RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-12 Thread Lisa Gierke 
Title: Message



Mary 
here is a quick summary of what I found all pretty standard stuff.have full 
text papers if anyone is interested in any of the points...some of interest 
forwarded to the list..

  isolated oligohydramnios at term in relation to no other fetal or 
  maternal health issue is  not an indication for IOL...although may 
  require further monitoring 
  oligohydramnios diagnosed prior to third trimester has poor outcomes- 
  live birth rate in one small study of only 1 in 15
  measurement of liqour volume is done in different ways and alone is a 
  poor predictor of problems but is probably quite useful when combined with 
  other tests such as dopplers to monitor high risk 
  pregnancies
  oligohydramnios is common in IUGR and in such cases warrants further 
  ongoing assessment of fetal wellbing
  fetal 
  growth restriction is the most common cause of stillbirth and one study 
  suggests probably plays a large role in those IUFDs which are reported as 
  unexplained
  overall oligohydramnios probably is related to an an increase in fetal 
  intolerability of labour and an increase in CS for fetal distress; and a 
  increase in the incidence of low apgar  at 5 minutes; no study 
  has shown at relationship between oligohydramnios and neonatal 
  acidosis
  maternal oral hydration has been shown to improve liqour volume within 
  hours and probably has a lasting effect 
Regards Lisa

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mary 
  MurphySent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 6:24 PMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor 
  was Trial of scar
  
  “have done my own lit 
  r/v and answered my own questions!!  Regards Lisa”  
  
   
  Lisa, 
  would you share this with us?  I am very interested in the subject.  
  Thanks. MM
   
   
  
  
  
  
  
 

: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-12 Thread Lisa Gierke 

Felicity 
I have deliberatley left replying  until today so as not to reply in haste
or anger and to try and understand where you are coming from
Firstly I agree with you that women are not morons; but the reality for many
of us is that the women we work with are not always willing to do extensive
research into a form of care that is presented to them, and for some
research may just involve logging onto  the internet and reading statements
such as Janets, I still believe that such a statment is too broad & could
prove problematic in such a situation. You are lucky if you work with women
who read research and make informed descisons because for many of us, our
realities are unfortuantely different and despite all the empowering in the
world some choose not to be like this. And I disagree with the accuracy of
Janets statement, as I am unable to find any literature that states that low
liquor means labour is imminent. And for some women, decreased liqour
volume, when present with other variables is indicative of an increased risk
to the well being of her baby.

In hindsight I probably could have worded my post better- my dismissiveness
related to the fact that I was presented with an opinion based paper as
evidence for Janets statement, and yes opinion counts, but as a health
professional I am also required to provide women with eveidence based
information. No disrespect was directed at anyone. Yes I still believe that
alittle knowledge can be dangerous. A perfect example is the woman who has a
normal healthy fetus and decreased liqour .is told by the doc that she
must have IOL because there is a risk to the baby...she asks no further
questions...presents for IOL which fails and she goes to CS, and has a PPH..
is this not a case of alittle info being dangerous... am sure midwives have
countless such examples!  

And in regards to birthing womans innate wisdom well, again this is not
always the case unfortunately; as a woman presenting weekly from 32K, with
various aches and pains, in the hope that someone will suggest IOL because
she is tired of being pregnant is not being particulary wise. Not all woman
have the wisdom or the intuiton when it comes to their pregnancies and their
bodies that you speak of. In such a public forum I think we need to take
into account all the women who birth babies in this country...including
those who are experiencing less than normal pregnancies, and those too who
choose not to inform themselves adequately, or those who leave the choices
up to others.

Lisa

PS my apologies if I offended anyone for my use of the word
'management'I obviously require further tuition in the art
of political correctedness.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen &
Felicity
Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 12:12 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar


Lisa,

"such a broad  unsupported statement could lead a woman to believe that the
current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she read on this
list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour was only
due to imminent labour."

Well, since women aren't morons, and pregnancy is not really an issue of
"management" but rather CARE and SUPPORT, I don't think we need to fear that
a woman reading research, evidence and opinion and making her own decisions
will truly be endangered by "a little bit of knowledge" - if she is able to
enjoy true control of her own pregnancy and birth and receive true care and
support.  Besides which I personally find no flaw in Janet's reasoning and
statement; it's accurate.  And this is a consumer list as much as it is a
Midwife and Doula list.

"Mary I was not 'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of
her background."

Gloria Lemay's wisdom, experience and evidence based knowledge is not "the
opinion of an American Doula" (I don't know of many women with more claim to
the title of MIDWIFE than Gloria!) - besides which, I'm intrigued as to why
an American Doula's contributions would hold little weight anyway?  If you
ARE in fact aware of her background (as well as the fact that she can see
and post on this list), I would have thought you would have at least phrased
your dismissal more respectfully.  I also feel sad that wisdom, intuition,
instinct and common sense are rejected and that Midwives will disregard the
hard won wisdom of their own (Gloria made some colossal personal sacrifices
in honour of TRULY being with woman and providing REAL support and care).

Where is our respect for our real crones and our birthing women's innate
wisdom?

And I wouldn't "shoot an opinion from an Obstetrician down in flames" if
that opinion was accurate, fair, woman-centered, evidence-based, and
reasonable.


--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.

[ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-12 Thread Lisa Gierke 
Title: Message



 
Felicity 
I have 
deliberatley left replying  until today so as not to reply in haste or 
anger and to try and understand where you are coming 
from
Firstly I agree with you that women are not morons; but the reality for 
many of us is that the women we work with are not always willing to do extensive 
research into a form of care that is presented to them, and for some research 
may just involve logging onto  the internet and reading statements such as 
Janets, I still believe that such a statment is too broad & could prove 
problematic in such a situation. You are lucky if you work with women who read 
research and make informed descisons because for many of us, our realities are 
unfortuantely different and despite all the empowering in the world some 
choose not to be like this. And I disagree with the accuracy of Janets 
statement, as I am unable to find any literature that states that low liquor 
means labour is imminent. And for some women, decreased liqour volume, when 
present with other variables is indicative of an increased risk to the well 
being of her baby.
 
In 
hindsight I probably could have worded my post better- my dismissiveness related 
to the fact that I was presented with an opinion based paper as evidence for 
Janets statement, and yes opinion counts, but as a health professional I am also 
required to provide women with eveidence based information. No disrespect was 
directed at anyone. Yes I still believe that alittle knowledge can be 
dangerous. A perfect example is the woman who has a normal 
healthy fetus and decreased liqour .is told by the doc that she must 
have IOL because there is a risk to the baby...she asks no further 
questions...presents for IOL which fails and she goes to CS, and has a PPH.. is 
this not a case of alittle info being dangerous... am sure midwives 
have countless such examples!  
 
And in 
regards to birthing womans innate wisdom well, again this is not always the case 
unfortunately; as a woman presenting weekly from 32K, with various aches and 
pains, in the hope that someone will suggest IOL because she is tired of being 
pregnant is not being particulary wise. Not all woman have the wisdom or the 
intuiton when it comes to their pregnancies and their bodies that you speak of. 
In such a public forum I think we need to take into account all the women who 
birth babies in this country...including those who are experiencing less than 
normal pregnancies, and those too who choose not to inform themselves 
adequately, or those who leave the choices up to others.
Lisa
PS my 
apologies if I offended anyone for my use of the word 
'management'I obviously require further tuition in the art of 
political correctedness.

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen 
  & FelicitySent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 12:12 PMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor 
  was Trial of scar
  Lisa,
   
  "such a broad  unsupported statement could lead a woman to 
  believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she 
  read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased 
  liqour was only due to imminent labour."
   
  Well, since women aren't 
  morons, and pregnancy is not really an issue of "management" but rather CARE 
  and SUPPORT, I don't think we need to fear that a woman reading research, 
  evidence and opinion and making her own decisions will truly be 
  endangered by "a little bit of knowledge" - if she is able to enjoy true 
  control of her own pregnancy and birth and receive true care and 
  support.  Besides which I personally find no flaw in Janet's reasoning 
  and statement; it's accurate.  And this is a consumer list as much as it 
  is a Midwife and Doula list.
   
  "Mary I was not 
  'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of her 
  background."
   
  Gloria Lemay's wisdom, 
  experience and evidence based knowledge is not "the opinion of an American 
  Doula" (I don't know of many women with more claim to the title of MIDWIFE 
  than Gloria!) - besides which, I'm intrigued as to why an American Doula's 
  contributions would hold little weight anyway?  If you ARE in fact aware 
  of her background (as well as the fact that she can see and post on this 
  list), I would have thought you would have at least phrased your 
  dismissal more respectfully.  I also feel sad that wisdom, intuition, 
  instinct and common sense are rejected and that Midwives will disregard 
  the hard won wisdom of their own (Gloria made some colossal personal 
  sacrifices in honour of TRULY being with woman and providing REAL support and 
  care).
   
  Where is our respect for 
  our real crones and our birthing women's innate wisdom?
   
  And

[ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-12 Thread Lisa Gierke 




Felicity 
I have deliberatley left replying  until today so as not to reply in haste
or anger and to try and understand where you are coming from Firstly I
agree with you that women are not morons; but the reality for many of us is
that the women we work with are not always willing to do extensive research
into a form of care that is presented to them, and for some research may
just involve logging onto  the internet and reading statements such as
Janets, I still believe that such a statment is too broad & could prove
problematic in such a situation. You are lucky if you work with women who
read research and make informed descisons because for many of us, our
realities are unfortuantely different and despite all the empowering in the
world some choose not to be like this. And I disagree with the accuracy of
Janets statement, as I am unable to find any literature that states that low
liquor means labour is imminent. And for some women, decreased liqour
volume, when present with other variables is indicative of an increased risk
to the well being of her baby.

In hindsight I probably could have worded my post better- my dismissiveness
related to the fact that I was presented with an opinion based paper as
evidence for Janets statement, and yes opinion counts, but as a health
professional I am also required to provide women with eveidence based
information. No disrespect was directed at anyone. Yes I still believe that
alittle knowledge can be dangerous. A perfect example is the woman who has a
normal healthy fetus and decreased liqour .is told by the doc that she
must have IOL because there is a risk to the baby...she asks no further
questions...presents for IOL which fails and she goes to CS, and has a PPH..
is this not a case of alittle info being dangerous... am sure midwives have
countless such examples!  

And in regards to birthing womans innate wisdom well, again this is not
always the case unfortunately; as a woman presenting weekly from 32K, with
various aches and pains, in the hope that someone will suggest IOL because
she is tired of being pregnant is not being particulary wise. Not all woman
have the wisdom or the intuiton when it comes to their pregnancies and their
bodies that you speak of. In such a public forum I think we need to take
into account all the women who birth babies in this country...including
those who are experiencing less than normal pregnancies, and those too who
choose not to inform themselves adequately, or those who leave the choices
up to others.

Lisa

PS my apologies if I offended anyone for my use of the word
'management'I obviously require further tuition in the art
of political correctedness.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen &
Felicity
Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 12:12 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar


Lisa,

"such a broad  unsupported statement could lead a woman to believe that the
current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she read on this
list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour was only
due to imminent labour."

Well, since women aren't morons, and pregnancy is not really an issue of
"management" but rather CARE and SUPPORT, I don't think we need to fear that
a woman reading research, evidence and opinion and making her own decisions
will truly be endangered by "a little bit of knowledge" - if she is able to
enjoy true control of her own pregnancy and birth and receive true care and
support.  Besides which I personally find no flaw in Janet's reasoning and
statement; it's accurate.  And this is a consumer list as much as it is a
Midwife and Doula list.

"Mary I was not 'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of
her background."

Gloria Lemay's wisdom, experience and evidence based knowledge is not "the
opinion of an American Doula" (I don't know of many women with more claim to
the title of MIDWIFE than Gloria!) - besides which, I'm intrigued as to why
an American Doula's contributions would hold little weight anyway?  If you
ARE in fact aware of her background (as well as the fact that she can see
and post on this list), I would have thought you would have at least phrased
your dismissal more respectfully.  I also feel sad that wisdom, intuition,
instinct and common sense are rejected and that Midwives will disregard the
hard won wisdom of their own (Gloria made some colossal personal sacrifices
in honour of TRULY being with woman and providing REAL support and care).

Where is our respect for our real crones and our birthing women's innate
wisdom?

And I wouldn't "shoot an opinion from an Obstetrician down in flames" if
that opinion was accurate, fair, woman-centered, evidence-based, and
reasonable.


--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.

RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-11 Thread Lisa Gierke 
Title: Message



Thanks...

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Melissa 
  SingerSent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 1:11 PMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor 
  was Trial of scar
  I didn't think Lisa was dismissive of Gloria, and 
  I thought she made a valid and well stated point, which has encouraged debate, 
  discussion and further thought.  Thanks Lisa
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Stephen & 
Felicity 
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 

Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 10:12 
AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor 
was Trial of scar

Lisa,
 
"such a broad  unsupported statement could lead a woman to 
believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because 
she read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased 
liqour was only due to imminent labour."
 
Well, since women 
aren't morons, and pregnancy is not really an issue of "management" but 
rather CARE and SUPPORT, I don't think we need to fear that a woman reading 
research, evidence and opinion and making her own decisions will 
truly be endangered by "a little bit of knowledge" - if she is able to 
enjoy true control of her own pregnancy and birth and receive true care and 
support.  Besides which I personally find no flaw in Janet's reasoning 
and statement; it's accurate.  And this is a consumer list as much as 
it is a Midwife and Doula list.
 
"Mary I was 
not 'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of her 
background."
 
Gloria Lemay's wisdom, 
experience and evidence based knowledge is not "the opinion of an American 
Doula" (I don't know of many women with more claim to the title of MIDWIFE 
than Gloria!) - besides which, I'm intrigued as to why an American Doula's 
contributions would hold little weight anyway?  If you ARE in fact 
aware of her background (as well as the fact that she can see and post on 
this list), I would have thought you would have at least phrased your 
dismissal more respectfully.  I also feel sad that wisdom, intuition, 
instinct and common sense are rejected and that Midwives will disregard 
the hard won wisdom of their own (Gloria made some colossal personal 
sacrifices in honour of TRULY being with woman and providing REAL support 
and care).
 
Where is our respect 
for our real crones and our birthing women's innate wisdom?
 
And I wouldn't "shoot 
an opinion from an Obstetrician down in flames" if that opinion was 
accurate, fair, woman-centered, evidence-based, and 
reasonable.

RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-11 Thread Lisa Gierke 
Title: Message



Will 
do so Mary.
Lisa

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mary 
  MurphySent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 6:24 PMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor 
  was Trial of scar
  
  “have done my own lit 
  r/v and answered my own questions!!  Regards Lisa”  
  
   
  Lisa, 
  would you share this with us?  I am very interested in the subject.  
  Thanks. MM
   
   
  
  
  
  
  
Janet 
could you please provide us with some references on the low liquorthing? 
My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severegrowth 
restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would beassessed 
along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGRfetus 
who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes;you 
have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as 
IUFDetc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero 
monitoring.We need to be careful we are not normalising the 
pathological!Lisa

RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-11 Thread Mary Murphy 
Title: Message








“have done my own lit r/v and
answered my own questions!!  Regards
Lisa”  

 

Lisa,
would you share this with us?  I am very interested in the subject.  Thanks.
MM

 

 













Janet could you
please provide us with some references on the low liquor
thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe
growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be
assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR
fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes;
you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD
etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring.
We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological!
Lisa

Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-10 Thread Melissa Singer 
Title: Message



I didn't think Lisa was dismissive of Gloria, and I 
thought she made a valid and well stated point, which has encouraged debate, 
discussion and further thought.  Thanks Lisa

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Stephen & 
  Felicity 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 10:12 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was 
  Trial of scar
  
  Lisa,
   
  "such a broad  unsupported statement could lead a woman to 
  believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she 
  read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased 
  liqour was only due to imminent labour."
   
  Well, since women aren't 
  morons, and pregnancy is not really an issue of "management" but rather CARE 
  and SUPPORT, I don't think we need to fear that a woman reading research, 
  evidence and opinion and making her own decisions will truly be 
  endangered by "a little bit of knowledge" - if she is able to enjoy true 
  control of her own pregnancy and birth and receive true care and 
  support.  Besides which I personally find no flaw in Janet's reasoning 
  and statement; it's accurate.  And this is a consumer list as much as it 
  is a Midwife and Doula list.
   
  "Mary I was not 
  'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of her 
  background."
   
  Gloria Lemay's wisdom, 
  experience and evidence based knowledge is not "the opinion of an American 
  Doula" (I don't know of many women with more claim to the title of MIDWIFE 
  than Gloria!) - besides which, I'm intrigued as to why an American Doula's 
  contributions would hold little weight anyway?  If you ARE in fact aware 
  of her background (as well as the fact that she can see and post on this 
  list), I would have thought you would have at least phrased your 
  dismissal more respectfully.  I also feel sad that wisdom, intuition, 
  instinct and common sense are rejected and that Midwives will disregard 
  the hard won wisdom of their own (Gloria made some colossal personal 
  sacrifices in honour of TRULY being with woman and providing REAL support and 
  care).
   
  Where is our respect for 
  our real crones and our birthing women's innate wisdom?
   
  And I wouldn't "shoot an 
  opinion from an Obstetrician down in flames" if that opinion was accurate, 
  fair, woman-centered, evidence-based, and 
reasonable.

Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-10 Thread Stephen & Felicity 
Title: Message



Lisa,
 
"such a broad  unsupported statement could lead a woman to 
believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she 
read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour 
was only due to imminent labour."
 
Well, since women aren't 
morons, and pregnancy is not really an issue of "management" but rather CARE and 
SUPPORT, I don't think we need to fear that a woman reading research, evidence 
and opinion and making her own decisions will truly be endangered by 
"a little bit of knowledge" - if she is able to enjoy true control of her own 
pregnancy and birth and receive true care and support.  Besides which I 
personally find no flaw in Janet's reasoning and statement; it's accurate.  
And this is a consumer list as much as it is a Midwife and Doula 
list.
 
"Mary I was not 
'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of her 
background."
 
Gloria Lemay's wisdom, 
experience and evidence based knowledge is not "the opinion of an American 
Doula" (I don't know of many women with more claim to the title of MIDWIFE than 
Gloria!) - besides which, I'm intrigued as to why an American Doula's 
contributions would hold little weight anyway?  If you ARE in fact aware of 
her background (as well as the fact that she can see and post on this list), I 
would have thought you would have at least phrased your dismissal more 
respectfully.  I also feel sad that wisdom, intuition, instinct and common 
sense are rejected and that Midwives will disregard the hard won wisdom of 
their own (Gloria made some colossal personal sacrifices in honour of TRULY 
being with woman and providing REAL support and care).
 
Where is our respect for 
our real crones and our birthing women's innate wisdom?
 
And I wouldn't "shoot an 
opinion from an Obstetrician down in flames" if that opinion was accurate, fair, 
woman-centered, evidence-based, and reasonable.

RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-10 Thread Mary Murphy 
Title: Message








Point taken.  We are all so passionate and like the women feel
we need to dddooo something!  BuT what??? REGARDS, mm

 













..I am trying to take the middle road
here...such a broad  unsupported statement could lead a woman to believe
that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she read on
this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour was
only due to imminent labour. Lisa





-Original Message-
From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
[mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au]
On Behalf Of Mary Murphy
Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 9:10
AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low
liquor was Trial of scar

You are correct. Prenatal testing is imperfect. 
The problem is that women are led to believe that it is and action is taken on
the results. It is the doctors who should be careful about making broad
statements.  I recently attended a lecture on biophysical profiling given
by a doctor doing her Masters in U/S prenatal diagnosis.  She stated that
the biophysical profiling was just like a snapshot in time.  It could not
predict what would happen tomorrow, nor next week.  Just at the moment it
was taken; obviously research is done and extrapolated to the wider group of
similar women and that is what we rely on.  By the way, Gloria Lemay is a
very experienced American midwife.  She may be referred to as a doula for
legal reasons, but she would put most of us to shame with her knowledge and
experience. She is also very politically savvy as she has fought for the rights
of birthing women for sooo long.  She has also spent time in jail because
of her outspoken views.  Do not dismiss her opinions so lightly. MM

 













Janet am well aware of the imperfections
in technologies used around birth - but I think we need to be careful when we
make broad statements.







Lower liquor (and remember we measure VERY imperfectly) is normal at term
- this is different from earlier in pregnancy.





Biophysical profiling
is supposed to give this kind of information but is deeply flawed. To whit:





Suspect
Diagnoses Come with Biophysical Profiling
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/biophysical.asp





- Original
Message -

RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-10 Thread Lisa Gierke 
Title: Message



Mary I 
was not 'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of her 
background. What I was saying is that I wished to have hard facts 
not opinions  on the comments in regards to the liquor thing! If it 
were an opinion from an obstetrician we would be shooting  it down in 
flames! I completely agree with the article, and I am well aware of the stuff on 
biophysical profiles; in the unit I work in it is no longer used as it once was. 
My points were that such a broad statement should be clarified.Completely agree 
with  you Mary on the fact that women are led to believe that they require 
intervention from the results  of antenatal tests...I am trying to take the 
middle road here...such a broad  unsupported statement could lead a woman 
to believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she 
read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour 
was only due to imminent labour. Lisa

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mary 
  MurphySent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 9:10 AMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor 
  was Trial of scar
  
  You are correct. 
  Prenatal testing is imperfect.  The problem is that women are led to 
  believe that it is and action is taken on the results. It is the doctors who 
  should be careful about making broad statements.  I recently attended a 
  lecture on biophysical profiling given by a doctor doing her Masters in U/S 
  prenatal diagnosis.  She stated that the biophysical profiling was just 
  like a snapshot in time.  It could not predict what would happen 
  tomorrow, nor next week.  Just at the moment it was taken; obviously 
  research is done and extrapolated to the wider group of similar women and that 
  is what we rely on.  By the way, Gloria Lemay is a very experienced 
  American midwife.  She may be referred to as a doula for legal reasons, 
  but she would put most of us to shame with her knowledge and experience. She 
  is also very politically savvy as she has fought for the rights of birthing 
  women for sooo long.  She has also spent time in jail because of her 
  outspoken views.  Do not dismiss her opinions so lightly. 
  MM
   
  
  
  
  
  
  Janet am well aware 
  of the imperfections in technologies used around birth - but I think we need 
  to be careful when we make broad statements.
  

Lower liquor (and remember we 
measure VERY imperfectly) is normal at term - this is 
different from earlier in pregnancy.

Biophysical 
profiling is supposed to give this kind of information but is deeply flawed. 
To whit:

Suspect 
Diagnoses Come with Biophysical Profilinghttp://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/biophysical.asp

- 
Original Message -

RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-10 Thread Mary Murphy 
Title: Message








You are correct. Prenatal testing is imperfect. 
The problem is that women are led to believe that it is and action is taken on
the results. It is the doctors who should be careful about making broad
statements.  I recently attended a lecture on biophysical profiling given
by a doctor doing her Masters in U/S prenatal diagnosis.  She stated that
the biophysical profiling was just like a snapshot in time.  It could not
predict what would happen tomorrow, nor next week.  Just at the moment it
was taken; obviously research is done and extrapolated to the wider group of
similar women and that is what we rely on.  By the way, Gloria Lemay is a
very experienced American midwife.  She may be referred to as a doula for
legal reasons, but she would put most of us to shame with her knowledge and
experience. She is also very politically savvy as she has fought for the rights
of birthing women for sooo long.  She has also spent time in jail because
of her outspoken views.  Do not dismiss her opinions so lightly. MM

 













Janet am well aware of the imperfections
in technologies used around birth - but I think we need to be careful when we
make broad statements.







Lower liquor (and remember we measure VERY imperfectly) is normal at term
- this is different from earlier in pregnancy.





Biophysical
profiling is supposed to give this kind of information but is deeply flawed. To
whit:





Suspect
Diagnoses Come with Biophysical Profiling
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/biophysical.asp





- Original
Message -

RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-10 Thread Lisa Gierke 
Title: Message



Janet 
am well aware of the imperfections in technologies used around birth - but I 
think we need to be careful when we make broad statements about things such as 
'anyone whos of any worth nows that low liquor means bubs is on the way 
shortly'- because this is untrue! It could lead to the very thing that I think 
Heidi was trying to get at about the little bit of knowledge thing.woman 
reads that on a list like this who has low liquor AND IUGR etcI was 
interested in research that showed that this was the case, I guess not just the 
opinion of an American doula but thats OK have done my own lit r/v and answered 
my own questions!!
Regards Lisa

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet 
  FraserSent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:30 PMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor 
  was Trial of scar
  Lower liquor (and 
  remember we measure VERY imperfectly) is normal at term - 
  this is different from earlier in pregnancy.
  Biophysical profiling is supposed 
  to give this kind of information but is deeply flawed. To whit:
  Suspect Diagnoses Come with 
  Biophysical Profilinghttp://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/biophysical.asp
  - Original Message - 

  From: "Lisa Gierke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  To: <ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>
  Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 6:32 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor 
  was Trial of scar
  Am resending this as didn't come thru" on my 
  email. lisaJanet could you please provide us with some references 
  on the low liquorthing? My understanding and experience is that in some 
  cases of severegrowth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously 
  this would beassessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if 
  one has a IUGRfetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low 
  liqour volumes;you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal 
  outcomes such as IUFDetc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and 
  further inutero monitoring.We need to be careful we are not normalising 
  the pathological!Lisa-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Janet FraserSent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of 
  ScarIt just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that 
  stretches so far inpregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And 
  yes, like everyonesays, if those women weren't being carved up no one 
  could come out with thatcrap. It's a bit like the "We have to induce for 
  low liquor" rubbish wheneveryone who's read anything of worth knows that 
  low liquor means bubs is onthe way shortly... Pathologising the utterly 
  normal, again!: )J--This mailing list is sponsored by 
  ACE Graphics.Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or 
unsubscribe.

RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-07 Thread Penny Withers 








Thank-you Janet for that link.

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Janet Fraser
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:30 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low
liquor was Trial of scar



 



Lower liquor (and remember we measure VERY imperfectly) is normal at term
- this is different from earlier in pregnancy.





Biophysical
profiling is supposed to give this kind of information but is deeply flawed. To
whit:





Suspect
Diagnoses Come with Biophysical Profiling
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/biophysical.asp





- Original
Message - 



From: "Lisa
Gierke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>





To: <ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>





Sent: Friday,
July 07, 2006 6:32 PM





Subject:
[ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar







 



Am resending
this as didn't come thru" on my email. lisa


Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor
thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe
growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be
assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR
fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes;
you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD
etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring.
We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological!
Lisa
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet
Fraser
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar


It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in
pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone
says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that
crap. It's a bit like the "We have to induce for low liquor" rubbish
when
everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on
the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again!
: )
J


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Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-07 Thread Janet Fraser 



Lower liquor (and 
remember we measure VERY imperfectly) is normal at term - this 
is different from earlier in pregnancy.
Biophysical profiling is supposed to 
give this kind of information but is deeply flawed. To whit:
Suspect Diagnoses Come with 
Biophysical Profilinghttp://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/biophysical.asp
- Original Message - 
From: "Lisa Gierke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 6:32 
PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was 
Trial of scar
Am resending this as didn't come thru" on my 
email. lisaJanet could you please provide us with some references on 
the low liquorthing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases 
of severegrowth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would 
beassessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a 
IUGRfetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour 
volumes;you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such 
as IUFDetc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero 
monitoring.We need to be careful we are not normalising the 
pathological!Lisa-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of Janet FraserSent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of 
ScarIt just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that 
stretches so far inpregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And 
yes, like everyonesays, if those women weren't being carved up no one could 
come out with thatcrap. It's a bit like the "We have to induce for low 
liquor" rubbish wheneveryone who's read anything of worth knows that low 
liquor means bubs is onthe way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, 
again!: )J--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE 
Graphics.Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or 
unsubscribe.

RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-07 Thread Penny Withers 
Frank breech 37 weeks--3045g ( so a midwife caring for me said very loudly
THAT'S NOT IUGR).
Bilateral hip dyplasia--braced for three weeks and pavlick harness for 8
weeks.  No family history of ddh.  She was squished.
Looking at my tummy was scary it was really little and looked "dry" 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:22 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

Apologies for my terrible spelling!! Lack of sleep due to sick toddler
certainly can affect the brain and the fingers!!!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:19 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar


Hi Penny
Out of interest idi your babe have IUGR? 
Lisa

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Penny Withers
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:11 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar


  Haven't posted before and have only recently started reading here.  So
thanks for all of your interesting comments on a range of issues and
subjects.  I'm interested particularly in this one..I had
oligohydramnios diagnosed at 34 weeks.  An AFI of 2 is not normal in my
experience and three weeks later still no baby ...other measures of fetal
wellbeing all ok.  Had my baby been cephalic I would have accepted
induction.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 6:33 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

Am resending this as didn't come thru" on my email. lisa


Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor
thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe
growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be
assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR
fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes;
you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD
etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring.
We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological! Lisa
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar


It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in
pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone
says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that
crap. It's a bit like the "We have to induce for low liquor" rubbish when
everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on
the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again!
: )
J


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RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-07 Thread Lisa Gierke 
Apologies for my terrible spelling!! Lack of sleep due to sick toddler
certainly can affect the brain and the fingers!!!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:19 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar


Hi Penny
Out of interest idi your babe have IUGR? 
Lisa

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Penny Withers
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:11 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar


  Haven't posted before and have only recently started reading here.  So
thanks for all of your interesting comments on a range of issues and
subjects.  I'm interested particularly in this one..I had
oligohydramnios diagnosed at 34 weeks.  An AFI of 2 is not normal in my
experience and three weeks later still no baby ...other measures of fetal
wellbeing all ok.  Had my baby been cephalic I would have accepted
induction.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 6:33 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

Am resending this as didn't come thru" on my email. lisa


Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor
thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe
growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be
assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR
fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes;
you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD
etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring.
We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological! Lisa
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar


It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in
pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone
says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that
crap. It's a bit like the "We have to induce for low liquor" rubbish when
everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on
the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again!
: )
J


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RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-07 Thread Lisa Gierke 
Hi Penny
Out of interest idi your babe have IUGR? 
Lisa

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Penny Withers
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:11 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar


  Haven't posted before and have only recently started reading here.  So
thanks for all of your interesting comments on a range of issues and
subjects.  I'm interested particularly in this one..I had
oligohydramnios diagnosed at 34 weeks.  An AFI of 2 is not normal in my
experience and three weeks later still no baby ...other measures of fetal
wellbeing all ok.  Had my baby been cephalic I would have accepted
induction.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 6:33 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

Am resending this as didn't come thru" on my email. lisa


Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor
thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe
growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be
assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR
fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes;
you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD
etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring.
We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological! Lisa
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar


It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in
pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone
says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that
crap. It's a bit like the "We have to induce for low liquor" rubbish when
everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on
the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again!
: )
J


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RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-07 Thread Penny Withers 
I got it Lisa the second time  :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 6:33 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

Am resending this as didn't come thru" on my email. lisa


Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor
thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe
growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be
assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR
fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes;
you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD
etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring.
We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological!
Lisa
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar


It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in
pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone
says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that
crap. It's a bit like the "We have to induce for low liquor" rubbish when
everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on
the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again!
: )
J


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RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-07 Thread Penny Withers 
  Haven't posted before and have only recently started reading here.  So
thanks for all of your interesting comments on a range of issues and
subjects.  I'm interested particularly in this one..I had
oligohydramnios diagnosed at 34 weeks.  An AFI of 2 is not normal in my
experience and three weeks later still no baby ...other measures of fetal
wellbeing all ok.  Had my baby been cephalic I would have accepted
induction.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 6:33 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

Am resending this as didn't come thru" on my email. lisa


Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor
thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe
growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be
assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR
fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes;
you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD
etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring.
We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological!
Lisa
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar


It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in
pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone
says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that
crap. It's a bit like the "We have to induce for low liquor" rubbish when
everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on
the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again!
: )
J


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[ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar

2006-07-07 Thread Lisa Gierke 
Am resending this as didn't come thru" on my email. lisa


Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor
thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe
growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be
assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR
fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes;
you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD
etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring.
We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological!
Lisa
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar


It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in
pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone
says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that
crap. It's a bit like the "We have to induce for low liquor" rubbish when
everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on
the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again!
: )
J


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