Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[acastonguay]

From: "Alexandre Castonguay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: pd-list@iem.at
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Hi all, Yves,

Here are some facts may help explain and paint a correct picture of the
convention's gender distribution.

Number of applications received for the exhibition component :

9 (F)
26 (M)

Invitations sent :

6 (F)
12 (M)

Number of applications for performances (* I am unsure as to the gender of
one applicant as we didn't ask people to specify it in their application.)

3 (F)
32 (M)

Invitations sent :

2 (F)
18 (M)

As Andrew Brouse noted, the applications for papers did not carry the
author's names so it makes it hard to get a picture of the gender
breakdown. Out of 46 'papers invitations', 2 were extended to women and I
believe that may unfortunately be the number of applicants?  Andrew may be
able to answer to that.

I believe that the impression Yves got is justified.  It is just that the
community is overwhelmingly male and 'white' (another thread!).  It also
seems that the juries for the papers, exhibition and performances were
conscious of the fact as it is somewhat reflected in the final breakdown
of invitations sent.

Some observations on other parts of this long thread that may yet yield
something positive.

* The component of the convention that had the highest representation of
women applicants was the exhibition. It shows that this form of
contribution is often the way through which women enter the community. It
should be maintained and expanded through other conventions.

* I heard through the application process that some women were intimidated
by the perceived technological sophistication of the pd scene and thought
that their work may not be 'pure' enough to warrant an application. In
that light, dismissing people whose work process calls on external
expertise to be realized does not help with that perception of purity.

* I am personally glad that our efforts of providing better documentation
and access to the software got a renewed push through the work groups and
discussions happening at the convention.

* Building a more representative community will take time and many more
pd-conventions, workshops, efforts through documentation and packaging,
participating in long email threads and chats.  Let's keep in mind that
most of us take part in these efforts because we believe we can make the
community more inclusive, make good work and have fun while doing it.

A bientot,

Alexandre





On Friday 19 October 2007 08:24:26 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> ola,
>
> > Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that
> > matter I know nothing about Yves.  As I said- the original statement was
> > completely untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact.
> >  I honestly did not believe the subject was a problem on this list.
>
> wrong! i sent this after reading 'wettest dream' in a mail from 2 weeks
> ago, but anyway it was 2 years or more that this was going on,
> and was also a general feeling from pd convention
> ( seems work groups were only constituted of men ),
> too bad some people speaking here were not there.
>
> saludos,
> sevy
>
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Alexandre Castonguay]

Hi all, Yves,

Here are some facts may help explain and paint a correct picture of the
convention's gender distribution.

Number of applications received for the exhibition component :

9 (F)
26 (M)

Invitations sent :

6 (F)
12 (M)

Number of applications for performances (* I am unsure as to the gender of
one applicant as we didn't ask people to specify it in their application.)

3 (F)
32 (M)

Invitations sent :

2 (F)
18 (M)

As Andrew Brouse noted, the applications for papers did not carry the
author's names so it makes it hard to get a picture of the gender
breakdown. Out of 46 'papers invitations', 2 were extended to women and I
believe that may unfortunately be the number of applicants?  Andrew may be
able to answer to that.

I believe that the impression Yves got is justified.  It is just that the
community is overwhelmingly male and 'white' (another thread!).  It also
seems that the juries for the papers, exhibition and performances were
conscious of the fact as it is somewhat reflected in the final breakdown
of invitations sent.

Some observations on other parts of this long thread that may yet yield
something positive.

* The component of the convention that had the highest representation of
women applicants was the exhibition. It shows that this form of
contribution is often the way through which women enter the community. It
should be maintained and expanded through other conventions.

* I heard through the application process that some women were intimidated
by the perceived technological sophistication of the pd scene and thought
that their work may not be 'pure' enough to warrant an application. In
that light, dismissing people whose work process calls on external
expertise to be realized does not help with that perception of purity.

* I am personally glad that our efforts of providing better documentation
and access to the software got a renewed push through the work groups and
discussions happening at the convention.

* Building a more representative community will take time and many more
pd-conventions, workshops, efforts through documentation and packaging,
participating in long email threads and chats.  Let's keep in mind that
most of us take part in these efforts because we believe we can make the
community more inclusive, make good work and have fun while doing it.

A bientot,

Alexandre





On Friday 19 October 2007 08:24:26 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> ola,
>
> > Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that
> > matter I know nothing about Yves.  As I said- the original statement was
> > completely untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact.
> >  I honestly did not believe the subject was a problem on this list.
>
> wrong! i sent this after reading 'wettest dream' in a mail from 2 weeks
> ago, but anyway it was 2 years or more that this was going on,
> and was also a general feeling from pd convention
> ( seems work groups were only constituted of men ),
> too bad some people speaking here were not there.
>
> saludos,
> sevy
>
> ___
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Chuckk Hubbard]

On 10/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ola,
>
> > Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that
> matter I
> > know nothing about Yves.  As I said- the original statement was
> completely
> > untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact.  I
> honestly
> > did not believe the subject was a problem on this list.
> >
>
> wrong! i sent this after reading 'wettest dream' in a mail from 2 weeks
> ago,
> but anyway it was 2 years or more that this was going on,
> and was also a general feeling from pd convention
> ( seems work groups were only constituted of men ),
> too bad some people speaking here were not there.


My mistake, I thought you were commenting about this list, not the pd
convention.
I see that post now, thank you for addressing my question.  I don't see eye
to eye with you on this.  I'm not sure there's cause and effect between
someone referring to Christiaan Huygens having wet dreams and there being a
greater number of men than women on this list; and if there is, I suspect
the demographic imbalance is more cause than effect.  I could be wrong, but
I'm not ready to join the crusade.  On the other hand I'm more than ready to
refrain from posting vulgarities myself.
This is one of the most benign, tolerant free software forums I've found.
You should see the #debian IRC channel.  Your children should not!

-Chuckk

-- 
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[ydegoyon]

ola,

> Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that matter I
> know nothing about Yves.  As I said- the original statement was completely
> untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact.  I honestly
> did not believe the subject was a problem on this list.
>

wrong! i sent this after reading 'wettest dream' in a mail from 2 weeks ago,
but anyway it was 2 years or more that this was going on,
and was also a general feeling from pd convention
( seems work groups were only constituted of men ),
too bad some people speaking here were not there.

saludos,
sevy

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Chuckk Hubbard]

On 10/19/07, Charles Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 10/18/07, Chuckk Hubbard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > ola,
> > >
> > > this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here...
> > > i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet ..
> > > you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead
> > > [maybe tired].
> >
> > You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like "wet dream"
> and
> > "gang bang" here every day.  Does this kind of language permeate the
> list
> > whenever I turn my back?  As far as I can tell your statement was a
> > downright lie, and it caused a pretty long thread full of OT arguments.
> > ==troll
>
> OK, I think calling Yves an instigator (ie. trolling) is neither here
> nor there.  It's just some dumb little label.  You know that it
> doesn't add support for or against the point she made.


Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that matter I
know nothing about Yves.  As I said- the original statement was completely
untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact.  I honestly
did not believe the subject was a problem on this list.


> Don't get so caught up on "facts"--the perception and subjective
> experience of discrimination/bias is just as important.


And subjective.  Which is to say anyone can experience it.  The grass is
always greener on the other side.  As a feeling it's perfectly valid, like
all feelings.


and your point is made more clear later on:
>
> > > i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women
> > > feel the need to create their own structures and events,
> > > and why we go straight to separatism,
> > > separate women and men,
> >  .
> > > so why we should have different agendas?
> > > one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore.
>
> which is plainly valid.  Other people have added their experiences
> that give a broader picture of what's going on, and support this
> reason.
>  and outside the art or programming worlds, there is still a great
> need for feminism, whether or not you want to call it that.  I won't
> try to back this up, I don't think I could adequately explain.


Well like I said, I'd rather try to understand the mechanism behind
something than to judge those involved.  IMO you can't have a broader
picture and pronounce judgments at the same time.

-Chuckk

-- 
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Patrice Colet]

Patrice Colet a écrit :

>>> -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound
>>> because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
>>>  
>>>
>> so Zeena Parkins, Laurie Anderson, ... never did anything..
> 
> Yeah! "Superman" is a great (and certainly one of the best) minimalistic 
> audiovisual piece.

  I've made a typo it's Laurie Anderson's "oh superman"

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Patrice Colet]

hey!

Yves Degoyon a écrit :
> ola,

> in fact, i do more of the visuals now
> but we don't use video anymore,
> text is more interesting.
>

I'd like to ask you something*.
  What are you working on?

  Is (and how it is) it related with sound?

>> -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound
>> because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
>>  
>>
> so Zeena Parkins, Laurie Anderson, ... never did anything..

Yeah! "Superman" is a great (and certainly one of the best) minimalistic 
audiovisual piece.

> best,
> sevy

* If you can't answer, no problemo.




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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Charles Henry]

On 10/18/07, Chuckk Hubbard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ola,
> >
> > this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here...
> > i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet ..
> > you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead
> > [maybe tired].
>
> You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like "wet dream" and
> "gang bang" here every day.  Does this kind of language permeate the list
> whenever I turn my back?  As far as I can tell your statement was a
> downright lie, and it caused a pretty long thread full of OT arguments.
> ==troll

OK, I think calling Yves an instigator (ie. trolling) is neither here
nor there.  It's just some dumb little label.  You know that it
doesn't add support for or against the point she made.
Don't get so caught up on "facts"--the perception and subjective
experience of discrimination/bias is just as important.

and your point is made more clear later on:

> > i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women
> > feel the need to create their own structures and events,
> > and why we go straight to separatism,
> > separate women and men,
>  .
> > so why we should have different agendas?
> > one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore.

which is plainly valid.  Other people have added their experiences
that give a broader picture of what's going on, and support this
reason.
 and outside the art or programming worlds, there is still a great
need for feminism, whether or not you want to call it that.  I won't
try to back this up, I don't think I could adequately explain.

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[vade]

In my defense (for my instigative comments earlier in the thread), im  
not macho/sexist in any way, I am simply lewd, loud and obnoxious and  
enjoy cynical humor, because the joke is not the joke, its the fact  
that some genuinely may laugh at it. Some may even call me an  
asshole, but hey, at least I didnt *start* this goddamned thread.  
Anyway if you were offended, too bad. Really, Im not sure where the  
"right" to not be offended comes from, but frankly, if the list (and  
PD by extension) is truly to be open, someones going to be offended -  
get used to it.


I realize one of my responses was sent privately, but I really want  
to say, for the women (and yes, I agree, speaking of women as girls  
is pretty dismissive), on the list that lurk, if you are offended by  
any speech on this list, its your job to speak up, lest it be  
perpetuated. Same goes for any group or individuals. However, I share  
the confusion on where the hell this whole thing came from. Frankly I  
think its a non issue. My opinion may not count though, as I have a  
penis.


But fuck, I really do hate feminism as it is an "ism", and by that I  
mean it has some strange life of its own. I could not be more for  
equality though. Well said.


You know, I showed this thread to my girlfriend, and she basically  
rolled her eyes and laughed at everyone who takes this thread  
seriously. Stop trying to be so goddamned 'fair' and pay more  
attention to user experience in PD, its interface, compatibility and  
improving  the overall experience of *using* the software. Perhaps  
all the *girls*  (GROSS!) are using Max?



On Oct 18, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:


On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
ola,

this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here...
i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet ..
you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead
[maybe tired].

You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like "wet  
dream" and "gang bang" here every day.  Does this kind of language  
permeate the list whenever I turn my back?  As far as I can tell  
your statement was a downright lie, and it caused a pretty long  
thread full of OT arguments.  ==troll



i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women
feel the need to create their own structures and events,
and why we go straight to separatism,
separate women and men,
 .
so why we should have different agendas?
one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore.

I'm not big on macho crap either, and you obviously aren't.  A lot  
of times when people form their own separate structures, it's as  
much shyness as intimidation.  Has THIS happened due to the  
language on this list??


Anyway I don't interpret crass humor as macho.
Is Southpark macho?  Does it repel women?

-Chuckk

--
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com

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v a d e //

www.vade.info
abstrakt.vade.info



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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Chuckk Hubbard]

On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ola,
>
> this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here...
> i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet ..
> you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead
> [maybe tired].


You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like "wet dream" and
"gang bang" here every day.  Does this kind of language permeate the list
whenever I turn my back?  As far as I can tell your statement was a
downright lie, and it caused a pretty long thread full of OT arguments.
==troll


i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women
> feel the need to create their own structures and events,
> and why we go straight to separatism,
> separate women and men,

 .

> so why we should have different agendas?
> one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore.


I'm not big on macho crap either, and you obviously aren't.  A lot of times
when people form their own separate structures, it's as much shyness as
intimidation.  Has THIS happened due to the language on this list??

Anyway I don't interpret crass humor as macho.
Is Southpark macho?  Does it repel women?

-Chuckk

-- 
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Chuckk Hubbard]

On 10/18/07, Kevin McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Equality is equality, and doesn't need another name.  If a man is treated
> > badly for his gender, does he have less right to justice because he is a
> > member of a group less often treated badly?  Maybe not in theory, but in
> > many people's actions, yes.  I believe in equal rights, but I don't believe
> > that is accomplished by focusing on one group of people.
> >
>
> Chuckk, while I can sympathize with this, I would also suggest that the
> goal of many feminists is not equality in the limited sense of "we get the
> same things as men."  I hope that you don't take this as any kind of attack,
> because certainly this is not a reflection on you, but I am almost a little
> bored by that idea.  After a certain point, doesn't the question become -
> how long will we keep chasing and catching up with men?
>

I think it depends when and where you are.  I worked for 6 years with almost
all women coworkers (data entry), and the us vs. them mentality was strong
and loud.  I told a coworker once about a woman in Thailand who had severed
her husband's genitals because she suspected he was cheating; her response:
"Well I guess he won't be cheatin no more."  It was a hostile environment at
times, and this was acknowledged and perfectly okay in some of my coworkers'
minds because so many women at different times had been subjected to hostile
environments by men.  My point about equality is that we're not teams that
need to even some score; maybe that's obvious to most of us, but I suspect
we can't help sliding into that mentality sometimes.  Else genital
mutilation would be equally horrifying in all circumstances.


In my opinion (as a man though), the more interesting varieties of feminism
> also encompass a celebration (or expansion) of femininity.
>

Well said.  That aspect I enjoy, but I still recoil from -isms.


  The "feminine" does not have to be a static, rigid entity either - see
> Donna Harraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto", or feminist responses to
> Deleuze/Guattari's "rhizome".  Economic justice does require some attention
> to the idea of equality, but it must an equality that is aware of
> difference, never turning a blind eye to it.. otherwise, how to address
> inequality?  By turning back to some abstract enlightenment ideal, or by
> attending to the differences?
>

I think the best way is by understanding where it comes from (understanding
is not the same as sympathizing, mind you).  Something so universal
throughout human history can't possibly be coincidence?  Throughout most of
history, survival was something people clung to desperately.  The idea of
sending women on a raid, or to hunt, or to sail across the ocean, was
tantamount to slaughtering the next generation of infants.  On the other
hand, they could send all of the men except one and still have the same
number of young born.
Obviously this is no longer the case in some parts of the world today, and,
even more obviously, most of the disadvantages/horrors brought upon women
based on gender were/are completely irrational if inspired by this line of
thought; but I still think it's the main factor that has caused society to
do these things since forever.  A woman can have one baby a year, a man 365,
and for that baby to be born the woman must be kept from physical danger.
Or whatever else our superstitious, slime-worshiping ancestors thought might
hurt their societies.
Anyway it remains to be seen whether humans can ever live peacefully for any
length of time, and who knows if we'll last another 100 years.  Here's
hoping we all get the same rights as long as we do survive.


Also I am not a computer science type either (as much as I often wish I was,
> my degree is in art, so we are related in the $0 market), but I've been on
> an interesting ride so far in large part because of pd and this
> list/community, for which I am very grateful.  You can tell by my ridiculous
> newbie questions from last summer :)
>
> Also I found the mistake over Patrice really beautiful.
> km
>

Heh, thanks.  I'm male, by the way.
You know, the public transit between Philly and Jersey is called Patco, and
at first I thought I had found another Pd user and Zappa fan in Philly.

-Chuckk

-- 
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Yves Degoyon]

ola,

this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here...
i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet ..
you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead
[maybe tired].

>I didn't start this thread on sexism 
>
i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women
feel the need to create their own structures and events,
and why we go straight to separatism,
separate women and men,
[here don't forget DEBIAN was created
by DEBorah and IAN,
i never knew if this one was a joke ]

so why we should have different agendas?
one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore.

>because I didn't have any particular
>complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
>outside the list:
>
>- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
>yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do
>that  you don't have to do that.
>  
>
+ i never the patches of the _persons_ i worked with before,
i will not start tomorrow.

>-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual
>artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that
>women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
>  
>
in fact, i do more of the visuals now
but we don't use video anymore,
text is more interesting.

>-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound
>because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
>  
>
so Zeena Parkins, Laurie Anderson, ... never did anything..

best,
sevy


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Kevin McCoy]

> Equality is equality, and doesn't need another name.  If a man is treated
> badly for his gender, does he have less right to justice because he is a
> member of a group less often treated badly?  Maybe not in theory, but in
> many people's actions, yes.  I believe in equal rights, but I don't believe
> that is accomplished by focusing on one group of people.
>

Chuckk, while I can sympathize with this, I would also suggest that the goal
of many feminists is not equality in the limited sense of "we get the same
things as men."  I hope that you don't take this as any kind of attack,
because certainly this is not a reflection on you, but I am almost a little
bored by that idea.  After a certain point, doesn't the question become -
how long will we keep chasing and catching up with men?

In my opinion (as a man though), the more interesting varieties of feminism
also encompass a celebration (or expansion) of femininity.  The "feminine"
does not have to be a static, rigid entity either - see Donna Harraway's "A
Cyborg Manifesto", or feminist responses to Deleuze/Guattari's "rhizome".
Economic justice does require some attention to the idea of equality, but it
must an equality that is aware of difference, never turning a blind eye to
it.. otherwise, how to address inequality?  By turning back to some abstract
enlightenment ideal, or by attending to the differences?

Also I am not a computer science type either (as much as I often wish I was,
my degree is in art, so we are related in the $0 market), but I've been on
an interesting ride so far in large part because of pd and this
list/community, for which I am very grateful.  You can tell by my ridiculous
newbie questions from last summer :)

Also I found the mistake over Patrice really beautiful.
km
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Chuckk Hubbard]

On 10/18/07, Patrice Colet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello, just a parenthesis to make things clear, :),
>
> Chuckk Hubbard a écrit :
>
> > I wasn't aware that women didn't participate.  My few exchanges with
> > Patrice convinced me she knows far more than I about computers and
> > especially Pd, but for a year or two I had no idea what her sex was.  As
> > they say in regard to the internet, I still don't REALLY know.
> >
> > BTW, I did remove a number of your comments in replying; I don't mean to
> > erase them, I just had no response.
> >
> > -Chuckk
>
> I've figured out some years ago that in united states 'Patrice' is a
> name given to women, when I've heard about the existence of Patrice
> Zappa, the sister of Frank Zappa.
>   Also this name come from the roman 'pater' which mean 'father', or in
> french 'Patricien'. It's a communauty of people living during ancient
> Rome.
>   I've no idea why my united statesian homologous (sorry didn't find a
> better translation for 'homologue') is a woman.
>

See, I never did inquire as to Patrice's gender...  Sorry for the mistake!
I wish Frank Zappa were alive and posting on this thread...

-Chuckk

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Patrice Colet]

Hello, just a parenthesis to make things clear, :),

Chuckk Hubbard a écrit :

> I wasn't aware that women didn't participate.  My few exchanges with 
> Patrice convinced me she knows far more than I about computers and 
> especially Pd, but for a year or two I had no idea what her sex was.  As 
> they say in regard to the internet, I still don't REALLY know.
> 
> BTW, I did remove a number of your comments in replying; I don't mean to 
> erase them, I just had no response.
> 
> -Chuckk

I've figured out some years ago that in united states 'Patrice' is a 
name given to women, when I've heard about the existence of Patrice 
Zappa, the sister of Frank Zappa.
  Also this name come from the roman 'pater' which mean 'father', or in 
french 'Patricien'. It's a communauty of people living during ancient Rome.
  I've no idea why my united statesian homologous (sorry didn't find a 
better translation for 'homologue') is a woman.

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Chuckk Hubbard]

I see you found the thread yourself, while I was running around trying to
find work instead of staying updated.

On 10/17/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is
> not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we
> face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the
> world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to
> this.


I don't mind femin-, but any -ism tastes nasty to me.  "femin-ism" is,
lexicographically or whatever, one step from "sex-ism".  Equality is
equality, and doesn't need another name.  If a man is treated badly for his
gender, does he have less right to justice because he is a member of a group
less often treated badly?  Maybe not in theory, but in many people's
actions, yes.  I believe in equal rights, but I don't believe that is
accomplished by focusing on one group of people.

Oddly- not speaking of institutions- men are far more often victims of
violent crime than women, at least in my country (worldwide anyone know?).
"They" say a lot that women are most often victimized by people they know,
but leave out that this is still less often than men are victimized.
Occupational fatality, drug addiction, and suicide are traditionally higher
among men, and men have shorter lives worldwide as well.
It is very well-known that, in university, social studies subjects are
filled largely with women and technological and scientific subjects by men,
and that the latter are more well-paid positions.  BUT could this have
something to do with the fact that men are traditionally judged by women
according to their income?  I would far rather study art and history than
mathematics (in fact I did, I have a music degree and make $0 from it, and
often feel ignored on lists like this for my lack of computer science
knowledge).

It's true I know almost nothing about society in any place but North America
and Europe, but I'm really not trying to belittle the ill treatment of
women; I know forced prostitution, for example, still occurs in many places,
probably more often with women/girls.  But I don't believe humans are
anything but animals, and I think, all things considered, they have done
pretty well over the last few hundred years.


I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular
> complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
> outside the list:
>
> - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
> yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do
> that  you don't have to do that.


I think many people would say the exact same thing to me.


> it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that
> would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around
> why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.


I wasn't aware that women didn't participate.  My few exchanges with Patrice
convinced me she knows far more than I about computers and especially Pd,
but for a year or two I had no idea what her sex was.  As they say in regard
to the internet, I still don't REALLY know.

BTW, I did remove a number of your comments in replying; I don't mean to
erase them, I just had no response.

-Chuckk

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Roman Haefeli]

hello again

On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 08:23 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a
> > dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through
> > very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to
> > the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a
> > point.
> 
> thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism
> which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we
> keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
> 
> for example this
> http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
> 
> If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
> to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
> deeper degree in the conversation.

yo, i see. me as well would feel more comfortable without having this
kind of posts in the list. however - and by saying that i don't want to
justify it -  this probably is rather an expression of uneasiness and
anxiety to be accused of sexism too carelessly as a man (not that this
happened on the list, but in general, this is surely an issue as well).

> It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was followed by a
> funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
> 
> I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
> Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some
> practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
> that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed
> and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not
> 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in
> our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
> programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.
> 
> I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem
> was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until
> the end ;)
> 
>  since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
> > serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
> > couldn't be established.
> 
> i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to
> propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile,
> argentina,  ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high
> mountains)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha

what should we say instead of 'cheers'?

> and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is
> not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we
> face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the
> world. 

this is true and very sad. however i don't see the point in discussing
such big world problems in pd-list.

> So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to
> this.
> and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like
> some good internet radio
> 
> http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php

thanks for the link, though i probably need to learn spanish first ;-)
i tried the streams ( http://stream.r23.cc:2323/ranumcri.mp3 ), but i
get:

Server returned 404:File Not Found


> I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular
> complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
> outside the list:
> 
> - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
> yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do
> that  you don't have to do that.
> 
> -once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual
> artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that
> women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
> 
> -once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!)
> 
> -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound
> because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals

what i find really alarming about these examples is the fact, that they
do not only show a form of sexism, that is based on bad using of words,
but, what i think is much more serious, illustrate, how deep certain
concepts of gender are squatted in some brains. i don't know what do
say

> but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that
> participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep
> on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
> 
> it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that
> would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around
> why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.

agreed!

roman




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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of male 
dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not so 
in the computer music world.


It must be quite dependent on the actual school, but I know that not far 
from here, there was a prof who advised a music composition student to 
perform last, because he expected the guys to overdo their own 
performances, in fear of getting a lower score than the "girl" or of 
perhaps of sounding mild in comparison. That's in a less-than-10%-female 
context.


It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint.  A 
friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department 
since she'd always wanted to make things.


Maybe it's just that I'm not so interested in that profession, but as much 
as I've drank while in uni, I would never have enjoyed participating in a 
drinking contest, nor getting pressured into participating. There is also 
one guy who has dropped out after being harassed during all of his first 
semester for skipping the initiation ritual. The macho crap doesn't affect 
only women.


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when 
posting. I know I learned a lesson when I said "hey guys" on this list 
in the past. In California (where I grew up), men and women, feminists 
and not, commonly use "hey guys" to mean all people, not just males. 
Others read that as "hey men", which is certainly not what I meant to 
say...


In English you have it easy.

In French there are the feminists who want profession names be 
gender-specific like "programmeur" vs "programmeuse", because making it 
only "programmeur" would imply inherent maleness, and there are those who 
want it to be always written like "programmeur" because having two 
different forms emphasises gender instead of hiding it.


(I believe that this divide is geographical, with Atlantic being the 
dividing "line", but I'm not sure)


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Vircy Parker]

I propose another Topic, the PoorDeveloppement of PD   :P :D

About this offtopic: please, no sexism, no racism, no specism, that's all





2007/10/17, Hans-Christoph Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
> I forgot to add, I think there are very few people on this list who are
> deliberately trying to exclude people.  There are a wide range of cultures
> involved in this list, and some things that are not a big deal in some
> places are quite offensive in others.  And email is never a good medium
> for communicating subtleties, like tongue-in-cheek, sarcasm, etc.
>
> So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when
> posting.  I know I learned a lesson when I said "hey guys" on this list in
> the past.  In California (where I grew up), men and women, feminists and
> not, commonly use "hey guys" to mean all people, not just males.  Others
> read that as "hey men", which is certainly not what I meant to say...
>
> .hc
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>
>
> You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this list.  Now
> it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere.  I had decided to
> ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had fallen to.
>
> I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho
> programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of
> male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not
> so in the computer music world.  As someone who was raised by a strong
> feminist, I have always wondered what I could do to change that.  So far I
> haven't found an answer, but I am always open to suggestions.
>
> It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint.  A friend
> of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department since she'd
> always wanted to make things.  She was one of few women in the department,
> and was constantly challenged and mocked because she was a woman.  Needless
> to say, she changed departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical
> engineer.  Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well.
>
> .hc
>
> On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I
> don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties
> also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and
> attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not
> want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's
> just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two
> women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real
> "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I
> guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to
> learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't
> be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's
> 2007!!! Not the stone age.
>
> Anyway, thanks everybody.
>
> -Alicia
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> hey ho
>
>
> hi roman
>
>
> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a
> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through
> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to
> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a
> point.
>
>
> thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism
> which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we
> keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
>
> for example this
> http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
>
> If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
> to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
> deeper degree in the conversation.
> It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was followed by a
> funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
>
> I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
> Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some
> practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
> that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed
> and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not
> 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in
> our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
> programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.
>
> I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem
> was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until
> the end ;)
>
>  since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
>
> serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
> couldn't be established.
>
>
> i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I 

Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

I forgot to add, I think there are very few people on this list who  
are deliberately trying to exclude people.  There are a wide range of  
cultures involved in this list, and some things that are not a big  
deal in some places are quite offensive in others.  And email is  
never a good medium for communicating subtleties, like tongue-in- 
cheek, sarcasm, etc.


So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when  
posting.  I know I learned a lesson when I said "hey guys" on this  
list in the past.  In California (where I grew up), men and women,  
feminists and not, commonly use "hey guys" to mean all people, not  
just males.  Others read that as "hey men", which is certainly not  
what I meant to say...


.hc


On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:



You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this  
list.  Now it seems that this thread is actually getting  
somewhere.  I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the  
depths it had fallen to.


I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho  
programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last  
bastions of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at  
least 20% female, not so in the computer music world.  As someone  
who was raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I  
could do to change that.  So far I haven't found an answer, but I  
am always open to suggestions.


It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint.  A  
friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering  
department since she'd always wanted to make things.  She was one  
of few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and  
mocked because she was a woman.  Needless to say, she changed  
departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer.   
Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well.


.hc

On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:


Hi everybody,

Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I
don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties
also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and
attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make  
me not
want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out.  
It's

just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two
women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be  
a real

"jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I
guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to
learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women  
can't

be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's
2007!!! Not the stone age.

Anyway, thanks everybody.

-Alicia

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

hey ho



hi roman


let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread  
in a
dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered  
through
very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at  
all to
the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming  
to a

point.



thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic  
of sexism
which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there.  
gender, we

keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.

for example this
http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html

If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
deeper degree in the conversation.
It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was  
followed by a

funny advertisementlike max msp thread)

I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to  
mention some

practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self  
employed
and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are  
not
'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of  
technology in

our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to  
answer it!.


I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last  
problem
was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that  
thread until

the end ;)

 since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so


serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
couldn't be established.



i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I  
wanted to

propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile,
argentina,  ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high
mountains)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha

and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total  
discredit, is
not fa

Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Roman Haefeli]

On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 23:22 -0700, Alicia Byer wrote:
> Hi everybody,
> 
> Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I 
> don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties 
> also. And as far as the thread making anybody's skin crawl, I agree with 
> Darsh. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about 
> gang-bangs and gross sex make me not want to join in any discussions. 

i think, the best thing you could do about it is to just tell
immediately, if you encounter something, that troubles you. please do
not just ignore it. things can only be changed, if they are
labeled/specifed/named. i can understand, that you would rather stay a
way from such a thread, but by reacting to bad behaviour, the
consciousness of the community about such issues will grow. and i am
pretty sure, that the majority of the list would agree with you. once
this kind of sense is established, i think noone would like to use words
like 'gang bang' in his/her mails anymore. 

roman




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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[bigswift]

most ISMs turn into cottage industries IMHO, feminism is definitely among them
for the record my C++ teacher was a woman, and in Supercollider class we were 
pretty much 50/50 men and women, sharing ideas and helping each other with code.
people make mistakes and students can be cruel, but i no longer hop on board 
with the men are sex obsessed macho turds, aren't they? stance. 
For example: i used to do two benefits a year for the local NOW chapter, 
playing music etc.. Until one year their slogan was "Don;t be a DICK" meaning 
do not abuse women etc..
BUt the members of the group felt they needed to inflict this slogan via pins 
and buttons and whatnot on the MEN present at the function. 

moral: choose your audiences and soapbox carefully 

and try not to post the same reply 3 time if possible!

lol











 Hans-Christoph Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this  
> list.  Now it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere.   
> I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had  
> fallen to.
> 
> I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho  
> programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions  
> of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20%  
> female, not so in the computer music world.  As someone who was  
> raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I could do  
> to change that.  So far I haven't found an answer, but I am always  
> open to suggestions.
> 
> It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint.  A  
> friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering  
> department since she'd always wanted to make things.  She was one of  
> few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and mocked  
> because she was a woman.  Needless to say, she changed departments,  
> but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer.  Sadly, I think that  
> such things happen with Pd a lot as well.
> 
> .hc
> 
> On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:
> 
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I
> > don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties
> > also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and
> > attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make  
> > me not
> > want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out.  
> > It's
> > just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two
> > women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a  
> > real
> > "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I
> > guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to
> > learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't
> > be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's
> > 2007!!! Not the stone age.
> >
> > Anyway, thanks everybody.
> >
> > -Alicia
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>> hey ho
> >>>
> >>
> >> hi roman
> >>
> >>
> >>> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread  
> >>> in a
> >>> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered  
> >>> through
> >>> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at  
> >>> all to
> >>> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming  
> >>> to a
> >>> point.
> >>>
> >>
> >> thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic  
> >> of sexism
> >> which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there.  
> >> gender, we
> >> keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
> >>
> >> for example this
> >> http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
> >>
> >> If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
> >> to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
> >> deeper degree in the conversation.
> >> It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was  
> >> followed by a
> >> funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
> >>
> >> I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
> >> Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to  
> >> mention some
> >> practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
> >> that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self  
> >> employed
> >> and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not
> >> 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of  
> >> technology in
> >> our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
> >> programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to  
> >> answer it!.
> >>
> >> I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last  
> >> problem
> >> was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that  
> >> thread until
> >> the end ;)
> >>
> >>  since this is still a list about pd, 

Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this  
list.  Now it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere.   
I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had  
fallen to.

I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho  
programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions  
of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20%  
female, not so in the computer music world.  As someone who was  
raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I could do  
to change that.  So far I haven't found an answer, but I am always  
open to suggestions.

It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint.  A  
friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering  
department since she'd always wanted to make things.  She was one of  
few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and mocked  
because she was a woman.  Needless to say, she changed departments,  
but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer.  Sadly, I think that  
such things happen with Pd a lot as well.

.hc

On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:

> Hi everybody,
>
> Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I
> don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties
> also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and
> attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make  
> me not
> want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out.  
> It's
> just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two
> women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a  
> real
> "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I
> guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to
> learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't
> be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's
> 2007!!! Not the stone age.
>
> Anyway, thanks everybody.
>
> -Alicia
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> hey ho
>>>
>>
>> hi roman
>>
>>
>>> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread  
>>> in a
>>> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered  
>>> through
>>> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at  
>>> all to
>>> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming  
>>> to a
>>> point.
>>>
>>
>> thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic  
>> of sexism
>> which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there.  
>> gender, we
>> keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
>>
>> for example this
>> http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
>>
>> If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
>> to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
>> deeper degree in the conversation.
>> It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was  
>> followed by a
>> funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
>>
>> I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
>> Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to  
>> mention some
>> practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
>> that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self  
>> employed
>> and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not
>> 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of  
>> technology in
>> our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
>> programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to  
>> answer it!.
>>
>> I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last  
>> problem
>> was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that  
>> thread until
>> the end ;)
>>
>>  since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
>>
>>> serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
>>> couldn't be established.
>>>
>>
>> i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I  
>> wanted to
>> propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile,
>> argentina,  ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high
>> mountains)
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
>>
>> and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total  
>> discredit, is
>> not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal  
>> and we
>> face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas  
>> of the
>> world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to
>> this.
>> and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would  
>> like
>> some good internet radio
>>
>> http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
>>
>> I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any  
>> particular
>> complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
>> outside the list:
>>
>> - once a p

Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Patrice Colet]

.·:*¨¨*:·.darsha.·:*¨¨*:·. a écrit :
> Hi people
> 
> If this thread has to continue please feel free to substitute the word 
> 'girls' for 'women' or 'sisters' even.

all Right! all right! sista!

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Alicia Byer]

Hi everybody,

Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I 
don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties 
also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and 
attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not 
want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's 
just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two 
women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real 
"jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I 
guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to 
learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't 
be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 
2007!!! Not the stone age.

Anyway, thanks everybody.

-Alicia

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> hey ho
>> 
>
> hi roman
>
>   
>> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a
>> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through
>> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to
>> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a
>> point.
>> 
>
> thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism
> which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we
> keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
>
> for example this
> http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
>
> If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
> to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
> deeper degree in the conversation.
> It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was followed by a
> funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
>
> I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
> Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some
> practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
> that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed
> and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not
> 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in
> our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
> programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.
>
> I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem
> was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until
> the end ;)
>
>  since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
>   
>> serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
>> couldn't be established.
>> 
>
> i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to
> propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile,
> argentina,  ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high
> mountains)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
>
> and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is
> not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we
> face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the
> world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to
> this.
> and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like
> some good internet radio
>
> http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
>
> I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular
> complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
> outside the list:
>
> - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
> yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do
> that  you don't have to do that.
>
> -once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual
> artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that
> women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
>
> -once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!)
>
> -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound
> because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
>
> but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that
> participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep
> on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
>
> it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that
> would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around
> why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.
>
>
> Alejandra
>
>
>
>   
>> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
 yves,
 I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
 
>>> (maybe
>>>   
 you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
 
>

Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Alicia Byer]

Hi everybody,

Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I 
don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties 
also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and 
attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not 
want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's 
just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two 
women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real 
"jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I 
guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to 
learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't 
be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 
2007!!! Not the stone age.

Anyway, darsh, I know where you're coming from.

thanks everybody,
Alicia



.·:*¨¨*:·.darsha.·:*¨¨*:·. wrote:
> Hi people
>
> If this thread has to continue please feel free to substitute the word 
> 'girls' for 'women' or 'sisters' even.  I am not sure what the count 
> is but I can imagine that there are very few actual girls on this list 
> (that would be pretty cool though...bunch of lurking little girls, hi, 
> hi).
>
> I am in my mid twenties and I don't really like being called 'girl'.  
> A girl is a female child...  The other women on this list may not 
> agree with this or they may not even care about it one single bit or 
> they may even be annoyed that I am bringing it up (if this is the case 
> then sorry ladies)... 
>
> My little sister who is 15 (and fond of gem) is someone who I consider 
> a girl or maybe even a young ladyIf there were more like her on 
> this list then maybe girl would be the right term...To be honest 
> though, I wouldn't recommend that she join this list at this point in 
> her life...This thread makes my skin crawl.
>
> xo
>
> Darsh
>
> On 10/16/07, *Roman Haefeli* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> hey ho
>
> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a
> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered
> through
> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at
> all to
> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a
> point. since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
> serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
> couldn't be established.
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  wrote:
> > > yves,
> > > I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you
> describe (maybe
> > > you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
> >
> > hi David and all,
> > I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some
> examples
> > of greasy jokes:
>
> yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this
> could be a basis for a real discussion.
>
> > From: João Miguel Pais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
> >
> > - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a
> lightbulb? 2:
> > One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
> > [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a
> > humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last
> weeks]
>
> i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the
> first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that
> insult
> feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt,
> that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to
> provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or
> whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he
> succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the
> list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in
> order to question the ongoing discussion.
>
> accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case,
> though i do
> not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list,
> regardless
> of the intention.
>
> > I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about
> the facts is
> > just a bit too much for me to keep silent.
>
> i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling
> someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
>
> roman
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo!
> Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
>
>
>
> ___
> PD-list@iem.at  mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and acc

Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[pueblo]

> hey ho

hi roman

> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a
> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through
> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to
> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a
> point.

thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism
which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we
keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.

for example this
http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html

If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
deeper degree in the conversation.
It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was followed by a
funny advertisementlike max msp thread)

I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some
practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed
and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not
'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in
our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.

I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem
was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until
the end ;)

 since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
> serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
> couldn't be established.

i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to
propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile,
argentina,  ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high
mountains)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha

and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is
not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we
face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the
world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to
this.
and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like
some good internet radio

http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php

I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular
complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
outside the list:

- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do
that  you don't have to do that.

-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual
artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that
women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.

-once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!)

-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound
because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals

but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that
participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep
on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.

it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that
would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around
why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.


Alejandra



> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> > yves,
>> > I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
>> (maybe
>> > you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
>>
>> hi David and all,
>> I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some
>> examples
>> of greasy jokes:
>
> yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this
> could be a basis for a real discussion.
>
>> From:João Miguel Pais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date:Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
>>
>> - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
>> One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
>> [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a
>> humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]
>
> i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the
> first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult
> feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt,
> that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to
> provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or
> whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he
> succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in t

Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Alicia Byer]

Hi everybody,

Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I 
don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties 
also. And as far as the thread making anybody's skin crawl, I agree with 
Darsh. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about 
gang-bangs and gross sex make me not want to join in any discussions. 
It's just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two 
women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real 
"jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho. It just seems 
dumb. And to whoever it was that said something about "This is how we 
talk on the street", first of all, I don't believe you, and second of 
all, this isn't the street.

Anyway, darsh, I know where you're coming from.

thanks everybody,
Alicia

> On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 00:19 -0400, .·:*¨¨*:·.darsha.·:*¨¨*:·. wrote:
>   
>> Hi people
>>
>> 
> [...]
>   
>> ..This thread makes my skin crawl. 
>>
>> xo
>>
>> Darsh
>> 
>
> could you tell us, what it is, that makes your skin crawl? the fact,
> that there is such a thread at all? the way, it is discussed? the
> mentioned examples of sexism? i am confused.
>
> roman
>
>
>   
>   
> ___ 
> Der fr�he Vogel f�ngt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: 
> http://mail.yahoo.de
>
>
>   
> 
>
> ___
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> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>   


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Roman Haefeli]

On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 00:19 -0400, .·:*¨¨*:·.darsha.·:*¨¨*:·. wrote:
> Hi people
> 
[...]
> ..This thread makes my skin crawl. 
> 
> xo
> 
> Darsh

could you tell us, what it is, that makes your skin crawl? the fact,
that there is such a thread at all? the way, it is discussed? the
mentioned examples of sexism? i am confused.

roman




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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[.·:*¨¨*:·.darsha.·:*¨¨*:·.]

Hi people

If this thread has to continue please feel free to substitute the word
'girls' for 'women' or 'sisters' even.  I am not sure what the count is but
I can imagine that there are very few actual girls on this list (that would
be pretty cool though...bunch of lurking little girls, hi, hi).

I am in my mid twenties and I don't really like being called 'girl'.  A girl
is a female child...  The other women on this list may not agree with this
or they may not even care about it one single bit or they may even be
annoyed that I am bringing it up (if this is the case then sorry ladies)...


My little sister who is 15 (and fond of gem) is someone who I consider a
girl or maybe even a young ladyIf there were more like her on this list
then maybe girl would be the right term...To be honest though, I wouldn't
recommend that she join this list at this point in her life...This thread
makes my skin crawl.

xo

Darsh

On 10/16/07, Roman Haefeli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> hey ho
>
> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a
> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through
> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to
> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a
> point. since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
> serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
> couldn't be established.
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > yves,
> > > I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
> (maybe
> > > you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
> >
> > hi David and all,
> > I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some
> examples
> > of greasy jokes:
>
> yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this
> could be a basis for a real discussion.
>
> > From: João Miguel Pais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
> >
> > - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
> > One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
> > [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a
> > humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]
>
> i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the
> first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult
> feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt,
> that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to
> provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or
> whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he
> succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the
> list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in
> order to question the ongoing discussion.
>
> accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case, though i do
> not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list, regardless
> of the intention.
>
> > I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts
> is
> > just a bit too much for me to keep silent.
>
> i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling
> someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
>
> roman
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> http://mail.yahoo.de
>
>
>
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-- 
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Roman Haefeli]

hey ho

let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a
dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through
very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to
the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a
point. since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
couldn't be established.

On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > yves,
> > I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe (maybe
> > you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
> 
> hi David and all,
> I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some examples
> of greasy jokes:

yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this
could be a basis for a real discussion. 

> From: João Miguel Pais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
> 
> - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
> One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
> [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a
> humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]

i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the
first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult
feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt,
that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to
provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or
whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he
succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the
list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in
order to question the ongoing discussion.

accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case, though i do
not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list, regardless
of the intention. 

> I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts is
> just a bit too much for me to keep silent.

i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling
someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here. 

roman
 




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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Charles Henry]

> there's no 'PLEASE STOP' there is 'YES PLEASE HURT ME!',
> that's all we can take here.

That's funny... "yes please hurt me" is also my "safe word"
(just a little joke to illustrate how some 'fringe' vernacular enters
into common usage... we all know what that means)

but it is really kind of important to consider how types of jargon
become common usage, despite having sexist or ethnocentric overtones
(resulting in an inharmonic series of posts... see "gang bang" or
"mongolian hordes technique").

I think we could have had a constructive conversation about sexism on
the pd-list, but argumentative and egotistical comments dominated
things.  It's not a good way to persuade other people, or get to the
core of the matter.

I think you can see that many people care about the creation of an
intolerant culture on pd-list which discourages other people.  But the
thread was just not helping.

in the absence of anything constructive, I'd rather talk about beer.  Yes, beer.

Chuck

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[pueblo]

> yves,
> I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe (maybe
> you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))

hi David and all,
I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some examples
of greasy jokes:

From:   João Miguel Pais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:   Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm

- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
[I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a
humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]


I am not old enough to consider this a joke and I am quite old ;-) but ok
I also know I don't have a good sense of humor


Subject:Re: [PD] about pd
From:   "Andy Farnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:   Fri, October 12, 2007 5:15 am

Edmund:   Baldrick, fetch my Incredibly Strong Ale...!

Monk:  Good god!  Not Dr McGloo's Amber Enema...?

Edmund:  Pah! -- a drink for schoolgirls...

Partridge:  Surely not Strollop's Lobster Scrumpy...?

Edmund:  No -- it is Blackadder's Bowel Basher!


\runs off singing "I'm Merlin, The Happy Pig!"

and not to forget the call for 'sexy' externals included in some mail that
I will not repeat.

I am very sorry to keep on with this discussion but I would like to ask
the list to consider that some of us are trying to use the mailing list as
an educational resource, so when there are toasts for school girls, and
some consensus about laughing together on silly anti feminist jokes just
to name a few factors... err I don't think this works anymore.

I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts is
just a bit too much for me to keep silent.

best,
Alejandra



>> so to hell if you're not concerned how girls are treated
>> in the pd community ( actually just as meat and object of greasy jokes
>> ),
>> so again, yeh, sorry, they won't participate to nothing here!
>
>
> yves,
> I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe (maybe
> you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :)) In my
> experience the discussion here is respectful and helpful, and it's
> *usually*
> about PD... I agree that there's no point in agitating to prematurely end
> a
> relevant discussion - but personally I got bored a while ago, and I don't
> think this thread is on-topic anymore (bored/irritated != disturbed). I
> think it would be a better use of everyone's time to get back to
> discussing
> Pure Data.
> best,
> -David M.
> --
> MIT Media Lab
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://web.media.mit.edu/~dmerrill/
> 
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[David Merrill]

> so to hell if you're not concerned how girls are treated
> in the pd community ( actually just as meat and object of greasy jokes ),
> so again, yeh, sorry, they won't participate to nothing here!


yves,
I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe (maybe
you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :)) In my
experience the discussion here is respectful and helpful, and it's *usually*
about PD... I agree that there's no point in agitating to prematurely end a
relevant discussion - but personally I got bored a while ago, and I don't
think this thread is on-topic anymore (bored/irritated != disturbed). I
think it would be a better use of everyone's time to get back to discussing
Pure Data.
best,
-David M.
-- 
MIT Media Lab
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://web.media.mit.edu/~dmerrill/ 
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[ydegoyon]

Derek Holzer wrote:

> As Roman already so eloquently suggested
>
> EVERYONE PLEASE STOP THIS NOW.
>
> You're all adults enough that no one needs to get the last word in. I hope.
>
> Thanks,
> derek
>
> --
> derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista
> ---Oblique Strategy # 164:
> "Twist the spine"
>
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>
>
sorry, _nobody_ can stop a discussion here,
and not in this authoritative way...
( except if it _disturbs_ you,
which is kind of revelating )

there's no 'PLEASE STOP' there is 'YES PLEASE HURT ME!',
that's all we can take here.

i was disconnected for some days,
but you might know more soon.

and as derek yourself you said once : 'thank you, pueblo!'
( for downloading objects from her site )
so to hell if you're not concerned how girls are treated
in the pd community ( actually just as meat and object of greasy jokes ),
so again, yeh, sorry, they won't participate to nothing here!

from the south,
sevy


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Derek Holzer]

I don't want to get dragged into this at all, I'm just asking that you 
take the discussion someplace else. The PD-OT list, for example. Or your 
favorite IRC channel, or whatever. This list really doesn't need to get 
clogged up with all this discussion about political correctness, or 
anything else that's totally unrelated to PD.

Thanks,
d.

Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
> Seems to me it's been a pretty civil discussion.  Way off-topic, 
> definitely, but not terribly aggressive.
> I don't understand telling people not to talk about something.  Whether 
> or not we are all adults, we are all capable of deciding for ourselves 
> what we want to say and read.
> 
> -Chuckk
> 
> 
> On 10/11/07, *Derek Holzer* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 
> wrote:
> 
> As Roman already so eloquently suggested
> 
> EVERYONE PLEASE STOP THIS NOW.
> 
> You're all adults enough that no one needs to get the last word in.
> I hope.
> 
> Thanks,
> derek
> 
> --
> derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl :::
> http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista
> ---Oblique Strategy # 164:
> "Twist the spine"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista
---Oblique Strategy # 187:
"Would anybody want it?"

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Chuckk Hubbard]

Seems to me it's been a pretty civil discussion.  Way off-topic, definitely,
but not terribly aggressive.
I don't understand telling people not to talk about something.  Whether or
not we are all adults, we are all capable of deciding for ourselves what we
want to say and read.

-Chuckk


On 10/11/07, Derek Holzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> As Roman already so eloquently suggested
>
> EVERYONE PLEASE STOP THIS NOW.
>
> You're all adults enough that no one needs to get the last word in. I
> hope.
>
> Thanks,
> derek
>
> --
> derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl :::
> http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista
> ---Oblique Strategy # 164:
> "Twist the spine"
>



-- 
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

[Derek Holzer]

As Roman already so eloquently suggested

EVERYONE PLEASE STOP THIS NOW.

You're all adults enough that no one needs to get the last word in. I hope.

Thanks,
derek

--
derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista
---Oblique Strategy # 164:
"Twist the spine"

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is BORING

[Chuckk Hubbard]

On 10/11/07, marius schebella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> jared wrote:
> > if its so fucking
> > bad why would you want to visit?
>
> Some people have the hope, the true situation would not be so depressing.


I think Europeans and Americans see American as bad in an abstract sense, in
the sense of what it does to people who aren't there.  All the more reason
to go there.  It's bad in the abstract, but pretty useful in the short term.

> .but who
> > is worse: the Idiot, or the guy who follows the idiot?
>
> except for romania, there are not so many countries in the world, who
> follow the US at the moment.


Ouch!  I just moved to Romania from the US...
But I don't think the question is what the government of a country endorses,
it's a question of the social attitude and the - all together now -
opportunity.  I suspect most non-Americans who go to the US do so hoping to
benefit themselves, more than to enjoy the culture of the average citizens.


> I didn't vote for Bush...neither did half of the American
> > voters...that's over 150 million United States citizens who didn't vote
> > for Bush
>
> I am not sure, how you calculate this. because in 2000 50mio people
> voted for bush. which means 250mio citizens (including children and
> non-voters) did not. 51mio voters voted actively against bush, 249 mio
> citizens did not... (only 101mio people actively voted.)
> for years later (due to his successful policy...), 62mio voted for bush.
> marius.


Yes, alas, there may be 300 million citizens, but far less eligible voters,
and even less active voters.  But perhaps the number who didn't vote present
an even worse picture of American culture than the number who voted for
Bush.

-Chuckk

-- 
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Bryan Jurish]

On 2007-10-10 16:53:33, "Martin Peach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
appears to have written:
> 'Barbarian'
> is another word that didn't mean anything bad at first...and 'windows' ;)

afaik, "barbarian" is derived from ancient Greek for "foreigner", a
'foreigner' being defined basically as 'someone who doesn't speek
Greek', hence the term "barbarian", since all these folks could say
(according to the originatal users of the word 'barbarian') was "ba ba
ba ba ba"... i dunno about you folks, but i think that's a pretty heavy
etymological load to carry; certainly heavier than "horde"...

marmosets,
Bryan

-- 
Bryan Jurish   "There is *always* one more bug."
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  -Lubarsky's Law of Cybernetic Entomology

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is BORING

[jared]

jared wrote:
> if its so fucking
> bad why would you want to visit?  

Some people have the hope, the true situation would not be so
depressing.

Hope?  Please.  The conversations that I was talking about,
these people weren't talking about 'hope'...they were flat out  trashing
the American people and government...and being very angry   about
it...it was funny because they knew I was American and they seemed
to be trying to upset me...they were surprised that, for themost
part, I agreed with everything they said...i think some people  forget
that no one is more angry at the American government than the   American
peopledid you happen to see or hear about the many  marches and
protests against Bush after he was elected?  I was in   Europe after
Bush's second election and I didn't see or hear anythingabout
the protests of the American people.  The media outlets there   seemed
to be happy with portraying all US citizens as stupid idiotswho were
sheep in the Bush flockgod, for the most part, the mediathere is
worse than it is here...and that is saying something...

> .but who
> is worse: the Idiot, or the guy who follows the idiot?

except for romania, there are not so many countries in the world, who 
follow the US at the moment.

Good news there

> I didn't vote for Bush...neither did half of the American
> voters...that's over 150 million United States citizens who didn't
vote
> for Bush 

I am not sure, how you calculate this. because in 2000 50mio people 
voted for bush. which means 250mio citizens (including children and 
non-voters) did not. 51mio voters voted actively against bush, 249 mio 
citizens did not... (only 101mio people actively voted.)
for years later (due to his successful policy...), 62mio voted for bush.
marius.

Okay, my numbers are wrong...but you get my point, don't you?
So, say, 51 million people voted AGAINST BUSH in 2000...51 million
is  nearly the total population of Italy, or France...My point is
that51 million is a lot of people to ignorantly lump into the Fat,
American Cowboy Bush voter category.

peace


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is BORING

[marius schebella]

jared wrote:
> if its so fucking
> bad why would you want to visit?  

Some people have the hope, the true situation would not be so depressing.

> .but who
> is worse: the Idiot, or the guy who follows the idiot?

except for romania, there are not so many countries in the world, who 
follow the US at the moment.

> I didn't vote for Bush...neither did half of the American
> voters...that's over 150 million United States citizens who didn't vote
> for Bush 

I am not sure, how you calculate this. because in 2000 50mio people 
voted for bush. which means 250mio citizens (including children and 
non-voters) did not. 51mio voters voted actively against bush, 249 mio 
citizens did not... (only 101mio people actively voted.)
for years later (due to his successful policy...), 62mio voted for bush.
marius.

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is BORING

[jared]

I'm from the statesi've spent a lot of time overseasi find it
hilarious that, on several different occasions, I've been in
conversations with Europeans who would talk bad about the USthen,
after talking shit for an hour, they always end the conversation with,
"yeah, I'm going to the US in a couple of weeks"if its so fucking
bad why would you want to visit?  

I often hear Europeans bitching about how fat and stupid the American
culture iswell, every European country I've visited has had a
McDonalds, and there is always line of people ready to feed their
facesdon't blame the American cultureblame your citizens who
keep the American companies in businessdon't get me wrong, the
American culture is FULL of ignorancesure, we are idiots.but who
is worse: the Idiot, or the guy who follows the idiot?

I didn't vote for Bush...neither did half of the American
voters...that's over 150 million United States citizens who didn't vote
for Bush and his foreign policy (and domestic policies)...so please,
don't lump everyone togetherMake love not war!  

:-)

peace


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:43 PM
To: pd-list@iem.at
Subject: Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is BORING

wow, only a few pages before the inevitable usa bashing.

BORING.

last i checked the primary developer of pd was an american, yes?









 marius schebella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
> 
> >> Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and
the 
> >> "war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time.  It doesn't
mean 
> >> they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
> > 
> > Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
> 
> why? I think because USamericans are fearful people. they are fearful,

> because they never learned to talk about their problematic history. 
> genocide and slavery. they just inherit the guilty consciousness 
> unprocessed from generation to generation. therefor they only feel
safe, 
> when they are protected by a big brother. they live with the idea of
the 
> survival of the fittest (make the rich richer). they never gave black 
> people compensation for their exploitation (nor any other group). as a

> matter of fact this is not only US history, but western history in 
> general, but european countries experienced worldwar II and I think
they 
> changed their way on communal thinking about racism and so on. there
was 
> some shift in common notion and also the wish to keep this notion
alive.
> USamericans subconsciously still fear revenge. and even worse, some of

> them even think it is a good idea to have a small, rich, educated 
> leading elite that controls the big majority of people. they propose a

> free market, which I see rather as a free slave market, because 
> preconditions are not fair at all for all people. they try to oppress 
> every effort of union building and their voting system is a "the
winner 
> takes it all". in europe it took green parties more than 20 years to 
> make it into gouvernments. in the US this is not possible, because
with 
> anything less than 50% you are nothing.
> and of course the US has a media that is owned by a handful of people,

> and an education system including universities that aligns itself more

> to the needs of companies and corporations than to the values of life.
> that's why "they" still vote for one of the two big parties.
> with the fall of the dollar, the raise of china, some bank crashs,
more 
> and more unemployed people, no health care, no social security I think

> people will start to vote differently within the the next 10-20 years.
> marius.
> 
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--
Patrick Pagano
Sound and Light Technologist
School of Theatre and Dance
University of Florida



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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is BORING

[eric labelle]

shouldn't have singled anyone out like that...my apologies it's just this
whole nonesense is getting to me after the x number of days it has lasted
and gone nowhere.

2007/10/10, eric labelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> just noticed...a bouchard flaming an american for his peoples Genocide?
> Where were your ancestors when the french starved the iroquois into peace in
> new france man?
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: eric labelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 10 oct. 2007 18:50
> Subject: Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is BORING
> To: " [EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> this whole facking thread is boring...the american bashing is the only
> thing keeping me on a list that would tolerate such flagrant abuse of
> people's time and bandwidth. Wow to hear them go at it they seem to take
> themselves seriously which is great...hack a bit of software and hold the
> key!! Hackers unite right?
>
> 2007/10/10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > wow, only a few pages before the inevitable usa bashing.
> >
> > BORING.
> >
> > last i checked the primary developer of pd was an american, yes?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  marius schebella < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and
> > the
> > > >> "war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time.  It doesn't
> > mean
> > > >> they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
> > >
> > > why? I think because USamericans are fearful people. they are fearful,
> >
> > > because they never learned to talk about their problematic history.
> > > genocide and slavery. they just inherit the guilty consciousness
> > > unprocessed from generation to generation. therefor they only feel
> > safe,
> > > when they are protected by a big brother. they live with the idea of
> > the
> > > survival of the fittest (make the rich richer). they never gave black
> > > people compensation for their exploitation (nor any other group). as a
> >
> > > matter of fact this is not only US history, but western history in
> > > general, but european countries experienced worldwar II and I think
> > they
> > > changed their way on communal thinking about racism and so on. there
> > was
> > > some shift in common notion and also the wish to keep this notion
> > alive.
> > > USamericans subconsciously still fear revenge. and even worse, some of
> > > them even think it is a good idea to have a small, rich, educated
> > > leading elite that controls the big majority of people. they propose a
> > > free market, which I see rather as a free slave market, because
> > > preconditions are not fair at all for all people. they try to oppress
> > > every effort of union building and their voting system is a "the
> > winner
> > > takes it all". in europe it took green parties more than 20 years to
> > > make it into gouvernments. in the US this is not possible, because
> > with
> > > anything less than 50% you are nothing.
> > > and of course the US has a media that is owned by a handful of people,
> > > and an education system including universities that aligns itself more
> > > to the needs of companies and corporations than to the values of life.
> >
> > > that's why "they" still vote for one of the two big parties.
> > > with the fall of the dollar, the raise of china, some bank crashs,
> > more
> > > and more unemployed people, no health care, no social security I think
> >
> > > people will start to vote differently within the the next 10-20 years.
> > > marius.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > PD-list@iem.at mailing list
> > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> >
> > --
> > Patrick Pagano
> > Sound and Light Technologist
> > School of Theatre and Dance
> > University of Florida
> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Chuckk Hubbard]

On 10/10/07, Mathieu Bouchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure which culture is "our" culture,
>
> In this context, it would be all the west-european, canadian, australian,
> nz, usa, ... mostly that.


That sounds more like hundreds of cultures, about which one person couldn't
speak authoritatively without doing lots of traveling first.


> Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and the
> > "war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time.  It doesn't mean
> > they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
>
> Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?


Because they don't believe anyone else will win.  Also, though they don't
necessarily buy the Axis of Evil stuff, they do buy lots of other things,
including shoes made in Mexico and everything else made in China, and
perhaps it is true that most don't want to think too hard about certain
things.

-Chuckk


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is BORING

[bigswift]

wow, only a few pages before the inevitable usa bashing.

BORING.

last i checked the primary developer of pd was an american, yes?









 marius schebella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
> 
> >> Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and the 
> >> "war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time.  It doesn't mean 
> >> they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
> > 
> > Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
> 
> why? I think because USamericans are fearful people. they are fearful, 
> because they never learned to talk about their problematic history. 
> genocide and slavery. they just inherit the guilty consciousness 
> unprocessed from generation to generation. therefor they only feel safe, 
> when they are protected by a big brother. they live with the idea of the 
> survival of the fittest (make the rich richer). they never gave black 
> people compensation for their exploitation (nor any other group). as a 
> matter of fact this is not only US history, but western history in 
> general, but european countries experienced worldwar II and I think they 
> changed their way on communal thinking about racism and so on. there was 
> some shift in common notion and also the wish to keep this notion alive.
> USamericans subconsciously still fear revenge. and even worse, some of 
> them even think it is a good idea to have a small, rich, educated 
> leading elite that controls the big majority of people. they propose a 
> free market, which I see rather as a free slave market, because 
> preconditions are not fair at all for all people. they try to oppress 
> every effort of union building and their voting system is a "the winner 
> takes it all". in europe it took green parties more than 20 years to 
> make it into gouvernments. in the US this is not possible, because with 
> anything less than 50% you are nothing.
> and of course the US has a media that is owned by a handful of people, 
> and an education system including universities that aligns itself more 
> to the needs of companies and corporations than to the values of life.
> that's why "they" still vote for one of the two big parties.
> with the fall of the dollar, the raise of china, some bank crashs, more 
> and more unemployed people, no health care, no social security I think 
> people will start to vote differently within the the next 10-20 years.
> marius.
> 
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University of Florida



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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Chuckk Hubbard]

On 10/10/07, marius schebella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
>
> >> Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and the
> >> "war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time.  It doesn't mean
> >> they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
> >
> > Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?
>
> why? I think because USamericans are fearful people. they are fearful,
> because they never learned to talk about their problematic history.
> genocide and slavery. they just inherit the guilty consciousness
> unprocessed from generation to generation. therefor they only feel safe,
> when they are protected by a big brother. they live with the idea of the
> survival of the fittest (make the rich richer). they never gave black
> people compensation for their exploitation (nor any other group). as a
> matter of fact this is not only US history, but western history in
> general, but european countries experienced worldwar II and I think they
> changed their way on communal thinking about racism and so on.


Well I've only lived in the US and Romania, but Romania is Europe; and they
are way way behind the US on racism, sexism, gay rights, etc.  The Roma
pretty much all live like animals.
I think your reasons are broad generalizations.  Well, most of them anyway.

-Chuckk


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Andy Farnell]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 00:18:10 -0400
Chris McCormick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> For example, the British Empire
> covered more land than the Mongolian Empire ever did

Yeah Bitches!



... what? :)

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Martin Peach]

Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
>
>On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
>
>>It also seems to me that hacker culture uses lots of terms 
>>tongue-in-cheek, and that a reference to Mongolian hordes may even be, in 
>>some folks' minds, a jab at the Westerners who coined the term.
>
>Man. I just said. "Mongolian horde" is a term most likely coined by 
>Mongolian hordes. The term has been adapted to fit many languages and 
>eventually reached English.
>
Yes, 'nigger' is derived from a word meaning 'black', so where's the 
problem? Words change their meaning over time. I would bet most english 
speakers don't know the origin of 'horde' and just use it to denote 'a large 
number of unpleasant entities', as in 'hordes of cockroaches'. 'Barbarian' 
is another word that didn't mean anything bad at first...and 'windows' ;)

Martin



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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[marius schebella]

Mathieu Bouchard wrote:

>> Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and the 
>> "war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time.  It doesn't mean 
>> they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.
> 
> Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?

why? I think because USamericans are fearful people. they are fearful, 
because they never learned to talk about their problematic history. 
genocide and slavery. they just inherit the guilty consciousness 
unprocessed from generation to generation. therefor they only feel safe, 
when they are protected by a big brother. they live with the idea of the 
survival of the fittest (make the rich richer). they never gave black 
people compensation for their exploitation (nor any other group). as a 
matter of fact this is not only US history, but western history in 
general, but european countries experienced worldwar II and I think they 
changed their way on communal thinking about racism and so on. there was 
some shift in common notion and also the wish to keep this notion alive.
USamericans subconsciously still fear revenge. and even worse, some of 
them even think it is a good idea to have a small, rich, educated 
leading elite that controls the big majority of people. they propose a 
free market, which I see rather as a free slave market, because 
preconditions are not fair at all for all people. they try to oppress 
every effort of union building and their voting system is a "the winner 
takes it all". in europe it took green parties more than 20 years to 
make it into gouvernments. in the US this is not possible, because with 
anything less than 50% you are nothing.
and of course the US has a media that is owned by a handful of people, 
and an education system including universities that aligns itself more 
to the needs of companies and corporations than to the values of life.
that's why "they" still vote for one of the two big parties.
with the fall of the dollar, the raise of china, some bank crashs, more 
and more unemployed people, no health care, no social security I think 
people will start to vote differently within the the next 10-20 years.
marius.

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, john saylor wrote:

On 10/10/07, Mathieu Bouchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?

not all of us do!
there are still some of us on the lunatic fringe


No, I don't mean lunatic fringe. I mean especially parties that are not 
considered fringe and especially not lunatic.


In both Canada and Québec it's easy to get widespread coverage for the 3 
top parties, and then 5 parties have at least 3% of the total vote each. 
But that's not an isolated case - Europe has had that for a long time too.


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[john saylor]

hey

On 10/10/07, Mathieu Bouchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?

not all of us do!

there are still some of us on the lunatic fringe although you won't
hear about any of it in the corporate media. and although the anti-war
movement keeps growing the two big money political parties don't want
to touch it [because the war is all about big money] ...

this country [usa] needs an enema! [or at least an impeachment]

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chuckk Hubbard wrote:


I'm not sure which culture is "our" culture,


In this context, it would be all the west-european, canadian, australian, 
nz, usa, ... mostly that.


It also seems to me that hacker culture uses lots of terms 
tongue-in-cheek, and that a reference to Mongolian hordes may even be, 
in some folks' minds, a jab at the Westerners who coined the term.


Man. I just said. "Mongolian horde" is a term most likely coined by 
Mongolian hordes. The term has been adapted to fit many languages and 
eventually reached English.


Americans today make ironic references to the "Axis of Evil" and the 
"war on terror" and "homeland security" all the time.  It doesn't mean 
they buy it, even if the media makes it seem that way.


Yeah but why do they still vote for one of the two big parties?

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Olivier Heinry]

Le mercredi 10 octobre 2007 à 02:18 -0400, Mathieu Bouchard a écrit :
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
> 
> > implying that the phrase "Mongolian hordes" represents a historically 
> > valid viewpoint is perpetuating a western-biased (racist) falsehood.
> 
> "horde" is not a viewpoint. It's a noun. It means "political subdivision 
> of a (central asian) nomadic people". It comes for Turkic "orda" meaning a 
> Khan's residence.
> 
> > The mere fact that everyone knows what we're talking about when we say 
> > "mongolian hordes"
> 
> If you use political correctness to get a word loaded with connotations to 
> be replaced by a brand new word, the old connotations tend to be carried 
> over to the new word. Thus those are not so much properties of a specific 
> word, than a topic of public opinion. This is something that is best fixed 
> by education and not by "dictionary engineering".
> 
> > whilst there is no similar widespread cliche for western invaders in our 
> > culture is testament to this fact.

Fair use of political correctness:
 I read an article about US Restaurants renaming "French fries" into
"Liberty fries" (although most French think fries originate from
Belgium ;-), I suggest we rewrite "Mongolian hordes" into "Liberty
hordes".

bye.

O.


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Chuckk Hubbard]

On 10/10/07, Mathieu Bouchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
> > whilst there is no similar widespread cliche for western invaders in our
> > culture is testament to this fact.
>
> I believe that "colonialism" and "imperialism" are widespread words,
> concepts and clichés, that are loaded by several centuries of history.


Absolutely.  I'm not sure which culture is "our" culture, but in mine I have
read and heard more bad about the white invaders than any others, especially
Mongolians.  The fact that Europeans were ever enslaved by Africans is
almost completely gone from history books or general knowledge.  The notion
that Europeans savagely trampled a world full of peaceful, altruistic people
throughout history seems to be pretty widespread.
It also seems to me that hacker culture uses lots of terms tongue-in-cheek,
and that a reference to Mongolian hordes may even be, in some folks' minds,
a jab at the Westerners who coined the term.  Americans today make ironic
references to the "Axis of Evil" and the "war on terror" and "homeland
security" all the time.  It doesn't mean they buy it, even if the media
makes it seem that way.

-Chuckk

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Chris McCormick]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 02:18:00AM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
> >implying that the phrase "Mongolian hordes" represents a historically 
> >valid viewpoint is perpetuating a western-biased (racist) falsehood.
> 
> "horde" is not a viewpoint. It's a noun. It means "political subdivision 
> of a (central asian) nomadic people". It comes for Turkic "orda" meaning a 
> Khan's residence.

I stand corrected.

> >The mere fact that everyone knows what we're talking about when we say 
> >"mongolian hordes"
> 
> If you use political correctness to get a word loaded with connotations to 
> be replaced by a brand new word, the old connotations tend to be carried 
> over to the new word. Thus those are not so much properties of a specific 
> word, than a topic of public opinion. This is something that is best fixed 
> by education and not by "dictionary engineering".

I did not advocate "dictionary engineering".

Best,

Chris.


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:

implying that the phrase "Mongolian hordes" represents a historically 
valid viewpoint is perpetuating a western-biased (racist) falsehood.


"horde" is not a viewpoint. It's a noun. It means "political subdivision 
of a (central asian) nomadic people". It comes for Turkic "orda" meaning a 
Khan's residence.


The mere fact that everyone knows what we're talking about when we say 
"mongolian hordes"


If you use political correctness to get a word loaded with connotations to 
be replaced by a brand new word, the old connotations tend to be carried 
over to the new word. Thus those are not so much properties of a specific 
word, than a topic of public opinion. This is something that is best fixed 
by education and not by "dictionary engineering".


whilst there is no similar widespread cliche for western invaders in our 
culture is testament to this fact.


I believe that "colonialism" and "imperialism" are widespread words, 
concepts and clichés, that are loaded by several centuries of history.



A little. The conflict is similar to that in Australia. There are many
sides and they usually concern the ownership of traditional lands:


You could add:

 * passive-aggressive government wants to make programme initiated by
   previous government look bad

 * fear that it legitimises (or opens a can of worms on) some completely
   unreasonable claims, such as ownership of areas that are no longer
   usable for traditional purposes and that may have already been
   compensated for in a previous treaty, ...

that's what I can think about. I'm not taking any side, because I don't 
know about the issues, I only listed some forces that I would guess tend 
to have a lot of influence on policy.


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Chris McCormick]

On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 12:51:14AM -0400, vade wrote:
> Because the Mongolians did it so much better as to be noteworthy?

It depends what you mean by 'better'. For example, the British Empire
covered more land than the Mongolian Empire ever did, and that's just
one arm of the European invasion of the rest of the world. The British
Empire also ruled over far more people; roughly one quater of the world's
entire population at the beginning of the 20th century.

If by 'better' you mean "more ruthless" then you need to read more
history. First hand accounts by the Spanish invaders into parts of
South America brag unashamedly about deceiving and slaughtering the
local peoples. Slave ships (I don't need to say any more on that one).
The way in which the Aboriginal people of Australia, Canada, and the USA
were treated by the first settlers in these places. The list is very
long. There is a lot more debate about how civil the ancient Mongolians
were than there is about how the later Europeans treated the people
they invaded, possibly because Europeans kept better written records,
whilst the records of Mongolian invasion were all kept by people who
were being invaded.

As with all history, it's very complicated, but my point is that we
only refer to the "Mongolian hordes" because we are biased towards a
pro-western way of thinking. That is most definately ignorant, and
probably racist.

Best,

Chris.

> And  
> dont forget the Vikings, we were pretty legendary. Then the damn  
> Christians tamed us.
> 
> But im also an American citizen (my mother is Scandinavian), so you  
> have my explicit permission to speak of the current American Hordes,  
> should you need to specify any group of people with a  
> "horde"/"Invasion"/"rape"/"torture" analogy, or if you are feeling a  
> bit reminiscent, to use viking rather than mongolian, you will at  
> least offend n-1 people on the PD list.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> On Oct 8, 2007, at 10:40 PM, Chris McCormick wrote:
> 
> >On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:41:22PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
> >>On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Frank Barknecht wrote:
> >>
> >>>Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you  
> >>>look
> >>>at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above.
> >>
> >>If only you had had those real Mongolian hordes rushing towards  
> >>you at the
> >>appropriate time in history, you would understand...
> >>
> >>There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing
> >>history.
> >
> >I wonder why we don't refer to the european hordes rushing into  
> >countless
> >continents, slaughtering and raping the local peoples for the last few
> >hundred years? There is a difference between dismissing history and
> >selective memory.
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Chris.
> >
> >---
> >http://mccormick.cx
> >
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> v a d e //
> 
> www.vade.info
> abstrakt.vade.info
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Chris McCormick]

On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 11:26:59AM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
> >On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:41:22PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
> >>There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing
> >>history.
> >I wonder why we don't refer to the european hordes rushing into countless
> >continents, slaughtering and raping the local peoples for the last few
> >hundred years? There is a difference between dismissing history and
> >selective memory.
> 
> Just because we don't mention it *here*, doesn't mean we don't know it or 
> want to forget it. We don't have quotas of representation of historical 
> facts on pd-list. If you want to balance the representation of historical 
> facts on pd-list, do your own share if you will, but pd-list has no such 
> duty.

Yeah of course, but Frank was not talking about the pd-list. He was
referring to a phrase in the Jargon File. I am not asking people on the
pd-list to be more sensitive or to enforce 'quotas of representation'.
It's a free world; people can say whatever they like and use whatever
phrases they like. What I am saying is that your statement that we
shouldn't "dismiss history", implying that the phrase "Mongolian hordes"
represents a historically valid viewpoint is perpetuating a western-biased
(racist) falsehood.

There is strong debate about whether the Mongolians were "uncivilised"
and how ruthless they were. To illustrate this point, consider that in
many cases recorded by the people being invaded they treated people much
better by comparison than European invaders, who recorded their invasions
themselves. To use the phrase "Mongolian hordes" is to reinforce a
factually incorrect racist cultural stereotype. It is to imply that
other people invading are "hordes" whilst when western people invade it's
"progress". The mere fact that everyone knows what we're talking about
when we say "mongolian hordes" whilst there is no similar widespread
cliche for western invaders in our culture is testament to this fact.

> Now, while you're back into that topic, can you point to me the reasons 
> why Canada refused to sign the last treaty about natives?

No, not really. I am sure you can find more information about it on the
net if you care to try. A search for 'UN indigenous rights' will yeild
many results.

The Canadian government has traditionally strongly supported this
UN action for indigenous people's rights, right up until the current
government came into power.

"Unfortunately, the provisions in the Declaration on lands, territories
and resources are overly broad, unclear, and capable of a wide variety
of interpretations, discounting the need to recognize a range of rights
over land and possibly putting into question matters that have been
settled by treaty,"
-- Canada's UN Ambassador John McNee

> You seemed to 
> assume that if Canada had not signed it, it had to be for the worst of 
> reasons,

Incorrect.

> but have you actually read about the reasons?

A little. The conflict is similar to that in Australia. There are many
sides and they usually concern the ownership of traditional lands:

* Indigenous people's groups generally would like their people to have
the right to use their traditional lands.

* Conservationists would like to use the issue to further their own
agenda of environmental protection.

* Resource industry corporations would like unfettered access to the
land in order to dig valuable things out of the ground and sell them on
the global market. Unfortunately the remaining stocks of underground
resources are often located under traditionally owned lands these days.

* Ordinary people are reasonably ignorant of the facts and easily swayed
by sensationalist media headlines about indigenous land re-acquisition.

* In some cases the government has negotiated treaties with indigenous
peoples and they don't want those treaties to be disturbed.

There are many sides to the argument but I think these are generally the
issues.

Best,

Chris.

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:

On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:41:22PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:

There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing
history.

I wonder why we don't refer to the european hordes rushing into countless
continents, slaughtering and raping the local peoples for the last few
hundred years? There is a difference between dismissing history and
selective memory.


Just because we don't mention it *here*, doesn't mean we don't know it or 
want to forget it. We don't have quotas of representation of historical 
facts on pd-list. If you want to balance the representation of historical 
facts on pd-list, do your own share if you will, but pd-list has no such 
duty.


Now, while you're back into that topic, can you point to me the reasons 
why Canada refused to sign the last treaty about natives? You seemed to 
assume that if Canada had not signed it, it had to be for the worst of 
reasons, but have you actually read about the reasons?


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[João Miguel Pais]

> the [not so funny thing] about sexist [ and heavy ] people
> is like of one having a d*** in place of his nose,
> he's just unable to see it.

dude, without wanting to be offensive: it's a really good thing to be a  
rebel and provide alternatives to mainstream established corrupt power and  
etc., but it's not good to be a fundamentalist, whatever what's your  
"religion" (wahhabism, christian, capitalism, feminism, animal  
rights). this thread started with you complaining about the terms 'wet  
dream' and 'gang bang'. If you do a search for them in this list, you'll  
find:

'wet dream' - 2002, one thread with 4 mails. also women can have wet  
dreams, just like women can ejaculate - go figure, just like men. some  
really emancipated women that I know speak about their wet dreams, how  
they would like to "get that guy", and etc. - which I find quite good,  
because they're free to live their lives as they want to, and they do it.  
and anyway they don't care about what I think, because they just do what  
they want.

'gang bang' - some mails in 2004, one or 2 in 2006. related with an  
object, not with the action. by the way, check the wikipedia,  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_bang: gang bang is something done by  
both sexes, and "is now increasingly applied only to consensual sexual  
behavior in the sexual swinging community". unles you meant 'gang rape',  
but a search in the pd list turns out no results. I guess we macho  
women-enslaving pders have something to learn yet, thank you for bringing  
that up.

So resuming, you're complaining about something that someone wrote once or  
twice years ago? either is the whole list very wrong, or you might be  
exagerating a bit. anyway if you're against macho and sexism, you're in  
the right place, the country in europe with the greatest number of  
domestic violence-provoked deaths - even worse as Portugal. if you want to  
do something about it, start there.
anyway, if you're really serious about sexism in this list and not just  
mouthing out, get some real references, and we'll talk about it like  
civilized people. think of it as providing a bug report: if you only say  
"this object doesn't work" no one will have a clue of what you meant, and  
people might start talking about something general without going to the  
point; if you say "this object did so and so in these conditions, here's a  
log for you to see" then people have some reference. if you really think  
we're sexist or we can improve something, do something more than scream  
"you filthy pigs" - you'll notice that people will be more interested in  
the subject, and will be more responsive.


> all the answers we got on this thread really show
> the high level of sexism on this list,
> and once again, some girls will not answer to this level
> of discussion ..

you know, all these years as a (not very active) member of pd list I never  
saw many women mailing, providing abstractions or externals. are we really  
so bad that they don't even subscribe? again I ask, if you're serious  
about this theme, search the list and send concrete references to the  
list. unles you mean using [bang] is sexist...


> pd : btw, we will not meet in Lisboa, thank you no...

I prefer it that way too, I don't know if I would be able to take your  
"street language" and your linux fundamentalism.


check out the old area of Alfama in a sunny day, it's quite beautiful. if  
you go out at night, try Bairro Alto, and the Zé dos Bois art  
gallery/bar/concert venue, there's always something happening there, and  
they should be interested in your work. there's also going to be a free  
software encounter in 12 and 13 - http://www.softwarelivre.com.pt/,  
probably most of it in portuguese and not music-related. Don't be afraid,  
I won't be there.
the areas outside Lisboa are quite nice, Sintra, Cascais (maybe too  
decadent), Alentejo,  and of course, wine and fish.


Joao

PS to the rest of the list: sorry for the troll feeding, it won't happen  
again (it's my first time)

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Deutschland
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Mob +49 162 6843570
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[ydegoyon]

ola,

> - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
> One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
>

the [not so funny thing] about sexist [ and heavy ] people
is like of one having a d*** in place of his nose,
he's just unable to see it.

all the answers we got on this thread really show
the high level of sexism on this list,
and once again, some girls will not answer to this level
of discussion ..

sevy

pd : btw, we will not meet in Lisboa, thank you no...

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[henrik wurster]

pd not sexist but sexiest

2007/10/9, João Miguel Pais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> I have 30 cents to make this discussion even more useful and meaningful as
> it already is:
>
>
> - How about discussing enviromentalism and how pd contributes to global
> warming, or the socio-political effects of data structures' last
> improvements in the ambitus of left-handed users of the olpc project,
> since it's also as interesting as what you're doing now;
>
> - if you think pd is sexist, don't stay inactive, provide your anti-sexist
> externals to Hans, and they'll be part of pd extended. or program some
> anti-sexist scripts to apply to the list server. or scan the pd mailling
> list for sexist mails, and then expell their authors from the list and
> have a swat team go to their homes and burn their computers and chop off
> their typing fingers;
>
> - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
> One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
> [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a
> humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]
>
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[João Miguel Pais]

I have 30 cents to make this discussion even more useful and meaningful as  
it already is:


- How about discussing enviromentalism and how pd contributes to global  
warming, or the socio-political effects of data structures' last  
improvements in the ambitus of left-handed users of the olpc project,  
since it's also as interesting as what you're doing now;

- if you think pd is sexist, don't stay inactive, provide your anti-sexist  
externals to Hans, and they'll be part of pd extended. or program some  
anti-sexist scripts to apply to the list server. or scan the pd mailling  
list for sexist mails, and then expell their authors from the list and  
have a swat team go to their homes and burn their computers and chop off  
their typing fingers;

- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:  
One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
[I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a  
humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[vade]

Because the Mongolians did it so much better as to be noteworthy? And  
dont forget the Vikings, we were pretty legendary. Then the damn  
Christians tamed us.


But im also an American citizen (my mother is Scandinavian), so you  
have my explicit permission to speak of the current American Hordes,  
should you need to specify any group of people with a  
"horde"/"Invasion"/"rape"/"torture" analogy, or if you are feeling a  
bit reminiscent, to use viking rather than mongolian, you will at  
least offend n-1 people on the PD list.


Thanks,

On Oct 8, 2007, at 10:40 PM, Chris McCormick wrote:


On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:41:22PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Frank Barknecht wrote:

Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you  
look

at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above.


If only you had had those real Mongolian hordes rushing towards  
you at the

appropriate time in history, you would understand...

There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing
history.


I wonder why we don't refer to the european hordes rushing into  
countless

continents, slaughtering and raping the local peoples for the last few
hundred years? There is a difference between dismissing history and
selective memory.

Best,

Chris.

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v a d e //

www.vade.info
abstrakt.vade.info



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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Chris McCormick]

On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:41:22PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Frank Barknecht wrote:
> 
> >Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you look 
> >at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above.
> 
> If only you had had those real Mongolian hordes rushing towards you at the 
> appropriate time in history, you would understand...
> 
> There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing 
> history.

I wonder why we don't refer to the european hordes rushing into countless
continents, slaughtering and raping the local peoples for the last few
hundred years? There is a difference between dismissing history and
selective memory.

Best,

Chris.

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, vade wrote:

On Oct 8, 2007, at 12:41 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:

There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing
history.

We are in desperate need of implementations of the following objects:
[fistfuck]

[...]
But seriously, this thread was half amusing and half exasperating. heres 
adding to the noise.


The mail you replied to is about a serious issue.

I have not deserved your random garbage.

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[vade]

ATTENTION ARTISTS.

CALL FOR WORK

"Prospective new media collective"* in NYC is asking prospective  
programmers to help design software for Pure Data/GEM


We are in desperate need of implementations of the following objects:

[fistfuck]
[asstoass]
[asstomouth]
[gagger]
[dp]
[bukakke]
[orgy]
[GEM_Camwhore]

Fellowships to be considered with application.

* I could not think of an ironic name.
** yes I am like a 12 year old.

But seriously, this thread was half amusing and half exasperating.  
heres adding to the noise.



On Oct 8, 2007, at 12:41 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:


On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Frank Barknecht wrote:

Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you  
look at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above.


If only you had had those real Mongolian hordes rushing towards you  
at the appropriate time in history, you would understand...


There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and  
dismissing history.


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Mathieu Bouchard]

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Frank Barknecht wrote:

Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you look 
at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above.


If only you had had those real Mongolian hordes rushing towards you at the 
appropriate time in history, you would understand...


There's a difference between being sensitive to racism and dismissing 
history.


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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Thomas Mayer]

IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> Thomas Mayer wrote:
>> Wet dream can also relate to the dreams of water on Dune by Paul
>> Atreides and gang bang can mean [t b b b b b b]
> 
> indeed this is possible.
> these phrases could also be not english at all and mean something like 
> "bubo bubo" and "forgive".

I have put a SCNR (= Sorry, Could Not Resist) at the bottom of my mail,
so it should not have been taken too seriously. I have not encountered
much sexism on this list, maybe I just have not noticed, except one
thread in the last two weeks. But then, I have been on this list only
for two years, and have been lurking most of the time.

And here is a great comic about online sexism: http://xkcd.com/322/

cu Thomas
-- 
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are effective. They're a kind of job insurance."
(Leto II. in: Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune)
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[marius schebella]

Frank Barknecht wrote:

> slang, one wouldn't use it in church.

one wouldn't go to church.
m.

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
Chuckk Hubbard hat gesagt: // Chuckk Hubbard wrote:

> Addendum - a quick Gmail search turned up one use of "gang bang" which was
> quoted in response a few times; it was in the thread "[Pd]
> pd-competition?".  I'm not exactly sure what it was referring to.  I suspect
> it was a play on the word 'bang'.

Gang Bang has multiple meanings. Besides the vulgar one (which seems
to be the only one, the all knowing Wikipedia knows about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_bang_%28disambiguation%29 ) there
also is a meaning in hacker slang, which is what the pd competition
was alluding to.

Quoting the Jargon file entry: 

  gang bang: 
  
  The use of large numbers of loosely coupled programmers in an
  attempt to wedge a great many features into a product in a short
  time. Though there have been memorable gang bangs (e.g., that
  over-the-weekend assembler port mentioned in Steven Levy's Hackers),
  and large numbers of loosely-coupled programmers operating in bazaar
  mode can do very useful work when they're not on a deadline, most
  are perpetrated by large companies trying to meet unrealistic
  deadlines; the inevitable result is enormous buggy masses of code
  entirely lacking in orthogonality. When market-driven managers make
  a list of all the features the competition has and assign one
  programmer to implement each, the probability of maintaining a
  coherent (or even functional) design goes to epsilon. See also
  firefighting, Mongolian Hordes technique, Conway's Law. 

Of course, hacker slang can be sexist as well, even racist if you look
at the term " Mongolian Hordes technique" above. But well, that's
slang, one wouldn't use it in church.

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org__

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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Chuckk Hubbard]

Addendum - a quick Gmail search turned up one use of "gang bang" which was
quoted in response a few times; it was in the thread "[Pd]
pd-competition?".  I'm not exactly sure what it was referring to.  I suspect
it was a play on the word 'bang'.

Another quick Gmail search turned up one use of "wet dream", but now that I
look that was actually in the Nosi-discussion list.  It was, coincidentally,
a comment made by a woman, one of the most active people in NOSI.

All I can guess is that this thread was started as a troll, or perhaps
accidentally posted to the wrong list.

-Chuckk

On 10/8/07, IOhannes m zmoelnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thomas Mayer wrote:
>
> >> Understandable, but that's not sexism.
> >> And I have heard these terms from the mouths of women many, many times.
>
> how does the fact that a group of people uses certain phrases prove that
> these phrases are not symptoms (or means) of oppression of this very
> group?
>
> >
> > Wet dream can also relate to the dreams of water on Dune by Paul
> > Atreides and gang bang can mean [t b b b b b b]
>
> indeed this is possible.
> these phrases could also be not english at all and mean something like
> "bubo bubo" and "forgive".
>
>
> mfg.asdr
> IOhannes
>
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Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[Chuckk Hubbard]

On 10/8/07, IOhannes m zmoelnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thomas Mayer wrote:
>
> >> Understandable, but that's not sexism.
> >> And I have heard these terms from the mouths of women many, many times.
>
> how does the fact that a group of people uses certain phrases prove that
> these phrases are not symptoms (or means) of oppression of this very
> group?


Did I say anything about proving something?

The fact that using those two particular phrases is not sexism is evident by
the meanings of the phrases and the definition of sexism.  Only one of the
phrases mentioned makes any differentiation between the sexes, and it
describes a solitary act irrelevant to any relationship between the sexes.
If there is sexism on this mailing list, it isn't evidenced by the presence
of those two phrases.

Pointing out that many women use those phrases was a response to the
supposition that those phrases explain the absence of women from this
mailing list.  It was not intended to support the statement that the use of
these phrases is not sexism; that much should be self-evident.  I would not
try to prove something using anecdotal observations.

I'm surprised anyone would think there's sexism on this list.  I don't even
know what sex most of the posters are.  I've never seen the subject of sex
or gender come up before.

-Chuckk


>
> > Wet dream can also relate to the dreams of water on Dune by Paul
> > Atreides and gang bang can mean [t b b b b b b]
>
> indeed this is possible.
> these phrases could also be not english at all and mean something like
> "bubo bubo" and "forgive".
>
>
> mfg.asdr
> IOhannes
>
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[PD] [OT] Re: about sexism

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

Thomas Mayer wrote:

>> Understandable, but that's not sexism.
>> And I have heard these terms from the mouths of women many, many times.

how does the fact that a group of people uses certain phrases prove that 
these phrases are not symptoms (or means) of oppression of this very group?

> 
> Wet dream can also relate to the dreams of water on Dune by Paul
> Atreides and gang bang can mean [t b b b b b b]

indeed this is possible.
these phrases could also be not english at all and mean something like 
"bubo bubo" and "forgive".


mfg.asdr
IOhannes

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