Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
In this instance the Firemen and Police, who actually risk their lives in performance of the duty are exempted. . By the way there are plenty of protests against CEO's and executives compensation. Usually in stock holders meetings. The difference is that they can't hold a gun to your head and say pay up. If enough people are unhappy with how a company is run they sell their stock and the price plummets. If you don't like a companies products no one buys them and the company goes bust. It's a voluntary relationship. Being a taxpayer, (statements on the IRS forms to the contrary), is not. By the way you must have missed the protests against the executives of a number of mutual funds who had the temerity to demand that the GM bankruptcy be handled by the Standard US Code. Rather than with the special deal that was cooked up by the current administration. to reward it's supporters. On 2/27/2011 9:56 AM, frank theriault wrote: On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: Boris, No armed revolts here, but many unhappy people. The perception is that public employees - teachers, police,& firemen are retiring at 2/3 or 3/4 of annual salary as paid by the state government. Most people are not covered by such pensions and have seen their retirement 'nest egg' fall by 50% or more in the financial crisis. (Falling home prices vs fixed mortgage loans have wiped out homes as assets.) So the 'have-nots' now resent the union deals and see pensions as something they will pay increased taxes to cover in the future. These people (the unionized public employees) perform important functions in our society, and for the most part deserve their salaries and other benefits. They unionized and made their deals when times were good, and one can't blame them for holding on to them as best they can. I don't know about Chicago or elsewhere in the US, but here there has been an ongoing attack on unionized public sector workers for some time. Since government can't simply wipe out contracts already made, they now have things like hiring freezes, hire loads of part time employees (who aren't unionized) or contract out lots of work (which studies show often don't save money in the long run). Services are being trimmed and shut down to the detriment of those who can least afford it. But hey, it saves tax payers' money, so that's okay, right? Funny, but I don't see mass protests about how much CEOs and executives at car companies or banks make - or what their pension plans are worth. I'd bet it's a lot more than what the average cop or teacher makes. How many billions of government dollars went into bailing out those two industries? cheers, frank -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On 2/26/2011 10:58 PM, Brian Walters wrote: On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 21:16 -0600, "Christine Aguila" wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 Yes apparently if you serve in the Senate in Wisconsin you need a good excuse medical or compassionate, (Death in the family, that sort of thing), to be absent while while in session. According to the LA Times it''s rule 15. Rule 84 allows the members present to secure a quorum. The absent members can be compelled to appear. Since it's up to the Sargent at Arms of that body to enforce that rule, I would assume by force if necessary. Excellent. What with the situation in Libya and the Christchurch earthquake, the demonstrations in the US haven't received a lot of coverage here - at least on the few news broadcasts I watch these days. I did some googling to inform myself a bit more - one bizarre thing I found was that Wisconsin democrats have apparently gone interstate to avoid being brought to the state legislature by the State police. The report I read says "The Republican controlled Senate dispatched the state troopers to find the Democrats, but they were unsuccessful. A group of them have opted to stay in a hotel just on the other side of the state line in Illinois." Is that real? Anyway - two excellent documentary images. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On 2/28/2011 1:14 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote: GM's new Cruze is very competitive with the best of the small imports: http://www.nytimes.com/pages/automobiles/index.html Paul Over here Cruze is often seen on the street, yet it does not have the same reputation or pedigree as its Japanese or even European rivals. To that end, I think that Hyundai i30/Kia C'eed is more successful. I drove C'eed for 2.5 years - I can say about it only good things. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
It will be interesting to see how things work out for the big three over the next decade or so. Yeah - Go FORD ! Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "mike wilson" Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking On 27/02/2011 17:51, Paul Stenquist wrote: On Feb 27, 2011, at 10:37 AM, mike wilson wrote: On 27/02/2011 17:28, frank theriault wrote: On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: And Frank, I want to tell you something that will make you happy. We visited rich friends in a gated community in Naples Florida. 4 people on their block were early retirees from General Motors. Their pension benefits were capped at $72K. (I know that's a lot, but it's a lot less than they were getting.) And the highest ranked among them has already sold and move back to Michigan. They were all drawing money from 'defered compensation plans', where GM held back some salary to pay them later at a lower tax rate. Guess what. In bankruptcy, all those funds go to the creditors. It puts a 6 figure crimp in their lifestyles... Regards, Bob S. That doesn't make me particularly happy, Bob. First of all, I'm sure these people worked hard for their money, often working long hours, weekends, with many business trips and lots of pressure. I may not agree that the work they did was for the betterment of all, but they had every right to rely on agreements made with their company and to pattern their life accordingly. The fact that due to GM making bad decisions they lost their pensions or a portion thereof only means that creditors got that money - and I'm sure that banks reaped most of that benefit. I'd rather see the money in the hands of an individual than a huge faceless corporation. I don't think there's anything happy about your story. Agreed. If they had been in a union, it would hopefully not have allowed those funds to be kept in a place available to creditors. Did GM actually go bankrupt? -- GM declared bankruptcy and was reorganized as two companies: one held the bad assets, and the new GM held the good assets. It was a necessary step due to way too many dealerships that had become non performers but had franchise agreements that compelled GM to continue to keep them in business. It was also necessary due to onerous obligations to the union. Many of those agreements were made at a time when the Detroit automakers monopolized the U.S. car market. The union would strike, and the automakers would give them whatever they wanted and roll it into the price of the cars. That usually meant taking quality out. So bad management practice, at least as much as greedy unions. Now, many of GM's union obligations have been brought more in line with reality, although they are still more of a burden than other automakers have to contend with. Toyota, Honda and most other foreign automakers build cars in non-union U.S. factories, located in right-to-work states (states with laws barring compulsory union membership). The lack of union commitments on the part of other auto manufacturers made the Detroit automakers union contracts untenable if they were to compete. This is what I find hard to understand. Workers organise themselves to improve their conditions. Weekends off, paid holidays, health benefits, living wages. Management did its best to minimise those improvements and continues to do so. Yet in the USA the very people who would benefit from the organised effort are often, it seems, the ones who oppose it - the working class. They seem to have a classic death wish in their urge to participate in a race to the bottom and the people who are orchestrating the race are held up as bastions of industry, opposing some kind of socialist takeover of the American dream. Utterly bizarre to the outside, dispassionate viewer. There also seems to be a more noticable corruption problem in US unions than many other places, although the people that I talk to about it are equally vehement about corruption in politics, media, police forces and business. GM has already paid back a substantial amount of its government loans, and the government has been selling off its GM stock at a profit. The same is happening at Chrysler, although at a slower pace. The industry bailout was well planned and well executed. It saved a major U.S. industry and an entire region, and in the end, it will cost the taxpayers nothing. Paul It will be interesting to see how things work out for the big three over the next decade or so. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
All of my GMC and or Chevy trucks, 4x4, have had transmission issues, expensive ones to. It will most likely keep me from buying another, but, i do like the ride and seat in the gm'S dave On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 12:26 PM, John Sessoms wrote: > From: William Robb >> >> On 27/02/2011 2:14 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: >>> >>> > >>> > Read today's NY Times review of the Chevrolet Cruze, it puts Accord and >>> > Civic to shame. >> >> >> GM has always had a nice car off the line. What will separate the Cruze >> from the Civic is life expectancy. >> This is why I put very little stock in car tests. >> My Grand Am was a gorgeous car until about 20K Kilometres, which was the >> life expectancy of the Quad4. >> My own experience with The General has been bad enough to make buying >> anything but a GM vehicle a lifetime decision. > > Mixed review here. I've owned and driven several Chevrolet vehicles over the > years. > > Thinking back about it, the only one that was really crap was the 1980 > Chevrolet Citation. That was Chevy's first FWD vehicle and the CV-joints > were crap, plus the dealer's service didn't know a CV-joint from a hole in > the ground. Couldn't recognize the problem, so they couldn't fix it. > > Drove Chevy's before that; drove Chevy Vans after that, currently driving a > Ford. > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3472 - Release Date: 02/27/11 > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: > Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right > now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro > labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone > here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic > standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this > week. > > http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 Ooh! I do like that first one. She has such a lovely face, and it's so obviously weighed down with worry and concern. Your moment was quite decisive. -- Scott (the non-union, American-made-Nissan driving, bicycle riding, small-l libertarian) Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ __o _'\<,_ (*)/ (*) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: the UAW raises my hackles Really? I hadn't noticed... ;-) cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: > I do find it interesting that a lot of teachers buy Hondas and Toyota that > are produced in right to work states by non-union workers. There's a bit of > "do as I say, not as I do" in that kind of reasoning. Your posts absolutely reek of anti-unionism, Paul. That's fine, you don't like unions, you're entitled. But at least admit that you don't like them. The above non-empirical purely anecdotal statement doesn't prove a thing, except that you'll say just about anything to bash unions and their members. I've got news for you, Paul. I've been to the US. ~Lots~ of people drive foreign cars. I don't know how you can tell the professions or labour leanings of all those drivers. cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
From: William Robb On 27/02/2011 2:14 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: > > Read today's NY Times review of the Chevrolet Cruze, it puts Accord and Civic to shame. >> GM has always had a nice car off the line. What will separate the Cruze from the Civic is life expectancy. This is why I put very little stock in car tests. My Grand Am was a gorgeous car until about 20K Kilometres, which was the life expectancy of the Quad4. My own experience with The General has been bad enough to make buying anything but a GM vehicle a lifetime decision. Mixed review here. I've owned and driven several Chevrolet vehicles over the years. Thinking back about it, the only one that was really crap was the 1980 Chevrolet Citation. That was Chevy's first FWD vehicle and the CV-joints were crap, plus the dealer's service didn't know a CV-joint from a hole in the ground. Couldn't recognize the problem, so they couldn't fix it. Drove Chevy's before that; drove Chevy Vans after that, currently driving a Ford. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3472 - Release Date: 02/27/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On 27/02/2011 2:14 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: Read today's NY Times review of the Chevrolet Cruze, it puts Accord and Civic to shame. GM has always had a nice car off the line. What will separate the Cruze from the Civic is life expectancy. This is why I put very little stock in car tests. My Grand Am was a gorgeous car until about 20K Kilometres, which was the life expectancy of the Quad4. My own experience with The General has been bad enough to make buying anything but a GM vehicle a lifetime decision. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On 27/02/2011 1:28 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote: Let me also apologize for Frank and I hijacking your picture thread. As a retired person, I don't really have a dog in this fight. But the UAW is an old sore spot that ticks me off. I need some of Bill Robb's meds as he has been so good lately. :-) I usually just drink myself into a stupor before reading my mail. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 27, 2011, at 7:55 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: > > On Feb 27, 2011, at 6:53 PM, John Sessoms wrote: > >> From: Paul Stenquist >>> I do find it interesting that a lot of teachers buy Hondas and Toyota >>> that are produced in right to work states by non-union workers. >>> There's a bit of "do as I say, not as I do" in that kind of >>> reasoning. >>> >> >> Should we not then on the same basis question the integrity of anyone >> represented by a union who buys from the "Big Three"? > > Of course not, the non-union workers don't march and sing Solidarity Forever. >> >> The "Big Three" not only have their own factories in those "right to work" >> states, but in the Maquiladora as well. And they've been closing their >> unionized factories, moving the work to their non-union locations. > > All their U.S. plants are unionized, it's part of the agreement with the UAW. I misread your post here, John. I though you were asking about a non-union worker buying from the Detroit Three. It only makes sense that union workers would support the union represented workers of the Detroit automakers. That was my point. It used to be a given: if you were a union member, you shopped at union stores and bought union products. Now, I find that somewhat foolish, but the fervor of the marchers in Wisconsin and elsewhere leads me to believe that they would want to support their union brothers and sister. But, as I said, when it comes to purchasing automobiles, they frequently don't. >> >> Plus, it may have something to do with Hondas and Toyotas only being >> manufactured in "right to work" states. How many factories do Honda, Toyota >> and BMW have in non- "right to work" states? If you want a Honda or a >> Toyota, you buy a Honda or Toyota. > > I'd have to check to be absolutely certain, but I believe all of their U.S. > plants are in right to work states. In any case the union contract requires > that the Detroit three hire a specified number of union workers, regardless > of where the cars are built. Of course, they're all employed in the U.S., but > they are meant to counter activity at non-U.S. plants. However, because the > union has been cooperating, the automakers are giving them perks in return. > Ford announced last August that it would actually hire more union workers > than the contract required. Many of these are workers who were previously > layed off. >> >> Where the factory is located doesn't enter in to the equation any more than >> it does when you buy a vehicle from GM. > > It does if you're a staunch union supporter. >> >> Before you cast aspersions at other peoples choices, refuse to buy any >> vehicle from any manufacturer who closes a unionized plant so they could >> manufacturing of their vehicles in a non-unionized plant. >> >> > I'm certainly not required to do anything of the sort. And i will express my > opinions regardless. It's unfortunate that you always have to turn polite > debates into something personal at some point. > I've used up more than my fair share of bandwidth on this discussion. II've had my say and will now return to my regularly scheduled programming. > Paul >> >> >> >> >> - >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3470 - Release Date: 02/26/11 >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 27, 2011, at 6:53 PM, John Sessoms wrote: > From: Paul Stenquist >> I do find it interesting that a lot of teachers buy Hondas and Toyota >> that are produced in right to work states by non-union workers. >> There's a bit of "do as I say, not as I do" in that kind of >> reasoning. >> > > Should we not then on the same basis question the integrity of anyone > represented by a union who buys from the "Big Three"? Of course not, the non-union workers don't march and sing Solidarity Forever. > > The "Big Three" not only have their own factories in those "right to work" > states, but in the Maquiladora as well. And they've been closing their > unionized factories, moving the work to their non-union locations. All their U.S. plants are unionized, it's part of the agreement with the UAW. > > Plus, it may have something to do with Hondas and Toyotas only being > manufactured in "right to work" states. How many factories do Honda, Toyota > and BMW have in non- "right to work" states? If you want a Honda or a Toyota, > you buy a Honda or Toyota. I'd have to check to be absolutely certain, but I believe all of their U.S. plants are in right to work states. In any case the union contract requires that the Detroit three hire a specified number of union workers, regardless of where the cars are built. Of course, they're all employed in the U.S., but they are meant to counter activity at non-U.S. plants. However, because the union has been cooperating, the automakers are giving them perks in return. Ford announced last August that it would actually hire more union workers than the contract required. Many of these are workers who were previously layed off. > > Where the factory is located doesn't enter in to the equation any more than > it does when you buy a vehicle from GM. It does if you're a staunch union supporter. > > Before you cast aspersions at other peoples choices, refuse to buy any > vehicle from any manufacturer who closes a unionized plant so they could > manufacturing of their vehicles in a non-unionized plant. > > I'm certainly not required to do anything of the sort. And i will express my opinions regardless. It's unfortunate that you always have to turn polite debates into something personal at some point. Paul > > > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3470 - Release Date: 02/26/11 > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
From: Paul Stenquist I do find it interesting that a lot of teachers buy Hondas and Toyota that are produced in right to work states by non-union workers. There's a bit of "do as I say, not as I do" in that kind of reasoning. Should we not then on the same basis question the integrity of anyone represented by a union who buys from the "Big Three"? The "Big Three" not only have their own factories in those "right to work" states, but in the Maquiladora as well. And they've been closing their unionized factories, moving the work to their non-union locations. Plus, it may have something to do with Hondas and Toyotas only being manufactured in "right to work" states. How many factories do Honda, Toyota and BMW have in non- "right to work" states? If you want a Honda or a Toyota, you buy a Honda or Toyota. Where the factory is located doesn't enter in to the equation any more than it does when you buy a vehicle from GM. Before you cast aspersions at other peoples choices, refuse to buy any vehicle from any manufacturer who closes a unionized plant so they could manufacturing of their vehicles in a non-unionized plant. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3470 - Release Date: 02/26/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 27, 2011, at 5:44 PM, John Sessoms wrote: > From: frank theriault > >> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stenquist >> wrote: It was also necessary due to >> onerous obligations to the union. >> >> Heaven forbid we should pay workers a fair wage... >> Many of those agreements were made at a time when the Detroit automakers monopolized the U.S. car market. The union would strike, and the automakers would give them whatever they wanted and roll it into the price of the cars. That usually meant taking quality out. >> Hey, don't blame the unions for the decision of the automakers to >> make lousy cars. They ~could~ have said, "We'll just keep making the >> best cars we can, whatever the price may be (or even better, at a >> reduced profit), because the consumer doesn't mind spending a fair >> price for a quality product." >> >> But no, they thought more about short term gain than long-term >> customer satisfaction. The consumers (not such a stupid lot after >> all) voted with their feet. They bought foreign quality, even well >> after the price gap between domestic and foreign was minimal to nil. >> >> The other thing you're not factoring into the equation is how >> Detroit handled the rising price of fuel in the 70's along with >> government enforced safety and pollution standards. (which standards >> wouldn't have been necessary if Detroit had "done the right thing" >> all along and made safe, clean cars). Detroit's downfall began when >> they stopped doing what they did best (front-engined >> rear-wheel-drive vehicles) and tried to out-Japanese the Japanese >> with small cars that were simply pieces of crap. Can you say >> "Firenza"? >> > > I'll differ with you on some points here. You're blaming the engineers for > the failings of the bean counters. > > GM did have quality issues for a short time in the early 80s, but those were > fairly rapidly overcome. What they were not able to overcome was the > perception of quality issues that lingered long after GM corrected them. > > And GM's problems with rising fuel prices, safety and pollution standards > stem not from trying to "out-Japanese the Japanese" with small cars, but from > trying to avoid the standards altogether by concentrating on SUVs. > > The "light truck" segment kept GM afloat for a while because they were > subject to lesser requirements in those areas and were therefore more > profitable to manufacture. > > But when the crunch came and fuel prices spiked to the point consumers could > no longer ignore the low fuel efficiency of SUVs, GM had neither the > alternative models in the pipeline nor the experience to draw upon to make > the necessary transition. > > Compare GM to Ford, who *did* try to compete with the imports in the small to > medium size market. Despite Ford's own problems with the (temporary) collapse > of the SUV market, Ford faced neither bankruptcy, nor needed government > bail-outs because they had alternative lines in production that allowed them > to weather the storm. > > The largest segment of the "import" market is the mid-sized luxury sedan. > That's an area where GM should be able to compete. It is, after all, their > area of traditional expertise. > > And most of those "imports" are actually manufactured here in the U.S. (and > under NAFTA, Canada and Mexico). Additionally, many of the "import" > manufacturers have cooperative or co-manufacturing agreements with the U.S. > "Big Three". > > Only Fiat and Chrysler are cooperating to any significant level, and that of course is brand new. GM and Toyota abandoned their partnership effort quite a few years ago, and Ford no longer has any substantial interest in Mazda. Mazda is currently using some of the same platforms Ford used on their last generation. Ford is now a full generation ahead of Mazda in platform development. GM's new Cruze is very competitive with the best of the small imports: http://www.nytimes.com/pages/automobiles/index.html Paul > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3470 - Release Date: 02/26/11 > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
From: frank theriault On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote: It was also necessary due to onerous obligations to the union. Heaven forbid we should pay workers a fair wage... Many of those agreements were made at a time when the Detroit automakers monopolized the U.S. car market. The union would strike, and the automakers would give them whatever they wanted and roll it into the price of the cars. That usually meant taking quality out. Hey, don't blame the unions for the decision of the automakers to make lousy cars. They ~could~ have said, "We'll just keep making the best cars we can, whatever the price may be (or even better, at a reduced profit), because the consumer doesn't mind spending a fair price for a quality product." But no, they thought more about short term gain than long-term customer satisfaction. The consumers (not such a stupid lot after all) voted with their feet. They bought foreign quality, even well after the price gap between domestic and foreign was minimal to nil. The other thing you're not factoring into the equation is how Detroit handled the rising price of fuel in the 70's along with government enforced safety and pollution standards. (which standards wouldn't have been necessary if Detroit had "done the right thing" all along and made safe, clean cars). Detroit's downfall began when they stopped doing what they did best (front-engined rear-wheel-drive vehicles) and tried to out-Japanese the Japanese with small cars that were simply pieces of crap. Can you say "Firenza"? I'll differ with you on some points here. You're blaming the engineers for the failings of the bean counters. GM did have quality issues for a short time in the early 80s, but those were fairly rapidly overcome. What they were not able to overcome was the perception of quality issues that lingered long after GM corrected them. And GM's problems with rising fuel prices, safety and pollution standards stem not from trying to "out-Japanese the Japanese" with small cars, but from trying to avoid the standards altogether by concentrating on SUVs. The "light truck" segment kept GM afloat for a while because they were subject to lesser requirements in those areas and were therefore more profitable to manufacture. But when the crunch came and fuel prices spiked to the point consumers could no longer ignore the low fuel efficiency of SUVs, GM had neither the alternative models in the pipeline nor the experience to draw upon to make the necessary transition. Compare GM to Ford, who *did* try to compete with the imports in the small to medium size market. Despite Ford's own problems with the (temporary) collapse of the SUV market, Ford faced neither bankruptcy, nor needed government bail-outs because they had alternative lines in production that allowed them to weather the storm. The largest segment of the "import" market is the mid-sized luxury sedan. That's an area where GM should be able to compete. It is, after all, their area of traditional expertise. And most of those "imports" are actually manufactured here in the U.S. (and under NAFTA, Canada and Mexico). Additionally, many of the "import" manufacturers have cooperative or co-manufacturing agreements with the U.S. "Big Three". - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3470 - Release Date: 02/26/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: paw week 8--please read before looking
From: "Bob W" You do know that about 2/3 of the highest grossing US companies and 68% > of foreign companies working in the US paid virtually no tax last year? > The injustice of the situation is radically different to the > perception. Many people outside the US are astonished at the way > turkeys keep voting for Christmas. > the French have the right attitude. Start work at 35, retire at 40 and let the Germans pay for it. I wonder if I'm too old to emigrate? - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3470 - Release Date: 02/26/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
From: mike wilson On 27/02/2011 17:28, frank theriault wrote: > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: >> And Frank, >> I want to tell you something that will make you happy. >> We visited rich friends in a gated community in Naples Florida. >> 4 people on their block were early retirees from General Motors. >> Their pension benefits were capped at $72K. >> (I know that's a lot, but it's a lot less than they were getting.) >> And the highest ranked among them has already sold and move back to Michigan. >> They were all drawing money from 'defered compensation plans', >> where GM held back some salary to pay them later at a lower tax rate. >> Guess what. In bankruptcy, all those funds go to the creditors. >> It puts a 6 figure crimp in their lifestyles... >> Regards, Bob S. > > That doesn't make me particularly happy, Bob. First of all, I'm sure > these people worked hard for their money, often working long hours, > weekends, with many business trips and lots of pressure. I may not > agree that the work they did was for the betterment of all, but they > had every right to rely on agreements made with their company and to > pattern their life accordingly. > > The fact that due to GM making bad decisions they lost their pensions > or a portion thereof only means that creditors got that money - and > I'm sure that banks reaped most of that benefit. I'd rather see the > money in the hands of an individual than a huge faceless corporation. > > I don't think there's anything happy about your story. Agreed. If they had been in a union, it would hopefully not have allowed those funds to be kept in a place available to creditors. Did GM actually go bankrupt? They did. And know that the bankruptcy laws were re-written during the Bush Administration to permit corporations to use bankruptcy as a means of abrogating union contracts and pension benefits. Prior to the laws being re-written GM would have not been able to escape those obligations through bankruptcy. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3470 - Release Date: 02/26/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
From: mike wilson On 27/02/2011 15:40, Bob Sullivan wrote: > Boris, > > No armed revolts here, but many unhappy people. > The perception is that public employees - teachers, police,& firemen > are retiring at 2/3 or 3/4 of annual salary as paid by the state government. > Most people are not covered by such pensions and have seen their > retirement 'nest egg' fall by 50% or more in the financial crisis. > (Falling home prices vs fixed mortgage loans have wiped out homes as assets.) > So the 'have-nots' now resent the union deals and see pensions > as something they will pay increased taxes to cover in the future. > > The percieved injustice of the situation complicates things. > The public employee unions have been very successful negotiating with the > politicians. And the politicians have hidden that success in future IOU's, > not raising taxes to fund the future debts. The unions are often the > most powerful supporters of politicians with loose purse strings, > and the cycle continues. You do know that about 2/3 of the highest grossing US companies and 68% of foreign companies working in the US paid virtually no tax last year? The injustice of the situation is radically different to the perception. Many people outside the US are astonished at the way turkeys keep voting for Christmas. I think you mean how the "turkeys keep voting for Thanksgiving". That's the national holiday in the U.S. most closely associated with turkey dinners. But I take your point. A lot of it has to do with how elections in this country are now decided by a tiny minority of "swing" voters - voters easily swayed by a last minute advertising propaganda blitz. Our last election cycle saw an incredible influx of corporate money injected into campaigns as a result of the U.S. Supreme Court's "Citizens United" decision in January 2010. Much of that corporate money in the 2010 election cycle went into deceptive AstroTurf "grass roots" campaigns intended to hide the financier's real agenda. One of the purposes behind the current campaign of union busting is to cut off financial resources going to opponents of corporation domination. Expect to see the reintroduction of restrictive labor laws that hamper union's ability to even attempt to counter corporate campaign spending. Also, expect the disparity in tax burdens between the elites and the workers to get worse, not better. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3470 - Release Date: 02/26/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
From: frank theriault On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: > Boris, > > No armed revolts here, but many unhappy people. > The perception is that public employees - teachers, police, & firemen > are retiring at 2/3 or 3/4 of annual salary as paid by the state government. > Most people are not covered by such pensions and have seen their > retirement 'nest egg' fall by 50% or more in the financial crisis. > (Falling home prices vs fixed mortgage loans have wiped out homes as assets.) > So the 'have-nots' now resent the union deals and see pensions > as something they will pay increased taxes to cover in the future. > These people (the unionized public employees) perform important functions in our society, and for the most part deserve their salaries and other benefits. They unionized and made their deals when times were good, and one can't blame them for holding on to them as best they can. I don't know about Chicago or elsewhere in the US, but here there has been an ongoing attack on unionized public sector workers for some time. Since government can't simply wipe out contracts already made, they now have things like hiring freezes, hire loads of part time employees (who aren't unionized) or contract out lots of work (which studies show often don't save money in the long run). Services are being trimmed and shut down to the detriment of those who can least afford it. But hey, it saves tax payers' money, so that's okay, right? Funny, but I don't see mass protests about how much CEOs and executives at car companies or banks make - or what their pension plans are worth. I'd bet it's a lot more than what the average cop or teacher makes. How many billions of government dollars went into bailing out those two industries? There two things that really need to be understood about what's going on in Wisconsin: 1. Where did the "hole" in Wisconsin's budget come from? Wisconsin's needed approximately $68 billion dollars for the 2011-2012 biennium to maintain the level of state government expenditures at the 2009-2010 level. At the end of fiscal 2010, Wisconsin was looking at a short-fall in tax revenues of $2-$3 billion dollars for the 2011-2012 biennium. That is, they needed $68 billion to maintain funding levels and were expecting to collect only about $65 billion in taxes during the two year period. One of the first acts of the new Republican majority in the Wisconsin legislature this session was to force through, by a partisan majority, a corporate tax cut bill that will reduce Wisconsin tax revenues by $117 billion during that same 2011-2012 biennium. Almost the entirety of the "hole" is created by a tax give-away to the already wealthy. Now, the legislature is looking for additional spending cuts, not just cuts in state employees pension and benefits, but cuts to services to citizens (police, schools, hospitals, roads, parks, prisons ...) to cover that $117 billion corporate tax cut. 2. The public employee "unions" already agreed to wage and benefit cuts to help the state "balance" the budget; doing their part to help close the pre-existing $2-$3 billion dollar "hole". The attack on the workers' right to organize, freely associate and to negotiate collectively has no effect whatsoever of saving the state additional money, nor will it aid in any way in closing the "hole" in the state budget created by the massive corporate tax cuts already enacted this session. All it does is shift the balance of power in the workplace further in favor of the employer and against the worker. What it also does is set the stage for future legislation denying those same rights to private sector workers. And, *THAT* is the real agenda. Surely it is ironic that Wisconsin was in the forefront of the late 19th and early 20th century "Progressive" movement that directly led to workers' rights. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3470 - Release Date: 02/26/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 26, 2011, at 7:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: > Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right > now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro > labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone > here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic > standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this > week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was > constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in > the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below > the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. > Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) > > http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 I love the first shot. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 27, 2011, at 2:43 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: > Apology sincerely accepted, Bob--and no problem about the thread hijack, but > I did feel I had to step in and defend myself a little here; you'll grant me > that, yes? :-) Big cheers, Christine > They may have hijacked the thread. I buried it, and I apologize as well. But the UAW raises my hackles as well. In any case, I've had my say and will let go of this. Paul > > - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" > To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 1:28 PM > Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking > > > Christine, > > Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I was speaking about the United > Auto Workers Union and assembly line work. My sister, > daughter-in-law, nephew, and brother-in-law are all teachers. I see > how hard they work and what skills they bring to their jobs, and I > couldn't do it. > > Let me also apologize for Frank and I hijacking your picture thread. > As a retired person, I don't really have a dog in this fight. But the > UAW is an old sore spot that ticks me off. I need some of Bill Robb's > meds as he has been so good lately. :-) > > Regards, Bob S. > > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Christine Aguila > wrote: >> >> - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" >> >> >> Rather, it is a backlash against those who hold the union jobs - thru >> luck or special >> circumstances or nepotism but not thru any skill or special merit. >> The unions restrict who the high paying jobs are open to. >> >> Yea, thanks for this point, Bob! Yep, I'm just a lucky gal with no special >> skills or merit. Yep, that's me. Sheesh. C >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 27, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: > > - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" > > > Rather, it is a backlash against those who hold the union jobs - thru > luck or special > circumstances or nepotism but not thru any skill or special merit. > The unions restrict who the high paying jobs are open to. > > Yea, thanks for this point, Bob! Yep, I'm just a lucky gal with no special > skills or merit. Yep, that's me. Sheesh. C Bob was speaking of the auto unions, not teacher unions. Teachers were abused and the unions were necessary. They still are. However, I do think they have inflated some costs that most states can no longer support. The times demand some concessions. I do find it interesting that a lot of teachers buy Hondas and Toyota that are produced in right to work states by non-union workers. There's a bit of "do as I say, not as I do" in that kind of reasoning. Paul > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
From: Bob Sullivan Boris, No armed revolts here, but many unhappy people. The perception is that public employees - teachers, police, & firemen are retiring at 2/3 or 3/4 of annual salary as paid by the state government. Most people are not covered by such pensions and have seen their retirement 'nest egg' fall by 50% or more in the financial crisis. (Falling home prices vs fixed mortgage loans have wiped out homes as assets.) So the 'have-nots' now resent the union deals and see pensions as something they will pay increased taxes to cover in the future. The percieved injustice of the situation complicates things. The public employee unions have been very successful negotiating with the politicians. And the politicians have hidden that success in future IOU's, not raising taxes to fund the future debts. The unions are often the most powerful supporters of politicians with loose purse strings, and the cycle continues. From time to time, we throw out the old politicians and elect new ones. Often the new politicians have no idea how to solve the problems, but propose some outlandish remedies that make the 'have nots' feel better. After a lot of shouting and protest, the problems get sorted and painfull solutions are implemented. Beyond that, many of the public employee unions accepted "future" pension benefits in lieu of pay increases in years past. These benefits were promised to public employees in compensation for pay raises foregone. Part of the impetus behind the assault on public employee worker's rights is that stripping them is a prelude to stripping private sector workers of THEIR RIGHTS. We are moving backwards to a time of feudalism. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3470 - Release Date: 02/26/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:55 PM, frank theriault wrote: > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote: >> Frank, >> I wouldn't spin it so anti-auto maker management. > > I'm not saying that unions didn't or don't have a hand in the current > state of things, but I think it's naive to put ~all~ the blame on > unions (as I perceived had been done by Paul). Despite what you may > think, I'm not some union lackie. These top-heavy organizations often > put their ~own~ needs before those of their own workers... > >> Managers gave the union the wage and benefits packages they wanted, > > No, the unions and the companies worked out an agreement that they > ~both~ agreed on. They danced the dance, didn't they? Unions asked > high, companies responded low and they eventually met in the middle. > >> then passed the costs onto the consumers. > > While maintaining their profits, I'm sure. > >> Low priced cars like the VW Beetle made inroads in the US market. >> Customers began to vote on price and managers responded. >> Unfortunately the rush to take costs out also affected quality. > > And there's the crux. A decision was made to compromise quality. > That was a management decision. Do you really think that Ford > couldn't have made a better car than the Pinto? GM the Vega or > Firenza? You make it sound like an inevitability; it's just > "unfortunate" is all... > > NO! It was a decision to cut corners, put the consumers lives at risk > (covering up problems) and try to sell as many units as possible. > These people aren't stupid, they made decisions. > >> Eventually the foreign makers were shipping in cars created >> with better quality by employees paid a lower wage. >> High trade barriers would have been the only chance to keep >> the high US union wages, but foreign workers wanted a share of that >> prosperity. >> Why would you favor American workers over Foreign workers? :-) > > C'mon, Bob. My guess is that German workers make as much as > Americans, and did back in the 60s and 70s. People kept buying > Volkswagens and BMWs long after they were more expensive than > similarly sized American and Japanese cars. Detroit simply refused to > make a BMW 2002 when they could keep selling Dodge Darts. The BMW 2002 sold in tiny numbers in North America. While it was cute, fun to drive, and trendy, it wasn't a particularly good product. Volkswagens were a good product for the money, but with the rear engine and swing axle, they were just as dangerous as Corvairs and not very reliable. (Of course Ralph Nader didn't single them out, because they weren't built by the evil General Motors. ) But Beatles were cheap, so they were a good value for the money. The German taxpayers covered most healthcare and retirement costs for VW, so they had a huge price advantage. VW started building cars in the U.S. many years ago and many of their products are now built right here -- in non-union right to work states. Paul > > cheers, > frank > > -- > "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:27 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote: > Frank, > I wouldn't spin it so anti-auto maker management. > Managers gave the union the wage and benefits packages they wanted, > then passed the costs onto the consumers. > Low priced cars like the VW Beetle made inroads in the US market. > Customers began to vote on price and managers responded. > Unfortunately the rush to take costs out also affected quality. And the cost of doing business with heavy union obligations made it impossible to build cost competitive cars with the quality the market place required. > Eventually the foreign makers were shipping in cars created > with better quality by employees paid a lower wage. > High trade barriers would have been the only chance to keep > the high US union wages, but foreign workers wanted a share of that > prosperity. And to eliminate any possibility that the U.Sl unions might eventually insist on trade barriers, foreign automakers built plants in the U.S. in "right to work" non-union states. Their labor costs, particularly for retirees, are far lower than those of the union shops. > Why would you favor American workers over Foreign workers? :-) > Regards, Bob S. > > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:51 AM, frank theriault > wrote: >> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stenquist >> wrote: >> It was also necessary due to onerous obligations to the union. >> >> Heaven forbid we should pay workers a fair wage... >> >>> Many of those agreements were made at a time when the Detroit automakers >>> monopolized the U.S. car market. The union would strike, and the automakers >>> would give them whatever they wanted and roll it into the price of the >>> cars. That usually meant taking quality out. >> >> Hey, don't blame the unions for the decision of the automakers to make >> lousy cars. They ~could~ have said, "We'll just keep making the best >> cars we can, whatever the price may be (or even better, at a reduced >> profit), because the consumer doesn't mind spending a fair price for a >> quality product." >> >> But no, they thought more about short term gain than long-term >> customer satisfaction. The consumers (not such a stupid lot after >> all) voted with their feet. They bought foreign quality, even well >> after the price gap between domestic and foreign was minimal to nil. >> >> The other thing you're not factoring into the equation is how Detroit >> handled the rising price of fuel in the 70's along with government >> enforced safety and pollution standards. (which standards wouldn't >> have been necessary if Detroit had "done the right thing" all along >> and made safe, clean cars). Detroit's downfall began when they >> stopped doing what they did best (front-engined rear-wheel-drive >> vehicles) and tried to out-Japanese the Japanese with small cars that >> were simply pieces of crap. Can you say "Firenza"? >> >> Those were management decisions, not union decisions. >> >> The unions didn't kill Detroit (as we once knew it), Detroit did. >> >> cheers, >> frank >> >> -- >> "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 27, 2011, at 12:21 PM, mike wilson wrote: > On 27/02/2011 17:51, Paul Stenquist wrote: >> >> On Feb 27, 2011, at 10:37 AM, mike wilson wrote: >> >>> On 27/02/2011 17:28, frank theriault wrote: On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: > And Frank, > I want to tell you something that will make you happy. > We visited rich friends in a gated community in Naples Florida. > 4 people on their block were early retirees from General Motors. > Their pension benefits were capped at $72K. > (I know that's a lot, but it's a lot less than they were getting.) > And the highest ranked among them has already sold and move back to > Michigan. > They were all drawing money from 'defered compensation plans', > where GM held back some salary to pay them later at a lower tax rate. > Guess what. In bankruptcy, all those funds go to the creditors. > It puts a 6 figure crimp in their lifestyles... > Regards, Bob S. That doesn't make me particularly happy, Bob. First of all, I'm sure these people worked hard for their money, often working long hours, weekends, with many business trips and lots of pressure. I may not agree that the work they did was for the betterment of all, but they had every right to rely on agreements made with their company and to pattern their life accordingly. The fact that due to GM making bad decisions they lost their pensions or a portion thereof only means that creditors got that money - and I'm sure that banks reaped most of that benefit. I'd rather see the money in the hands of an individual than a huge faceless corporation. I don't think there's anything happy about your story. >>> >>> Agreed. If they had been in a union, it would hopefully not have allowed >>> those funds to be kept in a place available to creditors. Did GM actually >>> go bankrupt? >>> >>> -- >> GM declared bankruptcy and was reorganized as two companies: one held the >> bad assets, and the new GM held the good assets. It was a necessary step due >> to way too many dealerships that had become non performers but had franchise >> agreements that compelled GM to continue to keep them in business. It was >> also necessary due to onerous obligations to the union. Many of those >> agreements were made at a time when the Detroit automakers monopolized the >> U.S. car market. The union would strike, and the automakers would give them >> whatever they wanted and roll it into the price of the cars. That usually >> meant taking quality out. > > So bad management practice, at least as much as greedy unions. Bad management? Some of those strikes went on for months. The unions held a gun to the head of the auto industry. > >> >> Now, many of GM's union obligations have been brought more in line with >> reality, although they are still more of a burden than other automakers have >> to contend with. Toyota, Honda and most other foreign automakers build cars >> in non-union U.S. factories, located in right-to-work states (states with >> laws barring compulsory union membership). The lack of union commitments on >> the part of other auto manufacturers made the Detroit automakers union >> contracts untenable if they were to compete. > > This is what I find hard to understand. Workers organise themselves to > improve their conditions. Weekends off, paid holidays, health benefits, > living wages. Management did its best to minimise those improvements and > continues to do so. Yet in the USA the very people who would benefit from > the organised effort are often, it seems, the ones who oppose it - the > working class. They seem to have a classic death wish in their urge to > participate in a race to the bottom and the people who are orchestrating the > race are held up as bastions of industry, opposing some kind of socialist > takeover of the American dream. Utterly bizarre to the outside, > dispassionate viewer. > > There also seems to be a more noticable corruption problem in US unions than > many other places, although the people that I talk to about it are equally > vehement about corruption in politics, media, police forces and business. Unions literally became management in the auto industry because they held all the cards. GM's reorganization gave the union a stake in the company. If the company is not profitable and competitive, the union workers lose. That has helped change things. Now some of the newly reorganized plants allow a second level of workers who earn salaries comparable to what Toyota and Honda workers make. The older workers are still grandfathered into much larger salaries and benefits, but there is some balance and hope for the future. The small GM car that will replace Aveo is being built at the Lake Orion, Michigan plant under such an agreement. Some tax breaks from the state and township will help make it work
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 27, 2011, at 12:51 PM, frank theriault wrote: > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stenquist > wrote: > It was also necessary due to onerous obligations to the union. > > Heaven forbid we should pay workers a fair wage... > >> Many of those agreements were made at a time when the Detroit automakers >> monopolized the U.S. car market. The union would strike, and the automakers >> would give them whatever they wanted and roll it into the price of the cars. >> That usually meant taking quality out. > > Hey, don't blame the unions for the decision of the automakers to make > lousy cars. They ~could~ have said, "We'll just keep making the best > cars we can, whatever the price may be (or even better, at a reduced > profit), because the consumer doesn't mind spending a fair price for a > quality product." Not with the added cost of the union contracts. They still had to compete with each other, and price is always a competitive point. The unions bear much responsibility for the demise of the U.S. auto industry. But they're cooperating now, at least to a certain extent. They had no choice. it was play ball or go home. > > But no, they thought more about short term gain than long-term > customer satisfaction. The consumers (not such a stupid lot after > all) voted with their feet. They bought foreign quality, even well > after the price gap between domestic and foreign was minimal to nil. And the foreign makers were able to provide more content, because they built their cars in non-union states. Still do. It's funny that the "progressives" who tear their hair out when a governor tries to rein in public service unions, generally prefer cars made in right to work states. Hondas and Toyotas, made by non-union workers are the PC cars of choice. > > The other thing you're not factoring into the equation is how Detroit > handled the rising price of fuel in the 70's along with government > enforced safety and pollution standards. (which standards wouldn't > have been necessary if Detroit had "done the right thing" all along > and made safe, clean cars). Detroit's downfall began when they > stopped doing what they did best (front-engined rear-wheel-drive > vehicles) and tried to out-Japanese the Japanese with small cars that > were simply pieces of crap. Can you say "Firenza"? Read today's NY Times review of the Chevrolet Cruze, it puts Accord and Civic to shame. > > Those were management decisions, not union decisions. > > The unions didn't kill Detroit (as we once knew it), Detroit did. Until last year, GM was spending more for pensions and retiree health care than it was spending on product development. It had to. It was in the contract. And they were spending abotu 1000% more than Toyota or Honda. That's certain death. > > cheers, > frank > > -- > "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Apology sincerely accepted, Bob--and no problem about the thread hijack, but I did feel I had to step in and defend myself a little here; you'll grant me that, yes? :-) Big cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 1:28 PM Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking Christine, Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I was speaking about the United Auto Workers Union and assembly line work. My sister, daughter-in-law, nephew, and brother-in-law are all teachers. I see how hard they work and what skills they bring to their jobs, and I couldn't do it. Let me also apologize for Frank and I hijacking your picture thread. As a retired person, I don't really have a dog in this fight. But the UAW is an old sore spot that ticks me off. I need some of Bill Robb's meds as he has been so good lately. :-) Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" Rather, it is a backlash against those who hold the union jobs - thru luck or special circumstances or nepotism but not thru any skill or special merit. The unions restrict who the high paying jobs are open to. Yea, thanks for this point, Bob! Yep, I'm just a lucky gal with no special skills or merit. Yep, that's me. Sheesh. C -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Christine, Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I was speaking about the United Auto Workers Union and assembly line work. My sister, daughter-in-law, nephew, and brother-in-law are all teachers. I see how hard they work and what skills they bring to their jobs, and I couldn't do it. Let me also apologize for Frank and I hijacking your picture thread. As a retired person, I don't really have a dog in this fight. But the UAW is an old sore spot that ticks me off. I need some of Bill Robb's meds as he has been so good lately. :-) Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: > > - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" > > > Rather, it is a backlash against those who hold the union jobs - thru > luck or special > circumstances or nepotism but not thru any skill or special merit. > The unions restrict who the high paying jobs are open to. > > Yea, thanks for this point, Bob! Yep, I'm just a lucky gal with no special > skills or merit. Yep, that's me. Sheesh. C > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Frank, The VW made the first inroads, but low wage car companies turned the market. It's not the BMW or Mercedes that was competing with the Dodge Dart. And now the Korean car companies are undercutting all the other makers. I don't hold the auto company's management blameless in all this. They were the willing participants who just passed the problems onto the next generation. I'll leave it for others more knowledgable to review the cost per hour of union vs non-union work in cars. Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 12:55 PM, frank theriault wrote: > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote: >> Frank, >> I wouldn't spin it so anti-auto maker management. > > I'm not saying that unions didn't or don't have a hand in the current > state of things, but I think it's naive to put ~all~ the blame on > unions (as I perceived had been done by Paul). Despite what you may > think, I'm not some union lackie. These top-heavy organizations often > put their ~own~ needs before those of their own workers... > >> Managers gave the union the wage and benefits packages they wanted, > > No, the unions and the companies worked out an agreement that they > ~both~ agreed on. They danced the dance, didn't they? Unions asked > high, companies responded low and they eventually met in the middle. > >> then passed the costs onto the consumers. > > While maintaining their profits, I'm sure. > >> Low priced cars like the VW Beetle made inroads in the US market. >> Customers began to vote on price and managers responded. >> Unfortunately the rush to take costs out also affected quality. > > And there's the crux. A decision was made to compromise quality. > That was a management decision. Do you really think that Ford > couldn't have made a better car than the Pinto? GM the Vega or > Firenza? You make it sound like an inevitability; it's just > "unfortunate" is all... > > NO! It was a decision to cut corners, put the consumers lives at risk > (covering up problems) and try to sell as many units as possible. > These people aren't stupid, they made decisions. > >> Eventually the foreign makers were shipping in cars created >> with better quality by employees paid a lower wage. >> High trade barriers would have been the only chance to keep >> the high US union wages, but foreign workers wanted a share of that >> prosperity. >> Why would you favor American workers over Foreign workers? :-) > > C'mon, Bob. My guess is that German workers make as much as > Americans, and did back in the 60s and 70s. People kept buying > Volkswagens and BMWs long after they were more expensive than > similarly sized American and Japanese cars. Detroit simply refused to > make a BMW 2002 when they could keep selling Dodge Darts. > > cheers, > frank > > -- > "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
- Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" Rather, it is a backlash against those who hold the union jobs - thru luck or special circumstances or nepotism but not thru any skill or special merit. The unions restrict who the high paying jobs are open to. Yea, thanks for this point, Bob! Yep, I'm just a lucky gal with no special skills or merit. Yep, that's me. Sheesh. C -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Mike, This is again a case of the 'Haves' vs the 'Have-nots'. Only a small portion of our population is unionized in the USA. The auto unions were the most effective for their members and extracted dream wages and benefits from management. People vied for jobs on the auto assembly line, mindless repetitive jobs. Their wage and benefits packages set the goal for everybody else to strive for. It was more financially rewarding than going to college and becoming a teacher or engineer. People waited to get on the job with a union in an auto plant. Now the 'Have-nots' are looking around saying 'Screw them!' I don't see it as opposition to improved wages and benefits for the working public. Rather, it is a backlash against those who hold the union jobs - thru luck or special circumstances or nepotism but not thru any skill or special merit. The unions restrict who the high paying jobs are open to. Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:21 AM, mike wilson wrote: > On 27/02/2011 17:51, Paul Stenquist wrote: >> >> On Feb 27, 2011, at 10:37 AM, mike wilson wrote: >> >>> On 27/02/2011 17:28, frank theriault wrote: On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: > > And Frank, > I want to tell you something that will make you happy. > We visited rich friends in a gated community in Naples Florida. > 4 people on their block were early retirees from General Motors. > Their pension benefits were capped at $72K. > (I know that's a lot, but it's a lot less than they were getting.) > And the highest ranked among them has already sold and move back to > Michigan. > They were all drawing money from 'defered compensation plans', > where GM held back some salary to pay them later at a lower tax rate. > Guess what. In bankruptcy, all those funds go to the creditors. > It puts a 6 figure crimp in their lifestyles... > Regards, Bob S. That doesn't make me particularly happy, Bob. First of all, I'm sure these people worked hard for their money, often working long hours, weekends, with many business trips and lots of pressure. I may not agree that the work they did was for the betterment of all, but they had every right to rely on agreements made with their company and to pattern their life accordingly. The fact that due to GM making bad decisions they lost their pensions or a portion thereof only means that creditors got that money - and I'm sure that banks reaped most of that benefit. I'd rather see the money in the hands of an individual than a huge faceless corporation. I don't think there's anything happy about your story. >>> >>> Agreed. If they had been in a union, it would hopefully not have allowed >>> those funds to be kept in a place available to creditors. Did GM actually >>> go bankrupt? >>> >>> -- >> >> GM declared bankruptcy and was reorganized as two companies: one held the >> bad assets, and the new GM held the good assets. It was a necessary step due >> to way too many dealerships that had become non performers but had franchise >> agreements that compelled GM to continue to keep them in business. It was >> also necessary due to onerous obligations to the union. Many of those >> agreements were made at a time when the Detroit automakers monopolized the >> U.S. car market. The union would strike, and the automakers would give them >> whatever they wanted and roll it into the price of the cars. That usually >> meant taking quality out. > > So bad management practice, at least as much as greedy unions. > >> >> Now, many of GM's union obligations have been brought more in line with >> reality, although they are still more of a burden than other automakers have >> to contend with. Toyota, Honda and most other foreign automakers build cars >> in non-union U.S. factories, located in right-to-work states (states with >> laws barring compulsory union membership). The lack of union commitments on >> the part of other auto manufacturers made the Detroit automakers union >> contracts untenable if they were to compete. > > This is what I find hard to understand. Workers organise themselves to > improve their conditions. Weekends off, paid holidays, health benefits, > living wages. Management did its best to minimise those improvements and > continues to do so. Yet in the USA the very people who would benefit from > the organised effort are often, it seems, the ones who oppose it - the > working class. They seem to have a classic death wish in their urge to > participate in a race to the bottom and the people who are orchestrating the > race are held up as bastions of industry, opposing some kind of socialist > takeover of the American dream. Utterly bizarre to the outside, > dispassionate viewer. > > There also seems to be a more noticable corruption problem in US unions than > many other places, although the people that I talk to about it are equally > vehement abo
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote: > Frank, > I wouldn't spin it so anti-auto maker management. I'm not saying that unions didn't or don't have a hand in the current state of things, but I think it's naive to put ~all~ the blame on unions (as I perceived had been done by Paul). Despite what you may think, I'm not some union lackie. These top-heavy organizations often put their ~own~ needs before those of their own workers... > Managers gave the union the wage and benefits packages they wanted, No, the unions and the companies worked out an agreement that they ~both~ agreed on. They danced the dance, didn't they? Unions asked high, companies responded low and they eventually met in the middle. > then passed the costs onto the consumers. While maintaining their profits, I'm sure. > Low priced cars like the VW Beetle made inroads in the US market. > Customers began to vote on price and managers responded. > Unfortunately the rush to take costs out also affected quality. And there's the crux. A decision was made to compromise quality. That was a management decision. Do you really think that Ford couldn't have made a better car than the Pinto? GM the Vega or Firenza? You make it sound like an inevitability; it's just "unfortunate" is all... NO! It was a decision to cut corners, put the consumers lives at risk (covering up problems) and try to sell as many units as possible. These people aren't stupid, they made decisions. > Eventually the foreign makers were shipping in cars created > with better quality by employees paid a lower wage. > High trade barriers would have been the only chance to keep > the high US union wages, but foreign workers wanted a share of that > prosperity. > Why would you favor American workers over Foreign workers? :-) C'mon, Bob. My guess is that German workers make as much as Americans, and did back in the 60s and 70s. People kept buying Volkswagens and BMWs long after they were more expensive than similarly sized American and Japanese cars. Detroit simply refused to make a BMW 2002 when they could keep selling Dodge Darts. cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Frank, I wouldn't spin it so anti-auto maker management. Managers gave the union the wage and benefits packages they wanted, then passed the costs onto the consumers. Low priced cars like the VW Beetle made inroads in the US market. Customers began to vote on price and managers responded. Unfortunately the rush to take costs out also affected quality. Eventually the foreign makers were shipping in cars created with better quality by employees paid a lower wage. High trade barriers would have been the only chance to keep the high US union wages, but foreign workers wanted a share of that prosperity. Why would you favor American workers over Foreign workers? :-) Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:51 AM, frank theriault wrote: > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stenquist > wrote: > It was also necessary due to onerous obligations to the union. > > Heaven forbid we should pay workers a fair wage... > >>Many of those agreements were made at a time when the Detroit automakers >>monopolized the U.S. car market. The union would strike, and the automakers >>would give them whatever they wanted and roll it into the price of the cars. >>That usually meant taking quality out. > > Hey, don't blame the unions for the decision of the automakers to make > lousy cars. They ~could~ have said, "We'll just keep making the best > cars we can, whatever the price may be (or even better, at a reduced > profit), because the consumer doesn't mind spending a fair price for a > quality product." > > But no, they thought more about short term gain than long-term > customer satisfaction. The consumers (not such a stupid lot after > all) voted with their feet. They bought foreign quality, even well > after the price gap between domestic and foreign was minimal to nil. > > The other thing you're not factoring into the equation is how Detroit > handled the rising price of fuel in the 70's along with government > enforced safety and pollution standards. (which standards wouldn't > have been necessary if Detroit had "done the right thing" all along > and made safe, clean cars). Detroit's downfall began when they > stopped doing what they did best (front-engined rear-wheel-drive > vehicles) and tried to out-Japanese the Japanese with small cars that > were simply pieces of crap. Can you say "Firenza"? > > Those were management decisions, not union decisions. > > The unions didn't kill Detroit (as we once knew it), Detroit did. > > cheers, > frank > > -- > "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On 27/02/2011 17:51, Paul Stenquist wrote: On Feb 27, 2011, at 10:37 AM, mike wilson wrote: On 27/02/2011 17:28, frank theriault wrote: On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: And Frank, I want to tell you something that will make you happy. We visited rich friends in a gated community in Naples Florida. 4 people on their block were early retirees from General Motors. Their pension benefits were capped at $72K. (I know that's a lot, but it's a lot less than they were getting.) And the highest ranked among them has already sold and move back to Michigan. They were all drawing money from 'defered compensation plans', where GM held back some salary to pay them later at a lower tax rate. Guess what. In bankruptcy, all those funds go to the creditors. It puts a 6 figure crimp in their lifestyles... Regards, Bob S. That doesn't make me particularly happy, Bob. First of all, I'm sure these people worked hard for their money, often working long hours, weekends, with many business trips and lots of pressure. I may not agree that the work they did was for the betterment of all, but they had every right to rely on agreements made with their company and to pattern their life accordingly. The fact that due to GM making bad decisions they lost their pensions or a portion thereof only means that creditors got that money - and I'm sure that banks reaped most of that benefit. I'd rather see the money in the hands of an individual than a huge faceless corporation. I don't think there's anything happy about your story. Agreed. If they had been in a union, it would hopefully not have allowed those funds to be kept in a place available to creditors. Did GM actually go bankrupt? -- GM declared bankruptcy and was reorganized as two companies: one held the bad assets, and the new GM held the good assets. It was a necessary step due to way too many dealerships that had become non performers but had franchise agreements that compelled GM to continue to keep them in business. It was also necessary due to onerous obligations to the union. Many of those agreements were made at a time when the Detroit automakers monopolized the U.S. car market. The union would strike, and the automakers would give them whatever they wanted and roll it into the price of the cars. That usually meant taking quality out. So bad management practice, at least as much as greedy unions. Now, many of GM's union obligations have been brought more in line with reality, although they are still more of a burden than other automakers have to contend with. Toyota, Honda and most other foreign automakers build cars in non-union U.S. factories, located in right-to-work states (states with laws barring compulsory union membership). The lack of union commitments on the part of other auto manufacturers made the Detroit automakers union contracts untenable if they were to compete. This is what I find hard to understand. Workers organise themselves to improve their conditions. Weekends off, paid holidays, health benefits, living wages. Management did its best to minimise those improvements and continues to do so. Yet in the USA the very people who would benefit from the organised effort are often, it seems, the ones who oppose it - the working class. They seem to have a classic death wish in their urge to participate in a race to the bottom and the people who are orchestrating the race are held up as bastions of industry, opposing some kind of socialist takeover of the American dream. Utterly bizarre to the outside, dispassionate viewer. There also seems to be a more noticable corruption problem in US unions than many other places, although the people that I talk to about it are equally vehement about corruption in politics, media, police forces and business. GM has already paid back a substantial amount of its government loans, and the government has been selling off its GM stock at a profit. The same is happening at Chrysler, although at a slower pace. The industry bailout was well planned and well executed. It saved a major U.S. industry and an entire region, and in the end, it will cost the taxpayers nothing. Paul It will be interesting to see how things work out for the big three over the next decade or so. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote: It was also necessary due to onerous obligations to the union. Heaven forbid we should pay workers a fair wage... >Many of those agreements were made at a time when the Detroit automakers >monopolized the U.S. car market. The union would strike, and the automakers >would give them whatever they wanted and roll it into the price of the cars. >That usually meant taking quality out. Hey, don't blame the unions for the decision of the automakers to make lousy cars. They ~could~ have said, "We'll just keep making the best cars we can, whatever the price may be (or even better, at a reduced profit), because the consumer doesn't mind spending a fair price for a quality product." But no, they thought more about short term gain than long-term customer satisfaction. The consumers (not such a stupid lot after all) voted with their feet. They bought foreign quality, even well after the price gap between domestic and foreign was minimal to nil. The other thing you're not factoring into the equation is how Detroit handled the rising price of fuel in the 70's along with government enforced safety and pollution standards. (which standards wouldn't have been necessary if Detroit had "done the right thing" all along and made safe, clean cars). Detroit's downfall began when they stopped doing what they did best (front-engined rear-wheel-drive vehicles) and tried to out-Japanese the Japanese with small cars that were simply pieces of crap. Can you say "Firenza"? Those were management decisions, not union decisions. The unions didn't kill Detroit (as we once knew it), Detroit did. cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 27, 2011, at 10:37 AM, mike wilson wrote: > On 27/02/2011 17:28, frank theriault wrote: >> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: >>> And Frank, >>> I want to tell you something that will make you happy. >>> We visited rich friends in a gated community in Naples Florida. >>> 4 people on their block were early retirees from General Motors. >>> Their pension benefits were capped at $72K. >>> (I know that's a lot, but it's a lot less than they were getting.) >>> And the highest ranked among them has already sold and move back to >>> Michigan. >>> They were all drawing money from 'defered compensation plans', >>> where GM held back some salary to pay them later at a lower tax rate. >>> Guess what. In bankruptcy, all those funds go to the creditors. >>> It puts a 6 figure crimp in their lifestyles... >>> Regards, Bob S. >> >> That doesn't make me particularly happy, Bob. First of all, I'm sure >> these people worked hard for their money, often working long hours, >> weekends, with many business trips and lots of pressure. I may not >> agree that the work they did was for the betterment of all, but they >> had every right to rely on agreements made with their company and to >> pattern their life accordingly. >> >> The fact that due to GM making bad decisions they lost their pensions >> or a portion thereof only means that creditors got that money - and >> I'm sure that banks reaped most of that benefit. I'd rather see the >> money in the hands of an individual than a huge faceless corporation. >> >> I don't think there's anything happy about your story. > > Agreed. If they had been in a union, it would hopefully not have allowed > those funds to be kept in a place available to creditors. Did GM actually go > bankrupt? > > -- GM declared bankruptcy and was reorganized as two companies: one held the bad assets, and the new GM held the good assets. It was a necessary step due to way too many dealerships that had become non performers but had franchise agreements that compelled GM to continue to keep them in business. It was also necessary due to onerous obligations to the union. Many of those agreements were made at a time when the Detroit automakers monopolized the U.S. car market. The union would strike, and the automakers would give them whatever they wanted and roll it into the price of the cars. That usually meant taking quality out. Now, many of GM's union obligations have been brought more in line with reality, although they are still more of a burden than other automakers have to contend with. Toyota, Honda and most other foreign automakers build cars in non-union U.S. factories, located in right-to-work states (states with laws barring compulsory union membership). The lack of union commitments on the part of other auto manufacturers made the Detroit automakers union contracts untenable if they were to compete. GM has already paid back a substantial amount of its government loans, and the government has been selling off its GM stock at a profit. The same is happening at Chrysler, although at a slower pace. The industry bailout was well planned and well executed. It saved a major U.S. industry and an entire region, and in the end, it will cost the taxpayers nothing. Paul > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Mike, GM did go bankrupt. US tax laws structured how the funds were kept. (Yes, we'll allow these tax breaks for your higher paid individuals, but the money will be co-mingled with all other corporate assets.) Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:37 AM, mike wilson wrote: > On 27/02/2011 17:28, frank theriault wrote: >> >> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bob Sullivan >> wrote: >>> >>> And Frank, >>> I want to tell you something that will make you happy. >>> We visited rich friends in a gated community in Naples Florida. >>> 4 people on their block were early retirees from General Motors. >>> Their pension benefits were capped at $72K. >>> (I know that's a lot, but it's a lot less than they were getting.) >>> And the highest ranked among them has already sold and move back to >>> Michigan. >>> They were all drawing money from 'defered compensation plans', >>> where GM held back some salary to pay them later at a lower tax rate. >>> Guess what. In bankruptcy, all those funds go to the creditors. >>> It puts a 6 figure crimp in their lifestyles... >>> Regards, Bob S. >> >> That doesn't make me particularly happy, Bob. First of all, I'm sure >> these people worked hard for their money, often working long hours, >> weekends, with many business trips and lots of pressure. I may not >> agree that the work they did was for the betterment of all, but they >> had every right to rely on agreements made with their company and to >> pattern their life accordingly. >> >> The fact that due to GM making bad decisions they lost their pensions >> or a portion thereof only means that creditors got that money - and >> I'm sure that banks reaped most of that benefit. I'd rather see the >> money in the hands of an individual than a huge faceless corporation. >> >> I don't think there's anything happy about your story. > > Agreed. If they had been in a union, it would hopefully not have allowed > those funds to be kept in a place available to creditors. Did GM actually > go bankrupt? > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Bob W wrote: > the French have the right attitude. Start work at 35, retire at 40 and let > the Germans pay for it. ...and drink lots of wine... ;-) cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: paw week 8--please read before looking
> You do know that about 2/3 of the highest grossing US companies and 68% > of foreign companies working in the US paid virtually no tax last year? > The injustice of the situation is radically different to the > perception. Many people outside the US are astonished at the way > turkeys keep voting for Christmas. > the French have the right attitude. Start work at 35, retire at 40 and let the Germans pay for it. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Thanks, Bob. Stan does make some good points. Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 10:26 AM Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking Christine, I do like Stan's choices better than yours. (Well they're all your choices aren't they...) Thanks for taking us to the protest! Regards, Bob S. On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Stan Halpin wrote: Very nice! Though I don't much care for the second - too blah. I think either of the below from your larger set, particularly the second one, is stronger. In fact, I think 7155 is the best overall. What strikes me (pun somewhat unintentional) about 7155 is that it shows the crowd, passion, action, but doesn't blatantly identify the issue(s). Most of the others are good record shots, this one is a strong generic "protest" shot that will live after the current flapdoodle is resolved one way or another. IMVHO (No, I am not suggesting that the protests are nonsense, but rather that the governor is purposely stirring up a fuss in order to slip something else by while people are looking the other way. What is he going to do next, call out the Pinkertons?) [Pardon the obscure reference to 130-year-old events in America's struggle for balance between worker dignity and corporate greed.] http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP3266_large.html or http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP7155_large.html stan On Feb 26, 2011, at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Thanks, Dave! Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: "David J Brooks" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 8:34 AM Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking I like them both, however i really like the first shot. Great detail and emotion here. Dave On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Thanks, Jack! Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: "Jack Davis" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 7:37 AM Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking Really nicely caught, Christine! Especially like #1. Jack --- On Sat, 2/26/11, Christine Aguila wrote: From: Christine Aguila Subject: paw week 8--please read before looking To: pdml@pdml.net Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 7:16 PM Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
- Original Message - From: "Boris Liberman" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 2:23 AM Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking Despite the fact that you eventually turned demonstrator, you did an excellent job as a photographer, Christine. Thanks, Boris. The my hood on my DA* 50-135mm is not working correctly, so it sometimes falls off the lens. Everytime I started shouting and chanting with the crowd, I'd soon discover the hood had fallen off, and I'd panic, then have to find it. Fortunately, I found it both times it fell off. Time for a new hood, I'd say. Cheers, Christine -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On 27/02/2011 17:28, frank theriault wrote: On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: And Frank, I want to tell you something that will make you happy. We visited rich friends in a gated community in Naples Florida. 4 people on their block were early retirees from General Motors. Their pension benefits were capped at $72K. (I know that's a lot, but it's a lot less than they were getting.) And the highest ranked among them has already sold and move back to Michigan. They were all drawing money from 'defered compensation plans', where GM held back some salary to pay them later at a lower tax rate. Guess what. In bankruptcy, all those funds go to the creditors. It puts a 6 figure crimp in their lifestyles... Regards, Bob S. That doesn't make me particularly happy, Bob. First of all, I'm sure these people worked hard for their money, often working long hours, weekends, with many business trips and lots of pressure. I may not agree that the work they did was for the betterment of all, but they had every right to rely on agreements made with their company and to pattern their life accordingly. The fact that due to GM making bad decisions they lost their pensions or a portion thereof only means that creditors got that money - and I'm sure that banks reaped most of that benefit. I'd rather see the money in the hands of an individual than a huge faceless corporation. I don't think there's anything happy about your story. Agreed. If they had been in a union, it would hopefully not have allowed those funds to be kept in a place available to creditors. Did GM actually go bankrupt? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Thanks, Chris! This is so interesting that 7155 is preferred among some; it's a shot that nagged at me when going through the frames, so I included it. Glad I did. Thanks Chris! Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: "Chris Mitchell" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 2:10 AM Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking That's a really good set Christine. Your first choice is a good one, but I think this one is much more powerful than your second choice: http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP7155_large.html Chris On 27 February 2011 03:16, Christine Aguila wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Thanks, Frank. Yep, the emotion that frame conveys is what caught my eye. Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: "frank theriault" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 10:28 PM Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 I especially like the first shot. Depicts her emotions and feelings wonderfully. cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Thanks Ann & Stan: I'm considering doing a BW conversion on 7155 and then a print--just to see what it would look like--that shot intrigued me as well--though part of me feels it's kind of a messy composition--to my eye anyway--I'm wondering if a Bw conversition might simplfy the frame, perceptually anyway. I agree 3266 is acceptable in terms of composition, but it leaves me flat emotionally and I think the color balance needs to be tweaked a bit and some curves tweaking might be needed as well. I'll know for sure once I print out the contact sheets. Thanks for the great feedback, Ann and Stan! Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: "Ann Sanfedele" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 10:24 PM Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking Stan Halpin wrote: Very nice! Though I don't much care for the second - too blah. I think either of the below from your larger set, particularly the second one, is stronger. In fact, I think 7155 is the best overall. What strikes me (pun somewhat unintentional) about 7155 is that it shows the crowd, passion, action, but doesn't blatantly identify the issue(s). Most of the others are good record shots, this one is a strong generic "protest" shot that will live after the current flapdoodle is resolved one way or another. IMVHO (No, I am not suggesting that the protests are nonsense, but rather that the governor is purposely stirring up a fuss in order to slip something else by while people are looking the other way. What is he going to do next, call out the Pinkertons?) [Pardon the obscure reference to 130-year-old events in America's struggle for balance between worker dignity and corporate greed.] http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP3266_large.html or http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP7155_large.html stan Christine I really like what Stan picked too... but more the first than the second... though the point about its generic one is well taken. lots of good shots here... but IGP3266 is really handsome graphically. ann On Feb 26, 2011, at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: > And Frank, > I want to tell you something that will make you happy. > We visited rich friends in a gated community in Naples Florida. > 4 people on their block were early retirees from General Motors. > Their pension benefits were capped at $72K. > (I know that's a lot, but it's a lot less than they were getting.) > And the highest ranked among them has already sold and move back to Michigan. > They were all drawing money from 'defered compensation plans', > where GM held back some salary to pay them later at a lower tax rate. > Guess what. In bankruptcy, all those funds go to the creditors. > It puts a 6 figure crimp in their lifestyles... > Regards, Bob S. That doesn't make me particularly happy, Bob. First of all, I'm sure these people worked hard for their money, often working long hours, weekends, with many business trips and lots of pressure. I may not agree that the work they did was for the betterment of all, but they had every right to rely on agreements made with their company and to pattern their life accordingly. The fact that due to GM making bad decisions they lost their pensions or a portion thereof only means that creditors got that money - and I'm sure that banks reaped most of that benefit. I'd rather see the money in the hands of an individual than a huge faceless corporation. I don't think there's anything happy about your story. cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Christine, I do like Stan's choices better than yours. (Well they're all your choices aren't they...) Thanks for taking us to the protest! Regards, Bob S. On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Stan Halpin wrote: > Very nice! Though I don't much care for the second - too blah. I think > either of the below from your larger set, particularly the second one, is > stronger. In fact, I think 7155 is the best overall. What strikes me (pun > somewhat unintentional) about 7155 is that it shows the crowd, passion, > action, but doesn't blatantly identify the issue(s). Most of the others are > good record shots, this one is a strong generic "protest" shot that will live > after the current flapdoodle is resolved one way or another. IMVHO (No, I am > not suggesting that the protests are nonsense, but rather that the governor > is purposely stirring up a fuss in order to slip something else by while > people are looking the other way. What is he going to do next, call out the > Pinkertons?) [Pardon the obscure reference to 130-year-old events in > America's struggle for balance between worker dignity and corporate greed.] > > http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP3266_large.html > or > http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP7155_large.html > > stan > > On Feb 26, 2011, at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: > >> Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right >> now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro >> labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone >> here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic >> standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this >> week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was >> constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in >> the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link >> below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's >> events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) >> >> http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
And Frank, I want to tell you something that will make you happy. We visited rich friends in a gated community in Naples Florida. 4 people on their block were early retirees from General Motors. Their pension benefits were capped at $72K. (I know that's a lot, but it's a lot less than they were getting.) And the highest ranked among them has already sold and move back to Michigan. They were all drawing money from 'defered compensation plans', where GM held back some salary to pay them later at a lower tax rate. Guess what. In bankruptcy, all those funds go to the creditors. It puts a 6 figure crimp in their lifestyles... Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 8:56 AM, frank theriault wrote: > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: >> Boris, >> >> No armed revolts here, but many unhappy people. >> The perception is that public employees - teachers, police, & firemen >> are retiring at 2/3 or 3/4 of annual salary as paid by the state government. >> Most people are not covered by such pensions and have seen their >> retirement 'nest egg' fall by 50% or more in the financial crisis. >> (Falling home prices vs fixed mortgage loans have wiped out homes as assets.) >> So the 'have-nots' now resent the union deals and see pensions >> as something they will pay increased taxes to cover in the future. >> > > > These people (the unionized public employees) perform important > functions in our society, and for the most part deserve their salaries > and other benefits. They unionized and made their deals when times > were good, and one can't blame them for holding on to them as best > they can. > > I don't know about Chicago or elsewhere in the US, but here there has > been an ongoing attack on unionized public sector workers for some > time. Since government can't simply wipe out contracts already made, > they now have things like hiring freezes, hire loads of part time > employees (who aren't unionized) or contract out lots of work (which > studies show often don't save money in the long run). Services are > being trimmed and shut down to the detriment of those who can least > afford it. But hey, it saves tax payers' money, so that's okay, > right? > > Funny, but I don't see mass protests about how much CEOs and > executives at car companies or banks make - or what their pension > plans are worth. I'd bet it's a lot more than what the average cop or > teacher makes. How many billions of government dollars went into > bailing out those two industries? > > cheers, > frank > > > -- > "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Thanks, Brian. I see Stan answered your question about quorum and the 14 Dems. Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: "Brian Walters" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 9:58 PM Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 21:16 -0600, "Christine Aguila" wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 Excellent. What with the situation in Libya and the Christchurch earthquake, the demonstrations in the US haven't received a lot of coverage here - at least on the few news broadcasts I watch these days. I did some googling to inform myself a bit more - one bizarre thing I found was that Wisconsin democrats have apparently gone interstate to avoid being brought to the state legislature by the State police. The report I read says "The Republican controlled Senate dispatched the state troopers to find the Democrats, but they were unsuccessful. A group of them have opted to stay in a hotel just on the other side of the state line in Illinois." Is that real? Anyway - two excellent documentary images. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders wherever you are -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Thanks, Tim. I'll take a look at a possible crop. Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: "Tim Bray" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 9:43 PM Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking That first picture is very strong. Maybe crop it a bit at the right? -T On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 7:22 PM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: Christine - I love these... and I'm with you, too. Good job! ann Christine Aguila wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Thanks, Paul. I wish I could say I totally planned the composition at the point of capture, but I can't :-). I think I got a bit lucky there. Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: "Paul Stenquist" To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 9:16 PM Subject: Re: paw week 8--please read before looking Well done. I like the composition on the second shot, where you took advantage of the interesting background. Nice tonality on both as well. Paul On Feb 26, 2011, at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: > No, No now Frank, > I was trying to be neutral about it. > The teachers, police, and firemen make valuable contributions, > and we have a contract with them that we must honor. > I'm just reflecting what I heard last Monday at dinner with my car buddies. > One is a retired teacher headed to Florida for 2 months of sunshine. > The other guy is a 67 year old car salesman without any pension. > Guess which one was bending my ear about goverment worker pensions. > Regards, Bob S. I hope you saw the smiley at the bottom of my last post, Bob. I know you were trying to be neutral - so was I, believe it or not. My beef (bad choice of words for a vegan) isn't with you, it's with those who blame unions for everything. However, as Boris says, this isn't the place, is it? ;-) cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On 27/02/2011 15:40, Bob Sullivan wrote: Boris, No armed revolts here, but many unhappy people. The perception is that public employees - teachers, police,& firemen are retiring at 2/3 or 3/4 of annual salary as paid by the state government. Most people are not covered by such pensions and have seen their retirement 'nest egg' fall by 50% or more in the financial crisis. (Falling home prices vs fixed mortgage loans have wiped out homes as assets.) So the 'have-nots' now resent the union deals and see pensions as something they will pay increased taxes to cover in the future. The percieved injustice of the situation complicates things. The public employee unions have been very successful negotiating with the politicians. And the politicians have hidden that success in future IOU's, not raising taxes to fund the future debts. The unions are often the most powerful supporters of politicians with loose purse strings, and the cycle continues. You do know that about 2/3 of the highest grossing US companies and 68% of foreign companies working in the US paid virtually no tax last year? The injustice of the situation is radically different to the perception. Many people outside the US are astonished at the way turkeys keep voting for Christmas. From time to time, we throw out the old politicians and elect new ones. Often the new politicians have no idea how to solve the problems, but propose some outlandish remedies that make the 'have nots' feel better. After a lot of shouting and protest, the problems get sorted and painfull solutions are implemented. Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 2:23 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: Despite the fact that you eventually turned demonstrator, you did an excellent job as a photographer, Christine. I am not offended, obviously, though a little devil inside me begs me to type down the question - aren't you going to overthrow your government too? And then another little devil asking - has the world revolution finally started? But seriously, there is much sense in what's going on now practically everywhere in the world. At least that's how methinks... Boris On 2/27/2011 5:16 AM, Christine Aguila wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
No, No now Frank, I was trying to be neutral about it. The teachers, police, and firemen make valuable contributions, and we have a contract with them that we must honor. I'm just reflecting what I heard last Monday at dinner with my car buddies. One is a retired teacher headed to Florida for 2 months of sunshine. The other guy is a 67 year old car salesman without any pension. Guess which one was bending my ear about goverment worker pensions. Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:21 AM, frank theriault wrote: > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: >> Bob, Frank, I was merely making a passing joke on the way Christine >> described her being both the part of the demonstration and an external >> observer with the camera. >> >> I realize that social and economic pressure is high in your country, >> although specifics vary with areas, etc. We have very similar issues here as >> well, although they are somewhat different in specifics, which I cannot >> possibly give, because I don't follow on this, mostly because I don't really >> understand all the details and all the nuances. >> >> If you (either of you) want to discuss it further, I reckon we can do it off >> the list, for obvious reasons. >> > > He started it. > > cheers, > frank > > ;-) > > -- > "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: > Bob, Frank, I was merely making a passing joke on the way Christine > described her being both the part of the demonstration and an external > observer with the camera. > > I realize that social and economic pressure is high in your country, > although specifics vary with areas, etc. We have very similar issues here as > well, although they are somewhat different in specifics, which I cannot > possibly give, because I don't follow on this, mostly because I don't really > understand all the details and all the nuances. > > If you (either of you) want to discuss it further, I reckon we can do it off > the list, for obvious reasons. > He started it. cheers, frank ;-) -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Bob, Frank, I was merely making a passing joke on the way Christine described her being both the part of the demonstration and an external observer with the camera. I realize that social and economic pressure is high in your country, although specifics vary with areas, etc. We have very similar issues here as well, although they are somewhat different in specifics, which I cannot possibly give, because I don't follow on this, mostly because I don't really understand all the details and all the nuances. If you (either of you) want to discuss it further, I reckon we can do it off the list, for obvious reasons. Boris On 2/27/2011 4:56 PM, frank theriault wrote: On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: Boris, No armed revolts here, but many unhappy people. The perception is that public employees - teachers, police,& firemen are retiring at 2/3 or 3/4 of annual salary as paid by the state government. Most people are not covered by such pensions and have seen their retirement 'nest egg' fall by 50% or more in the financial crisis. (Falling home prices vs fixed mortgage loans have wiped out homes as assets.) So the 'have-nots' now resent the union deals and see pensions as something they will pay increased taxes to cover in the future. These people (the unionized public employees) perform important functions in our society, and for the most part deserve their salaries and other benefits. They unionized and made their deals when times were good, and one can't blame them for holding on to them as best they can. I don't know about Chicago or elsewhere in the US, but here there has been an ongoing attack on unionized public sector workers for some time. Since government can't simply wipe out contracts already made, they now have things like hiring freezes, hire loads of part time employees (who aren't unionized) or contract out lots of work (which studies show often don't save money in the long run). Services are being trimmed and shut down to the detriment of those who can least afford it. But hey, it saves tax payers' money, so that's okay, right? Funny, but I don't see mass protests about how much CEOs and executives at car companies or banks make - or what their pension plans are worth. I'd bet it's a lot more than what the average cop or teacher makes. How many billions of government dollars went into bailing out those two industries? cheers, frank -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: > Boris, > > No armed revolts here, but many unhappy people. > The perception is that public employees - teachers, police, & firemen > are retiring at 2/3 or 3/4 of annual salary as paid by the state government. > Most people are not covered by such pensions and have seen their > retirement 'nest egg' fall by 50% or more in the financial crisis. > (Falling home prices vs fixed mortgage loans have wiped out homes as assets.) > So the 'have-nots' now resent the union deals and see pensions > as something they will pay increased taxes to cover in the future. > These people (the unionized public employees) perform important functions in our society, and for the most part deserve their salaries and other benefits. They unionized and made their deals when times were good, and one can't blame them for holding on to them as best they can. I don't know about Chicago or elsewhere in the US, but here there has been an ongoing attack on unionized public sector workers for some time. Since government can't simply wipe out contracts already made, they now have things like hiring freezes, hire loads of part time employees (who aren't unionized) or contract out lots of work (which studies show often don't save money in the long run). Services are being trimmed and shut down to the detriment of those who can least afford it. But hey, it saves tax payers' money, so that's okay, right? Funny, but I don't see mass protests about how much CEOs and executives at car companies or banks make - or what their pension plans are worth. I'd bet it's a lot more than what the average cop or teacher makes. How many billions of government dollars went into bailing out those two industries? cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Boris, No armed revolts here, but many unhappy people. The perception is that public employees - teachers, police, & firemen are retiring at 2/3 or 3/4 of annual salary as paid by the state government. Most people are not covered by such pensions and have seen their retirement 'nest egg' fall by 50% or more in the financial crisis. (Falling home prices vs fixed mortgage loans have wiped out homes as assets.) So the 'have-nots' now resent the union deals and see pensions as something they will pay increased taxes to cover in the future. The percieved injustice of the situation complicates things. The public employee unions have been very successful negotiating with the politicians. And the politicians have hidden that success in future IOU's, not raising taxes to fund the future debts. The unions are often the most powerful supporters of politicians with loose purse strings, and the cycle continues. >From time to time, we throw out the old politicians and elect new ones. Often the new politicians have no idea how to solve the problems, but propose some outlandish remedies that make the 'have nots' feel better. After a lot of shouting and protest, the problems get sorted and painfull solutions are implemented. Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 2:23 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: > Despite the fact that you eventually turned demonstrator, you did an > excellent job as a photographer, Christine. > > I am not offended, obviously, though a little devil inside me begs me to > type down the question - aren't you going to overthrow your government too? > And then another little devil asking - has the world revolution finally > started? > > But seriously, there is much sense in what's going on now practically > everywhere in the world. At least that's how methinks... > > Boris > > > On 2/27/2011 5:16 AM, Christine Aguila wrote: >> >> Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. >> right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, >> I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views >> on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure >> photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to >> my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any >> pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being >> demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If >> anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more >> comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from >> Chicago, Local 1600 :-) >> >> http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 >> > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
I like them both, however i really like the first shot. Great detail and emotion here. Dave On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: > Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right > now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro > labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone > here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic > standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this > week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was > constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in > the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link > below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's > events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) > > http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
That first picture is very strong. Maybe crop it a bit at the right? -T On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 7:22 PM, Ann Sanfedele wrote: > Christine - I love these... and I'm with you, too. Good job! > > ann > > Christine Aguila wrote: > >> Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. >> right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm >> pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on >> anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic >> standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this >> week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was >> constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in >> the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link >> below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's >> events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) >> >> http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 >> > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Really nicely caught, Christine! Especially like #1. Jack --- On Sat, 2/26/11, Christine Aguila wrote: > From: Christine Aguila > Subject: paw week 8--please read before looking > To: pdml@pdml.net > Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 7:16 PM > Hi Everyone: I know things are > a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the > labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro > labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my > political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be > offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am > rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this > week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any > pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between > being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly > demonstrator. If anyone is interested, > there's a link below the second picture to a more > comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, > Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) > > http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 > > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link > directly above and follow the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Despite the fact that you eventually turned demonstrator, you did an excellent job as a photographer, Christine. I am not offended, obviously, though a little devil inside me begs me to type down the question - aren't you going to overthrow your government too? And then another little devil asking - has the world revolution finally started? But seriously, there is much sense in what's going on now practically everywhere in the world. At least that's how methinks... Boris On 2/27/2011 5:16 AM, Christine Aguila wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
That's a really good set Christine. Your first choice is a good one, but I think this one is much more powerful than your second choice: http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP7155_large.html Chris On 27 February 2011 03:16, Christine Aguila wrote: > Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right > now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro > labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone > here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic > standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this > week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was > constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in > the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link > below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's > events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) > > http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: > Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right > now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro > labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone > here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic > standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this > week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was > constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in > the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link > below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's > events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) > > http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 I especially like the first shot. Depicts her emotions and feelings wonderfully. cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Stan Halpin wrote: Very nice! Though I don't much care for the second - too blah. I think either of the below from your larger set, particularly the second one, is stronger. In fact, I think 7155 is the best overall. What strikes me (pun somewhat unintentional) about 7155 is that it shows the crowd, passion, action, but doesn't blatantly identify the issue(s). Most of the others are good record shots, this one is a strong generic "protest" shot that will live after the current flapdoodle is resolved one way or another. IMVHO (No, I am not suggesting that the protests are nonsense, but rather that the governor is purposely stirring up a fuss in order to slip something else by while people are looking the other way. What is he going to do next, call out the Pinkertons?) [Pardon the obscure reference to 130-year-old events in America's struggle for balance between worker dignity and corporate greed.] http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP3266_large.html or http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP7155_large.html stan Christine I really like what Stan picked too... but more the first than the second... though the point about its generic one is well taken. lots of good shots here... but IGP3266 is really handsome graphically. ann On Feb 26, 2011, at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Feb 26, 2011, at 10:58 PM, Brian Walters wrote: > The report I read > says "The Republican controlled Senate dispatched the state troopers to > find the Democrats, but they were unsuccessful. A group of them have > opted to stay in a hotel just on the other side of the state line in > Illinois." > > Is that real? > It is real. By the (self imposed) rules of that legislature, the Republicans have a majority but cannot conduct business without a quorum present, and they don't have enough to meet the (60%?) quorum threshold. Avoiding a roll-call in order to deny a quorum being present is a time-honored tactic at all levels of government in the U.S. stan -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Very nice! Though I don't much care for the second - too blah. I think either of the below from your larger set, particularly the second one, is stronger. In fact, I think 7155 is the best overall. What strikes me (pun somewhat unintentional) about 7155 is that it shows the crowd, passion, action, but doesn't blatantly identify the issue(s). Most of the others are good record shots, this one is a strong generic "protest" shot that will live after the current flapdoodle is resolved one way or another. IMVHO (No, I am not suggesting that the protests are nonsense, but rather that the governor is purposely stirring up a fuss in order to slip something else by while people are looking the other way. What is he going to do next, call out the Pinkertons?) [Pardon the obscure reference to 130-year-old events in America's struggle for balance between worker dignity and corporate greed.] http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP3266_large.html or http://www.caguila.com/caguila/chglaborrally/content/_IGP7155_large.html stan On Feb 26, 2011, at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: > Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right > now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro > labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone > here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic > standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this > week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was > constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in > the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below > the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. > Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) > > http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 21:16 -0600, "Christine Aguila" wrote: > Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. > right > now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro > labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone > here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic > standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog > this > week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I > was > constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and > in > the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link > below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's > events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) > > http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 Excellent. What with the situation in Libya and the Christchurch earthquake, the demonstrations in the US haven't received a lot of coverage here - at least on the few news broadcasts I watch these days. I did some googling to inform myself a bit more - one bizarre thing I found was that Wisconsin democrats have apparently gone interstate to avoid being brought to the state legislature by the State police. The report I read says "The Republican controlled Senate dispatched the state troopers to find the Democrats, but they were unsuccessful. A group of them have opted to stay in a hotel just on the other side of the state line in Illinois." Is that real? Anyway - two excellent documentary images. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders wherever you are -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Christine - I love these... and I'm with you, too. Good job! ann Christine Aguila wrote: Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: paw week 8--please read before looking
Well done. I like the composition on the second shot, where you took advantage of the interesting background. Nice tonality on both as well. Paul On Feb 26, 2011, at 10:16 PM, Christine Aguila wrote: > Hi Everyone: I know things are a bit politically charged in the U.S. right > now given the labor issue, and I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm pro > labor. I just wanted to say I'm not pushing my political views on anyone > here, so I hope no one will be offended. From a pure photographic > standpoint, I am rather proud of the two photos I posted to my PAW blog this > week. Frankly, I'm amazed I was able to get any pictures taken, since I was > constantly alternating between being demonstrator then photographer--and in > the end, mostly demonstrator. If anyone is interested, there's a link below > the second picture to a more comprehensive gallery of the day's events. > Cheers, Christine from Chicago, Local 1600 :-) > > http://aguilapaw.posterous.com/paw-week-8 > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
