have to do a complete about-face in terms of their approach to security in order to be as vulnerable as Windows, *regardless of market share*. This is the crusade Stephen has started me on, to debunk this myth wherever and whenever it rears it's ugly head. I agree, we need to simply ask what evidence there is to back up the statement that Ms is vulnerable because of it's predominance, not let 'them' get away with the bald statement as fact. There would be more kudos from attacking linux systems for the 'real' crackers, as opposed to the social misfits (i.e. the ones who get caught) who merely spread viri on Windows boxes, so I believe that the threat to linux is greater. BUT, as we all know, the damage is much more restricted (unless you're stupid enough to run as root). Paul M _ CYTANET WebMail http://webmail.cytanet.com.cy Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
ed tharp wrote: On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 11:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: cut including ones who work for anti-virus companies. Jack Clarke, European product manager at McAfee, said, So we will be seeing more Linux viruses as the OS becomes more common and popular. Mr. Clarke is wrong. Source: http://securityfocus.com/columnists/188 -- i'll offer a slightly different take... i believe we will in time see more efforts at virii for linux/os x/name your fav new os as they become more popular simply because there are those who enjoy seeing what holes they can find or simply enjoy destroying for destruction's sake. but i believe it will simply be more effort - not more successful virii, especially as long as updating is as (usually) painless as it is now. linux will eventually have it's own crises to deal with as new areas are discovered and explored. some may well bring linux downa notch or two, but this community has the benefit of open communication and remarkably fast response; any attack should be a short blip on the radar before it fades and we all move on. I don't think soo.. http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/ And since the modifications the NSA make are Open Source, this means that in effect we have some of the cleverest and most paranoid programmers on our side. Beats McAfee any day. Sir Robin -- I can say: 'Thank these bees for their honey as though they were kind people who have prepared it for you'; that is intelligible and describes how I should like you to conduct yourself. But I cannot say: 'Thank them because, look, how kind they are!'--since the next moment they may sting you. - Wittgenstein Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 22:49:51 +0300 robin [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Beats McAfee any day. In general, *not* using McAfee beats McAfee, since you are probably less likely to think you are safe and therefore more likely to be vigilant... -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Wisdom is knowing what to do with what you know. -- J. Winter Smith Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
Charlie M. wrote: My dream (short term) though would be to build an Open Source only Broadband ISP. So totally biased and exclusionary that any browser identifying itself as running on a certain corporation's OS would be redirected immediately to the Complaint Department. aka msn.com g Mac OSX users and 'nixers only need apply. (-; I know...I'm a sick bastard. Having spent days unsuccessfully trying to get my mother's BT Broadband account running under Linux, you have my support for that project! Sir Robin -- I can say: 'Thank these bees for their honey as though they were kind people who have prepared it for you'; that is intelligible and describes how I should like you to conduct yourself. But I cannot say: 'Thank them because, look, how kind they are!'--since the next moment they may sting you. - Wittgenstein Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 16:07, Aron Smith wrote: On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 12:49, robin wrote: ed tharp wrote: On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 11:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: cut including ones who work for anti-virus companies. Jack Clarke, European product manager at McAfee, said, So we will be seeing more Linux viruses as the OS becomes more common and popular. Mr. Clarke is wrong. Source: http://securityfocus.com/columnists/188 -- i'll offer a slightly different take... i believe we will in time see more efforts at virii for linux/os x/name your fav new os as they become more popular simply because there are those who enjoy seeing what holes they can find or simply enjoy destroying for destruction's sake. but i believe it will simply be more effort - not more successful virii, especially as long as updating is as (usually) painless as it is now. linux will eventually have it's own crises to deal with as new areas are discovered and explored. some may well bring linux downa notch or two, but this community has the benefit of open communication and remarkably fast response; any attack should be a short blip on the radar before it fades and we all move on. I don't think soo.. http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/ And since the modifications the NSA make are Open Source, this means that in effect we have some of the cleverest and most paranoid programmers on our side. Beats McAfee any day. They are so sneaky ...they claim that they don't exist and you can't find them either Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] MS is target because of market share? WRONG.
On October 3, 2003 06:09 am, HaywireMac wrote: We've all heard it many times when a new Microsoft virus comes out. In fact, I've heard it a couple of times this week already. Someone on a mailing list or discussion forum complains about the latest in a long line of Microsoft email viruses or worms and recommends others consider Mac OS X or Linux as a somewhat safer computing platform. In response, snip Of course, it's not just regular folks on mailing lists who share this opinion. Businesspeople have expressed similar attitudes ... including ones who work for anti-virus companies. Jack Clarke, European product manager at McAfee, said, So we will be seeing more Linux viruses as the OS becomes more common and popular. Mr. Clarke is wrong. Source: http://securityfocus.com/columnists/188 It's a nice summary of a lot of the security concerned running around right now concerning the Dark Force of Redmond. Even funnier is the outrage from mostly anonymous defenders of M$ who last seem to have looked at Linux way back at RH 1.0. Let's see now, hard to use, never upgraded (not there's a good giggle), too difficult for users, not business friendly because it wants to be secure out of the box.. Oh well, one can always expect the trolls to come up from the muck under the bridge they're hiding under when these things raise their ugly heads :) ttfn John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
