subject:"Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism"

On Apr 13, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Jim King wrote:

> Larry Colen wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:18:16 -0700
> 
> (snip)
> 
>> I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for 
>> annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than 
>> other brands, but cost so much less.
> 
> Hah! I was hoping that someone other than me might be wondering about the 
> same thing.

My dad used to bemoan "slob appeal" as much as he decried "snob appeal".  

> 
> Actually, I'm a little disappointed that so much of the commentary on this 
> post has centered on form rather than substance...

I think that in large part this is because  the post itself was more about form 
than substance. He was lauding the craftsmanship and deriding professionalism, 
without regard to the quality of the final product. A craftsman is someone who 
makes the best possible use of his tools, whether it's a handplane, table saw, 
slide rule, or an optics modeling program running on hardware that would have 
given Seymour Cray a priapism.

--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est

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Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]

2011-04-13 Thread Stan Halpin


On Apr 13, 2011, at 11:01 PM, steve harley wrote:

> On 2011-04-13 19:44 , drd1...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I've been trying to do this myself with cheap readers with mixed success. I 
>> guess I may need a pro.
> 
> i use 1.25 regular "readers" (which i even need for distance viewing), but i 
> prefer 1.50 for my computer displays (which are more than an arm's length 
> away) and especially for reading my iPhone
> 
Are you sure you don't have that reversed? I use 1.75 or 2.0 for reading, but a 
1.50 for the more distant computer screen.

stan
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Stan Halpin

On Apr 13, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Jim King wrote:

> Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:25:25 -0700
>> [Much commentary clipped from the original]

>> Equipment cannot make photographs. Only people can. People with eyes,
>> sensitivity, and skill to know how to work the equipment. Truly
>> ..."equipment often gets in the way of Photography."
> 
> Well said, Godders.  I'd like to hear more comments in this vein from other 
> regulars here.
> 
> Regards, Jim
> -- 
> 
Jim, I read this piece last night (after W. Robb kindly pointed out how I 
needed to access the site. Duh.)

My recollection/interpretation of the key points the author was making is as 
follows:
a. Close enough is good enough. Set the camera for the conditions and take 
photos already.
b. Intuition is better than logic. Well, he doesn't actually say that, but the 
whole lens-design bit about how good experienced lens designers can do better 
than a computer program is in that same vein.

I agree with (a). I think we all (except Bob W. and Frank) sometimes let 
ourselves be driven by a fascination with the electromechanical gee-whiziness 
of our cameras, and we strive for vanishingly small degrees of precision in 
aspects like exposure, color balance, focus etc., thereby losing some ability 
to see, to visualize, and to create an image that we and others will care 
about. Trust me; the research on cognition clearly shows that we have limited 
capacity, and attending to technical details must diminish the extent to which 
we are attending to the image as image.

I disagree with (b). Intuitive decisions are no better than logical decisions; 
see Chapter 7 in my 2009 book on developing leaders for links to relevant 
research. I would agree that an experienced designer is far more likely to 
generate an innovative solution than an inexperienced designer, but the tools 
they use will have no bearing on the outcome. A designer who has grown up on 
CAD/CAM and who is good at his job is just as likely to be good as is a 
designer who grew up grinding lenses by hand using polishing cloths made from 
passenger pigeon skins. Actually, the modern designer is likely to have an edge 
since he can try more iterations and hence has more trial-and-error learning 
opportunities.

My general assessment is that the author is a romantic, yearning for the good 
old days when life was simple. It is unfortunate that he picks on a particular 
consumer product as the focus of his discussion, because it leads people to 
talk about the goodness and badness of Leicas more than the merits of his 
apparent assumption that things used to be simple and are no longer so. 

BTW, i recently had my father-in-law's M-2 refurbished, torn shutter curtain 
repaired, etc. It sits here on the shelf by my desk. Every time I pick it up I 
am surprised by what a large heavy unwieldy camera it is. It may be simple, but 
it is pretty primitive. For usability I'll take a Minox EL, Olympus OM-1, 
Pentax ME-Super, LX, or MZ-S any day. And of course the current generation 
DSLRs provide so much more functionality than the Leicas ever had. And they 
allow us to take pretty good images as long as we remember that close enough is 
good enough.

stan
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism


On 4/13/2011 5:14 PM, Bob W wrote:

Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has
provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at
least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old,
unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3.  However given the
subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and
dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the
racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van.

I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it
was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52
years old.

I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all
respects expect brickiness.


But it truly excels at brickiness...


B





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Where's the Kaboom?  There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom!

--Marvin the Martian.


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Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]

2011-04-13 Thread steve harley


On 2011-04-13 19:44 , drd1...@gmail.com wrote:

I've been trying to do this myself with cheap readers with mixed success. I 
guess I may need a pro.


i use 1.25 regular "readers" (which i even need for distance viewing), 
but i prefer 1.50 for my computer displays (which are more than an arm's 
length away) and especially for reading my iPhone


if your prescription seems compatible with reading glasses, but you have 
difficulty with off-the-shelf readers you may need to better match your 
pupil distance; i haven't needed to, but i got the idea from here:




personally my favorite readers have come from icu, both retail and 
online (icueyewear.com)


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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Paul Stenquist


On Apr 13, 2011, at 10:33 PM, William Robb wrote:

> On 13/04/2011 8:18 PM, Matthew Hunt wrote:
> 
>> I'm a computer geek. Photo editing is not the driver of my hardware
>> purchases; my old Athlon 64 ran Bibble just fine. My marginal cost has
>> been Bibble Lite at $99 and IMatch at whatever it cost (<$100), four
>> years ago when I bought my K10D. I'm likely to buy Lightroom in the
>> next year, at $250, or less if a good sale comes up. None of my
>> software is pirated.
> 
> 
>> I spent metric fuckloads of time cutting and sleeving film and putting
>> it in binders and spotting prints and writing down the way that I
>> printed everything, trying to sketch my dodging and burning and
>> recording my times and temperatures. I don't miss it.
>> 
> 
> I would say you are the exception, not the rule.

Much of my photo work was in the digital world long before I quit shooting 
film, The sensor of the digital camera merely replaced the scanning operation. 
That had become true for anyone whose photographic ambitions extended beyond 
personal enjoyment.
Paul
> 
> -- 
> 
> William Robb
> 
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Matthew Hunt

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:33 PM, William Robb
 wrote:

> I would say you are the exception, not the rule.

I would say that you are older than I am.

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism


On 13/04/2011 8:18 PM, Matthew Hunt wrote:


I'm a computer geek. Photo editing is not the driver of my hardware
purchases; my old Athlon 64 ran Bibble just fine. My marginal cost has
been Bibble Lite at $99 and IMatch at whatever it cost (<$100), four
years ago when I bought my K10D. I'm likely to buy Lightroom in the
next year, at $250, or less if a good sale comes up. None of my
software is pirated.




I spent metric fuckloads of time cutting and sleeving film and putting
it in binders and spotting prints and writing down the way that I
printed everything, trying to sketch my dodging and burning and
recording my times and temperatures. I don't miss it.



I would say you are the exception, not the rule.

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Matthew Hunt

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:08 PM, William Robb
 wrote:

> Out of curiosity, what have you spent on computers, storage media and
> software (be honest, what would you have spent if you hadn't stolen your
> software, for example)

I'm a computer geek. Photo editing is not the driver of my hardware
purchases; my old Athlon 64 ran Bibble just fine. My marginal cost has
been Bibble Lite at $99 and IMatch at whatever it cost (<$100), four
years ago when I bought my K10D. I'm likely to buy Lightroom in the
next year, at $250, or less if a good sale comes up. None of my
software is pirated.

> How much of your life have you wasted squinting at a computer screen when
> you could have just picked up a box of slides?

I spent metric fuckloads of time cutting and sleeving film and putting
it in binders and spotting prints and writing down the way that I
printed everything, trying to sketch my dodging and burning and
recording my times and temperatures. I don't miss it.

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism


On 13/04/2011 2:18 PM, Larry Colen wrote:






I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for 
annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than 
other brands, but cost so much less.



Just the lenses. The bodies are, for the most part, pretty crappy 
compared to what else is out there.


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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism


On 13/04/2011 1:48 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

MARK!

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:


The stereotypical Leica owner does have a reputation for being a Puts, though 
it's usually spelled a little differently.


Please no. I just read the online version of the 2011 PDML annual, and 
the quotations list has gone from a page of pithy comments to several 
pages of absolute shit with the occasional gobbet of something noteworthy.

Larry's comment is merely derogatory, not noteworthy.
Trust me, I know the difference.

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism


On 13/04/2011 12:36 PM, Matthew Hunt wrote:

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Bob W  wrote:




While it would be nice for a camera to last forever, I don't see much
to complain about in relation to the days of film.

My K10D is 4 years old. It still works fine. I want a K-5, but only
because the K-5 is better, not because the K10D is any worse than when
I got it.

In the 4 years I've had my K10D, I estimate that I would have spent
about $3,000 in film and processing to take the same number of
exposures on film. So if my K10D dies today, why should I complain
about the cost of a new body?

If periodic replacement/upgrade of digital bodies isn't cheaper than
shooting film, then either you're spending too much on the bodies
(*cough* Leica *cough*) or you're not taking enough pictures (*cough*
collectors *cough*).



Everyone who feels the need to justify digital trots out that canardy 
old nag at least one in the discussion.
It really has no bearing on how long a camera should last if you buy a 
good one.


Out of curiosity, what have you spent on computers, storage media and 
software (be honest, what would you have spent if you hadn't stolen your 
software, for example)
How much of your life have you wasted squinting at a computer screen 
when you could have just picked up a box of slides?


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William Robb

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Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]

2011-04-13 Thread drd1135

I've been trying to do this myself with cheap readers with mixed success. I 
guess I may need a pro. 
-Original Message-
From: Bruce Walker 
Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:37:16 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]

Yes, in the following sense.  My optometrist asks me what my intended 
use for the glasses is, I say "computer monitor", he gets me to sit in 
front of an LCD monitor as I would normally, measures distances and 
adjusts the prescription accordingly. Voila! "monitor glasses".

I did have to change optometrists when the crusty old guy couldn't 
understand my request. The new guy said, of course! Knew exactly what I 
was complaining about.

-bmw

On 11-04-13 9:31 PM, drd1...@gmail.com wrote:
> Are there monitor glasses?
> -Original Message-
> From: Bruce Walker
> Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net
> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:25:06
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]
>
> On 11-04-13 8:39 PM, Steven Desjardins wrote:
>> Sigh.  Make that "made without computer help".  It's hard to find
>> reading glasses that focus well for me on computer screens.
> Don't bother -- get two pairs of glasses: readers and computer. That's
> what I concluded and it works well.  Reading glasses are focused closer
> than monitor glasses.
>
> -bmw
>


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Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]

2011-04-13 Thread Bruce Walker

Yes, in the following sense.  My optometrist asks me what my intended 
use for the glasses is, I say "computer monitor", he gets me to sit in 
front of an LCD monitor as I would normally, measures distances and 
adjusts the prescription accordingly. Voila! "monitor glasses".


I did have to change optometrists when the crusty old guy couldn't 
understand my request. The new guy said, of course! Knew exactly what I 
was complaining about.


-bmw

On 11-04-13 9:31 PM, drd1...@gmail.com wrote:

Are there monitor glasses?
-Original Message-
From: Bruce Walker
Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:25:06
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]

On 11-04-13 8:39 PM, Steven Desjardins wrote:

Sigh.  Make that "made without computer help".  It's hard to find
reading glasses that focus well for me on computer screens.

Don't bother -- get two pairs of glasses: readers and computer. That's
what I concluded and it works well.  Reading glasses are focused closer
than monitor glasses.

-bmw




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Re: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]

2011-04-13 Thread drd1135

Are there monitor glasses?
-Original Message-
From: Bruce Walker 
Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:25:06 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]

On 11-04-13 8:39 PM, Steven Desjardins wrote:
> Sigh.  Make that "made without computer help".  It's hard to find
> reading glasses that focus well for me on computer screens.

Don't bother -- get two pairs of glasses: readers and computer. That's 
what I concluded and it works well.  Reading glasses are focused closer 
than monitor glasses.

-bmw

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread drd1135

I forgot Bob's comment about Gallia.  Thanks for pointing that out. 
-Original Message-
From: steve harley 
Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 19:22:20 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

On 2011-04-12 20:58 , Jim King wrote:
> This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will 
> for some of you as well:
>
> http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\

okay -- i'll bite; i find Erwin Puts' essay to wishy-washy; it's 
internally contradictory; he seems to romanticize film process as if it 
were purely intuitive, yet he then warns against "common sense"

Puts seems to define professionalism as technical mastery (to me it is 
as much about ethics, efficiency and emotional detachment), but 
accepting his definition, i would disagree with him overall that 
technical mastery must conflict with craft

this is hardly unique to photography -- i think of how a grounding in 
CPU instruction sets and binary logic, of which i'm rarely conscious 
these days, gave me confidence and trained my mind for much more 
abstract programming; and i think of how my rudimentary technical 
knowledge of sailing has held me back despite a strong intuitive sense 
of the helm from an entire teen-hood of intense practice

i think there are many valid paths; one wonders if Puts' self-expressed 
attunement to film and exposure came about without any rigorous 
technical work ... that can happen, but when it does it usually comes 
from intense, if intuitive, practice and/or that unconscious genius 
which silently computes and internalizes technical knowledge for a few 
lucky people (as it struck me when Bob Sullivan recently commented that 
Gallia's "gonna be mighty good by the time she's a teenager, and she 
won't really know why.")

so genius can "take care of it", practice can breed intuition without 
technical understanding, and study of details can allow one to rise 
above details; or any combination thereof



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Glasses [Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism]

2011-04-13 Thread Bruce Walker


On 11-04-13 8:39 PM, Steven Desjardins wrote:

Sigh.  Make that "made without computer help".  It's hard to find
reading glasses that focus well for me on computer screens.


Don't bother -- get two pairs of glasses: readers and computer. That's 
what I concluded and it works well.  Reading glasses are focused closer 
than monitor glasses.


-bmw

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread steve harley


On 2011-04-12 20:58 , Jim King wrote:

This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for 
some of you as well:

http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\


okay -- i'll bite; i find Erwin Puts' essay to wishy-washy; it's 
internally contradictory; he seems to romanticize film process as if it 
were purely intuitive, yet he then warns against "common sense"


Puts seems to define professionalism as technical mastery (to me it is 
as much about ethics, efficiency and emotional detachment), but 
accepting his definition, i would disagree with him overall that 
technical mastery must conflict with craft


this is hardly unique to photography -- i think of how a grounding in 
CPU instruction sets and binary logic, of which i'm rarely conscious 
these days, gave me confidence and trained my mind for much more 
abstract programming; and i think of how my rudimentary technical 
knowledge of sailing has held me back despite a strong intuitive sense 
of the helm from an entire teen-hood of intense practice


i think there are many valid paths; one wonders if Puts' self-expressed 
attunement to film and exposure came about without any rigorous 
technical work ... that can happen, but when it does it usually comes 
from intense, if intuitive, practice and/or that unconscious genius 
which silently computes and internalizes technical knowledge for a few 
lucky people (as it struck me when Bob Sullivan recently commented that 
Gallia's "gonna be mighty good by the time she's a teenager, and she 
won't really know why.")


so genius can "take care of it", practice can breed intuition without 
technical understanding, and study of details can allow one to rise 
above details; or any combination thereof




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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

Sigh.  Make that "made without computer help".  It's hard to find
reading glasses that focus well for me on computer screens.

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Steven Desjardins  wrote:
>     Well, one problem with his arguments is figuring out what the
> hell his arguments are.  Numbers aren't everything? Absolutely.  Any
> numbers in particular or are we just generally embracing innumeracy?
> And what precisely does this have to do with his old Leica?  There
> were good lenses in the old days made with computer help.  Lots of
> crappy ones too.  In the price range I can afford, the newer ones are
> better.
>
>   The older film technology is simpler and, as is often the case,
> this makes it more robust.  Modern electronic cameras are more
> complicated and have many, many more pieces which can fail.  Again,
> how does this relate to craftsmanship?  There will never be hand
> crafted electronics in the way mechanical objects were made.  Two
> different kinds of devices such as these are difficult to compare.  I
> vividly remember the early days of digital when numbers were
> constantly used to prove that digital could never replace film.  We
> would need at least 25 MP to replace film.  Of course, film was
> essentially taken out by the 6 mp APS-C DSLRs because, numbers aside,
> the DSLRs produced images that were more than good enough for what
> people were using them for.
>
>      Film photography with his M3 (M3, right?) was a slower, more
> careful, and maybe more satisfying process.  Digital is also
> satisfying because post-processing can improve my images, assuming I
> didn't screw them up in the first place.  Different processes with
> different charms.
>
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Jim King  wrote:
>> Larry Colen wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:18:16 -0700
> rpcoess>
>> (snip)
>>
>>> I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for
>>> annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than
>>> other brands, but cost so much less.
>>
>> Hah! I was hoping that someone other than me might be wondering about the 
>> same thing.
>>
>> Actually, I'm a little disappointed that so much of the commentary on this 
>> post has centered on form rather than substance...
>>
>> Regards, Jim
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Steve Desjardins
>



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Steve Desjardins

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

 Well, one problem with his arguments is figuring out what the
hell his arguments are.  Numbers aren't everything? Absolutely.  Any
numbers in particular or are we just generally embracing innumeracy?
And what precisely does this have to do with his old Leica?  There
were good lenses in the old days made with computer help.  Lots of
crappy ones too.  In the price range I can afford, the newer ones are
better.

   The older film technology is simpler and, as is often the case,
this makes it more robust.  Modern electronic cameras are more
complicated and have many, many more pieces which can fail.  Again,
how does this relate to craftsmanship?  There will never be hand
crafted electronics in the way mechanical objects were made.  Two
different kinds of devices such as these are difficult to compare.  I
vividly remember the early days of digital when numbers were
constantly used to prove that digital could never replace film.  We
would need at least 25 MP to replace film.  Of course, film was
essentially taken out by the 6 mp APS-C DSLRs because, numbers aside,
the DSLRs produced images that were more than good enough for what
people were using them for.

  Film photography with his M3 (M3, right?) was a slower, more
careful, and maybe more satisfying process.  Digital is also
satisfying because post-processing can improve my images, assuming I
didn't screw them up in the first place.  Different processes with
different charms.

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Jim King  wrote:
> Larry Colen wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:18:16 -0700
rpcoess>
> (snip)
>
>> I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for
>> annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than
>> other brands, but cost so much less.
>
> Hah! I was hoping that someone other than me might be wondering about the 
> same thing.
>
> Actually, I'm a little disappointed that so much of the commentary on this 
> post has centered on form rather than substance...
>
> Regards, Jim
>
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:25:25 -0700

> LOL ... I have never heard Pentax referred to as the "Japanese Leica".

I read it somewhere, probably Modern Photography way back in the day when 
Herbert Keppler was still active.

> Leica is most reknowned for its lenses and rangefinder cameras and
> Pentax—the name itself was derived from the pentaprism used in SLRs.
> 
> Erwin Puts ... Well, his article would be a heck of a lot more
> readable and sensible if he learned how to use paragraphs to structure
> his thoughts. He rambles.

Does he ever.  Trying to follow his thoughts is a real challenge.  His camera 
and lens reviews are equally turgid...  But there is often some gold buries in 
the dross.

> I'm in the middle of re-reading "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
> Maintenance" right now. I read it first in '76 or so, again about '81,
> and with all the water under the bridge since, reading it now points
> out some very interesting fallacies in the logic presented as
> Phaedrus' hunt for the 'ghost of rationality'. Some fundamental
> premises seem just plain wrong to me now.
> 
> But, achingly clawing my way through this mass of text, I do agree
> with Puts' fundamental premise, although the words he uses are
> strangely construed. In the modern world of equipment über alles, too
> much weight is lent to numbers without a shred of intelligible
> discourse given to the why of their primacy. Everything is opinion,
> belief and a faith-healer's trust that "numbers don't lie."
> 
> Well, the numbers are just numbers: they're evidence, not truth.
> Interpreting the numbers is where art and understanding lies.
> 
> Just like we can confuse ourselves and think we are increasing our
> understanding when we banter on about how photosites work, photon
> counting, etc, the truth is that very little of this has much to do
> with photography and a lot to do with technology and engineering.
> Being able to stand back from the technology, see how the equipment
> behaves and then bending it to our purpose of producing photographs,
> not theorizing about the engineering of better equipment, is often
> lost.
> 
> Equipment cannot make photographs. Only people can. People with eyes,
> sensitivity, and skill to know how to work the equipment. Truly
> ..."equipment often gets in the way of Photography."

Well said, Godders.  I'd like to hear more comments in this vein from other 
regulars here.

Regards, Jim
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

Larry Colen wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:18:16 -0700

(snip)

> I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for 
> annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than 
> other brands, but cost so much less.

Hah! I was hoping that someone other than me might be wondering about the same 
thing.

Actually, I'm a little disappointed that so much of the commentary on this post 
has centered on form rather than substance...

Regards, Jim

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Paul Stenquist


On Apr 13, 2011, at 7:01 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

> 
> On Apr 13, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:
> 
>> Bob W wrote:
>> 
 Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
>>> 
 I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has
 provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at
 least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old,
 unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3.  However given the
 subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and
 dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the
 racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van.
>>> 
>>> I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it
>>> was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52
>>> years old. 
>>> 
>>> I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all
>>> respects expect brickiness.
>> 
>> Where do you stand on the Porsche vs. Dodge Van question?
> 
> The first time I drove a Dodge van on the track, I was turning faster 
> laptimes in my van than I had been in my Corolla. I was also turning faster 
> laptimes than one of the students in his second generation MR2. I did realize 
> that if I rolled the toyota up into a little ball I could tow it home in the 
> van, the function was not commutable.
> 
> The one time I drove my current van on the track, I had to drive so slow so 
> that my current student could keep up, I have no idea as to it's performance 
> abilities.
> 
> I don't have any direct experience with a Dodge Van and a Porsche, but I did 
> have a student once, who by the end of the day was keeping up with my Honda 
> stationwagon in his carrera 4.  Some years back, Grassroots Motorsports did a 
> laptime comparison between a Honda Odyssey and a Jaguar E-type on an 
> autocross course. The Odyssey was substantially faster.
> 
> In any case, depending on the van, the porsche and the racetrack, there's a 
> good chance that I could turn a faster laptime than him, if I were in a Dodge 
> Van and he were in a Porsche. Given drivers of equal skill, and a 1/2 ton van 
> with a 360 and swaybars versus a 914/1.8 and upgraded swaybars, I wouldn't be 
> surprised if the van took on the porsche.
> 
And of course, you could haul a lot more groceries in your Dodge van. Function 
counts.
Paul
> --
> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread mike wilson


On 14/04/2011 01:01, Larry Colen wrote:


On Apr 13, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:



Where do you stand on the Porsche vs. Dodge Van question?


The first time I drove a Dodge van on the track, I was turning faster laptimes 
in my van than I had been in my Corolla. I was also turning faster laptimes 
than one of the students in his second generation MR2. I did realize that if I 
rolled the toyota up into a little ball I could tow it home in the van, the 
function was not commutable.

The one time I drove my current van on the track, I had to drive so slow so 
that my current student could keep up, I have no idea as to it's performance 
abilities.

I don't have any direct experience with a Dodge Van and a Porsche, but I did 
have a student once, who by the end of the day was keeping up with my Honda 
stationwagon in his carrera 4.  Some years back, Grassroots Motorsports did a 
laptime comparison between a Honda Odyssey and a Jaguar E-type on an autocross 
course. The Odyssey was substantially faster.

In any case, depending on the van, the porsche and the racetrack, there's a 
good chance that I could turn a faster laptime than him, if I were in a Dodge 
Van and he were in a Porsche. Given drivers of equal skill, and a 1/2 ton van 
with a 360 and swaybars versus a 914/1.8 and upgraded swaybars, I wouldn't be 
surprised if the van took on the porsche.


How about a Jaguar?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaQmOkBvWh0&feature=related

Forward to about 5.00minutes if you don't want the history lesson.

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

On Apr 13, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:

> Bob W wrote:
> 
>>> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
>> 
>>> I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has
>>> provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at
>>> least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old,
>>> unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3.  However given the
>>> subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and
>>> dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the
>>> racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van.
>> 
>> I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it
>> was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52
>> years old. 
>> 
>> I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all
>> respects expect brickiness.
> 
> Where do you stand on the Porsche vs. Dodge Van question?

The first time I drove a Dodge van on the track, I was turning faster laptimes 
in my van than I had been in my Corolla. I was also turning faster laptimes 
than one of the students in his second generation MR2. I did realize that if I 
rolled the toyota up into a little ball I could tow it home in the van, the 
function was not commutable.

The one time I drove my current van on the track, I had to drive so slow so 
that my current student could keep up, I have no idea as to it's performance 
abilities.

I don't have any direct experience with a Dodge Van and a Porsche, but I did 
have a student once, who by the end of the day was keeping up with my Honda 
stationwagon in his carrera 4.  Some years back, Grassroots Motorsports did a 
laptime comparison between a Honda Odyssey and a Jaguar E-type on an autocross 
course. The Odyssey was substantially faster.

In any case, depending on the van, the porsche and the racetrack, there's a 
good chance that I could turn a faster laptime than him, if I were in a Dodge 
Van and he were in a Porsche. Given drivers of equal skill, and a 1/2 ton van 
with a 360 and swaybars versus a 914/1.8 and upgraded swaybars, I wouldn't be 
surprised if the van took on the porsche.

--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Godfrey DiGiorgi

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Dario Bonazza
 wrote:
> Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>
>> LOL ... I have never heard Pentax referred to as the "Japanese Leica".
>
> That was commonly reported from Japan around 1976, soon after the
> introduction of the MX. Some Japanese folks perceived the MX as the new
> Leica: small, basic, smooth and pleasant to use. In other words, the Leica
> philosophy in a (then) current camera.

I heard the same thing in reference to the Olympus OM-1 about that
time. Rumor had it that Olympus was going to name the camera the M-1
but didn't after Leica protested ...

-- 
Godfrey
  godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Dario Bonazza


Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:


LOL ... I have never heard Pentax referred to as the "Japanese Leica".


That was commonly reported from Japan around 1976, soon after the 
introduction of the MX. Some Japanese folks perceived the MX as the new 
Leica: small, basic, smooth and pleasant to use. In other words, the Leica 
philosophy in a (then) current camera.


Dario


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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Godfrey DiGiorgi

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Jim King  wrote:
> This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will 
> for some of you as well:
>
> http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html
>
> Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica...

LOL ... I have never heard Pentax referred to as the "Japanese Leica".
Leica is most reknowned for its lenses and rangefinder cameras and
Pentax—the name itself was derived from the pentaprism used in SLRs.

Erwin Puts ... Well, his article would be a heck of a lot more
readable and sensible if he learned how to use paragraphs to structure
his thoughts. He rambles.

I'm in the middle of re-reading "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance" right now. I read it first in '76 or so, again about '81,
and with all the water under the bridge since, reading it now points
out some very interesting fallacies in the logic presented as
Phaedrus' hunt for the 'ghost of rationality'. Some fundamental
premises seem just plain wrong to me now.

But, achingly clawing my way through this mass of text, I do agree
with Puts' fundamental premise, although the words he uses are
strangely construed. In the modern world of equipment über alles, too
much weight is lent to numbers without a shred of intelligible
discourse given to the why of their primacy. Everything is opinion,
belief and a faith-healer's trust that "numbers don't lie."

Well, the numbers are just numbers: they're evidence, not truth.
Interpreting the numbers is where art and understanding lies.

Just like we can confuse ourselves and think we are increasing our
understanding when we banter on about how photosites work, photon
counting, etc, the truth is that very little of this has much to do
with photography and a lot to do with technology and engineering.
Being able to stand back from the technology, see how the equipment
behaves and then bending it to our purpose of producing photographs,
not theorizing about the engineering of better equipment, is often
lost.

Equipment cannot make photographs. Only people can. People with eyes,
sensitivity, and skill to know how to work the equipment. Truly
..."equipment often gets in the way of Photography."
-- 
Godfrey
  godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

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RE: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism



> -Original Message-
> From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of
> David Parsons


> >> While it is true that the sensor may have a limited lifespan, how
> long
> >> does he really expect to be using his camera?  You have to move on
> at
> >> some point.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > That's just a justification for built-in obsolescence to satisfy the
> > manufacturers, not the consumers.
> 
> No, a justification for built-in obsolescence would be that the camera
> stopped working on a schedule decided by the manufacturer.  Planning
> for a 20 year usable life-cycle is nowhere near planned obsolescence.
> It's not like Leica is not going to introduce more models in the next
> 19 years just in time to make the current model obsolete.
> 

you've misunderstood my reply, which was not specifically about the Leica,
but about the claim 'you have to move on at some point'. Why do you have to
move on? Making a claim like that is nonsense and plays into the hands of
manufacturers. Companies, such as Leica, made and supported products for
decades. Nobody claimed that you had to move one then. Why do you have to
move on now?

> >
> >>
> >> It's nostalgia speaking here.  It's hip to say that you shoot film,
> >> and that you shot film before it was cool.  Guess what, the rest of
> >> the world has moved on.  If he wants to shoot film, he can do that.
> >
> > He has an M9. He's moaning that the sensor will be f_cked in a
> relatively
> > short time, and will reduce the lifespan of the camera compared to
> his M3.
> > It seems perfectly reasonable to want a camera that costs £5,000.00
> to last
> > a long time. If the sensor fails after, say, 20 years, and the rest
> of the
> > body is designed to last 50, someone in the accounting department
> will ask
> > why they are wasting so much cost in the body, and lower the quality
> so that
> > it too has a life expectancy of only 20 years, and before you know it
> Leicas
> > will be made of cardboard.
> >
> > People are still using Leicas from the 13th century, or thereabouts.
> Long
> > may they continue to do so!
> >
> 
> Yes, Leica's are well built, they are also status items, so stating
> that they should last longer because they cost more is silly.  Part of
> the price is the name and reputation.
> 

it's not silly, it's my opinion. If I pay a shit load of money for a camera
I want it to last a fecking long time.

> I think its also disingenuous to think that the accountants are
> running the company, and to predict their future based on a stereotype
> of corporate behavior.
> 

I've been working in the corporate world for over 30 years - that's far too
long to be disingenuous.

> Besides the fact the the sensor is designed to be replaced.  Does a
> company that is obsoleting their products design an upgrade path?
> 


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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread David Parsons

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Bob W  wrote:
>> While it is true that the sensor may have a limited lifespan, how long
>> does he really expect to be using his camera?  You have to move on at
>> some point.
>
> Why?
>
> That's just a justification for built-in obsolescence to satisfy the
> manufacturers, not the consumers.

No, a justification for built-in obsolescence would be that the camera
stopped working on a schedule decided by the manufacturer.  Planning
for a 20 year usable life-cycle is nowhere near planned obsolescence.
It's not like Leica is not going to introduce more models in the next
19 years just in time to make the current model obsolete.

>
>>
>> It's nostalgia speaking here.  It's hip to say that you shoot film,
>> and that you shot film before it was cool.  Guess what, the rest of
>> the world has moved on.  If he wants to shoot film, he can do that.
>
> He has an M9. He's moaning that the sensor will be f_cked in a relatively
> short time, and will reduce the lifespan of the camera compared to his M3.
> It seems perfectly reasonable to want a camera that costs £5,000.00 to last
> a long time. If the sensor fails after, say, 20 years, and the rest of the
> body is designed to last 50, someone in the accounting department will ask
> why they are wasting so much cost in the body, and lower the quality so that
> it too has a life expectancy of only 20 years, and before you know it Leicas
> will be made of cardboard.
>
> People are still using Leicas from the 13th century, or thereabouts. Long
> may they continue to do so!
>

Yes, Leica's are well built, they are also status items, so stating
that they should last longer because they cost more is silly.  Part of
the price is the name and reputation.

I think its also disingenuous to think that the accountants are
running the company, and to predict their future based on a stereotype
of corporate behavior.

Besides the fact the the sensor is designed to be replaced.  Does a
company that is obsoleting their products design an upgrade path?

> B
>
>
>
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RE: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism



> -Original Message-
> From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of
> Mark Roberts
> >
> >I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in
> all
> >respects expect brickiness.
> 
> Where do you stand on the Porsche vs. Dodge Van question?
> 

behind the bike shed.

B


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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Mark Roberts

Bob W wrote:

>> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
>
>> I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has
>> provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at
>> least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old,
>> unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3.  However given the
>> subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and
>> dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the
>> racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van.
>
>I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it
>was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52
>years old. 
>
>I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all
>respects expect brickiness.

Where do you stand on the Porsche vs. Dodge Van question?
 
-- 
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www.robertstech.com





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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Dario Bonazza


Larry Colen wrote:

My C3 does have one significant advantage of over an  M3. I have a C3 and 
not an M3.


Mark! 



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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism


On Apr 13, 2011, at 2:14 PM, Bob W wrote:

>> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
> 
>> I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has
>> provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at
>> least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old,
>> unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3.  However given the
>> subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and
>> dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the
>> racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van.
> 
> I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it
> was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52
> years old. 
> 
> I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all
> respects expect brickiness.

I certainly expect that you are entirely correct.  I still suspect that either 
of us could take better pictures with a brick than Puts can with an M3.

My C3 does have one significant advantage of over an  M3. I have a C3 and not 
an M3.

--
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RE: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est

> I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has
> provoked an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at
> least to challenge him to a photo competition, my 64 year old,
> unadjusted Argus C3 brick against his Leica M3.  However given the
> subjective aspect of photographic quality, it isn't nearly so cut and
> dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him around the
> racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van.

I've used an Argus brick which is probably now 60+ years old, although it
was nearly 30 years ago that I used it. And I have a Leica M3 which is 52
years old. 

I can categorically assure you that the M3 is better than the Argus in all
respects expect brickiness.

B


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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Doug Franklin


On 2011-04-13 14:25, Bob W wrote:


Erwin Puts hardly ever writes anything worth reading, paragraphs or not.


Har!  I didn't even notice that!  I'd change my name!

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

On Apr 13, 2011, at 1:05 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:

> On 4/13/2011 9:39 AM, David J Brooks wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Mark Roberts  wrote:
 http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\
>>> Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the "paragraph".
>> I'll do that
>> 
>> Dave
> 
> Given the perversity of the universe, all you'll manage to do is teach him 
> how to spell...

Mark!

I have more than a little temptation to comment on how his essay has provoked 
an interesting discussion on snob appeal vs. talent, or at least to challenge 
him to a photo competition, my 64 year old, unadjusted Argus C3 brick against 
his Leica M3.  However given the subjective aspect of photographic quality, it 
isn't nearly so cut and dried as asking whether I'd be able to keep up with him 
around the racetrack in his Porsche while driving my Dodge Van.

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

Writing such as this is more likely the result of a compensated
inferiority complex.

On 4/13/2011 11:32 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

I'm not a "professional," and really not even a craftsman, but I
recognize a superiority complex when I see one.Defense of "the old
ways" in the name of professionalism is a fine way of looking down
one's nose at all who differ from one's own way of doing things.

Dan

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Jim King wrote:

Jim King wrote on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:58:35 -0700

This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for
some of you as well:

http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\

Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica...

Lots of comments in the Leica Users Forum about Puts' post:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/176273-new-blog-entry-erwin-puts.html

Many of them have the same criticism of his writing/composing style as the posts here. I
hope that his thoughts will not get lost in the criticism of his style; his arguments for
the "old ways" are worth considering, and some of his criticism of our digital
era are on target IMO.

Regards, Jim

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

On Apr 13, 2011, at 12:48 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

> MARK!
> 
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> 
>> The stereotypical Leica owner does have a reputation for being a Puts, 
>> though it's usually spelled a little differently.

It's actually fairly common that owners of high quality gear tend to fall into 
two groups.  Those that spend the money because they need the quality, and 
those that buy the gear for bragging rights. There are also a few people that 
may not actually make full use of the performance, but buy the equipment from 
an aesthetic appreciation of the quality. The same is true of cameras, cars, 
tools, and probably sewing machines, dishwashers and vacuum cleaners. Of 
course, very few people actually think that they spend the extra money just for 
the snob appeal, they usually think that they're making use of the performance, 
or at least out of appreciation of, dare I say, the craftsmanship.

I can't help but wonder if Pentax owners have a similar reputation for 
annoyingly bragging about how our cameras perform as well, or better, than 
other brands, but cost so much less.

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

I just loaded film into my ~30 year old LX, damn that camera is a joy to 
hold.


On 4/13/2011 10:12 AM, David Parsons wrote:

While it is true that the sensor may have a limited lifespan, how long
does he really expect to be using his camera?  You have to move on at
some point.

It's nostalgia speaking here.  It's hip to say that you shoot film,
and that you shot film before it was cool.  Guess what, the rest of
the world has moved on.  If he wants to shoot film, he can do that.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 10:58 PM, Jim King  wrote:

This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will for 
some of you as well:

http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\

Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica...

Regards, Jim


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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism


On 4/13/2011 9:39 AM, David J Brooks wrote:

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Mark Roberts  wrote:

http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\

Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the "paragraph".

I'll do that

Dave


Given the perversity of the universe, all you'll manage to do is teach 
him how to spell...





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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Daniel J. Matyola

MARK!

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:

> The stereotypical Leica owner does have a reputation for being a Puts, though 
> it's usually spelled a little differently.
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

On Apr 12, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Jim King wrote:

> This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will 
> for some of you as well:
> 
> http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html

I find that his writing displays neither professionalism, nor craftsmanship. 

Like others, I disagree with his definition of professionalism, and would 
describe it as doing a job that is good enough, without wasting too much time 
or resources on doing it better than it needs to be.

> 
> Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica...

The stereotypical Leica owner does have a reputation for being a Puts, though 
it's usually spelled a little differently.  

> 
> Regards, Jim
> 
> 
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Doug Franklin


On 2011-04-13 11:32, Steven Desjardins wrote:

I appreciate that the old film cameras had a longer lifespan than the
digital ones.  The problem is that for many of us color was a thing
left to the labs, whereas B&W was a medium were we could do some PP.
Now color is there as well.


I started reading it and putting together a point by point rebuttal.  It 
got way too long, way too fast.  So, I'm going to sum up my response:


Bull pucky!  Starting with flawed definitions for professionalism and 
craftsmanship and going on down the line.


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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Matthew Hunt

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Bob W  wrote:

> Why?
>
> That's just a justification for built-in obsolescence to satisfy the
> manufacturers, not the consumers.

While it would be nice for a camera to last forever, I don't see much
to complain about in relation to the days of film.

My K10D is 4 years old. It still works fine. I want a K-5, but only
because the K-5 is better, not because the K10D is any worse than when
I got it.

In the 4 years I've had my K10D, I estimate that I would have spent
about $3,000 in film and processing to take the same number of
exposures on film. So if my K10D dies today, why should I complain
about the cost of a new body?

If periodic replacement/upgrade of digital bodies isn't cheaper than
shooting film, then either you're spending too much on the bodies
(*cough* Leica *cough*) or you're not taking enough pictures (*cough*
collectors *cough*).

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RE: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

> While it is true that the sensor may have a limited lifespan, how long
> does he really expect to be using his camera?  You have to move on at
> some point.

Why? 

That's just a justification for built-in obsolescence to satisfy the
manufacturers, not the consumers. 

> 
> It's nostalgia speaking here.  It's hip to say that you shoot film,
> and that you shot film before it was cool.  Guess what, the rest of
> the world has moved on.  If he wants to shoot film, he can do that.

He has an M9. He's moaning that the sensor will be f_cked in a relatively
short time, and will reduce the lifespan of the camera compared to his M3.
It seems perfectly reasonable to want a camera that costs £5,000.00 to last
a long time. If the sensor fails after, say, 20 years, and the rest of the
body is designed to last 50, someone in the accounting department will ask
why they are wasting so much cost in the body, and lower the quality so that
it too has a life expectancy of only 20 years, and before you know it Leicas
will be made of cardboard.

People are still using Leicas from the 13th century, or thereabouts. Long
may they continue to do so!

B



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RE: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

> > This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect
> it will for some of you as well:
> >
> > http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\
> >
> > Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese
> Leica...
> >
> > Regards, Jim
> 
> Whoa! That article amply demonstrates why paragraphs are a Good Idea.
> I'd like to read it, but I'm put off by that swollen river of run-on
> text.

Erwin Puts hardly ever writes anything worth reading, paragraphs or not. 

B


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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Dario Bonazza


The first couple sentences...

"The last few weeks I took pictures with a fifty-year-old Leica M3 that 
recently has been serviced with minor adjustments. This was the first 
overhaul in half a century and given the small amount of repairs it should 
now be fit for another half century."


...already describe the person. All lab technicians I spoke to about tuning 
old Leicas told me they mostly get horribly mis-adjusted cameras to restore 
as possible. That's not a Leica fault, it's the unavoidable problem for any 
decently-built mechanical camera of that age. A mechanical camera cannon be 
tuned as precisely as a typical Leica owner dreams of when new, go figure a 
fifty-year-old one. However, any polite technician will always assure the 
Leica owner his camera only needed minor adjustments.
That said, it is true that a mechanical camera from the fifties will operate 
much longer than an electronic one. Take it for granted. That also applies 
to say a SV, a Spotmatic or a K1000. I own a couple Asahiflexes 
(mid-fifties) which look like having been manufactured in late 2010 and work 
flawlessly, adjusted more or less like you can expect from a Leica of the 
same vintage.


Dario




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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism


On Apr 13, 2011, at 10:49 AM, John Sessoms wrote:
> 
> That doesn't, however, make the opposite true.
> 
> My file names were *PERFECT*!

I saw a photographer drinking a Pina Colada at Grandfather mountain,
his filenames were perfect.

> 

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Tom C

Mark wrote:

>Doug Brewer and I see a similar effect at the GFM photo contest we
>judge: the people who mess up the (very simple) file-naming convention
>never produce winning photos.

>Anyway, I think the article in question shows that a similar
>phenomenon exists with regards to the written word.

I see that frequently at work. I get to review resumes and perform
technical phone interviews with candidates. I recently had a 16-page
double-spaced resume submitted from a guy with 10 years experience (my
30 years is condensed to 4 pages). The resume was so loaded with
grammatical errors I stopped marking it up. One 4-line bulleted
paragraph was repeated almost verbatim for four different employers.
The resume frequently explained how something worked vs. what the
individual did.

The phone interview went the same. Long rambling answers that did not
answer the questions. When I drilled down to elicit specific responses
they were vague or incorrect.

I instantly think that if this document is the single most important
document essential to your career success and so little attention is
paid to detail, content, and quality, what kind of software and
written documents will you produce for the client?

Tom

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread John Sessoms

From: Mark Roberts

Paul Stenquist wrote:

>OMG! All one paragraph. It's unreadable.
>The part I managed to get through before my eyes and brain hurt seemed silly 
and obvious.

There's a story Galen Rowell related in one of his books about the
post-workshop slide presentations he always used to have.

Each participant got to pick a number of their own shots from the
workshop to be shown. Now a slide can go into a projector 8 different
ways and 7 of them are wrong. And it's not always apparent to others
which orientation is correct. So Galen instructed everyone to mark
their slides with a dot in the upper right corner of the mount, viewed
from the side from which the slide looked correct. This tremendously
speeds up getting a couple of hundred slides into a carousel.

In every workshop, however, some people just couldn't get it right.
They either forgot the dot or put it in the wrong location. Rowell
observed that these people also invariably produced the weakest
photographs. He concluded that their lack of awareness/care/attention
in marking the slide was not just confined to slide marking but
affected their creative output as well.

Doug Brewer and I see a similar effect at the GFM photo contest we
judge: the people who mess up the (very simple) file-naming convention
never produce winning photos.

That doesn't, however, make the opposite true.

My file names were *PERFECT*!

Anyway, I think the article in question shows that a similar
phenomenon exists with regards to the written word.

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread John Sessoms


From: Mark Roberts


http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\

Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the "paragraph".




I also disagreed with his definition of "professionalism".

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Mark Roberts

Paul Stenquist wrote:

>OMG! All one paragraph. It's unreadable.
>The part I managed to get through before my eyes and brain hurt seemed silly 
>and obvious.

There's a story Galen Rowell related in one of his books about the
post-workshop slide presentations he always used to have. 

Each participant got to pick a number of their own shots from the
workshop to be shown. Now a slide can go into a projector 8 different
ways and 7 of them are wrong. And it's not always apparent to others
which orientation is correct. So Galen instructed everyone to mark
their slides with a dot in the upper right corner of the mount, viewed
from the side from which the slide looked correct. This tremendously
speeds up getting a couple of hundred slides into a carousel.

In every workshop, however, some people just couldn't get it right.
They either forgot the dot or put it in the wrong location. Rowell
observed that these people also invariably produced the weakest
photographs. He concluded that their lack of awareness/care/attention
in marking the slide was not just confined to slide marking but
affected their creative output as well.

Doug Brewer and I see a similar effect at the GFM photo contest we
judge: the people who mess up the (very simple) file-naming convention
never produce winning photos.

Anyway, I think the article in question shows that a similar
phenomenon exists with regards to the written word.

-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Paul Stenquist

OMG! All one paragraph. It's unreadable.
The part I managed to get through before my eyes and brain hurt seemed silly 
and obvious.
Paul


On Apr 13, 2011, at 9:37 AM, Steven Desjardins wrote:

> To be fair, his arguments are not without merit.  I'm always
> suspicious, however, when anyone quotes Pirsig.  Ultimately, Pirsig's
> view of quality is an "I know it when I see it" argument.  It's not
> wrong, just difficult to apply and even harder to adjudicate when
> there is a difference of opinion.
> 
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 8:06 AM,   wrote:
>> I had the same thought. Composition grade would drop. Ironic given the
>> topic.
>> 
>> On Apr 13, 2011 7:46am, Mark Roberts  wrote:
 http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the "paragraph".
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
>>> 
>>> www.robertstech.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>> 
>>> PDML@pdml.net
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>>> follow the directions.
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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> 
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

Daniel J. Matyola wrote on Wed, 13 Apr 2011 08:33:00 -0700

>  I'm not a "professional," and really not even a craftsman, but I
> recognize a superiority complex when I see one.Defense of "the old
> ways" in the name of professionalism is a fine way of looking down
> one's nose at all who differ from one's own way of doing things.

Many (but by no means all) Leica enthusiast are like that...

After all, they are champions of a camera design which is virtually unchanged 
form the 1950s!

Regards, Jim


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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread Daniel J. Matyola

 I'm not a "professional," and really not even a craftsman, but I
recognize a superiority complex when I see one.Defense of "the old
ways" in the name of professionalism is a fine way of looking down
one's nose at all who differ from one's own way of doing things.

Dan

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Jim King  wrote:
> Jim King wrote on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:58:35 -0700
>
>> This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will 
>> for
>> some of you as well:
>>
>>
>> http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\
>>
>>
>> Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica...
>
> Lots of comments in the Leica Users Forum about Puts' post: 
> http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/176273-new-blog-entry-erwin-puts.html
>
> Many of them have the same criticism of his writing/composing style as the 
> posts here.  I hope that his thoughts will not get lost in the criticism of 
> his style; his arguments for the "old ways" are worth considering, and some 
> of his criticism of our digital era are on target IMO.
>
> Regards, Jim
>
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

I appreciate that the old film cameras had a longer lifespan than the
digital ones.  The problem is that for many of us color was a thing
left to the labs, whereas B&W was a medium were we could do some PP.
Now color is there as well.

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Jim King  wrote:
> Jim King wrote on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:58:35 -0700
>
>> This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will 
>> for
>> some of you as well:
>>
>>
>> http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\
>>
>>
>> Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica...
>
> Lots of comments in the Leica Users Forum about Puts' post: 
> http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/176273-new-blog-entry-erwin-puts.html
>
> Many of them have the same criticism of his writing/composing style as the 
> posts here.  I hope that his thoughts will not get lost in the criticism of 
> his style; his arguments for the "old ways" are worth considering, and some 
> of his criticism of our digital era are on target IMO.
>
> Regards, Jim
>
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

Jim King wrote on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:58:35 -0700

> This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will 
> for 
> some of you as well:
> 
> 
> http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\
> 
> 
> Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica...

Lots of comments in the Leica Users Forum about Puts' post: 
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/176273-new-blog-entry-erwin-puts.html

Many of them have the same criticism of his writing/composing style as the 
posts here.  I hope that his thoughts will not get lost in the criticism of his 
style; his arguments for the "old ways" are worth considering, and some of his 
criticism of our digital era are on target IMO.

Regards, Jim

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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread David Parsons

While it is true that the sensor may have a limited lifespan, how long
does he really expect to be using his camera?  You have to move on at
some point.

It's nostalgia speaking here.  It's hip to say that you shoot film,
and that you shot film before it was cool.  Guess what, the rest of
the world has moved on.  If he wants to shoot film, he can do that.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 10:58 PM, Jim King  wrote:
> This blog post by Erwin Puts rang a few bells for me, and I suspect it will 
> for some of you as well:
>
> http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\
>
> Puts is a Leica guy but they used to say that Pentax is the Japanese Leica...
>
> Regards, Jim
>
>
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Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism

2011-04-13 Thread David J Brooks

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Mark Roberts  wrote:
>>http://www.imx.nl/photo/page152/page152.html\
>
> Someone needs to introduce that guy to the concept of the "paragraph".

I'll do that

Dave
>
>
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Re: Re: Some thought on Craftsmanship vs. Professionalism