Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Winfried Ritsch]

FYI: Status of this thread

Since the discussion somehow came to an end and a rough consensus can be 
extracted, I summarized the status with a pull request following up the pull 
request from Max. ( https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/521):

   https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/526

Any comments please  write in there and hope it maybe will be merged to Pd  
Vanilla ...

mfg
 winfried



Am Montag, 12. November 2018, 12:54:29 CET schrieb Winfried Ritsch:
> I appreciate this lively discussion, and want to state I am not a linguist,
> even my german is not mainstream, some strange austrian dialekt... so my
> thoughts:
> 
> -  We do not need the translation to be an exact description of something,
> but it should not confuse and missunderstandable.
> 
> - For me "Puredata" is a computer(music) language and "pd" is an editor for
> this.  in teaching it  (language) terms  which relates to a kind of  syntax
> does not need to be translated, like "message", "bang", ...
> 
> - menus are for structuring the user interface not so much an explanation of
> something.  Power users mostly don't use them, the use short-cuts, but if I
> want to show someone what I do I use the menu so it can be tracked...
> 
> - On a first usage (of menus) I need some time to find anything, but
> afterwards I only need the words as a hint, so I prefer a small
> description. So I do not want to read long stories in menus, but identify
> the entry within a glimpse and remember  it easily.
> 
> With this in mind and following the discussion my corrected preferences:
> 
> "File" := "Datei"
>since used in other applications too
> 
>"message..." :=   "Message..."
>instead of "Pd-Nachricht senden"
> 
>using message... is something where I have to know what I do,
>so "message..." is a nice hint I can remember easily and three dots
> triggers the imagination what you can do with it  :-).
> 
> Preferences := "Einstellungen"
> instead of "Voreinstellungen"
> 
>since  "Voreinstellungen" means default
> 
> Preferences ->Startup :=  Einstellungen->Bibliotheken...
> since, like IOhannes said, its mostly about these
> 
> Preferences ->MIDI.. := Einstellungen->MIDI...
>   instead of "Einstellungen->MIDI Einstellungen"
>since Einstellungen is in the parent menu
> 
> "put"  := "Einfügen"
> 
> I suggest not "translate" anything under this menu, since this are kind of
> terms of the syntax Puredata , so use this words or nearly this words when
> edit a Pd-File with an texteditor or do dynamic patching, but if there is a
> translation, mybe for the graphical objects second half, my remarks:
> 
>   Radiobutton := Auswahl horizontal , Auswahl vertikal
> Auswahl explains the function
> and vertical horizontal implies a graphic object
> 
>graph := Graph
>   since is also german but refer also to graph theory which is a "patch"
> but intuitively we can used it also for the area of drawing something and
> 
> array := Array
>   an array is an array in german, another german word would be
>   "Zahlenreihe" or "Datenfeld", but both is not in common use.
> 
> Edit -> Paste replace := Bearbeiten -> Ersetzen
>   instead of "Objekte ersetzen"
> 
>I think "Ersetzen" is enough" although in english objects are not
>mentioned. I don't see "Ersetzen" is something other than
>"Paste Replace" it is not "Find and replace" but Replace
>   since you also replace messages not only objects.
> 
> Find -> find again  := "erneut finden"
> instead of "Finde nochmal"
> because we do not want to find "nochmal"
> 
> Help->Find Externals := "Finde Bibliotheken online"
> instead of  "Zusätzliche Objekte im Internet finden",
> 
> since "Finde Externals" is also wrong, like IOhannes stated,  we do not
> find objects or external  in the internet like in a patch or file system,
> but libraries of pd- abstractions as objects or compiled objects and
> more... and online is as much "german" as "handy" for mobiles and  nowadays
> only associated with the internet, (not so for a future menu in the
> "darknet...") ;-)
> 
> Hope I could help a little within this discussion and we find a consens, but
> can live with other solutions also.
> 
> mfg
>  winfried
> 
> Am Freitag, 9. November 2018, 17:27:52 CET schrieb Max:
> > On 09.11.18 17:10, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> > > On 11/9/18 4:59 PM, Max wrote:
> > >> I just checked the de.po file and actually the German translation in
> > >> there is "Kurve" for Array and "Feld" for graph. (Not Feld for Array).
> > > 
> > > yes. this was my first edit to the translation.
> > > 
> > > before it was the other way around, and i *absolutely never* had an idea
> > > what was meant:
> > > 
> > > i selected "Kurve" and got a large rectangle (reminding me of a "field")
> > > i selected "Feld" and it would add a line (aka "straight curve") into
> > > the previously created rectangle.

Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 12.11.18 22:58, Christof Ressi wrote:
> sounds good! do you mind setting up a branch with your translations?
> 

ideally basing it on max's PR [521], to avoid divergence.


fbmsdr
IOhannes

[521] https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/521



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Christof Ressi]

sounds good! do you mind setting up a branch with your translations?

Christof

> Gesendet: Montag, 12. November 2018 um 12:54 Uhr
> Von: "Winfried Ritsch" 
> An: pd-list@lists.iem.at
> Betreff: Re: [PD] German translation of Pd
>
> I appreciate this lively discussion, and want to state I am not a linguist, 
> even my german is not mainstream, some strange austrian dialekt... so my 
> thoughts:
> 
> -  We do not need the translation to be an exact description of something, 
> but 
> it should not confuse and missunderstandable. 
> 
> - For me "Puredata" is a computer(music) language and "pd" is an editor for 
> this.  in teaching it  (language) terms  which relates to a kind of  syntax 
> does not need to be translated, like "message", "bang", ... 
> 
> - menus are for structuring the user interface not so much an explanation of 
> something.  Power users mostly don't use them, the use short-cuts,
> but if I want to show someone what I do I use the menu so it can be tracked...
> 
> - On a first usage (of menus) I need some time to find anything, but 
> afterwards 
> I only need the words as a hint, so I prefer a small description. So I do not 
> want to read long stories in menus, but identify the entry within a glimpse 
> and remember  it easily.
> 
> With this in mind and following the discussion my corrected preferences:
> 
> "File" := "Datei"  
>since used in other applications too
> 
>"message..." :=   "Message..."
>instead of "Pd-Nachricht senden"
> 
>using message... is something where I have to know what I do,
>so "message..." is a nice hint I can remember easily and three dots
> triggers the imagination what you can do with it  :-).
> 
> Preferences := "Einstellungen"  
> instead of "Voreinstellungen"
> 
>since  "Voreinstellungen" means default
> 
> Preferences ->Startup :=  Einstellungen->Bibliotheken...
> since, like IOhannes said, its mostly about these
> 
> Preferences ->MIDI.. := Einstellungen->MIDI... 
>   instead of "Einstellungen->MIDI Einstellungen"
>since Einstellungen is in the parent menu
> 
> "put"  := "Einfügen" 
> 
> I suggest not "translate" anything under this menu, since this are kind of 
> terms of the syntax Puredata , so use this words or nearly this words when 
> edit a Pd-File with an texteditor or do dynamic patching, but if there is a 
> translation, mybe for the graphical objects second half, my remarks:
> 
>   Radiobutton := Auswahl horizontal , Auswahl vertikal
> Auswahl explains the function 
> and vertical horizontal implies a graphic object
> 
>graph := Graph 
>   since is also german but refer also to graph theory which is a "patch"
> but intuitively we can used it also for the area of drawing something and
>   
> array := Array
>   an array is an array in german, another german word would be
>   "Zahlenreihe" or "Datenfeld", but both is not in common use.
> 
> Edit -> Paste replace := Bearbeiten -> Ersetzen 
>   instead of "Objekte ersetzen"
> 
>I think "Ersetzen" is enough" although in english objects are not 
>mentioned. I don't see "Ersetzen" is something other than 
>"Paste Replace" it is not "Find and replace" but Replace
>   since you also replace messages not only objects.
> 
> Find -> find again  := "erneut finden"
> instead of "Finde nochmal"
> because we do not want to find "nochmal"
> 
> Help->Find Externals := "Finde Bibliotheken online"
> instead of  "Zusätzliche Objekte im Internet finden",
> 
> since "Finde Externals" is also wrong, like IOhannes stated,  we do not 
> find objects or external  in the internet like in a patch or file system, but 
> libraries of pd- abstractions as objects or compiled objects and more... 
> and online is as much "german" as "handy" for mobiles and  nowadays only 
> associated with the internet, (not so for a future menu in the "darknet...") 
> ;-)
> 
> Hope I could help a little within this discussion and we find a consens, but 
> can live with other solutions also. 
> 
> mfg
>  winfried
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am Freitag, 9. November 2018, 17:27:52 CET schrieb Max:
> > On 09.11.18 17:10, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> > > On 11/9/18 4:59 PM, Max wr

Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Winfried Ritsch]

I appreciate this lively discussion, and want to state I am not a linguist, 
even my german is not mainstream, some strange austrian dialekt... so my 
thoughts:

-  We do not need the translation to be an exact description of something, but 
it should not confuse and missunderstandable. 

- For me "Puredata" is a computer(music) language and "pd" is an editor for 
this.  in teaching it  (language) terms  which relates to a kind of  syntax 
does not need to be translated, like "message", "bang", ... 

- menus are for structuring the user interface not so much an explanation of 
something.  Power users mostly don't use them, the use short-cuts,
but if I want to show someone what I do I use the menu so it can be tracked...

- On a first usage (of menus) I need some time to find anything, but afterwards 
I only need the words as a hint, so I prefer a small description. So I do not 
want to read long stories in menus, but identify the entry within a glimpse 
and remember  it easily.

With this in mind and following the discussion my corrected preferences:

"File" := "Datei"  
   since used in other applications too

   "message..." :=   "Message..."
   instead of "Pd-Nachricht senden"

   using message... is something where I have to know what I do,
   so "message..." is a nice hint I can remember easily and three dots
triggers the imagination what you can do with it  :-).

Preferences := "Einstellungen"  
instead of "Voreinstellungen"

   since  "Voreinstellungen" means default

Preferences ->Startup :=  Einstellungen->Bibliotheken...
since, like IOhannes said, its mostly about these

Preferences ->MIDI.. := Einstellungen->MIDI... 
  instead of "Einstellungen->MIDI Einstellungen"
   since Einstellungen is in the parent menu

"put"  := "Einfügen" 

I suggest not "translate" anything under this menu, since this are kind of 
terms of the syntax Puredata , so use this words or nearly this words when 
edit a Pd-File with an texteditor or do dynamic patching, but if there is a 
translation, mybe for the graphical objects second half, my remarks:

  Radiobutton := Auswahl horizontal , Auswahl vertikal
Auswahl explains the function 
and vertical horizontal implies a graphic object

   graph := Graph 
  since is also german but refer also to graph theory which is a "patch"
but intuitively we can used it also for the area of drawing something and
  
array := Array
  an array is an array in german, another german word would be
  "Zahlenreihe" or "Datenfeld", but both is not in common use.

Edit -> Paste replace := Bearbeiten -> Ersetzen 
  instead of "Objekte ersetzen"

   I think "Ersetzen" is enough" although in english objects are not 
   mentioned. I don't see "Ersetzen" is something other than 
   "Paste Replace" it is not "Find and replace" but Replace
  since you also replace messages not only objects.

Find -> find again  := "erneut finden"
instead of "Finde nochmal"
because we do not want to find "nochmal"

Help->Find Externals := "Finde Bibliotheken online"
instead of  "Zusätzliche Objekte im Internet finden",

since "Finde Externals" is also wrong, like IOhannes stated,  we do not 
find objects or external  in the internet like in a patch or file system, but 
libraries of pd- abstractions as objects or compiled objects and more... 
and online is as much "german" as "handy" for mobiles and  nowadays only 
associated with the internet, (not so for a future menu in the "darknet...") 
;-)

Hope I could help a little within this discussion and we find a consens, but 
can live with other solutions also. 

mfg
 winfried




Am Freitag, 9. November 2018, 17:27:52 CET schrieb Max:
> On 09.11.18 17:10, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> > On 11/9/18 4:59 PM, Max wrote:
> >> I just checked the de.po file and actually the German translation in
> >> there is "Kurve" for Array and "Feld" for graph. (Not Feld for Array).
> > 
> > yes. this was my first edit to the translation.
> > 
> > before it was the other way around, and i *absolutely never* had an idea
> > what was meant:
> > 
> > i selected "Kurve" and got a large rectangle (reminding me of a "field")
> > i selected "Feld" and it would add a line (aka "straight curve") into
> > the previously created rectangle.
> > urgh.
> > 
> > since i changed it, i have to think *a lot less* what is actually meant.
> > 
> > a translation into my mother tongue should reduce my cognitive load, not
> > overdrive it.
> 
> Fine, what's Winfrieds opinion about it?
> 
> I created a pull request for some of the strings where I thought was
> somewhat of a consensus here:
> 
> https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/521
> 
> 
> 
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--
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- rit...@iem.at - http:

Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[oliver]

Christof Ressi wrote:

meaning (= translation)


reading the translations "Schieberegler" or "Arbeitsfläche" doesn't tell a new user anything about the meaning. they might get a vague idea but the full "meaning" of those terms only emerges when they create the corresponding object and interact with it. 



i completely agree with christof in this regard.

imagine any possible german translation for a simple yet extensive thing 
like "message":


Botschaft, Nachricht, Mitteilung ...


All of them (while technically "correct") would completely miss the 
point of what a "message" in PD is and what it does (i.e. as opposed to 
an audio signal, etc. ...)


and how would you translate "bang" ? Peng, Bumm, Knall ? ;-)

unless the concept behind "bang" (meaning "do it" or "do it again") is 
explained and understood, you can't make any use of it.


don't even start to think about translating more obscure name concepts 
like "patch" into german ...


(i know how long it took me to accept this term, that was otherwise used 
for cracking or repairing software ;-)


i too would leave PD-"specific" terms untouched in any translations, 
even if they seem translatable or simple.


my 2c

best

oliver










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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Peter P.]

* Christof Ressi  [2018-11-10 21:39]:
[...]
> but maybe I should stop complaining now and simply continue with my practice 
> of immediately deleting the "po" folder in my Pd installations :-)
But maybe we should try to solve this problem without having to tell
german newcomers and students of Pd to do the same ;)

P



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Christof Ressi]

> meaning (= translation)

reading the translations "Schieberegler" or "Arbeitsfläche" doesn't tell a new 
user anything about the meaning. they might get a vague idea but the full 
"meaning" of those terms only emerges when they create the corresponding object 
and interact with it. then they can associate the object with the corresponding 
word in the menu. which word you use, however, is more or less arbitrary 
("Hslider", "Vslider", "Hradio" and "Vradio" aren't even real English words). 
now wouldn't it be nice if everybody would use the same words for those things 
which are specific to Pd?

I agree that this approach doesn't work so well with languages which don't have 
the same writings system (like English and Chinese) but I can't imagine that 
those German translations in the Put menu are of any use to a German Pd user. 
Seriously, how is something like "Vertikaler Schieberegler" any better than 
"Vslider"?

but maybe I should stop complaining now and simply continue with my practice of 
immediately deleting the "po" folder in my Pd installations :-)

Christof
 

> Gesendet: Samstag, 10. November 2018 um 18:43 Uhr
> Von: "Jurgen Frenz" 
> An: pd-list@lists.iem.at
> Betreff: Re: [PD] German translation of Pd
>
> Allow me to insist on my bracket [in Klammern] suggestion - the fact 
> that the menus AND help patches are not localised in any other language 
> than English makes it vital to have both a rendering of the meaning (= 
> translation) and a reference to the original keyword.
> I have been teaching Pd in China and Malaysia and I am fully aware of 
> the extreme value of a translation of the text body.
> 
> Best
> Jürgen
> 
> On 10-Nov-18 15:55, Max wrote:
> > I disagree. Translations are made for people who aren't already 
> > polyglot. As Winfried said, let's strive to make the translations 
> > better. The suggestion Jurgen Frenz made is sensible though: 
> > translating it and put the original name in brackets.
> >
> >
> > On 10.11.18 01:34, Peter P. wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I had started this thread because of the terrible situation where you
> >> are teaching Pd to people, who have different language settings. It
> >> artificially confuses everyone involved without any gain. Everything
> >> that is in the "Put" menu should be uniform across all languages and
> >> match the terminology in the help patches. The same applies for other
> >> terms such as "patch" etc.
> >>
> >> This is really important and reduces the cognitive load of people new to
> >> Pd and learning it.
> >>
> >> best, P
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Jurgen Frenz]

Allow me to insist on my bracket [in Klammern] suggestion - the fact 
that the menus AND help patches are not localised in any other language 
than English makes it vital to have both a rendering of the meaning (= 
translation) and a reference to the original keyword.
I have been teaching Pd in China and Malaysia and I am fully aware of 
the extreme value of a translation of the text body.


Best
Jürgen

On 10-Nov-18 15:55, Max wrote:
I disagree. Translations are made for people who aren't already 
polyglot. As Winfried said, let's strive to make the translations 
better. The suggestion Jurgen Frenz made is sensible though: 
translating it and put the original name in brackets.



On 10.11.18 01:34, Peter P. wrote:

Hi all,

I had started this thread because of the terrible situation where you
are teaching Pd to people, who have different language settings. It
artificially confuses everyone involved without any gain. Everything
that is in the "Put" menu should be uniform across all languages and
match the terminology in the help patches. The same applies for other
terms such as "patch" etc.

This is really important and reduces the cognitive load of people new to
Pd and learning it.

best, P



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Simon Iten]

i think the fundamental question is:

do you translate terms that are part of the pd-lingo? (and yes i know that word 
or any other commercial software does this)

i am not sure the learning curve for an english speaking person is that much 
faster if he does not have to learn the 5 english terms that are most commonly 
used in the put menu. some of them are also not obvious in english. point 
being, if you learn a “programming” language, you have to learn new terms 
anyway, not sure it really matters what words those are.

additionally, if you ever use the internet to look up how something could be 
patched or search for examples, all the terms and explanations will be in 
english… so maybe better to just learn it like this from the beginning.




> On 10 Nov 2018, at 15:55, Max  wrote:
> 
> I disagree. Translations are made for people who aren't already polyglot. As 
> Winfried said, let's strive to make the translations better. The suggestion 
> Jurgen Frenz made is sensible though: translating it and put the original 
> name in brackets.
> 
> 
> On 10.11.18 01:34, Peter P. wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I had started this thread because of the terrible situation where you
>> are teaching Pd to people, who have different language settings. It
>> artificially confuses everyone involved without any gain. Everything
>> that is in the "Put" menu should be uniform across all languages and
>> match the terminology in the help patches. The same applies for other
>> terms such as "patch" etc.
>> This is really important and reduces the cognitive load of people new to
>> Pd and learning it.
>> best, P
>> ___
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>> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Max]

I disagree. Translations are made for people who aren't already 
polyglot. As Winfried said, let's strive to make the translations 
better. The suggestion Jurgen Frenz made is sensible though: translating 
it and put the original name in brackets.



On 10.11.18 01:34, Peter P. wrote:

Hi all,

I had started this thread because of the terrible situation where you
are teaching Pd to people, who have different language settings. It
artificially confuses everyone involved without any gain. Everything
that is in the "Put" menu should be uniform across all languages and
match the terminology in the help patches. The same applies for other
terms such as "patch" etc.

This is really important and reduces the cognitive load of people new to
Pd and learning it.

best, P



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Christof Ressi]

> everything that is in the "Put" menu should be uniform across all languages 
> and
> match the terminology in the help patches. 

+1

> Gesendet: Samstag, 10. November 2018 um 01:34 Uhr
> Von: "Peter P." 
> An: pd-list@lists.iem.at
> Betreff: Re: [PD] German translation of Pd
>
> Hi all,
> 
> I had started this thread because of the terrible situation where you
> are teaching Pd to people, who have different language settings. It
> artificially confuses everyone involved without any gain. Everything
> that is in the "Put" menu should be uniform across all languages and
> match the terminology in the help patches. The same applies for other
> terms such as "patch" etc. 
> 
> This is really important and reduces the cognitive load of people new to
> Pd and learning it.
> 
> best, P
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Peter P.]

Hi all,

I had started this thread because of the terrible situation where you
are teaching Pd to people, who have different language settings. It
artificially confuses everyone involved without any gain. Everything
that is in the "Put" menu should be uniform across all languages and
match the terminology in the help patches. The same applies for other
terms such as "patch" etc. 

This is really important and reduces the cognitive load of people new to
Pd and learning it.

best, P



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Max]

On 09.11.18 17:12, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
A solution to avoid confusion with keywords would be to add in brackets 
the original English word for these vital technical terms. Helpful would 
be then the body of the text in German to those native German language 
speakers who do not understand the instructions etc in English which I 
thought is the purpose of the task.


that seems like a sensible idea to me.


On 09-Nov-18 14:05, Christof Ressi wrote:
PS: if we want to be *really* German I would opt for 
"Mehrfachoptionsfeld" :-p


I think that's exactly what a radiobutton is not - the special thing 
about a radiobutton is that it doesn't allow eine Mehrfachauswahl.

Einfachauswahlfeld would probably match better. :-p



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Max]

On 09.11.18 17:10, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:

On 11/9/18 4:59 PM, Max wrote:

I just checked the de.po file and actually the German translation in
there is "Kurve" for Array and "Feld" for graph. (Not Feld for Array).

yes. this was my first edit to the translation.

before it was the other way around, and i *absolutely never* had an idea
what was meant:

i selected "Kurve" and got a large rectangle (reminding me of a "field")
i selected "Feld" and it would add a line (aka "straight curve") into
the previously created rectangle.
urgh.

since i changed it, i have to think *a lot less* what is actually meant.

a translation into my mother tongue should reduce my cognitive load, not
overdrive it.


Fine, what's Winfrieds opinion about it?

I created a pull request for some of the strings where I thought was 
somewhat of a consensus here:


https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/521



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Jurgen Frenz]

A solution to avoid confusion with keywords would be to add in brackets 
the original English word for these vital technical terms. Helpful would 
be then the body of the text in German to those native German language 
speakers who do not understand the instructions etc in English which I 
thought is the purpose of the task.


On 09-Nov-18 14:05, Christof Ressi wrote:

again, what's wrong with Radiobutton? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiobutton

IMHO, trying to "translate" well understood technical terms (Radiobutton, 
Slider, VU-Meter, Messagebox, Array, Canvas etc.) has a high chance of causing confusion 
instead of being helpful.

translating doesn't mean getting rid of every single trace of the original 
language.

anyway, I think we all seem to agree that the current German translation is 
more confusing than helpful :-)

Christof

PS: if we want to be *really* German I would opt for "Mehrfachoptionsfeld" :-p


Gesendet: Freitag, 09. November 2018 um 13:18 Uhr
Von: "Roman Haefeli" 
An: pd-list@lists.iem.at
Betreff: Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

On Fri, 2018-11-09 at 12:09 +0100, Max wrote:

On 09.11.18 01:16, Simon Iten wrote:

On 8 Nov 2018, at 15:58, IOhannes m zmoelnig mailto:zmoel...@iem.at>> wrote:

none of them ring with me.
both "knopf" and "schalter" evoke quite specific images in my
head, none
of which match with what you actually get (and “radiobutton" does
neither)

Selektor?


I like

-1

It collides with the English 'selector' which has a particular meaning
in Pd.

Roman
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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 11/9/18 4:59 PM, Max wrote:
> I just checked the de.po file and actually the German translation in
> there is "Kurve" for Array and "Feld" for graph. (Not Feld for Array).
yes. this was my first edit to the translation.

before it was the other way around, and i *absolutely never* had an idea
what was meant:

i selected "Kurve" and got a large rectangle (reminding me of a "field")
i selected "Feld" and it would add a line (aka "straight curve") into
the previously created rectangle.
urgh.

since i changed it, i have to think *a lot less* what is actually meant.

a translation into my mother tongue should reduce my cognitive load, not
overdrive it.

gfmadsr
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Max]

On 08.11.18 15:58, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:

On 08.11.18 15:42, Max wrote:



    Very bad is "Feld" for array and "arbeitsfläche" for canvas, since
    array is a data type and Arbeitsfläche means Desktop normally


Array:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feld_(Datentyp)


i don't think this helps.
while the word "Feld" for the datatype might exist, i don't think it has
any practical relevance.
as wikipedia puts it (quoting a tutorial on C): „Der englische und
gängigere Begriff für Feld ist Array“.



I just checked the de.po file and actually the German translation in 
there is "Kurve" for Array and "Feld" for graph. (Not Feld for Array).




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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Christof Ressi]

again, what's wrong with Radiobutton? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiobutton

IMHO, trying to "translate" well understood technical terms (Radiobutton, 
Slider, VU-Meter, Messagebox, Array, Canvas etc.) has a high chance of causing 
confusion instead of being helpful.

translating doesn't mean getting rid of every single trace of the original 
language.

anyway, I think we all seem to agree that the current German translation is 
more confusing than helpful :-)

Christof

PS: if we want to be *really* German I would opt for "Mehrfachoptionsfeld" :-p

> Gesendet: Freitag, 09. November 2018 um 13:18 Uhr
> Von: "Roman Haefeli" 
> An: pd-list@lists.iem.at
> Betreff: Re: [PD] German translation of Pd
>
> On Fri, 2018-11-09 at 12:09 +0100, Max wrote:
> > On 09.11.18 01:16, Simon Iten wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On 8 Nov 2018, at 15:58, IOhannes m zmoelnig  > > > <mailto:zmoel...@iem.at>> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > none of them ring with me.
> > > > both "knopf" and "schalter" evoke quite specific images in my
> > > > head, none
> > > > of which match with what you actually get (and “radiobutton" does
> > > > neither)
> > > 
> > > Selektor?
> > > 
> > 
> > I like
> 
> -1
> 
> It collides with the English 'selector' which has a particular meaning
> in Pd.
> 
> Roman
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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Roman Haefeli]

On Fri, 2018-11-09 at 12:09 +0100, Max wrote:
> On 09.11.18 01:16, Simon Iten wrote:
> > 
> > > On 8 Nov 2018, at 15:58, IOhannes m zmoelnig  > > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > none of them ring with me.
> > > both "knopf" and "schalter" evoke quite specific images in my
> > > head, none
> > > of which match with what you actually get (and “radiobutton" does
> > > neither)
> > 
> > Selektor?
> > 
> 
> I like

-1

It collides with the English 'selector' which has a particular meaning
in Pd.

Roman


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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Max]

On 09.11.18 01:16, Simon Iten wrote:


On 8 Nov 2018, at 15:58, IOhannes m zmoelnig > wrote:


none of them ring with me.
both "knopf" and "schalter" evoke quite specific images in my head, none
of which match with what you actually get (and “radiobutton" does neither)


Selektor?



I like



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Simon Iten]

> On 8 Nov 2018, at 15:58, IOhannes m zmoelnig  wrote:
> 
> none of them ring with me.
> both "knopf" and "schalter" evoke quite specific images in my head, none
> of which match with what you actually get (and “radiobutton" does neither)

Selektor?



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 08.11.18 15:42, Max wrote:
> 
>>    Also Radioknopf is wrong, since "Radioschalter"  but "Radiobutton" is
>>     anyway german ( https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Radiobutton )
> 
> Very interesting, TIL. I would suggest "Optionsknopf, Auswahlschalter"
> or something similar. The original Radiobutton where you select the band
> FM / SW / LW (UKW / KW / LW) is only known to people who had such Radio
> and this reference is dying out. (At least for German, I don't know this
> is for English speakers)


none of them ring with me.
both "knopf" and "schalter" evoke quite specific images in my head, none
of which match with what you actually get (and "radiobutton" does neither)

> 
>>    Very bad is "Feld" for array and "arbeitsfläche" for canvas, since
>>    array is a data type and Arbeitsfläche means Desktop normally
> 
> Array:
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feld_(Datentyp)

i don't think this helps.
while the word "Feld" for the datatype might exist, i don't think it has
any practical relevance.
as wikipedia puts it (quoting a tutorial on C): „Der englische und
gängigere Begriff für Feld ist Array“.

> Is Leinwand better for Canvas?

no. it's just wrong, just like "Sackleinen", "Ringboden" and "Stramin"
(wtf?).
dict.cc also lists "Kanevas" (which would be a nice weirdo word that's
closely related to english original) or (surprise) "Canvas" as possible
translations of "canvas".

fgksdr
)=uajjes



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 08.11.18 15:08, Winfried Ritsch wrote:
> File
>   message... : "Pd-Nachricht senden" is missleading, Pd-Nachricht is not a
> term which could be found anywhere, better "Message senden..."

+1

>Preferences -> Startup: Voreinstellungen->Bibliotheken & Startprozess
>   It is to long, even not the same  than in english 
>   I would translate "Startoptionen"

i like "Bibliotheken & Startoptionen".
i wouldn't drop the "Bibliotheken", as this preference window is really
mostly about libraries and only a little bit about "startup" flags (i
think the english version is too terse).
also, i don't have any problems with the length of the string (but i'm
not using it on a 800x600 display)

> 
> Edit -> Paste replace: Bearbeiten -> Objekte ersetzen
>I think "Ersetzen" is enough" although in english objects are not 
>mentioned

the "paste replace" is somewhat different from an ordinary "replace"
(e.g. as found in your favourite text editor). that's why i chose a
somewhat non-standard term (in both languages).
i agree that the german translation is sub-optimal and doesn't catch the
oddness of "paste replace", but a simple "Ersetzen" is probably worse
asd it raises different expectations.

> Find -> find again : "Finde nochmal"
>better "erneut finden", because we do not want to find "nochmal"
> 

+1

> Put -> ... 
>I would take the english names, since they are names of functions and not 
>   some action advice:  "Object" "message"  "number" "symbol" "comment", ...

mostly +1.
"comment" could probably stay as "Kommentar" (but then it might stand
out as the only non-translated widget)

> 
>   Also Radioknopf is wrong, since "Radioschalter"  but "Radiobutton" is 
>anyway german ( https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Radiobutton )

certainly better than "Radioknopf"

>  
>   Very bad is "Feld" for array and "arbeitsfläche" for canvas, since
>   array is a data type

"Feld" is the translation for "graph", not for "array".
"Graph" is german word as well...

>  and Arbeitsfläche means Desktop normally

+1


> 
>  media -> Medien: wrong since Medien in german means "media content" 
> and we switch DSP on/of there tests and settings, so I think its not
>even media in english, more like "System" or Interfaces  

these only catch the hardware aspect, but there's more than that under
this menu...



fgmasr
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Max]

On 08.11.18 15:08, Winfried Ritsch wrote:

Hi, Thanks for coming up with this theme.
Yes some terms are very confusing, So lets start now real discussion about
this. My main issues:

main menu:

File
   message... : "Pd-Nachricht senden" is missleading, Pd-Nachricht is not a
 term which could be found anywhere, better "Message senden..."

I think message should be "message" since SMS every german speaker
knows what a message is.


I disagree, SMS is "Kurznachricht" in German. "Message" is used in 
German in the sense of "Was soll denn die Message dieser Werbeanzeige 
sein?" Message is a neologism for Aussage.


I agree with those:


Preferences -> Startup: Voreinstellungen->Bibliotheken & Startprozess
   It is to long, even not the same  than in english
   I would translate "Startoptionen"

Edit -> Paste replace: Bearbeiten -> Objekte ersetzen
I think "Ersetzen" is enough" although in english objects are not
mentioned
Find -> find again : "Finde nochmal"
better "erneut finden", because we do not want to find "nochmal"

Put -> ...
I would take the english names, since they are names of functions and not
   some action advice:  "Object" "message"  "number" "symbol" "comment", ...


I would keep the current translations here.


   Also Radioknopf is wrong, since "Radioschalter"  but "Radiobutton" is
anyway german ( https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Radiobutton )


Very interesting, TIL. I would suggest "Optionsknopf, Auswahlschalter" 
or something similar. The original Radiobutton where you select the band 
FM / SW / LW (UKW / KW / LW) is only known to people who had such Radio 
and this reference is dying out. (At least for German, I don't know this 
is for English speakers)



   Very bad is "Feld" for array and "arbeitsfläche" for canvas, since
   array is a data type and Arbeitsfläche means Desktop normally


Array:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feld_(Datentyp)

Is Leinwand better for Canvas?



  media -> Medien: wrong since Medien in german means "media content"
 and we switch DSP on/of there tests and settings, so I think its not
even media in english, more like "System" or Interfaces


It's hard to find a short and sensible Word for this, I think even Media 
in the oriiginal doesn't fit either. How are the MIDI settings and the 
Load Meter Media?



The Rest is quite fine, except: "Zusätzliche Objekte im Internet finden",
since "Finde Externals" is more correct.


Is it really? Maybe it will just find the externals on my harddrive


BTW:
Since I use Pd on multiple languages and multiple computers, sometimes on
standard accounts for teaching, I do not change language and don't want to for
others, so let us make a better translation.

Could not agree more!

BTW, we could also make a DE-at version if the Austian terms don't match 
the german ones :)



Max



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 08.11.18 15:08, Winfried Ritsch wrote:
> The Rest is quite fine, except: "Zusätzliche Objekte im Internet finden",
> since "Finde Externals" is more correct.

actually i think that "objekte im internet finden" (find objects in the
internet) is more correct than "find externals".

- "externals" often refers to *compiled* objects, but deken installs
both abstractions and compiled stuff.
- these days, deken searches for libraries *and* objects
- mentioning the "internet" is good, as it makes clear that this
operations requires you to be *online* (apart from the technical aspect
there is also a privacy aspect to this)


otoh, "external" is fuzzy enough to mean both objects not built into Pd
(abstractions, binary blobs,...) and entire libraries, so probably
"Zusätzliche Externals im Internet finden" is a good compromise.

fgmasdr
IOhannes


PS: patches welcome



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Winfried Ritsch]

Hi, Thanks for coming up with this theme.

Yes some terms are very confusing, So lets start now real discussion about 
this. My main issues:

main menu:

File
  message... : "Pd-Nachricht senden" is missleading, Pd-Nachricht is not a
term which could be found anywhere, better "Message senden..."

   I think message should be "message" since SMS every german speaker
   knows what a message is.

   Preferences -> Startup: Voreinstellungen->Bibliotheken & Startprozess
  It is to long, even not the same  than in english 
  I would translate "Startoptionen"

Edit -> Paste replace: Bearbeiten -> Objekte ersetzen
   I think "Ersetzen" is enough" although in english objects are not 
   mentioned
Find -> find again : "Finde nochmal"
   better "erneut finden", because we do not want to find "nochmal"

Put -> ... 
   I would take the english names, since they are names of functions and not 
  some action advice:  "Object" "message"  "number" "symbol" "comment", ...

  Also Radioknopf is wrong, since "Radioschalter"  but "Radiobutton" is 
   anyway german ( https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Radiobutton )
 
  Very bad is "Feld" for array and "arbeitsfläche" for canvas, since
  array is a data type and Arbeitsfläche means Desktop normally

 media -> Medien: wrong since Medien in german means "media content" 
and we switch DSP on/of there tests and settings, so I think its not
   even media in english, more like "System" or Interfaces  

The Rest is quite fine, except: "Zusätzliche Objekte im Internet finden",
since "Finde Externals" is more correct.

mfg
 winfried 

BTW:
Since I use Pd on multiple languages and multiple computers, sometimes on 
standard accounts for teaching, I do not change language and dont want to for 
others, so let us make a better translation.

Am Dienstag, 6. November 2018, 13:15:06 CET schrieb Peter P.:
> Hi list,
> 
> looking at a german translation of Pd right now I am wondering if it
> makes sense to translate technical terms such as object, message, into
> their german-dictionary-counterparts. I find it counter-intuitive to be
> using, like most others, the english words object and messag in german
> but having these a bit awkward translations in the pulldown menus.
> 
> Does anyone else have an oppinion on this? Thanks!
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
Ritsch, Winfried, Ao.Univ.Prof. Dipl.-Ing.
Institut 17 Elektronische Musik und Akustik
Inffeldgasse 10/III,8010 Graz, Austria
E-Mail: rit...@iem.at  - http://iem.at/~ritsch - mobil  ++436642439369


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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 11/7/18 2:11 PM, Antoine Rousseau wrote:
> Maybe a
> preference switch could be added to manually restore the original English
> version?

i was thinking of adding a preference to manually select the language.

gfmsadr
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Dan Wilcox]

All relevant information is in po/README.txt: 
https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/tree/master/po 
<https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/tree/master/po> 

What translations are there were brought over from Pd-extended and most are 
skeletons only. I updated the build integration so it's easier to use and now 
not turned off by default. It might be good to identify those languages that 
are not being maintained and simply remove them for now.

*hint hint* We definitely need a translation push and you don't need to be 
programmer to edit po files using poedit. Maybe these someone interested in 
spearheading one? *hint hint*

Also, for things that don't make sense to translate, like "object" or whatever, 
you can simply change the translation string to an empty string "" and the 
default is used.

> On Nov 7, 2018, at 2:11 PM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> 
> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:40:08 +0100
> From: "Peter P." mailto:peterpar...@fastmail.com>>
> To: IOhannes m zmoelnig mailto:zmoel...@iem.at>>
> Cc: pd-list@lists.iem.at <mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>
> Subject: Re: [PD] German translation of Pd
> Message-ID: <20181107124008.jeqm36wgt6das...@fastmail.com 
> <mailto:20181107124008.jeqm36wgt6das...@fastmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> * IOhannes m zmoelnig mailto:zmoel...@iem.at>> [2018-11-07 
> 13:28]:
>> On 06.11.18 13:15, Peter P. wrote:
>>> Hi list,
>>> 
>>> looking at a german translation of Pd right now I am wondering if it
>>> makes sense to translate technical terms such as object, message, into
>>> their german-dictionary-counterparts. I find it counter-intuitive to be
>>> using, like most others, the english words object and messag in german
>>> but having these a bit awkward translations in the pulldown menus.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone else have an oppinion on this? Thanks!
>> 
>> 
>> i feel your pain.
>> 
>> i mostly use Pd in English (`LANG=C pd`) to ease it.
> Which is great but hard for beginners to do on proprietary operating
> systems. 
> 
> Just today I discovered that even "array" and "graph" are translated to
> something very confusing and unnecessary german, which is never used
> anywhere is Pd's docs or help patches and is hence totally out of
> context. How would one edit the german internationalization of Pd in its
> sources?
> 
> Into how many languages was Pd's GUI translated? Is anyone happy with
> these transations?
> 
> thanks!
> P


Dan Wilcox
@danomatika <http://twitter.com/danomatika>
danomatika.com <http://danomatika.com/>
robotcowboy.com <http://robotcowboy.com/>



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Antoine Rousseau]

I'm personally quite happy with the French translation, but I must admit
that my knowledge of Pd doesn't allow me to fully measure the confusion of
a beginner confronting the docs with the translated GUI.

Also it seems to me that maybe the problem is not equivalent with the
different languages; for e.g in French many words can be found that are
quite near from original:

object -> objet
message -> message
number  -> nombre
symbol -> symbole
comment -> commentaire
bang -> bang
graph -> graphique
canvas -> canvas
vu-meter -> vu-mètre

Of course this is not the same for every word. For e.g "toggle" turns to
"Interrupteur"... And "Slider" has even been kept in English, because no
really usual word was found ("Glissière" is very unusual; "Curseur" may
work though).

So I really don't know if translation should be entirely discarded. Maybe a
preference switch could be added to manually restore the original English
version?

Le mer. 7 nov. 2018 à 13:40, Peter P.  a écrit :

> * IOhannes m zmoelnig  [2018-11-07 13:28]:
> > On 06.11.18 13:15, Peter P. wrote:
> > > Hi list,
> > >
> > > looking at a german translation of Pd right now I am wondering if it
> > > makes sense to translate technical terms such as object, message, into
> > > their german-dictionary-counterparts. I find it counter-intuitive to be
> > > using, like most others, the english words object and messag in german
> > > but having these a bit awkward translations in the pulldown menus.
> > >
> > > Does anyone else have an oppinion on this? Thanks!
> >
> >
> > i feel your pain.
> >
> > i mostly use Pd in English (`LANG=C pd`) to ease it.
> Which is great but hard for beginners to do on proprietary operating
> systems.
>
> Just today I discovered that even "array" and "graph" are translated to
> something very confusing and unnecessary german, which is never used
> anywhere is Pd's docs or help patches and is hence totally out of
> context. How would one edit the german internationalization of Pd in its
> sources?
>
> Into how many languages was Pd's GUI translated? Is anyone happy with
> these transations?
>
> thanks!
> P
>
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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 07.11.18 13:40, Peter P. wrote:
> * IOhannes m zmoelnig  [2018-11-07 13:28]:
>> On 06.11.18 13:15, Peter P. wrote:
>>> Hi list,
>>>
>>> looking at a german translation of Pd right now I am wondering if it
>>> makes sense to translate technical terms such as object, message, into
>>> their german-dictionary-counterparts. I find it counter-intuitive to be
>>> using, like most others, the english words object and messag in german
>>> but having these a bit awkward translations in the pulldown menus.
>>>
>>> Does anyone else have an oppinion on this? Thanks!
>>
>>
>> i feel your pain.
>>
>> i mostly use Pd in English (`LANG=C pd`) to ease it.
> Which is great but hard for beginners to do on proprietary operating
> systems.

well, Pd supports the "LANG" setting on all OSs.
on windows you should be able to set a global environment variable
("System->Settings->foo->bar").
i don't know how to do that on mac.

an alternative is simply to navigate to the Pd-directory, change into
the "po/" directory and remove/rename the offending translation file(s)
(e.g. "de.msg"). after restarting Pd, the (german) translations should
be gone.

> 
> Just today I discovered that even "array" and "graph" are translated to
> something very confusing and unnecessary german, which is never used
> anywhere is Pd's docs or help patches and is hence totally out of
> context. How would one edit the german internationalization of Pd in its
> sources?
> 
> Into how many languages was Pd's GUI translated? Is anyone happy with
> these transations?


~~~sh
$ cd pd/po
$ ls *.po
$ ls *.po
af.po  bg.po  en_ca.po  fr.po  hi.po  pa.po sq.po
az.po  de.po  es.po gu.po  hu.po  pt_br.po  sv.po
be.po  el.po  eu.po he.po  it.po  pt_pt.po  vi.po
~~~

which makes 21 translations (including variants like Canadian English
and Brazilian Portuguese).

iirc, pt_br and fr are quite well maintained, de and es are ok; the rest
is solala and might not have been updated since the Pd-extended days.

i remember having updated the german translations of "array" and
"graph", because i couldn't remember what the original translations were
supposed to mean - everytime i stumbled over them.
i guess that these days, i have touched most of the german translations.
but given my unease with l10n, there is certainly room for improvements.
so help is welcome.


# how to help?
the problem is mainly, that the translations need to be "compiled"
before they can be used. so it's not as simple as telling your students
to edit file x and be happy with a new translation.

so the way of the samurai is:
- get the Pd sources and the tools to compile it
  - also get GNU gettext (so you can build the translation files)
- get a PO-editor, e.g. "poedit"
- use poedit to open the translation you want to change
  e.g. `poedit po/de.po`
- fix all the offending translations
- save and exit poedit
- run "make locales"
  - this will build the required .msg-files from the .po-files
- restart Pd and check whether everything works :-)
- submit a PR on github

you can also distribute the updated .msg file(s) to your students, which
they need to throw into the po/ directory and restart to see an effect.

and don't forget submitting a pull request.

fgmasdr
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[Peter P.]

* IOhannes m zmoelnig  [2018-11-07 13:28]:
> On 06.11.18 13:15, Peter P. wrote:
> > Hi list,
> > 
> > looking at a german translation of Pd right now I am wondering if it
> > makes sense to translate technical terms such as object, message, into
> > their german-dictionary-counterparts. I find it counter-intuitive to be
> > using, like most others, the english words object and messag in german
> > but having these a bit awkward translations in the pulldown menus.
> > 
> > Does anyone else have an oppinion on this? Thanks!
> 
> 
> i feel your pain.
> 
> i mostly use Pd in English (`LANG=C pd`) to ease it.
Which is great but hard for beginners to do on proprietary operating
systems. 

Just today I discovered that even "array" and "graph" are translated to
something very confusing and unnecessary german, which is never used
anywhere is Pd's docs or help patches and is hence totally out of
context. How would one edit the german internationalization of Pd in its
sources?

Into how many languages was Pd's GUI translated? Is anyone happy with
these transations?

thanks!
P



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Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 06.11.18 13:15, Peter P. wrote:
> Hi list,
> 
> looking at a german translation of Pd right now I am wondering if it
> makes sense to translate technical terms such as object, message, into
> their german-dictionary-counterparts. I find it counter-intuitive to be
> using, like most others, the english words object and messag in german
> but having these a bit awkward translations in the pulldown menus.
> 
> Does anyone else have an oppinion on this? Thanks!


i feel your pain.

i mostly use Pd in English (`LANG=C pd`) to ease it.

fgmasdr
IOhannes



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[PD] German translation of Pd

[Peter P.]

Hi list,

looking at a german translation of Pd right now I am wondering if it
makes sense to translate technical terms such as object, message, into
their german-dictionary-counterparts. I find it counter-intuitive to be
using, like most others, the english words object and messag in german
but having these a bit awkward translations in the pulldown menus.

Does anyone else have an oppinion on this? Thanks!

Peter



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