RE: [ozmidwifery] Response from Today Show

[Wayne and Cas]

Title: Message



Ouch! 
Great letter Dierdre! Seems Tracey is taking things a tad too personally. As a 
journo she undestands once things are in the public domain they are open for 
comment and has no right to say we hijacked anything... we are all mothers and 
midwives and all are entitled to express our opinions when we see an injustice 
being promoted.
 
I 
don't think anyone here is having a go at the mother... we all just feel she is 
one more victim of the system. I feel for the mother and I am sure that there 
are some who have criticised her choice even though she had limited 
understanding of her previous complication and how that does or does not relate 
to her recent pregnancy. It is the doctor that p$%$%&ed me off and I think 
he is the one who should take the blame for promoting C-sections for no good 
reason. After all it was him who said she is having this caesar because of her 
previous caesar... interesting that nobody picked up that fact (at C9) that she 
was full term this pregnancy and yet her PROM had happened at 36 weeks previous 
pregnancy. Two entirely different situations.
 
I 
received criticism for my second caesar even though I knew I had made the most 
informed choice I could and I can tell you that was just as depressing as what 
obs had said to me previous pregnancy.
 
Cheers,
 
Cas.
 
 
Cas, Wayne, Liam and Daniel 
McCullough
mcfamily@casmccullough.com
www.casmccullough.com
 

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dierdre 
  BowmanSent: Tuesday, 9 December 2003 7:32 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [ozmidwifery] Response from 
  Today Show Importance: High
  Seems if you leave your letters till later you 
  get better bites.  This was Tracey Grimshaws response to my email. It's a 
  beauty.
  Dierdre B.
  - Original Message - 
  From: TCN Today 
  Show 
  To: Dierdre Bowman 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:11 PM
  Subject: RE: Live Caesarean
  
  
  Dear 
  Dierdre,
  You have put very 
  reasoned arguments to support your contention that CS births are 
  overused.
  It is an argument 
  that we have explored and aired on our program many times in recent years, and 
  during our program last week, we spoke to a midwife on that very 
  point.
  You do not, however, 
  support your accusation that we “did nothing but tell women it is okay to have 
  cs for no medical reason”.
  First, the program 
  was about birth…period. 
  Specifically about 
  the arrival of the 20 millionth Australian, however and whomever that 
  was.
  It was NOT A 
  POLITICAL STATEMENT ON BIRTHING METHODS…though we acknowledged the 
  debate.
  The special moment 
  was young Tom Cooper’s arrival into the world…and to be honest, it was truly 
  wonderful…regardless of by which orifice he emerged.
  Of course it would 
  have been impossible to schedule a vaginal delivery “live” during a 3 hour 
  window. Babies don’t work to deadlines.
  And it was the “live 
  broadcast” element that we wanted to share with our viewers…the excitement of 
  seeing something happen for the first time, before anyone else has seen it, 
  before your eyes.
  Tom was going to 
  arrive cs regardless of whether we were there or not…we simply took an amazing 
  opportunity.
  It is a shame that 
  the extreme end of the anti cs debate has sought to hijack that moment for its 
  own end.
  But back to your 
  accusation: we explained repeatedly that Tom’s mum Liane had a history of 
  complex reproductive problems.
  Her first baby was 
  born by cs several days after her waters broke and doctors were unable to 
  induce labour.
  She sought the best 
  medical advice she could get, and made an informed decision not to have that 
  happen again.
  While I respect 
  opinions like yours I have been shocked and horrified by a minority of people 
  who have accused her of being “less than a mother”;”too posh to push” 
  etc.
  This rush to judge 
  others simply because they have the temerity to make a choice that differs 
  with one’s own is an ugly side of human nature.
  Opinions are a 
  right…they should not be a weapon.
  We did not tell 
  anyone it was okay to have a cs for no medical reason. 
  But frankly I do not 
  presume the right to tell anyone how they should make one of the biggest 
  decisions of their lives. Nor to judge them on it.
  Regards,
  Tracy 
  Grimshaw
   
   
   
  -Original 
  Message-From: Dierdre 
  Bowman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 9 December 2003 12:24 
  PMTo: TCN Today 
  ShowSubject: Live 
  CaesareanImportance: 
  High
   
  
  Over the past few days I have 
  tried to come to grips with your show on the live caesarean birth.  I am 
  a midwife who constantly sees women who have been devastated by their 
  experience with caesarean section (C/S).  While I agree that for some 
  women 10-15% C/S is an absolutely necessary and life saving event, it is an 
  outrage that this story has gone to 

Re: [ozmidwifery] I've had a baby (long)

[Jackie Kitschke]

Dear Sylvia,
I apologize to you and any woman who has had a LUSCS if you 
think I was being superior because I gave birth to Ena naturally. That was the 
only natural thing to happen to the both of us for the ensuing 10 
days.
I have worked with women who have laboured and then given 
birth via LUSCS. 
Also with women who have "laboured" for their whole 
pregnancy with the decision of what to do following a previous LUSCS and end up 
deciding to have a section when they don't go into labour.
I could have used my words better but when I saw birth 
portrayed as a nice, tidy and organised affair with the mother and father at the 
periphery of the event I thought of all of those people watching who think LUSCS 
is safer, better, less painful. (Then to parade an obviously tired family in 
front of the cameras this morning was the icing on the cake.)
Jackie
 
 
 
- Original Message - 

  From: 
  jayne 

  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:33 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] I've had a 
  baby (long)
  
  Oh Sylvia, you are right but I honestly don't 
  think that Jackie meant to imply anything :(   She is obviously on a 
  wonderful high after the birth of her baby.
   
  Jayne
   
   
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Sylvia 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 
11:04 AM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] I've had a 
baby (long)



  
  

  Congratulations on the birth of 
  your daughter.  What a happy story that was.
  However, whilst I in no way support the Today show 
  story and a 'live' caesarean was just terrible and sensationalist 
  television you finish your letter with the comment 'that's not 
  childbirth'.  And I agree with this - it's not vaginal birth, but 
  an operative 'delivery'.   
   
  What upset me was your closing comments which I felt 
  smacked of a superiority in having done it 'naturally' .  This 
  type of belief only adds to the pain and confusion of those women who 
  have been subjected to caesareans.  As a neonatal nurse and a 
  midwife I often see mothers who, rightly or wrongly, have had an 
  operative delivery followed by their baby requiring admission to a 
  tertiary neonatal unit.  Not only as these women having to cope 
  with the stress of a sick newborn but they must also cope with their 
  perceived 'failure' to deliver naturally.  It's devastating to 
  witness and I would like to remind those of us fortunate enough 
  to have experienced a wonderful birth such as described here that 
  women whose children are born via LUSCS are already 
  mourning, and do not need others implying that they are somehow lesser 
  mothers because of this operation.
  Thank 
you.Vance & Edwina 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

  
  
  
  

  
  Dear Jackie, 
  Andrew and Ena,
   
  Congratulations 
  to you all!  What a wonderful 
  birth story, I can see the smile on your face from here!!. I am so happy for you, especially Jackie whom I 
  have met and always admired as a midwifery role model and a mentor during 
  my grad program.  Lots of love 
  Edwina J 
  
   
  -Original 
  Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jackie 
  KitschkeSent: Friday, 
  December 05, 2003 12:05 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [ozmidwifery] I've had a 
  baby (long)
   
  
  Dear 
  all,
  
  I have been lurking on and off over 
  the last few months with a midwife and consumer view as I have given birth 
  myself to a girl, Ena, on the 19.11.03. Having loosely followed the thread 
  of fetal hearts, Today show etc along with my own experience I have a 
  couple of comments.
  
  We had Ena at home and employed the 
  services of the wonderful Roz Donnellan-Fernandez. She came and saw me 
  about 5 times antenatally and would be here for a couple of hours so that 
  even though I didn't see her lots of times (the frequency was my choice) I 
  had plenty of time to convey to her how I felt, what outside factors may 
  influence me etc and my husband Andrew had plenty of time to ask questions 
  etc. 
  
  We also invited a midwifery student, 
  Jessica, to share our experience and so the four of us welcomed Ena 
  into the world on a stormy evening.
  
  I used the lessons taught to me by 
  the many women I have met over the years including telling no-one our due 
  date (handy as we went a week over), restricting visitors till 2 weeks, 
  (handy as we had some postnatal issues), preparing lots of food before 
  hand and taking plenty 

Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Kristy Robertson]

Hi Denise,
I actually talked about this 
topic and informed choice in an essay for one of my subjects at the beginning of 
the year (for the Grad. Dip. of Mid.), in which i did quite well in. Where I 
have done my placements this year and will work next year as a grad (rural 
Victoria), the management of third stage is only touched upon in antenatal 
classes, and women are given a clear indication of which method is preferable. 
No detail is given as to what physiological third stage involves. When the time 
comes after the birth of the baby, consent is assumed rather than sought and the 
women are told 'here's a little injection i'm going to give in your leg now to 
help the placenta come away.' It seems as though it is presumed that women 
choose to have active management of third stage because they choose to have 
their baby in this hospital. The only cases i have witnessed where synt is not 
given is where the woman is well educated and informed and states on her birth 
plan, on arrival to the ward, and after  the birth of her baby, that she 
does not want an active third stage.
Regards
Kristy

-Original Message-From: 
Denise Hynd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
Tuesday, December 09, 2003 3:00 PMSubject: [ozmidwifery] 
3rdStage Feedback 
Dear Ozmid list,
I need to know or get some feedback about the 
prevelance of physiological third stage in Australia.
That is are women being offered the option of 
birthing their placentas with out an oxytocic injection in Australain 
hospitals 
and is it standard practice to give women 
informed choice about this in homebirths (as I understand it) 
Personal expereinces of situations and protocols would be 
appreciated
 
Thank you 
Denise 

Re: [ozmidwifery] I've had a baby (long)

[jayne]

Oh Sylvia, you are right but I honestly don't think 
that Jackie meant to imply anything :(   She is obviously on a 
wonderful high after the birth of her baby.
 
Jayne
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Sylvia 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 11:04 
  AM
  Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] I've had a 
  baby (long)
  
  
  


  
Congratulations on the birth of 
your daughter.  What a happy story that was.
However, whilst I in no way support the Today show 
story and a 'live' caesarean was just terrible and sensationalist 
television you finish your letter with the comment 'that's not 
childbirth'.  And I agree with this - it's not vaginal birth, but 
an operative 'delivery'.   
 
What upset me was your closing comments which I felt 
smacked of a superiority in having done it 'naturally' .  This type 
of belief only adds to the pain and confusion of those women who have 
been subjected to caesareans.  As a neonatal nurse and a midwife I 
often see mothers who, rightly or wrongly, have had an operative 
delivery followed by their baby requiring admission to a tertiary 
neonatal unit.  Not only as these women having to cope with the 
stress of a sick newborn but they must also cope with their perceived 
'failure' to deliver naturally.  It's devastating to witness and I 
would like to remind those of us fortunate enough to have 
experienced a wonderful birth such as described here that 
women whose children are born via LUSCS are already mourning, 
and do not need others implying that they are somehow lesser mothers 
because of this operation.
Thank 
  you.Vance & Edwina 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
  






Dear Jackie, Andrew 
and Ena,
 
Congratulations to 
you all!  What a wonderful birth 
story, I can see the smile on your face from here!!. I am so happy for you, especially Jackie whom I have 
met and always admired as a midwifery role model and a mentor during my grad 
program.  Lots of love Edwina 
J 

 
-Original 
Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jackie 
KitschkeSent: Friday, 
December 05, 2003 12:05 AMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [ozmidwifery] I've had a baby 
(long)
 

Dear 
all,

I have been lurking on and off over the 
last few months with a midwife and consumer view as I have given birth 
myself to a girl, Ena, on the 19.11.03. Having loosely followed the thread 
of fetal hearts, Today show etc along with my own experience I have a couple 
of comments.

We had Ena at home and employed the 
services of the wonderful Roz Donnellan-Fernandez. She came and saw me about 
5 times antenatally and would be here for a couple of hours so that even 
though I didn't see her lots of times (the frequency was my choice) I had 
plenty of time to convey to her how I felt, what outside factors may 
influence me etc and my husband Andrew had plenty of time to ask questions 
etc. 

We also invited a midwifery student, 
Jessica, to share our experience and so the four of us welcomed Ena 
into the world on a stormy evening.

I used the lessons taught to me by the 
many women I have met over the years including telling no-one our due date 
(handy as we went a week over), restricting visitors till 2 weeks, (handy as 
we had some postnatal issues), preparing lots of food before hand and taking 
plenty of time off before hand (well I am an elderly (38) 
primagravida!!).

The birth was the hardest, bestest, 
most overpowering thing I have ever done and gave us a girl (first one in 
Andrew's family for 48 years) in our bathroom. We needed to transfer to 
hospital for Ena which was fortuitous as we discovered her platelets were 
20,000 as I have an antibody on my platelets which were destroying hers and 
my platelets were 50,000 as I have a lupus anti-coagulant on mine (very 
unusual to have both or even one but it was a week where everything was 
unusual!!). So it was lucky I had a normal birth as an operative birth would 
have been dangerous for both of us and as it was a 6 hour ROP labour I am 
not sure if wouldn't have elected to have pain relief or what heaps of 
monitoring would have done. I am now at home with a baby who is wondering 
what all of the fuss was about (there were a few other issues which I won't 
go into but were all resolved! ). I used the maternity services as necessity 
required and my birth experience was great. I am so glad I didn't have to 
recover from a LUSCS as I was pumping etc as Ena spent some time in the 
nursery asleep from phenebar

Re: [ozmidwifery] posterior

[Lynne Staff]

Belly dance is great for this - I am serious, not only antenatally but also
during labour. I have danced with many women turning their babies in labour.
- Original Message -
From: "Kelly Yates" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 12:19 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] posterior


> Does anyone have some suggestions for helping turn a 35 week engaged
> posterior baby?
> Cheers
> Kelly
>
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.

--
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Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.

Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Lynne Staff]

In response to a woman's question "You don't have 
to worry about that. I have done this hundreds of times before and this is your 
first time. I know what you need."

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  *G 
  and S* 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 8:40 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage 
  Feedback 
  
  
Alesia Wrote: "I dont know what info the women 
recieve during their antenatal care in Obs rooms"
 
 
0.01 is the answer to your query Alesa.  And that 
is where the problem lies.
 
 
"Pregnant? 
Come to my practice.  I'm an Obstetrician .  

I'll look after you.  
I know what I'm doing. You sure as heck 
don't.
Give me control over your body. I'll care for all your 
needs.
I won't try and educate you. I don't really have the 
time. 
I am the specialist, I am a surgeon and you... you are 
merely pregnant."
 
 
Does that feel familiar?
Hugs,  Sonia W.
 
 

Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Lynne Staff]

This is how it was 20 years ago when I was a new midwife. Woe betide the
woman who queried or "refused" it (no such thing as declining).
- Original Message -
From: "Andrea Robertson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback


> Hi Joy,
>
> You said:  " others just said something like, ' here's a little injection
> to help the placenta come away'! "
>
> Another classic minifism!!!
>
> I challenge the assumption that just because the policy says that the
woman
> must have oxytocics routinely that the midwife can give it without gaining
> informed consent.  This would be another clear case of coercion, as is
> usually the case, the hospital's benefit (time saving).
>
> Cheers
>
> Andrea
>
> -
> Andrea Robertson
> Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in Childbirth Education
>
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: www.birthinternational.com
>
>
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.

--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.

Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Mrs Joanne M Fisher]

The same happens where I work.
Cheers, Joanne.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Alesa 
  Koziol 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 7:44 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage 
  Feedback
  
  Hi Denise
  I work in a private hospital where information 
  regarding normal birth is shared in childbirth education classes. This is 
  often the only time that the women hear about an alternative to active 
  management. All the Obs practice active management unless challenged by their 
  clients. We have close to 1000 births per year, but I could count on all my 
  digits the number of women who opt for physiological third stage. I dont know 
  what info the women recieve during their antenatal care in Obs 
  rooms
  Cheers
  Alesa
   
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Denise Hynd 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
; list 
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 3:52 
PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage 
Feedback 

Dear Ozmid list,
I need to know or get some feedback about the 
prevelance of physiological third stage in Australia.
That is are women being offered the option of 
birthing their placentas with out an oxytocic injection in Australain 
hospitals 
and is it standard practice to give women 
informed choice about this in homebirths (as I understand it) 
Personal expereinces of situations and protocols would be 
appreciated
 
Thank you 
Denise 

Re: [ozmidwifery] Response from Today Show

[Lynne Staff]

It did, but it was a surgically constructed orifice. And these surgically
constructed orifices are becoming more and more part of women's plastic
(able to be changed/moulded/constructed/deconstructed/reconstructed)
bodies.


- Original Message -
From: "Rob and Claire Leslie-Carter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 7:49 AM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Response from Today Show


>
> But the baby didn't come out of an orifice.
>
> Claire Saxby
>
> >From: "Dierdre Bowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: [ozmidwifery] Response from Today Show Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003
> >19:32:00 +1000
> >
> >Seems if you leave your letters till later you get better bites.  This
was
> >Tracey Grimshaws response to my email. It's a beauty.
> >Dierdre B.
> >- Original Message -
> >From: TCN Today Show
> >To: Dierdre Bowman
> >Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:11 PM
> >Subject: RE: Live Caesarean
> >
> >
> >Dear Dierdre,
> >
> >You have put very reasoned arguments to support your contention that CS
> >births are overused.
> >
> >It is an argument that we have explored and aired on our program many
times
> >in recent years, and during our program last week, we spoke to a midwife
on
> >that very point.
> >
> >You do not, however, support your accusation that we "did nothing but
tell
> >women it is okay to have cs for no medical reason".
> >
> >First, the program was about birth.period.
> >
> >Specifically about the arrival of the 20 millionth Australian, however
and
> >whomever that was.
> >
> >It was NOT A POLITICAL STATEMENT ON BIRTHING METHODS.though we
acknowledged
> >the debate.
> >
> >The special moment was young Tom Cooper's arrival into the world.and to
be
> >honest, it was truly wonderful.regardless of by which orifice he emerged.
> >
> >Of course it would have been impossible to schedule a vaginal delivery
> >"live" during a 3 hour window. Babies don't work to deadlines.
> >
> >And it was the "live broadcast" element that we wanted to share with our
> >viewers.the excitement of seeing something happen for the first time,
> >before anyone else has seen it, before your eyes.
> >
> >Tom was going to arrive cs regardless of whether we were there or not.we
> >simply took an amazing opportunity.
> >
> >It is a shame that the extreme end of the anti cs debate has sought to
> >hijack that moment for its own end.
> >
> >But back to your accusation: we explained repeatedly that Tom's mum Liane
> >had a history of complex reproductive problems.
> >
> >Her first baby was born by cs several days after her waters broke and
> >doctors were unable to induce labour.
> >
> >She sought the best medical advice she could get, and made an informed
> >decision not to have that happen again.
> >
> >While I respect opinions like yours I have been shocked and horrified by
a
> >minority of people who have accused her of being "less than a
mother";"too
> >posh to push" etc.
> >
> >This rush to judge others simply because they have the temerity to make a
> >choice that differs with one's own is an ugly side of human nature.
> >
> >Opinions are a right.they should not be a weapon.
> >
> >We did not tell anyone it was okay to have a cs for no medical reason.
> >
> >But frankly I do not presume the right to tell anyone how they should
make
> >one of the biggest decisions of their lives. Nor to judge them on it.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Tracy Grimshaw
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Dierdre Bowman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Sent: Tuesday, 9 December 2003 12:24 PM
> >To: TCN Today Show
> >Subject: Live Caesarean
> >Importance: High
> >
> >
> >
> >Over the past few days I have tried to come to grips with your show on
the
> >live caesarean birth.  I am a midwife who constantly sees women who have
> >been devastated by their experience with caesarean section (C/S).  While
I
> >agree that for some women 10-15% C/S is an absolutely necessary and life
> >saving event, it is an outrage that this story has gone to air in the
> >context it has.
> >
> >
> >
> >The c/s rate in this country, is out of control.  Research is now
revealing
> >that this operation may have long term effects especially on the
emotional
> >wellbeing of the mother. The world health organization recommended that
the
> >C/S rate should not be higher than 10-15% in ANY geographical area. Why
> >then do we in Australia have rates from between 20 and 50%. Please don't
> >tell me that 1/4 to 1/2 the population of Australian women are unable to
> >birth vaginally. I have seen mother and babies with sliced bladders and
> >parts of the baby cut because of C/S.  Women who for months after suffer
> >server pain as a result of infection and babies born with respiratory
> >distress as a result of C/S performed when the baby was SUPPOSE to be
full
> >term only to discover it was premature!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >I am a victim of two unnecessary caesareans and h

RE: [ozmidwifery] I've had a baby (long)

[Sylvia]

Congratulations on the birth of your daughter.  What a happy story that was.
However, whilst I in no way support the Today show story and a 'live' caesarean was just terrible and sensationalist television you finish your letter with the comment 'that's not childbirth'.  And I agree with this - it's not vaginal birth, but an operative 'delivery'.   
 
What upset me was your closing comments which I felt smacked of a superiority in having done it 'naturally' .  This type of belief only adds to the pain and confusion of those women who have been subjected to caesareans.  As a neonatal nurse and a midwife I often see mothers who, rightly or wrongly, have had an operative delivery followed by their baby requiring admission to a tertiary neonatal unit.  Not only as these women having to cope with the stress of a sick newborn but they must also cope with their perceived 'failure' to deliver naturally.  It's devastating to witness and I would like to remind those of us fortunate enough to have experienced a wonderful birth such as described here that women whose children are born via LUSCS are already mourning, and do not need others implying that they are somehow lesser mothers because of this operation.
Thank you.Vance & Edwina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:







Dear Jackie, Andrew and Ena,
 
Congratulations to you all!  What a wonderful birth story, I can see the smile on your face from here!!. I am so happy for you, especially Jackie whom I have met and always admired as a midwifery role model and a mentor during my grad program.  Lots of love Edwina J 
 
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jackie KitschkeSent: Friday, December 05, 2003 12:05 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [ozmidwifery] I've had a baby (long)
 

Dear all,

I have been lurking on and off over the last few months with a midwife and consumer view as I have given birth myself to a girl, Ena, on the 19.11.03. Having loosely followed the thread of fetal hearts, Today show etc along with my own experience I have a couple of comments.

We had Ena at home and employed the services of the wonderful Roz Donnellan-Fernandez. She came and saw me about 5 times antenatally and would be here for a couple of hours so that even though I didn't see her lots of times (the frequency was my choice) I had plenty of time to convey to her how I felt, what outside factors may influence me etc and my husband Andrew had plenty of time to ask questions etc. 

We also invited a midwifery student, Jessica, to share our experience and so the four of us welcomed Ena into the world on a stormy evening.

I used the lessons taught to me by the many women I have met over the years including telling no-one our due date (handy as we went a week over), restricting visitors till 2 weeks, (handy as we had some postnatal issues), preparing lots of food before hand and taking plenty of time off before hand (well I am an elderly (38) primagravida!!).

The birth was the hardest, bestest, most overpowering thing I have ever done and gave us a girl (first one in Andrew's family for 48 years) in our bathroom. We needed to transfer to hospital for Ena which was fortuitous as we discovered her platelets were 20,000 as I have an antibody on my platelets which were destroying hers and my platelets were 50,000 as I have a lupus anti-coagulant on mine (very unusual to have both or even one but it was a week where everything was unusual!!). So it was lucky I had a normal birth as an operative birth would have been dangerous for both of us and as it was a 6 hour ROP labour I am not sure if wouldn't have elected to have pain relief or what heaps of monitoring would have done. I am now at home with a baby who is wondering what all of the fuss was about (there were a few other issues which I won't go into but were all resolved!
 ). I used
 the maternity services as necessity required and my birth experience was great. I am so glad I didn't have to recover from a LUSCS as I was pumping etc as Ena spent some time in the nursery asleep from phenebarb due to some twitching.  I wanted there to be lots of milk for her when she woke up, which there was (not bad considering my Hb was 7.4 due to a retained placenta and PPH) all thanks to the LW staff at the WCH keeping all visitors out, keeping me in LW and having Andrew stay with me. (I was treated like the Queen of Sheba by everyone and I don't know how Ican ever thank all of my friends and colleuges for what they did for us).

Watching part of the Today show really angered me as that is not childbirth. Mess in the bathroom, exhilarated mother, exhausted and relieved support people and beautiful, 4.230kgs, caput and moulded head  daughter is childbirth!

Jackie
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- New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time!

[ozmidwifery] Today Show update.

[*G and S*]

Anyone see the Today Show revisit with mum, dad, babe and the ever present
Dr Ric Gordon?  They were interviewed this morning in the studio.

Grimshaw and liebman were gushy as usual and commented on all the wonderful
e.mailes they are still receiving.

Dr Ric was so thrilled to be able to help this 'model patient' out.
He apparently did have a contingency plan should things get a little
awkward, but as luck would have it, everything was picture perfect.

So, after being informed about all the nice things that happened to that mum
(no pain, no inconvenience etc etc ) I think I'll rush out and have a couple
of c.sections just for the heck of it.
They really do sound like fun.
Sonia W.
( oh yeah, I forgot I've got to be pregnant first.how disappointing
:)

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RE: [ozmidwifery] Response from Today Show

[Jo Bourne]

I wondered about that too

At 21:49 + 9/12/03, Rob and Claire Leslie-Carter wrote:
>But the baby didn't come out of an orifice.
>
>Claire Saxby
>
>>From: "Dierdre Bowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: [ozmidwifery] Response from Today Show Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:32:00 +1000
>>
>>Seems if you leave your letters till later you get better bites.  This was Tracey 
>>Grimshaws response to my email. It's a beauty.
>>Dierdre B.
>>- Original Message -
>>From: TCN Today Show
>>To: Dierdre Bowman
>>Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:11 PM
>>Subject: RE: Live Caesarean
>>
>>
>>Dear Dierdre,
>>
>>You have put very reasoned arguments to support your contention that CS births are 
>>overused.
>>
>>It is an argument that we have explored and aired on our program many times in 
>>recent years, and during our program last week, we spoke to a midwife on that very 
>>point.
>>
>>You do not, however, support your accusation that we "did nothing but tell women it 
>>is okay to have cs for no medical reason".
>>
>>First, the program was about birth.period.
>>
>>Specifically about the arrival of the 20 millionth Australian, however and whomever 
>>that was.
>>
>>It was NOT A POLITICAL STATEMENT ON BIRTHING METHODS.though we acknowledged the 
>>debate.
>>
>>The special moment was young Tom Cooper's arrival into the world.and to be honest, 
>>it was truly wonderful.regardless of by which orifice he emerged.
>>
>>Of course it would have been impossible to schedule a vaginal delivery "live" during 
>>a 3 hour window. Babies don't work to deadlines.
>>
>>And it was the "live broadcast" element that we wanted to share with our viewers.the 
>>excitement of seeing something happen for the first time, before anyone else has 
>>seen it, before your eyes.
>>
>>Tom was going to arrive cs regardless of whether we were there or not.we simply took 
>>an amazing opportunity.
>>
>>It is a shame that the extreme end of the anti cs debate has sought to hijack that 
>>moment for its own end.
>>
>>But back to your accusation: we explained repeatedly that Tom's mum Liane had a 
>>history of complex reproductive problems.
>>
>>Her first baby was born by cs several days after her waters broke and doctors were 
>>unable to induce labour.
>>
>>She sought the best medical advice she could get, and made an informed decision not 
>>to have that happen again.
>>
>>While I respect opinions like yours I have been shocked and horrified by a minority 
>>of people who have accused her of being "less than a mother";"too posh to push" etc.
>>
>>This rush to judge others simply because they have the temerity to make a choice 
>>that differs with one's own is an ugly side of human nature.
>>
>>Opinions are a right.they should not be a weapon.
>>
>>We did not tell anyone it was okay to have a cs for no medical reason.
>>
>>But frankly I do not presume the right to tell anyone how they should make one of 
>>the biggest decisions of their lives. Nor to judge them on it.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Tracy Grimshaw
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Dierdre Bowman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Sent: Tuesday, 9 December 2003 12:24 PM
>>To: TCN Today Show
>>Subject: Live Caesarean
>>Importance: High
>>
>>
>>
>>Over the past few days I have tried to come to grips with your show on the live 
>>caesarean birth.  I am a midwife who constantly sees women who have been devastated 
>>by their experience with caesarean section (C/S).  While I agree that for some women 
>>10-15% C/S is an absolutely necessary and life saving event, it is an outrage that 
>>this story has gone to air in the context it has.
>>
>>
>>
>>The c/s rate in this country, is out of control.  Research is now revealing that 
>>this operation may have long term effects especially on the emotional wellbeing of 
>>the mother. The world health organization recommended that the C/S rate should not 
>>be higher than 10-15% in ANY geographical area. Why then do we in Australia have 
>>rates from between 20 and 50%. Please don't tell me that 1/4 to 1/2 the population 
>>of Australian women are unable to birth vaginally. I have seen mother and babies 
>>with sliced bladders and parts of the baby cut because of C/S.  Women who for months 
>>after suffer server pain as a result of infection and babies born with respiratory 
>>distress as a result of C/S performed when the baby was SUPPOSE to be full term only 
>>to discover it was premature!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>I am a victim of two unnecessary caesareans and having a previous C/S is NOT a valid 
>>reason for having another. In fact in order to escape the knife the third time I had 
>>to birth at home with a midwife. The only person who would fight for my rights.  
>>Mothers and infants are at double to three times the risk of Death having a c/s than 
>>a vaginal delivery.  We are working very hard as mothers and midwives to turn around 
>>this potentially disastrous situation. Your show has

Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[*G and S*]

Alesia Wrote: "I dont know what info the 
women recieve during their antenatal care in Obs rooms"
 
 
0.01 is the answer to your query Alesa.  And that 
is where the problem lies.
 
 
"Pregnant? 
Come to my practice.  I'm an Obstetrician .  

I'll look after you.  
I know what I'm doing. You sure as heck 
don't.
Give me control over your body. I'll care for all your 
needs.
I won't try and educate you. I don't really have the 
time. 
I am the specialist, I am a surgeon and you... you are 
merely pregnant."
 
 
Does that feel familiar?
Hugs,  Sonia W.
 
 

RE: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Isis and Andrew Caple]

I was too overwhelmed to ask anything about where he got 
his info, I could only point out the greater chance of nothing happening. This 
is the same man who told me I would need a colostomy bag even if I didn't tear 
again..


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mary 
MurphySent: Tuesday, 9 December 2003 8:19 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage 
Feedback

Where 
did that man get his statistics?  If it applied to my practice I would have 
dead women all over the place! MM
 
.'" He 
told me that 10-15% of women that don't have the injection die from PPH.. 
"

Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Andrea Robertson]

Hi Joy,

You said:  " others just said something like, ' here's a little injection 
to help the placenta come away'! "

Another classic minifism!!!

I challenge the assumption that just because the policy says that the woman 
must have oxytocics routinely that the midwife can give it without gaining 
informed consent.  This would be another clear case of coercion, as is 
usually the case, the hospital's benefit (time saving).

Cheers

Andrea

-
Andrea Robertson
Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in Childbirth Education
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.birthinternational.com
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Response from Today Show

[Rob and Claire Leslie-Carter]

But the baby didn't come out of an orifice.

Claire Saxby

From: "Dierdre Bowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Response from Today Show Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 
19:32:00 +1000

Seems if you leave your letters till later you get better bites.  This was 
Tracey Grimshaws response to my email. It's a beauty.
Dierdre B.
- Original Message -
From: TCN Today Show
To: Dierdre Bowman
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:11 PM
Subject: RE: Live Caesarean

Dear Dierdre,

You have put very reasoned arguments to support your contention that CS 
births are overused.

It is an argument that we have explored and aired on our program many times 
in recent years, and during our program last week, we spoke to a midwife on 
that very point.

You do not, however, support your accusation that we "did nothing but tell 
women it is okay to have cs for no medical reason".

First, the program was about birth.period.

Specifically about the arrival of the 20 millionth Australian, however and 
whomever that was.

It was NOT A POLITICAL STATEMENT ON BIRTHING METHODS.though we acknowledged 
the debate.

The special moment was young Tom Cooper's arrival into the world.and to be 
honest, it was truly wonderful.regardless of by which orifice he emerged.

Of course it would have been impossible to schedule a vaginal delivery 
"live" during a 3 hour window. Babies don't work to deadlines.

And it was the "live broadcast" element that we wanted to share with our 
viewers.the excitement of seeing something happen for the first time, 
before anyone else has seen it, before your eyes.

Tom was going to arrive cs regardless of whether we were there or not.we 
simply took an amazing opportunity.

It is a shame that the extreme end of the anti cs debate has sought to 
hijack that moment for its own end.

But back to your accusation: we explained repeatedly that Tom's mum Liane 
had a history of complex reproductive problems.

Her first baby was born by cs several days after her waters broke and 
doctors were unable to induce labour.

She sought the best medical advice she could get, and made an informed 
decision not to have that happen again.

While I respect opinions like yours I have been shocked and horrified by a 
minority of people who have accused her of being "less than a mother";"too 
posh to push" etc.

This rush to judge others simply because they have the temerity to make a 
choice that differs with one's own is an ugly side of human nature.

Opinions are a right.they should not be a weapon.

We did not tell anyone it was okay to have a cs for no medical reason.

But frankly I do not presume the right to tell anyone how they should make 
one of the biggest decisions of their lives. Nor to judge them on it.

Regards,

Tracy Grimshaw







-Original Message-
From: Dierdre Bowman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 9 December 2003 12:24 PM
To: TCN Today Show
Subject: Live Caesarean
Importance: High


Over the past few days I have tried to come to grips with your show on the 
live caesarean birth.  I am a midwife who constantly sees women who have 
been devastated by their experience with caesarean section (C/S).  While I 
agree that for some women 10-15% C/S is an absolutely necessary and life 
saving event, it is an outrage that this story has gone to air in the 
context it has.



The c/s rate in this country, is out of control.  Research is now revealing 
that this operation may have long term effects especially on the emotional 
wellbeing of the mother. The world health organization recommended that the 
C/S rate should not be higher than 10-15% in ANY geographical area. Why 
then do we in Australia have rates from between 20 and 50%. Please don't 
tell me that 1/4 to 1/2 the population of Australian women are unable to 
birth vaginally. I have seen mother and babies with sliced bladders and 
parts of the baby cut because of C/S.  Women who for months after suffer 
server pain as a result of infection and babies born with respiratory 
distress as a result of C/S performed when the baby was SUPPOSE to be full 
term only to discover it was premature!!!



I am a victim of two unnecessary caesareans and having a previous C/S is 
NOT a valid reason for having another. In fact in order to escape the knife 
the third time I had to birth at home with a midwife. The only person who 
would fight for my rights.  Mothers and infants are at double to three 
times the risk of Death having a c/s than a vaginal delivery.  We are 
working very hard as mothers and midwives to turn around this potentially 
disastrous situation. Your show has done nothing but tell women it's ok to 
have C/S for no medical reason.  This is not OK. In fact your show has left 
consumers of birthing groups and organizations as well as the midwives who 
attend them outraged.  You really need to do some careful thinking before 
you air something based on the opinions of an obstetrician wh

[ozmidwifery] Discoloured teeth

[Sue Cookson]

Hi all,
Hoping for some information about why and how women's teeth (and eyeballs)
may discolour within days of childbirth.
A woman birthed her 5th child last week and is dismayed that her teeth are
now grey, as are her eyeballs apparently. Thoughts, experience and helpful
remedies would be appreciated.

Sue 
--
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Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.

Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Lynne Staff]

Ditto Mary!
On another tack, I have been tidying up my emails, 
and you asked me (a little while ago now, sorry) about the Side By Side 
conference, which went well, except for one presentation, and those who went 
will know what I am talking about(!). We don't have it on video, but there are 
copies of the CD with everyone's presentations (Powerpoint) on it. 
 
We would like to continue on with a 
conference every two years - so much happening inmaternity care, and 
private sector care issues are challenging for midwives to say the 
least!
Regards, Lynne

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mary 
  Murphy 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 7:19 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage 
  Feedback
  
  Where did that man get his statistics?  If it 
  applied to my practice I would have dead women all over the place! 
  MM
   
  .'" 
  He told me that 10-15% of women that don't have the injection die from PPH.. 
  "
  
  
  

[ozmidwifery] Response from Today Show

[Dierdre Bowman]

Seems if you leave your letters till later you get 
better bites.  This was Tracey Grimshaws response to my email. It's a 
beauty.
Dierdre B.
- Original Message - 
From: TCN Today 
Show 
To: Dierdre Bowman 
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:11 PM
Subject: RE: Live Caesarean


Dear 
Dierdre,
You have put very 
reasoned arguments to support your contention that CS births are 
overused.
It is an argument that 
we have explored and aired on our program many times in recent years, and during 
our program last week, we spoke to a midwife on that very 
point.
You do not, however, 
support your accusation that we “did nothing but tell women it is okay to have 
cs for no medical reason”.
First, the program was 
about birth…period. 
Specifically about the 
arrival of the 20 millionth Australian, however and whomever that 
was.
It was NOT A POLITICAL 
STATEMENT ON BIRTHING METHODS…though we acknowledged the 
debate.
The special moment was 
young Tom Cooper’s arrival into the world…and to be honest, it was truly 
wonderful…regardless of by which orifice he emerged.
Of course it would have 
been impossible to schedule a vaginal delivery “live” during a 3 hour window. 
Babies don’t work to deadlines.
And it was the “live 
broadcast” element that we wanted to share with our viewers…the excitement of 
seeing something happen for the first time, before anyone else has seen it, 
before your eyes.
Tom was going to arrive 
cs regardless of whether we were there or not…we simply took an amazing 
opportunity.
It is a shame that the 
extreme end of the anti cs debate has sought to hijack that moment for its own 
end.
But back to your 
accusation: we explained repeatedly that Tom’s mum Liane had a history of 
complex reproductive problems.
Her first baby was born 
by cs several days after her waters broke and doctors were unable to induce 
labour.
She sought the best 
medical advice she could get, and made an informed decision not to have that 
happen again.
While I respect 
opinions like yours I have been shocked and horrified by a minority of people 
who have accused her of being “less than a mother”;”too posh to push” 
etc.
This rush to judge 
others simply because they have the temerity to make a choice that differs with 
one’s own is an ugly side of human nature.
Opinions are a 
right…they should not be a weapon.
We did not tell anyone 
it was okay to have a cs for no medical reason. 
But frankly I do not 
presume the right to tell anyone how they should make one of the biggest 
decisions of their lives. Nor to judge them on it.
Regards,
Tracy 
Grimshaw
 
 
 
-Original 
Message-From: Dierdre 
Bowman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 9 December 2003 12:24 
PMTo: TCN Today 
ShowSubject: Live 
CaesareanImportance: 
High
 

Over the past few days I have tried 
to come to grips with your show on the live caesarean birth.  I am a 
midwife who constantly sees women who have been devastated by their experience 
with caesarean section (C/S).  While I agree that for some women 10-15% C/S 
is an absolutely necessary and life saving event, it is an outrage that this 
story has gone to air in the context it has.  

 

The c/s rate in this country, is out 
of control.  Research is now revealing that this operation may have long 
term effects especially on the emotional wellbeing of the mother. The world 
health organization recommended that the C/S rate should not be higher than 
10-15% in ANY geographical area. Why then do we in Australia have rates from 
between 20 and 50%. Please don't tell me that 1/4 to 1/2 the population of 
Australian women are unable to birth vaginally. I have seen mother and babies 
with sliced bladders and parts of the baby cut because of C/S.  Women who 
for months after suffer server pain as a result of infection and babies born 
with respiratory distress as a result of C/S performed when the baby was SUPPOSE 
to be full term only to discover it was premature!!!

 

I am a victim of two unnecessary 
caesareans and having a previous C/S is NOT a valid reason for having 
another. In fact in order to escape the knife the third time I had to 
birth at home with a midwife. The only person who would fight for my 
rights.  Mothers and infants are at double to three times the risk of Death 
having a c/s than a vaginal delivery.  We are working very hard as mothers 
and midwives to turn around this potentially disastrous situation. Your show has 
done nothing but tell women it's ok to have C/S for no medical reason.  
This is not OK. In fact your show has left consumers of birthing groups and 
organizations as well as the midwives who attend them outraged.  You really 
need to do some careful thinking before you air something based on the opinions 
of an obstetrician who's primary concern appears to be his star qualities as a 
performer instead of what should be his role. Promoting what is safe and best 
for women and babies.  

 

I would have second thoughts about 
watching your show ag

Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Dierdre Bowman]

In one hospital in Brisbane, not much is done to 
inform women before they are about to recieve oxytocics unless they happened to 
go to antenatal class where they are informed that it is given to help the 
placenta come away and that's that!!!
 
However in the favour of some midwives I have been 
with, they try to tell the women what the drugs is for and ask if they would be 
ok about having it.  Some midwives even avoid giving it unless haemorrhage 
occurs but they are far and few between.  Women just think that it is 
necessary and say yes.  So much for informed consent.
 
Dierdre B

Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw:(WOW) birth and breastfeeding attitudes

[Jo Bourne]

OH that made my day, what a lovely story.


At 18:23 +1100 9/12/03, jayne wrote:
>I was attending the church service of my uncle's funeral.  My 4month old
>started to get fussy and I started to stand to leave the church with her
>when the minister boomed "Don't you dare leave!  You are welcome to feed
>your baby here"!  He had seen me at the front of the church earlier
>breastfeeding.
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "megan davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:01 AM
>Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw:(WOW) birth and breastfeeding attitudes
>
>
>> I have also BF in church, where my father was a priest. No one commented.
>> thats What god, being a wise woman, made them for.
>> Megan
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Pinky McKay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 4:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw:(WOW) birth and breastfeeding attitudes
>>
>>
>> > Hi Cas, God on you -that's what god made breasts for!
>> >
>> > Reminds me when I was at a nieces wedding and a tiny bub in front of us
>> > began to cry, parents were obviously not about to BF in church -James
>then
>> 2
>> > said in a very loud voice - "Mummy, the baby wants a booby" I later
>> > discovered we were sitting directly in front of the person who was
>taping
>> > teh service - my brotherinlaw, father of the bride was quite bemused -
>my
>> > kids were the first on my husbands side of the family to be breastfed.
>> >
>> > Pinky
>> > - Original Message -
>> > From: "Wayne and Cas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 3:47 PM
>> > Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Fw:(WOW) birth and breastfeeding attitudes
>> >
>> >
>> > > I breastfeed my bub in church :)
>> > >
>> > > Cas, Wayne, Liam and Daniel McCullough
>> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > > www.casmccullough.com
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -Original Message-
>> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JoFromOz
>> > > Sent: Monday, 8 December 2003 11:29 AM
>> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > > Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw:(WOW) birth and breastfeeding attitudes
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I feel very strongly about the breast feeding in public issue as well.
>> > >
>> > > I can't WAIT to do it myself!  No wonder some people have so much
>> > > trouble breastfeeding - it's not considered normal enough to do
>infront
>> > > of people, so how do they know how to do it and how to fix the common
>> > > problems with it?
>> > >
>> > > I could be on my high horse for hours about this, but I'll jump off
>> > > before I start galloping away :)
>> > >
>> > > Breastfeeding is just so important, and anyone who tries to tell me
>not
>> > > to do it will cop an earful! :)
>> > >
>> > > Jo
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Babies are Born... Pizzas are delivered.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
>> > > Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
>> > > Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>> >
>> > --
>> > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
>> > Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
>> Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
>Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.


-- 
Jo Bourne
Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
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Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Sue Cookson]

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback 



Hi Denise,
Obviously in my practice in attendance at homebirths I offer normal physiological third stage. In over 200 homebirths I have given synto 3 times, with no maternal transfers for blood loss.
At Mullumbimby Hospital, which is a level 1A hospital with 3 birth rooms, it is fairly standard that no routine oxytocin is administered, but the GP's tend to wait for the first separation bleed and then pull the placentas out with controlled cord traction - often 5-10 minutes after the birth. Some women are therefore transferred out to higher level hospital care for 3rd stage haemorrhages. In the larger hospitals near us, oxytocin is negotiable, but with varying degrees of bullying if the decision is made to birth without it.
Hope this helps,
Sue

Dear Ozmid list,
I need to know or get some feedback about the prevelance of physiological third stage in Australia.
That is are women being offered the option of birthing their placentas with out an oxytocic injection in Australain hospitals 
and is it standard practice to give women informed choice about this in homebirths (as I understand it) 

Personal expereinces of situations and protocols would be appreciated
 
Thank you 
Denise 

Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Alesa Koziol]

Hi Denise
I work in a private hospital where information 
regarding normal birth is shared in childbirth education classes. This is often 
the only time that the women hear about an alternative to active management. All 
the Obs practice active management unless challenged by their clients. We have 
close to 1000 births per year, but I could count on all my digits the number of 
women who opt for physiological third stage. I dont know what info the women 
recieve during their antenatal care in Obs rooms
Cheers
Alesa
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Denise Hynd 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  ; list 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 3:52 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback 
  
  
  Dear Ozmid list,
  I need to know or get some feedback about the 
  prevelance of physiological third stage in Australia.
  That is are women being offered the option of 
  birthing their placentas with out an oxytocic injection in Australain 
  hospitals 
  and is it standard practice to give women 
  informed choice about this in homebirths (as I understand it) Personal 
  expereinces of situations and protocols would be appreciated
   
  Thank you 
  Denise 

Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Andrea Bilcliff]

Aaahhh...that explains why an ex-midwife 
told a recent client that the cemetery is full of dead mothers & babies who 
had had homebirths! 
Andrea Bilcliff
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mary 
  Murphy 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:19 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage 
  Feedback
  
  Where did that man get his statistics?  If it 
  applied to my practice I would have dead women all over the place! 
  MM
   
  .'" 
  He told me that 10-15% of women that don't have the injection die from PPH.. 
  "
  
  
  

Re: [ozmidwifery] birth and breastfeeding attitudes

[jo hunter]

My second baby was one of those baby's that let everyone know when she was
feeding by making the loudest sucking and gulping noises. I breastfed her
sitting on the floor of the courtroom, whilst the judge was looking down on
me rather accusingly when Maggie Lecky Thompson was being heard. It gave her
a bit of a kick too!
Jo
- Original Message -
From: "Wayne and Cas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:30 PM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] birth and breastfeeding attitudes


> What's the wildest place you've bf your baby? I fed Liam in the queue
> for the top level of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. Got a few funny looks
> but just explained "Il Faim!" (translation if my spelling is correct...
> "He's hungry!" : ) )
>
> I will bf Dan anywhere I please... It's still a free country. Anyone who
> gives dirty looks for that needs to learn how to relax (putting it very
> politely LOL...)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cas.
>
> Cas, Wayne, Liam and Daniel McCullough
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.casmccullough.com
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jo Bourne
> Sent: Monday, 8 December 2003 5:43 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] birth and breastfeeding attitudes
>
>
> this really surprises me, I have just never had even a nasty look
> (though lots of smiles) - feeding my baby (and now my toddler) on buses,
> in bank queues, at funerals, weddings, at restaurants with my
> grandmother who bottlefed all of her 7 children... I forget that there
> are still people around with this attitude. My daughter still feeds A
> LOT at 22 months so we still feed in public all the time and I would
> have the same reaction you did - assuming they must be talking about
> something else.
>
> To be honest I have heard far more women who bottle feed complaining
> about getting dirty looks and feeling embarassed in public than
> breastfeeders, possibly they feel guilty and are expecting to get a
> negative response so they see one. I do think that the majority of
> Australians have a reasonable attitude today, or at least know to keep
> their negative opinion to themselves.
>
> cheers
> Jo
>
>
> At 23:05 +1100 7/12/03, Ron  & Nicole Christensen wrote:
> >Not only am I exasperated by the constant shameful attitude about
> >natural birthing in this country ...but it seems to not stop there!!!
> >. I was strolling out of a local shopping plaza this morning, with
> >my darling 4 month old baby suckling contentedly on the breast all
> >snuggled up in his sling... when a middle-aged woman past me and
> >commented quite loudly to her husband "that's disgusting!!". Being in
> >my own little world with my baby - my first thoughts were that she was
> >in deep conversation with her husband... until I eventually looked up
> >and she was giving me a filthy look!!! I am already disheartened by the
>
> >ignorance of natural birth in this country ... but when the sight of a
> >mother breastfeeding her young baby draws venom (especially from
> >another woman) it really makes me sad. I hope that this woman does not
> >have girls...goodness knows what advice she would be passing on!
> >
> >sorry - just had to share my bizarre experience of today... kind
> >regards, Nicole
> >
> >--
> >This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> >Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>
>
> --
> Jo Bourne
> Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>
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Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rdStage Feedback

[Mary Murphy]

Where 
did that man get his statistics?  If it applied to my practice I would have 
dead women all over the place! MM
 
.'" He 
told me that 10-15% of women that don't have the injection die from PPH.. 
"

RE: [ozmidwifery] C/S

[Neretlis, Bethany]

just have to add my bit. the hospital i work 
at (WA), we only go to recovery if the c/s has been under G/A. If under 
epidural, the woman cuddling babe on the bed, get wheeled straight back to the 
ward, and 'recovered' there. no seperation at all, other than the initial check 
over with the paed. if babe requires care in the nursery, then is taken back to 
the ward/nursery seperately to mum, and if she has a GA then mum goes to 
recovery and babe and support person return to ward, while mum is sutured and 
goes to recovery.
 
love bethany

  -Original 
  Message-From: Rhonda 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, 9 December 2003 
  11:56To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: 
  [ozmidwifery] C/S
  


  
Don't know about Qld but I heard today that they are going to 
increase private health insurance because claims for damages are going 
to be regulated - there has to be 5% permanent physical damage or 10% 
mental damage for a claim to be made.
Can't imagine how this is going to affect childbirth.
 
As a body piercer who has just been through the ringer with a case 
that was a big fraud and the guy won and got a lot (sending us broke) 
 even though we did nothing - could not see how we could loose but 
hey - biased judge and bad barristor and what do you get!  A really 
dodgy result where every piece of evidence that contradicted him was 
brushed over or just not mentioned.   Oh - they forgot thast 
bit coz it didn't fit!  LOL 
 This new law will protect me from claims but - what about 
ob's?
But, the legal system and civil cases are not closely linked - law 
does not realy come into civil matters - you don't need proof just need 
to have a better sob story.
 
Hmm - once again disolutioned by our 'wonderful' society.

Rhonda
 
---Original 
Message---
 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, 
December 09, 2003 12:37:48
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: 
[ozmidwifery] C/S
 
Without being able to say too much we may 
have a law suit about to happen in Qld by a couple who were insensed to 
find they had been coerced into a C/S to find there was nothing wrong 
with their baby. Not only that, the info I have says the father has 
evidence that the CTG trace was not as bad as it was made out 
to be and that the partogram which he saw initially was later 
changed. 
 
I think they may have bitten off more than 
they can chew. The husband is outraged and is intending to take legal 
action.
 
Hopefully we will hear more 
soon.
Dierdre B.
 

  

  
  


  
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw:(WOW) birth and breastfeeding attitudes

[jayne]

I was attending the church service of my uncle's funeral.  My 4month old
started to get fussy and I started to stand to leave the church with her
when the minister boomed "Don't you dare leave!  You are welcome to feed
your baby here"!  He had seen me at the front of the church earlier
breastfeeding.


- Original Message - 
From: "megan davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw:(WOW) birth and breastfeeding attitudes


> I have also BF in church, where my father was a priest. No one commented.
> thats What god, being a wise woman, made them for.
> Megan
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Pinky McKay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 4:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw:(WOW) birth and breastfeeding attitudes
>
>
> > Hi Cas, God on you -that's what god made breasts for!
> >
> > Reminds me when I was at a nieces wedding and a tiny bub in front of us
> > began to cry, parents were obviously not about to BF in church -James
then
> 2
> > said in a very loud voice - "Mummy, the baby wants a booby" I later
> > discovered we were sitting directly in front of the person who was
taping
> > teh service - my brotherinlaw, father of the bride was quite bemused -
my
> > kids were the first on my husbands side of the family to be breastfed.
> >
> > Pinky
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Wayne and Cas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 3:47 PM
> > Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Fw:(WOW) birth and breastfeeding attitudes
> >
> >
> > > I breastfeed my bub in church :)
> > >
> > > Cas, Wayne, Liam and Daniel McCullough
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > www.casmccullough.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JoFromOz
> > > Sent: Monday, 8 December 2003 11:29 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw:(WOW) birth and breastfeeding attitudes
> > >
> > >
> > > I feel very strongly about the breast feeding in public issue as well.
> > >
> > > I can't WAIT to do it myself!  No wonder some people have so much
> > > trouble breastfeeding - it's not considered normal enough to do
infront
> > > of people, so how do they know how to do it and how to fix the common
> > > problems with it?
> > >
> > > I could be on my high horse for hours about this, but I'll jump off
> > > before I start galloping away :)
> > >
> > > Breastfeeding is just so important, and anyone who tries to tell me
not
> > > to do it will cop an earful! :)
> > >
> > > Jo
> > >
> > > --
> > > Babies are Born... Pizzas are delivered.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> > > Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
> > >
> > > --
> > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> > > Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
> >
> > --
> > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> > Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
> >
>
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>
>


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