Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
I have three bodies: Super Program (TTL); Ricoh XR-2s (no TTL, no flash used), and Ricoh XR-P (TTL). I've been using a Ritz Quantaray QTB-9000A tilt/swivel/bounce flash with the SP. The beauty of a Quantaray modular flash (or ProMaster, the actual maker) is that you can use it in TTL on Pentax manual-focus, Pentax autofocus, and Ricoh manual focus by changing the $15 module. In fact, the Pentax and Ricoh manual-focus modules merged a while back; a single model covers both brands of manual-focus TTL body. The newer, motorized AF Quantarays and ProMasters are fully dedicated; they cannot be used on manual-focus Pentax (or Ricoh) bodies. Too bad, because these AF models--as well as AF models from Sigma and others--let you shoot with a 28mm lens without needing a diffuser. Some of the Quantarays and ProMasters do, too, but not the powerful tilt/swivel models, like mine. This evening I ordered a new Ricoh/Pentax module and a used QTB-9500A, which (unlike the older 9000) can be used with third-party quick-cycle external batteries. I also ordered a Quantaray off-camera flash bracket for $30. While I was at it, I ordered a pair of Omni-Bounce diffusers for my two Quantarays from Sto-Fen (http://www.stofen.com) for $20 each. I can now use the Quantaray/OmniBounce flash, on or off-camera, on my Pentax or my Ricoh TTL camera. I now have a spare flash for each TTL camera. And if I ever get an autofocus Pentax, a $15 module is all I'll need to buy. Anyone thinking of getting a high-end flash should check out a used unit. Used flashes seem to be a buyer's market; supply exceeds demand. I picked up my top-of-the-line 9500A for $30, about one-third the new price. Ritz Camera is at http://www.ritzcamera.com . ProMaster flash is at http://www.promaster.com/flashes.html . [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
The MZ-M does not support TTL flash of any kind. The rest of the MZ line should work with the 280 but I'd check the camera manual to be sure. At 05:58 PM 12/28/2002 -0800, you wrote: Hello All, Say, can someone tell me which current Pentax cameras can properly use a AF 280t or a AF 200t flash? I seem to remember an analog vs digital issue involved here, but I ignored that discussion as my gear is basically all screwmount. I was thinking of buying either a ZX-M or a ZX-5N and would hope one of these flashes would work with it. Maybe a ZX-L would be better if it accepts these flashes. Be kind, I am waiting for a crown to be put on a tooth in another week and am suffering through the temporary filling! Dave __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
Say, can someone tell me which current Pentax cameras can properly use a AF 280t or a AF 200t flash? I seem to remember an analog vs digital issue involved here, but I ignored that discussion as my gear is basically all screwmount. I was thinking of buying either a ZX-M or a ZX-5N and would hope one of these flashes would work with it. Maybe a ZX-L would be better if it accepts these flashes. ZX-M doesn't have TTL flash, although it still works with analog flashes in Auto mode. The flash capability issue with Pentax is the exact opppsite of Nikon. Pentax AF bodies (digital) can do TTL flash with all Pentax TTL flashes, analog or digital. However, Pentax manual focus bodies must use analog flashes to do TTL. All those Pentax flashes specifically designed for AF bodies won't do TTL flash on manual focus bodies. That means you can keep your 280T or 200T for any AF bodies you use. regards, Alan Chan _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
By all means, Boris Grin. I find I can help so rarely in here that when I can, I go overboard. Wifey, BTW, _loves_ her ZX-L. Even the complications (lotsa stuff for a mid-to-low-level cost). Listen to Boris. He SHOOTS with it. Boris Liberman wrote: > > May I say a word, though you turn to Lon? Thanks :).
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
Chris, The lens you had trouble with was indoubtably a PKA/R mount. The R part of the mount is indeed the flange that gets stuck in the Pentax power zoom contact. THe R prart, if I remember right, was created by Rioch when they adapted the K-mount to their camera's prior to the Pentax AF lenses and camera line. Chris Brogden wrote: On Sun, 29 Dec 2002, Boris Liberman wrote: I happen to own ZX-L. I am not very good in flash photography so I skip the flash part. As for the older lenses, ZX-L accepts all, I repeat, all K-mount lenses. Essentially true, but with one big caveat. Some older third-party lenses may lock onto an MZ/ZX series body. I'm not sure how to identify these lenses visually, but I understand it has something to do with a piece on the lens getting stuck in a slot on the camera's lens mount meant for a power zoom contact. Or something like that. Happened to me once when I was demo'ing the great compatibility of Pentax's AF bodies with older K-mount lenses. Oops. chris -- William Kane http://www.KaneScience.com IABT Advisory Board Member http://www.iabt.net Tinley Park High School 6111 W. 175th Street Tinley Park, IL 60477 V: 708/532-1900 ext 3909 http://www.bhsd228.com
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
Here's a question I've been pondering lately: How, exactly, does TTL flash metering work? Obviously, the light meter in the camera takes readings "through the lens" and passes that information to the flash. But flash exposure is very dependent on distance. For any given flash output really close objects will be overexposed and very distant objects will be underexposed, while objects some distance in between will be properly exposed. So what I'm wondering is, how does TTL flash work without the flash having any information about the distance to the objects being illuminated? I have no doubt that it *does* work; I've been getting quite good at outdoor fill flash lately, using either the PZ-1p or MZ-S with an AF400FTZ. I'd just to know why what I'm doing works as well as it does. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >So what I'm wondering is, how does TTL flash work without the flash having any information about the distance to the objects being illuminated?< it does on an AF body. the camera knows how far away it focused on something. Herb
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
On Sun, 29 Dec 2002, Herb Chong wrote: > >So what I'm wondering is, how does TTL flash work without the flash > >having any information about the distance to the objects being > >illuminated? > it does on an AF body. the camera knows how far away it focused on > something. But this distance info is not used in Pentax TTL or P-TTL flash system. The original TTL does not need distance info (see Bob S. reply on the same thread for how TTL works). P-TTL uses a pre-flash and the 6 segment metering; and it is also lens type independent. One of the flash systems I know of which uses distance info is Nikon's 3D Matrix flash system. -- --Lawrence Kwan--SMS Info Service/Ringtone Convertor--PGP:finger/www-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.vex.net/~lawrence/ -Key ID:0x6D23F3C4--
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
It works pretty much the way ttl metering works without flash. Segmented metering will do some kind of magic based on a proprietary algorithm to properly expose what it thinks is important. Cameras like the LX with only center weighted metering simply quench the flash when they average 18% grey. Distance is un-important it's the amount of light reaching the film. At 07:35 PM 12/29/2002 -0500, you wrote: Here's a question I've been pondering lately: How, exactly, does TTL flash metering work? Obviously, the light meter in the camera takes readings "through the lens" and passes that information to the flash. But flash exposure is very dependent on distance. For any given flash output really close objects will be overexposed and very distant objects will be underexposed, while objects some distance in between will be properly exposed. So what I'm wondering is, how does TTL flash work without the flash having any information about the distance to the objects being illuminated? I have no doubt that it *does* work; I've been getting quite good at outdoor fill flash lately, using either the PZ-1p or MZ-S with an AF400FTZ. I'd just to know why what I'm doing works as well as it does. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
>Think of it like this. Your flash has only one brightness level, not like a >three way lamp in your house. It always puts out light at the same rate. >TTL simply controls how long the lamp stays on. If the object is close by, >the lamp is shut off quickly thru the marvels of electronics. The returning >light is measured thru the lens and the camera's sensor sends the quench >signal to the flash. > >If the object is far away, the lamp is kept burning until it gets enough >light back thru the lens, or the flash runs out of juice (electricity). So >the process is similar. The in camera sensor counts the light returning >until it sees enough illumination, then sends the quench signal to the flash. > >With TTL, I've found that you can be too close, especially in Macro. The >flash is so close to the subject, that it needs to be shut down >immediately. >The electronics isn't fast enough to quench it this quickly and things get >overexposed. This is a nice way of explaining it, Bob. Another brand of camera who shall remain nameless puts 2 flashes together, one after the other in rapid succession. Here's what happens: the shutter button is pressed, the mirror swings up, flash one fires, a TTL reading is taken of the scene and the flash is quenched, the image is analysed and the exposure assessed depending on whether spot/center-weighted/matrix mode is chosen, any necessary adjustment is made to flash duration, shutter blades open, second flash fires and exposure is made onto chip/film, shutter closes, end of sequence. This happens so fast, I did not realise it was happening until I read it. The 2 flashes are almost impossible to seperate, and the exposures are usually flawless. Bounce flash, white ceiling at 7'6" height, camera about 4 feet off the floor, flash directed at ceiling slightly in front of camera, cam to subject distance about 8 to ten feet or so. And my oh my, a square crop! http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps/portraits/images/pic18.html (NB image prepared on a Mac, but brightness level determined as a compromise between PC and Mac gamma. If viewing on a PC, it may look slightly dark, on a Mac, slightly bright. Take my word, it's all there ;-) However, it is not flawless and sometimes spuriously underexposes, having to dial in a couple of stops of compensation. The only thing I would add to Bob's explanation is that some flash units will allow a flash setting (usually manual) that provides for a flash burst with reduced intensity, say about a quarter-power if you like. The AF280T is a good example with the H and L settings on manual. .02, Cotty Oh, swipe me! He paints with light! http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps/ Free UK Macintosh Classified Ads at http://www.macads.co.uk/
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
Cotty, Good addition. I think this is how anybody doing Matrix Metered TTL flash must operate. What is amazing is the time scales here. 1/10,000's of a second look like minutes to the electronics. So they light the scene, take a meter reading, evaluate it, and then set the appropriate power output. All in the twinkle of an eye. Does the new Pentax do matrix TTL metering? Regards, Bob S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Another brand of camera who shall remain nameless puts 2 flashes > together, one after the other in rapid succession. > > Here's what happens: the shutter button is pressed, the mirror swings up, > flash one fires, a TTL reading is taken of the scene and the flash is > quenched, the image is analysed and the exposure assessed depending on > whether spot/center-weighted/matrix mode is chosen, any necessary > adjustment is made to flash duration, shutter blades open, second flash > fires and exposure is made onto chip/film, shutter closes, end of > sequence. > > This happens so fast, I did not realise it was happening until I read it. > The 2 flashes are almost impossible to seperate, and the exposures are > usually flawless. Bounce flash, white ceiling at 7'6" height, camera > about 4 feet off the floor, flash directed at ceiling slightly in front > of camera, cam to subject distance about 8 to ten feet or so. And my oh > my, a square crop! > > http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps/portraits/images/pic18.html
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Think of it like this. Your flash has only one brightness level, not like a >three way lamp in your house. It always puts out light at the same rate. >TTL simply controls how long the lamp stays on. If the object is close by, >the lamp is shut off quickly thru the marvels of electronics. That's the part I'm interested in: How does the system know if the object is close by? > The returning >light is measured thru the lens and the camera's sensor sends the quench >signal to the flash. How could the returning light from the flash be measured through the lens? (I'm not using an LX) -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
Lawrence Kwan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On Sun, 29 Dec 2002, Herb Chong wrote: >> >So what I'm wondering is, how does TTL flash work without the flash >> >having any information about the distance to the objects being >> >illuminated? >> it does on an AF body. the camera knows how far away it focused on >> something. > >But this distance info is not used in Pentax TTL or P-TTL flash system. >The original TTL does not need distance info Also, in many cases (most, for me) the subject being illuminated is not at the distance at which the lens is focussed (it's usually much closer for outdoor fill flash). -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Another brand of camera who shall remain nameless puts 2 flashes >together, one after the other in rapid succession. > >Here's what happens: the shutter button is pressed, the mirror swings up, >flash one fires, a TTL reading is taken of the scene So a TTL reading is taken while the mirror is up? I assume then that we're talking about a camera that does off-the-film metering. I'm concerned with how TTL flash metering works in my PZ-1p and MZ-S, neither of which do OTF metering or a pre-shutter-firing test flash (I believe this is P-TTL with the AF360FTG), yet both cameras seem to meter flash very well. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
RE: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
> -Original Message- > From: Raimo Korhonen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Except if it reads OTF - which I find more probable. MZ-S > has black shutter curtains which is not good for any light > measurement. It has to be off the film. If not, the flash would be firing while the shutter is closed which wouldn't make any sense except possibly in the case of the pre-fire of the AF360. tv
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
>What is amazing is the time scales here. 1/10,000's of a >second look like minutes to the electronics. So they light the scene, take a >meter reading, evaluate it, and then set the appropriate power output. All >in the twinkle of an eye. Hi Bob. Yah. It's serious stuff, isn't it! Aside from P-TTL, the other feature that I'm trying to get my head around is high speed flash sync, whereby the use of any shutter speed (focal plane shutter) can be used with flash. My understanding is that the actual second flash duration is lengthened considerably to accomodate a shutter exposure of anything between (in my case) 200th sec and 4000th. So: the button is pressed, the mirror pops up, the pre-flash fires, the exposure is read and calculated, any adjustments are made to the flash, (then, crucially) the second flash fires and continues to fire while the shutter opens, the exposure is made, the shutter closes, and finally the second flash finishes. This is the only way that I can see how flash can be used with a speed, say, of 1/1000th sec. So, I assume that for any given exposure with the flash switched to high speed sync, the flash power must be reduced to compensate for the necessary longer duration. If the normal flash duration is 1/15,000 sec (say) at X power, then in high speed sync mode the flash duration must be increased to about 1/200th sec (my normal flash sync speed) at Y power (which would be less powerful I presume). This would then be able to cope with any exposure faster than normal flash sync speed of the camera up to the fastest shutter speed of the camera. I also presume this method will be that employed by any camera/flash manufacturer. Anybody know if I'm still on track here, or have I hit a patch of oil and heading for the scene of th accident? Regards, Cotty Oh, swipe me! He paints with light! http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps/ Free UK Macintosh Classified Ads at http://www.macads.co.uk/
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
>So a TTL reading is taken while the mirror is up? I assume then that we're >talking about a camera that does off-the-film metering. I'm concerned with >how TTL flash metering works in my PZ-1p and MZ-S, neither of which do OTF >metering or a pre-shutter-firing test flash (I believe this is P-TTL with >the AF360FTG), yet both cameras seem to meter flash very well. My D60 has a small meter dedicated to just the flash, metering TTL before exposure - I assume that Pentax cameras with this facility must also have a dedicated meter? Cotty Oh, swipe me! He paints with light! http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps/ Free UK Macintosh Classified Ads at http://www.macads.co.uk/
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
Cotty, I can't say for sure how high speed synchro flash modes work. My guess would be something like this for film cameras... Because the camera gets to 1/1,000 or 1/4,000 of a second exposure by using a narrower and narrower slit that travels across the face of the film (1st to 2nd shutter curtain distance), I would pulse the flash. Say I used 200 (or 2,000) pulses of flash in that 1/4,000 of a second. I could get about any exposure I wanted and the illumination would end up being even because I fired the flash when the slit was at the top of the film and at the bottom and everywhere in between. Kind of a strobe, but very fast. I wouldn't have to get the mechanical parts to be perfect, there could be some slop in when the flash started and ended. Just so long as the flash was pulsing when the slit first opened until it finally closed. Regards, Bob S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > So: the button is pressed, the mirror pops up, the pre-flash fires, the > exposure is read and calculated, any adjustments are made to the flash, > (then, crucially) the second flash fires and continues to fire while the > shutter opens, the exposure is made, the shutter closes, and finally the > second flash finishes. > > This is the only way that I can see how flash can be used with a speed, > say, of 1/1000th sec. So, I assume that for any given exposure with the > flash switched to high speed sync, the flash power must be reduced to > compensate for the necessary longer duration. > > If the normal flash duration is 1/15,000 sec (say) at X power, then in > high speed sync mode the flash duration must be increased to about > 1/200th sec (my normal flash sync speed) at Y power (which would be less > powerful I presume). This would then be able to cope with any exposure > faster than normal flash sync speed of the camera up to the fastest > shutter speed of the camera. I also presume this method will be that > employed by any camera/flash manufacturer. > > Anybody know if I'm still on track here, or have I hit a > patch of oil and heading for the scene of th accident?
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
Hi Lon, >> The only thing I would add to Bob's explanation is that some flash units >> will allow a flash setting (usually manual) that provides for a flash >> burst with reduced intensity, say about a quarter-power if you like. The >> AF280T is a good example with the H and L settings on manual. > >Cotty, > >Of course I want to know your opinions on Pi, irrational numbers, and >the pluperfect subjective tense. But also Don't get me started! >Don't you use the L setting on the AF280T often just to get a bit of >sparkle in the eyes? I seem to remember reading that in one of the >weeks in which PDML, for some reason, wasn't struggling with larger >issues. How far away, typically, gives good results? Yah, I used a 280T on an LX for fill-in with a modified switch inspired by Steve Larson. I found that setting the flash on MS-L and using it in conjunction with a normally metered shot, say of a person about 6 to 10 feet away, produced just enough fill to lose the black holes under the eyebrows. BTW, the only Pi I like is filled with cherries :-) Cotty PS: >Hi speed synch is a series of very rapid bursts. >Each drains the capacitor a bit, so you must be closer >to your subject than the max flash distance. A lot closer. Aha! I like a good light show. Thanx. Oh, swipe me! He paints with light! http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps/ Free UK Macintosh Classified Ads at http://www.macads.co.uk/
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Cotty wrote: > Aside from P-TTL, the other feature that I'm trying to get my head > around is high speed flash sync, So: the button is pressed, the mirror > pops up, the pre-flash fires, the exposure is read and calculated, any > adjustments are made to the flash, (then, crucially) the second flash > fires and continues to fire while the For P-TTL, the first pre-flash occurs *before* the mirror swings up. It uses the viewfinder's 6 segment metering to calculate the exposure (not possible once the mirror swings up); and the usual off-the-film TTL flash sensor in the mirror box is not used. Once the exposure is set, the mirror pops up, shutter opens and the main flash is fired at the preset level. High speed sync works closely with P-TTL with the same pre-flash; then after the mirror pops up, the flash fires in a series of multiple bursts as the shutter blades sweep across the film. -- --Lawrence Kwan--SMS Info Service/Ringtone Convertor--PGP:finger/www-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.vex.net/~lawrence/ -Key ID:0x6D23F3C4--
Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
>My guess would be something like this for film cameras... >Because the camera gets to 1/1,000 or 1/4,000 of a second exposure by >using a narrower and narrower slit that travels across the face of the >film (1st to 2nd shutter curtain distance), I would pulse the flash. Say >I used 200 (or 2,000) pulses of flash in that 1/4,000 of a second. I >could get about any exposure I wanted and the illumination would end up >being even because I fired the flash when the slit was at the top of the >film and at the bottom and everywhere in between. Kind of a strobe, but >very fast. I wouldn't have to get the mechanical parts to be perfect, >there could be some slop in when the flash started and ended. Just so >long as the flash was pulsing when the slit first opened until it finally >closed. That sounds a perfectly good explanation to me. I'll buy it. You take Paypal? :-) Cot Oh, swipe me! He paints with light! http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps/ Free UK Macintosh Classified Ads at http://www.macads.co.uk/
Re: Re: Current Cameras with TTL Flash Metering?
Humm. Thanks Cotty.I think you may have answered part of my fill flash question i just asked on the list.(not all but part) BTW is that picture from the D60? Dave Begin Original Message From: Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The only thing I would add to Bob's explanation is that some flash units will allow a flash setting (usually manual) that provides for a flash burst with reduced intensity, say about a quarter-power if you like. The AF280T is a good example with the H and L settings on manual. .02, Cotty Oh, swipe me! He paints with light! http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps/ Free UK Macintosh Classified Ads at http://www.macads.co.uk/ End Original Message Pentax User Stouffville Ontario Canada "Art needs to be in a frame.That way we know when the art stops and the wall begins"--Frank Zappa http://home.ca.inter.net/brooksdj/ http://brooks1952.tripod.com/myhorses Sign up today for your Free E-mail at: http://www.canoe.ca/CanoeMail
