Re: [opensuse-factory] Automatic hardware detection and configuration.
* David Bolt [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Mar 04. 2007 18:09]: After numerous requests for information on what to do when replacing a graphics card and booting to end up with a black/blank screen, it's made me wonder: Why on earth isn't SUSE maintaining a list of all the devices attached, performing a check each time it boots, and asking the user if they'd like to configure any new devices that have been added? Well, the list of known devices is kept below /var/lib/hardware/udi/ If a changed graphics card isn't properly detected, I'd consider this a bug. The system should either run SaX directly or use yast2 x11 to do the configuration. Klaus --- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Recent factory updater
On Sonntag 04 März 2007 19:27:40 wrote Donn Washburn: Folks be aware of the fact the most recent update to this machine in attempt to just get audio files has removed about all of the development packages without replacing them. xine-lib will no longer compile due to missing gnome libs which were found to be missing the correct links to /usr/lib. So far about every required libfile.ls is missing. So, far taglibs, libdaemon and libdaemon-gtk.so are missing Advice - be very careful if you use the SuSE updater. Oh yea - the updater even screwed up Yast - it was looking for a .so.4 lib which was missing. I fixed the by linking it to the only file which was a .so.3 Does this mean that you were able to update without any warning about broken dependencies ? Please create a bugreport in that case, otherwise it is just your fault that you updated to an inconsistent state ;) bye adrian -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 jdd schreef: M9. wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 jdd schreef: Francis Giannaros wrote: Like I said though anyway, this is a tried, tested and proven method: many other projects have these, and they work tremendously well. I think we agree on the fact, just discussing the how (personally I don't like IRC) jdd That is a shame, because that would be the most simple... You can even open a channel for it * I don't type fast enough to have a fluent conversation. * I like to think twice at what I say * it's very difficult to follow more than two conversations on the same chat, I don't like IRC so I don't use it and I'm not comfortable with the shortkeys and commands (for private chat, for example). I can't learn for only one occasion... * It's difficult to archive a chat for subsequent relation * anyway most bug tracking needs time * do you know nowaday phone is free between many countries (for example I can phone for free to USA or germany without computer), this I know :-) I often do phone call debugging :-) jdd You mean like skype or ekiga? An opinion based as yours, i would not want to change, i respect it. The way will be shown, i am sure off... I like people who are clear about things...(but this has nothing to do with the subject) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 release 45.2 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6/OGX5/X5X6LpDgRAqO+AJ0SQFKZC0gShkO17EB3qipFeFbuuACeNujK iUZI70cpevH4N5LT4xl5v6E= =GqCn -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-03-04 at 18:13 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: On Sunday 04 March 2007 16:59, Carlos E. R. wrote: ... Frankly, I would prefer bugs being solved rather than adding new features. As it is now, things are expected to be solved on the next suse release... which adds new bugs, so we never are finished, not even nearly so. The only software that's finished is software that's dead. No one's job is more interminable than that of the author of successful software. I know - didn't you notice the ''? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF6/jltTMYHG2NR9URArSpAKCJdo9Ool0FxflxLScisErAzzH9WgCglOO1 WaQ4YBkzQD2mlHkSklBfQgw= =eD8W -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 04:05 -, Sid Boyce wrote: So, please, keep the good work done with KDE, but also do not forget Gnome and try to make it be buggless. Even if it is not shiny, we would very much like it to at least work, without _big_ bugs. The use of KDE was the main reason I was attracted away from Redhat and that gawd awful CDE that graces Sun to this day. The main reason I'd be driven away from openSUSE would be the jettisoning of KDE - assurances have been given, but the push to do so is often voiced. The problem I personally have with a Gnome desktop is on two fronts. 1. It's too foreign and restrictive/prescriptive when you're used to KDE - there was a time when Gnome on SuSE was almost verboten. It may be just the ticket for anyone recently coming from Windows. 2. Try updating a Gnome app and you run into horrendous dependency problems - doesn't apply to people who install and don't need to touch. Please... I'm not trying to convince anybody to use gnome instead of kde. Not so! Linux is about freedom, and freedom of choice is an important freedom. You prefer kde? Fine, perfect! You don't need to convince me, I like it. But I also like gnome, and I want it to be taken care off - both of them. That there is more effort shown into kde? Fine! But please, do not forget gnome. I have no fear at all of SuSE going all over to gnome. That's kind of fud spread by the kde crowd :-P and it's just not going to happen. Why do I like gnome? Less clutter, less gadgetry :-P Updating gnome tools? I do it myself, I have compiled several gnome apps with no problem. In fact, I have more problems compiling and installing kde apps :-p There are many Gnome apps I like and run, so I install and update both Gnome and KDE as updates become available, but I largely don't get adventurous with Gnome. I wish both to progress and succeed, but just keep giving us the choice. Hobson's choice is not for us old fogies for whom SuSE (however you write it) is synonymous with KDE - Flexibility, configurability and easy to build for. looks like that's more than just two fronts when broken down. That's right, freedom of choice. There is no freedom if people tell gnome users to switch to another distro (some say so). - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF6/uPtTMYHG2NR9URAm0dAJ9auVtScRoXWUEdE+1diBEzVy0sfwCdHZ6j QEijc4aIJ/FPba9dHzTcIdk= =b54m -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-03-04 at 22:21 -0600, Rajko M. wrote: After all posts about IRC, I decided to make a list of my reasons: ... There was a comment that email will be essentially repeating what is done on bugzilla. Yes, it will be, but using medium where threading is supported which will give us easy way to see who is replying to what, which thread goes in right direction. Bugzilla messages are not intended for discussions, and reading beyond first few posts becomes quite annoying experience. Plus, email is faster than bugzilla, and doesn't need a (semi)permanent network connection. Those people paying per minute or per kilobyte can make better use of email than any web based approach, or chat. An alternative, would be a private news server (with auth). Novell site has one, if I remember correctly. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF6/0GtTMYHG2NR9URAj0EAJ4mY/QuGC1s2MWf/tq2M18IrshD8gCbBanq A36USDT3HFWrBSWrGrC15T8= =47yO -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Carlos E. R. schreef: The Sunday 2007-03-04 at 18:13 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: On Sunday 04 March 2007 16:59, Carlos E. R. wrote: ... Frankly, I would prefer bugs being solved rather than adding new features. As it is now, things are expected to be solved on the next suse release... which adds new bugs, so we never are finished, not even nearly so. The only software that's finished is software that's dead. No one's job is more interminable than that of the author of successful software. I know - didn't you notice the ''? Not that it matters, but yes i agree to the opinion: Never postpone untill tomorrow, what you can get done by someone else today... Who's stopping who from solving bugs? But, who or what decides which bugs are the most important? Bugs that are realy annoying, because they are so frequent that you have to workaround them every day, should have been solved first, is my opinion. Also, which bugs have returned from 'being solved', and which ones are realy solved? So there has to be asked for info from the reporter, (i 've seen this suggestion in this thread allready..) but this has to be done, to know if the work is still nessesary... And how to 'organise' bugzilla, to 'group' similar bugs, or to which part of the system they belong? (if that would be wise or nessesary..) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 release 45.2 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6/9JX5/X5X6LpDgRAo8KAJ9qLJVNhIZPVn8nWu0uZLoctNG7uQCfem9r SJeKAlEdRZUQa+oLoUWHP3U= =FowM -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 jdd schreef: M9. wrote: You mean like skype or ekiga? not even... in Frances adsl is given through boxes (the older is freebox, and phone with this is IP phone, free to many countries (fixed phones) jdd Yes, IP-phone, it begins to become popular around these region also... But I must say, that i myself still do not use them... But they get offered, might consider to take one, for future use... On the other hand, i believe that the intention to do something 'collective', is great! And knowing this is happening, and be able to join, will make it even greater... Maybe using a message board specific for the purpose? Or as Carlos suggested: the Novel Private Newsserver? (if permitted?) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 release 45.2 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF7AILX5/X5X6LpDgRAhntAJ9ojI/5feX7VcMzvr1MSmSbbAo6qQCdGETV ofq2TBjr/aygWGJuaqZOM28= =hOQ6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 12:30 +0100, M9. wrote: Not that it matters, but yes i agree to the opinion: Never postpone untill tomorrow, what you can get done by someone else today... Who's stopping who from solving bugs? Pressure for new features is one reason, IMO. But, who or what decides which bugs are the most important? Bugs that are realy annoying, because they are so frequent that you have to workaround them every day, should have been solved first, is my opinion. There should be a person that goes around checking the bugzilla list, full time, taking decissions, asigning bugs, checking after some time same bugs, asking the developper, asking the reporter, etc. I suppose they do have such a dedicated person at Novell, but I have reported bugs for which I got no comment at all after weeks... so I very much doubt they do have him/her. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7AfftTMYHG2NR9URAgd+AJ9WZxvJe9MbQWPanyFKjqH/ucIkfQCeNFMO B+E0ynW2xIeK7yrV2AATYNM= =L6Jx -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Carlos E. R. schreef: The Monday 2007-03-05 at 12:30 +0100, M9. wrote: Not that it matters, but yes i agree to the opinion: Never postpone untill tomorrow, what you can get done by someone else today... Who's stopping who from solving bugs? Pressure for new features is one reason, IMO. Might be possible But, who or what decides which bugs are the most important? Bugs that are realy annoying, because they are so frequent that you have to workaround them every day, should have been solved first, is my opinion. There should be a person that goes around checking the bugzilla list, full time, taking decissions, asigning bugs, checking after some time same bugs, asking the developper, asking the reporter, etc. I suppose they do have such a dedicated person at Novell, but I have reported bugs for which I got no comment at all after weeks... so I very much doubt they do have him/her. At least not for that task on the payrole.if so, i would fire,...or put some gentile pressure upon that person.. ;-) Maybe someone would do it voluntarily, it looks as a womans job to me, (as i remember, women are allways better with these kind of things) some kind of secretaresse, attending this, selfrespecting software company's utmost important job. But there might be men who are qualified to do this... (for little money, and many kind words?) At least, we agree, that the 'bugzilla' should be 'organised' Who feels him/herself 'called' to do this nessesary, and responsible job? (or we might point out a volunteer? (Asterix le gaulois)) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 release 45.2 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF7AycX5/X5X6LpDgRAoD7AKCGRqkOCHQgPuVfZQSpOt7PV8TCrgCgu5G4 ejVMqW8D/pzO4qbm80cs7Jk= =tu/7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Where can I find the package nss-mdns?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] píše v Ne 04. 03. 2007 v 12:36 +0100: Hi, Where can I find the package nss-mdns? You cannot find it anywhere, this is a new package that is still missing from the factory tree. Since quite some time actually, at least since 20070221. That's when avahi started to require it: You can get one from GNOME:UNSTABLE Build Service, if you cannot find it elsewhere- http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-commit/2007-02/msg00716.html Furthermore, the avahi.spec file says: # Not really required, but many tools expect nss-mdns installed: Requires: nss-mdns I wonder why a package should be allowed to require a package that is not really required... avahi-daemon and avahi-dnsconfd don't require it. But for example avahi-bookmarks (from the same package) expects, that .local domain is resolved (otherwise you will end with unresolvable domains). Other programs also silently expect nss-mdns present (e. g. banshee). And package mDNSResponder had it in the main package. -- Best Regards / S pozdravem, Stanislav Brabec software developer - SUSE LINUX, s. r. o. e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lihovarská 1060/12tel: +420 284 028 966 190 00 Praha 9fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republichttp://www.suse.cz/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Recent factory updater
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Advice - be very careful if you use the SuSE updater. You should report such issues to bugzilla instead of discouraging users from testing factory. In your bugzilla report, be very specific about the information you provide (which updater are you using: we have lots of them; which .so.3 is causing problems; we have lots of them) and attach logfiles. Advising people to be careful with the SuSE updater does not get the bugs fixed. Oh yea - the updater even screwed up Yast - it was looking for a .so.4 lib which was missing. I fixed the by linking it to the only file which was a .so.3 Never create such symlinks, this is wrong. If this would work (which it doesn't), the library had not been renamed from .so.3 to .so.4 in the first place. I'm guessing that with .so.3 and .so.4, you mean libcurl. Yes, this library had a major update recently, but there is a compatibility package, so this should not have happened. (The update worked for me). If it didn't work smoothly for you, this is a bug that must be fixed instead of being worked around. Andreas Hanke In a direct email, I've pointed to the correct version of curl that has been available in factory since 23rd. Feb. I've only had one problem with YaST for which I opened a bug and that was fixed by yast2-packager-2.15.18-2, bugzilla delivers, but quite often problems are due to local screwups, the worst can be caused by people using make install of an updated local source build, hence I always recommend using checkinstall and rpm -Uvh to keep the RPM database honest. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Where can I find the package nss-mdns?
Hi, avahi-daemon and avahi-dnsconfd don't require it. But for example avahi-bookmarks (from the same package) expects, that .local domain is resolved (otherwise you will end with unresolvable domains). In this case it is a circular dependency. Not actually in the rpm Requires sense (because nss-mdns does not have Requires: avahi), but http://0pointer.de/lennart/projects/nss-mdns/ says: nss-mdns will not work unless Avahi is running! That makes Avahi essentially a hard dependency of nss-mdns. If the packages really need each other, it might be a better idea to ship them in the same source tarball (but that would have to be handled upstream). Andreas Hanke -- Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal für Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Where can I find the package nss-mdns?
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 02:12:43PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the packages really need each other, it might be a better idea to ship them in the same source tarball (but that would have to be handled upstream). Not really. This does not mean that they need a specific version of each other. Robert -- Robert Schiele Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur. pgpn0EVIrKHJU.pgp Description: PGP signature
[opensuse-factory] The stanby option works outstanding on 10.2 x86_64 :-)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As subjectline, thnx for fixing this properly... - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 release 45.2 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF7B2IX5/X5X6LpDgRAnmQAKCjHQISdhJDav5SVhQdpTnwCGh6+wCgwFR0 nio4YpL5X4maWiWtkTSRmNs= =QEGk -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
Il giorno lun, 05/03/2007 alle 04.05 +, Sid Boyce ha scritto: The use of KDE was the main reason I was attracted away from Redhat and that gawd awful CDE that graces Sun to this day. The main reason I'd be driven away from openSUSE would be the jettisoning of KDE - assurances have been given, but the push to do so is often voiced. No one wants KDE out of OpenSUSE I think. It would mean to seriously damage the distribution itself. Many (if not all) users use a mixture of GNOME and KDE apps. So, don't worry :-) Regards, Alberto - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
Il giorno sab, 03/03/2007 alle 13.05 -0600, Rajko M. ha scritto: Well, both is an extension, just one is fine for fast responses, and the other allows more asynchronous work that will group more people that might be not familiar with bugzilla and/or IRC, can't attend at the times that are scheduled, but still can help. Sorting out to one medium will do just opposite from what is wanted. Yes and no. The goal is to work together on specific, serious problems. So doing asynchronous work seems pointless to me. I can use IRC in the most basic form. That and time constrains will prevent me from attending antibug fest. This is sad. Would a forum be better? What is the best can be decided on the run. I don't see the need to insist on one communication channel that fits for some purposes, and not for the other. In my opinion with multiple communication channels we risk to have a lot of duplicates and a significant loss in time/efficiency. For example different groups working on the same problem on IRC, on ML, by mail... Regards, Alberto - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
Hello, I am afraid I was busy - therefore my late answer now: In general I like to learn about which end-user requirements are behind the items below. E.g. set up a printer as non-root is not an end-user requirement. The end-user wants something different and this leads somehow to set up printer as non-root which is an implementation detail from the end-users point of view. Please provide the original end-user requirement and how this leads to the items which you described below. On Feb 28 18:07 JP Rosevear wrote (shortened): 1) Detecting a local USB printer when plugged into the machine and prompting the user to configure it or automatically selecting a driver and configuring the printer Main problem here: Detect if there is already a queue for a plugged in USB printer. Problem because there are different backends for USB printers e.g. usb in CUPS, epson and canon in Gimp-Print/Gutenprint, hal in HAL, and each printer manufacturer can make its own backend, e.g. HP has hp and hpfax, Epson Avasys has ekplp, ... I.e. how to force the printer manufacturers to use all the same style for DeviceURIs for USB printers so that one can detect that this individual printer is already configured? For true zero config printer, we'd need to build up a database of printer ids and driver mappings and include that in the distro. Model names are often useless e.g. many Epson USB printers show up only as USB printer - in contrast for HP model names work o.k. so that only USB IDs would work well but currently we don't have a list of USB printer USB verdor and model IDs. 2) Not needing root to configure a printer What does configure a printer mean? Set up a queue for new plugged in USB printer? Change any settings for any existing queue? What is the original end-user requirement behind this item? 3) Detecting when a printer is connected/disconnected and offering visual feedback via a notification area icon, or some other ui feedback Why any visual feedback at all? I assume you have USB printers in midn because only hotpluggable printers can be connected/disconnected while the system is up and running. But a USB printer is locally conneted so that the user who connects/disconnects it already knows it and doesn't need additional visual feedback about what he did. Again: What is the original end-user requirement behind this item? 4) Ability to remove printers from cups (even shared printers) when they're unplugged to prevent jobs from accumulating in the queue or being default I do not understand what or being default means? What do you mean with remove shared printers? Again: What is the original end-user requirement behind this item? Are you perhaps talking about the CUPS error policy, see http://www.cups.org/documentation.php/ref-printers-conf.html and http://www.cups.org/documentation.php/man-backend.html Background info: If for whatever reason a queue can no longer print (e.g. after a USB printer was unplugged) there are four possible reactions: 1. Do nothing and leave it up to the particular backend and the CUPS error policy what happens to further print jobs. 2. Disable printing (but still let jobs queue): Useful when there is only a short-time outage. 3. Reject jobs: Useful when there is a longer time outage. 4. Remove the queue (all info about the queue gets lost): Useful when the printer will not come back at all (e.g. one model is replaced by a different model). Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
Hello, On Mar 2 18:44 JP Rosevear wrote (shortened): On Fri, 2007-03-02 at 11:56 +0100, Ludwig Nussel wrote: JP Rosevear wrote: On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 11:29 +0100, Ludwig Nussel wrote: What specific part of printer configuration should a user be able to do without authentication? Network printers Network printers??? What about http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:CUPS_in_a_Nutshell Intrinsic design of CUPS for printing in the network What is the original end-user requirement behind? Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
On Monday 05 March 2007 03:02, Carlos E. R. wrote: The Sunday 2007-03-04 at 18:13 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: On Sunday 04 March 2007 16:59, Carlos E. R. wrote: ... Frankly, I would prefer bugs being solved rather than adding new features. As it is now, things are expected to be solved on the next suse release... which adds new bugs, so we never are finished, not even nearly so. The only software that's finished is software that's dead. No one's job is more interminable than that of the author of successful software. I know - didn't you notice the ''? It sounded like you thought that was a bad thing. RRS - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Update policy, Seamonkey and OpenOffice.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-03-04 at 20:26 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote: ... Are there any chances that updates for Seamonkey and OpenOffice will become available for openSUSE? OpenOffice 2.0.4 will likely stay for openSUSE 10.2, since we do not do version upgrades (if not absolutely necessary). How about: ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/ftp.suse.com/projects/OpenOffice.org/10.2-i386/2.1-0.1 They are prepared by Petr Mladek, I think. I haven't installed them yet, it's on my to-do list. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7DW5tTMYHG2NR9URAiGgAJ9ElDWPftMa+UDMKZ6IQzjuIkhvwQCfVNpb cHKXJDYRz8Uc/xoXNIBoQww= =ZYAm -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
Hello all, I read the last 89 entries at one sitting and I have formulated an opinion that I have sort of posted b4. I think a radicle change to release theory should be entertained. I think that since 10.2 was a December release we had the opportunity to change to an annual release cycle. With this change we could . have both repository and bugzilla quarterly change cycle. I.E. January: 10.3 ao: would be a new repository with 10.2 code and it's goal would be just to include bugfixes found in the first three months of 10.2.. nothing else, using this repo as a repair location for things like the current ZMD issue, this could be an edge update channel with scripts\rpm's to effect repairs. sort of an annual remastering. April: 10.3 a1: move code with bugfixes in the first quarter and include program updates that have been voted on as stabilized in the build service during the the first half of year July: 10.3 b0: move code with bugfixes from second quarter\first half. as well as mods to first half program updates as stabilized by the buildservice. Announce all testing requirements and start all testing. September: 10.3 b1: move code w\updates begin code freezing processes. December: 10.3 final: Move frozen code to release repo. This would stabilize peoples expectations as to when they will need to start testing and give a full 5 months to stabilize(release could be 12\20 every year! Happy Holiday ) This would as a minor side effect slow down the adoption of cutting edge packages and technologies but also give the whole linux community time to create stability in those packages before OpenSUSE uses them officially. Consider that the buildservice would handle most of the testing and stabilizing work on the cutting edge, not the factory. i.e. kde4\gnome 2.x Most importantly any update service changes could be Add-ons! I think it is important to state that the Buildservice is an entity of it's own, with the responsibility of generating packages suitable for the main distro, therefor having the main distro slow down isn't a bad thing. The main distro factory should only concern itself with functionality updates and YAST expansion. i.e. printer discovery and more Yast modules like one for building a proxy server and adding a filtering service or expanding the choices in the DHCP config module. The BS should be the place where all community and cutting edge work gets done in a download it at your own risk add-on fashion, taking the risk out of using the main distro. This would likely reduce the cost of including the 18 months of security patches to OpenSuSE and 5 years support to SLED by minimizing the base distro changes. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
James Tremblay wrote: change to an annual release cycle. notice that Mandriva went back to a 6month release cycle... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Lucien Dodin, inventeur http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
Il giorno lun, 05/03/2007 alle 10.51 -0500, James Tremblay ha scritto: Hello all, I read the last 89 entries at one sitting and I have formulated an opinion that I have sort of posted b4. I think a radicle change to release theory should be entertained. I think that since 10.2 was a December release we had the opportunity to change to an annual release cycle. I think an annual release cycle is too long. Linux and related applications change fast and a long release cycle risks to make users unhappy. If the release cycle is made longer, the release of updated applications through an official channel (not additional repositories or OBS) becomes necessary. If not done, we risk to have an obsolete distribution soon. In my opinion, if we want a stable distribution, the use of the build service or of additional repository should be considered an occasional event for the common user, to get only what is not / can't be provided in the distribution. Regards, Alberto - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
Den Monday 05 March 2007 14:49:15 skrev Alberto Passalacqua: Many (if not all) users use a mixture of GNOME and KDE apps. So, don't worry :-) Stop giving GNOME credit for Firefox, GIMP, Azureus, Xchat, Thunderbird etc. People use GTK-apps, noone uses true GNOME apps. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
Carlos, On Monday 05 March 2007 07:32, Carlos E. R. wrote: The Monday 2007-03-05 at 07:03 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: next suse release... which adds new bugs, so we never are finished, not even nearly so. The only software that's finished is software that's dead. No one's job is more interminable than that of the author of successful software. I know - didn't you notice the ''? It sounded like you thought that was a bad thing. Mixed feelings. I want no bugs, and I want new features. Therefore, I would prefer bugs being cleared before commencing work on new features... at least, having left only negligible bugs that do not impede working with the affected program. That is unrealistic. Fixing bugs alone does not add sufficient value (in most circumstances) to justify the effort required. (The don't call economics the dismal science for nothing.) Of course, there are fields where errors are far more costly: Avionics, medical diagnostic and therapeutic devices, spacecraft, etc. In those areas, the requisite effort is devoted to drive errors down to rates acceptable in those applications. But even then, no one expects zero defects. They want zero defects. They strive for zero defects, but they do not wait for zero defects to field the technologies. Nor could they. Many defects are manifest only in actual operational contexts. IMO, I consider a program to be finished when it has no bugs left. Adding new features is like a new project. That, too, is an unrealistic view. Incremental development is a cornerstone of sound software engineering. The monolithic approach is unsustainable, as experience has already shown us. I know programmers never consider a program finished. I programmed for a living, so I know that... but that is not necesarily a good thing. Are houses ever finished? They are, but they are also periodically improved and enhanced and modified. Whether it's a good thing or not is moot. I consider it a curse, personally, but I love programming and software design, so it's something I live with. And it's something the field continues to devise better ways to cope with. You know, programming is the only profession where errors are called bugs and accepted as normal. So a bridge collapsing is normal, too? The simple fact of the matter is that with the programming technologies we have to work with today, bugs fundamentally cannot be eliminated. We cannot even prove that bugs are not there. At best, we can demonstrate that they do exist. Resource-constrained development as well as the intrinsic nature of information processing forces tradeoffs between addressing bugs, improving performance and adding capabilities. And yes, structural failures have always happened and will continue to happen. The fields of civil and mechanical engineering are very mature with professional certification required to practice, and yet failures continue to occur. The only way to eliminate bugs and failures is to cease to increase our ambitions. Then we can just sit around polishing and maintaining what we already have. Take your pick. Randall Schulz - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Printing in openSUSE 10.3
On Mon, 2007-03-05 at 15:30 +0100, Johannes Meixner wrote: Hello, On Mar 2 18:44 JP Rosevear wrote (shortened): On Fri, 2007-03-02 at 11:56 +0100, Ludwig Nussel wrote: JP Rosevear wrote: On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 11:29 +0100, Ludwig Nussel wrote: What specific part of printer configuration should a user be able to do without authentication? Network printers Network printers??? What about http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:CUPS_in_a_Nutshell Intrinsic design of CUPS for printing in the network What is the original end-user requirement behind? The original requirement is two fold 1) Ease of use for end users It works perfectly fine on Windows XP and OS X to browse network printers and print to one without requiring admin privileges. 2) Restricting root access for admins Admins want to allow straightforward operations like changing the wireless network or adding a printer without giving out the full root password (which allows things like installing new packages) Item 1) is primary here, its just easier. -JP -- JP Rosevear [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell, Inc. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 09:09 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: You know, programming is the only profession where errors are called bugs and accepted as normal. So a bridge collapsing is normal, too? The simple fact of the matter is that with the programming technologies we have to work with today, bugs fundamentally cannot be eliminated. We cannot even prove that bugs are not there. At best, we can demonstrate that they do exist. Resource-constrained development as well as the intrinsic nature of information processing forces tradeoffs between addressing bugs, improving performance and adding capabilities. There are some companies around producing bugless code. They spend like two years designing, and only about 6 month coding. It is indeed possible. Of course, they charge a lot for that class of code. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7GcFtTMYHG2NR9URAmkRAJ0RDPBq9fZhBXMYPTDSLD+DY+bPjACghWn7 0aBevYqKmcEvJZ155wNyzdw= =FDnc -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 17:32 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote: People use GTK-apps, noone uses true GNOME apps. Are you sure? I use a Gnome desktop. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7GdKtTMYHG2NR9URAmGjAJ4scnpFOF5+8LNbD7lrJQd1Wsm2QwCfRGQU 6mVBhonrBerAmYGo37HQb9Q= =2ONi -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Update policy, Seamonkey and OpenOffice.org
Carlos E. R. wrote: The Sunday 2007-03-04 at 20:26 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote: ... Are there any chances that updates for Seamonkey and OpenOffice will become available for openSUSE? OpenOffice 2.0.4 will likely stay for openSUSE 10.2, since we do not do version upgrades (if not absolutely necessary). How about: ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/ftp.suse.com/projects/OpenOffice.org/10.2-i386/2.1-0.1 They are prepared by Petr Mladek, I think. I haven't installed them yet, it's on my to-do list. Indeed I already had installed OpenOffice 2.1 rpms on openSUSE 10.2 by downloading and unpacking OOo_2.1.0_LinuxIntel_install_en-US.tar.gz directly from http://www.openoffice.org/ This wasn't the Novell Edition with the Novell extensions (mono, agfa fonts etc). After the suggestion from Peter Buschbacheropening yesterday, I search around without finding the OpenOffice project on opensuse.org. However, confusing enough (as previous discussed on this forum), I happened to find the OpenOffice 2.1 rpms instead on ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/ftp.suse.com/projects/ I've deleted my first installation above and replaced it a new installation by the latter 2.1 Novell editon. However, I became unsure if the OpenOffice Quickstarter is the same in the two editions. On the OpenOffice Edition, the icon for the OpenOffice Quickstarter menu at right on the Gnome panel, looked like the Writer icon as shown on http://www.openoffice.org/ No Quickstarter was automatically added on the Gnome panel during the Novell Edition installation (maybe this didn't happend automatically during the first installation either, but it bacame permanent on the panel). However there is a package OpenOffice_org-Quickstarter-1.0-514 which can be started with the command /opt/kde3/bin/oooqs Because this command temporary adds the previous (old) K-icon on the Gnome panel instead, I became unsure if this is the same quickstarter as used by the OpenOffice edition? (yes, I know Novell else has changed the OOo applications square icons to round icons). Wasn't there a Gnome OOo applet also? Rgds, Terje - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
On Monday 05 March 2007 10:52, Carlos E. R. wrote: ... There are some companies around producing bugless code. They spend like two years designing, and only about 6 month coding. It is indeed possible. Of course, they charge a lot for that class of code. I don't believe them. Unless the code is extremely simple. No matter how much you test, you cannot validly claim there are no bugs. Only that the bugs you tested for are not manifest under those tests. Randall Schulz - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Update policy, Seamonkey and OpenOffice.org
Terje J. Hanssen wrote: Marcus Meissner wrote: On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 03:44:49PM +0100, Terje J. Hanssen wrote: I'm wondering what is the policy and what decides which package versions that become updated to the current released openSUSE vs which versions that only become available on the factory and upcoming openSUSE version? I.e. Semonkey 1.0.99 = version 1.1b(eta) is still the version for both the current openSUSE 10.2 and on the Factory list. According to Mozilla/Seamonkey the 1.1 beta was released on November 8, 2006, the final 1.1 was released on Jan 18, 2007 and the current version 1.1.1 was released recently on February 28. Especially as 1.1b is a beta, I had waited an update for openSUSE 10.2. seamonkey 1.1.1 will be released for openSUSE 10.2 in the next week. OK, fine. I'm curious to see if Seamonkey Navigator scales web pages correctly now. Even 1.1 on Windows scales up my bank web pages so that horisontal scrollbar always is neccessary. For one or another reason it is neither possible to scale down these pages. In Firefox the same pages scale correctly. A little follow up: While the current OpenOffice version 2.1 for openSUSE 10.2 was found available on ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/projects/OpenOffice.org/ the corresponding project for Seamonkey does only contain the old 1.0.5 version on ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/projects/mozilla/seamonkey Where is really the updated Seamonkey 1.1.x project hosted? Rgds, Terje - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Update policy, Seamonkey and OpenOffice.org
On Monday 05 March 2007, Terje J. Hanssen wrote: the corresponding project for Seamonkey does only contain the old 1.0.5 version on ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/projects/mozilla/seamonkey Where is really the updated Seamonkey 1.1.x project hosted? http://software.opensuse.org/download/mozilla/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Are we supposed to be moving this fast?
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 08:39:20PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote: I've had a couple bug reports closed with WONTFIX, despite the reports being perfectly documented and diagnosed. To summarise the reasoning - your hardware is too old or buggy, so we can't be bothered. I operate a 7x24 production environment with a few thousand customers, so I understand the reasoning with respect to aiming for an SLES release. I have also not reopened any of those bugreports. But - is it right for openSUSE to move towards an environment where only recent hardware is supported properly? The hardware I'm talking about is datacentre-level servers (Compaq mostly), up to 7 or 8 years old. Do you have specific bug numbers showing the hardware you are having problems with? thanks, greg k-h - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Rajko M. wrote: On Sunday 04 March 2007 21:31, Sid Boyce wrote: Carlos E. R. wrote: [...] I agree with you and jdd: I just have never used IRC and I don't like it. I'm biased because till recently I did not have a permanent network connection, so irc was out of the question. Also, what I write I do slowly and thoughtfully, I can't correspond usefully on chat: I go back, read what I have just wrote and correct it. IRC is more like talking. How slow do you talk ? I suppose many non English speakers would think similarly. I am and I totally disagree ;P Also, I understand others will prefer chat: so let's have more than one method. More than one method to synchronize efforts ? As an English speaker, I never have liked IRC either, it along with Mobile texting remind me too much of the old clattering Reed Teletype machines of a bygone age, they were old hat from the day they were invented and worse still, built and shipped. Obviously you haven't used IRC often either ;) After all posts about IRC, I decided to make a list of my reasons: - One has to pick up pieces of conversation that belong to him in a mess on the screen which takes attention from the content. This is good suited for chat, but not for serious work. Wrong. That's extremely efficient at getting serious work done because it's interactive and you don't have to wait a day before getting a reply as with emails. You can get it immediately. - Once something is gone from the screen it can be found in the logs, which in effect lowers average speed substantially. Old messages are not important in a chat, so this doesn't make a problem, but in bug solving effort it will make problems. The point is to act on one item at a time. It's about being interactive, immediate, to get the right people into the channel and get the work done. - Time zones exist and it is another reason against IRC Yes but that's exactly the reasons for the deficiency of emails for certain use cases. You send a mail, you get a reply 8 hours later while you're sleeping, in the morning you reply, and 2 days later someone sends a much better solution or opinion. - I have to learn how to use it efficiently, starting with command set, and previous reasons don't help me to see why. You just have to type the text. No special command set to know unless you're a channel operator. There was a comment that email will be essentially repeating what is done on bugzilla. Yes, it will be, but using medium where threading is supported which will give us easy way to see who is replying to what, which thread goes in right direction. Bugzilla messages are not intended for discussions, and reading beyond first few posts becomes quite annoying experience. But maybe the point about the triage is precisely to get it done quickly, not spend weeks to discuss it -- exactly as on bugzilla or using emails. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFF7Jkzr3NMWliFcXcRAu8rAKC74BQGQMpfMT6ug2rkfZNwwruS0wCgp7wE NKq/GPuZ0A22bj4/qTn7rwQ= =fEKJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Update policy, Seamonkey and OpenOffice.org
Scott Jones wrote: On Monday 05 March 2007, Terje J. Hanssen wrote: the corresponding project for Seamonkey does only contain the old 1.0.5 version on ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/projects/mozilla/seamonkey Where is really the updated Seamonkey 1.1.x project hosted? http://software.opensuse.org/download/mozilla/ Thank you for the link. I've already upgraded to Seamonkey 1.1.1 and more. Rgds, Terje - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Update policy, Seamonkey and OpenOffice.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 15:07 +0100, Terje J. Hanssen wrote: ... No Quickstarter was automatically added on the Gnome panel during the Novell Edition installation (maybe this didn't happend automatically during the first installation either, but it bacame permanent on the panel). There is no ooqs file listed in the repodata/* files, so you can't have it in the panel. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7K0OtTMYHG2NR9URAtNqAJ9WC2ano+ADlpEq+AaKmVGxXCGRGQCaAleF XGP/s+Q9223uCyeYgIg1GII= =Z+Yt -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 23:27 +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote: Wrong. That's extremely efficient at getting serious work done because it's interactive and you don't have to wait a day before getting a reply as with emails. You can get it immediately. If both people are sitting at their computers, both email or chat (or news or whatever) arrive instantly. The point of non chat methods is precissely to facilitate people with diferent timetables to participate. However, if the needed people for a certain task are available at the same time, by all means, use chat, or telephone, or video conference: whatever. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7K6OtTMYHG2NR9URAqJGAJ4pmBYDwpWmGcVr8ZAyyriwC0AztgCfVGjS OhTMXNYhLwV/NaFLtSYmICM= =5VDr -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 11:35 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote: On Monday 05 March 2007 10:52, Carlos E. R. wrote: ... There are some companies around producing bugless code. They spend like two years designing, and only about 6 month coding. It is indeed possible. Of course, they charge a lot for that class of code. I don't believe them. Unless the code is extremely simple. No matter how much you test, you cannot validly claim there are no bugs. Only that the bugs you tested for are not manifest under those tests. You don't believe an IEEE report? It was published on one of their magazines, the Spectrum, I think, not over two years ago. I might still have it around somewhere. They don't rely on testing to get it done: it is correct by design. They don't write a single line of code till it is fully designed, and I mean fully. And not simple software, nor cheap, either. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7LFJtTMYHG2NR9URArq1AJ4vfL4k3pEmnloMTRa9/DEZLXcrFwCdGE9V mT20dKpzZ3gHjtrdZFblwVk= =d/bY -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
On Monday 05 March 2007 05:20, Carlos E. R. wrote: An alternative, would be a private news server (with auth). Novell site has one, if I remember correctly. Yes. It is news://support-forums.novell.com for instance, group news://support-forums.novell.com/opensuse.org.suse-linux.support.development-build might be good place. It is almost unused, so no one will be bugged with people that will come and discuss bugs. It is single server so it will act fast, just as IRC. News server will keep messages so it is possible to see development from any computer. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
On Monday 05 March 2007 16:27, Pascal Bleser wrote: Rajko M. wrote: ... After all posts about IRC, I decided to make a list of my reasons: - One has to pick up pieces of conversation that belong to him in a mess on the screen which takes attention from the content. This is good suited for chat, but not for serious work. Wrong. That's extremely efficient at getting serious work done because it's interactive and you don't have to wait a day before getting a reply as with emails. You can get it immediately. Efficient if: 1) you have all involved people present. 2) problem is not complex ie. doesn't need lengthy preparation, 3) troubleshooting process has complex structure where next step depends on results of previous, and description of all branches is impractical. Though, my point was about screen that is not easy to read, and that will diminish efficiency in any case. Luckilly that alone doesn't make a total, so I can agree that they are efficient in some cases. - Once something is gone from the screen it can be found in the logs, which in effect lowers average speed substantially. Old messages are not important in a chat, so this doesn't make a problem, but in bug solving effort it will make problems. The point is to act on one item at a time. It's about being interactive, immediate, to get the right people into the channel and get the work done. It is still problem as discussion can be longer, and important info can fly off the screen. My guess is that it doesn't happen often, so one can have time to search in session logs if necessary. - Time zones exist and it is another reason against IRC Yes but that's exactly the reasons for the deficiency of emails for certain use cases. You send a mail, you get a reply 8 hours later while you're sleeping, in the morning you reply, and 2 days later someone sends a much better solution or opinion. IRC will never give a chance to one that really has advice to read about your problem and send message 2 days later. This actually confirms that email or newsgroups have essential advantage in this respect. - I have to learn how to use it efficiently, starting with command set, and previous reasons don't help me to see why. You just have to type the text. No special command set to know unless you're a channel operator. I tried that on single status meeting that I was able to attend as I was on vacation, and until I type my comment/question, there is few lines between. Not good. Go back and try to type the name to whom you talk. In the meantime there is even more lines between. There was a comment that email will be essentially repeating what is done on bugzilla. Yes, it will be, but using medium where threading is supported which will give us easy way to see who is replying to what, which thread goes in right direction. Bugzilla messages are not intended for discussions, and reading beyond first few posts becomes quite annoying experience. But maybe the point about the triage is precisely to get it done quickly, not spend weeks to discuss it -- exactly as on bugzilla or using emails. Quickly will not help if it is not prepared. I can't be tricked with status meetings where people come prepared for questions in agenda. If similar will be applied to bug smash fest, than it will be efficient. It means that bugs has to be sorted by hardware and software categories and than published as a preparation for the event making possible to prepare yourself for the event. On the user side it would be advantage to have hardware and software data about computer collected in the same fashion as it is presented on the list, so that people can find what bugs they can help with. This of course can be completely automated trough one script that will collect data, compare to downloaded list of existing bugs, and produce list of bugs that one can help with. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Are we supposed to be moving this fast?
Greg KH wrote: On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 08:39:20PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote: I've had a couple bug reports closed with WONTFIX, despite the reports being perfectly documented and diagnosed. To summarise the reasoning - your hardware is too old or buggy, so we can't be bothered. I operate a 7x24 production environment with a few thousand customers, so I understand the reasoning with respect to aiming for an SLES release. I have also not reopened any of those bugreports. But - is it right for openSUSE to move towards an environment where only recent hardware is supported properly? The hardware I'm talking about is datacentre-level servers (Compaq mostly), up to 7 or 8 years old. Do you have specific bug numbers showing the hardware you are having problems with? Hi Greg, here's a couple of examples: DMI-bug: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=204147 ISA-support: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=231191 Having two graphics cards: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=177621 None of these are showstoppers, there are known work-arounds - I just thought I was beginning to see a trend. I know I've got another one around to do with shared IDE IRQs and libata or something like that. I can't find it right now, but that one's more important. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- ENIDAN Technologies GmbH - managed email-security. Is _your_ business under attack? http://www.spamchek.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
