Re: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD!
As I mentioned before in a previous posting, the Orion team will continue their work on the Orion product, partners will do the support. Support will in the future be the "milking cow" ( don't know if that one translates well into english, where you get the money...), and there you have the business modell. At least that's how I interpreted Karl Avedals speech. Johan - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 12:53 AM Subject: Re: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! I really hope that Orion is released into the open-source community if they're going to tank as a business. I never thought of that. I guess the real question may be: "What is Orion's/Ironflare's business model?" Taking a wild guess, not based on any first hand knowledge/contact/experience, the 'problem' may be that orion's developer's want to continue programming and not become consultants, support technicians, etc... Which would be great to have quality developers on the project full time, but this seems contrary to a lot of the service models that are out there now. A lot of companies now repackage open source and get paid on service/consulting. Perhaps they need a quality partner or need to be bought out (maybe macromedia should have bought them out instead of buying allaire)...who knows...I'm not an expert in this field as I'm sure my views have proved. So I may be way off base. I'm just an avid java developer with a small, nimble company that likes to develop and utilize small, quick, and well-written software. (did you also ever notice that orion seems to be at most h! ! ! alf the size of other major app servers?) By the way, if some help is needed to host (or provide an alternative to) orionsupport, please let me know. I know the boss here; I'm sure we could work something out. I think a lot of people would help out in this department (including myself), especially if it was open source. I already have a kind of how-to in the works for SSL using chained certificates from Entrust.net. David
Re: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD!
"cash cow" actually, but close enough. :) thanks for the update! - Original Message - From: "Johan Fredriksson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 12:47 AM Subject: Re: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! As I mentioned before in a previous posting, the Orion team will continue their work on the Orion product, partners will do the support. Support will in the future be the "milking cow" ( don't know if that one translates well into english, where you get the money...), and there you have the business modell. At least that's how I interpreted Karl Avedals speech. Johan
RE: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD!
The problem Orion will face is that the open source and low cost competition will be heating up, and as the quality improves, so will the competition. Who should they watch out for? 1.Resin (www.caucho.com). When they finally get an EJB server out, it will be set to integrate with Resin and have a competitive price (around $2000). 2. Jboss (www.jboss.org) and Enhydra Enterprise (www.enhydra.org), which are actively enhancing and developing their application servers. 3. Jonas (www.evidian.com/jonas) and openejb (http://openejb.exolab.org/), where the latter is making partnerships with Apache, etc. Notice I did not mention Unify, which also has a low cost entry, but they still need to get their financial act together. So why do I bring these items to light? So that Orion is aware of the competition, and like the rabbit, doesn't take a nap, but keeps moving forward, as the turtles get better prepared. -Original Message- From: Johan Fredriksson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 2:47 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! As I mentioned before in a previous posting, the Orion team will continue their work on the Orion product, partners will do the support. Support will in the future be the "milking cow" ( don't know if that one translates well into english, where you get the money...), and there you have the business modell. At least that's how I interpreted Karl Avedals speech. Johan - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 12:53 AM Subject: Re: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! I really hope that Orion is released into the open-source community if they're going to tank as a business. I never thought of that. I guess the real question may be: "What is Orion's/Ironflare's business model?" Taking a wild guess, not based on any first hand knowledge/contact/experience, the 'problem' may be that orion's developer's want to continue programming and not become consultants, support technicians, etc... Which would be great to have quality developers on the project full time, but this seems contrary to a lot of the service models that are out there now. A lot of companies now repackage open source and get paid on service/consulting. Perhaps they need a quality partner or need to be bought out (maybe macromedia should have bought them out instead of buying allaire)...who knows...I'm not an expert in this field as I'm sure my views have proved. So I may be way off base. I'm just an avid java developer with a small, nimble company that likes to develop and utilize small, quick, and well-written software. (did you also ever notice that orion seems to be at most h! ! ! alf the size of other major app servers?) By the way, if some help is needed to host (or provide an alternative to) orionsupport, please let me know. I know the boss here; I'm sure we could work something out. I think a lot of people would help out in this department (including myself), especially if it was open source. I already have a kind of how-to in the works for SSL using chained certificates from Entrust.net. David
RE: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD!
How are these any more 'competitive' than all the other commercial application server vendors out there? While it's hugely unfashionable to say so, there's nothing 'magical' or 'special' about open source. We could sit here all day and name 'competitors' to Orion. Some will fail, and hell, some might beat it one day. I don't think the Orion team live in a bubble and are merrily oblivious to the fact that they do have competitors, and must stay ahead of the game and differentiate themselves. Some of the products you mention are at least as old as (if not older) than Orion. I for one won't be holding my breath for this 'catching up' you're promising will happen. Hani On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: The problem Orion will face is that the open source and low cost competition will be heating up, and as the quality improves, so will the competition. Who should they watch out for? 1.Resin (www.caucho.com). When they finally get an EJB server out, it will be set to integrate with Resin and have a competitive price (around $2000). 2. Jboss (www.jboss.org) and Enhydra Enterprise (www.enhydra.org), which are actively enhancing and developing their application servers. 3. Jonas (www.evidian.com/jonas) and openejb (http://openejb.exolab.org/), where the latter is making partnerships with Apache, etc. Notice I did not mention Unify, which also has a low cost entry, but they still need to get their financial act together. So why do I bring these items to light? So that Orion is aware of the competition, and like the rabbit, doesn't take a nap, but keeps moving forward, as the turtles get better prepared. -Original Message- From: Johan Fredriksson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 2:47 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! As I mentioned before in a previous posting, the Orion team will continue their work on the Orion product, partners will do the support. Support will in the future be the "milking cow" ( don't know if that one translates well into english, where you get the money...), and there you have the business modell. At least that's how I interpreted Karl Avedals speech. Johan - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 12:53 AM Subject: Re: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! I really hope that Orion is released into the open-source community if they're going to tank as a business. I never thought of that. I guess the real question may be: "What is Orion's/Ironflare's business model?" Taking a wild guess, not based on any first hand knowledge/contact/experience, the 'problem' may be that orion's developer's want to continue programming and not become consultants, support technicians, etc... Which would be great to have quality developers on the project full time, but this seems contrary to a lot of the service models that are out there now. A lot of companies now repackage open source and get paid on service/consulting. Perhaps they need a quality partner or need to be bought out (maybe macromedia should have bought them out instead of buying allaire)...who knows...I'm not an expert in this field as I'm sure my views have proved. So I may be way off base. I'm just an avid java developer with a small, nimble company that likes to develop and utilize small, quick, and well-written software. (did you also ever notice that orion seems to be at most h! ! ! alf the size of other major app servers?) By the way, if some help is needed to host (or provide an alternative to) orionsupport, please let me know. I know the boss here; I'm sure we could work something out. I think a lot of people would help out in this department (including myself), especially if it was open source. I already have a kind of how-to in the works for SSL using chained certificates from Entrust.net. David
RE: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! - What we have here is a failure to communicate ...
Mike: I do agree with all the concern about Orion's lack of response. I think that three good developers created a great product, but didn't give much thought into how to market, support, and document it, should it reach a good level of success. I suppose we should ask this question: Is there any other ways we can help the Orion team? Perhaps we can get a documentation manual effort together, like the Jboss folks are doing. I know that the folks at www.orionsupport.com and www.jollem.com are doing a great job. And yes, I agree that Orion is way ahead of the open source efforts, such as Jboss, Enhydra, Jonas, and openEJb at this point in time (not that I don't root for them, since I want them to also get to a point to give the big guys some concern). So Orion, if we as a community can help you, tell us how. Randy -Original Message- From: Mike Sick To: Orion-Interest Sent: 4/12/01 4:20 PM Subject: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! - What we have here is a failure to communicate ... Hey Randy, I think that most people who bothered to join this list want Orion to succeed and I can see how you might have taken David's words badly. There's no doubt that there are a significant number of Orion fans that are very dedicated (me included). It's natural, however, to want resolution and orionserver's lack of progress in the last few months should raise significant concern. Add 'a failure to communicate' to the mix and concern will turn to frustration, desperation, and worse. Orion's strength as a product has allowed a small but significant developer community to emerge around it. The activity on this list, the various support sites, and the strong word of mouth growth of Orion are all signs that developers care and will support the product. But it's impossible to help if you don't know what's wrong. Mike Sick - Original Message - From: "Kemp Randy-W18971" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 3:55 PM Subject: RE: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! David: Most people on this list are fans of Orion and are rooting for them to succeed. Personally, I root for the small guys, like Orion, Jboss, and Jonas, only because this technology should be available to everyone, and not just companies with deep pockets. Orion is the only commercial server under $5000 that is any good, and able to go toe to toe with BEA on several points. I wouldn't want them to go out of business, and would much rather Orion became an open source project before that happens. It has too much potential to fold. Randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:34 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! I've been watching Orion for awhile using/testing. It so close to being ideal for me and my clients and we are ready to buy. But development seems to have stopped lately. Updates to the web site are virtually non-existant (ie ORION 1.2 released on main site)...meanwhile we are up to 1.4.5 since Jan 22. I am happy with its current state. I just sucessfully tested SSL with it. I haven't done much in terms of EJB yet, but my experiences with orion still have been great. SO ORION - Please get your act together. Or if you must go out of businessdo it soonso I can look at enhydra/weblogic/websphere again...I haven't looked at them in awhile because I have been happy with orion. It's for your own good. You obviously have some great programmers who developed this product. They should either keep working on it, or find another product to work on. Best of luck David
Rise from the dead
From: Kemp Randy-W18971 To: 'Mike Sick '; 'Orion-Interest ' Cc: Subject: RE: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! - What we have here is a failure to communicate ... Sent: 4/13/01 9:22 AM Importance: Normal Mike: I do agree with all the concern about Orion's lack of response. I think that three good developers created a great product, but didn't give much thought into how to market, support, and document it, should it reach a good level of success. I suppose we should ask this question: Is there any other ways we can help the Orion team? Perhaps we can get a documentation manual effort together, like the Jboss folks are doing. I know that the folks at www.orionsupport.com and www.jollem.com are doing a great job. And yes, I agree that Orion is way ahead of the open source efforts, such as Jboss, Enhydra, Jonas, and openEJb at this point in time (not that I don't root for them, since I want them to also get to a point to give the big guys some concern). So Orion, if we as a community can help you, tell us how. Randy -Original Message- From: Mike Sick To: Orion-Interest Sent: 4/12/01 4:20 PM Subject: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! - What we have here is a failure to communicate ... Hey Randy, I think that most people who bothered to join this list want Orion to succeed and I can see how you might have taken David's words badly. There's no doubt that there are a significant number of Orion fans that are very dedicated (me included). It's natural, however, to want resolution and orionserver's lack of progress in the last few months should raise significant concern. Add 'a failure to communicate' to the mix and concern will turn to frustration, desperation, and worse. Orion's strength as a product has allowed a small but significant developer community to emerge around it. The activity on this list, the various support sites, and the strong word of mouth growth of Orion are all signs that developers care and will support the product. But it's impossible to help if you don't know what's wrong. Mike Sick - Original Message - From: "Kemp Randy-W18971" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 3:55 PM Subject: RE: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! David: Most people on this list are fans of Orion and are rooting for them to succeed. Personally, I root for the small guys, like Orion, Jboss, and Jonas, only because this technology should be available to everyone, and not just companies with deep pockets. Orion is the only commercial server under $5000 that is any good, and able to go toe to toe with BEA on several points. I wouldn't want them to go out of business, and would much rather Orion became an open source project before that happens. It has too much potential to fold. Randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:34 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! I've been watching Orion for awhile using/testing. It so close to being ideal for me and my clients and we are ready to buy. But development seems to have stopped lately. Updates to the web site are virtually non-existant (ie ORION 1.2 released on main site)...meanwhile we are up to 1.4.5 since Jan 22. I am happy with its current state. I just sucessfully tested SSL with it. I haven't done much in terms of EJB yet, but my experiences with orion still have been great. SO ORION - Please get your act together. Or if you must go out of businessdo it soonso I can look at enhydra/weblogic/websphere again...I haven't looked at them in awhile because I have been happy with orion. It's for your own good. You obviously have some great programmers who developed this product. They should either keep working on it, or find another product to work on. Best of luck David
ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD!
I've been watching Orion for awhile using/testing. It so close to being ideal for me and my clients and we are ready to buy. But development seems to have stopped lately. Updates to the web site are virtually non-existant (ie ORION 1.2 released on main site)...meanwhile we are up to 1.4.5 since Jan 22. I am happy with its current state. I just sucessfully tested SSL with it. I haven't done much in terms of EJB yet, but my experiences with orion still have been great. SO ORION - Please get your act together. Or if you must go out of businessdo it soonso I can look at enhydra/weblogic/websphere again...I haven't looked at them in awhile because I have been happy with orion. It's for your own good. You obviously have some great programmers who developed this product. They should either keep working on it, or find another product to work on. Best of luck David
RE: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD!
David: Most people on this list are fans of Orion and are rooting for them to succeed. Personally, I root for the small guys, like Orion, Jboss, and Jonas, only because this technology should be available to everyone, and not just companies with deep pockets. Orion is the only commercial server under $5000 that is any good, and able to go toe to toe with BEA on several points. I wouldn't want them to go out of business, and would much rather Orion became an open source project before that happens. It has too much potential to fold. Randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:34 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! I've been watching Orion for awhile using/testing. It so close to being ideal for me and my clients and we are ready to buy. But development seems to have stopped lately. Updates to the web site are virtually non-existant (ie ORION 1.2 released on main site)...meanwhile we are up to 1.4.5 since Jan 22. I am happy with its current state. I just sucessfully tested SSL with it. I haven't done much in terms of EJB yet, but my experiences with orion still have been great. SO ORION - Please get your act together. Or if you must go out of businessdo it soonso I can look at enhydra/weblogic/websphere again...I haven't looked at them in awhile because I have been happy with orion. It's for your own good. You obviously have some great programmers who developed this product. They should either keep working on it, or find another product to work on. Best of luck David
Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD!
Boy, do I ever second those sentiments. So far, we've had *great* luck with Orion, including CMP EJBs/JSP/taglibs/filters... I've worked with the commercial servers, Enhydra, and jBoss as well, and I really hope that Orion is released into the open-source community if they're going to tank as a business. My impression is that this is a well-written product, particularly in terms of speed. It would be shame to see it disappear. By the way, if some help is needed to host (or provide an alternative to) orionsupport, please let me know. I know the boss here; I'm sure we could work something out. Thanks, Rian -- Rian Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 11:34 AM Subject: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! I've been watching Orion for awhile using/testing. It so close to being ideal for me and my clients and we are ready to buy. But development seems to have stopped lately. Updates to the web site are virtually non-existant (ie ORION 1.2 released on main site)...meanwhile we are up to 1.4.5 since Jan 22. I am happy with its current state. I just sucessfully tested SSL with it. I haven't done much in terms of EJB yet, but my experiences with orion still have been great. SO ORION - Please get your act together. Or if you must go out of businessdo it soonso I can look at enhydra/weblogic/websphere again...I haven't looked at them in awhile because I have been happy with orion. It's for your own good. You obviously have some great programmers who developed this product. They should either keep working on it, or find another product to work on. Best of luck David
Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! - What we have here is a failure to communicate ...
Hey Randy, I think that most people who bothered to join this list want Orion to succeed and I can see how you might have taken David's words badly. There's no doubt that there are a significant number of Orion fans that are very dedicated (me included). It's natural, however, to want resolution and orionserver's lack of progress in the last few months should raise significant concern. Add 'a failure to communicate' to the mix and concern will turn to frustration, desperation, and worse. Orion's strength as a product has allowed a small but significant developer community to emerge around it. The activity on this list, the various support sites, and the strong word of mouth growth of Orion are all signs that developers care and will support the product. But it's impossible to help if you don't know what's wrong. Mike Sick - Original Message - From: "Kemp Randy-W18971" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 3:55 PM Subject: RE: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! David: Most people on this list are fans of Orion and are rooting for them to succeed. Personally, I root for the small guys, like Orion, Jboss, and Jonas, only because this technology should be available to everyone, and not just companies with deep pockets. Orion is the only commercial server under $5000 that is any good, and able to go toe to toe with BEA on several points. I wouldn't want them to go out of business, and would much rather Orion became an open source project before that happens. It has too much potential to fold. Randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:34 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD! I've been watching Orion for awhile using/testing. It so close to being ideal for me and my clients and we are ready to buy. But development seems to have stopped lately. Updates to the web site are virtually non-existant (ie ORION 1.2 released on main site)...meanwhile we are up to 1.4.5 since Jan 22. I am happy with its current state. I just sucessfully tested SSL with it. I haven't done much in terms of EJB yet, but my experiences with orion still have been great. SO ORION - Please get your act together. Or if you must go out of businessdo it soonso I can look at enhydra/weblogic/websphere again...I haven't looked at them in awhile because I have been happy with orion. It's for your own good. You obviously have some great programmers who developed this product. They should either keep working on it, or find another product to work on. Best of luck David
RE: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD!
I just got a message from bugzila saying one of the bugs I submitted was fixed. This must mean that they are still updating the product.
Re: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD!
I really hope that Orion is released into the open-source community if they're going to tank as a business. I never thought of that. I guess the real question may be: "What is Orion's/Ironflare's business model?" Taking a wild guess, not based on any first hand knowledge/contact/experience, the 'problem' may be that orion's developer's want to continue programming and not become consultants, support technicians, etc... Which would be great to have quality developers on the project full time, but this seems contrary to a lot of the service models that are out there now. A lot of companies now repackage open source and get paid on service/consulting. Perhaps they need a quality partner or need to be bought out (maybe macromedia should have bought them out instead of buying allaire)...who knows...I'm not an expert in this field as I'm sure my views have proved. So I may be way off base. I'm just an avid java developer with a small, nimble company that likes to develop and utilize small, quick, and well-written software. (did you also ever notice that orion seems to be at most h! ! ! alf the size of other major app servers?) By the way, if some help is needed to host (or provide an alternative to) orionsupport, please let me know. I know the boss here; I'm sure we could work something out. I think a lot of people would help out in this department (including myself), especially if it was open source. I already have a kind of how-to in the works for SSL using chained certificates from Entrust.net. David
Re: Re: ORION RISE FROM THE DEAD!
David, nothing personal, I'm just hanging my reply off yours as it's the latest one in this thread... BUT some of us are very bored of this thread popping up every few weeks. Sure, Orion hasn't released a new version in a couple of months now (I think), and I'm as desperately eager for 1.4.8 as anyone here. Why does this always translate to 'Orion is tanking'? It WOULD be lovely if the Orion team were more active in their posts here, if nothing else, people would get that warm fuzzy feeling that is obviously so important. So in an ideal situation, we'd all get the best of both worlds. A kick ass product, and warm fuzzies all round (well, and a much better support infrastructure!). But as has been said before, I'm in the group that of those 3 things, would choose the first. Hani On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I really hope that Orion is released into the open-source community if they're going to tank as a business. I never thought of that. I guess the real question may be: "What is Orion's/Ironflare's business model?" Taking a wild guess, not based on any first hand knowledge/contact/experience, the 'problem' may be that orion's developer's want to continue programming and not become consultants, support technicians, etc... Which would be great to have quality developers on the project full time, but this seems contrary to a lot of the service models that are out there now. A lot of companies now repackage open source and get paid on service/consulting. Perhaps they need a quality partner or need to be bought out (maybe macromedia should have bought them out instead of buying allaire)...who knows...I'm not an expert in this field as I'm sure my views have proved. So I may be way off base. I'm just an avid java developer with a small, nimble company that likes to develop and utilize small, quick, and well-written software. (did you also ever notice that orion seems to be at most! h! ! ! alf the size of other major app servers?) By the way, if some help is needed to host (or provide an alternative to) orionsupport, please let me know. I know the boss here; I'm sure we could work something out. I think a lot of people would help out in this department (including myself), especially if it was open source. I already have a kind of how-to in the works for SSL using chained certificates from Entrust.net. David
