Re: Cameras for a kid

[Stanley Halpin]

When I was a kid we lived a couple of years in Salonica, northern Greece. There 
was an organ grinder we saw several times on the street but rather than a 
monkey he came with a bear. I had nightmares about that bear climbing in my 
bedroom window and hiding under the bed waiting to get me. Never did like organ 
grinders after that.

stan


> On Mar 9, 2018, at 3:52 PM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
> 
> What's the problem? There were no organ grinders when I was a kid, yet 
> somehow I learned what they were.
> 
>> On 9 Mar 2018, at 17:08, Igor PDML-StR  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I looked at the preview offered by Amazon, - and stumbled on the first page 
>> there (p.20/21): how would you explain to a contemporary kid the meaning of 
>> "organ grinder"?!..
>> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Xoe7oN76L.jpg
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Igor
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Eric Weir Thu, 08 Mar 2018 09:58:51 -0800 wrote:
>> 
>> I also recommended this book, based on Amazon reviews.
>> 
>> Seems to be specifically about photography rather than just technique.
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Bob W-PDML]

What's the problem? There were no organ grinders when I was a kid, yet somehow 
I learned what they were.

> On 9 Mar 2018, at 17:08, Igor PDML-StR  wrote:
> 
> 
> I looked at the preview offered by Amazon, - and stumbled on the first page 
> there (p.20/21): how would you explain to a contemporary kid the meaning of 
> "organ grinder"?!..
> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Xoe7oN76L.jpg
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Igor
> 
> 
> 
> Eric Weir Thu, 08 Mar 2018 09:58:51 -0800 wrote:
> 
> I also recommended this book, based on Amazon reviews.
> 
> Seems to be specifically about photography rather than just technique.
> 
> 

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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Bob W-PDML]

:0)

I bought the Joel Meyerowitz book - it really is good, thanks for putting me on 
to it.

B

> On 9 Mar 2018, at 16:59, Igor PDML-StR  wrote:
> 
> 
> Aah, that were genious you, Bob!
> 
> All this time, I've been thinking who was that kiddo cursing like a sailor in 
> Sanskrit while they were changing his diapers and nursing during the breaks 
> in the next classroom!
> :-D
> 
> Paul: I learned long division at 7, but did not learn that it was long until 
> I was 25 y.o. [Indivisible!]
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 6:28 PM, Bob W-PDML wrote:
>> 
>>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 19:34, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
>>> 
>>> When I was learning photography and darkroom techniques I was studying long
>>> division and reading the Hardy Boys. I was ten years old.
>> 
>> I read them when I was seven.
>> In Sanskrit.
>> During breaks in nuclear physics classes.
>> That I was giving.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Mar 8, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  
 wrote:
 
 I think BobW and I are soul mates. When I was getting deeper into
 photography in High School, I was studying Latin, German, Old English,
 Physics, Calculus, and reading S.I. Hayakawa's treatise on general
 semantics, "Language in Thought and Action." I'd already signed off on the
 French as savages.
 
 G
 —
 "We all get to be young and foolish in our lives. If we survive that, we
 get to be old and foolish."
 
> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:50 AM, mike wilson  wrote:
> 
> Your masochism knows no bounds.
> 
>> On 08 March 2018 at 16:36 Bob W-PDML  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting to read
>> French literature...
>> 
>>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
>>> 
>>> You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-)
>>> ...
>>> 
 On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
 
 Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him
 feeling inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of
 existence, so anything by Pentax will do.
 
 ...
 
> On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> 
> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her
> grandson. He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all
> pretty precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may
> not be best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[John]

On 3/9/2018 12:03, Larry Colen wrote:


I will say that I sure missed a lot reading Stranger in a Strange
Land when I was ten years old.



NO Shittah! I never had the chance to read it when I was 10.

It didn't come out until I was 11.


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Re: Cameras for a kid

[John]

Nicholas van Rijn & Dominic Flandery (aka "Flandry of Terra").

On 3/9/2018 12:33, Igor PDML-StR wrote:



That's quite a story!

But I should admit, despite having swallowed tons of sci-fi books as
a teenager and post-teenager, I had to look up Poul Anderson.

I am not sure if I just missed the name or his books as well... 
However,  The Snows of Ganymede and Virgin Planet sound familiar...


Being a kid, I always felt that all great writers lived long time
ago. That feeling continued for a while into adulthood. Around
1995-96, I was surprised to meet Ray Bradbury, one of my favorite
sci-fi writers (and writers in general) during his visit to
Urbana-Champaign, IL. I thought he had been long gone by that time.

Igor



Larry Colen Fri, 09 Mar 2018 09:04:16 -0800 wrote:


I don't remember what I was reading specifically, but I think it
was the

Tom Swift, Jr series. My older brother loved The Hardy Boys, but I
was more into science fiction. The first books I took out from the
Public Library at age seven were "Two for the Stars" and "Have Space
Suit, Will Travel" by Robert Heinlein. I've not returned yet... ;-)


Heh! In first grade I went through all of the spaceship under the
apple tree books, and when they were exhausted asked Dad to point me
to more stuff like that. The public library had Rocket Ship Galileo,
and when I finished that I found Have spacesuit will travel in the
school library. It didn't take me long to go through all the Heinlein
juveniles and start in on Asimov, Heinlein etc. in the adult
section.


I will say that I sure missed a lot reading Stranger in a Strange
Land when I was ten years old.


I've heard this story, told pretty much the same from two people who
know the girl involved ...


In the late 1960's Astrid, a young girl 13 or 14 years old, who lived
in the East Bay had chosen SiaSL for a book report assignment. The
teacher also asked a bunch of other questions for the students to
answer. When the teacher handed back the reports he asked Astrid to
talk to him after class.


After class, he commented that he noticed her answer to "why did the
author write this book?" was "To make money". "I'm sure you realize
that a lot of people find this book really inspirational, and your
answer seems rather cynical for someone your age. I'm curious why you
chose that answer"


"Oh, that's what he told me."

Knowing how reclusive Heinlein was the teacher was a bit surprised by
this answer and asked how she had asked him.


"On the phone" she replied matter of factly.

Certain that she was making things up he asked her how she had gotten
his number, waiting for the inevitable confession that she was making
things up.


"My dad's phone book", as if it was the obvious answer.

The teacher had had enough of her spinning her yarn further and
further finally started to get hot under the collar and angrily
started to launch into a tirade. "Astrid Anderson!" he started. Then
he stopped, thought for a second and asked "What's your father's
first name?".






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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Alan C]

1492?

Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: Larry Colen

Sent: 9 March, 2018 7:03 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Cameras for a kid

I don't think I've seen a thread in a long time that is so well suited
for giving crusty old farts a chance to pontificate on their experiences
back when they wore kneepants.

Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
I just ordered one copy of that book for me and one copy for a friend as a 
birthday gift.
We're both 64 this year: It's important to keep our child's eye. Thanks 
for posting the link! :-)


BTW: I learned basic develop and print with the Minolta 16-Ps when I was 
eight or nine…




I learned the basics of exposure on a Spotmatic II when I was 12. That
summer, when we moved, I took photography in summer school some months
later and my first camera was an Argus C-3. At the end of summer I got
an SRT-101 as my bar-mitzvah present, and a while later Dad and I set up
a darkroom.


I don't remember what I was reading specifically, but I think it was

the Tom Swift, Jr series. My older brother loved The Hardy Boys, but I
was more into science fiction. The first books I took out from the
Public Library at age seven were "Two for the Stars" and "Have Space
Suit, Will Travel" by Robert Heinlein. I've not returned yet... ;-)

Heh!  In first grade I went through all of the spaceship under the apple
tree books, and when they were exhausted asked Dad to point me to more
stuff like that. The public library had Rocket Ship Galileo, and when I
finished that I found Have spacesuit will travel in the school library.
 It didn't take me long to go through all the Heinlein juveniles and
start in on Asimov, Heinlein etc. in the adult section.

I will say that I sure missed a lot reading Stranger in a Strange Land
when I was ten years old.

I've heard this story, told pretty much the same from two people who
know the girl involved ...

In the late 1960's Astrid, a young girl 13 or 14 years old, who lived in
the East Bay had chosen SiaSL for a book report assignment. The teacher
also asked a bunch of other questions for the students to answer. When
the teacher handed back the reports he asked Astrid to talk to him after
class.

After class, he commented that he noticed her answer to "why did the
author write this book?" was "To make money". "I'm sure you realize that
a lot of people find this book really inspirational, and your answer
seems rather cynical for someone your age. I'm curious why you chose
that answer"

"Oh, that's what he told me."

Knowing how reclusive Heinlein was the teacher was a bit surprised by
this answer and asked how she had asked him.

"On the phone" she replied matter of factly.

Certain that she was making things up he asked her how she had gotten
his number, waiting for the inevitable confession that she was making
things up.

"My dad's phone book", as if it was the obvious answer.

The teacher had had enough of her spinning her yarn further and further
finally started to get hot under the collar and angrily started to
launch into a tirade.  "Astrid Anderson!" he started. Then he stopped,
thought for a second and asked "What's your father's first name?".

--
Larry Colen  l...@red4est.com (postbox on min4est) http://red4est.com/lrc


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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Igor PDML-StR]

That's quite a story!

But I should admit, despite having swallowed tons of sci-fi books as a 
teenager and post-teenager, I had to look up Poul Anderson.


I am not sure if I just missed the name or his books as well...
However,  The Snows of Ganymede and Virgin Planet sound familiar...

Being a kid, I always felt that all great writers lived long time ago.
That feeling continued for a while into adulthood.
Around 1995-96, I was surprised to meet Ray Bradbury, one of my favorite 
sci-fi writers (and writers in general) during his visit to 
Urbana-Champaign, IL. I thought he had been long gone by that time.


Igor



 Larry Colen Fri, 09 Mar 2018 09:04:16 -0800 wrote:

I don't remember what I was reading specifically, but I think it was the 
Tom Swift, Jr series. My older brother loved The Hardy Boys, but I was 
more into science fiction. The first books I took out from the Public 
Library at age seven were "Two for the Stars" and "Have Space Suit, Will 
Travel" by Robert Heinlein. I've not returned yet... ;-)



Heh! In first grade I went through all of the spaceship under the apple 
tree books, and when they were exhausted asked Dad to point me to more 
stuff like that. The public library had Rocket Ship Galileo, and when I 
finished that I found Have spacesuit will travel in the school library. It 
didn't take me long to go through all the Heinlein juveniles and start in 
on Asimov, Heinlein etc. in the adult section.



I will say that I sure missed a lot reading Stranger in a Strange Land 
when I was ten years old.



I've heard this story, told pretty much the same from two people who know 
the girl involved ...



In the late 1960's Astrid, a young girl 13 or 14 years old, who lived in 
the East Bay had chosen SiaSL for a book report assignment. The teacher 
also asked a bunch of other questions for the students to answer. When the 
teacher handed back the reports he asked Astrid to talk to him after 
class.



After class, he commented that he noticed her answer to "why did the 
author write this book?" was "To make money". "I'm sure you realize that a 
lot of people find this book really inspirational, and your answer seems 
rather cynical for someone your age. I'm curious why you chose that 
answer"



"Oh, that's what he told me."

Knowing how reclusive Heinlein was the teacher was a bit surprised by this 
answer and asked how she had asked him.



"On the phone" she replied matter of factly.

Certain that she was making things up he asked her how she had gotten his 
number, waiting for the inevitable confession that she was making things 
up.



"My dad's phone book", as if it was the obvious answer.

The teacher had had enough of her spinning her yarn further and further 
finally started to get hot under the collar and angrily started to launch 
into a tirade. "Astrid Anderson!" he started. Then he stopped, thought for 
a second and asked "What's your father's first name?".




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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

Oh, I'd just pull out my accordion and get the monkey dancing ... That should 
get the point across pretty quickly. 

G
—
No matter where you go, there you are. 

> On Mar 9, 2018, at 9:07 AM, Igor PDML-StR  wrote:
> 
> I looked at the preview offered by Amazon, - and stumbled on the first page 
> there (p.20/21): how would you explain to a contemporary kid the meaning of 
> "organ grinder"?!..
> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Xoe7oN76L.jpg

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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Igor PDML-StR]

I looked at the preview offered by Amazon, - and stumbled on the first 
page there (p.20/21): how would you explain to a contemporary kid the 
meaning of "organ grinder"?!..

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Xoe7oN76L.jpg

Cheers,

Igor



Eric Weir Thu, 08 Mar 2018 09:58:51 -0800 wrote:

I also recommended this book, based on Amazon reviews.

 Seems to be specifically about photography rather than just technique.


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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Larry Colen]

I don't think I've seen a thread in a long time that is so well suited 
for giving crusty old farts a chance to pontificate on their experiences 
back when they wore kneepants.


Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:

I just ordered one copy of that book for me and one copy for a friend as a 
birthday gift.
We're both 64 this year: It's important to keep our child's eye. Thanks for 
posting the link! :-)

BTW: I learned basic develop and print with the Minolta 16-Ps when I was eight 
or nine…




I learned the basics of exposure on a Spotmatic II when I was 12. That 
summer, when we moved, I took photography in summer school some months 
later and my first camera was an Argus C-3. At the end of summer I got 
an SRT-101 as my bar-mitzvah present, and a while later Dad and I set up 
a darkroom.


> I don't remember what I was reading specifically, but I think it was 
the Tom Swift, Jr series. My older brother loved The Hardy Boys, but I 
was more into science fiction. The first books I took out from the 
Public Library at age seven were "Two for the Stars" and "Have Space 
Suit, Will Travel" by Robert Heinlein. I've not returned yet... ;-)


Heh!  In first grade I went through all of the spaceship under the apple 
tree books, and when they were exhausted asked Dad to point me to more 
stuff like that. The public library had Rocket Ship Galileo, and when I 
finished that I found Have spacesuit will travel in the school library. 
 It didn't take me long to go through all the Heinlein juveniles and 
start in on Asimov, Heinlein etc. in the adult section.


I will say that I sure missed a lot reading Stranger in a Strange Land 
when I was ten years old.


I've heard this story, told pretty much the same from two people who 
know the girl involved ...


In the late 1960's Astrid, a young girl 13 or 14 years old, who lived in 
the East Bay had chosen SiaSL for a book report assignment. The teacher 
also asked a bunch of other questions for the students to answer. When 
the teacher handed back the reports he asked Astrid to talk to him after 
class.


After class, he commented that he noticed her answer to "why did the 
author write this book?" was "To make money". "I'm sure you realize that 
a lot of people find this book really inspirational, and your answer 
seems rather cynical for someone your age. I'm curious why you chose 
that answer"


"Oh, that's what he told me."

Knowing how reclusive Heinlein was the teacher was a bit surprised by 
this answer and asked how she had asked him.


"On the phone" she replied matter of factly.

Certain that she was making things up he asked her how she had gotten 
his number, waiting for the inevitable confession that she was making 
things up.


"My dad's phone book", as if it was the obvious answer.

The teacher had had enough of her spinning her yarn further and further 
finally started to get hot under the collar and angrily started to 
launch into a tirade.  "Astrid Anderson!" he started. Then he stopped, 
thought for a second and asked "What's your father's first name?".


--
Larry Colen  l...@red4est.com (postbox on min4est) http://red4est.com/lrc


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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Igor PDML-StR]

Aah, that were genious you, Bob!

All this time, I've been thinking who was that kiddo cursing like a sailor 
in Sanskrit while they were changing his diapers and nursing during the 
breaks in the next classroom!

:-D

Paul: I learned long division at 7, but did not learn that it was long 
until I was 25 y.o. [Indivisible!]




 On Mar 8, 2018, at 6:28 PM, Bob W-PDML wrote:



On 8 Mar 2018, at 19:34, Paul Stenquist  wrote:

When I was learning photography and darkroom techniques I was studying long
division and reading the Hardy Boys. I was ten years old.


I read them when I was seven.
In Sanskrit.
During breaks in nuclear physics classes.
That I was giving.





On Mar 8, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:

I think BobW and I are soul mates. When I was getting deeper into
photography in High School, I was studying Latin, German, Old English,
Physics, Calculus, and reading S.I. Hayakawa's treatise on general
semantics, "Language in Thought and Action." I'd already signed off on the
French as savages.

G
—
"We all get to be young and foolish in our lives. If we survive that, we
get to be old and foolish."


On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:50 AM, mike wilson  wrote:

Your masochism knows no bounds.


On 08 March 2018 at 16:36 Bob W-PDML  wrote:


At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting to read
French literature...


On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:

You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-)
...


On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:

Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him
feeling inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of
existence, so anything by Pentax will do.

...


On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:


A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her
grandson. He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all
pretty precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may
not be best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.



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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Mark Roberts]

Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:

>>I just ordered one copy of that book for me and one copy for a friend as a 
>>birthday gift. 
>>We're both 64 this year: It's important to keep our child's eye. Thanks for 
>>posting the link! :-)
>
>
> 

Coincidentally, the Guardian had a couple of pieces about Joel
Meyerowitz just two days ago:
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2018/mar/07/joel-meyerowitz-prowl-street-photography-where-i-find-myself
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2018/mar/07/photography-legend-joel-meyerowitz-phones-killed-sexiness-street-most-stunning-shots

 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

I just ordered one copy of that book for me and one copy for a friend as a 
birthday gift. 
We're both 64 this year: It's important to keep our child's eye. Thanks for 
posting the link! :-)

BTW: I learned basic develop and print with the Minolta 16-Ps when I was eight 
or nine… I don't remember what I was reading specifically, but I think it was 
the Tom Swift, Jr series. My older brother loved The Hardy Boys, but I was more 
into science fiction. The first books I took out from the Public Library at age 
seven were "Two for the Stars" and "Have Space Suit, Will Travel" by Robert 
Heinlein. I've not returned yet... ;-)

G
—
If you're afraid to fall down, you'll never stand up.


> On Mar 8, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
> 
> That book looks fantastic - great idea. And I like Godfrey's idea too, 
> despite my Jesuitical tendencies.
> 
> B
> 
>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 17:58, Eric Weir  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> But I liked Godfrey’s suggestion of instant photography. So I also 
>> recommended one of the Fuji Instax cameras. A cheaper alternative that he 
>> could have fun with and learn about composition, light, and exposure rather 
>> than, as Ken says, "getting caught up in the technical side - f-stop, 
>> shutter speed etc." 
>> 
>> I also recommended this book, based on Amazon reviews. 
>> 
>>  Seems to be specifically about photography rather than just technique.



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Re: Cameras for a kid

[John]

On 3/8/2018 18:31, Bob W-PDML wrote:

On 8 Mar 2018, at 21:45, John Francis  wrote:



On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:47:57PM -0500, John wrote:

On 3/8/2018 15:27, Mark Roberts wrote:
John wrote:


I think "French literature" is a euphemism for "dirty French Post Cards".

For young American boys of a certain age, the lingerie section of the
Sears Catalog had to suffice.


I think "Sears lingerie" has to be the least sexy sounding concept
I've ever heard of.



Boys had no internet back then. Where else were they going to find
pictures of (almost) nekkid women?


Health & Efficiency.



They were completely nekkid! Let's all have a big hand for H&E, boys!




I don't think the drugstore down the street had that one on their magazine rack.

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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Eric Weir]

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 3:03 PM, Igor PDML-StR  wrote:
> 
> You described the boy, but it is important to know what (and why) he is 
> interested w.r.t. photography. Has he expressed his interest toward 
> photography? Or he just wants to have a camera to take cool selfies?
> Has he taken any photos (e.g. with a phone or tablet)? Have you seen those? 
> They might tell you some information…

Thanks, Igor. I regret to say that I didn’t inquire about that. I know he’s 
artistically inclined. Likes to hang out with my artist son-in-law. Was very 
curious about my camera when I spent some time with him last summer. Now that 
you ask, though, I’ll check in with my sister about it.

> Whether to get a system with interchangeable lenses (e.g. micro-2/3) or not, 
> - that would depend on the inclinations of the kiddo.
> If yes, meaning that the kid is expected to be very interested (and I'd talk 
> to him; at 12, he is grown up enough for that) and have sufficient
> guidance, - I'd consider starting with a reasonable "normal" prime lens, 
> adding a moderate zoom next, or the other way around.
> Otherwise, starting with a P&S with plenty of manual controls might be 
> sufficient to see if the interest lasts.

Those were the two options I recommended, along with an instant film camera in 
case they’re just exploring his interest.

> HTH

Definitely does, Igor.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"The invincible shield of caring Is a weapon 
sent from the sky against being dead." 

- Tao Te Ching 67


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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Eric Weir]

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> Fuji X-2S

Shoulda been X-E2S.

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Eric Weir
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Eric Weir]

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> 
> The book appears to be quite good. But I think a digital camera is a must. 
> Kids live online, and he’ll undoubtedly want to post digital photos. Instant 
> cameras are old people toys. A good phone is better than many point and 
> shoots. My iPhone 7 allows extensive rendering options with the provided 
> apps. Add on apps expand that capability.

Thanks, Paul. I’m not certain of the state of my grandnephew’s interest in 
photography. The instant camera was in part a suggestion in case that’s unclear 
at this point. A way to find out. Spent some time with him last summer and he 
was very curious about my camera. Wanted to hold it. While he had it in hand I 
pointed out a few things. Doubt that they stuck. But I wouldn't be surprised to 
find out that he is definitely interested. In that case a digital camera would 
be the recommendation. 

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Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"What does it mean...that the world is so beautiful?" 

- Mary Oliver 










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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Eric Weir]

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 3:40 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Steve Cottrell  wrote:
>> 
>> I would go for a used Fuji X-20 - brilliant camera to learn with.
> 
> I have one in like new condition that I'd be more than happy to part with.

I’ll keep you in mind, Bruce. The X-20 was one of my recommendations. (The 
others were Fuji X-2S with Fuji XF 28 2.8 and a Fuji Instax Mini (there are 
several). If my sister decides on it I’ll tell her about your camera.

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Decatur, GA  USA
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"Imagining the other is a powerful antidote to fanaticism and hatred." 

- Amos Oz


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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Eric Weir]

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 3:12 PM, John  wrote:
> 
>  think he'd probably get more out of the K1000, but I've been told
> more than once that I'm out of touch with what kids are into today.
> About all I do remember is how much it annoyed me when I was 12 to
> have some geezer telling me what was "good for me”.

A used camera shop here in Atlanta sells lots of film cameras to students. 

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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Eric Weir]

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 2:29 PM, Steve Cottrell  wrote:
> 
> I would go for a used Fuji X-20 - brilliant camera to learn with.
> 
> 

That was one of my other thoughts, Cotty. I recommended it, too.

FYI, I still have the Fuji X-Q1 I bought for my trip to Italy, and that got me 
sold on Fuji equipment. Great camera. Just doesn’t have the analog controls I’d 
like. 

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Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
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"What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, 
men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." 

- Chief Seattle






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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Paul Stenquist]

I knew that. 

Paul

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 6:28 PM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
> 
>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 19:34, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
>> 
>> When I was learning photography and darkroom techniques I was studying long 
>> division and reading the Hardy Boys. I was ten years old.
> 
> I read them when I was seven. 
> In Sanskrit. 
> During breaks in nuclear physics classes. 
> That I was giving.
> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think BobW and I are soul mates. When I was getting deeper into 
>>> photography in High School, I was studying Latin, German, Old English, 
>>> Physics, Calculus, and reading S.I. Hayakawa's treatise on general 
>>> semantics, "Language in Thought and Action." I'd already signed off on the 
>>> French as savages. 
>>> 
>>> G
>>> —
>>> "We all get to be young and foolish in our lives. If we survive that, we 
>>> get to be old and foolish."
>>> 
 On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:50 AM, mike wilson  wrote:
 
 Your masochism knows no bounds.
 
> On 08 March 2018 at 16:36 Bob W-PDML  wrote:
> 
> 
> At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting to read 
> French literature...
> 
>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
>> 
>> You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-)
>> ...
>> 
>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him 
>>> feeling inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of 
>>> existence, so anything by Pentax will do.
>>> 
>>> ...
>>> 
 On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:
 
 
 A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her 
 grandson. He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all 
 pretty precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may 
 not be best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.
 
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Paul Stenquist]

The book appears to be quite good. But I think a digital camera is a must. Kids 
live online, and he’ll undoubtedly want to post digital photos. Instant cameras 
are old people toys. A good phone is better than many point and shoots. My 
iPhone 7 allows extensive rendering options with the provided apps. Add on apps 
expand that capability.

Paul

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
> 
> You obviously know nothing of masochism and rope...
> 
>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 18:51, mike wilson  wrote:
>> 
>> Your masochism knows no bounds.
>> 
>>> On 08 March 2018 at 16:36 Bob W-PDML  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting to read 
>>> French literature...
>>> 
 On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
 
 You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-)
 
 When I was that age, I'd already bought my own first camera (a Minolta 
 16-P which cost me the grand sum of $19 at Camera Craft in New Rochelle, 
 NY), having been given a couple of Kodak cameras before then. But I wanted 
 something more adjustable. My mother loaned me her Argus C3... with which 
 I learned a great deal about ruining film until I figured out how to work 
 aperture, shutter speed, and focus. AND remembered to wind on to the next 
 frame before re-cocking the shutter. 
 
 There really isn't a modern equivalent. I'd never start a youngster on a 
 35mm film camera nowadays, and any digital camera today has way more 
 capabilities and automation ... And the expectations of young people today 
 are quite different from my expectations of a camera in 1968. 
 
 However, as a teacher of photography, my goal in getting people who are 
 interested started out is to let them begin with focus and understanding 
 light, and understanding the difference between what your eyes see and 
 what the camera might record. Nothing on the market today would start a 
 young person off with a better basic understanding of those things than an 
 instant film camera with manual focus, and it would also serve to give 
 them the immediate return on their effort that is so important to the 
 learning experience. Something like the Lomo Instant Square I obtained 
 recently or a Polaroid SX-70 with the Polaroid Original film would do a 
 great job of teaching these things, and would also be special, different, 
 from the smartphone experience in ways that would be beneficial to 
 learning how to be patient, how to be economical of exposures, and how to 
 "look, think, and consider" before shooting. 
 
 G
 —
 No matter where you go, there you are.
 
 
> On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
> 
> Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him 
> feeling inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of 
> existence, so anything by Pentax will do.
> 
> When I was about that age someone bought me an Instamatic, which quickly 
> frustrated me, but one of my schoolfriends had an Olympus Pen-F (the 
> half-frame one) and we could use the school darkroom, so I learned a bit 
> with that. There is a digital version now - something like that would 
> probably be good.
> 
> B
> 
>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson. 
>> He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty 
>> precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be 
>> best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.
>> 
>> 
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>> follow the directions.
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Bob W-PDML]

On 8 Mar 2018, at 21:45, John Francis  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:47:57PM -0500, John wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2018 15:27, Mark Roberts wrote:
>>> John wrote:
>>> 
 I think "French literature" is a euphemism for "dirty French Post Cards".
 
 For young American boys of a certain age, the lingerie section of the
 Sears Catalog had to suffice.
>>> 
>>> I think "Sears lingerie" has to be the least sexy sounding concept
>>> I've ever heard of.
>>> 
>> 
>> Boys had no internet back then. Where else were they going to find
>> pictures of (almost) nekkid women?
> 
> Health & Efficiency.
> 

They were completely nekkid! Let's all have a big hand for H&E, boys!


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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Bob W-PDML]

On 8 Mar 2018, at 19:34, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> 
> When I was learning photography and darkroom techniques I was studying long 
> division and reading the Hardy Boys. I was ten years old.

I read them when I was seven. 
In Sanskrit. 
During breaks in nuclear physics classes. 
That I was giving.

> 
> 
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
>> 
>> I think BobW and I are soul mates. When I was getting deeper into 
>> photography in High School, I was studying Latin, German, Old English, 
>> Physics, Calculus, and reading S.I. Hayakawa's treatise on general 
>> semantics, "Language in Thought and Action." I'd already signed off on the 
>> French as savages. 
>> 
>> G
>> —
>> "We all get to be young and foolish in our lives. If we survive that, we get 
>> to be old and foolish."
>> 
>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:50 AM, mike wilson  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Your masochism knows no bounds.
>>> 
 On 08 March 2018 at 16:36 Bob W-PDML  wrote:
 
 
 At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting to read 
 French literature...
 
> On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
> You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-)
> ...
> 
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
>> 
>> Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him 
>> feeling inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of 
>> existence, so anything by Pentax will do.
>> 
>> ...
>> 
>>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her 
>>> grandson. He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all 
>>> pretty precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may 
>>> not be best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.
>>> 
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Bob W-PDML]

You obviously know nothing of masochism and rope...

> On 8 Mar 2018, at 18:51, mike wilson  wrote:
> 
> Your masochism knows no bounds.
> 
>> On 08 March 2018 at 16:36 Bob W-PDML  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting to read 
>> French literature...
>> 
>>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
>>> 
>>> You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-)
>>> 
>>> When I was that age, I'd already bought my own first camera (a Minolta 16-P 
>>> which cost me the grand sum of $19 at Camera Craft in New Rochelle, NY), 
>>> having been given a couple of Kodak cameras before then. But I wanted 
>>> something more adjustable. My mother loaned me her Argus C3... with which I 
>>> learned a great deal about ruining film until I figured out how to work 
>>> aperture, shutter speed, and focus. AND remembered to wind on to the next 
>>> frame before re-cocking the shutter. 
>>> 
>>> There really isn't a modern equivalent. I'd never start a youngster on a 
>>> 35mm film camera nowadays, and any digital camera today has way more 
>>> capabilities and automation ... And the expectations of young people today 
>>> are quite different from my expectations of a camera in 1968. 
>>> 
>>> However, as a teacher of photography, my goal in getting people who are 
>>> interested started out is to let them begin with focus and understanding 
>>> light, and understanding the difference between what your eyes see and what 
>>> the camera might record. Nothing on the market today would start a young 
>>> person off with a better basic understanding of those things than an 
>>> instant film camera with manual focus, and it would also serve to give them 
>>> the immediate return on their effort that is so important to the learning 
>>> experience. Something like the Lomo Instant Square I obtained recently or a 
>>> Polaroid SX-70 with the Polaroid Original film would do a great job of 
>>> teaching these things, and would also be special, different, from the 
>>> smartphone experience in ways that would be beneficial to learning how to 
>>> be patient, how to be economical of exposures, and how to "look, think, and 
>>> consider" before shooting. 
>>> 
>>> G
>>> —
>>> No matter where you go, there you are.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
 
 Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him feeling 
 inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of existence, so 
 anything by Pentax will do.
 
 When I was about that age someone bought me an Instamatic, which quickly 
 frustrated me, but one of my schoolfriends had an Olympus Pen-F (the 
 half-frame one) and we could use the school darkroom, so I learned a bit 
 with that. There is a digital version now - something like that would 
 probably be good.
 
 B
 
> On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> 
> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson. 
> He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty 
> precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be 
> best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.
> 
> 
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Bob W-PDML]

That book looks fantastic - great idea. And I like Godfrey's idea too, despite 
my Jesuitical tendencies.

B

> On 8 Mar 2018, at 17:58, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> 
> But I liked Godfrey’s suggestion of instant photography. So I also 
> recommended one of the Fuji Instax cameras. A cheaper alternative that he 
> could have fun with and learn about composition, light, and exposure rather 
> than, as Ken says, "getting caught up in the technical side - f-stop, shutter 
> speed etc." 
> 
> I also recommended this book, based on Amazon reviews. 
> 
>  Seems to be specifically about photography rather than just technique.
> 
> 
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

Or National Geographic...

G
—
And you never had to hide a Nat Geo...

On Mar 8, 2018, at 1:44 PM, John Francis  wrote:

>>> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:47:57PM -0500, John wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2018 15:27, Mark Roberts wrote:
>>> John wrote:
>>> 
 I think "French literature" is a euphemism for "dirty French Post Cards".
 
 For young American boys of a certain age, the lingerie section of the
 Sears Catalog had to suffice.
>>> 
>>> I think "Sears lingerie" has to be the least sexy sounding concept
>>> I've ever heard of.
>>> 
>> 
>> Boys had no internet back then. Where else were they going to find
>> pictures of (almost) nekkid women?
> 
> Health & Efficiency.

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Re: Cameras for a kid

[John Francis]

On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:47:57PM -0500, John wrote:
> On 3/8/2018 15:27, Mark Roberts wrote:
> > John wrote:
> > 
> > > I think "French literature" is a euphemism for "dirty French Post Cards".
> > > 
> > > For young American boys of a certain age, the lingerie section of the
> > > Sears Catalog had to suffice.
> > 
> > I think "Sears lingerie" has to be the least sexy sounding concept
> > I've ever heard of.
> > 
> 
> Boys had no internet back then. Where else were they going to find
> pictures of (almost) nekkid women?

Health & Efficiency.


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Re: Cameras for a kid

[John]

On 3/8/2018 15:27, Mark Roberts wrote:

John wrote:


I think "French literature" is a euphemism for "dirty French Post Cards".

For young American boys of a certain age, the lingerie section of the
Sears Catalog had to suffice.


I think "Sears lingerie" has to be the least sexy sounding concept
I've ever heard of.
  



Boys had no internet back then. Where else were they going to find
pictures of (almost) nekkid women?

--
Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
Religion - Answers we must never question.

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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Bruce Walker]

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Steve Cottrell  wrote:
> On 8/3/18, Bob W-PDML, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>>When I was about that age someone bought me an Instamatic, which quickly
>>frustrated me, but one of my schoolfriends had an Olympus Pen-F (the
>>half-frame one) and we could use the school darkroom, so I learned a bit
>>with that. There is a digital version now - something like that would
>>probably be good.
>
> I have the Pen F - it's not cheap!!
>
> I would go for a used Fuji X-20 - brilliant camera to learn with.

I have one in like new condition that I'd be more than happy to part with.

-- 
-bmw

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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Bruce Walker]

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 3:27 PM, Mark Roberts  wrote:
> John wrote:
>
>>I think "French literature" is a euphemism for "dirty French Post Cards".
>>
>>For young American boys of a certain age, the lingerie section of the
>>Sears Catalog had to suffice.
>
> I think "Sears lingerie" has to be the least sexy sounding concept
> I've ever heard of.

I can confirm that it is.

-- 
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Mark Roberts]

John wrote:

>I think "French literature" is a euphemism for "dirty French Post Cards".
>
>For young American boys of a certain age, the lingerie section of the
>Sears Catalog had to suffice.

I think "Sears lingerie" has to be the least sexy sounding concept
I've ever heard of.
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





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Re: Cameras for a kid

[John]

Tom Corbett & the Space Rangers here. Might have already encountered
Asimov & Heinlein.

No darkroom I'm afraid, but I got my first camera at age nine, a
Brownie Hawkeye inherited when my Grandmother passed away. The Rexall
Drug Store down the street returned processed film & prints in about
5 working days.

On 3/8/2018 14:33, Paul Stenquist wrote:

When I was learning photography and darkroom techniques I was
studying long division and reading the Hardy Boys. I was ten years
old.



On Mar 8, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi
 wrote:

I think BobW and I are soul mates. When I was getting deeper into
photography in High School, I was studying Latin, German, Old
English, Physics, Calculus, and reading S.I. Hayakawa's treatise on
general semantics, "Language in Thought and Action." I'd already
signed off on the French as savages.

G — "We all get to be young and foolish in our lives. If we survive
that, we get to be old and foolish."


On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:50 AM, mike wilson
 wrote:

Your masochism knows no bounds.


On 08 March 2018 at 16:36 Bob W-PDML 
wrote:


At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting
to read French literature...


On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi 
wrote:

You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-) ...


On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML
 wrote:

Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will
leave him feeling inadequate, unloved and in despair at the
pointlessness of existence, so anything by Pentax will do.

...


On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir 
wrote:


A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera
for her grandson. He’s 12, intelligent, creative,
self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty precocious about many
things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be best,
but wondered what y’all might recommend.







--
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[John]

I think "French literature" is a euphemism for "dirty French Post Cards".

For young American boys of a certain age, the lingerie section of the
Sears Catalog had to suffice.

On 3/8/2018 14:26, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:

I think BobW and I are soul mates. When I was getting deeper into
photography in High School, I was studying Latin, German, Old
English, Physics, Calculus, and reading S.I. Hayakawa's treatise on
general semantics, "Language in Thought and Action." I'd already
signed off on the French as savages.

G — "We all get to be young and foolish in our lives. If we survive
that, we get to be old and foolish."


On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:50 AM, mike wilson 
wrote:

Your masochism knows no bounds.


On 08 March 2018 at 16:36 Bob W-PDML 
wrote:


At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting
to read French literature...


On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi 
wrote:

You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-) ...


On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML 
wrote:

Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will
leave him feeling inadequate, unloved and in despair at the
pointlessness of existence, so anything by Pentax will do.

...


On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir 
wrote:


A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for
her grandson. He’s 12, intelligent, creative,
self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty precocious about many
things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be best, but
wondered what y’all might recommend.







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Re: Cameras for a kid

[John]

Probably a smart phone. I don't think today's kids have much use for
real cameras.

OTOH, if the kid's really into science, he might be interested in film
and darkroom - in which case, a K1000 + SMC-P 50mm 1:1.4 might just
be the ticket.

If she wants him to jump right into digital, get him the cheapest Nikon
kit from Costco. Anything but Canon.

I think he'd probably get more out of the K1000, but I've been told
more than once that I'm out of touch with what kids are into today.
About all I do remember is how much it annoyed me when I was 12 to
have some geezer telling me what was "good for me".

Has she asked the grandson what kind of camera he wants?

On 3/8/2018 09:30, Eric Weir wrote:


A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her
grandson. He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all
pretty precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which
may not be best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.

-

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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Igor PDML-StR]

Eric,

“Alice: Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?
The Cheshire Cat: That depends a good deal on where you want to get to.
Alice: I don't much care where.
The Cheshire Cat: Then it doesn't much matter which way you go.
Alice: ...So long as I get somewhere.
The Cheshire Cat: Oh, you're sure to do that, if only you walk long enough.”

― Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the 
Looking-Glass



You described the boy, but it is important to know what (and why) he is 
interested w.r.t. photography. Has he expressed his interest toward 
photography? Or he just wants to have a camera to take cool selfies?
Has he taken any photos (e.g. with a phone or tablet)? Have you seen 
those? They might tell you some information...


The intent and desire to guide him by his parents/grandparents is also 
an important factor. (I am sure you can, but I don't know how close 
you are to your grand-nephew.)


As other people suggested, you probably want to challenge him and his 
curiosity. But you don't want to give him something from which he'd turn 
away immediately because it is not providing what he expects and wants.


If he is geeky and likes figuring out how things work, you may want to 
lean toward more manual-capable camera. If he doesn't care about that 
much, maybe you want to have a camera with automatic capabilities but to 
give options of manual settings.


And, you want the camera to be cool and produce cool results 
that he can brag about to his peers. I don't know what it would be for 
him. Maybe instant print as suggested by Godfrey would create that 
"coolness" factor (different from the mainstream, while providing 
immediate gratification).


I wouldn't jump into DSLR's. Whether to get a system with interchangeable 
lenses (e.g. micro-2/3) or not, - that would depend on the inclinations of 
the kiddo.
If yes, meaning that the kid is expected to be very interested (and I'd 
talk to him; at 12, he is grown up enough for that) and have sufficient
guidance, - I'd consider starting with a reasonable "normal" prime lens, 
adding a moderate zoom next, or the other way around.

Otherwise, starting with a P&S with plenty of manual controls might be
sufficient to see if the interest lasts.

HTH,

Igor


On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 9:30 AM, Eric Weir wrote:



A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson.
He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty
precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be
best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.


--
Eric Weir


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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Paul Stenquist]

Grace has done quite well with my old K7. I have a K5 with battery grip that’s 
looking for a new home.
Paul

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 12:57 PM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Ken Waller  wrote:
>> 
>> Eric, whatever you wind up with I'd suggest it have both auto capture mode 
>> and a manual mode. With auto he can learn some of the non technical parts of 
>> photography - composition, framing etc without getting caught up in the 
>> technical side - f-stop, shutter speed etc.
> 
> Thanks to all who have responded. Something I identified with or helpful in 
> all the responses. 
> 
> My first digital was an ist*D. I bought it because of a photo shown here that 
> was taken with one. (Prayer Service at St.Michaels. Don’t remember the 
> photographer.) 
> 
> In retrospect, it was my digital K-1000. My first thought was along the lines 
> of Bob’s suggestion, although with Fuji equipment rather than Olympus—Fuji 
> X-E2S with their XF 27 2.8 lens. 
> 
> But I liked Godfrey’s suggestion of instant photography. So I also 
> recommended one of the Fuji Instax cameras. A cheaper alternative that he 
> could have fun with and learn about composition, light, and exposure rather 
> than, as Ken says, "getting caught up in the technical side - f-stop, shutter 
> speed etc." 
> 
> I also recommended this book, based on Amazon reviews. 
> 
>  Seems to be specifically about photography rather than just technique.
> 
> --
> Eric Weir
> Decatur, GA  USA
> eew...@bellsouth.net
> 
> "What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, 
> men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." 
> 
> - Chief Seattle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Paul Stenquist]

When I was learning photography and darkroom techniques I was studying long 
division and reading the Hardy Boys. I was ten years old.


> On Mar 8, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
> I think BobW and I are soul mates. When I was getting deeper into photography 
> in High School, I was studying Latin, German, Old English, Physics, Calculus, 
> and reading S.I. Hayakawa's treatise on general semantics, "Language in 
> Thought and Action." I'd already signed off on the French as savages. 
> 
> G
> —
> "We all get to be young and foolish in our lives. If we survive that, we get 
> to be old and foolish."
> 
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:50 AM, mike wilson  wrote:
>> 
>> Your masochism knows no bounds.
>> 
>>> On 08 March 2018 at 16:36 Bob W-PDML  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting to read 
>>> French literature...
>>> 
 On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
 
 You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-)
 ...
 
> On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
> 
> Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him 
> feeling inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of 
> existence, so anything by Pentax will do.
> 
> ...
> 
>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson. 
>> He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty 
>> precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be 
>> best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Steve Cottrell]

On 8/3/18, Bob W-PDML, discombobulated, unleashed:

>When I was about that age someone bought me an Instamatic, which quickly
>frustrated me, but one of my schoolfriends had an Olympus Pen-F (the
>half-frame one) and we could use the school darkroom, so I learned a bit
>with that. There is a digital version now - something like that would
>probably be good.

I have the Pen F - it's not cheap!!

I would go for a used Fuji X-20 - brilliant camera to learn with.



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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

I think BobW and I are soul mates. When I was getting deeper into photography 
in High School, I was studying Latin, German, Old English, Physics, Calculus, 
and reading S.I. Hayakawa's treatise on general semantics, "Language in Thought 
and Action." I'd already signed off on the French as savages. 

G
—
"We all get to be young and foolish in our lives. If we survive that, we get to 
be old and foolish."

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:50 AM, mike wilson  wrote:
> 
> Your masochism knows no bounds.
> 
>> On 08 March 2018 at 16:36 Bob W-PDML  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting to read 
>> French literature...
>> 
>>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
>>> 
>>> You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-)
>>> ...
>>> 
 On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
 
 Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him feeling 
 inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of existence, so 
 anything by Pentax will do.
 
 ...
 
> On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> 
> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson. 
> He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty 
> precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be 
> best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.
> 


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Re: Cameras for a kid

[mike wilson]

Your masochism knows no bounds.

> On 08 March 2018 at 16:36 Bob W-PDML  wrote:
> 
> 
> At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting to read 
> French literature...
> 
> > On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> > 
> > You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-)
> > 
> > When I was that age, I'd already bought my own first camera (a Minolta 16-P 
> > which cost me the grand sum of $19 at Camera Craft in New Rochelle, NY), 
> > having been given a couple of Kodak cameras before then. But I wanted 
> > something more adjustable. My mother loaned me her Argus C3... with which I 
> > learned a great deal about ruining film until I figured out how to work 
> > aperture, shutter speed, and focus. AND remembered to wind on to the next 
> > frame before re-cocking the shutter. 
> > 
> > There really isn't a modern equivalent. I'd never start a youngster on a 
> > 35mm film camera nowadays, and any digital camera today has way more 
> > capabilities and automation ... And the expectations of young people today 
> > are quite different from my expectations of a camera in 1968. 
> > 
> > However, as a teacher of photography, my goal in getting people who are 
> > interested started out is to let them begin with focus and understanding 
> > light, and understanding the difference between what your eyes see and what 
> > the camera might record. Nothing on the market today would start a young 
> > person off with a better basic understanding of those things than an 
> > instant film camera with manual focus, and it would also serve to give them 
> > the immediate return on their effort that is so important to the learning 
> > experience. Something like the Lomo Instant Square I obtained recently or a 
> > Polaroid SX-70 with the Polaroid Original film would do a great job of 
> > teaching these things, and would also be special, different, from the 
> > smartphone experience in ways that would be beneficial to learning how to 
> > be patient, how to be economical of exposures, and how to "look, think, and 
> > consider" before shooting. 
> > 
> > G
> > —
> > No matter where you go, there you are.
> > 
> > 
> >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
> >> 
> >> Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him feeling 
> >> inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of existence, so 
> >> anything by Pentax will do.
> >> 
> >> When I was about that age someone bought me an Instamatic, which quickly 
> >> frustrated me, but one of my schoolfriends had an Olympus Pen-F (the 
> >> half-frame one) and we could use the school darkroom, so I learned a bit 
> >> with that. There is a digital version now - something like that would 
> >> probably be good.
> >> 
> >> B
> >> 
> >>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson. 
> >>> He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty 
> >>> precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be 
> >>> best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.
> >>>

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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Daniel J. Matyola]

Thanks for sharing that.


Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:

> At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting to read
> French literature...
>
>
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Eric Weir]

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Ken Waller  wrote:
> 
> Eric, whatever you wind up with I'd suggest it have both auto capture mode 
> and a manual mode. With auto he can learn some of the non technical parts of 
> photography - composition, framing etc without getting caught up in the 
> technical side - f-stop, shutter speed etc.

Thanks to all who have responded. Something I identified with or helpful in all 
the responses. 

My first digital was an ist*D. I bought it because of a photo shown here that 
was taken with one. (Prayer Service at St.Michaels. Don’t remember the 
photographer.) 

In retrospect, it was my digital K-1000. My first thought was along the lines 
of Bob’s suggestion, although with Fuji equipment rather than Olympus—Fuji 
X-E2S with their XF 27 2.8 lens. 

But I liked Godfrey’s suggestion of instant photography. So I also recommended 
one of the Fuji Instax cameras. A cheaper alternative that he could have fun 
with and learn about composition, light, and exposure rather than, as Ken says, 
"getting caught up in the technical side - f-stop, shutter speed etc." 

I also recommended this book, based on Amazon reviews. 

 Seems to be specifically about photography rather than just technique.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, 
men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." 

- Chief Seattle






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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Ken Waller]

Eric, whatever you wind up with I'd suggest it have both auto capture mode and 
a manual mode. With auto he can learn some of the non technical parts of 
photography - composition, framing etc without getting caught up in the 
technical side - f-stop, shutter speed etc.



-Original Message-
>From: Eric Weir 
>Subject: Cameras for a kid
>
>
>A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson. He’s 
>12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty precocious about 
>many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be best, but wondered what 
>y’all might recommend.
>
>--
>Eric Weir
>Decatur, GA  USA
>eew...@bellsouth.net
>
>"Imagining the other is a powerful antidote to fanaticism and hatred." 
>
>- Amos Oz


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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Bob W-PDML]

At the same time I was learning photography I was also starting to read French 
literature...

> On 8 Mar 2018, at 15:57, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
> You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-)
> 
> When I was that age, I'd already bought my own first camera (a Minolta 16-P 
> which cost me the grand sum of $19 at Camera Craft in New Rochelle, NY), 
> having been given a couple of Kodak cameras before then. But I wanted 
> something more adjustable. My mother loaned me her Argus C3... with which I 
> learned a great deal about ruining film until I figured out how to work 
> aperture, shutter speed, and focus. AND remembered to wind on to the next 
> frame before re-cocking the shutter. 
> 
> There really isn't a modern equivalent. I'd never start a youngster on a 35mm 
> film camera nowadays, and any digital camera today has way more capabilities 
> and automation ... And the expectations of young people today are quite 
> different from my expectations of a camera in 1968. 
> 
> However, as a teacher of photography, my goal in getting people who are 
> interested started out is to let them begin with focus and understanding 
> light, and understanding the difference between what your eyes see and what 
> the camera might record. Nothing on the market today would start a young 
> person off with a better basic understanding of those things than an instant 
> film camera with manual focus, and it would also serve to give them the 
> immediate return on their effort that is so important to the learning 
> experience. Something like the Lomo Instant Square I obtained recently or a 
> Polaroid SX-70 with the Polaroid Original film would do a great job of 
> teaching these things, and would also be special, different, from the 
> smartphone experience in ways that would be beneficial to learning how to be 
> patient, how to be economical of exposures, and how to "look, think, and 
> consider" before shooting. 
> 
> G
> —
> No matter where you go, there you are.
> 
> 
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
>> 
>> Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him feeling 
>> inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of existence, so 
>> anything by Pentax will do.
>> 
>> When I was about that age someone bought me an Instamatic, which quickly 
>> frustrated me, but one of my schoolfriends had an Olympus Pen-F (the 
>> half-frame one) and we could use the school darkroom, so I learned a bit 
>> with that. There is a digital version now - something like that would 
>> probably be good.
>> 
>> B
>> 
>>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson. 
>>> He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty 
>>> precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be 
>>> best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>> -- 
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>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
>> follow the directions.
> 
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Daniel J. Matyola]

I'd start with something like a WG-3, before moving to DSLR.


Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 9:30 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:

>
> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson.
> He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty
> precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be
> best, but wondered what y’all might recommend.
>
> 
> --
> Eric Weir
> Decatur, GA  USA
> eew...@bellsouth.net
>
> "Imagining the other is a powerful antidote to fanaticism and hatred."
>
> - Amos Oz
>
>
> --
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> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

You crack me up, Bob! That's a great line ...! :-)

When I was that age, I'd already bought my own first camera (a Minolta 16-P 
which cost me the grand sum of $19 at Camera Craft in New Rochelle, NY), having 
been given a couple of Kodak cameras before then. But I wanted something more 
adjustable. My mother loaned me her Argus C3... with which I learned a great 
deal about ruining film until I figured out how to work aperture, shutter 
speed, and focus. AND remembered to wind on to the next frame before re-cocking 
the shutter. 

There really isn't a modern equivalent. I'd never start a youngster on a 35mm 
film camera nowadays, and any digital camera today has way more capabilities 
and automation ... And the expectations of young people today are quite 
different from my expectations of a camera in 1968. 

However, as a teacher of photography, my goal in getting people who are 
interested started out is to let them begin with focus and understanding light, 
and understanding the difference between what your eyes see and what the camera 
might record. Nothing on the market today would start a young person off with a 
better basic understanding of those things than an instant film camera with 
manual focus, and it would also serve to give them the immediate return on 
their effort that is so important to the learning experience. Something like 
the Lomo Instant Square I obtained recently or a Polaroid SX-70 with the 
Polaroid Original film would do a great job of teaching these things, and would 
also be special, different, from the smartphone experience in ways that would 
be beneficial to learning how to be patient, how to be economical of exposures, 
and how to "look, think, and consider" before shooting. 

G
—
No matter where you go, there you are.


> On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
> 
> Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him feeling 
> inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of existence, so 
> anything by Pentax will do.
> 
> When I was about that age someone bought me an Instamatic, which quickly 
> frustrated me, but one of my schoolfriends had an Olympus Pen-F (the 
> half-frame one) and we could use the school darkroom, so I learned a bit with 
> that. There is a digital version now - something like that would probably be 
> good.
> 
> B
> 
>> On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson. 
>> He’s 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty 
>> precocious about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be best, 
>> but wondered what y’all might recommend.
>> 
>> --
>> 
> -- 
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Yolanda Rowe]

Hi, Eric:

My son started with a digital point & shoot. Once he was frustrated
with its limitations, I began teaching him with my *istDS in manual
mode. We'd go out and shoot the same things (both using the *istDS
bodies), and then compare the captures. To this day, he prefers the
*istDS body over any of the others I own (i.e., K10D, K20D, K-5, &
K-3). Mama's little Pentaxian (6'2") says the other cameras are "too
big", even without a battery grip.

I would have loved to have started him with my K1000, but there wasn't
a convenient and cost effective solution for processing. I used
smaller cards to teach him shot discipline.

Cheers,

Yonnie

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
>
> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson. He’s 
> 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty precocious 
> about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be best, but 
> wondered what y’all might recommend.
>
> --
> Eric Weir
> Decatur, GA  USA
> eew...@bellsouth.net
>
> "Imagining the other is a powerful antidote to fanaticism and hatred."
>
> - Amos Oz
>
>
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Re: Cameras for a kid

[Bob W-PDML]

Sounds like he needs an adult real-life lesson that will leave him feeling 
inadequate, unloved and in despair at the pointlessness of existence, so 
anything by Pentax will do.

When I was about that age someone bought me an Instamatic, which quickly 
frustrated me, but one of my schoolfriends had an Olympus Pen-F (the half-frame 
one) and we could use the school darkroom, so I learned a bit with that. There 
is a digital version now - something like that would probably be good.

B

> On 8 Mar 2018, at 14:31, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> 
> A sister has asked me for advice on a beginning camera for her grandson. He’s 
> 12, intelligent, creative, self-disciplined—all-in-all pretty precocious 
> about many things. I have my own thoughts, which may not be best, but 
> wondered what y’all might recommend.
> 
> --
> 
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