Re: OT: Organic
Hi Bob So glad to hear they're well and I'll pray they stay that way! Cheers Ecke 2009/9/13 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Thanks Paul, they are doing fine. Regards, Bob S. On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 5:16 PM, paul stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote: That must have been tough Bob. I hope they're in full remission and everything is good. Paul On Sep 12, 2009, at 6:04 PM, AlunFoto wrote: Hope your boys came through allright, Bob. That's exactly the kind of situation I was thinking about for increased risk of getting MRSA infections. I believe some investigations have shown that misunderstandings about how to prevent infection among nurses and other healthcare personel must carry part of the blame for spreading the bugs. Not sure if it was conducted in Europe or US though... Jostein 2009/9/11 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Both of my boys went thru 3 rounds of chemotherapy for testicular cancer, 9 and 3 years ago. 3 x (one week in the hospital with 24 hour IV drip, then 2 weeks off to recover blood counts). They were pretty well wiped out by the 3rd round and the hospital got better about infection protection as time progressed. Staff did things like posting a warning outside the hospital room about infections and looking for better hygene (hand washing) from all who entered the room. Regards, Bob S. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
Thanks Ecke, Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 2:54 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Bob So glad to hear they're well and I'll pray they stay that way! Cheers Ecke 2009/9/13 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Thanks Paul, they are doing fine. Regards, Bob S. On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 5:16 PM, paul stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote: That must have been tough Bob. I hope they're in full remission and everything is good. Paul On Sep 12, 2009, at 6:04 PM, AlunFoto wrote: Hope your boys came through allright, Bob. That's exactly the kind of situation I was thinking about for increased risk of getting MRSA infections. I believe some investigations have shown that misunderstandings about how to prevent infection among nurses and other healthcare personel must carry part of the blame for spreading the bugs. Not sure if it was conducted in Europe or US though... Jostein 2009/9/11 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Both of my boys went thru 3 rounds of chemotherapy for testicular cancer, 9 and 3 years ago. 3 x (one week in the hospital with 24 hour IV drip, then 2 weeks off to recover blood counts). They were pretty well wiped out by the 3rd round and the hospital got better about infection protection as time progressed. Staff did things like posting a warning outside the hospital room about infections and looking for better hygene (hand washing) from all who entered the room. Regards, Bob S. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
Hope your boys came through allright, Bob. That's exactly the kind of situation I was thinking about for increased risk of getting MRSA infections. I believe some investigations have shown that misunderstandings about how to prevent infection among nurses and other healthcare personel must carry part of the blame for spreading the bugs. Not sure if it was conducted in Europe or US though... Jostein 2009/9/11 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Both of my boys went thru 3 rounds of chemotherapy for testicular cancer, 9 and 3 years ago. 3 x (one week in the hospital with 24 hour IV drip, then 2 weeks off to recover blood counts). They were pretty well wiped out by the 3rd round and the hospital got better about infection protection as time progressed. Staff did things like posting a warning outside the hospital room about infections and looking for better hygene (hand washing) from all who entered the room. Regards, Bob S. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
That must have been tough Bob. I hope they're in full remission and everything is good. Paul On Sep 12, 2009, at 6:04 PM, AlunFoto wrote: Hope your boys came through allright, Bob. That's exactly the kind of situation I was thinking about for increased risk of getting MRSA infections. I believe some investigations have shown that misunderstandings about how to prevent infection among nurses and other healthcare personel must carry part of the blame for spreading the bugs. Not sure if it was conducted in Europe or US though... Jostein 2009/9/11 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Both of my boys went thru 3 rounds of chemotherapy for testicular cancer, 9 and 3 years ago. 3 x (one week in the hospital with 24 hour IV drip, then 2 weeks off to recover blood counts). They were pretty well wiped out by the 3rd round and the hospital got better about infection protection as time progressed. Staff did things like posting a warning outside the hospital room about infections and looking for better hygene (hand washing) from all who entered the room. Regards, Bob S. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
Thanks Jostein. They are both OK so far. The oldest is 9 years out, so he's 'officially' cured. The whole thing gives you a lot of awareness of what goes on in the hospital. You need to be an advocate for your patient. After a lot of face to face contact, the staff gets more careful. I think infection protection improved from the 1st to 2nd son. Regards, Bob S. On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 5:04 PM, AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com wrote: Hope your boys came through allright, Bob. That's exactly the kind of situation I was thinking about for increased risk of getting MRSA infections. I believe some investigations have shown that misunderstandings about how to prevent infection among nurses and other healthcare personel must carry part of the blame for spreading the bugs. Not sure if it was conducted in Europe or US though... Jostein 2009/9/11 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Both of my boys went thru 3 rounds of chemotherapy for testicular cancer, 9 and 3 years ago. 3 x (one week in the hospital with 24 hour IV drip, then 2 weeks off to recover blood counts). They were pretty well wiped out by the 3rd round and the hospital got better about infection protection as time progressed. Staff did things like posting a warning outside the hospital room about infections and looking for better hygene (hand washing) from all who entered the room. Regards, Bob S. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
Thanks Paul, they are doing fine. Regards, Bob S. On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 5:16 PM, paul stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote: That must have been tough Bob. I hope they're in full remission and everything is good. Paul On Sep 12, 2009, at 6:04 PM, AlunFoto wrote: Hope your boys came through allright, Bob. That's exactly the kind of situation I was thinking about for increased risk of getting MRSA infections. I believe some investigations have shown that misunderstandings about how to prevent infection among nurses and other healthcare personel must carry part of the blame for spreading the bugs. Not sure if it was conducted in Europe or US though... Jostein 2009/9/11 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Both of my boys went thru 3 rounds of chemotherapy for testicular cancer, 9 and 3 years ago. 3 x (one week in the hospital with 24 hour IV drip, then 2 weeks off to recover blood counts). They were pretty well wiped out by the 3rd round and the hospital got better about infection protection as time progressed. Staff did things like posting a warning outside the hospital room about infections and looking for better hygene (hand washing) from all who entered the room. Regards, Bob S. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
I reckon as a customer you can now demand the alternative, inorganic vegetables and fresh produce. Like Ralf used to say non-periodic table... However, seriously, I've noticed that myself few times when I went into supermarkets during my most recent visit to MD/DC area. Boris John Sessoms wrote: Noticed when I went grocery shopping this week that the local chain supermarket I shop at no longer carries regular vegetables fresh produce. Everything is now Organic. I can't see or detect any difference other than the higher prices. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
2009/9/8 John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com: What exactly *IS* organic? How does a product qualify to have that label? It's like things labeled natural. It doesn't mean anything. What I do know is that unless you _are_ a vegetable, there's no such thing as inorganic food. :-) What defined as organic is defined in legislation in Europe. However I feel that the health effect of organic (or ecological as it is labelled in Norway) is overrated for many products. Scary stories like the peppers from Germany of course reinforces the good vs. bad dichotomy, but for most products I don't think the difference is that dramatic. On another note, high quality (and high price) non-organic food is competing directly with its organic counterparts. The cheap stuff is bad whether it's organic or not. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
The principal difference to me is that organic fruit and vegetables reduce the amount of fertilizers and persticides polluting our water and that organic meat even more importantly reduces the amount of antibiotics released into the environment. Antibiotics are in fact traceable in almost all liquid water (except freshly molten glacier water etc) and affect the food chain and nature's system as a whole by either reducing bacterail growth or forcing the development by mutation of singly or multiply resistant bacteria. Anyone ever heard of the death toll of MRSA in hospitals? Well worth reading... it is not about your health, it is about the damage you do mainly. There are enough toxic substances in the environment to easily offset the benefits of organic food as it is... Cheers Ecke 2009/9/11 AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com: 2009/9/8 John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com: What exactly *IS* organic? How does a product qualify to have that label? It's like things labeled natural. It doesn't mean anything. What I do know is that unless you _are_ a vegetable, there's no such thing as inorganic food. :-) What defined as organic is defined in legislation in Europe. However I feel that the health effect of organic (or ecological as it is labelled in Norway) is overrated for many products. Scary stories like the peppers from Germany of course reinforces the good vs. bad dichotomy, but for most products I don't think the difference is that dramatic. On another note, high quality (and high price) non-organic food is competing directly with its organic counterparts. The cheap stuff is bad whether it's organic or not. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
Be careful about overdramatising antibiotics occurence in nature. Antibiotics occur naturally in any habitat suitable for fungal growth. I think it is a mistake to put multi-resistant bacterias in hospitals into this mix. It has very little to do with use of pesticides in agriculture, or antibiotics in livestock. It has all the more to do with the sloppy practice of GPs in prescribing antibiotics for situations where they are not needed or not effective (ie viral infections), and with general incompetence in the public about using antibiotics. It is very common that patients quits the antibiotics treatment when they start to feel better, rather than finishing the cure. In addition, they save the leftovers for later occasion, taking them as they would aspirin. This practice promotes resistance in _human_ pathogens directly, and is a much larger problem than use of antibiotics in livestock. I wish this could receive even half as much attention as all this stuff about clean food. It would do both us and nature a huge favour. Jostein 2009/9/11 eckinator eckina...@gmail.com: The principal difference to me is that organic fruit and vegetables reduce the amount of fertilizers and persticides polluting our water and that organic meat even more importantly reduces the amount of antibiotics released into the environment. Antibiotics are in fact traceable in almost all liquid water (except freshly molten glacier water etc) and affect the food chain and nature's system as a whole by either reducing bacterail growth or forcing the development by mutation of singly or multiply resistant bacteria. Anyone ever heard of the death toll of MRSA in hospitals? Well worth reading... it is not about your health, it is about the damage you do mainly. There are enough toxic substances in the environment to easily offset the benefits of organic food as it is... Cheers Ecke 2009/9/11 AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com: 2009/9/8 John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com: What exactly *IS* organic? How does a product qualify to have that label? It's like things labeled natural. It doesn't mean anything. What I do know is that unless you _are_ a vegetable, there's no such thing as inorganic food. :-) What defined as organic is defined in legislation in Europe. However I feel that the health effect of organic (or ecological as it is labelled in Norway) is overrated for many products. Scary stories like the peppers from Germany of course reinforces the good vs. bad dichotomy, but for most products I don't think the difference is that dramatic. On another note, high quality (and high price) non-organic food is competing directly with its organic counterparts. The cheap stuff is bad whether it's organic or not. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
Glad you go into so much detail =) What I was trying to do was to point out the bigger picture in somewhat simpler terms. Yes, there is natural occurrence of ABs but synthetic ones are clearly traceable and we cannot ignore their impact in terms of promoting resistance. MRSA was an illustration of what multiresistance can lead to. 19.000 documented deaths in the US in 2005, in fact more lives than AIDS claimed in the same year. I totally agree about excessive (mis)use of ABs by doctors and patients alike. Similar effects are observable with Malaria BTW. What we shouldn't underestimate is the enormous AB abuse in livestock. In many places, ABs are added to food in much the same way as vitamins and minerals and there is at least in the EU no legislation banning ABs for any time outside the last six weeks before slaughtering. If you then look at the genetic similarities between humans/primates and other land mammals (IIRC from biology class pigs share 97% DNA with humans) it becomes quite clear that there is or will be an impact, now or at some point. And yes about the huge favor we'd be doing nature. I guess I am oversensitive though because I have the feeling that most people around me just don't give a flying fuck about these things with the sorry excuse that nothing they can do will change or save a thing. I guess many of us have to think that way unless they want to question their lifestyle. Rant mode off and sorry for wasting everyone's time. Cheers Ecke 2009/9/11 AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com: Be careful about overdramatising antibiotics occurence in nature. Antibiotics occur naturally in any habitat suitable for fungal growth. I think it is a mistake to put multi-resistant bacterias in hospitals into this mix. It has very little to do with use of pesticides in agriculture, or antibiotics in livestock. It has all the more to do with the sloppy practice of GPs in prescribing antibiotics for situations where they are not needed or not effective (ie viral infections), and with general incompetence in the public about using antibiotics. It is very common that patients quits the antibiotics treatment when they start to feel better, rather than finishing the cure. In addition, they save the leftovers for later occasion, taking them as they would aspirin. This practice promotes resistance in _human_ pathogens directly, and is a much larger problem than use of antibiotics in livestock. I wish this could receive even half as much attention as all this stuff about clean food. It would do both us and nature a huge favour. Jostein 2009/9/11 eckinator eckina...@gmail.com: The principal difference to me is that organic fruit and vegetables reduce the amount of fertilizers and persticides polluting our water and that organic meat even more importantly reduces the amount of antibiotics released into the environment. Antibiotics are in fact traceable in almost all liquid water (except freshly molten glacier water etc) and affect the food chain and nature's system as a whole by either reducing bacterail growth or forcing the development by mutation of singly or multiply resistant bacteria. Anyone ever heard of the death toll of MRSA in hospitals? Well worth reading... it is not about your health, it is about the damage you do mainly. There are enough toxic substances in the environment to easily offset the benefits of organic food as it is... Cheers Ecke 2009/9/11 AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com: 2009/9/8 John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com: What exactly *IS* organic? How does a product qualify to have that label? It's like things labeled natural. It doesn't mean anything. What I do know is that unless you _are_ a vegetable, there's no such thing as inorganic food. :-) What defined as organic is defined in legislation in Europe. However I feel that the health effect of organic (or ecological as it is labelled in Norway) is overrated for many products. Scary stories like the peppers from Germany of course reinforces the good vs. bad dichotomy, but for most products I don't think the difference is that dramatic. On another note, high quality (and high price) non-organic food is competing directly with its organic counterparts. The cheap stuff is bad whether it's organic or not. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link
Re: OT: Organic
2009/9/11 eckinator eckina...@gmail.com: I guess I am oversensitive though because I have the feeling that most people around me just don't give a flying fuck about these things with the sorry excuse that nothing they can do will change or save a thing. I believe we think quite similarly about this. And their argument is simply standing in for the comfort of not knowing what's going on. It's the price of a specialised society, I guess... There are lots of things I will never bother about either. Such as the finer nits of stock brokering, for example... :-) I guess many of us have to think that way unless they want to question their lifestyle. Indeed. That's true across all social strata, I think. Rant mode off and sorry for wasting everyone's time. Are we doing anything else here? Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
Again be careful. MRSA deaths are an old people nursing home problem, after significant hospital stays and treatment. I expect germs and antibotic are each 100X the typical occurence. Regards, Bob S. On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:11 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: Glad you go into so much detail =) What I was trying to do was to point out the bigger picture in somewhat simpler terms. Yes, there is natural occurrence of ABs but synthetic ones are clearly traceable and we cannot ignore their impact in terms of promoting resistance. MRSA was an illustration of what multiresistance can lead to. 19.000 documented deaths in the US in 2005, in fact more lives than AIDS claimed in the same year. I totally agree about excessive (mis)use of ABs by doctors and patients alike. Similar effects are observable with Malaria BTW. What we shouldn't underestimate is the enormous AB abuse in livestock. In many places, ABs are added to food in much the same way as vitamins and minerals and there is at least in the EU no legislation banning ABs for any time outside the last six weeks before slaughtering. If you then look at the genetic similarities between humans/primates and other land mammals (IIRC from biology class pigs share 97% DNA with humans) it becomes quite clear that there is or will be an impact, now or at some point. And yes about the huge favor we'd be doing nature. I guess I am oversensitive though because I have the feeling that most people around me just don't give a flying fuck about these things with the sorry excuse that nothing they can do will change or save a thing. I guess many of us have to think that way unless they want to question their lifestyle. Rant mode off and sorry for wasting everyone's time. Cheers Ecke 2009/9/11 AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com: Be careful about overdramatising antibiotics occurence in nature. Antibiotics occur naturally in any habitat suitable for fungal growth. I think it is a mistake to put multi-resistant bacterias in hospitals into this mix. It has very little to do with use of pesticides in agriculture, or antibiotics in livestock. It has all the more to do with the sloppy practice of GPs in prescribing antibiotics for situations where they are not needed or not effective (ie viral infections), and with general incompetence in the public about using antibiotics. It is very common that patients quits the antibiotics treatment when they start to feel better, rather than finishing the cure. In addition, they save the leftovers for later occasion, taking them as they would aspirin. This practice promotes resistance in _human_ pathogens directly, and is a much larger problem than use of antibiotics in livestock. I wish this could receive even half as much attention as all this stuff about clean food. It would do both us and nature a huge favour. Jostein 2009/9/11 eckinator eckina...@gmail.com: The principal difference to me is that organic fruit and vegetables reduce the amount of fertilizers and persticides polluting our water and that organic meat even more importantly reduces the amount of antibiotics released into the environment. Antibiotics are in fact traceable in almost all liquid water (except freshly molten glacier water etc) and affect the food chain and nature's system as a whole by either reducing bacterail growth or forcing the development by mutation of singly or multiply resistant bacteria. Anyone ever heard of the death toll of MRSA in hospitals? Well worth reading... it is not about your health, it is about the damage you do mainly. There are enough toxic substances in the environment to easily offset the benefits of organic food as it is... Cheers Ecke 2009/9/11 AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com: 2009/9/8 John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com: What exactly *IS* organic? How does a product qualify to have that label? It's like things labeled natural. It doesn't mean anything. What I do know is that unless you _are_ a vegetable, there's no such thing as inorganic food. :-) What defined as organic is defined in legislation in Europe. However I feel that the health effect of organic (or ecological as it is labelled in Norway) is overrated for many products. Scary stories like the peppers from Germany of course reinforces the good vs. bad dichotomy, but for most products I don't think the difference is that dramatic. On another note, high quality (and high price) non-organic food is competing directly with its organic counterparts. The cheap stuff is bad whether it's organic or not. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the
Re: OT: Organic
2009/9/11 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: MRSA deaths are an old people nursing home problem, after significant hospital stays and treatment. To a point. As for morbidity/mortality rates, point taken. As for infections, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-resistant_Staphylococcus_aureus MRSA seems to be spreading beyond the hospital population from what the article says. I expect germs and antibotic are each 100X the typical occurence. Please help, my English is failing me - what do you mean by that? Thanks Ecke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
2009/9/11 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Again be careful. MRSA deaths are an old people nursing home problem, after significant hospital stays and treatment. I expect germs and antibotic are each 100X the typical occurence. Regards, Bob S. Fortunately, it's still mostly true that the so-called superbugs are only successful at infecting people with already reduced immune systems. So they're only super in their resistance against common ABs, not in infectiousness. It's irony that the environments most suited to their propagation is where people go when they do have reduced immune systems. Whether of old age, injury or other diseases. IOW, it's where you would expect such bugs to thrive. It's their habitat. BTW, it's also a serious problem that their existence can undermine people's confidence in the healthcare system. :-( Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com wrote: Are we doing anything else here? Mark! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
I mean the incidence of germs and infections in the aged nursing home/hospitalized folks is 100 times normal and the use of antibiotics on this group is 100 times normal. Here we have a population that is cronically ill and generously medicated to try and keep them alive. Regards, Bob S. On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:48 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/11 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: MRSA deaths are an old people nursing home problem, after significant hospital stays and treatment. To a point. As for morbidity/mortality rates, point taken. As for infections, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-resistant_Staphylococcus_aureus MRSA seems to be spreading beyond the hospital population from what the article says. I expect germs and antibotic are each 100X the typical occurence. Please help, my English is failing me - what do you mean by that? Thanks Ecke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
Both of my boys went thru 3 rounds of chemotherapy for testicular cancer, 9 and 3 years ago. 3 x (one week in the hospital with 24 hour IV drip, then 2 weeks off to recover blood counts). They were pretty well wiped out by the 3rd round and the hospital got better about infection protection as time progressed. Staff did things like posting a warning outside the hospital room about infections and looking for better hygene (hand washing) from all who entered the room. Regards, Bob S. On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:14 AM, AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/11 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Again be careful. MRSA deaths are an old people nursing home problem, after significant hospital stays and treatment. I expect germs and antibotic are each 100X the typical occurence. Regards, Bob S. Fortunately, it's still mostly true that the so-called superbugs are only successful at infecting people with already reduced immune systems. So they're only super in their resistance against common ABs, not in infectiousness. It's irony that the environments most suited to their propagation is where people go when they do have reduced immune systems. Whether of old age, injury or other diseases. IOW, it's where you would expect such bugs to thrive. It's their habitat. BTW, it's also a serious problem that their existence can undermine people's confidence in the healthcare system. :-( Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
And by the same token, less of that stuff to contaminate you, too. In Germany they tested green peppers in 2007 and found pesticide residue as much as 200 times the legal limit. Also, organic protects me from genetically engineered food which causes quite a number of well documented issues in animals. Cheers Ecke 2009/9/8 Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com: For the most part it's not supposed to be different for you and me: It's supposed to be better for the environment (fewer pesticides and fertilizers contaminating soil and water). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Organic
Noticed when I went grocery shopping this week that the local chain supermarket I shop at no longer carries regular vegetables fresh produce. Everything is now Organic. Everything? That's amazing - even Whole Foods Market has conventional as well as organic produce. I can't see or detect any difference other than the higher prices. For the most part it's not supposed to be different for you and me: It's supposed to be better for the environment (fewer pesticides and fertilizers contaminating soil and water). It also usually tastes better. Tomatoes are the prime example of this for me, but it's true of most meat as well. However, the organic market has changed a lot since the days (early 80s) when I started to eat it. Back then you could only buy it in weird little shops out of jute sacks, you had to have a beard (women included), and the quality was often rather suspect. I remember once buying some cashews from an enormous sack and when I got home I found that half the cashews were in fact maggots. Never went to that shop again. Organic is big business now, and some of the former benefits have been sacrificed to ease of production, convenience and standardised packaging and sizing. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com wrote: John Sessoms wrote: Noticed when I went grocery shopping this week that the local chain supermarket I shop at no longer carries regular vegetables fresh produce. Everything is now Organic. I can't see or detect any difference other than the higher prices. Organic is a tax on the gullible. Yes, I'd rather pay an agrogiant corp for a bucket of its fertiliser than someone for the sweat of their brow, too. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
Ecke, Haven't heard of this documented before. Better watch out for Wheat, the MOST genetically engineered crop...for thousands of years. Regards, Bob S. On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 1:13 AM, eckinatoreckina...@gmail.com wrote: And by the same token, less of that stuff to contaminate you, too. In Germany they tested green peppers in 2007 and found pesticide residue as much as 200 times the legal limit. Also, organic protects me from genetically engineered food which causes quite a number of well documented issues in animals. Cheers Ecke 2009/9/8 Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com: For the most part it's not supposed to be different for you and me: It's supposed to be better for the environment (fewer pesticides and fertilizers contaminating soil and water). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
Hi Bob [... insert random Monsanto is EVIL rant here ...] It is all visible in documentaries by the BBC and the like who have nothing to gain from it except lawsuits. Plus Percy Schmeister gave his lifetime savings to defeat them and spends his time fighting them for a REASON. Cheers Ecke 2009/9/8 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Ecke, Haven't heard of this documented before. Better watch out for Wheat, the MOST genetically engineered crop...for thousands of years. Regards, Bob S. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
The only reason I can see, and it is a good one, are the single harvest seeds. Since agriculture began farmers have planted their fields with the best seeds saved from the previous years harvest. Lots of farmers don't do that any more. It's easier to just buy seed for the new crop, but the seeds that are sterile the generation after you buy them really are a work of evil. eckinator wrote: Hi Bob [... insert random Monsanto is EVIL rant here ...] It is all visible in documentaries by the BBC and the like who have nothing to gain from it except lawsuits. Plus Percy Schmeister gave his lifetime savings to defeat them and spends his time fighting them for a REASON. Cheers Ecke 2009/9/8 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Ecke, Haven't heard of this documented before. Better watch out for Wheat, the MOST genetically engineered crop...for thousands of years. Regards, Bob S. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog. --G. K. Chesterton -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Organic
The thing is this looks like the agro-giants are just relabeling. It would be one thing if the prices on produce had gone up, but what it looks like to me is they're trying to hide a price hike behind a new buzzword. What exactly *IS* organic? How does a product qualify to have that label? It's like things labeled natural. It doesn't mean anything. In Europe it is defined in law. http://www.soilassociation.org/Whyorganic/Whatisorganic/tabid/206/Default.as px Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
John Sessoms wrote: What exactly *IS* organic? How does a product qualify to have that label? It's like things labeled natural. It doesn't mean anything. Yes it does. In fact, that's precisely the *difference* between natural and organic: The former doesn't mean anything but food has to meet very strict standards (in North America, Europe, Japan and a few other countries) to be labeled organic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
From: mike wilson P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com wrote: John Sessoms wrote: Noticed when I went grocery shopping this week that the local chain supermarket I shop at no longer carries regular vegetables fresh produce. Everything is now Organic. I can't see or detect any difference other than the higher prices. Organic is a tax on the gullible. Yes, I'd rather pay an agrogiant corp for a bucket of its fertiliser than someone for the sweat of their brow, too. The thing is this looks like the agro-giants are just relabeling. It would be one thing if the prices on produce had gone up, but what it looks like to me is they're trying to hide a price hike behind a new buzzword. What exactly *IS* organic? How does a product qualify to have that label? It's like things labeled natural. It doesn't mean anything. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
OT: Organic
Noticed when I went grocery shopping this week that the local chain supermarket I shop at no longer carries regular vegetables fresh produce. Everything is now Organic. I can't see or detect any difference other than the higher prices. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
John Sessoms wrote: Noticed when I went grocery shopping this week that the local chain supermarket I shop at no longer carries regular vegetables fresh produce. Everything is now Organic. I can't see or detect any difference other than the higher prices. Organic is a tax on the gullible. -- The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog. --G. K. Chesterton -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
Find a new supermarket. You should at least have the option of choice. Paul On Sep 7, 2009, at 7:36 PM, John Sessoms wrote: Noticed when I went grocery shopping this week that the local chain supermarket I shop at no longer carries regular vegetables fresh produce. Everything is now Organic. I can't see or detect any difference other than the higher prices. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
John Sessoms wrote: Noticed when I went grocery shopping this week that the local chain supermarket I shop at no longer carries regular vegetables fresh produce. Everything is now Organic. Everything? That's amazing - even Whole Foods Market has conventional as well as organic produce. I can't see or detect any difference other than the higher prices. For the most part it's not supposed to be different for you and me: It's supposed to be better for the environment (fewer pesticides and fertilizers contaminating soil and water). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Organic
From: P. J. Alling John Sessoms wrote: Noticed when I went grocery shopping this week that the local chain supermarket I shop at no longer carries regular vegetables fresh produce. Everything is now Organic. I can't see or detect any difference other than the higher prices. Organic is a tax on the gullible. Yeah. If I had the choice between non-organic and organic at a slightly higher price, I might buy organic if it offered visibly better quality. But there is no longer a choice. It's buy organic or don't buy vegetables. I'm not about to change stores, because this was already the best, least expensive, most convenient place for me to shop. The alternatives are a couple of up-scale boutique grocers, boutique wannabes, and Food Lion - who pissed me off enough I'll never shop there again ... and Food Lion's prices were higher anyway. I'm just less than delighted that NON-organic is apparently no longer on offer. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
