Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
ann sanfedele wrote: [...] perhaps I should be miffed non one quoted me when I said the same thing earlier - (ok, for the humor handicapped, this is supposed to be funny - although I DId say the same thing earlier ) You aren't from the Department of Redundancy Department, are you? Or is it more like GNU is Not Unix? ;-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Doug Franklin wrote: Mark Roberts wrote: Personally, I disagree with that. At least, I'd much rather have subjective critiques of my photos. There is /no/ such thing as an objective critique from a human. There /cannot/ be one. There are ones that make a greater effort than others to be objective, but complete objectivity is a state unknown and unknowable to humans. So, net-net, subjective critiques are all you're gonna get, Mark. :-) I knew I liked you, Doug :) although perhaps I should be miffed non one quoted me when I said the same thing earlier - (ok, for the humor handicapped, this is supposed to be funny - although I DId say the same thing earlier ) ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
From: wendy beard On 10/18/07, John Sessoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. I'm sure more than one person has taken photos of Belgian shepherds, and when you zoom into the image, the dog on the T-shirt has ears that look different from your Tyra image. It is the same. I know it for a fact. I even know whose shop it is. Just have to locate his contact details. Wendy If you say so ... but what I see is: Tyra T-shirt ^ ^ - ^ / \/ \/ \/ \ o o o o u u -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
On 10/18/07, John Sessoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI My photo http://www.pbase.com/wendybeard/image/53154137 His version http://www.cafepress.com/belgians.114253288 Damn cheek Wendy I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. I'm sure more than one person has taken photos of Belgian shepherds, and when you zoom into the image, the dog on the T-shirt has ears that look different from your Tyra image. It is the same. I know it for a fact. I even know whose shop it is. Just have to locate his contact details. Wendy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Exactly right, and my point (which I hope you were seeing). :-) I may not intrinsically like a certain image. But nevertheless, it may be a good image in numerous ways. If I poo-poo it because it's one I would not hang on my wall, then I am judging it subjectively. If I recognize it for qualities which make it rise above, in spite of my preferences of subject matter, then hopefully I'm being objective and fair. If I praise it because it's a poor image, yet of a pretty subject, that might be unfair as well. If I praise it simply because I enjoy photographs... well.. of what value is that? Subjectivity is personal, right? We all have that. As photographers, what I, hopefully you, and ohers wish to avoid, is the notion that because *I* took the photograph, it's a good one. It's hard not to let ego interfere. Tom C. From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:49:38 -0700 I see this thread has been exciting ... unpleasantly so. On Oct 17, 2007, at 7:05 PM, Tom C wrote: So if I don't care for the subject matter of the photo it's right for me to state I think it's a poor image, regardless of any other qualities it may possess? Tom, If the subject matter of a photo is not to your liking, the most you should say is just that. Otherwise, you're acting like a pompous buffoon. Unless there is something about the photo, UNRELATED to the subject matter and whether you like it or not, that is worthy of some positive or constructive remark. And then you should make that remark and shut up. A poor image is something else entirely, not related one whit to whether you like the subject matter. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
The usual responses I get are, Gee that's great, You should be a professional, or my personal favorite, You must have a good camera, while good for the ego, aren't very useful. I have produced plenty of inferior work and don't hesitate to say so. I still do. I only choose to display that which is better than my usual junk. Me too. And I try to only show the good stuff, but sometimes I have a lapse in judgment. Cheers, Dave Totally honest and objective Dave! I have lapses also. I'll be happy to tell you what I think, openly and honestly, and you can tell me. I wish it was this way across the board. I realize there maybe be a small % of opinions I disagree with generally (damn there's ego again). Often I find weeks or months later I agree with those. There's an image I showed months back, grayscale of trees in fog. Bill Robb suggested a different rendering and displayed it. I didn't like his rendering more than mine. In retrospect, I don't like mine either. Try as I did, I determined it was a well seen image, captured poorly, probably impossible to make good. One better not to have shown in the first place. I simply failed all around, no reason to think otherwise. Failure is not bad. Failure to recognize a failure as a failure is the problem. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
One other thought, as you allude to... I often refrain from commenting negatively on a genre which I feel I have little experience or knowledge in. OTOH, I sometimes see outstanding images in those genres I never would have seen or taken, and say so. Tom C. From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:49:38 -0700 I see this thread has been exciting ... unpleasantly so. On Oct 17, 2007, at 7:05 PM, Tom C wrote: So if I don't care for the subject matter of the photo it's right for me to state I think it's a poor image, regardless of any other qualities it may possess? Tom, If the subject matter of a photo is not to your liking, the most you should say is just that. Otherwise, you're acting like a pompous buffoon. Unless there is something about the photo, UNRELATED to the subject matter and whether you like it or not, that is worthy of some positive or constructive remark. And then you should make that remark and shut up. A poor image is something else entirely, not related one whit to whether you like the subject matter. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
List - I behaved badly. I apologize. Back later, Marnie - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Tom C wrote: To your last point, I agree, but ask, who is striving for adequate? Maybe some are. Adequate means the vacation shot gets included in the family album. If that's what I'm shooting for, fine, but I'm generally trying to achieve something beyond that. I have three categories of photography. 1. Photos I take when I'm dismantling something and need to know how it goes back together. As long as the series of pictures show what I need to know, adequate is just fine. 2. Selling on eBay. Over the last couple of years I've seen three images appear, where I have been surprised to see not only something like a picture I took for an item, but it sitting on my table and on my carpet! I got all three images removed but what annoys me most, is that if someone had asked if I would mind if they used my image, and said that it wasn't their picture (but mine) and what they had was very similar, I would have been happy for them to use it. To digress slightly, I said before in another thread on people taking pictures and claiming (or at least implying the work was their own) one of these people admitted he didn't have a camera and it was just as easy to take and use one from the web somewhere! For the last few months I have therefore purposely taken non-perfect pictures for this use; clear enough to see what is for sale but not good enough to steal for someone else to use. I presume if you intend to nick one for your own use, you take a good one, as I've not had the problem since. 3. Photographs for pleasure. Here I don't strive for adequate. I do occasionally do silly things like look at the back of an LX to see how a picture came out! I am slowly over time using digital more. There are however, times where I do strive for adequate. Malcolm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
David Savage wrote: Most critics (be they movie,. book, music, art etc...) don't seem to be popular unless they say nice things Dave, I *highly* recommend the book Your Movie Sucks by Roger Ebert :) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Commenting on photos is something I will do. My comments fall into some general classes. 1. Thanks for sharing the snapshot...a social way of acknowledging the sharing of experiences between friends on the list. 2. Silence, No Comment...There is nothing special or moving or of interest about the photo to me. I won't waste the bandwidth. 3. Silence, No Comment...There are some pretty good photographers here producing some damned fine images. After 3 or 4 others say what and how that is a fine image, I just don't have anything to add. You don't need 250 of us to say 'Atta Boy'. 4. Comments...WOW, 'I hate you', or 'I don't like that' happen when I see something I like/dislike and few others have said anything. These are my subjective opinions. I try to get the right side of my brain to help articulate what the left side is feeling, sometimes successfully. I try to give a specific reason for that feeling. I hope that this kind of critique is more meaningful to the photographer. And overall, the comments should be matched to the photographer. Beginners should get beginner's help and balding old pros should be subject to harsher review. Regards, Bob S. On 10/18/07, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see this thread has been exciting ... unpleasantly so. On Oct 17, 2007, at 7:05 PM, Tom C wrote: So if I don't care for the subject matter of the photo it's right for me to state I think it's a poor image, regardless of any other qualities it may possess? Tom, If the subject matter of a photo is not to your liking, the most you should say is just that. Otherwise, you're acting like a pompous buffoon. Unless there is something about the photo, UNRELATED to the subject matter and whether you like it or not, that is worthy of some positive or constructive remark. And then you should make that remark and shut up. A poor image is something else entirely, not related one whit to whether you like the subject matter. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Good points. You also don't show those photos where you've merely strived for and achieved adequate, those where you were merely trying to record an image, expecting critiques, or positive feedback. I can appreciate adequate. When we were buying our house the real estate photos did not show mountains around the house at all. Nor did it show off any of the architectural styling of the house. It showed the house, looking straight at the garage, and behind it appeared to be a dry barren flat field. The picture was entirely misleading. :-) Tom C. From: Malcolm Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Subject: Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:26:03 +0100 Tom C wrote: To your last point, I agree, but ask, who is striving for adequate? Maybe some are. Adequate means the vacation shot gets included in the family album. If that's what I'm shooting for, fine, but I'm generally trying to achieve something beyond that. I have three categories of photography. 1. Photos I take when I'm dismantling something and need to know how it goes back together. As long as the series of pictures show what I need to know, adequate is just fine. 2. Selling on eBay. Over the last couple of years I've seen three images appear, where I have been surprised to see not only something like a picture I took for an item, but it sitting on my table and on my carpet! I got all three images removed but what annoys me most, is that if someone had asked if I would mind if they used my image, and said that it wasn't their picture (but mine) and what they had was very similar, I would have been happy for them to use it. To digress slightly, I said before in another thread on people taking pictures and claiming (or at least implying the work was their own) one of these people admitted he didn't have a camera and it was just as easy to take and use one from the web somewhere! For the last few months I have therefore purposely taken non-perfect pictures for this use; clear enough to see what is for sale but not good enough to steal for someone else to use. I presume if you intend to nick one for your own use, you take a good one, as I've not had the problem since. 3. Photographs for pleasure. Here I don't strive for adequate. I do occasionally do silly things like look at the back of an LX to see how a picture came out! I am slowly over time using digital more. There are however, times where I do strive for adequate. Malcolm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
On 10/18/07, Bob Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And overall, the comments should be matched to the photographer. Beginners should get beginner's help and balding old pros should be subject to harsher review. What about balding pretenders like me? (Technically I'm at the thinning stage) :-D Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Tom C wrote: Good points. You also don't show those photos where you've merely strived for and achieved adequate, those where you were merely trying to record an image, expecting critiques, or positive feedback. I can appreciate adequate. When we were buying our house the real estate photos did not show mountains around the house at all. Nor did it show off any of the architectural styling of the house. It showed the house, looking straight at the garage, and behind it appeared to be a dry barren flat field. The picture was entirely misleading. :-) I certainly don't try to show them off as photographs in their own right, but I've handed a few across to people doing a similar job in the way you would lend someone a tool to make the work easier. As for positive feedback, like your house, you weren't buying the picture of it, you were buying the item and that's what you get the positive feedback on :-) Estate agents/real estate photograph is an art in it's own right. Had someone with the wallet of Bill Gates been buying a similar property, you would have found the mountains in perfect focus. That's because they would have formed part of the garden. The mountains and views are spectacular around your house, even though they aren't yours! Malcolm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
- Original Message - From: Tom C Subject: RE: Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing I can appreciate adequate. When we were buying our house the real estate photos did not show mountains around the house at all. Nor did it show off any of the architectural styling of the house. It showed the house, looking straight at the garage, and behind it appeared to be a dry barren flat field. The picture was entirely misleading. :-) Dumb realtor, but lucky for you. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Tom - not sure how many smiley's are in your mind at this point -- but in my experience in all artistic endevours over 50 years, competent is pretty much a damned with faint praise kind of thing. In the journeyman world, it is less so. ann Tom C wrote: Insult away, most people here can see through that. There are degrees of competency, of which I'm sure your aware. Everybody and their brother that dabbles with a PC is a computer expert. How competent does one need to be to take a photograph? Assuming the prerequisites of a camera, a recording medium, and a power supply if it's an electronic device, one must: 1. Know to look through the viewfinder (unless they are shooting from the hip) 2. Know where the shutter release is and understand the neccesity of depressing it. I won't mention where focus is at, whether it's desired, or if montion blur is acceptable. Voila, we have a photographer. Tom C. From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:06:35 -0400 Geeze, you don't know what the word means? OK, here's the definition, next time look it up yourself. competent competent (kòm´pî-tent) adjective 1.Properly or sufficiently qualified; capable: a competent typist. 2.Adequate for the purpose: a competent performance. 3.Law. Legally qualified or fit to perform an act. [Middle English, adequate, from Old French, from Latin competêns, competent-, present participle of competere, to be suitable. See compete.] - com´petently adverb The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. Tom C wrote: 1. Graywolf, define competent. Competent This particular image is a work of art. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Malcolm Smith wrote: To digress slightly, I said before in another thread on people taking pictures and claiming (or at least implying the work was their own) one of these people admitted he didn't have a camera and it was just as easy to take and use one from the web somewhere! The worst case of this I encountered was a young photographer who bought something from me and gave me his card... I admired the photo on it and asked where he took it... it was then he told me it wasn't his! For the last few months I have therefore purposely taken non-perfect pictures for this use; I watermark all my photos to be used on ebay with 'annsan scan and the year . But I so seldom sell anything except unusual and used items, I'd be surprised if I was pirated. clear enough to see what is for sale but not good enough to steal for someone else to use. I presume if you intend to nick one for your own use, you take a good one, as I've not had the problem since. I use the best photo I have the patience for :) ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Yes. I was attempting to make a statement that competent is a somewhat ambiguous term. If I'm competent in my job, it's not really that large of a compliment, as competent is only one step above incompetent. No one goes around with self-congratulatory notions in their head because I'm competent. In many aspects of life I struggle JUST TO BE competent. Like in repairing a rain gutter, hanging a door, fixing a faucet. My measure of success there is that it works satisfactorially, even though it took me 3 tries and 10x as long as it should have. Was I competent? Well yes, I got the job done. OTOH, no, I made numerous mistakes and took too long, and who knows how long my work will hold up. The job would be laughable to someone who really knew what they were doing. Likewise, a person with a camera can use it competently, but that judgement of competence is relative to what one was hoping to achieve and how/why they are presenting the image. Here's a smiley just for you. :-) Tom C. From: ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:54:23 -0400 Tom - not sure how many smiley's are in your mind at this point -- but in my experience in all artistic endevours over 50 years, competent is pretty much a damned with faint praise kind of thing. In the journeyman world, it is less so. ann Tom C wrote: Insult away, most people here can see through that. There are degrees of competency, of which I'm sure your aware. Everybody and their brother that dabbles with a PC is a computer expert. How competent does one need to be to take a photograph? Assuming the prerequisites of a camera, a recording medium, and a power supply if it's an electronic device, one must: 1. Know to look through the viewfinder (unless they are shooting from the hip) 2. Know where the shutter release is and understand the neccesity of depressing it. I won't mention where focus is at, whether it's desired, or if montion blur is acceptable. Voila, we have a photographer. Tom C. From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:06:35 -0400 Geeze, you don't know what the word means? OK, here's the definition, next time look it up yourself. competent competent (kòm´pî-tent) adjective 1.Properly or sufficiently qualified; capable: a competent typist. 2.Adequate for the purpose: a competent performance. 3.Law. Legally qualified or fit to perform an act. [Middle English, adequate, from Old French, from Latin competêns, competent-, present participle of competere, to be suitable. See compete.] - com´petently adverb The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. Tom C wrote: 1. Graywolf, define competent. Competent This particular image is a work of art. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
I recently, just today as a matter of fact found one of my photos here: http://bbs.anhuinews.com/thread-197952-1-1.html No idea what it means. Another one here: http://cocorofeel.exblog.jp/6558635/ and one I can't find now of the same image above. My permission was not asked, my name was still on all three. Bothers me, but not enough to do anything. Tom C. From: ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:01:25 -0400 Malcolm Smith wrote: To digress slightly, I said before in another thread on people taking pictures and claiming (or at least implying the work was their own) one of these people admitted he didn't have a camera and it was just as easy to take and use one from the web somewhere! The worst case of this I encountered was a young photographer who bought something from me and gave me his card... I admired the photo on it and asked where he took it... it was then he told me it wasn't his! For the last few months I have therefore purposely taken non-perfect pictures for this use; I watermark all my photos to be used on ebay with 'annsan scan and the year . But I so seldom sell anything except unusual and used items, I'd be surprised if I was pirated. clear enough to see what is for sale but not good enough to steal for someone else to use. I presume if you intend to nick one for your own use, you take a good one, as I've not had the problem since. I use the best photo I have the patience for :) ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Tom C wrote: My permission was not asked, my name was still on all three. Bothers me, but not enough to do anything. Great pictures too, no doubt why they were grabbed. Ann said that she uses watermarks but when you are dealing with people with no cameras or those that think just taking an image that is on the internet is fair game, they will still (potentially) get used. I have to say Tom that I think your attitude to this situation is better than mine. Malcolm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
My sense is that they were being used as examples or to illustrate something regarding the Pentax brand. It's far different than the guy that took my aurora photos, posted them on his sub-page of a mountaineering site and pretended as if he was the photographer, with the ficticious date and place. That made me mad! :-) Tom C. From: Malcolm Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Subject: RE: What? was Striving for adequate;was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:14:26 +0100 Tom C wrote: My permission was not asked, my name was still on all three. Bothers me, but not enough to do anything. Great pictures too, no doubt why they were grabbed. Ann said that she uses watermarks but when you are dealing with people with no cameras or those that think just taking an image that is on the internet is fair game, they will still (potentially) get used. I have to say Tom that I think your attitude to this situation is better than mine. Malcolm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Tom C wrote: I recently, just today as a matter of fact found one of my photos here: http://bbs.anhuinews.com/thread-197952-1-1.html No idea what it means. Another one here: http://cocorofeel.exblog.jp/6558635/ and one I can't find now of the same image above. My permission was not asked, my name was still on all three. Bothers me, but not enough to do anything. Tom C. At least the credited you - that's a plus :) ann From: ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:01:25 -0400 Malcolm Smith wrote: To digress slightly, I said before in another thread on people taking pictures and claiming (or at least implying the work was their own) one of these people admitted he didn't have a camera and it was just as easy to take and use one from the web somewhere! The worst case of this I encountered was a young photographer who bought something from me and gave me his card... I admired the photo on it and asked where he took it... it was then he told me it wasn't his! For the last few months I have therefore purposely taken non-perfect pictures for this use; I watermark all my photos to be used on ebay with 'annsan scan and the year . But I so seldom sell anything except unusual and used items, I'd be surprised if I was pirated. clear enough to see what is for sale but not good enough to steal for someone else to use. I presume if you intend to nick one for your own use, you take a good one, as I've not had the problem since. I use the best photo I have the patience for :) ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
I'll cherish the smiley, Tom :) Tom C wrote: Yes. I was attempting to make a statement that competent is a somewhat ambiguous term. In the context of this discussion that's a deliciously funny line :) we could start a whole knew thread of word play here! xo, ann If I'm competent in my job, it's not really that large of a compliment, as competent is only one step above incompetent. No one goes around with self-congratulatory notions in their head because I'm competent. In many aspects of life I struggle JUST TO BE competent. Like in repairing a rain gutter, hanging a door, fixing a faucet. My measure of success there is that it works satisfactorially, even though it took me 3 tries and 10x as long as it should have. Was I competent? Well yes, I got the job done. OTOH, no, I made numerous mistakes and took too long, and who knows how long my work will hold up. The job would be laughable to someone who really knew what they were doing. Likewise, a person with a camera can use it competently, but that judgement of competence is relative to what one was hoping to achieve and how/why they are presenting the image. Here's a smiley just for you. :-) Tom C. From: ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:54:23 -0400 Tom - not sure how many smiley's are in your mind at this point -- but in my experience in all artistic endevours over 50 years, competent is pretty much a damned with faint praise kind of thing. In the journeyman world, it is less so. ann Tom C wrote: Insult away, most people here can see through that. There are degrees of competency, of which I'm sure your aware. Everybody and their brother that dabbles with a PC is a computer expert. How competent does one need to be to take a photograph? Assuming the prerequisites of a camera, a recording medium, and a power supply if it's an electronic device, one must: 1. Know to look through the viewfinder (unless they are shooting from the hip) 2. Know where the shutter release is and understand the neccesity of depressing it. I won't mention where focus is at, whether it's desired, or if montion blur is acceptable. Voila, we have a photographer. Tom C. From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:06:35 -0400 Geeze, you don't know what the word means? OK, here's the definition, next time look it up yourself. competent competent (kòm´pî-tent) adjective 1.Properly or sufficiently qualified; capable: a competent typist. 2.Adequate for the purpose: a competent performance. 3.Law. Legally qualified or fit to perform an act. [Middle English, adequate, from Old French, from Latin competêns, competent-, present participle of competere, to be suitable. See compete.] - com´petently adverb The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. Tom C wrote: 1. Graywolf, define competent. Competent This particular image is a work of art. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
LOL. Pure blathering on my part. It's snowing in Idaho today!!! Woohoo! Tom C. From: ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:59:18 -0400 I'll cherish the smiley, Tom :) Tom C wrote: Yes. I was attempting to make a statement that competent is a somewhat ambiguous term. In the context of this discussion that's a deliciously funny line :) we could start a whole knew thread of word play here! xo, ann If I'm competent in my job, it's not really that large of a compliment, as competent is only one step above incompetent. No one goes around with self-congratulatory notions in their head because I'm competent. In many aspects of life I struggle JUST TO BE competent. Like in repairing a rain gutter, hanging a door, fixing a faucet. My measure of success there is that it works satisfactorially, even though it took me 3 tries and 10x as long as it should have. Was I competent? Well yes, I got the job done. OTOH, no, I made numerous mistakes and took too long, and who knows how long my work will hold up. The job would be laughable to someone who really knew what they were doing. Likewise, a person with a camera can use it competently, but that judgement of competence is relative to what one was hoping to achieve and how/why they are presenting the image. Here's a smiley just for you. :-) Tom C. From: ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:54:23 -0400 Tom - not sure how many smiley's are in your mind at this point -- but in my experience in all artistic endevours over 50 years, competent is pretty much a damned with faint praise kind of thing. In the journeyman world, it is less so. ann Tom C wrote: Insult away, most people here can see through that. There are degrees of competency, of which I'm sure your aware. Everybody and their brother that dabbles with a PC is a computer expert. How competent does one need to be to take a photograph? Assuming the prerequisites of a camera, a recording medium, and a power supply if it's an electronic device, one must: 1. Know to look through the viewfinder (unless they are shooting from the hip) 2. Know where the shutter release is and understand the neccesity of depressing it. I won't mention where focus is at, whether it's desired, or if montion blur is acceptable. Voila, we have a photographer. Tom C. From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:06:35 -0400 Geeze, you don't know what the word means? OK, here's the definition, next time look it up yourself. competent competent (kòm´pî-tent) adjective 1.Properly or sufficiently qualified; capable: a competent typist. 2.Adequate for the purpose: a competent performance. 3.Law. Legally qualified or fit to perform an act. [Middle English, adequate, from Old French, from Latin competêns, competent-, present participle of competere, to be suitable. See compete.] - com´petently adverb The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. Tom C wrote: 1. Graywolf, define competent. Competent This particular image is a work of art. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Sort of related to Ann's cafepress thread - I went to her store to buy a calendar and surfed around a bit in some other stores. Came across one store where the shopkeeper had nicked one of my photos and fiddled around with it and added it to his inventory - with his signature on it! FYI My photo http://www.pbase.com/wendybeard/image/53154137 His version http://www.cafepress.com/belgians.114253288 Damn cheek Wendy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Snow? I wish. -Adam Who wants his winter. Tom C wrote: LOL. Pure blathering on my part. It's snowing in Idaho today!!! Woohoo! Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
An interesting comment was in a movie I was watching yesterday. The Movie was Dingo from 1991 and the John Anderson character wanted the Billy Cross character to listen to his demo cassette. Cross said, I don't want to hear it. If I like it you will think I was just being nice. If I don't like it you will be hurt. I have had the music sound track since about 1992-93 but this was the first time I had seen the movie all the way through. The music was great, the story was less than so-so except for that one line that seems to belong in this thread. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Filing a complaint already I hope. Even though converted, the reflections in the eyes would seem to give it away. I never imagined Bill would do something like that. You just never can tell who your friends are. Tom C. From: wendy beard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: What? was Striving for adequate;was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:49:56 -0400 Sort of related to Ann's cafepress thread - I went to her store to buy a calendar and surfed around a bit in some other stores. Came across one store where the shopkeeper had nicked one of my photos and fiddled around with it and added it to his inventory - with his signature on it! FYI My photo http://www.pbase.com/wendybeard/image/53154137 His version http://www.cafepress.com/belgians.114253288 Damn cheek Wendy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Those are, IMO, most definitely the same image, The highlights pattern in the fur are frighteningly similar. You could buy one to make certain. If your sure that it is your sho,t I'd send the seller a polite email asking them to remove it, as it's in violation of the cafepress Content Usage Policy guidelines: Is it ok to use an image I found on the Internet? Simply because an image is found on the Internet does not mean that it is in the public domain or available for commercial use on merchandise. You should assume that you cannot use the work unless the author of the work has explicitly granted you a license to use the work or it is in the public domain. Further, a person who posts an image on the Internet and claims that you are free to use it may not have had the right to post the image in the first place. Thus, your use of the image may violate the rights of the actual copyright owner. .and I based my artwork on the artwork of a third party, is that ok? It depends. Artwork derived from the previous work of another may violate the rights of the owner of the previous work. If you are creating a design that is based on the work of someone else, you may need to obtain permission from the original creator prior to creating your own work. You should consult with an attorney before using works based on the work of another through the CafePress Service. If that doesn't work alert Cafepress. And if that doesn't work, release the hounds, so to speak. Cheers, Dave On 10/19/07, wendy beard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sort of related to Ann's cafepress thread - I went to her store to buy a calendar and surfed around a bit in some other stores. Came across one store where the shopkeeper had nicked one of my photos and fiddled around with it and added it to his inventory - with his signature on it! FYI My photo http://www.pbase.com/wendybeard/image/53154137 His version http://www.cafepress.com/belgians.114253288 Damn cheek Wendy -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
It's hard to tell but it certainly looks like its the same. I'm not sure what your recourse is besides sending a cease and desist letter. wendy beard wrote: Sort of related to Ann's cafepress thread - I went to her store to buy a calendar and surfed around a bit in some other stores. Came across one store where the shopkeeper had nicked one of my photos and fiddled around with it and added it to his inventory - with his signature on it! FYI My photo http://www.pbase.com/wendybeard/image/53154137 His version http://www.cafepress.com/belgians.114253288 Damn cheek Wendy -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
- Original Message - From: Tom C Subject: Re: What? was Striving for adequate;was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing I never imagined Bill would do something like that. You just never can tell who your friends are. Har. Wrong breed. Belgians are chew toys for real dogs g William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
From: wendy beard Sort of related to Ann's cafepress thread - I went to her store to buy a calendar and surfed around a bit in some other stores. Came across one store where the shopkeeper had nicked one of my photos and fiddled around with it and added it to his inventory - with his signature on it! FYI My photo http://www.pbase.com/wendybeard/image/53154137 His version http://www.cafepress.com/belgians.114253288 Damn cheek Wendy I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. I'm sure more than one person has taken photos of Belgian shepherds, and when you zoom into the image, the dog on the T-shirt has ears that look different from your Tyra image. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In a message dated 10/15/2007 9:24:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And stop posting pictures here, because you won't get an accurate opinion about what is good from this list. William Robb === I beg to differ. Only someone who showed his own photos on list so rarely would think this. The feedback here is fairly accurate. Especially once one knows that some never give negative feedback and some find something nice to say regardless. But tepid praise is tepid praise. If something is good, lots of feedback, if something is adequate or so-so, no or minimal feedback. Or feedback on the technical aspects, but not wow that grabs me. And, yes, sometimes outright neutral or negative feedback such as that doesn't do any for me. Over time it becomes pretty obvious to the people showing what kind of feedback they are getting (on a particular photo). And as far as I can tell the whole range of of feedback, from lots to minimal, has happened to everyone on this list who shows. (Well, maybe except for a 1-3 that we hate.) I also think it's a mistake to underrate the courage of sharing one's photos -- here or anywhere. Doing so is always a little risky because of the potential for negative feedback and it is also a learning experience hearing what others think and, ergo, not a bad thing to do. I know that I have improved as a photographer by sharing here. Marnie aka Doe :-) - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing In a message dated 10/15/2007 9:24:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And stop posting pictures here, because you won't get an accurate opinion about what is good from this list. William Robb === I beg to differ. Only someone who showed his own photos on list so rarely would think this. Chicken or egg, dear? When I see people who indiscriminately praise everything thats posted, whether tepid or otherwise, I tend to lose respect for the entire process. Rather than damning with faint praise, which does no good at all, perhaps it would be more honest to call spades what they are. Often, this list is little more than a circle jerk when it comes to reviewing pictures. It's a nice, warm and happy place, and I appreciate that people need that in their lives, but the best way to improve your pictures is to have it ruthlessly picked apart, and have the failings of the picture pointed out. Unfortunately, when people do that, they tend to get spat on. I don't post a lot of photos at the moment because most of my photography right now is client based for the studio I am working for, and I'm not bothering with securing permission to show the stuff. My work is selling, and making money, I don't need praise beyond that. We can agree to disagree on this one, I won't think less of you for it, and I hope you'll feel the same way. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
William Robb wrote: This list is little more than a circle jerk when it comes to reviewing pictures. MARK! -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
I think it and I show photos often. I appreciate both positive and negative feedback. However, when I see photo after photo presented that I would have tossed in the trash, and THOSE images receive high praise, then it raises the possibility that I must discount the positive feedback I receive, as the feedback may be erroneous or the image is not as worth as much I may have thought. If someone is sharing an image out of camaraderie it's one thing. In that case the person is likely not expecting feedback about the image, but possibly just about the subject, as when I displayed the photos of the chihuahua. It seems though that almost every image is viewed as exceptional. I agree with Bill on this. If I critiqued every image displayed I'd not be very well liked. So I save my sincere positive feedback for those that are very well done, and I may offer sincere suggestions for those that I feel almost make it, but could use improvement. One must also take into consideration the experience of the one making the comments. Perceptions and the ability to view critically grow with time. Images that I once thought were very good, now present glaring deficiencies when I view them. They may have been the best I had done at the time, but in hindsight I see they were not a good as I once thought. Tom C. From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:10:48 -0600 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing In a message dated 10/15/2007 9:24:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And stop posting pictures here, because you won't get an accurate opinion about what is good from this list. William Robb === I beg to differ. Only someone who showed his own photos on list so rarely would think this. Chicken or egg, dear? When I see people who indiscriminately praise everything thats posted, whether tepid or otherwise, I tend to lose respect for the entire process. Rather than damning with faint praise, which does no good at all, perhaps it would be more honest to call spades what they are. Often, this list is little more than a circle jerk when it comes to reviewing pictures. It's a nice, warm and happy place, and I appreciate that people need that in their lives, but the best way to improve your pictures is to have it ruthlessly picked apart, and have the failings of the picture pointed out. Unfortunately, when people do that, they tend to get spat on. I don't post a lot of photos at the moment because most of my photography right now is client based for the studio I am working for, and I'm not bothering with securing permission to show the stuff. My work is selling, and making money, I don't need praise beyond that. We can agree to disagree on this one, I won't think less of you for it, and I hope you'll feel the same way. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In a message dated 10/17/2007 8:08:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Chicken or egg, dear? When I see people who indiscriminately praise everything thats posted, whether tepid or otherwise, I tend to lose respect for the entire process. Rather than damning with faint praise, which does no good at all, perhaps it would be more honest to call spades what they are. Often, this list is little more than a circle jerk when it comes to reviewing pictures. It's a nice, warm and happy place, and I appreciate that people need that in their lives, but the best way to improve your pictures is to have it ruthlessly picked apart, and have the failings of the picture pointed out. Unfortunately, when people do that, they tend to get spat on. I don't post a lot of photos at the moment because most of my photography right now is client based for the studio I am working for, and I'm not bothering with securing permission to show the stuff. My work is selling, and making money, I don't need praise beyond that. We can agree to disagree on this one, I won't think less of you for it, and I hope you'll feel the same way. William Robb - A lot of us say nothing when we do not like a photo -- we've talked about this a lot over the years. When you share you get used to who says what and over time you know who is not chiming in -- ergo lots or minimal reactions. Minimal means many are not saying anything which is telling all by itself. There are very few indiscriminate praisers here -- I don't see that happening. What you don't get is that if someone likes something and someone else doesn't, it means it rang bells with someone and maybe not with the other 80-90%. That is valuable information too. And reactions are subjective. As I said before, when one shows photos one gets a fairly good idea of how good the photo is by the reactions on list -- lots of reactions to minimal reactions to lukewarm reactions to high praise. I get tired of this idea that there is no point in showing photos here and that we all have our heads up our asses. That if one person says they like a photo that the shower is stupid enough to think it means everyone likes it. We don't. You really think we're all stupid don't you? We know what kind of feedback we get. Later, Marnie - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Just because I do not comment does not mean I am condemning a photo. I usually only comment when a photo does something for me personally. I try not to criticize photos unless someone asks for technical help. Furthermore I do not look at a lot of them, because I do not have enough time to do so. And I am not much interested in others comments about someone's photo, I am not that insecure. I do like to think that I have been helpful to beginners, either at photography or trying to break into the business, a time or two here on the list. Overall that is for them to decide however. The fact is that most of the folks posting photos to this list are competent photographers. If they are so insecure that they need constant praise they should see a good shrink (There is no negativity implied, I have and continue to do so myself. Crap programmed into someone in early childhood continues to make life difficult even decades later.) Read a lot, look at thousands of photos, eventually you get so you do not have to analyze them you just feel it (And, as anyone who reads the list much knows, I am a very analytical person). Most of us are only going to make a few gut grabber photos in our lifetime, those are the ones you remember forever once you have seen them. I have discovered that the majority of photography buyers do not want art. The want competently done snapshots. Even the art buyers do not really want art, they want competently done snapshots by famous, or potentially famous photographers. My own problem was that I am from a blue collar background, have lived amongst blue collar people, and think like blue collar people. You know, the ones who still think $20 is a lot of money. If you work for folks who think $200 is pocket change you can make a decent living from photography. Sorry for the stream of consciousness monologue. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - A lot of us say nothing when we do not like a photo -- we've talked about this a lot over the years. When you share you get used to who says what and over time you know who is not chiming in -- ergo lots or minimal reactions. Minimal means many are not saying anything which is telling all by itself. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In a message dated 10/17/2007 11:05:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The fact is that most of the folks posting photos to this list are competent photographers. If they are so insecure that they need constant praise they should see a good shrink = Yup. I would just add if someone wants weighted comments like a jury panel, they can enter shows. If someone wants feedback that is more critical, i.e. brutal, meant to improve their photos, they can take a class. If someone wants to be more competitive and see how they rank against others, they can join a camera club. Also, this is a hobby for about 90-99% of us and meant to be fun. It's nice to have a venue like PDML to show photos and get reactions. Some of us may have very uninterested family and friends and, for various reasons, aren't interested in other venues. Although many of us have also used those venues. So I maintain that us who show can tell over time what kind of feedback we are getting (on a particular photo). Because of the no comments, the type of comments, who comments and what they say, etc. Experience tells us, if nothing else. We are not stupid and we are quite capable of evaluating the feedback we get on our own. We don't need someone else evaluating that feedback for us, maybe attempting to be some sort of PDML arbitrator. Marnie aka Doe :-) - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Tom C wrote: If someone is sharing an image out of camaraderie it's one thing. In that case the person is likely not expecting feedback about the image, but possibly just about the subject, as when I displayed the photos of the chihuahua. It seems though that almost every image is viewed as exceptional. One must also take into consideration the experience of the one making the comments. Perceptions and the ability to view critically grow with time. Images that I once thought were very good, now present glaring deficiencies when I view them. They may have been the best I had done at the time, but in hindsight I see they were not a good as I once thought. Tom C. I think the opposite happens occasionally too one reason I never literally toss stuff I've done even if I think it is lousy work :) Now and then I find something in my archives taht I think is worth something and I chose a different negative to print... I might find myself liking the one a rejected years ago better than the one I chose as what I thought had the most promise. In terms of commenting on others here, I generally give a nod to those I enjoy but if I feel I can help by serious critquing I tend to do that off list... IF something really sucks I keep my fingers off the keyboard :) ann From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:10:48 -0600 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing In a message dated 10/15/2007 9:24:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And stop posting pictures here, because you won't get an accurate opinion about what is good from this list. William Robb === I beg to differ. Only someone who showed his own photos on list so rarely would think this. Chicken or egg, dear? When I see people who indiscriminately praise everything thats posted, whether tepid or otherwise, I tend to lose respect for the entire process. Rather than damning with faint praise, which does no good at all, perhaps it would be more honest to call spades what they are. Often, this list is little more than a circle jerk when it comes to reviewing pictures. It's a nice, warm and happy place, and I appreciate that people need that in their lives, but the best way to improve your pictures is to have it ruthlessly picked apart, and have the failings of the picture pointed out. Unfortunately, when people do that, they tend to get spat on. I don't post a lot of photos at the moment because most of my photography right now is client based for the studio I am working for, and I'm not bothering with securing permission to show the stuff. My work is selling, and making money, I don't need praise beyond that. We can agree to disagree on this one, I won't think less of you for it, and I hope you'll feel the same way. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In the future, I'll be especially eager to read your comments re my stuff. grin Jack --- ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom C wrote: If someone is sharing an image out of camaraderie it's one thing. In that case the person is likely not expecting feedback about the image, but possibly just about the subject, as when I displayed the photos of the chihuahua. It seems though that almost every image is viewed as exceptional. One must also take into consideration the experience of the one making the comments. Perceptions and the ability to view critically grow with time. Images that I once thought were very good, now present glaring deficiencies when I view them. They may have been the best I had done at the time, but in hindsight I see they were not a good as I once thought. Tom C. I think the opposite happens occasionally too one reason I never literally toss stuff I've done even if I think it is lousy work :) Now and then I find something in my archives taht I think is worth something and I chose a different negative to print... I might find myself liking the one a rejected years ago better than the one I chose as what I thought had the most promise. In terms of commenting on others here, I generally give a nod to those I enjoy but if I feel I can help by serious critquing I tend to do that off list... IF something really sucks I keep my fingers off the keyboard :) ann From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:10:48 -0600 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing In a message dated 10/15/2007 9:24:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And stop posting pictures here, because you won't get an accurate opinion about what is good from this list. William Robb === I beg to differ. Only someone who showed his own photos on list so rarely would think this. Chicken or egg, dear? When I see people who indiscriminately praise everything thats posted, whether tepid or otherwise, I tend to lose respect for the entire process. Rather than damning with faint praise, which does no good at all, perhaps it would be more honest to call spades what they are. Often, this list is little more than a circle jerk when it comes to reviewing pictures. It's a nice, warm and happy place, and I appreciate that people need that in their lives, but the best way to improve your pictures is to have it ruthlessly picked apart, and have the failings of the picture pointed out. Unfortunately, when people do that, they tend to get spat on. I don't post a lot of photos at the moment because most of my photography right now is client based for the studio I am working for, and I'm not bothering with securing permission to show the stuff. My work is selling, and making money, I don't need praise beyond that. We can agree to disagree on this one, I won't think less of you for it, and I hope you'll feel the same way. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
I think the opposite happens occasionally too one reason I never literally toss stuff I've done even if I think it is lousy work :) Now and then I find something in my archives taht I think is worth something and I chose a different negative to print... I might find myself liking the one a rejected years ago better than the one I chose as what I thought had the most promise. That occasionally happens to me. The stuff that is really junk though I get rid of immediately so I don't waste time accidentally viewing it again. Thumbnails in Adobe Bridge look sharp, but then I click and say Oh, yeah I remember why I didn't use this. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 10/17/2007 11:05:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The fact is that most of the folks posting photos to this list are competent photographers. If they are so insecure that they need constant praise they should see a good shrink = Yup. I would just add if someone wants weighted comments like a jury panel, they can enter shows. If someone wants feedback that is more critical, i.e. brutal, meant to improve their photos, they can take a class. If someone wants to be more competitive and see how they rank against others, they can join a camera club. 1. Graywolf, define competent. Competent This particular image is a work of art. 2. The above is immaterial, to which I say Bologna!. When I or some others post a photo for display here, we WANT a critical appraisal, and we're not just doing it for fun (although it is fun). One might expect that a photography list with many experienced photographers would see it that way. As Mr. Robb has pointed out , it's apparent this isn't the best venue for that. I've known it for a long time. On the other hand if you want somewhat to comment positively on an image, no matter how crappy it is, this IS the right venue. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
It's the only way we grow, right. ;-) If I tell you a mediocre image is great, you may just keep on taking mediocre images thinking they're great. I may be kind, but I'm doing you a disservice... and vice-versa of course. ;-) Tom C. From: Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:43:18 -0700 (PDT) In the future, I'll be especially eager to read your comments re my stuff. grin Jack --- ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom C wrote: If someone is sharing an image out of camaraderie it's one thing. In that case the person is likely not expecting feedback about the image, but possibly just about the subject, as when I displayed the photos of the chihuahua. It seems though that almost every image is viewed as exceptional. One must also take into consideration the experience of the one making the comments. Perceptions and the ability to view critically grow with time. Images that I once thought were very good, now present glaring deficiencies when I view them. They may have been the best I had done at the time, but in hindsight I see they were not a good as I once thought. Tom C. I think the opposite happens occasionally too one reason I never literally toss stuff I've done even if I think it is lousy work :) Now and then I find something in my archives taht I think is worth something and I chose a different negative to print... I might find myself liking the one a rejected years ago better than the one I chose as what I thought had the most promise. In terms of commenting on others here, I generally give a nod to those I enjoy but if I feel I can help by serious critquing I tend to do that off list... IF something really sucks I keep my fingers off the keyboard :) ann From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:10:48 -0600 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing In a message dated 10/15/2007 9:24:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And stop posting pictures here, because you won't get an accurate opinion about what is good from this list. William Robb === I beg to differ. Only someone who showed his own photos on list so rarely would think this. Chicken or egg, dear? When I see people who indiscriminately praise everything thats posted, whether tepid or otherwise, I tend to lose respect for the entire process. Rather than damning with faint praise, which does no good at all, perhaps it would be more honest to call spades what they are. Often, this list is little more than a circle jerk when it comes to reviewing pictures. It's a nice, warm and happy place, and I appreciate that people need that in their lives, but the best way to improve your pictures is to have it ruthlessly picked apart, and have the failings of the picture pointed out. Unfortunately, when people do that, they tend to get spat on. I don't post a lot of photos at the moment because most of my photography right now is client based for the studio I am working for, and I'm not bothering with securing permission to show the stuff. My work is selling, and making money, I don't need praise beyond that. We can agree to disagree on this one, I won't think less of you for it, and I hope you'll feel the same way. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In a message dated 10/17/2007 12:59:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I tell you a mediocre image is great, you may just keep on taking mediocre images thinking they're great. I may be kind, but I'm doing you a disservice... and vice-versa of course. ;-) Tom C. === Again you make the mistake of thinking we are dumb. And cannot evaluate our own feedback -- in light of who gives it and what they say. Oh, well, think what you like. It really matters little. Marnie aka Doe ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
On 17/10/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED], discombobulated, unleashed: Also, this is a hobby for about 90-99% of us and meant to be fun. It's nice to have a venue like PDML to show photos and get reactions. I'm only interested in lens-envy. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
The mane :-) reason i keep everything, is i found out early in the equine game, just because i didi not like the shot, does not mean some kid or grandmother does not. I have sold many pictures i would never buy myself, but granny loved it. Ergo, i keep 'em all. :-) Dave On 10/16/07, Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: skye pdml wrote: put up everything (gah!) except my worst mistakes assuming that each parent would interested in their specific child. I often get into that mode when I'm shooting amateur races. As a racer myself, I know full well that a lot of the folks out there simply want photos of themselves on track during the event, and they're not going to get too bent out of shape if it's not the oversharpened crap that shows up so often in the motorsports magazines. :-) I don't sell the shots, but I've been known occasionally to give prints to the drivers or teams if they ask nicely. Mostly all I do with them is enjoy them myself and put them up on the site so that the entrants and their families/friends/etc. can see their boy/girl on track. When shooting pro events, I'm shooting exclusively for myself and my brother. In the past, I've done the same show it all (well almost) mentality for those galleries. I don't think I'm going to do that for the '07 Petit that I'm gallerying up right now. I'm still going to have trouble getting the gallery below thirty to fifty images, though, especially factoring in the non-car-on-track shots. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Equine Photography www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ Ontario Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Wait a minute, a lot of my stuff never gets comments which implies that a lot of my stuff is crappy. But I already knew that. Tom C wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 10/17/2007 11:05:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The fact is that most of the folks posting photos to this list are competent photographers. If they are so insecure that they need constant praise they should see a good shrink = Yup. I would just add if someone wants weighted comments like a jury panel, they can enter shows. If someone wants feedback that is more critical, i.e. brutal, meant to improve their photos, they can take a class. If someone wants to be more competitive and see how they rank against others, they can join a camera club. 1. Graywolf, define competent. Competent This particular image is a work of art. 2. The above is immaterial, to which I say Bologna!. When I or some others post a photo for display here, we WANT a critical appraisal, and we're not just doing it for fun (although it is fun). One might expect that a photography list with many experienced photographers would see it that way. As Mr. Robb has pointed out , it's apparent this isn't the best venue for that. I've known it for a long time. On the other hand if you want somewhat to comment positively on an image, no matter how crappy it is, this IS the right venue. Tom C. -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Not possible, of course, but I'd like to have a way to guarantee that everyone should critique without having read others. I imagine there are some who will not comment 'til they first have had a chance to check what's being written. I will intentionally avoid reading critiques prior to writing and sending mine. Gives me a the tiniest (probably false) sense of integrity. :) In my case, a very rare thing. Jack --- Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's the only way we grow, right. ;-) If I tell you a mediocre image is great, you may just keep on taking mediocre images thinking they're great. I may be kind, but I'm doing you a disservice... and vice-versa of course. ;-) Tom C. From: Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:43:18 -0700 (PDT) In the future, I'll be especially eager to read your comments re my stuff. grin Jack --- ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom C wrote: If someone is sharing an image out of camaraderie it's one thing. In that case the person is likely not expecting feedback about the image, but possibly just about the subject, as when I displayed the photos of the chihuahua. It seems though that almost every image is viewed as exceptional. One must also take into consideration the experience of the one making the comments. Perceptions and the ability to view critically grow with time. Images that I once thought were very good, now present glaring deficiencies when I view them. They may have been the best I had done at the time, but in hindsight I see they were not a good as I once thought. Tom C. I think the opposite happens occasionally too one reason I never literally toss stuff I've done even if I think it is lousy work :) Now and then I find something in my archives taht I think is worth something and I chose a different negative to print... I might find myself liking the one a rejected years ago better than the one I chose as what I thought had the most promise. In terms of commenting on others here, I generally give a nod to those I enjoy but if I feel I can help by serious critquing I tend to do that off list... IF something really sucks I keep my fingers off the keyboard :) ann From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:10:48 -0600 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing In a message dated 10/15/2007 9:24:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And stop posting pictures here, because you won't get an accurate opinion about what is good from this list. William Robb === I beg to differ. Only someone who showed his own photos on list so rarely would think this. Chicken or egg, dear? When I see people who indiscriminately praise everything thats posted, whether tepid or otherwise, I tend to lose respect for the entire process. Rather than damning with faint praise, which does no good at all, perhaps it would be more honest to call spades what they are. Often, this list is little more than a circle jerk when it comes to reviewing pictures. It's a nice, warm and happy place, and I appreciate that people need that in their lives, but the best way to improve your pictures is to have it ruthlessly picked apart, and have the failings of the picture pointed out. Unfortunately, when people do that, they tend to get spat on. I don't post a lot of photos at the moment because most of my photography right now is client based for the studio I am working for, and I'm not bothering with securing permission to show the stuff. My work is selling, and making money, I don't need praise beyond that. We can agree to disagree on this one, I won't think less of you for it, and I hope you'll feel the same way. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In a message dated 10/17/2007 1:12:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 17/10/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED], discombobulated, unleashed: Also, this is a hobby for about 90-99% of us and meant to be fun. It's nice to have a venue like PDML to show photos and get reactions. I'm only interested in lens-envy. -- Cheers, Cotty === LOL. Mark! Marnie aka Doe :-) - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In a message dated 10/17/2007 1:44:57 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not possible, of course, but I'd like to have a way to guarantee that everyone should critique without having read others. I imagine there are some who will not comment 'til they first have had a chance to check what's being written. I will intentionally avoid reading critiques prior to writing and sending mine. Gives me a the tiniest (probably false) sense of integrity. :) In my case, a very rare thing. Jack I usually comment without looking at others' comments beforehand. I only look at others' comments first about 1/3 (or less) of the time. It is usually when I don't know what to say or quite how I feel about the photo. So I look at other's comments in order to quote someone else or see if they have zeroed in what bothered me or, on the other hand, what sold me on the photo, when I was vague about it. But on the whole I feel that my reactions, without looking at others' comments first, are truer. Marnie - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
There is limits, you know. ;-) Tom C. From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:20:38 -0400 Wait a minute, a lot of my stuff never gets comments which implies that a lot of my stuff is crappy. But I already knew that. Tom C wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 10/17/2007 11:05:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The fact is that most of the folks posting photos to this list are competent photographers. If they are so insecure that they need constant praise they should see a good shrink = Yup. I would just add if someone wants weighted comments like a jury panel, they can enter shows. If someone wants feedback that is more critical, i.e. brutal, meant to improve their photos, they can take a class. If someone wants to be more competitive and see how they rank against others, they can join a camera club. 1. Graywolf, define competent. Competent This particular image is a work of art. 2. The above is immaterial, to which I say Bologna!. When I or some others post a photo for display here, we WANT a critical appraisal, and we're not just doing it for fun (although it is fun). One might expect that a photography list with many experienced photographers would see it that way. As Mr. Robb has pointed out , it's apparent this isn't the best venue for that. I've known it for a long time. On the other hand if you want somewhat to comment positively on an image, no matter how crappy it is, this IS the right venue. Tom C. -- Remember, its pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
That's exactly my approach when commenting. I view, then comment w/o reading others' comments first, for the same reason. Tom C. From: Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Not possible, of course, but I'd like to have a way to guarantee that everyone should critique without having read others. I imagine there are some who will not comment 'til they first have had a chance to check what's being written. I will intentionally avoid reading critiques prior to writing and sending mine. Gives me a the tiniest (probably false) sense of integrity. :) In my case, a very rare thing. Jack --- Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's the only way we grow, right. ;-) If I tell you a mediocre image is great, you may just keep on taking mediocre images thinking they're great. I may be kind, but I'm doing you a disservice... and vice-versa of course. ;-) Tom C. From: Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:43:18 -0700 (PDT) In the future, I'll be especially eager to read your comments re my stuff. grin Jack --- ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom C wrote: If someone is sharing an image out of camaraderie it's one thing. In that case the person is likely not expecting feedback about the image, but possibly just about the subject, as when I displayed the photos of the chihuahua. It seems though that almost every image is viewed as exceptional. One must also take into consideration the experience of the one making the comments. Perceptions and the ability to view critically grow with time. Images that I once thought were very good, now present glaring deficiencies when I view them. They may have been the best I had done at the time, but in hindsight I see they were not a good as I once thought. Tom C. I think the opposite happens occasionally too one reason I never literally toss stuff I've done even if I think it is lousy work :) Now and then I find something in my archives taht I think is worth something and I chose a different negative to print... I might find myself liking the one a rejected years ago better than the one I chose as what I thought had the most promise. In terms of commenting on others here, I generally give a nod to those I enjoy but if I feel I can help by serious critquing I tend to do that off list... IF something really sucks I keep my fingers off the keyboard :) ann From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:10:48 -0600 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing In a message dated 10/15/2007 9:24:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And stop posting pictures here, because you won't get an accurate opinion about what is good from this list. William Robb === I beg to differ. Only someone who showed his own photos on list so rarely would think this. Chicken or egg, dear? When I see people who indiscriminately praise everything thats posted, whether tepid or otherwise, I tend to lose respect for the entire process. Rather than damning with faint praise, which does no good at all, perhaps it would be more honest to call spades what they are. Often, this list is little more than a circle jerk when it comes to reviewing pictures. It's a nice, warm and happy place, and I appreciate that people need that in their lives, but the best way to improve your pictures is to have it ruthlessly picked apart, and have the failings of the picture pointed out. Unfortunately, when people do that, they tend to get spat on. I don't post a lot of photos at the moment because most of my photography right now is client based for the studio I am working for, and I'm not bothering with securing permission to show the stuff. My work is selling, and making money, I don't need praise beyond that. We can agree to disagree on this one, I won't think less of you for it, and I hope you'll feel the same way. William Robb
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
On Oct 17, 2007, at 1:30 PM, Jack Davis wrote: Not possible, of course, but I'd like to have a way to guarantee that everyone should critique without having read others. ... I always look at photos posted and write down any comments that come to mind before reading other folks' responses. I might not post a response until after reading others' and then incorporate reference to something already said, of course. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Adequate evaluation (Was: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing).
The discussion in this thread came to the issues that are typical for many areas/venues that involve creativity and craftmanship. There is a huge similarity in what people want/expect and how people react to comments about results of their creative work. My summary is based on observations of people in various fields: musicians (performers, singers, composers), poets, artists, photographers, scientists, software programmers, sportsmen. 1. Most people need, and all enjoy positive reinforcement. 2. Most people have some insecurities about themselves and what they are doing. 3. Most people are incapable of adequate self-evaluation in one way or another (providing various excuses for their short-comings). 4. 2 and 3 combined lead to many people being afraid of their work being questioned or criticized, especially in public; and have very painful acceptance (or lack of acceptance) of critique in general. 5. Many people are afraid to criticize or even question others' creative work in public or at all, just to avoid potential confrontations, even where it is appropriate and requested. 6. People who have adequate evaluation of their level of mastership, clearly realizing their strengths and weaknesses, tend to accept reasonable critique very adequately and with appreciation. 1a. All people enjoy public praise of their creative work. 7. Most people do not allow possibility that 3. may be applicable to them. 8. Corollary of 1-5, and 7, most people cannot adequately evaluate the feedback provided by others. 8a. Most people do not admit possibility of 8. 8b. Most people would be offended if someone told 8 or 8a about them. 9. In fact, 7, 8, and 8a are integral parts of 3. 10. #6 leads to more effective growth of one's mastership. Igor PS. The corollary of this summary is that somebody on this list may be offended by it. So, a disclaimer is due here: none of the PDML members was referred to in this summary, and all potential similarities with anybody here are totally coincidental. :-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Geeze, you don't know what the word means? OK, here's the definition, next time look it up yourself. competent competent (kòm´pî-tent) adjective 1. Properly or sufficiently qualified; capable: a competent typist. 2. Adequate for the purpose: a competent performance. 3. Law. Legally qualified or fit to perform an act. [Middle English, adequate, from Old French, from Latin competêns, competent-, present participle of competere, to be suitable. See compete.] - com´petently adverb The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. Tom C wrote: 1. Graywolf, define competent. Competent This particular image is a work of art. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Insult away, most people here can see through that. There are degrees of competency, of which I'm sure your aware. Everybody and their brother that dabbles with a PC is a computer expert. How competent does one need to be to take a photograph? Assuming the prerequisites of a camera, a recording medium, and a power supply if it's an electronic device, one must: 1. Know to look through the viewfinder (unless they are shooting from the hip) 2. Know where the shutter release is and understand the neccesity of depressing it. I won't mention where focus is at, whether it's desired, or if montion blur is acceptable. Voila, we have a photographer. Tom C. From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:06:35 -0400 Geeze, you don't know what the word means? OK, here's the definition, next time look it up yourself. competent competent (kòm´pî-tent) adjective 1. Properly or sufficiently qualified; capable: a competent typist. 2. Adequate for the purpose: a competent performance. 3. Law. Legally qualified or fit to perform an act. [Middle English, adequate, from Old French, from Latin competêns, competent-, present participle of competere, to be suitable. See compete.] - com´petently adverb The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. Tom C wrote: 1. Graywolf, define competent. Competent This particular image is a work of art. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Tom, with all due respect, you are nuts. Most folks know when they produce a mediocre image, and eventually learn how not to if they don't want to. Note that I phrased that exactly as I meant it. I have found that most of my customers over the years wanted mediocre images, and I learned to provide them what the were willing to pay for. In fact I have come to the conclusion that except where the images are intended to be ART mediocre is better as it does not get in the way, just as plain language is better for communicating ideas than artsy prose. All of which is why my website is full of mediocre photos (and you thought it was because I did not know they were so-so. If someone does not think their images are good enough then they are not, for them, and they will work harder at it. There are few people on this list who do not care. Those who do not care are the ones who are incompetent, and they would not bother to read a photography list. In my humble opinion those kind of folks are incompetent at just about everything they do. Yes, folks can learn from those who have more knowledge and experience than them, however an open forum where giant egos love to prove how much more they know than everyone else is not a good place to do it. Now how to determine if your photo is adequate: 1-- Does it serve the purpose for which it was taken. 2-- Is it technically OK. 3-- Is it reasonably well composed. If it meets those three criteria it is competently done. Note: I did not put in any requirement that it be the best possible image taken at the best possible time in the best possible lighting; those are only requirements if you intend to be one of the greatest photographers in the world. Nothing wrong with working towards that goal if you want to. Tom C wrote: It's the only way we grow, right. ;-) If I tell you a mediocre image is great, you may just keep on taking mediocre images thinking they're great. I may be kind, but I'm doing you a disservice... and vice-versa of course. ;-) Tom C. From: Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:43:18 -0700 (PDT) In the future, I'll be especially eager to read your comments re my stuff. grin Jack --- ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom C wrote: If someone is sharing an image out of camaraderie it's one thing. In that case the person is likely not expecting feedback about the image, but possibly just about the subject, as when I displayed the photos of the chihuahua. It seems though that almost every image is viewed as exceptional. One must also take into consideration the experience of the one making the comments. Perceptions and the ability to view critically grow with time. Images that I once thought were very good, now present glaring deficiencies when I view them. They may have been the best I had done at the time, but in hindsight I see they were not a good as I once thought. Tom C. I think the opposite happens occasionally too one reason I never literally toss stuff I've done even if I think it is lousy work :) Now and then I find something in my archives taht I think is worth something and I chose a different negative to print... I might find myself liking the one a rejected years ago better than the one I chose as what I thought had the most promise. In terms of commenting on others here, I generally give a nod to those I enjoy but if I feel I can help by serious critquing I tend to do that off list... IF something really sucks I keep my fingers off the keyboard :) ann From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:10:48 -0600 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing In a message dated 10/15/2007 9:24:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And stop posting pictures here, because you won't get an accurate opinion about what is good from this list. William Robb === I beg to differ. Only someone who showed his own photos on list so rarely would think this. Chicken or egg, dear? When I see people who indiscriminately praise everything thats posted, whether tepid or otherwise, I tend to lose respect for the entire process. Rather than damning with faint praise, which does no good at all, perhaps it would be more honest to call spades what they are. Often, this list is little more than a circle jerk when it comes to reviewing pictures. It's a nice, warm and happy place, and I appreciate that people need that in their lives, but the best way to improve your pictures is to have it ruthlessly
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
There seem to be a lot who think like that on the list these days. Unfortunately, I get real upset by such attitudes because I am, in fact, much dumber than I used to be. The undiagnosed neurological disorder I am suffering from has knocked my IQ down to about 2/3's of what it used to be and I often feel like an imbecile. Oh well, I am still smarter than some (most) of those who think they are smarter than everyone else sickly grin. How are you doing these days, Marnie? -graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/17/2007 12:59:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I tell you a mediocre image is great, you may just keep on taking mediocre images thinking they're great. I may be kind, but I'm doing you a disservice... and vice-versa of course. ;-) Tom C. === Again you make the mistake of thinking we are dumb. And cannot evaluate our own feedback -- in light of who gives it and what they say. Oh, well, think what you like. It really matters little. Marnie aka Doe ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing You really think we're all stupid don't you? No, but I'm pretty sure I just got spat on. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In a message dated 10/17/2007 4:14:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There seem to be a lot who think like that on the list these days. Unfortunately, I get real upset by such attitudes because I am, in fact, much dumber than I used to be. The undiagnosed neurological disorder I am suffering from has knocked my IQ down to about 2/3's of what it used to be and I often feel like an imbecile. Oh well, I am still smarter than some (most) of those who think they are smarter than everyone else sickly grin. How are you doing these days, Marnie? -graywolf Okay, little gray cells less than they used to be, but still have more than lots too. :-) I was diagnosed with high blood pressure and have been tired this last month on water pills. EKG said heart is okay, yet to have results from blood tests. But googling I've discovered that in 80-90% of cases the causative factor for high bp is never determined. Still a bit of a way to go on this but feeling better and think working with doctor to hit on right pills and dosage that I will feel even better in a month or so. But it has been a bit of bummer, tall, and I've always had low blood pressure until now. So, heck, graywolf, it means I am getting old. Well, we knew that. Heh. Lot of us are, huh? Mom used to always say getting old (older) isn't for sissies. Later, Marnie :-) - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
I just can't agree on some of the points. No doubt about me being nuts in some ways. I think most everyone produces mediocre images, even utter failures more often than not, myself included. I think few people look objectively at their own work though. There's at least three sides to making a good, hopefully great image, if that's what one is hoping to do. 1. The first is seeing the image in the first place and capturing it. 2. The second is looking at the image that's been captured and taking steps to improve it if necessary (crop, levels, whitepoint, contrast, exposure... etc.). 3. The third is looking at the result and determining if, in the end the image is really good/great, or if it's mediocre or worse. Many times, if negative, that decision occurs as part of step two. The better one becomes at judging their own work, the fewer mediocre or poor shots will be displayed. In the case of learning and getting better, certainly non-good/great images will be shown. They should be recognized as such though. As you state, it's all contingent on the purpose of the photo though isn't it? If the image is meant to be a documentary shot of two people shaking hands over the groundbreaking for a new building, displayed in newsprint, then almost any image is satisfactory. To your last point, I agree, but ask, who is striving for adequate? Maybe some are. Adequate means the vacation shot gets included in the family album. If that's what I'm shooting for, fine, but I'm generally trying to achieve something beyond that. Tom C. From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:50:08 -0400 Tom, with all due respect, you are nuts. Most folks know when they produce a mediocre image, and eventually learn how not to if they don't want to. Note that I phrased that exactly as I meant it. I have found that most of my customers over the years wanted mediocre images, and I learned to provide them what the were willing to pay for. In fact I have come to the conclusion that except where the images are intended to be ART mediocre is better as it does not get in the way, just as plain language is better for communicating ideas than artsy prose. All of which is why my website is full of mediocre photos (and you thought it was because I did not know they were so-so. If someone does not think their images are good enough then they are not, for them, and they will work harder at it. There are few people on this list who do not care. Those who do not care are the ones who are incompetent, and they would not bother to read a photography list. In my humble opinion those kind of folks are incompetent at just about everything they do. Yes, folks can learn from those who have more knowledge and experience than them, however an open forum where giant egos love to prove how much more they know than everyone else is not a good place to do it. Now how to determine if your photo is adequate: 1-- Does it serve the purpose for which it was taken. 2-- Is it technically OK. 3-- Is it reasonably well composed. If it meets those three criteria it is competently done. Note: I did not put in any requirement that it be the best possible image taken at the best possible time in the best possible lighting; those are only requirements if you intend to be one of the greatest photographers in the world. Nothing wrong with working towards that goal if you want to. Tom C wrote: It's the only way we grow, right. ;-) If I tell you a mediocre image is great, you may just keep on taking mediocre images thinking they're great. I may be kind, but I'm doing you a disservice... and vice-versa of course. ;-) Tom C. From: Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:43:18 -0700 (PDT) In the future, I'll be especially eager to read your comments re my stuff. grin Jack --- ann sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom C wrote: If someone is sharing an image out of camaraderie it's one thing. In that case the person is likely not expecting feedback about the image, but possibly just about the subject, as when I displayed the photos of the chihuahua. It seems though that almost every image is viewed as exceptional. One must also take into consideration the experience of the one making the comments. Perceptions and the ability to view critically grow with time. Images that I once thought were very good, now present glaring deficiencies when I view them. They may have been the best I had done at the time, but in hindsight I see they were not a good as I once thought. Tom C. I think the opposite happens occasionally too
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
I've had high blood pressure for forty years. Been on meds for 25. Atacand is the best, but I take a diuretic as well. Your body gets used to them. Paul On Oct 17, 2007, at 7:26 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/17/2007 4:14:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There seem to be a lot who think like that on the list these days. Unfortunately, I get real upset by such attitudes because I am, in fact, much dumber than I used to be. The undiagnosed neurological disorder I am suffering from has knocked my IQ down to about 2/3's of what it used to be and I often feel like an imbecile. Oh well, I am still smarter than some (most) of those who think they are smarter than everyone else sickly grin. How are you doing these days, Marnie? -graywolf Okay, little gray cells less than they used to be, but still have more than lots too. :-) I was diagnosed with high blood pressure and have been tired this last month on water pills. EKG said heart is okay, yet to have results from blood tests. But googling I've discovered that in 80-90% of cases the causative factor for high bp is never determined. Still a bit of a way to go on this but feeling better and think working with doctor to hit on right pills and dosage that I will feel even better in a month or so. But it has been a bit of bummer, tall, and I've always had low blood pressure until now. So, heck, graywolf, it means I am getting old. Well, we knew that. Heh. Lot of us are, huh? Mom used to always say getting old (older) isn't for sissies. Later, Marnie :-) - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http:// www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
On Oct 17, 2007, at 4:26 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... So, heck, graywolf, it means I am getting old. Well, we knew that. Heh. Lot of us are, huh? ... I intend to follow Merlin's example, but I'm going to watch out for Morgan Le Fay and the Crystal Cave... ;-) Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
From: John Celio How do you decide what to cut and what to keep when you've shot more than one good photo of a subject? Keep the good ones. Get rid of the others. It doesn't matter if you have more than one good image of the same subject. If it's good, keep it; if it's not ... Once you get it down to that level, go through them again and use only the VERY good ones for a gallery. Sometimes, once I've decided which ones are keepers and which ones aren't, I'll put it away to come back to it later. After I've had time to reflect, maybe some of the good ones aren't quite so good as I originally thought. At that point, I get rid of them too. Eventually, I'm down to the essential images. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
No you make the mistake in putting the word dumb in my mouth. Many people can't evaluate their own images or those of others very well, because they either don't possess the objectivity or the experience critically evaluating images. Dumb or smart has nothing to do with it. Since it matters little to you, what others think, and a good ole slap on the back kudos is more pleasant to read than an honest thoughtful appraisal, I'm sure you'll continue to improve. Tom C. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:09:37 EDT In a message dated 10/17/2007 12:59:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I tell you a mediocre image is great, you may just keep on taking mediocre images thinking they're great. I may be kind, but I'm doing you a disservice... and vice-versa of course. ;-) Tom C. === Again you make the mistake of thinking we are dumb. And cannot evaluate our own feedback -- in light of who gives it and what they say. Oh, well, think what you like. It really matters little. Marnie aka Doe ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In a message dated 10/17/2007 6:04:33 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No you make the mistake in putting the word dumb in my mouth. Many people can't evaluate their own images or those of others very well, because they either don't possess the objectivity or the experience critically evaluating images. Dumb or smart has nothing to do with it. Since it matters little to you, what others think, and a good ole slap on the back kudos is more pleasant to read than an honest thoughtful appraisal, I'm sure you'll continue to improve. Tom C. = You are putting words in my mouth. My point is, you don't need to tell me what's good, Tom. You are not the only one here with an opinion on that. There are lots here with an opinion on that. And reactions are subjective. By listening to feedback good and bad from all sources that bother to comment here, I get a pretty good idea. I actually get a pretty good idea just looking at my own photos by myself. I am my own worst critic. I don't buy it that that doesn't apply to most of us here on this list. Sorry. Later, Marnie - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
- Original Message - From: Tom C Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing No you make the mistake in putting the word dumb in my mouth. Many people can't evaluate their own images or those of others very well, because they either don't possess the objectivity or the experience critically evaluating images. Dumb or smart has nothing to do with it. Since it matters little to you, what others think, and a good ole slap on the back kudos is more pleasant to read than an honest thoughtful appraisal, I'm sure you'll continue to improve. I found that to be more than a little condecending myself, since nowhere did I call anyone dumb, but as I have no right to complain without being a complete jerk.. Ijust don't see how comments such as nice colour are going to help a person improve their photography. Damning with faint praise or totally ignoring a picture may say something about what the group thinks about a picture, but isn't going to tell a person much about why the image failed. If you don't know why your pictures don't cut it, then improvement becomes one of blind luck more than skill set improvements. I wonder how one evaluates non feedback in a way that makes it meaningful. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In a message dated 10/17/2007 6:16:53 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I found that to be more than a little condescending myself, since nowhere did I call anyone dumb, but as I have no right to complain without being a complete jerk.. Ijust don't see how comments such as nice colour are going to help a person improve their photography. Damning with faint praise or totally ignoring a picture may say something about what the group thinks about a picture, but isn't going to tell a person much about why the image failed. If you don't know why your pictures don't cut it, then improvement becomes one of blind luck more than skill set improvements. I wonder how one evaluates non feedback in a way that makes it meaningful. William Robb = Condescending. That's a hoot. Maybe there is more to this whole process of showing photos and commenting than you are getting. More than just critiquing. I take exception to an attitude some seem to have that only their opinion about what is good is valid. And, frankly, that is exactly the way you come across. Very, very condescending. BTW, feel free to rip into my photos any old time you want. I can handle it. I want whatever feedback people have to offer. I'll take it context with what others say, take it with a grain of salt, and take it in stride with my own opinions about my own photos. I think I've been as blunt and as clear as I can be. Sometimes I feel I have to be really, really blunt, ergo, not polite at all, to say what I mean very, very clearly. So I hope this is clearer. Later, Marnie - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In a message dated 10/17/2007 6:26:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There's the problem with critiques folks. Some people not only dislike a critique of an image which disagrees with their opinion, they dislike opinons on critiques themselves. My point is, you don't need to tell me what's good, Tom. What's the point then of the critque? You are not the only one here with an opinion on that. Never said I was. And reactions are subjective. Critiques however should be objective. That's the point again. I am my own worst critic. I don't buy it that that doesn't apply to most of us here on this list. Show your images or the vast majority of the displayed here, somewhere else, and see how they fare. Tom C. == Because, I don't care for YOUR opinion. There are opinions I value on this list and yours is not one of them. However, also feel free to rip into my photos any time you want. Just keep it to a paragraph and don't give me a treatise. Clear? If you want to critiques that are more fulsome do them. Marnie aka Doe - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
You won't have to worry about me wasting my time then. Tom C. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:35:27 EDT In a message dated 10/17/2007 6:26:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There's the problem with critiques folks. Some people not only dislike a critique of an image which disagrees with their opinion, they dislike opinons on critiques themselves. My point is, you don't need to tell me what's good, Tom. What's the point then of the critque? You are not the only one here with an opinion on that. Never said I was. And reactions are subjective. Critiques however should be objective. That's the point again. I am my own worst critic. I don't buy it that that doesn't apply to most of us here on this list. Show your images or the vast majority of the displayed here, somewhere else, and see how they fare. Tom C. == Because, I don't care for YOUR opinion. There are opinions I value on this list and yours is not one of them. However, also feel free to rip into my photos any time you want. Just keep it to a paragraph and don't give me a treatise. Clear? If you want to critiques that are more fulsome do them. Marnie aka Doe - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
In a message dated 10/17/2007 6:43:33 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just as clear as mud. Tom C. Okay, you stupid idiot. YOU THINK YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS AN OPINION ABOUT WHAT IS GOOD. You see yourself on some high elevated plane or something. Got it? We all have an opinion. You really don't get it, do you? You go on and on ad nauseam about critiques and what is good and you think others can't make their own evaluations. Who the heck do you think you ARE??? I am perfectly willing to listen to your opinion, ALONG WITH EVERYONE ELSE. But if I like a photo (of someone else's) and you don't, then you think I am praising a bad photo. Get it? How stupid are you? Maybe I just like something you don't. Okay, folks, sorry for losing my temper but sometimes the denseness on this list is simply unbelievable. I am taking a break for a week or so. Give the list a break, too. We don't need this crap continuing. My crap contribution too, sorry. ;-) Bye, Bye, Later, Marnie - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
There's the problem with critiques folks. Some people not only dislike a critique of an image which disagrees with their opinion, they dislike opinons on critiques themselves. My point is, you don't need to tell me what's good, Tom. What's the point then of the critque? You are not the only one here with an opinion on that. Never said I was. And reactions are subjective. Critiques however should be objective. That's the point again. I am my own worst critic. I don't buy it that that doesn't apply to most of us here on this list. Show your images or the vast majority of the displayed here, somewhere else, and see how they fare. Tom C. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:12:51 EDT In a message dated 10/17/2007 6:04:33 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No you make the mistake in putting the word dumb in my mouth. Many people can't evaluate their own images or those of others very well, because they either don't possess the objectivity or the experience critically evaluating images. Dumb or smart has nothing to do with it. Since it matters little to you, what others think, and a good ole slap on the back kudos is more pleasant to read than an honest thoughtful appraisal, I'm sure you'll continue to improve. Tom C. = You are putting words in my mouth. My point is, you don't need to tell me what's good, Tom. You are not the only one here with an opinion on that. There are lots here with an opinion on that. And reactions are subjective. By listening to feedback good and bad from all sources that bother to comment here, I get a pretty good idea. I actually get a pretty good idea just looking at my own photos by myself. I am my own worst critic. I don't buy it that that doesn't apply to most of us here on this list. Sorry. Later, Marnie - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Just as clear as mud. Tom C. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:28:21 EDT In a message dated 10/17/2007 6:16:53 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I found that to be more than a little condescending myself, since nowhere did I call anyone dumb, but as I have no right to complain without being a complete jerk.. Ijust don't see how comments such as nice colour are going to help a person improve their photography. Damning with faint praise or totally ignoring a picture may say something about what the group thinks about a picture, but isn't going to tell a person much about why the image failed. If you don't know why your pictures don't cut it, then improvement becomes one of blind luck more than skill set improvements. I wonder how one evaluates non feedback in a way that makes it meaningful. William Robb = Condescending. That's a hoot. Maybe there is more to this whole process of showing photos and commenting than you are getting. More than just critiquing. I take exception to an attitude some seem to have that only their opinion about what is good is valid. And, frankly, that is exactly the way you come across. Very, very condescending. BTW, feel free to rip into my photos any old time you want. I can handle it. I want whatever feedback people have to offer. I'll take it context with what others say, take it with a grain of salt, and take it in stride with my own opinions about my own photos. I think I've been as blunt and as clear as I can be. Sometimes I feel I have to be really, really blunt, ergo, not polite at all, to say what I mean very, very clearly. So I hope this is clearer. Later, Marnie - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Tom C wrote: Critiques however should be objective. That's the point again. Personally, I disagree with that. At least, I'd much rather have subjective critiques of my photos. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
You know what I meant. :-) So if I don't care for the subject matter of the photo it's right for me to state I think it's a poor image, regardless of any other qualities it may possess? Tom C. From: Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:56:11 -0400 (EDT) Tom C wrote: Critiques however should be objective. That's the point again. Personally, I disagree with that. At least, I'd much rather have subjective critiques of my photos. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing == Because, I don't care for YOUR opinion. There are opinions I value on this list and yours is not one of them. However, also feel free to rip into my photos any time you want. Just keep it to a paragraph and don't give me a treatise. Marnie, I hesitate to tell you what I think about that paragraph, as I suspect Accesscomm wouldn't be happy with the language. You don't value the opinions of one of the obviously more accomplished photographers on this list but you want to be respected yourself? If you try really, really hard, you might some day be half the photographer Tom is on one of his off days. Sorry, if that offends, but I do look at the work that is presented here, and I do know a good picture from a crap one. Be well, and goodbye. I'm done with you. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
On 10/17/07, Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I critiqued every image displayed I'd not be very well liked. Errr..ahhh...mmm. .I'm not touching that one ;-) I get very little useful feedback from the people around me that I show my stuff to, so feel free to critique any of my shots. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing . Maybe there is more to this whole process of showing photos and commenting than you are getting. More than just critiquing. Well, I have only judged a half dozen competitions, and have only won perhaps the same number. I suppose that may make me more dangerous than knowledgable. Or, it may actually mean I know what I am talking about. It may depend on whether you like what I have to say or not. I take exception to an attitude some seem to have that only their opinion about what is good is valid. And, frankly, that is exactly the way you come across. Very, very condescending. Fer the love of Mike, Marnie, that's exactly the attitude everyone on this list takes, I just voice my opinions alittle more strongly than most. BTW, feel free to rip into my photos any old time you want. I can handle it. I want whatever feedback people have to offer. I'll take it context with what others say, take it with a grain of salt, and take it in stride with my own opinions about my own photos. No. Like you say, the PDML isn't a juried exhibition, there is no place for photocritisicm here. It should be as happy a place as you want it to be. I think I've been as blunt and as clear as I can be. Sometimes I feel I have to be really, really blunt, ergo, not polite at all, to say what I mean very, very clearly. So I hope this is clearer. Clear as glass. Regards William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Now, now children. Let's be civil. (Talk about the pot calling the kettle black:-). But Marnie and Tom are both good photographers. Tom does have one advantage. Location, location, location. Paul On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:13 PM, William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing == Because, I don't care for YOUR opinion. There are opinions I value on this list and yours is not one of them. However, also feel free to rip into my photos any time you want. Just keep it to a paragraph and don't give me a treatise. Marnie, I hesitate to tell you what I think about that paragraph, as I suspect Accesscomm wouldn't be happy with the language. You don't value the opinions of one of the obviously more accomplished photographers on this list but you want to be respected yourself? If you try really, really hard, you might some day be half the photographer Tom is on one of his off days. Sorry, if that offends, but I do look at the work that is presented here, and I do know a good picture from a crap one. Be well, and goodbye. I'm done with you. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
BTW, I set a filter up on google to nuke anything miss doe has to say, or anything that has a reply to something she has to say. She has joined some fairly impressive company If I miss anything juicy, kindly forward it to my accesscomm address. L8R bill -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Have another drink Bill. On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:30 PM, William Robb wrote: BTW, I set a filter up on google to nuke anything miss doe has to say, or anything that has a reply to something she has to say. She has joined some fairly impressive company If I miss anything juicy, kindly forward it to my accesscomm address. L8R bill -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But googling I've discovered that in 80-90% of cases the causative factor for high bp is never determined. Leeches, I say, Leeches. :-) Not as a cause, but less blood /MUST/ mean less blood pressure, right?! :-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
C wrote: I think most everyone produces mediocre images, even utter failures more often than not, myself included. I think few people look objectively at their own work though. Like so many things, competence, incompetence, mediocrity, all boil down to statistical references. Competent/incompetent/mediocre compared to what? Judged by/measured against what reference? My photos now are enough better than my photos 10 years ago that the old ones can only aspire to the current level. Does that mean they're good? Hardly. To your last point, I agree, but ask, who is striving for adequate? Adequate is also a statistical reference. Adequate in what way? Measured against what metrics? I'm pretty sure that your baseline, your metrics, are different than mine. Not criticizing, just stating fact, as I see it. I spend my life inside these sort of arguments, much to my dismay. I'm a software developer by trade, but the arguments are no less acrimonious for the supposedly fact based venue. The bottom line is, that even reportage is art, in this context. At least if you leave out the captions. :-) People get out of a photo what they get out of it. Different people get different things. It's a lot like faith. :-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I take exception to an attitude some seem to have that only their opinion about what is good is valid. Rubenstein (?sp?) comes to mind. :-) I think I've been as blunt and as clear as I can be. Sometimes I feel I have to be really, really blunt, ergo, not polite at all, to say what I mean very, very clearly. So I hope this is clearer. Geez, Marnie. Come on over. We'll give you a semester in the Surly School. You only /think/ you know what blunt really is. ;-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Mark Roberts wrote: Personally, I disagree with that. At least, I'd much rather have subjective critiques of my photos. There is /no/ such thing as an objective critique from a human. There /cannot/ be one. There are ones that make a greater effort than others to be objective, but complete objectivity is a state unknown and unknowable to humans. So, net-net, subjective critiques are all you're gonna get, Mark. :-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Mark Roberts wrote: Personally, I disagree with that. At least, I'd much rather have subjective critiques of my photos. There is /no/ such thing as an objective critique from a human. There /cannot/ be one. There are ones that make a greater effort than others to be objective, but complete objectivity is a state unknown and unknowable to humans. So, net-net, subjective critiques are all you're gonna get, Mark. :-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:57 PM, Doug Franklin wrote: The bottom line is, that even reportage is art, in this context. At least if you leave out the captions. :-) People get out of a photo what they get out of it. Different people get different things. It's a lot like faith. :-) Or a singles' bar... (or so I am told) stan -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
John Sessoms wrote: Keep the good ones. Get rid of the others. Classic! :-) Good by what measure? Acceptable on what axes? Sometimes, once I've decided which ones are keepers and which ones aren't, I'll put it away to come back to it later. After I've had time to reflect, maybe some of the good ones aren't quite so good as I originally thought. Everybody acts/sounds like they have lots of time to let a gallery selection bake ... I usually don't. So I guess I either need to acquire an editor or just say f*** it. ;-) No other way to get the objectivity in a 24-hour period that I'm aware of. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
- Original Message - From: Paul Stenquist Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Have another drink Bill. I am so sorry about that. I am inexcusably rude sometimes, and this is definitely one of those times. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
What I wrote wasn't said with pomposity. It's true. I don't want to be viewed as a critic. But I do think I have useful input and if I offer what can viewed as even negative feedback, my hope is that because of that, or in spite of it, someone learns and betters themselves. I have produced plenty of inferior work and don't hesitate to say so. I still do. I only choose to display that which is better than my usual junk. Tom C. From: David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:20:58 +0800 On 10/17/07, Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I critiqued every image displayed I'd not be very well liked. Errr..ahhh...mmm. .I'm not touching that one ;-) I get very little useful feedback from the people around me that I show my stuff to, so feel free to critique any of my shots. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
I agree generally. :-) But I don't generalize and say everything is relative. :-) Tom C. From: Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:57:20 -0400 C wrote: I think most everyone produces mediocre images, even utter failures more often than not, myself included. I think few people look objectively at their own work though. Like so many things, competence, incompetence, mediocrity, all boil down to statistical references. Competent/incompetent/mediocre compared to what? Judged by/measured against what reference? My photos now are enough better than my photos 10 years ago that the old ones can only aspire to the current level. Does that mean they're good? Hardly. To your last point, I agree, but ask, who is striving for adequate? Adequate is also a statistical reference. Adequate in what way? Measured against what metrics? I'm pretty sure that your baseline, your metrics, are different than mine. Not criticizing, just stating fact, as I see it. I spend my life inside these sort of arguments, much to my dismay. I'm a software developer by trade, but the arguments are no less acrimonious for the supposedly fact based venue. The bottom line is, that even reportage is art, in this context. At least if you leave out the captions. :-) People get out of a photo what they get out of it. Different people get different things. It's a lot like faith. :-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
I see this thread has been exciting ... unpleasantly so. On Oct 17, 2007, at 7:05 PM, Tom C wrote: So if I don't care for the subject matter of the photo it's right for me to state I think it's a poor image, regardless of any other qualities it may possess? Tom, If the subject matter of a photo is not to your liking, the most you should say is just that. Otherwise, you're acting like a pompous buffoon. Unless there is something about the photo, UNRELATED to the subject matter and whether you like it or not, that is worthy of some positive or constructive remark. And then you should make that remark and shut up. A poor image is something else entirely, not related one whit to whether you like the subject matter. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
At 01:21 PM 18/10/2007, Tom C wrote: What I wrote wasn't said with pomposity. I didn't really think it was too pompous ;-) It's true. I don't want to be viewed as a critic. Probably a wise move. Most critics (be they movie,. book, music, art etc...) don't seem to be popular unless they say nice things But I do think I have useful input and if I offer what can viewed as even negative feedback, my hope is that because of that, or in spite of it, someone learns and betters themselves. And if you ever feel so inclined with my stuff, have at it. I don't belong to any photo clubs or have any live photographically inclined friends so constructive criticism is always welcome. The usual responses I get are, Gee that's great, You should be a professional, or my personal favorite, You must have a good camera, while good for the ego, aren't very useful. I have produced plenty of inferior work and don't hesitate to say so. I still do. I only choose to display that which is better than my usual junk. Me too. And I try to only show the good stuff, but sometimes I have a lapse in judgment. Cheers, Dave From: David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:20:58 +0800 On 10/17/07, Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I critiqued every image displayed I'd not be very well liked. Errr..ahhh...mmm. .I'm not touching that one ;-) I get very little useful feedback from the people around me that I show my stuff to, so feel free to critique any of my shots. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Whenever I send pictures for a competition or so, I ask my wife or oldest daughter to edit. As they are more on a distance, there choice is a lot different from mine and I notice yields also more proze winners. Op Di, 16 oktober, 2007 03:54, schreef John Celio: How do you decide what to cut and what to keep when you've shot more than one good photo of a subject? Assuming you feel like all or most of the photos of said subject are good, how do you distance yourself from your personal attachment to your work or subject, in order to objectively edit it all down to something more manageable than (for instance) the big ol' gallery I posted over the weekend? Objectivity is the goal, I think. How do you achieve it? John (the above is all one question, phrased in different ways) -- http://www.neovenator.com http://www.cafepress.com/neovenatorphoto -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Frits Wüthrich -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
John Celio wrote: How do you decide what to cut and what to keep when you've shot more than one good photo of a subject? Well, start by admitting that objectivity in art doesn't exist and, perhaps, changing the word good to what you are personally happy with. Assuming you feel like all or most of the photos of said subject are good, how do you distance yourself from your personal attachment to your work or subject, in order to objectively edit it all down to something more manageable than (for instance) the big ol' gallery I posted over the weekend? I didn't see anything on line anywhere this past weekend (by anyone) - so can't comment on that (cause I was in a big old Scrabble tourney and had a big old house guest - I deleted without reading just about everything in my inbox so I have to skip commenting on that :) ) Objectivity is the goal, I think. How do you achieve it? John I don't think objectivity is a goal or a possibility for an artist... any artist... but getting distance from whatever you have created helps. Time is a huge factor in this Showing two photos to others/or one person ** whose work and eye you respect and admire ** and asking which they prefer and why might lead you in the right direction. You need to please yourself first, though, unless you are doing all this stuff solely for monetary gain - then your goal is to simply please your client :) Hopefully, you can support yourself by doing both . I recently (last week) asked for the opinion from the list of my fiddling in photoshop with some photos some of which I liked and didn't myself and couldn't make up my mind... the responses were all over the map, though there was a leading toward A instead of B . I had gotten too enchanted with the process and the comments were a reality check. ann (the above is all one question, phrased in different ways) -- http://www.neovenator.com http://www.cafepress.com/neovenatorphoto -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
Well, once I got rid of the technically bad stuff, it was easy. I let the customer decide. Commercial as opposed to art photography is easy that way. I have never been an art photographer, so it was normally up to someone else to make that kind of decision. The only time it happened that I had to do it was for an exhibition or my portfolio. Both of those were rather easy because the photos had been taken long enough in the past that the excitement of making them no longer affected my decision. So I guess the answer to this question is wait a while. BTW, if anyone is interested, back in the old days the rule of thumb was that if you cut more than 10% of your shots for technical reasons you needed to learn photography. In later years I found that 90% of the bad stuff was lab related rather than photographer related. Now 90% of the technically bad photos are that way because I am too lazy to fight my automatic digital camera (the one I have has a lousy manual interface, plus it loses any custom setting every time I change the batteries). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
But do you get as many poetry winners? Frits Wüthrich wrote: Whenever I send pictures for a competition or so, I ask my wife or oldest daughter to edit. As they are more on a distance, there choice is a lot different from mine and I notice yields also more proze winners. Op Di, 16 oktober, 2007 03:54, schreef John Celio: How do you decide what to cut and what to keep when you've shot more than one good photo of a subject? Assuming you feel like all or most of the photos of said subject are good, how do you distance yourself from your personal attachment to your work or subject, in order to objectively edit it all down to something more manageable than (for instance) the big ol' gallery I posted over the weekend? Objectivity is the goal, I think. How do you achieve it? John (the above is all one question, phrased in different ways) -- http://www.neovenator.com http://www.cafepress.com/neovenatorphoto -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
On Oct 15, 2007, at 6:54 PM, John Celio wrote: How do you decide what to cut and what to keep when you've shot more than one good photo of a subject? ... Thats easy. I keep everything. Dave -- Equine Photography www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ Ontario Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing
My poetry is not what is used to be :-) On Tuesday 16 October 2007 17:46, P. J. Alling wrote: But do you get as many poetry winners? Frits Wüthrich wrote: Whenever I send pictures for a competition or so, I ask my wife or oldest daughter to edit. As they are more on a distance, there choice is a lot different from mine and I notice yields also more proze winners. Op Di, 16 oktober, 2007 03:54, schreef John Celio: How do you decide what to cut and what to keep when you've shot more than one good photo of a subject? Assuming you feel like all or most of the photos of said subject are good, how do you distance yourself from your personal attachment to your work or subject, in order to objectively edit it all down to something more manageable than (for instance) the big ol' gallery I posted over the weekend? Objectivity is the goal, I think. How do you achieve it? John (the above is all one question, phrased in different ways) -- http://www.neovenator.com http://www.cafepress.com/neovenatorphoto -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- Frits Wüthrich -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
