Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
On Feb 29, 2004, at 07:22, Cotty wrote: On my PC's if I have a hardware problem, normally the part can be replaced and back up and running the same day.(No, I haven't had the time to properly research this yet!) If it was justifiable and needed, I would work towards obtaining a G5 10.3 OS(Panther) system. I could build more then a couple awesome PC's though for the amount of cash I would need to outlay to do this. As others have already said, Macs do use a number of standard PC parts nowadays. Apple's website has all the details you need there. Just note that the PCI slots on the lower-end G5s are 3.3V: 5V cards won't fit (as I found out when I tried transplanting my PC's SCSI card across). Is it like Linux where different drives or partitions simply have different directory names? I don't know if it is like Linux. Each hard drive can be called anything it likes. I have two hard drives in my Blue and White G3, one with two partitions. The latter is called Minnie and Duki, and the other drive is called PS Scratch. Minnie has 10.3 on, and Duki has 9.1 on. FYI Mac OS X is heavily based on... one of the BSD variants, I think. So it therefore has similarities to Linux, under the hood. On Unix-like OSes, you can mount a partition anywhere you like within your filesystem. To the user there is no distinction between physical hardware devices: it's all just one big directory structure. This can be extremely powerful from an administrative point of view, and is something I've taken advantage of in the past when I had a multitude of smallish drives in my server. By default, Mac OS X is a little unusual in that it approaches the situation in both ways at once. The filesystem, being Unix-ish, just mounts the partition under /Volumes, but the desktop shows a separate icon. The mount point is given the volume name you gave the partition (so in my case it's /Volumes/Photo/). But as a user I don't see any of that: the desktop just shows me another icon - so it's closer to Windows (or earlier Mac OS versions) in that respect. Cheers, - Dave http://www.digistar.com/~dmann/
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
On Feb 28, 2004, at 10:44, Bob W wrote: I don't hold much of a brief for Microsoft (or for Apple, come to that), but Microsoft appears to take more of the 'Pentax' approach (see - it is possible to stay on topic!) - they support their existing users to a greater extent, perhaps, than Apple do. Apple seem to have been more willing to throw everything out and start again. I'm going to leap to Apple's defence here, although in principle I think you're right. Soon after buying my Mac I ordered Mac OS X: The Missing Manual (Panther Edition) by David Pogue. Going by what he wrote about the inner workings of OS 9, Apple didn't have any choice but to ditch everything and start over. The multitasking was bad, memory management was a joke, and stability was becoming a problem. OS 9 certainly was not an operating system to take Apple into the future. It was a pretty big decision for them to move to OS X but I believe that its already paying off. I see it as Apple doing what Canon did: dropping their existing system for something which could give them a serious competitive advantage. Look at Canon's position in the market both then and now, compared to Pentax. Regarding the book, I'm only halfway through it but its very informative and excellently written. Highly recommended. Cheers, - Dave http://www.digistar.com/~dmann/
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
On Feb 28, 2004, at 03:36, Cotty wrote: Else, how do you explain people like Dave Mann, who has been using PCs for years, and decided to buy a Mac? If he thought it was 'lesser', then why do you think he made the move? Maybe he likes just staring at pretty lights? ;-) Hmm, my PC has four lights, the Mac has one. The network switch has 25 but only 10 are lit right now... and none of them are particularly pretty :) I wrote rather a long post in response to this thread which detailed the reasons why I bought a Mac instead of going to Windows XP or a Linux-based distribution, but I deleted it after realising that I don't need to justify my decision to anyone. I made an informed choice based on my own taste and experience. Why should that matter to anyone else, even if I am being ignorant? I'm happy with it and that's what matters to me. If you like Macs, I don't care. If you don't like Macs, I still don't care. I'm being blunt here but I've seen enough passionately opinionated flame wars to realise that taking up a crusade is a complete waste of time. I do still have my PC due to a few small issues with both of my scanners. HP's fault in one case, and Apple's in the other. Oh, and all of my games are on the PC ;) Cheers, - Dave http://www.digistar.com/~dmann/
OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
I appreciate all the ideas and advice that have come back on this list regarding this subject. However I never meant for this thread to go into which system was truly better then the other or lead to a flame war, since that's something that will never be agreed upon. I also apologize to those that feel that this thread should not be on this list. I felt it was valid since my primary concern regarding Mac was for graphic and image editing purposes and if it makes you happier I do use images created in my Pentax and Minolta cameras for backgrounds. So far I've not heard anything that gives me the impression that one system is really better then the other. Windows went through a lot of growing pains, but upon the release of windows 2000 (which is what I run most of the time since XP wastes too many resources for my taste) and XP things really started looking up. During that previous time, Mac may well have had a superior more, stable system. As I never ran them at during that period, I can't say for sure. I'm sure I can learn to operate a Mac properly with a little time. In class we have very little time to do our assignments, thus most of my work is done at home on PC. I could drive down to the college and use their systems, but the available time in my lifestyle puts a crimp on this and I truly question the validity of learning OS 9x. I doubt that running a Mac is harder then running Linux, which I also do when I get bored or upset with Microsoft. I am trying to keep an open mind even though part of me rebels hugely, especially over the missing right click. The important concerns here for me are do I need to be competent on a Mac to be competent in the industry? (Yes, I probably do) Which system will give me a more productive workflow specifically working with graphics applications? I build my own PC's, can I do the same effectively with a Mac? When a component gives me a problem, can I simply buy one to replace it myself, or am I at the mercy of repair service at Mac, their schedule and their parts prices? On my PC's if I have a hardware problem, normally the part can be replaced and back up and running the same day.(No, I haven't had the time to properly research this yet!) If it was justifiable and needed, I would work towards obtaining a G5 10.3 OS(Panther) system. I could build more then a couple awesome PC's though for the amount of cash I would need to outlay to do this. I always run at least 2 physical hard drives (not just partitions) for backup safety's sake. Since the drives are not named C etc, does Mac support this? Is it like Linux where different drives or partitions simply have different directory names? On PC I can completely lose my OS and reformat if necessary without losing any data (throw back to win 98, hasn't been an issue since Win 2K, however a drive can still fail), can I do this on a Mac per the 2nd hard drive? Note: PC's with factory restore disks are a total waste of time as well for data salvaging on partitions. In regard to the saving of files in Freehand 10 as .eps that some of you find totally laughable. First of all, we are running Mac OS 9.2 at the college with the Freehand 10 version, not Freehand 9 or Freehand MX(11). Secondly, I don't think I made the problem totally clear as per the responses. What I'm referring to is when you have a group of objects either all selected, or grouped and the single group selected. Now what I want to do is, save that group or object separately from the rest of the page or document as an .eps editable image file. I don't want to save the entire page or document, only one graphic that retains full vector graphic properties. Thus it can be imported separately into another page or document and reduced or enlarged, ungrouped and edited in any way that I desire and still retain all the excellent printing properties of an enlarged vector graphic. If you enlarge and print a graphic that is not a true vector graphic it loses considerable quality. On PC I can do this, on the Mac's at school it always saves the entire page or saves the object in a format that is no longer editable. Yes, the page or document is editable, but is a larger file size and requires a couple more steps for me to accomplish my goal. According to my instructor, this is an issue that is about time and money in a working studio environment, not whether or not you can get to the same place or not on a Mac. Is my instructor competent? Well, that does seem questionable at the moment, however she is quite charming and good looking too... :), not to mention she does run and operate a successful graphics studio with some quite major accounts. In some of the documentation links that have been suggested, it talks about repairing the machine that has problems saving as an editable file, however from what I can discern, they are still talking about an entire page or document, not a single graphic. Most of this documentation seems to be targeted at
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
On 28/2/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: David Miers: I build my own PC's, can I do the same effectively with a Mac? Anders Hultman I suppose you could, but Macs seldom are sold in parts like PCs often are. I.e while you can buy an assembled PC *or* all the parts and assemble yourself, I don't think that case, motherboard etc for a Mac can be bought separately... Cotty: Yes they can. There are plenty of places in the USA, too many to list. Do a Google. Here in the UK: http://www.applemacparts.com amongst others. I buy parts off eBay frequently. A while back I purchased a new motherboard of an eBay seller in the US and installed it in a dead iMac that was given to him. My son now has a working 400Mhx OS X computer for $100. He can hook up his MIDI keyboard to it with no extra software required. I don't know much about electronics. I'm just very good at following instructions :-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads http://www.macads.co.uk
OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
On 28/2/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: The important concerns here for me are do I need to be competent on a Mac to be competent in the industry? What industry? Which system will give me a more productive workflow specifically working with graphics applications? Unknown. Only you can decide that after trying both. I build my own PC's, can I do the same effectively with a Mac? Yes. When a component gives me a problem, can I simply buy one to replace it myself, or am I at the mercy of repair service at Mac, their schedule and their parts prices? If you buy new, you would expect repair or replacement under warranty, no? If the computer is outside warranty period, then yes, plenty of places will sell spares. A lot of the hardware inside a Mac is identical to that inside a PC. Surprised? On my PC's if I have a hardware problem, normally the part can be replaced and back up and running the same day.(No, I haven't had the time to properly research this yet!) If it was justifiable and needed, I would work towards obtaining a G5 10.3 OS(Panther) system. I could build more then a couple awesome PC's though for the amount of cash I would need to outlay to do this. I always run at least 2 physical hard drives (not just partitions) for backup safety's sake. Since the drives are not named C etc, does Mac support this? Yes. I run multiple drives. Is it like Linux where different drives or partitions simply have different directory names? I don't know if it is like Linux. Each hard drive can be called anything it likes. I have two hard drives in my Blue and White G3, one with two partitions. The latter is called Minnie and Duki, and the other drive is called PS Scratch. Minnie has 10.3 on, and Duki has 9.1 on. On PC I can completely lose my OS and reformat if necessary without losing any data (throw back to win 98, hasn't been an issue since Win 2K, however a drive can still fail), can I do this on a Mac per the 2nd hard drive? Yes. HTH Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads http://www.macads.co.uk
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
Minnie and Duki? We won't even ask where these come from... Norm ;-) Cotty wrote: The latter is called Minnie and Duki, and the other drive is called PS Scratch. Minnie has 10.3 on, and Duki has 9.1 on.
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
On 28 Feb 2004 at 8:16, David Miers wrote: The important concerns here for me are do I need to be competent on a Mac to be competent in the industry? (Yes, I probably do) No that's pure BS. All the major printed publications in Oz have been PC based for over 15 years. Only little self obsessed design houses wouldn't offer you your platform of your choice. Which system will give me a more productive workflow specifically working with graphics applications? You need to know how to effectively manage colour and the major image editing and other graphic orientated applications on either platform, no more. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
I work for an advertising agency with close to 3000 employees, including approximately 700 designers, art directors, and writers. While the other 2300 employees use PCs, all creatives use Macs. You don't get a choice, because we have to be transparently interconnected within the creative department. The decision to go with Macs was based on the fact that most of our suppliers, including retouchers, illustrators, photographers, post-production houses and other graphics oriented facilities, use Macs as well. It may be different in Oz, but in the US, graphic arts are still dominated by Macs. Paul On Feb 28, 2004, at 3:24 PM, Rob Studdert wrote: On 28 Feb 2004 at 8:16, David Miers wrote: The important concerns here for me are do I need to be competent on a Mac to be competent in the industry? (Yes, I probably do) No that's pure BS. All the major printed publications in Oz have been PC based for over 15 years. Only little self obsessed design houses wouldn't offer you your platform of your choice.
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
Cotty: I don't think that case, motherboard etc for a Mac can be bought separately... Yes they can. All right. I've just never seen new Mac parts for sale, while PC parts are all over the place. Is it like Linux where different drives or partitions simply have different directory names? I don't know if it is like Linux. It isn't. In Linux (and other Unixes) there is a root file system named / (a slash) and in that you have a hierarchic file tree in the usual way. But unlike DOS and Mac there is only one hierarchy. Different hard disks/partitions are attached to this tree in an apparently seamless fashion. Speaking of trees, it's kinda like grafting. The root file system usually contains directories like /etc and /usr while the direcories /home and /var can be on other disks/partitions. There is no way to tell from the name only, that /home is on another disk than /etc. And, you can graft in any point in the tree; even several directories deep. anders -- with a MacOS9, a MacOSX, a Win2000, 2 Linuxes and a Sun Solaris - http://anders.hultman.nu/
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
On 28 Feb 2004 at 15:30, Paul Stenquist wrote: I work for an advertising agency with close to 3000 employees, including approximately 700 designers, art directors, and writers. While the other 2300 employees use PCs, all creatives use Macs. You don't get a choice, because we have to be transparently interconnected within the creative department. There is no technical reason other than the utilization of Mac centric applications that prevent data being shared between Mac and PC based work- stations on a variety of networks. I've been doing it for years and so have many of my past clients in the design, publishing, pre-press and printing industries. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
On 28/2/04, NORM disgorged: Minnie and Duki? We won't even ask where these come from... Norm ;-) Cotty wrote: The latter is called Minnie and Duki, and the other drive is called PS Scratch. Minnie has 10.3 on, and Duki has 9.1 on. LOL. Waddya think? CATS! Minnie the Minx and an Aduki bean... Actually don't ask. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads http://www.macads.co.uk
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
Hi David, Comments interspersed: I have been taking some college courses at our local university and all of the computers in the graphics dept are Mac. They are only running OS 9.1 or 9.2...can't remember for sure. As I understand this is pretty outdated for today. Correct. Bear that in mind. As a long time windows user I find myself in an environment that is quite different. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but this type of system seems very much lacking as compared to windows. Non sequitur. If I drove a Ferrari Formula 1 car for a long time, and then sat in a US-style Funny car drag racer, I would be pretty bewildered. However, I would not climb into it without first learning where all the controls were. That's just me. Both cars go very fast, but do things in a different way. The drag racer might argue that the F1 car was lacking because it won't go as fast. The F1 supremo might argue that the drag racer won't turn corners. They both are cars and they both drive, but they're both different. Now please all, I'm not trying to start a war here, but really need to understand some basics here about Macs in a way that I can compare it to PC. No need to compare it to a PC. Start afresh. One thing you've got to remember: Macs are really very simple - they have to be because a lot of people that us them aren't as - how should I put this - adept with all the techno gobbledy-gook as a lot of PC users are. Graphics artists (for example) are more interested in creating there work and having access to it than figuring out how to navigate a baffling storage method. On a Mac, when you want to access a CD, you put the CD in the drive and it's icon appears on the desktop in front of you. There's no such thing as A, B, C or D drives. You look on the desktop (called the Finder) and there it is. Anyway, onto your questions... Where files are kept and going by default seems to be a mystery to me for the most part. What sort of files are you referring to? Files that are created? Like when you open MS Word or AppleWorks and write a letter to the bank? Okay - let's say you did just that. You open MS Word and start a new document called 'Letter to the bank'. You write it, and save it. When you save it, you are given the option of WHERE you want to save it to (both OS 9 and OS X), or you can leave the default setting which entirely depends on the application. Most apps default to a folder called 'Documents' (OS X) which is in the Home folder - where all the user data is stored. This works, but quite soon, that Documents folder is going to get pretty full with a lot of crap that you've saved, so this is where you get to be really creative and make a brand new folder. You can do that straight from the 'Save' window - and even decide where you want to keep this new folder, and the millions of other folders that you will create over time. You can save them straight onto the desktop, or put them anywhere you like (9 and X). I like seeing a lot of my folders right on my desktop, so often I'll just drag and drop straight in (tip: click and drag a file and hover over a closed folder, and it will pop open so you can then drag over another folder within, and hover there again, and it will open up again, and drop it in, or carry on). Or you can keep all your folders completely hidden out of site. On OS 9 you create your folders on the computer's hard drive icon on the desktop. Same in OS X, but you can hide the hard drive icon by deselecting 'hard drive' in the 'show these items on desktop' in the FinderPreferences (top left on the menubar in Finder). Then you would have a completely clear desktop, and all your folders would be hidden. See below on how to navigate to them... I wish I could find a simple tool such as windows explorer to see and understand the file structure on the hard drive. In OS X, any open window can do this. To open a window in OS X on the desktop, simply go to the menubar at the top (in the Finder) and open the File menu - first choice down: New Finder Window. A good shortcut is 'Command' + 'N'. The 'Command' key is the 'Apple' key with the strange squiggly shape on it, first left of the space-bar. In OS X, you can go anywhere from here. In X.3, the window is much more configurable, with an area for aliases at left as short cuts. In any OS X window you can select Icon View, List View, or Directory View, so you can navigate your way anywhere on the computer from this one open window. Better, you can have it so that as you navigate your way through the strata of folders, each new window opens in your existing window, rather like a web browser, complete with forward and back buttons. This makes things very easy to retrace your steps, and is not as clunky (IN MY OPINION) as Windows Explorer. Possibly such a tool is disabled since it is a school system? Unlikely. To navigate your way around OS 9, is much more of a folder- opening exercise. It is very outdated now, and as you surmise, time-
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
I will delete most of Cotty's excellent well-balanced reply. I do need to add two suggestions. 1. David, re: the deleted 'icon'. Whether it is a deleted file, folder, application, or alias, it was not deleted. It was moved to the Trash. It is probably still there. Open the Trash, click and drag the 'icon' back to the desktop or anywhere else. See Cotty's suggestions on where to place things. 2. WRT the 'sluggish' behavior of the Mac: a. OS-X.3 is definitely worth the investment, both for ease of use and for speed. I am a few years behind Cotty in making the conversion, it was not painless, but it was worth it. b. It is criminal to use OS9.1; OS9.2 is far more stable and faster and it is a simple process to download and install the upgrade. c. Using OS9.x and earlier Mac systems, you periodically need to do something called cleaning the desktop folder. Think of it like flushing the cache on a web browser. To do this on the Mac, you hold down a special key combination during start-up. I never remember the combination - check the help menu. Personal computers I have used include PDP-8, Osborne, Commodore 64, 10-15 Intel-based systems running DOS and successive versions of Windows, about 8 different Macs and clones starting with the Mac+, System 3.0 I believe. I use both at the office, primarily a Mac. (A docked Powerbook.) The day my office tells me that I can no longer use a Mac as my primary work machine is the day I resign/retire. I cannot imagine any job being worth the pain of being forced to put up with a Windows system. It is not just the OS that is the issue, it is that people who design for the Mac more often design usable programs that don't treat the user as though they were an idiot. But both systems work, and ultimately it comes down to what you are comfortable with. Stan Cotty wrote: Hi David, Comments interspersed: I have been taking some college courses at our local university and all of the computers in the graphics dept are Mac. They are only running OS 9.1 or 9.2...can't remember for sure. As I understand this is pretty outdated for today. Correct. Bear that in mind.
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
On 27/2/04, STAN DA MAN disgorged: c. Using OS9.x and earlier Mac systems, you periodically need to do something called cleaning the desktop folder. Think of it like flushing the cache on a web browser. To do this on the Mac, you hold down a special key combination during start-up. I never remember the combination - check the help menu. Yup, that's Command + Option on startup until a window asks 'Do you want to rebuild the desktop'? then release and click yes. It asks for each HD and each partition. BTW cheers Stan :-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads http://www.macads.co.uk
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
I couldn't hep but notice, in the latest flare-up of Mac advocacy, that once again one of the purported strengths of the Mac is that you don't have to understand the inner workings to be able to use the machine sucessfully. Oddly enough the same argument can be applied to cameras, but the suggestion is generally treated with derision.
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
Hi, If anyone can simply give me an answer to some of the questions I've raised or direct me to a primer that will help me understand the Mac's better I'd greatly appreciate it. these 2 books might be useful: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0321168895/103-4897021-8602210?v=glance -- Cheers, Bob
Re: OT: Mac vs. Pc the differences as per graphics apps..long
Actually John, I think that you need to know a fair amount about any complex mechanism to best make use of it. Be it a camera or a computer or a form of operating system or an application or utility. DOS/Windows (and CPM before them) have just made different assumptions about the user than the Apple/Mac designers have. At the risk of being inflammatory, and please recognize that this is my personal opinion, not stated as a Fact: I believe that MS engineers believe that the world is separated into two classes: total idiots, and geeks. They grudgingly make allowance for the idiots, but don't really expect anyone without a certificate of geekdom from the MS magic kingdom to get underneath the surface. Apple/Mac on the other hand seems to assume that all users are geniuses who can grasp the whole beauty of the system, who really want to explore many ways of doing things, who are seeking to find themselves and will use the computer as a tool to help themselves along the way. The 'ease of use' is only skin deep; you have to know much about the system to be able to take advantage of it. I bet there is a large portion of the Mac using population who have never 'rebuilt' their desktop. They can get by, but sooner or later they will buy a new machine because the old one 'is slowing down.' As though electronic devices slowed down the way mechanical ones do. In summary, both systems take work to understand and use properly and effectively, the Windows approach calls for a lower minimal necessary knowledge level but a larger step to move from almost total incompetence to reasonably effective user. Macs are a bit harder to understand at first sight, but mastery of a few simple consistent concepts will quickly move you to more effective use. IMHO. Stan John Francis wrote: I couldn't hep but notice, in the latest flare-up of Mac advocacy, that once again one of the purported strengths of the Mac is that you don't have to understand the inner workings to be able to use the machine sucessfully. Oddly enough the same argument can be applied to cameras, but the suggestion is generally treated with derision.
