RE: A turning point?
On 30 Nov 2003 at 22:22, Cesar Matamoros II wrote: I differ slightly in that I use a grey card to set my manual white balance. Something I found that worked better when I first started using the Nikon D1X and D1H. I should try a comparison using both techniques. I know that I have used a white page in the pinch and have been happy with the results. Though with some thinking on the subject it would make me think that using a grey card would allow some more lattitude in post processing... Using a grey or white card to set WB shouldn't affect latitude, it's a relative setting not absolute. Also I from my experience the variances in the colour of grey cards is far greater than that of bright white papers. The only problem that you may encounter with some camera when balancing off white paper in direct sunlight is sensor saturation. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: A turning point?
just thinking... instead of using say a red filter on the lens, could i wb the istD on a red card? or maybe on a green card? has anyone tried this? arnie - Original Message - From: Rob Studdert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:56 AM Subject: RE: A turning point? On 30 Nov 2003 at 22:22, Cesar Matamoros II wrote: I differ slightly in that I use a grey card to set my manual white balance. Something I found that worked better when I first started using the Nikon D1X and D1H. I should try a comparison using both techniques. I know that I have used a white page in the pinch and have been happy with the results. Though with some thinking on the subject it would make me think that using a grey card would allow some more lattitude in post processing... Using a grey or white card to set WB shouldn't affect latitude, it's a relative setting not absolute. Also I from my experience the variances in the colour of grey cards is far greater than that of bright white papers. The only problem that you may encounter with some camera when balancing off white paper in direct sunlight is sensor saturation. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: A turning point?
On 4 Dec 2003 at 8:18, arnie wrote: just thinking... instead of using say a red filter on the lens, could i wb the istD on a red card? or maybe on a green card? Yes, WB can be used to capture a colour offset however the attenuated colours may become noisy and the colour offset may become difficult to control as it is dependent upon the target accuracy and the light under which it is used for WB. standard colour filters are a better way to go. Colour separation can be achieved during post processing assuming that you aren't intending to hand the file straight to a lab from the camera. In camera WB is a great tool however it has it's limitations For instance when shooting under tungsten lights most digicams will deliver better shadow detail, less distinct colour fringing and better colour balance in saturated image areas if an appropriate CC filter is employed prior to white balancing. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
RE: A turning point?
I've been (sort of) doing that with the LX for shots on the subway. Sit there with the camera on my lap, take off the prism, and look like I'm fiddling with the camera. The noise of the subway masks the sound of the camera, so no one even knows I've taken a photo... cheers, frank The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Malcolm Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: A turning point? Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:26:56 - snip An LX with a remote shutter release and a waist level finder works OK too for street photography. snip _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/photospgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
RE: A turning point?
Cotty wrote: CONGRATS Malc. You lucky sly dog. Thanks ;-) I am so stunned to have something new I wanted to view it in the box for a bit. Why not? As soon as it pops out of the box, its age of innocence is over And it comes out today... Now will it be a turning point? Yes. ENJOY. Take a couple of weeks and enjoy. Ask again in a month. But you'll need pain relief for the inane grin that will inhabit your mutton chops ! Indeed, and that is what I shall do. Malcolm - who still grins when picking up an LX
RE: A turning point?
Tanya Mayer wrote: I know I'm a girl, but can I marry your wife?!? Or at least get her to have a chat to my hubby? LOL! No you can't!! My wife regularly uses an MX and for the last year or so has had use of a digital point and shoot at work. Whilst she doesn't like the digital camera itself, the immediate results sold it for the *ist D. I expect she will use it a great deal, which is great. I am *green* with envy. I would have LOVED one for my son's dance concert last week!! I'm really pleased by the timing of it's arrival here. I have three children at primary school, all of which will be involved with Christmas concerts. I'll be able to send pictures off to relatives the same day now of them and opening their Christmas presents, which will go down very well with my in-laws who are hundreds of miles away. Malcolm
RE: A turning point?
frank theriault wrote: Oh-oh! We've lost another one... vbg Not quite yet (until they stop making film), I bought a few rolls of Ilford Delta 100 BW film this weekend (got a free roll with Amateur Photographer and liked it) as I love BW for manky weather shots. Cold and wet looks better on this than colour. Seriously, Malcolm, congrats. I know you'll enjoy yourself immensely. I just figured you'd be able to hold out a bit longer...g So did I, well 'til Christmas anyway! Malcolm
RE: A turning point?
Boris Liberman wrote: I am probably in different league than you're, Malcolm. It is because I use only 35 mm gear. However it occurred to me that with finally getting my ME Super fully and perfectly (knock on wood of my head g) operational, my ZX-L has become just a backup camera. I think we are all in the same league of image taking; it's just that we all have different methods of collecting them and varying degrees of talent and skill. I'm fighting to keep out of the relegation zone! I get the same pleasure from using my ME Super as I get from driving my '92 Golf. It is something that is simple, that I know won't fail me, that would get the job done, that would bring me enjoyable result. I think the same of my Land-Rover. (In case of car, it means that I would safely arrive from A to B with little hassle, and that the car would just work.) Naturally it is a matter of getting used to... Could be, if I could get *istD, I would have so gotten used to seeing the outcome right away and to that innumerable number of segments and AF zones - I couldn't use anything but... But to me, *istD is not a __turning__ point, though it is a serious __landmark__. Just count the number of posts related to it now... Darn, I am writing one right here right now... And here's another I see the *ist D as a turning point for me, as I am rarely at the cutting edge of technology. I do now have enough reason to believe that now is the time to join the digital age but not to the exclusion of film. Having followed Shels' string on candid street photography (and enjoyed Frank T's excellent examples for years) I want to give it a go myself and the best combination I could use for speed and accuracy would be an MX and 40mm 'pancake' lens. At the moment, I see digital as a colour print replacement, but give me a month and I'll post again to see if I have changed my tune. Malcolm
Re: A turning point?
Thanks, Cesar, I'll pick up a gray card and give it a try. Bill Bill, I differ slightly in that I use a grey card to set my manual white balance. Something I found that worked better when I first started using the Nikon D1X and D1H. I should try a comparison using both techniques. I know that I have used a white page in the pinch and have been happy with the results. Though with some thinking on the subject it would make me think that using a grey card would allow some more lattitude in post processing... Just an idle thought, César Panama City, Florida
RE: A turning point?
I think this is a misunderstanding (although it may be me that has it wrong!). White balance setting has nothing to do with exposure. What you need is a 'colour neutral' card. Doesn't matter whether it is grey or white - as long as it has no colour tint. The camera then uses this to apply colour correction to the image as appropriate. It has nothing to do with exposure, it is not like calibrating the light meter or anything in this respect. Therefore lattitude is unaffected. A grey card might be better on the basis that you could also use it for metering (on film and digital) but is exactly the same as a white card with respect to white balance. -Original Message- From: Cesar Matamoros II [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I differ slightly in that I use a grey card to set my manual white balance. Something I found that worked better when I first started using the Nikon D1X and D1H. I should try a comparison using both techniques. I know that I have used a white page in the pinch and have been happy with the results. Though with some thinking on the subject it would make me think that using a grey card would allow some more lattitude in post processing...
Re: A turning point?
Boy, I can see why you married her . . . ;-) The important thing to remember here is that the DSLR represents new capabilities so that many folks will currently be buying digital stuff to add that capability to their bag of tricks. There is no question, however, that this greatly reduces the use of film and film cameras so that there will be both an economic and an RD impact.
Re: A turning point?
I think using a white card also gives you your overexposure point. Something good to know with slides or digital. -- Cesar Matamoros II wrote: I differ slightly in that I use a grey card to set my manual white balance. Something I found that worked better when I first started using the Nikon D1X and D1H. I should try a comparison using both techniques. I know that I have used a white page in the pinch and have been happy with the results. Though with some thinking on the subject it would make me think that using a grey card would allow some more lattitude in post processing... -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
RE: A turning point?
Only if you don't have any direct light sources in you image, and if nothing is lit any brighter than the white card was when you calibrated, and only if you check the histogram and set a manual exposure based on that. I guess for people used to incident light metering and manual exposure this might seem reasonable, but it seems like a pain to me! I just double check each image in the 1 sec review and if not sure check the histogram. I also use RAW so I can recover a little over exposure if required. -Original Message- From: graywolf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 December 2003 16:21 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: A turning point? I think using a white card also gives you your overexposure point. Something good to know with slides or digital. -- Cesar Matamoros II wrote: I differ slightly in that I use a grey card to set my manual white balance. Something I found that worked better when I first started using the Nikon D1X and D1H. I should try a comparison using both techniques. I know that I have used a white page in the pinch and have been happy with the results. Though with some thinking on the subject it would make me think that using a grey card would allow some more lattitude in post processing... -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
Re: A turning point?
What I spoke of was for digital cameras and does hold true. You CAN recover between a half and one full stop of overexposure. This is (I think) because the jpg/tiff or possibly the 8 bit lattitude is narrower than the RAW image can capture. So you can choose which part of the full available range is used to create the jpg/tiff from the RAW file and adjust exposure a little if necessary. I do it regularly and so do many other users. Usually around 2/3 of a stop, from what I can see by poking aroung in a RAW file. But see below. White point definition is very different from white BALANCE setting. White balance is a colour temp thing ONLY. White/black points are something you can do in software - I always have to do this when scanning slides for example, and IS an exposure/contrast thing - but this is not white balance as a digital camera user can control. You can, of course, make white balance adjustments in software, too. In fact that's how the digital camera does it, as well; by scaling the R/G/B readings from the sensor whle converting to TIFF or JPEG. (for example: the 'B' values are scaled by around twice as much if the white balance is set for tungsten lighting as they would be for daylight white balance). The camera (or the software conversion code) doesn't map the full range of the sensor to the full range of the 8-bit TIFF or JPEG, either; if all the camera settings are at normal there's a bit of slack left to allow for increases in contrast, brightness. etc. This margin (together with any extra slack introduced by the white balance scaling) means you can recover some amount of overexposure, although there might sometimes be a very slight colour shift in the most extreme blown-out highlights.
RE: A turning point?
The F 50mm f/1.7 lens with the *ist D makes a great street shooting combo, too. Especially if you don't use the battery grip on it when you street shoot. Len * There's no place like 127.0.0.1 I think the *ist D (I didn't call it the StarkistD this time, in deference to the sensibilities of certain dog trainers from the Heartland of the Canadian Prairies vbg) with the 40mm Pancake will be an outstanding combo. The physical size of that combo should work on the sreet quite nicely, and I really like the focal length for that type of work (although I've lately been playing with the 19mm for the street - talk about in your face photography!). As you may recall, I have a 40mm Summicron C on my Leica. I'd really like to see what you're little baby can do for you, Malcolm. Time to take it out of the box, and start shooting (if you haven't already)!! Post away, even and especially if they're family pics. cheers, frank
RE: A turning point?
I just remembered that a 40mm on the *istD isn't really a 40, is it? What would it be, like a 55 or so? And, Len (or anyone else who would care to answer), what would a 50mm translate to in 35mm format terms? Just curious. thanks, frank The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Len Paris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: A turning point? Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:55:40 -0600 The F 50mm f/1.7 lens with the *ist D makes a great street shooting combo, too. Especially if you don't use the battery grip on it when you street shoot. Len _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/viruspgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
Re: A turning point?
multiply by 1.5. a 40mm would be 60mm and a 50mm would be 75mm Christian Skofteland [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 10:59 PM Subject: RE: A turning point? I just remembered that a 40mm on the *istD isn't really a 40, is it? What would it be, like a 55 or so? And, Len (or anyone else who would care to answer), what would a 50mm translate to in 35mm format terms? Just curious. thanks, frank
Re: A turning point?
Frank ... Multiply the focal length by 1.6 and you'll be real close ... frank theriault wrote: I just remembered that a 40mm on the *istD isn't really a 40, is it? What would it be, like a 55 or so? And, Len (or anyone else who would care to answer), what would a 50mm translate to in 35mm format terms?
Re: A turning point?
times 1.5, or tinmes 0.66 to go from digital to 35mmm. frank theriault wrote: I just remembered that a 40mm on the *istD isn't really a 40, is it? What would it be, like a 55 or so? And, Len (or anyone else who would care to answer), what would a 50mm translate to in 35mm format terms? Just curious. thanks, frank The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Len Paris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: A turning point? Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:55:40 -0600 The F 50mm f/1.7 lens with the *ist D makes a great street shooting combo, too. Especially if you don't use the battery grip on it when you street shoot. Len _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/viruspgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
Re: A turning point?
Friday just gone, I had an immediate use for a DSLR, to take photos of my youngest in a school 'play' (she's 5 next week, so it was only a small part), but I used the MX and Chinon flash for two reasons; firstly I can use the MX to provide good results without thinking and I'd not used the *ist D before and two; - and I freely admit this is a bit sad - is I am so stunned to have something new I wanted to view it in the box for a bit. This is an ideal setting for the *ist D, especially if you can get on the stage before the performance. Take a white sheet of paper (the whiter the better) on the stage and manually set the white balance for that lighting. Then, when you return to the audience, set the ISO to whatever will give you a decent shutter speed for the conditions. 1600 and 3200 may be noisy, but still a decent image. The noise can be cleaned up with some 3rd party programs if it's really objectionable, but I find it no worse than film grain. Bill
Re: A turning point?
I had no intention of getting a DSLR until I had the opportunity to use a pre-production model at last August's GFM Camera Clinic. I became so enthusiastic about it that my wife wrote the check then and there, even though we still had to wait nearly two months for delivery. Since then the 645 and P30t have been converted to cash to offset the cost, and the MZ-S feels rejected just sitting in the bag. Bill Now will it be a turning point? So many hardened film users have turned to digital so quickly with the acquisition of such a camera. I used my LX and my 67 today.I still get great pleasure every time I use them. Malcolm
RE: A turning point?
Bill Owens wrote: I had no intention of getting a DSLR until I had the opportunity to use a pre-production model at last August's GFM Camera Clinic. I became so enthusiastic about it that my wife wrote the check then and there, even though we still had to wait nearly two months for delivery. Since then the 645 and P30t have been converted to cash to offset the cost, and the MZ-S feels rejected just sitting in the bag. Well, this makes me feel good about the *ist D. I can't imagine selling photographic equipment (I have sold many other things though!). My wife loves the MXs and wishes to learn about the *ist D. Which is nice :-) Malcolm
RE: A turning point?
Bill Owens wrote: Friday just gone, I had an immediate use for a DSLR, to take photos of my youngest in a school 'play' (she's 5 next week, so it was only a small part), but I used the MX and Chinon flash for two reasons; firstly I can use the MX to provide good results without thinking and I'd not used the *ist D before and two; - and I freely admit this is a bit sad - is I am so stunned to have something new I wanted to view it in the box for a bit. This is an ideal setting for the *ist D, especially if you can get on the stage before the performance. Take a white sheet of paper (the whiter the better) on the stage and manually set the white balance for that lighting. Then, when you return to the audience, set the ISO to whatever will give you a decent shutter speed for the conditions. 1600 and 3200 may be noisy, but still a decent image. The noise can be cleaned up with some 3rd party programs if it's really objectionable, but I find it no worse than film grain. Thanks Bill, As I have the Christmas concerts coming up for all three children (!), I will have ample opportunity to try this out. Many of our relations would like the images sent by e-mail. As I'm bloody minded, I'll still take pictures with the LX/MX and send prints. Malcolm
RE: A turning point?
Herb Chong wrote: i meant maybe you opened *her* camera equipment order. LOL! That happens when my oldest MX goes walkiesalthough whatever I have, she can use (well obviously!!). Malcolm
Re: A turning point?
On 30/11/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: Last Tuesday, I received a surprise parcel, which my wife had arranged for delivery. Inside, I found a number of smaller boxes, all new Pentax items and one of them contained an *ist D. In all the time I have been interested in photography (1970), I've never bought/had a new SLR camera and have only seen them on the shelves. CONGRATS Malc. You lucky sly dog. Friday just gone, I had an immediate use for a DSLR, to take photos of my youngest in a school 'play' (she's 5 next week, so it was only a small part), but I used the MX and Chinon flash for two reasons; firstly I can use the MX to provide good results without thinking and I'd not used the *ist D before and two; - and I freely admit this is a bit sad - is I am so stunned to have something new I wanted to view it in the box for a bit. Why not? As soon as it pops out of the box, its age of innocence is over Now will it be a turning point? Yes. ENJOY. Take a couple of weeks and enjoy. Ask again in a month. But you'll need pain relief for the inane grin that will inhabit your mutton chops ! Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk
Re: A turning point?
Oh-oh! We've lost another one... vbg Seriously, Malcolm, congrats. I know you'll enjoy yourself immensely. I just figured you'd be able to hold out a bit longer...g cheers, frank The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Malcolm Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: A turning point? Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:50:01 - Last Tuesday, I received a surprise parcel, which my wife had arranged for delivery. Inside, I found a number of smaller boxes, all new Pentax items and one of them contained an *ist D. In all the time I have been interested in photography (1970), I've never bought/had a new SLR camera and have only seen them on the shelves. Friday just gone, I had an immediate use for a DSLR, to take photos of my youngest in a school 'play' (she's 5 next week, so it was only a small part), but I used the MX and Chinon flash for two reasons; firstly I can use the MX to provide good results without thinking and I'd not used the *ist D before and two; - and I freely admit this is a bit sad - is I am so stunned to have something new I wanted to view it in the box for a bit. Now will it be a turning point? So many hardened film users have turned to digital so quickly with the acquisition of such a camera. I used my LX and my 67 today.I still get great pleasure every time I use them. Malcolm _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
Re: A turning point?
I know I'm a girl, but can I marry your wife?!? Or at least get her to have a chat to my hubby? I am *green* with envy. I would have LOVED one for my son's dance concert last week!! Have fun!! tan.x. - Original Message - From: frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 7:51 AM Subject: Re: A turning point? Oh-oh! We've lost another one... vbg Seriously, Malcolm, congrats. I know you'll enjoy yourself immensely. I just figured you'd be able to hold out a bit longer...g cheers, frank The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Malcolm Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: A turning point? Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:50:01 - Last Tuesday, I received a surprise parcel, which my wife had arranged for delivery. Inside, I found a number of smaller boxes, all new Pentax items and one of them contained an *ist D. In all the time I have been interested in photography (1970), I've never bought/had a new SLR camera and have only seen them on the shelves. Friday just gone, I had an immediate use for a DSLR, to take photos of my youngest in a school 'play' (she's 5 next week, so it was only a small part), but I used the MX and Chinon flash for two reasons; firstly I can use the MX to provide good results without thinking and I'd not used the *ist D before and two; - and I freely admit this is a bit sad - is I am so stunned to have something new I wanted to view it in the box for a bit. Now will it be a turning point? So many hardened film users have turned to digital so quickly with the acquisition of such a camera. I used my LX and my 67 today.I still get great pleasure every time I use them. Malcolm _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
RE: A turning point?
-- -Original Message- -- From: Bill Owens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 11:59 AM -- -- Friday just gone, I had an immediate use for a DSLR, to -- take photos of my -- youngest in a school 'play' (she's 5 next week, so it was -- -- This is an ideal setting for the *ist D, especially if you -- can get on the -- stage before the performance. Take a white sheet of paper -- (the whiter the -- better) on the stage and manually set the white balance for -- that lighting. -- Then, when you return to the audience, set the ISO to -- whatever will give you -- a decent shutter speed for the conditions. 1600 and 3200 -- -- Bill -- Bill, I differ slightly in that I use a grey card to set my manual white balance. Something I found that worked better when I first started using the Nikon D1X and D1H. I should try a comparison using both techniques. I know that I have used a white page in the pinch and have been happy with the results. Though with some thinking on the subject it would make me think that using a grey card would allow some more lattitude in post processing... Just an idle thought, César Panama City, Florida
