Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
I discovered this when shooting my first night shots with my K100, and again when shooting at night with my K10. It took at least as long to 'save' the image as it took to expose it in the first place. I found I could turn the noise reduction off to save time in the field, but then had to rely on software on my iMac to do the noise reduction after the fact. Thinking back to those days (nights) in 2007-2008 I realize now just what Ralf is disappointed with in the K20 and K-7. My earlier post about the K100 and K10 not having a OFF for NR is turned around. They do have an OFF position. It's the K20 that is unclear. You can have the NR in 'Auto' or 'On' for slow shutter speeds (longer than 3/10s) AND you can have NR 'On' or 'Off' for "high- sensitivity setting". But the manual in no way explains what the "high- sensitivity setting" threshold is, not does it mention if the exposure length of 3/10s or longer will kick in NR regardless of the "high- sensitivity setting". Pentax? On Aug 1, 2009, at 15:06 , John Sessoms wrote: According to the K10 manual there's a "noise reduction" function with the bulb setting. The manual doesn't tell you much beyond that, just refers to the Custom Setting Menu. All it says there is "Sets whether to use Noise Reduction in slow speed shooting" and refers you back to the page for bulb setting. I looked at my K10D's menu and Noise Reduction is set to 2 (= NO), so I guess I must have turned it off at some point. I think I may have seen this with the *ist-D. When shooting bulb, it seemed to take a lng time to write the image to memory - the little "busy" lamp on the back of the camera would stay on after the mirror flipped back down. From: Joseph McAllister The K100, K10, and K20 (and I assume K-7) all have a special function (each a different number) to turn "Noise Reduction" 'ON', but not really off, just changing under what circumstances it is used. The K20 may be the exception, (and maybe the K-7) as it allows NR to be turned OFF when shooting "in high-sensitivity settings". But none of the manuals go into specifics except the K20, which defines 'slow speed shooting' as longer than 3/10 of a second. On Aug 1, 2009, at 09:07 , John Sessoms wrote: Joseph McAllister Lots of gear, not much time http://gallery.me.com/jomac http://web.me.com/jomac/show.me/Blog/Blog.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
According to the K10 manual there's a "noise reduction" function with the bulb setting. The manual doesn't tell you much beyond that, just refers to the Custom Setting Menu. All it says there is "Sets whether to use Noise Reduction in slow speed shooting" and refers you back to the page for bulb setting. I looked at my K10D's menu and Noise Reduction is set to 2 (= NO), so I guess I must have turned it off at some point. I think I may have seen this with the *ist-D. When shooting bulb, it seemed to take a lng time to write the image to memory - the little "busy" lamp on the back of the camera would stay on after the mirror flipped back down. From: Joseph McAllister The K100, K10, and K20 (and I assume K-7) all have a special function (each a different number) to turn "Noise Reduction" 'ON', but not really off, just changing under what circumstances it is used. The K20 may be the exception, (and maybe the K-7) as it allows NR to be turned OFF when shooting "in high-sensitivity settings". But none of the manuals go into specifics except the K20, which defines 'slow speed shooting' as longer than 3/10 of a second. On Aug 1, 2009, at 09:07 , John Sessoms wrote: > From: Miserere >> 2009/7/31 John Sessoms : >>> > From: "P. J. Alling" >> >> The camera automatically does a dark frame hot pixel noise reduction on >> long time duration images. ?The dark frame is produced right after the long >> exposure for the same amount of time to approximate the hot pixels that will >> light up from the heat build up from the sensor being continuously powered >> up. ?So what happens is the exposure takes roughly twice as long. ?1/2 of >> which is after the actual exposure is finished... >>> > >>> > The K10D didn't do that. Did the K20D? Could it be turned off if >>> it did? >> John, I have a K10D and it does do dark frame subtraction on long >> exposures. Or you can turn it off, like I did on the 4th of July to >> photograph the fireworks. >> Did you mean something else and I didn't understand you correctly? >> Please elaborate!:-) > > I've never noticed it with the K10D. But if it can be turned off, I > may perhaps have turned it off without realizing that's what it was. > > Or perhaps, I didn't notice it enough to recognize it. > > I'll have to get the manual out again. Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
I did quick trials and it seems my K10D will not do DFS in B mode at 30 seconds exposure. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Joseph McAllister wrote: > The K100, K10, and K20 (and I assume K-7) all have a special function (each > a different number) to turn "Noise Reduction" 'ON', but not really off, just > changing under what circumstances it is used. The K20 may be the exception, > (and maybe the K-7) as it allows NR to be turned OFF when shooting "in > high-sensitivity settings". But none of the manuals go into specifics except > the K20, which defines 'slow speed shooting' as longer than 3/10 of a > second. > > > On Aug 1, 2009, at 09:07 , John Sessoms wrote: > >> From: Miserere >>> >>> 2009/7/31 John Sessoms : > From: "P. J. Alling" > > >> > >> The camera automatically does a dark frame hot pixel noise reduction > >> on > >> long time duration images. ?The dark frame is produced right after > >> the long > >> exposure for the same amount of time to approximate the hot pixels > >> that will > >> light up from the heat build up from the sensor being continuously > >> powered > >> up. ?So what happens is the exposure takes roughly twice as long. > >> ?1/2 of > >> which is after the actual exposure is finished... > > The K10D didn't do that. Did the K20D? Could it be turned off if it > did? >>> >>> John, I have a K10D and it does do dark frame subtraction on long >>> exposures. Or you can turn it off, like I did on the 4th of July to >>> photograph the fireworks. >>> Did you mean something else and I didn't understand you correctly? >>> Please elaborate! :-) >> >> I've never noticed it with the K10D. But if it can be turned off, I may >> perhaps have turned it off without realizing that's what it was. >> >> Or perhaps, I didn't notice it enough to recognize it. >> >> I'll have to get the manual out again. > > Joseph McAllister > pentax...@mac.com > > "Gaudeamus igitur, juvenes dum sumus..." > http://tinyurl.com/ndmfhb > > > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- Photo: K10D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... Thinkpad: X23+UB,X60+UB Programing: D7 user (trying out D2007) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
The K100, K10, and K20 (and I assume K-7) all have a special function (each a different number) to turn "Noise Reduction" 'ON', but not really off, just changing under what circumstances it is used. The K20 may be the exception, (and maybe the K-7) as it allows NR to be turned OFF when shooting "in high-sensitivity settings". But none of the manuals go into specifics except the K20, which defines 'slow speed shooting' as longer than 3/10 of a second. On Aug 1, 2009, at 09:07 , John Sessoms wrote: From: Miserere 2009/7/31 John Sessoms : > From: "P. J. Alling" >> >> The camera automatically does a dark frame hot pixel noise reduction on >> long time duration images. ?The dark frame is produced right after the long >> exposure for the same amount of time to approximate the hot pixels that will >> light up from the heat build up from the sensor being continuously powered >> up. ?So what happens is the exposure takes roughly twice as long. ?1/2 of >> which is after the actual exposure is finished... > > The K10D didn't do that. Did the K20D? Could it be turned off if it did? John, I have a K10D and it does do dark frame subtraction on long exposures. Or you can turn it off, like I did on the 4th of July to photograph the fireworks. Did you mean something else and I didn't understand you correctly? Please elaborate! :-) I've never noticed it with the K10D. But if it can be turned off, I may perhaps have turned it off without realizing that's what it was. Or perhaps, I didn't notice it enough to recognize it. I'll have to get the manual out again. Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com "Gaudeamus igitur, juvenes dum sumus..." http://tinyurl.com/ndmfhb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
From: Miserere 2009/7/31 John Sessoms : > From: "P. J. Alling" >> >> The camera automatically does a dark frame hot pixel noise reduction on >> long time duration images. ?The dark frame is produced right after the long >> exposure for the same amount of time to approximate the hot pixels that will >> light up from the heat build up from the sensor being continuously powered >> up. ?So what happens is the exposure takes roughly twice as long. ?1/2 of >> which is after the actual exposure is finished... > > The K10D didn't do that. Did the K20D? Could it be turned off if it did? John, I have a K10D and it does do dark frame subtraction on long exposures. Or you can turn it off, like I did on the 4th of July to photograph the fireworks. Did you mean something else and I didn't understand you correctly? Please elaborate! :-) I've never noticed it with the K10D. But if it can be turned off, I may perhaps have turned it off without realizing that's what it was. Or perhaps, I didn't notice it enough to recognize it. I'll have to get the manual out again. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
The K-7 is reputed to do that. The K20, if I can believe the manual will do that either whenever the camera thinks it's appropriate or every time the exposure time is longer than 3/10 sec. my choice. I haven't tried any really long exposures yet so I can't tell you for sure how bad that is, but I'm keeping either a Ds or a D as a backup, for long exposures, and to use with my Vivitar S1 600mm. John Sessoms wrote: From: "P. J. Alling" The camera automatically does a dark frame hot pixel noise reduction on long time duration images. The dark frame is produced right after the long exposure for the same amount of time to approximate the hot pixels that will light up from the heat build up from the sensor being continuously powered up. So what happens is the exposure takes roughly twice as long. 1/2 of which is after the actual exposure is finished... The K10D didn't do that. Did the K20D? Could it be turned off if it did? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog. --G. K. Chesterton -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
2009/7/31 John Sessoms : > From: "P. J. Alling" >> >> The camera automatically does a dark frame hot pixel noise reduction on >> long time duration images. The dark frame is produced right after the long >> exposure for the same amount of time to approximate the hot pixels that will >> light up from the heat build up from the sensor being continuously powered >> up. So what happens is the exposure takes roughly twice as long. 1/2 of >> which is after the actual exposure is finished... > > The K10D didn't do that. Did the K20D? Could it be turned off if it did? John, I have a K10D and it does do dark frame subtraction on long exposures. Or you can turn it off, like I did on the 4th of July to photograph the fireworks. Did you mean something else and I didn't understand you correctly? Please elaborate! :-) --M. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.EnticingTheLight.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
From: "P. J. Alling" The camera automatically does a dark frame hot pixel noise reduction on long time duration images. The dark frame is produced right after the long exposure for the same amount of time to approximate the hot pixels that will light up from the heat build up from the sensor being continuously powered up. So what happens is the exposure takes roughly twice as long. 1/2 of which is after the actual exposure is finished... The K10D didn't do that. Did the K20D? Could it be turned off if it did? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:17:10PM +0200, Ralf R. Radermacher wrote: > David Savage wrote: > > > Frankly it's for this reason, and the lower noise (especially at > > really long exposure times) that pushed me toward the D700. > > Three guesses what I'd be doing if it weren't for all the lenses and > accessories that could only be sold and bought again for another brand > with great financial loss... I got a great deal on my bigma and dfa 50/2.8 macro from someone who was moving to fullframe Nikon. I expect that when the time comes, I'll get a D700 and just the lenses I need to use the D700 where my Pentax gear doesn't have enough huevos to do the job. Each system has it's own strengths, and my plan is to play each one to those strengths, and to have the bodies I need to take advantage of the lenses of whichever manufacturer. > > It'll be tough enough to explain to my boyfriend that - for the second* > time in a few weeks - I'll be selling the camera I've begged to buy just > days ago. :-/ > > Ralf > > *) two weeks before, I had just bought a new K20D that I've sold on in > the meantime. > > -- > Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany > Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com > Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf > Web : http://www.fotoralf.de > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- The first step is learning to take great photos, the second step is learning to throw away ones that are merely good. Larry Colen l...@red4est.comhttp://www.red4est.com/lrc -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
2009/7/30 Ralf R. Radermacher : > David Savage wrote: > > [snip] > > It'll be tough enough to explain to my boyfriend that - for the second* > time in a few weeks - I'll be selling the camera I've begged to buy just > days ago. :-/ > > Ralf Boyfriends suck. Wives aren't that great, either. Good luck! --M. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.EnticingTheLight.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
David Savage wrote: > Frankly it's for this reason, and the lower noise (especially at > really long exposure times) that pushed me toward the D700. Three guesses what I'd be doing if it weren't for all the lenses and accessories that could only be sold and bought again for another brand with great financial loss... It'll be tough enough to explain to my boyfriend that - for the second* time in a few weeks - I'll be selling the camera I've begged to buy just days ago. :-/ Ralf *) two weeks before, I had just bought a new K20D that I've sold on in the meantime. -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
2009/7/31 Ralf R. Radermacher : > Silly old me wrote: > >> No change, on the other hand, with the non-defeatable dark frame >> subtraction in B mode... > > Reports from people who've installed the new firmware suggest that > they've raised the threshold for darkframe subtraction in B mode to 30 > secs. without any mention in the docs relating to the update. > > Could someone who has installed the new firmware please check this? > > Ironically, that would be even worse as this would surely be the > definite version and I'd see no chance of Pentax ever letting us defeat > the DFS entirely. I was bitterly disappointed when I discovered that my new (at the time) K20D wouldn't let me disable noise reduction. Frankly it's for this reason, and the lower noise (especially at really long exposure times) that pushed me toward the D700. I'm now content. DS -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Silly old me wrote: > No change, on the other hand, with the non-defeatable dark frame > subtraction in B mode... Reports from people who've installed the new firmware suggest that they've raised the threshold for darkframe subtraction in B mode to 30 secs. without any mention in the docs relating to the update. Could someone who has installed the new firmware please check this? Ironically, that would be even worse as this would surely be the definite version and I'd see no chance of Pentax ever letting us defeat the DFS entirely. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 06:37:37PM +0200, Ralf R. Radermacher scripsit: > I understand that the K20D does a DFS for everything longer than 6 sec > in any mode regardless of the ISO setting which again hints at serious > trouble with this Samsung CMOS sensor. Everything is tradeoffs. Presumably better performance at fast shutter speeds is worth worse performance at very long shutter speeds, so far as the folks at Pentax are concerned. (To say nothing of regularity of supply!) -- Graydon -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
It appears the K20 with V 1.03 of the firmware slow shutter speed noise reduction gives you two options, 1. Auto, the camera decides when to apply noise reduction; 2. On, noise reduction will be applied when the shutter speed is > 3/10 second. There does seem to be no off position. Weather there is a design issue with the 14mp sensor that makes shots without dark frame subtraction unacceptable, or Pentax is just being very conservative is a matter of conjecture, as there is no way to turn it off, to test. (If you look at the way High ISO noise reduction works it kicks in even if it's been turned off if the ISO is over 3200 but noise seems to be much better controlled than with the 6mp cameras). Ralf R. Radermacher wrote: Graydon wrote: I think that policy supports my "B could be used to take a really awful picture" theory; at high ISO (= pushing the sensor) and long exposure (= heat builds up), noise is a serious issue without DFS. So somebody at Pentax has enforced DFS for B mode, because the camera doesn't know how long the exposure is going to be in B mode and can't do a calculation. Even my old K10D knows the difference between less and more than 1 sec. That's its threshold for doing a DFS in B mode. I understand that the K20D does a DFS for everything longer than 6 sec in any mode regardless of the ISO setting which again hints at serious trouble with this Samsung CMOS sensor. Ralf -- The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog. --G. K. Chesterton -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Graydon wrote: > I think that policy supports my "B could be used to take a really awful > picture" theory; at high ISO (= pushing the sensor) and long exposure (= > heat builds up), noise is a serious issue without DFS. So somebody at > Pentax has enforced DFS for B mode, because the camera doesn't know how > long the exposure is going to be in B mode and can't do a calculation. Even my old K10D knows the difference between less and more than 1 sec. That's its threshold for doing a DFS in B mode. I understand that the K20D does a DFS for everything longer than 6 sec in any mode regardless of the ISO setting which again hints at serious trouble with this Samsung CMOS sensor. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 06:05:25PM +0200, Ralf R. Radermacher scripsit: > Graydon wrote: > > Are you sure? I think I've seen auto-DFS with a 15s P mode > > exposure. There may well be auto-DFS for all exposures above n > > seconds, where n is around 12. > > Whether the camera does a DFS or not depends on time and ISO. It > doesn't at 30 sec and ISO 100 in M. It does, however, at any time and > ISO setting in B. Do you have any quantified idea what the cutoff points are? (I could figure them out for the K20D, but that's not really the issue as I understand it.) Somebody might be able to calculate the temperature of concern from that. I think that policy supports my "B could be used to take a really awful picture" theory; at high ISO (= pushing the sensor) and long exposure (= heat builds up), noise is a serious issue without DFS. So somebody at Pentax has enforced DFS for B mode, because the camera doesn't know how long the exposure is going to be in B mode and can't do a calculation. -- Graydon -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
AlunFoto wrote: > 2009/7/30 Thibouille : > > It is possible AFAIK but you have to know first how many exposure you > > will need which isn't exactly a nice solution. > > Thibs, I'm quite maths-challenged, but if you know how long you want > to keep the shutter open on the "B" setting, even I can work out how > many part-exposures you'll need. :-) This 'solution' would still be far from ideal. In my book, the B setting isn't only about long exposure times but also about long exposures you can stop at any moment if the conditions ask for it. In my night photography, this is almost as important. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
2009/7/30 Thibouille : > It is possible AFAIK but you have to know first how many exposure you > will need which isn't exactly a nice solution. Thibs, I'm quite maths-challenged, but if you know how long you want to keep the shutter open on the "B" setting, even I can work out how many part-exposures you'll need. :-) -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Graydon wrote: > Are you sure? I think I've seen auto-DFS with a 15s P mode exposure. > There may well be auto-DFS for all exposures above n seconds, where n is > around 12. Whether the camera does a DFS or not depends on time and ISO. It doesn't at 30 sec and ISO 100 in M. It does, however, at any time and ISO setting in B. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
It is possible AFAIK but you have to know first how many exposure you will need which isn't exactly a nice solution. On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:20 PM, AlunFoto wrote: > A thought just crossed my mind... > > Is it possible to use the multi-exposure to bypass DFS, or does the > camera apply DFS between each part-exposure? > > Jostein > > 2009/7/30 Ralf R. Radermacher : >> Graydon wrote: >> >>> Is there any reason to think that it is technically possible to fix this >>> issue with the current (K-7) or previous (K20D) generation 14.6 MP >>> Samsung sensors? >> >> This might be a öproblem for really long exposures. >> >> At least they could let us shoot without DFS using shorter times and >> lower sensitivities. They do in all other exposure modes. You can do 30 >> sec exposures in M without mandatory DFS. Why not in B? >> >> Ralf >> >> -- >> Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany >> Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com >> Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf >> Web : http://www.fotoralf.de >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > > > -- > http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ > http://alunfoto.blogspot.com > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- Photo: K10D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... Thinkpad: X23+UB,X60+UB Programing: D7 user (trying out D2007) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
A thought just crossed my mind... Is it possible to use the multi-exposure to bypass DFS, or does the camera apply DFS between each part-exposure? Jostein 2009/7/30 Ralf R. Radermacher : > Graydon wrote: > >> Is there any reason to think that it is technically possible to fix this >> issue with the current (K-7) or previous (K20D) generation 14.6 MP >> Samsung sensors? > > This might be a öproblem for really long exposures. > > At least they could let us shoot without DFS using shorter times and > lower sensitivities. They do in all other exposure modes. You can do 30 > sec exposures in M without mandatory DFS. Why not in B? > > Ralf > > -- > Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany > Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com > Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf > Web : http://www.fotoralf.de > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 03:42:32PM +0200, Ralf R. Radermacher scripsit: > Graydon wrote: > > Is there any reason to think that it is technically possible to fix this > > issue with the current (K-7) or previous (K20D) generation 14.6 MP > > Samsung sensors? > > This might be a problem for really long exposures. How long is a really long exposure? Just so we're both talking about the same thing. > At least they could let us shoot without DFS using shorter times and > lower sensitivities. They do in all other exposure modes. You can do 30 > sec exposures in M without mandatory DFS. Why not in B? Are you sure? I think I've seen auto-DFS with a 15s P mode exposure. There may well be auto-DFS for all exposures above n seconds, where n is around 12. M maxes out at 30s, so the same marketing team may feel that the heat management mechanisms are OK up to 30s but will risk serious failure at times much longer than that, and that publicizing such a concern would be worse, in terms of lost corporate face, than a 30s M exposure that's somewhat noisy. Since the people involved are Japanese, you won't get direct acknowledgement of any of this; the DFS is there to improve performance, period, end of sentence, full stop. It's almost impossible to get direct acknowledgement that something is a bug out of a Japanese firm. -- Graydon -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Graydon wrote: > Is there any reason to think that it is technically possible to fix this > issue with the current (K-7) or previous (K20D) generation 14.6 MP > Samsung sensors? This might be a öproblem for really long exposures. At least they could let us shoot without DFS using shorter times and lower sensitivities. They do in all other exposure modes. You can do 30 sec exposures in M without mandatory DFS. Why not in B? Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:20:22AM -0400, Desjardins, Steve scripsit: > Seriously, the more discussion we have about this the better the > chance Pentax will fix it. The number of people bothered by the long > exposure issue is going to be much smaller than the group that worries > about picking an AF sensor. With one interesting thread, however, > it's now a feature on the list of "things to be fixed for the K7". > Let's have a long exposure PUG theme some month. Is there any reason to think that it is technically possible to fix this issue with the current (K-7) or previous (K20D) generation 14.6 MP Samsung sensors? I really doubt it is possible, and that such a "fix" is actually a sensor development request for a future camera. -- Graydon -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: K-7 new firmware 1.01
See, this is how we fix the problem. Until Pentax fixes the DFS problem, all the astro guys can go and use the Hale.;-) Seriously, the more discussion we have about this the better the chance Pentax will fix it. The number of people bothered by the long exposure issue is going to be much smaller than the group that worries about picking an AF sensor. With one interesting thread, however, it's now a feature on the list of "things to be fixed for the K7". Let's have a long exposure PUG theme some month. -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Matthew Hunt Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 7:28 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01 On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 3:46 AM, John Francis wrote: > That makes the f-stop somewhere close to 3.3 by my calculation. We have a winner. That's for "prime focus", where you just have the primary mirror in the light path (plus some refractive corrective elements to improve aberrations). If you deploy the secondary mirror, you get an f/16 Cassegrain focus. Additional mirrors can be deployed to provide an f/30 Coudé focus, but that's not used much anymore. (The advantage of Coudé is that the light is brought to a focus in a nearby room, where you can build large, stationary instruments that don't have to move with the telescope. With modern technology, this is not generally necessary.) Modern observatory telescopes tend to have faster primary mirrors (e.g. Keck is f/1.75), but tend not to offer a prime focus instrument position. So, for example, at Keck the f/15 Cassegrain focus is the fastest focal ratio available. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 3:46 AM, John Francis wrote: > That makes the f-stop somewhere close to 3.3 by my calculation. We have a winner. That's for "prime focus", where you just have the primary mirror in the light path (plus some refractive corrective elements to improve aberrations). If you deploy the secondary mirror, you get an f/16 Cassegrain focus. Additional mirrors can be deployed to provide an f/30 Coudé focus, but that's not used much anymore. (The advantage of Coudé is that the light is brought to a focus in a nearby room, where you can build large, stationary instruments that don't have to move with the telescope. With modern technology, this is not generally necessary.) Modern observatory telescopes tend to have faster primary mirrors (e.g. Keck is f/1.75), but tend not to offer a prime focus instrument position. So, for example, at Keck the f/15 Cassegrain focus is the fastest focal ratio available. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Well, at a guess: Focal length (given in the quoted post) is 16.5M. Diameter of the mirror is 200", which is pretty close to 5M. That makes the f-stop somewhere close to 3.3 by my calculation. On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 10:44:11PM -0400, Desjardins, Steve wrote: > 16500? The obvious question: What's the max aperture in f stops? These > will be my fun facts for the day ;-) > > I wondered about the bokeh being donuts, but I like the idea of using the > "donuts of confusion" to focus the telescope. > > From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Matthew Hunt > [...@pobox.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:28 PM > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01 > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Desjardins, Steve wrote: > > > OK, but I bet the bokeh sucks on the Hale. > > Yes, it's definitely "donut" bokeh, complete with obstructions from > the secondary supports. Furthermore, given its age, the mirror figure > is maintained by a mechanical system of springs and sliding weights > that "tug" it into the correct figure as it points in different > directions. When I was there, these contraptions had a tendency to > bind up, distorting the figure and making the "bokeh" asymmetric and > splotchy. Mike Johnston would not have approved. > > Fortunately, even with the 16,500-mm focal length, all of our subjects > were "at infinity". The only time we had to see the "bokeh" was when > the telescope was badly out of focus, such as at the beginning of a > run when it had just been installed. Then the focal plane might be a > whole millimeter or two out of position! We would point to a bright > star, measure the diameter of the "donut" image, and calculate from > that how far to move the focus. > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: K-7 new firmware 1.01
16500? The obvious question: What's the max aperture in f stops? These will be my fun facts for the day ;-) I wondered about the bokeh being donuts, but I like the idea of using the "donuts of confusion" to focus the telescope. From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Matthew Hunt [...@pobox.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:28 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01 On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Desjardins, Steve wrote: > OK, but I bet the bokeh sucks on the Hale. Yes, it's definitely "donut" bokeh, complete with obstructions from the secondary supports. Furthermore, given its age, the mirror figure is maintained by a mechanical system of springs and sliding weights that "tug" it into the correct figure as it points in different directions. When I was there, these contraptions had a tendency to bind up, distorting the figure and making the "bokeh" asymmetric and splotchy. Mike Johnston would not have approved. Fortunately, even with the 16,500-mm focal length, all of our subjects were "at infinity". The only time we had to see the "bokeh" was when the telescope was badly out of focus, such as at the beginning of a run when it had just been installed. Then the focal plane might be a whole millimeter or two out of position! We would point to a bright star, measure the diameter of the "donut" image, and calculate from that how far to move the focus. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Matthew Hunt wrote: I find their lack of cryogens... disturbing. Don't we all, brother, don't we all. :-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 04:57:19PM -0400, Matthew Hunt scripsit: > I do, however, admit to minimal experience concerning night > photography with DSLRs. I find their lack of cryogens... disturbing. Mark! -- Graydon -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Desjardins, Steve wrote: > OK, but I bet the bokeh sucks on the Hale. Yes, it's definitely "donut" bokeh, complete with obstructions from the secondary supports. Furthermore, given its age, the mirror figure is maintained by a mechanical system of springs and sliding weights that "tug" it into the correct figure as it points in different directions. When I was there, these contraptions had a tendency to bind up, distorting the figure and making the "bokeh" asymmetric and splotchy. Mike Johnston would not have approved. Fortunately, even with the 16,500-mm focal length, all of our subjects were "at infinity". The only time we had to see the "bokeh" was when the telescope was badly out of focus, such as at the beginning of a run when it had just been installed. Then the focal plane might be a whole millimeter or two out of position! We would point to a bright star, measure the diameter of the "donut" image, and calculate from that how far to move the focus. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
William Robb wrote: > >As an aside, can a person do DFS after the fact by running a long exposure >with the cap on and then inverting it and dropping it onto a long exposure >picture? Possibly. But I expect DFS is accomplished more effectively if it's done before de-mosaicing of the Bayer pattern. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
OK, but I bet the bokeh sucks on the Hale. Steve Desjardins On Jul 29, 2009, at 5:05 PM, "Matthew Hunt" wrote: > 2009/7/29 Ralf R. Radermacher : > >> I understand the astro people do something like this. Unfortunately >> there aren't any around, for obvious reasons. > > Just for the record, I do have a Ph.D. in astrophysics, with > experience characterizing the performance of a then-new 48 megapixel > mosaic CCD camera for the 200-inch Hale Telescope at Palomar > Observatory, and adapting an image-processing pipeline for images from > that instrument. > > I do, however, admit to minimal experience concerning night > photography with DSLRs. I find their lack of cryogens... disturbing. > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above > and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Matthew Hunt wrote: > Just for the record, I do have a Ph.D. in astrophysics, with > experience characterizing the performance of a then-new 48 megapixel > mosaic CCD camera for the 200-inch Hale Telescope at Palomar > Observatory, and adapting an image-processing pipeline for images from > that instrument. Well, I'm suitably impressed. :-) Go into any forum on the Dark Side and in related galaxies and you'll find a bunch of amateur astro photographers there. None around here, for obvious reasons. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
2009/7/29 Ralf R. Radermacher : > I understand the astro people do something like this. Unfortunately > there aren't any around, for obvious reasons. Just for the record, I do have a Ph.D. in astrophysics, with experience characterizing the performance of a then-new 48 megapixel mosaic CCD camera for the 200-inch Hale Telescope at Palomar Observatory, and adapting an image-processing pipeline for images from that instrument. I do, however, admit to minimal experience concerning night photography with DSLRs. I find their lack of cryogens... disturbing. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Doug Brewer wrote: > I don't do much nightscape photography, but I'd be interested in your > impressions from doing so with the different cameras... My K10D has just returned from a longer stay with the freshly outsourced German Pentax service and I'm planning to do just that next weekend, weather and work permitting. I had hoped the K10D would return before there'd be someone wanting to buy the K20Dso I could include it in the comparison but unfortunately it wasn't to be. The K20D is gone and it'll just be the K10D and the K-7. Stay tuned. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
William Robb wrote: > As an aside, can a person do DFS after the fact by running a long exposure > with the cap on and then inverting it and dropping it onto a long exposure > picture? I understand the astro people do something like this. Unfortunately there aren't any around, for obvious reasons. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 04:35:59PM -0400, Matthew Hunt scripsit: > This is standard practice in astrophotography. It gives both better > results (from a signal-to-noise perspective), and wastes less time, > than the in-camera subtraction of a single dark frame. That's what's > so horrible about Pentax's decision. Pentax's decision is almost certainly being made to prevent someone from taking a no-dark-frame 30s exposure of something warm and posting the resulting mess on the web somewhere. They're probably still a bit twitchy after all the stick they got over the default JPEG settings. -- Graydon -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 02:21:21PM -0600, William Robb scripsit: > As an aside, can a person do DFS after the fact by running a long > exposure with the cap on and then inverting it and dropping it onto a > long exposure picture? You could, but the likelihood of the dark frame matching the thermal conditions of the shot are worse than if the dark frame is made and subtracted immediately after the shot is taken. -- Graydon -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 4:21 PM, William Robb wrote: > As an aside, can a person do DFS after the fact by running a long exposure > with the cap on and then inverting it and dropping it onto a long exposure > picture? Yes, more or less. I'm not sure about the "inverting it and dropping it" bit... you want to be subtracting the raw counts from the sensor. I'm not sure how well you can do something like that in Photoshop or other general-audience tools. Better yet, you take multiple dark exposures (under identical conditions as your "real" images) and average them before subtracting. This is standard practice in astrophotography. It gives both better results (from a signal-to-noise perspective), and wastes less time, than the in-camera subtraction of a single dark frame. That's what's so horrible about Pentax's decision. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
- Original Message - From: "Ralf R. Radermacher" Subject: Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01 http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/66277-k7-long- exposures.html As usual, the astro- and nightscape shooters who pointed this out were treated as a bunch of odd freaks complaining about problems noone else has and the discussions quickly petered out. Ermmm well, PentaxForums for the most part is a Pop-Poms on the sidelines style of cheering section. I've been pilloried a number of times for voicing my opinion about AF speed and camera responsiveness. At the same time, the DFS thing is something that will affect a very small number of users. It would be nice to be able to turn it off though. As an aside, can a person do DFS after the fact by running a long exposure with the cap on and then inverting it and dropping it onto a long exposure picture? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Ralf R. Radermacher wrote: Desjardins, Steve wrote: Honestly, I had heard all sorts of complaints about the focus point but this was the first I've heard of the DFS. I discovered too late (i.e. after I bought my K-7) that this had been discussed in a number of forums, e.g.: http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/66277-k7-long- exposures.html As usual, the astro- and nightscape shooters who pointed this out were treated as a bunch of odd freaks complaining about problems noone else has and the discussions quickly petered out. Ralf I don't do much nightscape photography, but I'd be interested in your impressions from doing so with the different cameras because, you know, you are the man when it comes to these things. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 09:48:14PM +0200, Ralf R. Radermacher scripsit: > Graydon wrote: > > I strongly suspect that long exposures are junk without it. > > My suspicion as well. Could it be that this Samsung sensor is so rotten > that they just can't afford to let us see the terrible unmasked truth? Everything is trade-offs. Can't speak to the K-7 version, but the K20D version strikes me as an excellent sensor for the more usual -- under 10s, say -- range of exposures, and it has a number of virtues . > I mean, it would fit in nicely with the general noise problems they seem > to be having ever since they turned away from using Sony CCD sensors. Are there, though? Noise seems very well controlled in short exposures; it's that the CMOS architecture is sensitive to heat, which is a problem for long exposures. (Thermal management in IC design is something of a black art, even now; I suspect there's a very nasty tradeoff between short exposure responsiveness and long exposure stability built into the thermal design.) I'd generally expect that the CMOS sensor architectures are superior to the CCD ones in terms of potential sensitivity. It may be that this potential won't be fully realized until someone figures out how to integrate a Peltier cooler with the in-body anti-shake, but as a long term architecture choice I think it's entirely defensible. It just happens to suck for astro. -- Graydon -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Graydon wrote: > I strongly suspect that long exposures are junk without it. My suspicion as well. Could it be that this Samsung sensor is so rotten that they just can't afford to let us see the terrible unmasked truth? I mean, it would fit in nicely with the general noise problems they seem to be having ever since they turned away from using Sony CCD sensors. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Desjardins, Steve wrote: > Honestly, I had heard all sorts of complaints about the > focus point but this was the first I've heard of the DFS. I discovered too late (i.e. after I bought my K-7) that this had been discussed in a number of forums, e.g.: http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/66277-k7-long- exposures.html As usual, the astro- and nightscape shooters who pointed this out were treated as a bunch of odd freaks complaining about problems noone else has and the discussions quickly petered out. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 09:33:43PM +0200, Ralf R. Radermacher scripsit: > Fernando wrote: > > Before buying a K20D I knew about this; and that's how I justified to > > myself keeping the K10D... > > I didn't know this before I bought the K-7 and I must say it had never > occurred to me that someone might come up with something *that* idiotic. I strongly suspect that long exposures are junk without it. -- Graydon -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Fernando wrote: > Before buying a K20D I knew about this; and that's how I justified to > myself keeping the K10D... I didn't know this before I bought the K-7 and I must say it had never occurred to me that someone might come up with something *that* idiotic. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: K-7 new firmware 1.01
That's actually a pretty quick response for Pentax. I bet they had a lot of complaints about the Focus point selection priorities. Now we should all complain about the dark frame subtraction until they fix that. Honestly, I had heard all sorts of complaints about the focus point but this was the first I've heard of the DFS. -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Michel Carrère-Gée Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 2:09 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: K-7 new firmware 1.01 Here http://www.pentax.jp/english/support/digital/k-7_s.html /" Changes to V1.01 * Added [Operate at AF point "SEL"] on [Custom] menu and it can be selected either [1 Calling Function Preference] or [2 Select AF point Preference]. When selected [2 Select AF point Preference] and AF point switching dial is set at [SEL], selection of AF point can be operated priority by the four-way controller. How to operate additional function, Click Here. * Improved stability for general performance For example: when left- end focus point is selected, function of auto focus may rarely become unstable in particular shooting condition. "/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Before buying a K20D I knew about this; and that's how I justified to myself keeping the K10D... 2009/7/29 Ralf R. Radermacher : > Miserere wrote: > >> If I purchase the K-7 I'll have to keep the K10D as my fireworks >> camera. Maybe I'll call her my "4th of July Camera"... > > Same here. I was just cutting down on the number of cameras I'm hauling > around all the time. > > Ralf > > -- > Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany > Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com > Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf > Web : http://www.fotoralf.de > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/ferand/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
The camera automatically does a dark frame hot pixel noise reduction on long time duration images. The dark frame is produced right after the long exposure for the same amount of time to approximate the hot pixels that will light up from the heat build up from the sensor being continuously powered up. So what happens is the exposure takes roughly twice as long. 1/2 of which is after the actual exposure is finished... David J Brooks wrote: 2009/7/29 Ralf R. Radermacher : Dario Bonazza wrote: The AF point selection madness has been fixed as expected. No change, on the other hand, with the non-defeatable dark frame subtraction in B mode and no change either for this nonsense with the illumination of the upper display. Not sure i know what this dark frame thing you mention is. Can some one elaborate for me.?? Dave I'm sorry to say the K-7 ist still ununsable for fireworks and thunderstorms and severely handicapped for night photography of any kind. Astrophotographers will have to llook elsewhere. Knowing the frequency of Pentax' firmware updates this means at least half a year, probably more, with no change in sight. I've given myself 24 hours to decide if I'll keep mine or not. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog. --G. K. Chesterton -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
2009/7/29 Ralf R. Radermacher : > I was just cutting down on the number of cameras I'm hauling > around all the time. Mark! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Miserere wrote: > If I purchase the K-7 I'll have to keep the K10D as my fireworks > camera. Maybe I'll call her my "4th of July Camera"... Same here. I was just cutting down on the number of cameras I'm hauling around all the time. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
No option to turn off the DFS? How...idiotic! If I purchase the K-7 I'll have to keep the K10D as my fireworks camera. Maybe I'll call her my "4th of July Camera"... --M. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.EnticingTheLight.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 2009/7/29 Desjardins, Steve : > I was wondering about that as well. That would be a disaster for stars shots > (no pun intended). > > -Original Message- > From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Bruce > Walker > Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 9:14 AM > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01 > > David J Brooks wrote: >> 2009/7/29 Ralf R. Radermacher : >>> Dario Bonazza wrote: >>> >>>> The AF point selection madness has been fixed as expected. >>> No change, on the other hand, with the non-defeatable dark frame >>> subtraction in B mode and no change either for this nonsense with the >>> illumination of the upper display. >> >> Not sure i know what this dark frame thing you mention is. >> >> Can some one elaborate for me.?? >> >> Dave > > This, I expect ... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_frame_subtraction > > -bmw > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: K-7 new firmware 1.01
I was wondering about that as well. That would be a disaster for stars shots (no pun intended). -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Bruce Walker Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 9:14 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01 David J Brooks wrote: > 2009/7/29 Ralf R. Radermacher : >> Dario Bonazza wrote: >> >>> The AF point selection madness has been fixed as expected. >> No change, on the other hand, with the non-defeatable dark frame >> subtraction in B mode and no change either for this nonsense with the >> illumination of the upper display. > > Not sure i know what this dark frame thing you mention is. > > Can some one elaborate for me.?? > > Dave This, I expect ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_frame_subtraction -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
David J Brooks wrote: 2009/7/29 Ralf R. Radermacher : Dario Bonazza wrote: The AF point selection madness has been fixed as expected. No change, on the other hand, with the non-defeatable dark frame subtraction in B mode and no change either for this nonsense with the illumination of the upper display. Not sure i know what this dark frame thing you mention is. Can some one elaborate for me.?? Dave This, I expect ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_frame_subtraction -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
2009/7/29 Ralf R. Radermacher : > Dario Bonazza wrote: > >> The AF point selection madness has been fixed as expected. > > No change, on the other hand, with the non-defeatable dark frame > subtraction in B mode and no change either for this nonsense with the > illumination of the upper display. Not sure i know what this dark frame thing you mention is. Can some one elaborate for me.?? Dave > > I'm sorry to say the K-7 ist still ununsable for fireworks > and thunderstorms and severely handicapped for night photography of any > kind. Astrophotographers will have to llook elsewhere. > > Knowing the frequency of Pentax' firmware updates this means at least > half a year, probably more, with no change in sight. I've given myself > 24 hours to decide if I'll keep mine or not. > > Ralf > > -- > Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany > Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com > Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf > Web : http://www.fotoralf.de > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Bruce Walker wrote: > Is this a change from the K20D? I don't know. But it's one from the K10D and all other Pentax models with CCD sensors. Go figure. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
paul stenquist wrote: > I understand how this could be a problem for astrophotography, but do > you really need B mode for fireworks or thunderstorms? Yes, absolutely. Because it's the only mode where you can expose as long as you like and also stop the exposure at any moment. Both are key functions under such circumstances. The same goes for HDR sequences where the longest exposure is over 30 secs. Non-defeatable DFS is a major PITA in any case. Just imagine you want to expose for, say, 2 minutes and after 1 minute 30 seconds a car with full headlights drives through the scene. So, you stop and have to wait for an additional minute and a half untll you can repeat the shot. All this could have been corrected with just a few bytes. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Ralf R. Radermacher wrote: Dario Bonazza wrote: The AF point selection madness has been fixed as expected. No change, on the other hand, with the non-defeatable dark frame subtraction in B mode Is this a change from the K20D? and no change either for this nonsense with the illumination of the upper display. I'm sorry to say the K-7 ist still ununsable for fireworks and thunderstorms and severely handicapped for night photography of any kind. Astrophotographers will have to llook elsewhere. Knowing the frequency of Pentax' firmware updates this means at least half a year, probably more, with no change in sight. I've given myself 24 hours to decide if I'll keep mine or not. Ralf Heh. You may even *make* money if you sell. Seems to be quite a buzz around the K-7. :-) -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Ralf R. Radermacher wrote: Dario Bonazza wrote: The AF point selection madness has been fixed as expected. No change, on the other hand, with the non-defeatable dark frame subtraction in B mode Is this a change from the K20D? and no change either for this nonsense with the illumination of the upper display. I'm sorry to say the K-7 ist still ununsable for fireworks and thunderstorms and severely handicapped for night photography of any kind. Astrophotographers will have to llook elsewhere. Knowing the frequency of Pentax' firmware updates this means at least half a year, probably more, with no change in sight. I've given myself 24 hours to decide if I'll keep mine or not. Ralf Heh. You may even *make* money if you sell. Seems to be quite a buzz around the K-7. :-) -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
I understand how this could be a problem for astrophotography, but do you really need B mode for fireworks or thunderstorms? Paul On Jul 29, 2009, at 6:04 AM, Ralf R. Radermacher wrote: Dario Bonazza wrote: The AF point selection madness has been fixed as expected. No change, on the other hand, with the non-defeatable dark frame subtraction in B mode and no change either for this nonsense with the illumination of the upper display. I'm sorry to say the K-7 ist still ununsable for fireworks and thunderstorms and severely handicapped for night photography of any kind. Astrophotographers will have to llook elsewhere. Knowing the frequency of Pentax' firmware updates this means at least half a year, probably more, with no change in sight. I've given myself 24 hours to decide if I'll keep mine or not. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Excellent. I never did get used to the weirdness of losing control, and once changed my white balance inadvertently while trying to restore control of autofocus select. Paul On Jul 29, 2009, at 2:26 AM, Dario Bonazza wrote: Michel Carrère-Gée wrote: Here http://www.pentax.jp/english/support/digital/k-7_s.html /" Changes to V1.01 * Added [Operate at AF point “SEL”] on [Custom] menu and it can be selected either [1 Calling Function Preference] or [2 Select AF point Preference]. When selected [2 Select AF point Preference] and AF point switching dial is set at [SEL], selection of AF point can be operated priority by the four-way controller. The AF point selection madness has been fixed as expected. Thanks Michel. Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Dario Bonazza wrote: > The AF point selection madness has been fixed as expected. No change, on the other hand, with the non-defeatable dark frame subtraction in B mode and no change either for this nonsense with the illumination of the upper display. I'm sorry to say the K-7 ist still ununsable for fireworks and thunderstorms and severely handicapped for night photography of any kind. Astrophotographers will have to llook elsewhere. Knowing the frequency of Pentax' firmware updates this means at least half a year, probably more, with no change in sight. I've given myself 24 hours to decide if I'll keep mine or not. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K-7 new firmware 1.01
Michel Carrère-Gée wrote: Here http://www.pentax.jp/english/support/digital/k-7_s.html /" Changes to V1.01 * Added [Operate at AF point “SEL”] on [Custom] menu and it can be selected either [1 Calling Function Preference] or [2 Select AF point Preference]. When selected [2 Select AF point Preference] and AF point switching dial is set at [SEL], selection of AF point can be operated priority by the four-way controller. The AF point selection madness has been fixed as expected. Thanks Michel. Dario -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
K-7 new firmware 1.01
Here http://www.pentax.jp/english/support/digital/k-7_s.html /" Changes to V1.01 * Added [Operate at AF point “SEL”] on [Custom] menu and it can be selected either [1 Calling Function Preference] or [2 Select AF point Preference]. When selected [2 Select AF point Preference] and AF point switching dial is set at [SEL], selection of AF point can be operated priority by the four-way controller. How to operate additional function, Click Here. * Improved stability for general performance For example: when left- end focus point is selected, function of auto focus may rarely become unstable in particular shooting condition. "/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
