RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob W]

[...]
> The worst example of refusal to even try was the English 
> family I encountered who had been in Paris for a week, only 
> ever shouted at the French in English, and complained that 
> they hadn't eaten any decent food since they had been there: 

One of my non-francophone friends complains that he can never find anywhere
in France that serves decent food. It's probably because he doesn't know how
to ask for it or read the menu properly.

> hardly surprising, what they did eat probably contained 
> significant amounts of sputum too after they had abused the 
> staff..they were also seated in what I discovered later was 
> in fact one of the worst restaurants on the Champs-Elysée.
> 

I suspect that's a crowded field. I've never eaten on the Champs Elysees -
in fact, I think I've only ever had coffee there once, it's such a rip-off,
and I haven't even been there for about 25 years. My father took us all to
Paris for a weekend about 20 years ago. My girlfriend and I, as 'old Paris
hands', went off on our own itinerary for the first day, leaving the rest of
the (not-very-francophone) family to explore 'les incontournables de Paris'.
When we met up later we discovered they'd paid about 450FF (about £45-) on
the Champs Elysees for 2 coffees, and later been served with some fairly
disgusting food because they didn't know what they were asking for - eg
ordering rognons de veau thinking it would be a veal cutlet. I've felt
guilty ever since that we didn't look after them a bit better.

My guess is that people who've taken against the French may have done so
because they've fallen into some spectacular tourist trap and extrapolated
from that, as if horrible tourist traps don't exist in every popular
destination.

> Faut être sympa, je crois!
> 



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RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[John Coyle]

I had to go to Paris every month for about 18 months in the late '70's, and
my schoolboy French improved rapidly under the kindly guidance of my French
colleagues: outside the office too, people I encountered, mainly waiters and
waitresses (I refuse to use 'waitpersons' on the grounds it is an
abomination) were always understanding of my usually halting attempts to
make myself understood.
The worst example of refusal to even try was the English family I
encountered who had been in Paris for a week, only ever shouted at the
French in English, and complained that they hadn't eaten any decent food
since they had been there: hardly surprising, what they did eat probably
contained significant amounts of sputum too after they had abused the
staff..they were also seated in what I discovered later was in fact one of
the worst restaurants on the Champs-Elysée.

Faut être sympa, je crois!


John in Brisbane




-Original Message-
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Bob
W
Sent: Monday, 8 March 2010 6:28 PM
To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
Subject: RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February
2010

> >
> > I always thought the French treated you better if you at 
> least made an 
> > attempt at speaking French, live and learn.
> >
> 
> No, they hate you even more for trying to mock them.
> They are a very odd group of people.
> 

In their defence, I don't think they are any odder than the rest of us. I've
always found them perfectly friendly and very patient with my attempts to
speak French. I have seen them being impatient and frustrated with people
who don't speak French, but probably rather less so than an Anglo-Saxon
confronted by a Frenchman who has the temerity not to speak English. 

Consider the people of Hartlepool: 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_hanger>

Salut les mecs!




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RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob W]

> >
> > I always thought the French treated you better if you at 
> least made an 
> > attempt at speaking French, live and learn.
> >
> 
> No, they hate you even more for trying to mock them.
> They are a very odd group of people.
> 

In their defence, I don't think they are any odder than the rest of us. I've
always found them perfectly friendly and very patient with my attempts to
speak French. I have seen them being impatient and frustrated with people
who don't speak French, but probably rather less so than an Anglo-Saxon
confronted by a Frenchman who has the temerity not to speak English. 

Consider the people of Hartlepool: 


Salut les mecs!




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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "P. J. Alling"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010






I always thought the French treated you better if you at least made an 
attempt at speaking French, live and learn.




No, they hate you even more for trying to mock them.
They are a very odd group of people.

William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/27/2010 3:07 PM, Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:

Rob Studdert  wrote:

   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUan2DXBsk

Sneaky photographers...
 

Actually, that guy's been rather lucky. I've been stopped by the French
police in Dunkirk, last xmas, taking one of my usual nighttime photos of
the steel mill over there.

Their line of argument? There are half a dozen Seveso class plants, i.e.
they're working with toxic substances, so I can't photograph them. I was
about to ask them what would make it any more dangerous to take photos
in comparison to walking a dog, speeding along on a quad or fishing
which is what dozens of people were doing there at the same time.

I bit my tongue instead because one doesn't argue with the French
police. They can take you to the station and keep you there for days on
end without having to inform anyone, not even a judge or a prosecutor. I
simply packed everything back into the car while they spent half an hour
on their phones and radios with my ID card, inside their vehicle.

Oh, and they were extremely suspicious about me speaking French although
my car had German number plates. I told them that foreign languages can
be learned with a little effort. They didn't seem to like this concept.
Note to self: French officials will in the future have to deal with me
in German. That sure will be fun.
   


I always thought the French treated you better if you at least made an 
attempt at speaking French, live and learn.



Now, for our coming Easter holidays I'll either obtain an official photo
permit from the Dunkirk port authority that I can wave in their faces or
that'll be it as far as my 30 years of travelling to France are
concerned. Pity, really.

Ralf

   



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob Sullivan]

So this is the 'lay of the land' in most places.
Local police/law enforcement officers get a lot of leave to do things their way.
You want to be an a**hole, they'll be a**holes right back to you.
So tell me how this attitude benefits you personally?
It's juvenile behavior or galloping paranoia or both.
Take a chill pill...
Regards,  Bob S.

On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 8:25 PM, P. J. Alling  wrote:
> On 2/27/2010 9:18 PM, David Savage wrote:
>>
>> On 28 February 2010 06:14, William Robb  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cotty"
>>> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,
>>> February
>>> 2010
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The guy with the camera suddenly became the guy with the attitude, and
>>>> that's why he was tossed in a cell.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Could you quote me the statute that says having an attitude is against
>>> the
>>> law?
>>> I'd like to read it.
>>>
>>
>> I'm calling bullshit on that line of thinking. Treat people like shit,
>> and they will respond in the same manner.
>>
>> A stupid way to behave with people with enough power to ruin your day.
>>
>> DS
>>
>>
>
> I was trying to stay out of the rest of this, but Bill has a point.  There's
> no law against being a a-hole, at least not in the US or Canada, however
> it's fairly easy for the police to provoke you into being one.  They can
> then arrest you and generally make your life miserable.  It is an abuse of
> power.  The will generally not have to pay for, unless they make the mistake
> picking someone who's extraordinarily rich or well connected.
>
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>
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P. J. Alling]

This kind of thing /might/ even be justified if they actually managed to 
catch an actual terrorist once every great while.


On 2/27/2010 1:29 PM, Cotty wrote:

While we're on the subject, here's another one:



Video as well, half-way down on the left. This is very near me.

--


Cheers,
   Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)  | People, Places, Pastiche
--  http://www.cottysnaps.com
_



   



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/27/2010 11:29 AM, William Robb wrote:


- Original Message - From: "P. J. Alling"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, 
February 2010




Bill, I love you man, but you know, you can be a total dick, maybe 
it's coloring your perception.  He was being a total dick, but that 
didn't make the cop right.


Hey Peter, I love you too (that should be worthy of a Mark).
But notwithstanding, what would your reaction have been in the same 
situation?

Would you have tried to clarify whether you were under arrest?
Would you have asked what justification was in place for the harassment?
Would you have folded up like a used piece of toilet paper?

I saw the video, at no time did I think the guy was disrespectful of 
the cop, he just demanded that the cop justify her actions.
When did asking someone in authority justify whether what they are 
doing is lawful become being a dick?
My own opinion is that if it is, we are already living in 
dictatorships, whether or not we get to play a game and elect a new 
dictator every 4 years or so.


William Robb

My reaction would not have been cool.  About a week ago I was pulled 
over by an /Armed/ police officer.  Now I had broken no law, and two 
other drivers had clearly broken the law right in front of him, at 
exactly the same time.  When I pointed this out he admitted it he had 
seen them but decided it was more important to give me a warning for 
doing something that was perfectly legal, rather than issue a money 
making traffic ticket to someone richly deserving of one.  I pretty much 
lost it.  I reamed him out in a loud voice, quite vehemently.  I have no 
ideal what  I would have done in the position of the photographer, but 
it probably wouldn't have been pretty.


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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/27/2010 9:18 PM, David Savage wrote:

On 28 February 2010 06:14, William Robb  wrote:
   

- Original Message - From: "Cotty"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February
2010


 


The guy with the camera suddenly became the guy with the attitude, and
that's why he was tossed in a cell.

   

Could you quote me the statute that says having an attitude is against the
law?
I'd like to read it.
 

I'm calling bullshit on that line of thinking. Treat people like shit,
and they will respond in the same manner.

A stupid way to behave with people with enough power to ruin your day.

DS

   
I was trying to stay out of the rest of this, but Bill has a point.  
There's no law against being a a-hole, at least not in the US or Canada, 
however it's fairly easy for the police to provoke you into being one.  
They can then arrest you and generally make your life miserable.  It is 
an abuse of power.  The will generally not have to pay for, unless they 
make the mistake picking someone who's extraordinarily rich or well 
connected.


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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/28/2010 4:47 PM, Bob W wrote:

On 2/27/2010 2:11 PM, Bob W wrote:
 

Bill,
Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA.
I don't have any trouble taking pictures here.
How about you in Canada?

 

Canada is the Great Nylon

   

New York&   London are the Great Nylon

Canada is the Great Beaver Pelt


 

Probably explains why there are so few Brazilians in the Yukon.

   

Now this has taken an interesting turn, Bob, you have the
dirtiest mind.

 

Wha...? Did I write something dirty? I thought it was an observation about
wildlife and nationhood.
   


Something about beaver, and Brazilians, but maybe I have a dirty mind.







   



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bran Everseeking]

On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 09:22:03 -0600
Bob Sullivan  wrote:

> Careful Bill or you might find some surprises on the unquestioning
> obedience/civil disobedience issues.  Some of us are children of the
> '60's and were in Chicago for the '68 Democratic Convention fuss.

I remember the "Chicago 7" and the Yippies though I had not quite
attained sentience at that point.
-- 
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essential to your own... Jealousy is a disease, love is a healthy
condition.- Robert Heinlein

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P N Stenquist]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote:


Careful Bill or you might find some surprises on the unquestioning
obedience/civil disobedience issues.  Some of us are children of the
'60's and were in Chicago for the '68 Democratic Convention fuss.
Regards,  Bob S.

I was at the "Battle of Balboa." We never made it over the bridge, but  
we did get some elected officials to pay attention -- no to mention  
the millions who saw it on TV.


Paul

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob Sullivan]

Careful Bill or you might find some surprises on the unquestioning
obedience/civil disobedience issues.  Some of us are children of the
'60's and were in Chicago for the '68 Democratic Convention fuss.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 6:00 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February
> 2010
>
>
>> I am loyal to the country that has guaranteed my freedom.
>>
>
> There is a difference between unwavering loyalty and unquestioning
> obeidience.
>
> William Robb
>
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 
2010




I am loyal to the country that has guaranteed my freedom.



There is a difference between unwavering loyalty and unquestioning 
obeidience.


William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[paul stenquist]

On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Subash wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 6:55 PM, William Robb  wrote:
> 
>> - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
>> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February
>> 2010
> 
>>>>> Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping
>>>>> today.
>>>> 
>>>> Paul, you may not like hearing this, but a lot of times, you already
>>>> are...
>>>> 
>>> That's just nonsense. I enjoy as much freedom of choice and movement as
>>> anyone on the planet.
>> 
>> The master of misinterpretation strikes again.
> 
> Paul, over a range of issues discussed here over the last many years,
> i've never seen anyone more ready/willing to embrace uncritically the
> official spin on things. that, to me, is as much goose-stepping, as
> anything could possibly be. you may have your reasons. not everyone
> has to look at things that way...
> 
Of course. No one has to see things the same way I do. But to suggest that I'm 
influenced by some kind of official spin is just silly. My opinions are as much 
my own as are yours.  I do resent some of the blatant anti-American sentiment 
that is so prevalent today, and I have at times tried to provide some balance. 
Perhaps you see that as "official spin." 

 I have no desire to get into deep political discussions here This isn't the 
place for it. But I've been around a long time, and my experience has run the 
gamut. I was a member of SDS and a number of other radical progressive groups 
in the sixties. But I was also able to see where it was all going. Today, I'm 
defiantly independent. I don't buy anyone's definitions, politics or spin -- 
least of all that of the contemporary progressives, who approach every issue 
with religious zeal. I think the lemming-like way that the current left defines 
 every issue sometimes moves me to respond in venues where i should remain 
silent. I'm no fan of big government, but I am loyal to the country that has 
guaranteed my freedom.

I'll have no further comment about this. As I said, this is not the place for 
this type of discussion. 
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob Sullivan]

Joe,
I don't drive new cars, but they aren't rusty either.
Rusty is a cancer that you can never cure.
Been there, done that.
Lucky you have a good engine.
My Ford Freestar is a piece of junk...
Regards,  Bob S.

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Joseph McAllister  wrote:
> On Feb 28, 2010, at 05:37 , William Robb wrote:
>
>> - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan"
>> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February
>> 2010
>>
>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:56 PM, William Robb  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a friend of mine has been
>>>> accosted by
>>>> the police twice in the past year for photographing while in a
>>>> wheelchair.
>>>
>>> Well no, I believe you said in his VAN.
>>> Van with handicapped plates, I'd wonder.
>>> Old beater van, rusting in spots, I'd be all over it!
>>
>> Relatively new van, no rust, handicapped plates, little guy with gray hair
>> (he's 65).
>> But this leads to an intersting question:
>> Why would you be all over an old vehicle with some rust?
>> Are people who can't afford new cars somehow automatically second class
>> citizens or criminals who deserve to be treated with less respect than
>> someone who has the wherewithall and interest in buying a new car every few
>> years?
>>
>> William Robb
>
> Wait just minute, boys. I drive an old van (mini variety) with a rusty roof
> and peeling paint thanks to a bad paint formula decision made some 25 years
> ago by some Chrysler chemist. But the engineers also made a decision to put
> a Mitsubishi made 3.3 liter V-6 in it that is rumored to be able to run
> forever with proper care. I'm not one to flaunt my feigned largess with new
> cars (in fact I can't afford a new anything other than food and Pentax
> equipment) but it does put me in a much more dim light amongst my peers.
> Bothers me not. My hunk of steel and plastic parts will not need to be
> replaced for many years to come (fingers crossed) allowing some portion of
> steel and oil derived plastic to remain unused in building said replacement.
>
> I get no respect.
>
> But I've bought enough carbon credits by now with this boat to get a new
> Pentax body every year for the past three, and perhaps the next three! Hoya
> loves me. Soon many beautiful young women will be lining up to be
> photographed by my elite equipment, I'm told.
>
> So HAH!
>
> Joseph McAllister
> pentax...@mac.com
>
> http://gallery.me.com/jomac
> http://web.me.com/jomac/show.me/Blog/Blog.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Subash]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 6:55 PM, William Robb  wrote:

> - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February
> 2010

>>>> Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping
>>>> today.
>>>
>>> Paul, you may not like hearing this, but a lot of times, you already
>>> are...
>>>
>> That's just nonsense. I enjoy as much freedom of choice and movement as
>> anyone on the planet.
>
> The master of misinterpretation strikes again.

Paul, over a range of issues discussed here over the last many years,
i've never seen anyone more ready/willing to embrace uncritically the
official spin on things. that, to me, is as much goose-stepping, as
anything could possibly be. you may have your reasons. not everyone
has to look at things that way...

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Joseph McAllister]

On Feb 28, 2010, at 05:37 , William Robb wrote:


- Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,  
February 2010



On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:56 PM, William Robb   
wrote:
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a friend of mine has been  
accosted by
the police twice in the past year for photographing while in a  
wheelchair.


Well no, I believe you said in his VAN.
Van with handicapped plates, I'd wonder.
Old beater van, rusting in spots, I'd be all over it!


Relatively new van, no rust, handicapped plates, little guy with  
gray hair (he's 65).

But this leads to an intersting question:
Why would you be all over an old vehicle with some rust?
Are people who can't afford new cars somehow automatically second  
class citizens or criminals who deserve to be treated with less  
respect than someone who has the wherewithall and interest in buying  
a new car every few years?


William Robb


Wait just minute, boys. I drive an old van (mini variety) with a rusty  
roof and peeling paint thanks to a bad paint formula decision made  
some 25 years ago by some Chrysler chemist. But the engineers also  
made a decision to put a Mitsubishi made 3.3 liter V-6 in it that is  
rumored to be able to run forever with proper care. I'm not one to  
flaunt my feigned largess with new cars (in fact I can't afford a new  
anything other than food and Pentax equipment) but it does put me in a  
much more dim light amongst my peers. Bothers me not. My hunk of steel  
and plastic parts will not need to be replaced for many years to come  
(fingers crossed) allowing some portion of steel and oil derived  
plastic to remain unused in building said replacement.


I get no respect.

But I've bought enough carbon credits by now with this boat to get a  
new Pentax body every year for the past three, and perhaps the next  
three! Hoya loves me. Soon many beautiful young women will be lining  
up to be photographed by my elite equipment, I'm told.


So HAH!

Joseph McAllister
pentax...@mac.com

http://gallery.me.com/jomac
http://web.me.com/jomac/show.me/Blog/Blog.html







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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[paul stenquist]

On Feb 28, 2010, at 7:46 PM, William Robb wrote:

> 
> - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010
> 
> 
> 
>>> 
>> Don't you ever tire of this? Bed time for Billy.
>> 
> 
> Nope.
> I think you are a time zone ahead of me, perhaps Paulie should get his little 
> mammy to put him in his

Wow. what wit. You were actually able to mimic my post, apparently without 
help. Good boy!

How many times are you going to repeat your post about that photographer in the 
UK? 500? But you probably don't know you're repeating yourself. Sad, but not 
unexpected.

You are now in the trash bin. I'm really tired of your inane nonsense, and the 
solution is simple.

Paul

> jammies and tuck him in after a nice glass of milk and some cookies.
> 
> William Robb 
> 
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 
2010







Don't you ever tire of this? Bed time for Billy.



Nope.
I think you are a time zone ahead of me, perhaps Paulie should get his 
little mammy to put him in his jammies and tuck him in after a nice glass of 
milk and some cookies.


William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[paul stenquist]

On Feb 28, 2010, at 6:55 PM, William Robb wrote:

> 
> - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 2010
> 
> 
> 
>>>> Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping today.
>>> 
>>> Paul, you may not like hearing this, but a lot of times, you already are...
>>> 
>> That's just nonsense. I enjoy as much freedom of choice and movement as 
>> anyone on the planet.
> 
> The master of misinterpretation strikes again.
> 
Don't you ever tire of this? Bed time for Billy.

> William Robb 
> 
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 
2010




Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping 
today.


Paul, you may not like hearing this, but a lot of times, you already 
are...


That's just nonsense. I enjoy as much freedom of choice and movement as 
anyone on the planet.


The master of misinterpretation strikes again.

William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "P. J. Alling"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010






Every government meddles in every other countries governmemt some are just 
more direct and have more power.




And look how it comes back to bite you.

William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "P. J. Alling"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010




Just after 9/11 I was out at 2:AM shooting some fisheye night shots.  I'm 
standing on a deserted street corner across the street from the local Post 
Office, camera on tripod dog sitting patiently nearby, (damn it's been a 
long time since I've had a /patient/ dog), when a police cruiser rolls by. 
I continue setting up for the shot and I see him turn around at the end 
the main drag, as it were, and come rolling back.  He stops, rolls down 
his window, and asks; "Taking some pictures?"  My response; "Yes, I am." 
His response; "Have fun!" and rolls off.  Now any fool could see I was 
taking a picture.  The point is, that, that was the extent of my hassle 
with the police.  I didn't know the officer, he didn't know me, but 
nothing I was doing was suspicious except for the time of night.


That's pretty much how things should be handled.

William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Sullivan"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010




Yup Bill, my prejudice.  If your driving an old rust bucket/beater,
you're somebody I'd want to keep an eye on.  :-)


Interesting perspective.
Considering what an incredibly bad investement a car is, the smart person 
buys a used one that has lost it's shiney new value and drives it until it 
falls apart, and then repeats the process.


William Robb



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RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob W]

> 
> On 2/27/2010 2:11 PM, Bob W wrote:
>  Bill,
>  Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA.
>  I don't have any trouble taking pictures here.
>  How about you in Canada?
>   
> >>> Canada is the Great Nylon
> >>>
> >> New York&  London are the Great Nylon
> >>
> >> Canada is the Great Beaver Pelt
> >>
> >>  
> > Probably explains why there are so few Brazilians in the Yukon.
> >
> 
> Now this has taken an interesting turn, Bob, you have the 
> dirtiest mind.
> 

Wha...? Did I write something dirty? I thought it was an observation about
wildlife and nationhood.





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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/27/2010 2:11 PM, Bob W wrote:

Bill,
Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA.
I don't have any trouble taking pictures here.
How about you in Canada?
 

Canada is the Great Nylon
   

New York&  London are the Great Nylon

Canada is the Great Beaver Pelt

 

Probably explains why there are so few Brazilians in the Yukon.
   


Now this has taken an interesting turn, Bob, you have the dirtiest mind.



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/27/2010 11:42 AM, William Robb wrote:


- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' 
arrest,February 2010




I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega 
Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way 
to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and 
Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day.


Meddling with other peoples governments is usually not a very good 
thing to do.
The USA seems to think it have a God given right to do it, and then 
justify it under the theory that if it's good for the USA it's good 
for everyone.
It usually works out to be bad for everyone, just less bad for the USA 
in that less Americans get killed by a factor of a thousand or so.


William Robb

Every government meddles in every other countries governmemt some are 
just more direct and have more power.


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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/27/2010 1:40 PM, Cotty wrote:

On 28/2/10, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed:

   

Fremantle, Australia.

Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few
photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any
particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get
together).

The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of
pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the
main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more
concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact.

You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from
constantly snapping if left&  right. I was spoilt for choice&  didn't
know where to look.

Gawd I love hot summer evenings.


 

I would consider Australia. Someone else was telling me they would go
back in an instant. Oh yeah my neighbour.

Apparently I started the holocaust or something, do you think they would
still let me in?
   


I'm not sure Canada would let you in, and I think they'll let anybody in.



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   Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)  | People, Places, Pastiche
--  http://www.cottysnaps.com
_



   



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/27/2010 1:11 PM, David Savage wrote:

On 28 February 2010 02:02, David Savage  wrote:
   

On 27 February 2010 19:17, Cotty  wrote:
 

On 26/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:

   

I think you're 100% wrong on this, Cotty. I refer you to Willcock vs Muckle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Henry_Willcock

The PCSO in that film was an idiot, which is to be expected of PCSOs. The
policewoman was bang out of order, abusing her authority. The photographer
appears to know his rights rather more than most of us do, so presumably was
deliberately pushing for this to happen, just as Willcock did in 1951, but
somebody needs to put a stop to this type of abuse of authority.
 

Hmm - there is nothing in the above para that I disagree with except the
abuse of authority bit. If the police have the power to stop and search
under a lawful act, how is that an abuse of authority?

In any society you're going to get unscripted and spontaneous incidents
on the ground and these probably happen in the dozens in the UK every
day. Name me a few countries in the world where this sort of incident
would have had a better outcome and I will consider moving there.
   

Fremantle, Australia.

Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few
photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any
particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get
together).

The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of
pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the
main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more
concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact.
 


...we were taking photos
   


Glad you clarified that.


   

You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from
constantly snapping if left&  right. I was spoilt for choice&  didn't
know where to look.

Gawd I love hot summer evenings.



DS

 
   



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/27/2010 9:15 PM, David Savage wrote:

On 28 February 2010 06:13, William Robb  wrote:
   

- Original Message - From: "Cotty"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February
2010



 

As a point of principle I suppose I agree that stop and search is open
to abuse and judging by the original youtube video, it is plain to see.
However, I still maintain the bloke in question was being adversarial
and that is only going to end up with one result.
   

That being a false arrest and a monetary settlement I hope.
 

Exactly. If he hadn't behaved like a "dick" the situation would most
likely worked out differently.

I've been questioned by enough police/security/random citizens when
out photographing stuff fo know, that if you get your back up and have
an attitude the other party will get behave in kind. Keeping the
"confrontation" light and chatty will see the situation resolve in my
favour.

DS
   


Just after 9/11 I was out at 2:AM shooting some fisheye night shots.  
I'm standing on a deserted street corner across the street from the 
local Post Office, camera on tripod dog sitting patiently nearby, (damn 
it's been a long time since I've had a /patient/ dog), when a police 
cruiser rolls by.  I continue setting up for the shot and I see him turn 
around at the end the main drag, as it were, and come rolling back.  He 
stops, rolls down his window, and asks; "Taking some pictures?"  My 
response; "Yes, I am."  His response; "Have fun!" and rolls off.  Now 
any fool could see I was taking a picture.  The point is, that, that was 
the extent of my hassle with the police.  I didn't know the officer, he 
didn't know me, but nothing I was doing was suspicious except for the 
time of night.



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[steve harley]

On 2010-02-27 15:32 , Christine Aguila wrote:

3c)  Folks who sympathize with the photograrapher are assuming the
photographer is telling the truth about him  *just out taking pictures,
minding his own business* and that he wasn't using his camera in an
"anti-social" manner (whatever that means--see point 3).  It occurred to
me that one could easily stage this kind of event--a kind of set-up
entrapment--contrive events to provoke behavior of others.


please don't tell me what i assumed; my take on it comes from the taped 
interaction, and the narration didn't make much difference to me; even 
if he intentionally provoked the situation, the cops didn't handle it 
with the aplomb that should be expected of them


and yes, it bugged me that he didn't show his face, but the guy is 
protecting his privacy, which is the right he was defending in the first 
place; that's a red herring



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob Sullivan]

Yup Bill, my prejudice.  If your driving an old rust bucket/beater,
you're somebody I'd want to keep an eye on.  :-)
A terrorist would probably rent a new van, but other undesirables really don't.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 7:37 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan"
> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February
> 2010
>
>
>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:56 PM, William Robb  wrote:
>>>
>>> As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a friend of mine has been accosted
>>> by
>>> the police twice in the past year for photographing while in a
>>> wheelchair.
>>
>> Well no, I believe you said in his VAN.
>> Van with handicapped plates, I'd wonder.
>> Old beater van, rusting in spots, I'd be all over it!
>
> Relatively new van, no rust, handicapped plates, little guy with gray hair
> (he's 65).
> But this leads to an intersting question:
> Why would you be all over an old vehicle with some rust?
> Are people who can't afford new cars somehow automatically second class
> citizens or criminals who deserve to be treated with less respect than
> someone who has the wherewithall and interest in buying a new car every few
> years?
>
> William Robb
>
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Sullivan"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010




On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:56 PM, William Robb  wrote:
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a friend of mine has been accosted 
by
the police twice in the past year for photographing while in a 
wheelchair.


Well no, I believe you said in his VAN.
Van with handicapped plates, I'd wonder.
Old beater van, rusting in spots, I'd be all over it!


Relatively new van, no rust, handicapped plates, little guy with gray hair 
(he's 65).

But this leads to an intersting question:
Why would you be all over an old vehicle with some rust?
Are people who can't afford new cars somehow automatically second class 
citizens or criminals who deserve to be treated with less respect than 
someone who has the wherewithall and interest in buying a new car every few 
years?


William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Anthony Farr]

On 28 February 2010 04:32, mike wilson  wrote:
>
> I'd like to have seen him try it in 99% of other countries.  His head would
> have been lumpier than school custard.
>

Which is one reason why living in the free world is suppossed to be
better than living in "99% of other countries".  The problem is that
the 'betterness' is vanishing before our eyes.

regards, Anthony

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Anthony Farr]

On 28 February 2010 03:35, Bob W  wrote:
>  Now, I'm a middle
> class, middle-aged, mild-mannered white guy. How do you think they react to
> young Muslim lads who want to take a few pictures?
>
> Bob
>

"They'd" respond like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McB9tsabPn0

regards, Anthony

   "Of what use is lens and light
to those who lack in mind and sight"
   (Anon)

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[paul stenquist]

On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Subash wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 12:31 PM, P N Stenquist  
> wrote:
>> 
>> On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:28 PM, steve harley wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2010-02-27 06:13 , paul stenquist wrote:
 
 I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran
 and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the
 switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S.
 support back in the day.
>>> 
>>> so the alternative may also have been better
>> 
>> Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping today.
> 
> Paul, you may not like hearing this, but a lot of times, you already are...
> 
That's just nonsense. I enjoy as much freedom of choice and movement as anyone 
on the planet. 

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Subash]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 12:31 PM, P N Stenquist  wrote:
>
> On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:28 PM, steve harley wrote:
>
>> On 2010-02-27 06:13 , paul stenquist wrote:
>>>
>>> I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran
>>> and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the
>>> switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S.
>>> support back in the day.
>>
>> so the alternative may also have been better
>
> Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping today.

Paul, you may not like hearing this, but a lot of times, you already are...

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Subash]

thanks for the detailed reply cotty. unfortunately after almost 6
years my compaq laptop just breathed its last. must have something to
do with all the flame wars going on here lately. will get back after i
get myself a new machine :)

regards, subash

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Cotty  wrote:
> On 27/2/10, Subash, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>>Cotty, IIRC, this is the third or fourth time on the list you've said
>>something like that, that it's no longer the same world or something to
>>that effect. i would like you to expand on that, if you may. am just
>>curious to know what exactly you mean by that. you may choose not to, of
>>course :-))
>
> Simply that the idea that someone may not be photographing just for
> personal pleasure anymore - and in fact may be pursuing a line of
> illegality - eg recce of a building entrance, or snapping up little
> girls' skirts, means that the public are more aware of such activities,
> and rightly or wrongly are more likely to highlight innocent activity to
> the authorities.
>
> Someone seemingly 'acting suspiciously' (define that - ha!) in a crowd
> environment is more likely to attract attention in 2010 than only 20 or
> 30 years ago from people who are more aware and informed by the media.
> 20 or 30 years ago much fewer people were aware that there are people
> about who photograph children in compromising situations (for example)
> and even though the activity itself has probably been going on for ages,
> the awareness has only increased relatively recently. Similarly the
> photographing of bridges, buildings etc. I pass no judgement on it being
> right or wrong, just that that is what I see has happened.
>
> Tell you a story. I was filming in the centre of a city and we had
> finished and I was putting my kit away in the back of the land rover. As
> I drove away I noticed a strange woman looking at me and thought she was
> just staring because I was pulling out perilously close to her car or
> something. Next day I had a phone call from the police - was asked if I
> could meet them in a car park that I would be passing close to that day.
> Turns out that the woman had seen something she thought was a gun being
> holstered and put away in the back of my land rover! The police had done
> some digging based on my vehicle registration (license plate) and seeing
> what I did for a living, assumed a mistake in the lady. They were doing
> a 'soft stop' on me to check. I figured out what the lady had seen, I
> have a microphone and holder with wind-gag that look like this:
>
> 
>
> and before it goes in the case the wind gag (the furry part) often needs
> adjusting up tight (looks like a gun going into a holster). We all had a
> good laugh about it - and the copper said he had thought it would be
> something like this - had done the digging and decided a soft stop was
> in order rather than a 'hard stop' which would have involved armed
> police stopping me in an uncompromising manner - slightly scary.
> However, common sense prevailed (as did my website, which they looked at
> in assessing the situation) and we went away chuckling.
>
> My point is that the system worked. The woman might have seen a gun
> going into a holster, and on a different occasion it might have been a
> gun and not a mic. The police did their job well and no harm done. If it
> had been a hard stop instead, the outcome would be the same and aside
> from me being scared out of my wits, would have been just as satisfied.
> Seriously.
>
> That story doesn't really relate to the other stuff above because we
> have had a history of mainland terror in the last half of the last
> century but all the same, I still think public awareness in the UK has
> changed, and anyone out filming or photographing has to be more aware of
> this and in tune with the consequences.
>
> --
>
>
> Cheers,
>  Cotty
>
>
> ___/\__
> ||   (O)  |     People, Places, Pastiche
> --      http://www.cottysnaps.com
> _
>
>
>
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob Sullivan]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:56 PM, William Robb  wrote:
> As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a friend of mine has been accosted by
> the police twice in the past year for photographing while in a wheelchair.

Well no, I believe you said in his VAN.
Van with handicapped plates, I'd wonder.
Old beater van, rusting in spots, I'd be all over it!
Regards,  Bob S.

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "David Savage"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010






The guy with the camera suddenly became the guy with the attitude, and
that's why he was tossed in a cell.



Could you quote me the statute that says having an attitude is against 
the

law?
I'd like to read it.


I'm calling bullshit on that line of thinking. Treat people like shit,
and they will respond in the same manner.

A stupid way to behave with people with enough power to ruin your day.



It still comes down to does the cop have the right to push a bogus 
"investigation" and the person doesn't have the right to call bullshit?
You are granting the cop the absolute right to be abusive and putting all 
the onus on a person who is being harassed to be all touchy feely and nice 
about it and not cause a fuss.


Call bullshit if you like, but when did contempt of cop become a crime?
Quote me the statute.

William Robb


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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Sullivan"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010




Bill,
Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA.
I don't have any trouble taking pictures here.
How about you in Canada?


Satin, I like that.
Smooth, suave, debonair, but somewhat prone to covering things up

I don't run into problems with my photography, but I really don't do very 
much street type photography.
I'm generally either shooting in the studio or in the middle of a field 
somewhere.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a friend of mine has been accosted by 
the police twice in the past year for photographing while in a wheelchair.


William Robb


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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[David Savage]

On 28 February 2010 06:14, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "Cotty"
> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February
> 2010
>
>
>>
>>
>> The guy with the camera suddenly became the guy with the attitude, and
>> that's why he was tossed in a cell.
>>
>
> Could you quote me the statute that says having an attitude is against the
> law?
> I'd like to read it.

I'm calling bullshit on that line of thinking. Treat people like shit,
and they will respond in the same manner.

A stupid way to behave with people with enough power to ruin your day.

DS

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[David Savage]

On 28 February 2010 06:13, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "Cotty"
> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February
> 2010
>
>
>
>> As a point of principle I suppose I agree that stop and search is open
>> to abuse and judging by the original youtube video, it is plain to see.
>> However, I still maintain the bloke in question was being adversarial
>> and that is only going to end up with one result.
>
> That being a false arrest and a monetary settlement I hope.

Exactly. If he hadn't behaved like a "dick" the situation would most
likely worked out differently.

I've been questioned by enough police/security/random citizens when
out photographing stuff fo know, that if you get your back up and have
an attitude the other party will get behave in kind. Keeping the
"confrontation" light and chatty will see the situation resolve in my
favour.

DS

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Re: Freo (was Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010)

[David Savage]

On 28 February 2010 05:10, Derby Chang  wrote:
> David Savage wrote:
>>
>> Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few
>> photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any
>> particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get
>> together).
>>
>> The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of
>> pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the
>> main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more
>> concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact.
>>
>>
>
>
> Will there be a Freo flickr soon?

I won't be posting anything from the outing. I've lost my photo mojo
in the last couple of months, so nothing I shot really worked out.

I only assisted on the above mentioned shot by asking 2 little things
if they wouldn't mind posing for a friends photo.

The frustrating thing though was that another friend had also found 2
willing models so mine went unused :-/ (truth be told the 2 I asked
would have suited the shot better).

DS

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Christine Aguila]

Excellent advice, Joe!  Cheers, Christine


- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph McAllister" 

To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 
2010




Reply at the top:

The best way to preserve our rights as photographers out in the wilds  of 
the general public is to spend more time out in the public taking 
pictures.


In the same way that a photo industry campaign to inform the public  about 
the rights of us all to take pictures pretty much as we please,  getting 
our butts out there and taking those pictures will over time  tend to dull 
the public perception that we are doing anything  subversive.


So, everyone outside today, and shoot your neighbor. And their dog!

Don't forget to make them a print too.


On Feb 27, 2010, at 14:33 , Christine Aguila wrote:


Yep, Ralf's point is well taken!  Cheers, Christine


- Original Message - From: "Ralf R. Radermacher" 
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' 
arrest,February 2010



Charles Robinson  wrote:


And what the hell is an "antisocial" positioning of a camera?
I mean: What complete idiocy.


All this goes a long way at explaining what the media have made of us
photographers and our cameras, over the last two decades, and how the
perception of people with cameras has been changed.

Gone are the days when people would be glad to have their photo taken
and that guy with the camera was generally seen as someone nice.  Now, we
are the monsters that are sneaking up to innocent little children to
satisfy our perverted desires while we're not just chasing another  poor
young princesses into a terrible death.

High time the camera industry had a look at the way the tobacco
companies succeded for decades in telling the world for decades what
nice, sociable and generally desirable company smokers were. Shouldn't
be too difficult to run a little image campaign for photographers. But
they'd better hurry. Noone will be buying their big DSLRs anymore,  once
we'll be reduced to take pictures of the flower pots in our living
room... provided no children are in the frame.

Just imagine what HCB, Doisneau, Erwitt or any other of the great old
street photographers would be faced with, nowadays, in the streets of
London, Paris or Washington.


Joseph McAllister
pentax...@mac.com

"Gaudeamus igitur, juvenes dum sumus..."
http://tinyurl.com/ndmfhb





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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Joseph McAllister]

Reply at the top:

The best way to preserve our rights as photographers out in the wilds  
of the general public is to spend more time out in the public taking  
pictures.


In the same way that a photo industry campaign to inform the public  
about the rights of us all to take pictures pretty much as we please,  
getting our butts out there and taking those pictures will over time  
tend to dull the public perception that we are doing anything  
subversive.


So, everyone outside today, and shoot your neighbor. And their dog!

Don't forget to make them a print too.


On Feb 27, 2010, at 14:33 , Christine Aguila wrote:


Yep, Ralf's point is well taken!  Cheers, Christine


- Original Message - From: "Ralf R. Radermacher" >

To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror'  
arrest,February 2010



Charles Robinson  wrote:


And what the hell is an "antisocial" positioning of a camera?
I mean: What complete idiocy.


All this goes a long way at explaining what the media have made of us
photographers and our cameras, over the last two decades, and how the
perception of people with cameras has been changed.

Gone are the days when people would be glad to have their photo taken
and that guy with the camera was generally seen as someone nice.  
Now, we

are the monsters that are sneaking up to innocent little children to
satisfy our perverted desires while we're not just chasing another  
poor

young princesses into a terrible death.

High time the camera industry had a look at the way the tobacco
companies succeded for decades in telling the world for decades what
nice, sociable and generally desirable company smokers were. Shouldn't
be too difficult to run a little image campaign for photographers. But
they'd better hurry. Noone will be buying their big DSLRs anymore,  
once

we'll be reduced to take pictures of the flower pots in our living
room... provided no children are in the frame.

Just imagine what HCB, Doisneau, Erwitt or any other of the great old
street photographers would be faced with, nowadays, in the streets of
London, Paris or Washington.


Joseph McAllister
pentax...@mac.com

"Gaudeamus igitur, juvenes dum sumus..."
http://tinyurl.com/ndmfhb





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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P N Stenquist]

On Feb 27, 2010, at 5:10 PM, William Robb wrote:



- Original Message - From: "P N Stenquist"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,  
February 2010






Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose  
stepping today. You gotta go with your gut sometimes.


Yup, pick out the one time we should of but didn't, and conveniently  
forget about the times we shouldn't of but did as justification.

Good on ya, you are, if nothing else, highly predictable.


Peace and happiness, Bill.


William Robb

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Christine Aguila]

Yep, Ralf's point is well taken!  Cheers, Christine


- Original Message - 
From: "Ralf R. Radermacher" 

To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February 
2010



Charles Robinson  wrote:


And what the hell is an "antisocial" positioning of a camera?
I mean: What complete idiocy.


All this goes a long way at explaining what the media have made of us
photographers and our cameras, over the last two decades, and how the
perception of people with cameras has been changed.

Gone are the days when people would be glad to have their photo taken
and that guy with the camera was generally seen as someone nice. Now, we
are the monsters that are sneaking up to innocent little children to
satisfy our perverted desires while we're not just chasing another poor
young princesses into a terrible death.

High time the camera industry had a look at the way the tobacco
companies succeded for decades in telling the world for decades what
nice, sociable and generally desirable company smokers were. Shouldn't
be too difficult to run a little image campaign for photographers. But
they'd better hurry. Noone will be buying their big DSLRs anymore, once
we'll be reduced to take pictures of the flower pots in our living
room... provided no children are in the frame.

Just imagine what HCB, Doisneau, Erwitt or any other of the great old
street photographers would be faced with, nowadays, in the streets of
London, Paris or Washington.

Ralf

--
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Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Christine Aguila]

From: "Cotty" 




My point was that the general public are not only more aware of what's
going on around them, but are not afraid to report it.



Agreed.

1) The general public hear repeated taped announcements on subways, buses, 
and airports or are given security recommendations and/or directives in 
work,  school, and neighborhood environments that TELL them to report 
suspicious human activity or alert authorities about packages left alone 
etc--and with recent historical events, the average good Joe and Jane 
citizen decides it might be a good idea to do so.  And when these good 
citizens do so, local LEOs have to follow up.  Sometimes Joe and Jane are 
going to be wrong about what they think they saw.  And sometimes they are 
going to be right.  Sometimes local LEOs are going to behave well in 
handling the situation--and sometimes they will behave badly.


2)  The plethora of image recording devices--camcorders, cell phone cameras, 
DSLRs, video cameras--are more accessible to the public than ever before. 
More people are capturing more human activity than at any time in human 
history.  On the one hand--no problem--photos of friends and family, 
graduations and celebrations, tourist travel, and art--not a problem.  But 
on the other hand, I think it's also made citizens a little suspicious of 
*Everyman*--it's created an atmosphere where folks are concerned about who's 
recording who and what.  They know they can record, and they also know they 
can be recorded.  So they've got their eye switched on to hyper-alert, and 
this hyper-active mode is intensified given the recent historical events 
referred to in point number one, making for a very touchy atmosphere--and 
when you add the various variations of "anti-terrorism legislation/acts" any 
given country might have, it seems to me it makes things even more 
touchy--and certainly much more complicated.


3)  With respect to the video.  It's interesting to me that the police 
officer told the photographer "someone" had made a claim of him engaging in 
"anti-social use of a camera."  I'm not sure how that's being defined, and 
it seems to be an important part of the situation.  I'd really like a 
definition of this.


3a)  Moreover, like Cotty, I don't feel quite right about this guy.  He 
makes the claim that his right do street photography was violated; he makes 
a video which tells us the story, and he shows us the photographs he took 
which depict humans doing things out in public, he puts the video on the 
web--a very public arena, and clearly, based on the statements he makes he 
sees himself as standing up for his rights, yet he does all this from the 
shadows--he blocks his face to protect his *privacy.* That act weakens his 
credibility in my view.  We've seen other video stories on this subject, and 
if my memory is correct, I think the photographers have not hidden their 
faces.  What's this photographer hiding from?  I mean if you're going to 
stand up for your right to make pictures out in public, then claim this 
right has been violated,  but you make said claim *publically*  but with 
your face blocked--what's that all about?


3c)  Folks who sympathize with the photograrapher are assuming the 
photographer is telling the truth about him  *just out taking pictures, 
minding his own business* and that he wasn't using his camera in an 
"anti-social" manner (whatever that means--see point 3).  It occurred to me 
that one could easily stage this kind of event--a kind of set-up 
entrapment--contrive events to provoke behavior of others.  Folks do do this 
kind of stuff all the time to prove a point--when you study journalism here 
in the states you learn them as *staged/contrived media events.*  I'm not 
saying the photographer did this--but I'm also not saying he didn't.  I just 
don't know.


4)   Coming from Chicago, I can assure all my good PDML friends that I am no 
cheerleader for the police.  Gosh, we've had some appalling cases of 
corruption and abuse of authority--heck, downright criminal behavior from 
police officers.  But I agree with Cotty.  It's a different world, and a 
tough one to be in if one is a well intentioned police officer or a 
firefighter or a paramedic.  And I can assure all my good PDML friends that 
I support human rights, and I am VERY concerned about laws that curtail 
human rights and freedoms of expression.  I think think that both sides of 
this discussion have some valid points.  And Cotty, if you get tired of 
Austraila, come by Chicago.  I'll buy ya'a WARM beer!  :-)


Cheers, Christine 




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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Cotty"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010





The activity isn't suspicious - the manner in which it is carried out
could possibly be. Trying to hide the fact one has a camera would come
under that. Think like a policeman!



I'd rather think like my dog. I'd be showing better judgement.

William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Cotty"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010






The guy with the camera suddenly became the guy with the attitude, and
that's why he was tossed in a cell.



Could you quote me the statute that says having an attitude is against the 
law?

I'd like to read it.

William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Cotty"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010





As a point of principle I suppose I agree that stop and search is open
to abuse and judging by the original youtube video, it is plain to see.
However, I still maintain the bloke in question was being adversarial
and that is only going to end up with one result.


That being a false arrest and a monetary settlement I hope.

William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "P N Stenquist"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010




frequently  they have access to more information than the rest of us ever 
get to  see.


Pity they habitually appear to misuse it.

William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "P N Stenquist"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010






Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping 
today. You gotta go with your gut sometimes.


Yup, pick out the one time we should of but didn't, and conveniently forget 
about the times we shouldn't of but did as justification.

Good on ya, you are, if nothing else, highly predictable.

William Robb 



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Freo (was Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010)

[Derby Chang]

David Savage wrote:


Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few
photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any
particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get
together).

The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of
pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the
main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more
concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact.

  



Will there be a Freo flickr soon?

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[steve harley]

On 2010-02-27 11:37 , Cotty wrote:

On 27/2/10, steve harley, discombobulated, unleashed:


i felt the same way too -- he was polite, open and patient; interesting
the difference in perceptions here -- some see such straightforward
behavior as "being a dick" ...


He was being a robot dick. He wasn't interested in having a
conversation, he was more interested in repeating his mantra which was
only going to get on there tits.


like i said, interesting the difference in perceptions

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

Rob Studdert  wrote:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUan2DXBsk
> 
> Sneaky photographers...

Actually, that guy's been rather lucky. I've been stopped by the French
police in Dunkirk, last xmas, taking one of my usual nighttime photos of
the steel mill over there. 

Their line of argument? There are half a dozen Seveso class plants, i.e.
they're working with toxic substances, so I can't photograph them. I was
about to ask them what would make it any more dangerous to take photos
in comparison to walking a dog, speeding along on a quad or fishing
which is what dozens of people were doing there at the same time.

I bit my tongue instead because one doesn't argue with the French
police. They can take you to the station and keep you there for days on
end without having to inform anyone, not even a judge or a prosecutor. I
simply packed everything back into the car while they spent half an hour
on their phones and radios with my ID card, inside their vehicle. 

Oh, and they were extremely suspicious about me speaking French although
my car had German number plates. I told them that foreign languages can
be learned with a little effort. They didn't seem to like this concept.
Note to self: French officials will in the future have to deal with me
in German. That sure will be fun.

Now, for our coming Easter holidays I'll either obtain an official photo
permit from the Dunkirk port authority that I can wave in their faces or
that'll be it as far as my 30 years of travelling to France are
concerned. Pity, really.

Ralf

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

Charles Robinson  wrote:

> And what the hell is an "antisocial" positioning of a camera? 
> I mean: What complete idiocy.

All this goes a long way at explaining what the media have made of us
photographers and our cameras, over the last two decades, and how the
perception of people with cameras has been changed. 

Gone are the days when people would be glad to have their photo taken
and that guy with the camera was generally seen as someone nice. Now, we
are the monsters that are sneaking up to innocent little children to
satisfy our perverted desires while we're not just chasing another poor
young princesses into a terrible death. 

High time the camera industry had a look at the way the tobacco
companies succeded for decades in telling the world for decades what
nice, sociable and generally desirable company smokers were. Shouldn't
be too difficult to run a little image campaign for photographers. But
they'd better hurry. Noone will be buying their big DSLRs anymore, once
we'll be reduced to take pictures of the flower pots in our living
room... provided no children are in the frame.

Just imagine what HCB, Doisneau, Erwitt or any other of the great old
street photographers would be faced with, nowadays, in the streets of
London, Paris or Washington. 

Ralf

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/27 Cotty :
> On 27/2/10, AlunFoto, discombobulated, unleashed:
> Trust the Norwegians to talk some sense :)
>
> On that bombshell, I'm bowing out of this thread. Cheers.

Yeah, I realised I was not synched to the beat of the debate until I
got to about the 90th reply... :-(


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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 27/2/10, AlunFoto, discombobulated, unleashed:

>I fully endorse your POV that this doesn't happen most of the time
>because the police is reasonable. I have a good story about private
>security guards on the Canary Wharf to the same tune. However I do
>think there's something wrong, somewhere, when mistakes happen as
>often as they do, without any visible and measurable positive effect
>in how the police actually protects us from the real bad guys.
>
>Up here in this frostpit, it is maintained that intelligence and
>undercover work is the only way to root out and stop the bad guys.
>Experience says that there are always some bad guys flying under that
>radar too, but raising the issue draws weight away from arguments for
>searching the ordinary bloke with a camera.

Trust the Norwegians to talk some sense :)

On that bombshell, I'm bowing out of this thread. Cheers.

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 27/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Come on - that's not intelligence, that's stupidity. Why are they wasting
>half a day on the computer when someone's reported a possible firearm? They
>should have had you cuffed over the back of that Landy in seconds with a
>dozen pump-action shotguns pointing at your head - what if you'd been about
>to do a Michael Ryan?

lol.



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/27 Cotty :
> On 27/2/10, Subash, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>>if governments thrive by creating paranoia, on a first reading at
>>least, Cotty's post appeared to me as evidence of the fact that they've
>>succeeded quite well.
>
> I do not read the same out of what I wrote as you do Subers. I am not
> paranoid - I perceive the situation and arrive at a conclusion I am
> happy with. I guess that might be paranoia in your books?

Hey Cotty,
The element of paranoia in your story was the woman who reported you
to the police for not understanding what she saw. As people get more
skittish, they're more likely to do so for ever more whimsical
reasons, aren't they. Then if that sort of report reach the wrong sort
of cop, you get the bad kind of story out of it.

I fully endorse your POV that this doesn't happen most of the time
because the police is reasonable. I have a good story about private
security guards on the Canary Wharf to the same tune. However I do
think there's something wrong, somewhere, when mistakes happen as
often as they do, without any visible and measurable positive effect
in how the police actually protects us from the real bad guys.

Up here in this frostpit, it is maintained that intelligence and
undercover work is the only way to root out and stop the bad guys.
Experience says that there are always some bad guys flying under that
radar too, but raising the issue draws weight away from arguments for
searching the ordinary bloke with a camera.

Jostein

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RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob W]

> >>
> >> Bill,
> >> Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA.
> >> I don't have any trouble taking pictures here.
> >> How about you in Canada?
> >
> > Canada is the Great Nylon
> 
> New York & London are the Great Nylon
> 
> Canada is the Great Beaver Pelt
> 

Probably explains why there are so few Brazilians in the Yukon.



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[David Savage]

On 28 February 2010 03:06, Bob W  wrote:
>>
>> Bill,
>> Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA.
>> I don't have any trouble taking pictures here.
>> How about you in Canada?
>
> Canada is the Great Nylon

New York & London are the Great Nylon

Canada is the Great Beaver Pelt

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RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob W]

> 
> Bill,
> Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA.
> I don't have any trouble taking pictures here.
> How about you in Canada?

Canada is the Great Nylon



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[David Savage]

On 28 February 2010 03:00, Bob W  wrote:
> what if you'd been about
> to do a Michael Ryan?

As long as both parties are consenting adults, who are we to care or judge?

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RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob W]

> >The system didn't work.
> >Or more to the point, why does a guy who might have a gun 
> get a "soft stop"
> 
> Because there was intelligence that suggested otherwise - 
> research done before the stop - my website, my employer's 
> identity etc. It would have been far easier to do the hard 
> stop than waste half a day looking into it - and glad they 
> did! I'm happy with that.
> 

Come on - that's not intelligence, that's stupidity. Why are they wasting
half a day on the computer when someone's reported a possible firearm? They
should have had you cuffed over the back of that Landy in seconds with a
dozen pump-action shotguns pointing at your head - what if you'd been about
to do a Michael Ryan?



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RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob W]

> 
> While we're on the subject, here's another one:
> 
> 
> 
> Video as well, half-way down on the left. This is very near me.

That's a great story - a perfect example of how warped their priorities have
become. They're called out because a gang of youths has thrown a bottle at a
woman. They move the youths on, apparently without arresting any of them for
affray, but they stop & search some harmless git with a camera under
anti-terrorism legislation. What a bunch of plonkers.




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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Ken Waller]

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "William Robb" 


Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010





- Original Message - 
From: "Ken Waller"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010


My advice is to stock up on collectible spoons while you can...


Or move to Canada.


A friend of mine here has been hassled twice by the police for 
photographing while being a paraplegic.

It'a quite appalling actually.
The first time, the police wanted him to get out of his vehicle, so he 
asked the officer if he would mind getting him his wheelchair from the 
back of the van.

The cop went away.
The next time, the police came to his door and questioned him fairly 
severely. He voluntarily showed them the contents of his computer, and 
they went away.


Stupidity is not confined to a specific vocation.




This was caused by people getting their shorts in a knot because they saw 
a large camera in public.

The train has left the atation here as well.
The trend is to take big cameras off the street, not all cameras.
Anyone who says the world changed after 9/11 should be prepared to justify 
exactly what sort of threat the big camera represents that a cell phone 
camera or P&S camera doesnt.


Why do we still allow cars to drive through the downtowns of our cities? 
Any one of them could be a car bomber looking for a nice office tower to 
blow up.
Why is that not looked upon as a threat, but the hobby photographer with 
an SLR is?
I submit, most respectfully that it is a propoganda campaign as evil as 
any that we've ever seen, and anyone that buys into it is just not 
thinking very hard.



William Robb



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob Sullivan]

Bill,
Aren't we the Great Satin or what down here in the USA.
I don't have any trouble taking pictures here.
How about you in Canada?
Regards,  Bob S.

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:42 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest,February
> 2010
>
>
>
>> I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran
>> and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the
>> switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S.
>> support back in the day.
>
> Meddling with other peoples governments is usually not a very good thing to
> do.
> The USA seems to think it have a God given right to do it, and then justify
> it under the theory that if it's good for the USA it's good for everyone.
> It usually works out to be bad for everyone, just less bad for the USA in
> that less Americans get killed by a factor of a thousand or so.
>
> William Robb
>
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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[David Savage]

On 28 February 2010 02:40, Cotty  wrote:
> On 28/2/10, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>>Fremantle, Australia.
>>
>>Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few
>>photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any
>>particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get
>>together).
>>
>>The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of
>>pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the
>>main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more
>>concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact.
>>
>>You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from
>>constantly snapping if left & right. I was spoilt for choice & didn't
>>know where to look.
>>
>>Gawd I love hot summer evenings.
>>
>>
>
> I would consider Australia. Someone else was telling me they would go
> back in an instant. Oh yeah my neighbour.
>
> Apparently I started the holocaust or something, do you think they would
> still let me in?

Sure. Bring beer & your sense of humour.

Most of the rest of the world takes itself way too seriously.

DS

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 28/2/10, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Fremantle, Australia.
>
>Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few
>photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any
>particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get
>together).
>
>The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of
>pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the
>main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more
>concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact.
>
>You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from
>constantly snapping if left & right. I was spoilt for choice & didn't
>know where to look.
>
>Gawd I love hot summer evenings.
>
>

I would consider Australia. Someone else was telling me they would go
back in an instant. Oh yeah my neighbour.

Apparently I started the holocaust or something, do you think they would
still let me in?

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 27/2/10, steve harley, discombobulated, unleashed:

>i felt the same way too -- he was polite, open and patient; interesting
>the difference in perceptions here -- some see such straightforward
>behavior as "being a dick" ...

He was being a robot dick. He wasn't interested in having a
conversation, he was more interested in repeating his mantra which was
only going to get on there tits.

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 27/2/10, steve harley, discombobulated, unleashed:

>so someone sees something that at a glance could be easily mistaken for
>a pistol being stashed away; that's a totally different scenario than a
>photographer openly taking pictures

I didn't say they were the same thing.

I said, tell you a story.

My point was that the general public are not only more aware of what's
going on around them, but are not afraid to report it.

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 27/2/10, steve harley, discombobulated, unleashed:

>it is exactly in how they choose whom to stop & search that authority
>can be abused

Agreed - note your own words: 'can be'.

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

While we're on the subject, here's another one:



Video as well, half-way down on the left. This is very near me.

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[John Francis]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 12:25:58PM -0500, P N Stenquist wrote:
>
> On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:42 AM, William Robb wrote:
>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
>> Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror'  
>> arrest,February 2010
>>
>>
>>
>>> I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega 
>>> Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way 
>>> to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and 
>>> Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day.
>>
>> Meddling with other peoples governments is usually not a very good  
>> thing to do.
>
> That's what Chamberlain said about Hitler. Didn't work.

I call Godwin.  Now can we drop this thread, too?


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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 27/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:

>There's an enormous difference between your story about your furry friend,
>and the hassle that a lot of people get. In your case a woman reported her
>suspicions, the police followed up on the report, clarified that nothing
>untoward was happening and the story was done. That's how it should work.
>All too often it doesn't work that way. If she had reported me wandering
>around with a camera hidden in my jacket the police would have checked me
>out, quite reasonably. Having established that it was a camera and not a
>Colt 45, do you think they would allow me to go about my business? Would
>they buggery! They would try to move me on. I know this because it's
>happened before to me and to other amateur photographers. Now, I'm a middle
>class, middle-aged, mild-mannered white guy. How do you think they react to
>young Muslim lads who want to take a few pictures?

To quote another contributor: you've just justified the holocaust.

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Paranoia doesn't mean that you are wrong, it can mean that you know you are
>right and are concerned.

Hall of fame. mark!

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[David Savage]

On 28 February 2010 02:15, Cotty  wrote:
> On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed:
>>and a guy with a camera gets tossed in a cell?
>
> The guy with the camera suddenly became the guy with the attitude, and
> that's why he was tossed in a cell.

WRT the video...

While I find the reason for the initial police approach disconcerting,
the subject did himself no favours with his somewhat belligerent
attitude.

There is a right & a wrong way to deal with the boys & girls in blue.
He picked the wrong way, and made an unpleasant situation much worse.

DS

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed:

>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Cotty"
>
>
>>
>> I think your premise is wrong. The threat comes from smaller cameras and
>> cell phones just as much as big cameras. It is the activity that
>> attracts attention, not the size of the camera IMO. YMMV.
>
>Photographing in public places during public celebrations?

If I were a policeman and saw someone I thought was acting suspiciously
(definition of 'suspiciously' - ack, your guess is as good as mine) I
would certainly monitor that person. If they had a cellphone or a larger
camera it wouldn't matter to me. I'm a police officer so am slightly let
down by my ignorance - I will watch the larger camera...

>Photographing while brown?

Race?

>Photographing architecture?

Anything anywhere - it's a different world now :-)))

>
>Who decided that this sort of activity was suspicious.
>And if it is, why isn't it illegal?

The activity isn't suspicious - the manner in which it is carried out
could possibly be. Trying to hide the fact one has a camera would come
under that. Think like a policeman!

>And why is it still legal to drive a lorry up beside a building? Hase no one
>ever heard of car bombs?
>Any one of the vehicles that you walk past could potentially blow up and
>kill you.
>It's been proven time and again that this can happen.
>Why is photographing a building downtown subject to police harassment but
>parking a car beside that same building not?

There are parts of London where this is the case - heavy CCTV, patrols,
no parking. Financial district etc.

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed:

>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Cotty"
>Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February
>2010

>
>>
>> Someone seemingly 'acting suspiciously' (define that - ha!) in a crowd
>> environment is more likely to attract attention in 2010 than only 20 or
>> 30 years ago from people who are more aware and informed by the media.
>> 20 or 30 years ago much fewer people were aware that there are people
>> about who photograph children in compromising situations (for example)
>> and even though the activity itself has probably been going on for ages,
>> the awareness has only increased relatively recently. Similarly the
>> photographing of bridges, buildings etc. I pass no judgement on it being
>> right or wrong, just that that is what I see has happened.
>>
>> Tell you a story. I was filming in the centre of a city and we had
>> finished and I was putting my kit away in the back of the land rover. As
>> I drove away I noticed a strange woman looking at me and thought she was
>> just staring because I was pulling out perilously close to her car or
>> something. Next day I had a phone call from the police - was asked if I
>> could meet them in a car park that I would be passing close to that day.
>> Turns out that the woman had seen something she thought was a gun being
>> holstered and put away in the back of my land rover! The police had done
>> some digging based on my vehicle registration (license plate) and seeing
>> what I did for a living, assumed a mistake in the lady. They were doing
>> a 'soft stop' on me to check. I figured out what the lady had seen, I
>> have a microphone and holder with wind-gag that look like this:
>>
>> <http://tinyurl.com/notagun>
>>
>> and before it goes in the case the wind gag (the furry part) often needs
>> adjusting up tight (looks like a gun going into a holster). We all had a
>> good laugh about it - and the copper said he had thought it would be
>> something like this - had done the digging and decided a soft stop was
>> in order rather than a 'hard stop' which would have involved armed
>> police stopping me in an uncompromising manner - slightly scary.
>> However, common sense prevailed (as did my website, which they looked at
>> in assessing the situation) and we went away chuckling.
>>
>> My point is that the system worked.
>
>The system didn't work.
>Or more to the point, why does a guy who might have a gun get a "soft stop"

Because there was intelligence that suggested otherwise - research done
before the stop - my website, my employer's identity etc. It would have
been far easier to do the hard stop than waste half a day looking into
it - and glad they did! I'm happy with that.

>and a guy with a camera gets tossed in a cell?

The guy with the camera suddenly became the guy with the attitude, and
that's why he was tossed in a cell.

>Are you not seeing a disconnect in logic here?

Not at all.

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[David Savage]

On 28 February 2010 02:02, David Savage  wrote:
> On 27 February 2010 19:17, Cotty  wrote:
>> On 26/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:
>>
>>>I think you're 100% wrong on this, Cotty. I refer you to Willcock vs Muckle:
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Henry_Willcock
>>>
>>>The PCSO in that film was an idiot, which is to be expected of PCSOs. The
>>>policewoman was bang out of order, abusing her authority. The photographer
>>>appears to know his rights rather more than most of us do, so presumably was
>>>deliberately pushing for this to happen, just as Willcock did in 1951, but
>>>somebody needs to put a stop to this type of abuse of authority.
>>
>> Hmm - there is nothing in the above para that I disagree with except the
>> abuse of authority bit. If the police have the power to stop and search
>> under a lawful act, how is that an abuse of authority?
>>
>> In any society you're going to get unscripted and spontaneous incidents
>> on the ground and these probably happen in the dozens in the UK every
>> day. Name me a few countries in the world where this sort of incident
>> would have had a better outcome and I will consider moving there.
>
> Fremantle, Australia.
>
> Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few
> photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any
> particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get
> together).
>
> The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of
> pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the
> main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more
> concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact.


...we were taking photos

> You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from
> constantly snapping if left & right. I was spoilt for choice & didn't
> know where to look.
>
> Gawd I love hot summer evenings.
>
> 
>
> DS
>

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 27/2/10, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed:

>The abuse then goes one level higher to the people who made the laws.
>You have just justified the Holocaust.

Cheers bill.

I always did like smoky bacon crisps.

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Cotty]

On 27/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:

>The stop and search powers are essentially the same as the sus law which was
>repealed back in the 80s because it was abused to such an extent that it was
>a major factor in the race riots of that time. The police abuse their
>authority whenever they stop someone without due cause for suspicion. Now,
>that's wide open to interpretation of course, but hiding a Leica behind your
>back or inside your jacket normal and legal for a certain type of
>photography, which is itself legal. People going about their business should
>not be subject to this sort of thing. The stop and search powers are
>themselves an abuse of power by the government and by the police, and have
>been ruled illegal by the European Court of Human Rights.

>http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/stop-and-search/
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8453878.stm

Interesting links, thanks.

I didn't know about the 'sus' law, or if I did, I'd forgotten about it.
Came back from the USA in 76 and spent 10 years inebriated so that may
have been why...

>The police abuse their
>authority whenever they stop someone without due cause for suspicion. Now,
>that's wide open to interpretation of course

I think this seems to be the crux of the matter.

I was thinking 'why doesn't it bother me??' The only thing I can think
of is that for the past 23 years I have been subjected to intense
'processing' because of my work. Everywhere I go, I have to sign in and
sign out, give details, fill in forms, give explanations sometimes ad-
hoc on the moment, sometimes in advance. I have been searched and
cleansed going in and out of prisons, police stations, military bases,
RAF bases, naval bases, research establishments, everything - from down
in a sewer to Buckingham palace and everywhere inbetween - you name it.
I have dozens of passport pics ready to go as they need sending to every
sort of establishment you can imagine for accreditation.

I can remember a time when I didn't like being a number and refused to
wear clip-on ID tags when filming on various premises - I used to clip
them to the front of the camera. Stick-on tags I stuck onto the wooly
mic cover. Now it doesn't bother me. In fact I found out that the more
you jump through the hoops they put in front of you, the more you get
what you want. Facing off against a jobsworth is so incredibly boring to
me that I avoid it like the plague. I do the opposite - I make a friend
with the jobsworth, and because of that I end up getting what I want or
need with minimal fuss and effort, and usually with a cup of tea thrown
in for good measure.

As a point of principle I suppose I agree that stop and search is open
to abuse and judging by the original youtube video, it is plain to see.
However, I still maintain the bloke in question was being adversarial
and that is only going to end up with one result.

I suppose if I didn't do the job I do, and was (say) an IT guru who
enjoyed photography in public places, and it happened to me, then there
is a chance that I would have an adverse reaction as well. The problem
is, I can't hypothesize about that because my view is toned by my
history. All I can see is a bloke being adversarial and getting what was
coming to him. A name and address and a friendly chat about camera clubs
and he could have been on his way photographing again in minutes. What
is so difficult about that?





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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P N Stenquist]

On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:33 PM, steve harley wrote:


On 2010-02-27 10:31 , P N Stenquist wrote:


On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:28 PM, steve harley wrote:


On 2010-02-27 06:13 , paul stenquist wrote:
I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a  
mega
Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no  
way

to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and
Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day.


so the alternative may also have been better


Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping
today. You gotta go with your gut sometimes.


now you seem sure the alternative would have been worse

I'm sure that the alternative to intervention proved worse in the  
1930s. Don't know what would have happened if things had been handled  
differently in recent situations. Just saying that those who decide  
these things sometimes have to trust their instincts, and frequently  
they have access to more information than the rest of us ever get to  
see.



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[David Savage]

On 27 February 2010 19:17, Cotty  wrote:
> On 26/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>>I think you're 100% wrong on this, Cotty. I refer you to Willcock vs Muckle:
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Henry_Willcock
>>
>>The PCSO in that film was an idiot, which is to be expected of PCSOs. The
>>policewoman was bang out of order, abusing her authority. The photographer
>>appears to know his rights rather more than most of us do, so presumably was
>>deliberately pushing for this to happen, just as Willcock did in 1951, but
>>somebody needs to put a stop to this type of abuse of authority.
>
> Hmm - there is nothing in the above para that I disagree with except the
> abuse of authority bit. If the police have the power to stop and search
> under a lawful act, how is that an abuse of authority?
>
> In any society you're going to get unscripted and spontaneous incidents
> on the ground and these probably happen in the dozens in the UK every
> day. Name me a few countries in the world where this sort of incident
> would have had a better outcome and I will consider moving there.

Fremantle, Australia.

Today I spent 5 hours wandering the streets of Fremantle with a few
photographer friends. We were very obvious, and we didn't get any
particularly strange looks (we do silly looking things when we get
together).

The only time the cops approached us is after we talked a couple of
pretty little things to pose on the median strip in the centre of the
main street with cars driving past on either side. And they were more
concerned for us getting hit by an idiot driver, than the fact.

You should move here anyway for the scenery. I have a sore neck from
constantly snapping if left & right. I was spoilt for choice & didn't
know where to look.

Gawd I love hot summer evenings.



DS

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[steve harley]

On 2010-02-27 10:31 , P N Stenquist wrote:


On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:28 PM, steve harley wrote:


On 2010-02-27 06:13 , paul stenquist wrote:

I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega
Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way
to flip the switch and see what might have happened if Afghan and
Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day.


so the alternative may also have been better


Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping
today. You gotta go with your gut sometimes.


now you seem sure the alternative would have been worse

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[mike wilson]

Cotty wrote:

On 26/2/10, Rob Studdert, discombobulated, unleashed:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUan2DXBsk

Sneaky photographers...



Sorry but that guy was being a total dick. he was adversarial by nature
and got what was coming to him - because the police can. It's not the
same as it was only a few years ago, we live in a different society -
admittedly not an ideal society but whose fault is that...

Net result, they have his details and he spent 8 hours detained, so
where is his victory?

If 99 innocent snappers get asked for their details (with nothing to
hide) and the 100th turns out to be a nutter casing the joint, or a
peado or whatever, then my tax money is working. I don't want to live in
fear on the street as I might elsewhere in the world.


I'd like to have seen him try it in 99% of other countries.  His head 
would have been lumpier than school custard.


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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P N Stenquist]

On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:28 PM, steve harley wrote:


On 2010-02-27 06:13 , paul stenquist wrote:
I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a  
mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's  
no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if  
Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day.


so the alternative may also have been better


Of course. But if no one ever intervened, we'd all be goose stepping  
today. You gotta go with your gut sometimes.

Paul


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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[steve harley]

On 2010-02-27 06:13 , paul stenquist wrote:

I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a mega Iran and a 
strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's no way to flip the switch 
and see what might have happened if Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support 
back in the day.


so the alternative may also have been better

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[P N Stenquist]

On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:42 AM, William Robb wrote:



- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror'  
arrest,February 2010




I think that's true, but the alternative may have been worse: a  
mega Iran and a strong Soviet presence in the middle east. There's  
no way to flip the switch and see what might have happened if  
Afghan and Iraq hadn't had U.S. support back in the day.


Meddling with other peoples governments is usually not a very good  
thing to do.


That's what Chamberlain said about Hitler. Didn't work.


The USA seems to think it have a God given right to do it, and then  
justify it under the theory that if it's good for the USA it's good  
for everyone.



It usually works out to be bad for everyone, just less bad for the  
USA in that less Americans get killed by a factor of a thousand or so.


William Robb

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[steve harley]

On 2010-02-27 09:29 , William Robb wrote:

I saw the video, at no time did I think the guy was disrespectful of the
cop, he just demanded that the cop justify her actions.


i felt the same way too -- he was polite, open and patient; interesting 
the difference in perceptions here -- some see such straightforward 
behavior as "being a dick" ...


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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[steve harley]

On 2010-02-27 04:40 , Cotty wrote:

 I figured out what the lady had seen, I
have a microphone and holder with wind-gag that look like this:



and before it goes in the case the wind gag (the furry part) often needs
adjusting up tight (looks like a gun going into a holster).


so someone sees something that at a glance could be easily mistaken for 
a pistol being stashed away; that's a totally different scenario than a 
photographer openly taking pictures



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Graydon]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:23:55AM -0600, William Robb scripsit:
> Why is photographing a building downtown subject to police harassment but 
> parking a car beside that same building not?

Because pictures of police misconduct frequently have direct career
consequences, *and* it's a deeply-absorbed movie-plot threat, while cars
are normative symbols of security and prosperity, on the other.

Stuff you hear repeated enough affects your thinking _even when you know
it's wrong_.  (Neurologists are having a fun time with this stuff of
late.  Makes it really hard to think of yourself as rational.)

I wouldn't assume anybody in uniform knows the movie plot stuff is
wrong; some do, many don't.  The bit about pictures having political and
career consequences *isn't* wrong, and SLRs are associated with
photojournalists, whom the police generally do not like.

-- Graydon

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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[steve harley]

On 2010-02-27 00:55 , William Robb wrote:

The fact that in Britain a street photographer who has done no wrong can
be arrested for "antisocial positioning of a camera" should scare the
living shit out of anyone who leaves their home with a camera strap
around their neck.


or provoke us to do more to raise awareness of the issue ...

not too long after 20010911 i went to see Utah Philips, now dead, a 
truly beautiful man who spent his life spouting sensible things that 
many would label crazy, antisocial or even traitorous; in one tangent he 
addressed the then-topical notion that George W. Bush propounded -- that 
citizens should spy for the government ,- e.g. delivery people, meter 
readers, plumbers, etc. should seek out and report any suspicious 
activity on behalf of the government


so Utah gave us all buttons that said simply "SPY", and encouraged us to 
wear them as badges of our presidentially-sanctioned status; i had mine 
for years on the strap of my Canon PowerShot G3; aside from the many 
chances i got to answer questions about the button, it was also useful a 
few times when i was challenged about photos i was taking -- i could say 
that the president had asked me to spy, so i had special authority to 
take pictures of this industrial lot (or whatever)


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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob W"
Subject: RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010





Photographing in public places during public celebrations?
Photographing while brown?
Photographing architecture?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y



Errrm, well, yes.
The police do seem to have taken that one to heart, haven't they.

William Robb 



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Re: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob W"
Subject: RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 
2010





There's an enormous difference between your story about your furry friend,
and the hassle that a lot of people get. In your case a woman reported her
suspicions, the police followed up on the report, clarified that nothing
untoward was happening and the story was done. That's how it should work.
All too often it doesn't work that way. If she had reported me wandering
around with a camera hidden in my jacket the police would have checked me
out, quite reasonably. Having established that it was a camera and not a
Colt 45, do you think they would allow me to go about my business? Would
they buggery! They would try to move me on. I know this because it's
happened before to me and to other amateur photographers. Now, I'm a 
middle
class, middle-aged, mild-mannered white guy. How do you think they react 
to

young Muslim lads who want to take a few pictures?



Good point. Cotty seems to be trying to treat this as an isolated incident 
that has never happened before, rather than part of the pogrom that is 
ongoing.


William Robb 



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RE: UK: Photographer films his own 'anti-terror' arrest, February 2010

[Bob W]

> 
> Photographing in public places during public celebrations?
> Photographing while brown?
> Photographing architecture?
> 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y



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