Perl++ Wikicosm (was: wiki engine architecture (was: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6))
-Original Message- From: A. Pagaltzis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] All I can think of is YAGNI. Good point, but I wonder how many other people recognize the significance of that crypticism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YAGNI http://www.jera.com/techinfo/xpfaq.html Other good guidelines to keep in mind (for purposes of this project): Start with the smallest useful feature set. Do the simplest thing that could possibly work. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6 Wiki.) www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
Re: OT: wiki engine architecture (was: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
On 07/06/06, A. Pagaltzis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's use Perl 6 Grammars to define syntaxes. We are just about to get this mindblowingly awesome tool for parsing; why insist on tieing our feet together and having to hop around like that? This is the smartest suggestion I've yet seen on the subject, but, not being all *that* familiar with Perl6 Grammars (aren't they something like contextually-smart regexes?), can anyone give an example of Perl 6 code that uses grammars and can express some wiki-formatting? Also, is this thread trying to define the standard for a winning wiki (eg to get the grand you must use perl 6 Grammars) or is this more of a community effort to actually produce a wiki? Not sure where that prize thread ended up. -- Michael
Re: OT: wiki engine architecture (was: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
Michael Mathews wrote: This is the smartest suggestion I've yet seen on the subject, but, not being all *that* familiar with Perl6 Grammars (aren't they something like contextually-smart regexes?), can anyone give an example of Perl 6 code that uses grammars and can express some wiki-formatting? Yes, that'd be VERY helpful, as I am not sure whether I'd be able to produce a Perl6 grammar without examples. Also, is this thread trying to define the standard for a winning wiki (eg to get the grand you must use perl 6 Grammars) or is this more of a community effort to actually produce a wiki? Not sure where that prize thread ended up. I am not sure how all others see it, but initially it is divided. *It* meaning the specification and the tools used to meet the spec, so probably we should just try to list up some of the features that it OUGHT to have and then hopefully end up having ALL the features listed. From my point of view the major aim is *getting a web-something to enable us to document, communicate, structure and manage knowledge*. Is this so? Then - IMO - the key features would be: - Simple but expressive wiki-syntax providing stuff like code highlighting - as to the line-based vs. block-based battle: I think a combination of both has its advantages - Revision control and diff stuff - easy user interface - easy storage backend, initially a file based thing with file locks (maybe in YAML even?) like UseMod uses one - File upload (for pics), maybe file inclusion mechanism to make wiki pages modular (e.g. include: head.p6w include: navi.p6w = heading = stuff... ...stuff include: footer.p6w ) where head.p6w etc. could have been uploaded or so - Link management, means to rename pages, links or even globally rename strings (- missed this one sometimes) - (sitewide) search facility - maybe hierarchical structure for subpages or sections - oh, IMO quite important: enhanced CSS support, because everything else is hell Can't think of much else to get started but I guess this is enough already ;) Regards, Udo -- That which is not good for the bee-hive cannot be good for the bees.
Re: OT: wiki engine architecture (was: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
I would recommend using a templating system as opposed to having calls to include files in numerous pages. Even though it's minimal, it's still duplication, and it can get rather messy. I know that some people don't know about or don't like it, but I would recommend setting things up in a Model-View-Controller pattern, partially to approach the templating thing. If we sequester the database-specific stuff from the templating-specific stuff and the primary logic, it provides for a more orthogonal system. However, MVC is just one solution. I'm open to others. Regardless, though, I know we need to find a structure that inherently works well in modular development with a big (if somewhat disparate) team. Also, what is the best place to begin learning the Perl6 syntax? A tutorial would be great, as a dry technical specification of the language doesn't teach very well. M.T.
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Udo Güngerich schrieb: Thomas Wittek wrote: Unfortunately you probably have to throw away/heavily modify earlier increments, if you add features like a flexible syntax, which will need a different internal infrastructure. Well, if object-oriented design has any advantage at all, here it is! [..] Only you will have to define the abstract class or plugin bay from the first minute in the right way (the only was softly ironic). Of course. But I guess that the architecture/design for such a flexible piece of software will be relatively complex. I think that creating this architecture might even take too long to get a running wiki quickly. Where quickly of course is a term still to be defined ;) -Thomas
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Juerd schrieb: * Markdown does not have tables. * Textile does not have paragraphs in table cells. * Kwiki does not have paragraphs in table cells. Unless someone comes up with another way to do side-by-side layouts (extremely useful for showcasing differences between Perl 5 and Perl 6), all of these formats are not suitable. I suppose doing it the Perl-way: Stealing the best of each syntax, adding what's missing. I don't think that we have to choose an existing syntax, but can create one that combines the best features of the existing ones. Of course, this would be more work. Probably it will not be easy to get a common agreement of what's best. Additionally the mixed up syntax shouldn't look too inconsistent - but that won't be too hard I think. Also some restrictions have to be considered. E.g. if we want to allow block oriented parsing (nested blocks in other blocks), the syntax must be unambiguous on how to detect blocks (within other blocks). That's mainly what I did as stated in my first post[1]. Look at several wiki-syntaxes and combine, what _I_ think is the syntax suited best for a wiki. And I think that such a (then collaborative) process might be a good idea for the definition of the syntax of this wiki. -Thomas
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Damn, forgot the link. Thomas Wittek schrieb: That's mainly what I did as stated in my first post[1]. [...] [1]: news://nntp.perl.org:119/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: wiki engine architecture (was: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
* Thomas Wittek [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-06-07 15:05]: I guess that the architecture/design for such a flexible piece of software will be relatively complex. All I can think of is “YAGNI”. Defining a syntax in a configuration file doesn’t strike me as a particularly smart move. You will either end up with a pretty rigid parser that caters to a class of only superficially different syntaxes, in which case diversity equals drawback because you have to cope with documents written in incompatible (though similar) syntaxes for no real gain (because all the syntaxes are similar in expressiveness). Or you will end up writing a parser interpreter whose “configuration” is really a more or less turing complete language. I’ve seen this sort of thing play out all too many times. And I’m pretty sick of little languages by now. (Hey, wasn’t that why Larry began writing Perl in the first place?) Let’s use Perl 6 Grammars to define syntaxes. We are just about to get this mindblowingly awesome tool for parsing; why insist on tieing our feet together and having to hop around like that? Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Thomas Wittek wrote: Noone other than Mediawiki uses the Mediawiki syntax. I posit that the reason is that that syntax blows chunks. I have to agree. 'bold and italic' is definitely not what I understand as an intuitive syntax. Hi everyone, I'd like to mention that the mediawiki syntax is mainly borrowed from UseModWiki, which is written in Perl and quite easy to use. I do drive my own homepage with it (http://www.udo-guengerich.de - and sorry for all the nasty German on it ;)) and are quite content with it, apart from some small minor annoyances. The version I use is a patched one with some patches from myself, it does: * not care whether people prefer CamelCase or [[Free Links]], because you can configure it * execute perl/perl tags (http://www.udo-guengerich.de/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Die_Password) * Include files (containing UseModWiki syntax: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TextFormattingRules) for enhancing modularity * InterWiki-Links * diff stuff and revision control plus rollback It is far from being perfect, but it implements some interesting ideas. Still I found it - using it not as wiki but as mini-CMS for my homepage - being constricting at some points. I did some work on designing an easy wiki syntax for a wiki plugin for my (yet another...)[1] webdev framework. I looked at the syntax of several wikis and tried to create an easy to write (and to parse) syntax: http://gedankenkonstrukt.de/konstrukt/syntax.html So there came another idea to my mind which I thought you might want to consider for a possible perl6-wiki that might push advocacy?! Why not doing a wiki system that does NOT have a fix syntax but rather allows defining its syntax rules in e.g. YAML and thus being entirely flexible? It could be distributed with a default set of rules reflecting the UseMod/MediaWiki/Markdown syntax, but any versatile computer user could just as easyly define another ruleset, maybe even for just a subset of pages (e.g. a code related section where you need less common formatting stuff and more highlighting). It should have a proper user/groups system as well... Another idea was formed by the problem of page renaming, typo correction, etc., etc. Why not give the wiki a web service API for being easily able to create bots without being forced to use libcurl or that kind of thing? Then you could be able to create whole sections on your website that are automatically updated, following your rules. (And no, I would not use XML for the webservice API, rather YAML, because it has a much better data/user data rario) This actually has been implemented and works fine. It's not released yet and also not intended to be a base for a perl6-wiki. I'm just posting it to suggest a possible syntax. Interestingly it is very similar to Markdown although I never heard about it before :) Regards, -Thomas [1]: I believe everyone has to build one on its own ;) I can share this believe ;) Regards, Udo -- That which is not good for the bee-hive cannot be good for the bees.
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Ask Bjørn Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Woah, we are getting really far away from talking about perl6 here... Kind of a usenet law or corollary? Every discussion about wikis ends in a discussion about the best wiki syntax. Steffen -- Steffen Schwigon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dresden Perl Mongers http://dresden-pm.org/
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Udo Güngerich schrieb: Why not doing a wiki system that does NOT have a fix syntax but rather allows defining its syntax rules in e.g. YAML and thus being entirely flexible? [..] It should have a proper user/groups system as well... [..] Why not give the wiki a web service API [..] Good ideas. But maybe we should start a bit smaller ;) It might be a good idea to create a list of features separated in several increments (releases) to get a running system early. I could imagine increments like Parsing/Converting, Storage backend/Revision control, User management, ... Unfortunately you probably have to throw away/heavily modify earlier increments, if you add features like a flexible syntax, which will need a different internal infrastructure. But targeting such a feature monster will probably take too much development time. Maybe a feature complete version could be targeted as the Perl6-Wiki-Software. But before this one a Lite Version, which will be used to have a wiki quickly available, could be developed. -Thomas
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Ask Bj�rn Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Woah, we are getting really far away from talking about perl6 here... Kind of a usenet law or corollary? Every discussion about wikis ends You're being a bit optimistic there, aren't you? The only way you'd end a my-wiki-is-better-than-yours thread would be to move over to some less controversial issue, like text editors or the Iraq invasion. in a discussion about the best wiki syntax. -- And I see losing love is like a window in your heart: everybody sees you're blown apart; everybody sees the wind blow in Graceland. -- Paul Simon, 1986 ... I am the Dance Commander, and I order FUN! http://surreal.istic.org/ - Installing Windows in your heart since 2003. pgpzDqG9HxT4B.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Iraq invasion indeed wait, shouldn't go there. I particularly like the syntax of Textile or even Markdown (preferring the former). In Ruby-land, these exist as RedCloth and BlueCloth. I understand porting isn't fun, but I think that this is a viable option, if not a great choice. Not that this is a great example, but Instiki uses the Textile/RedCloth syntax for textual formatting. As an aside, I must apologize for interrupting in a conversation that I've only been privileged to see the last four responses. I'm extremely interested in learning Perl6 and in particular seeing this Wiki come to fruition (if not participating myself). Thought I'd offer up my suggestion about syntax. I'll wait on participating more until I've read more of what's already been said. M.T.
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
On Tue, 2006-06-06 at 10:59 -0400, Matt Todd wrote: snip I particularly like the syntax of Textile or even Markdown (preferring the former). In Ruby-land, these exist as RedCloth and BlueCloth. I understand porting isn't fun, but I think that this is a viable option, if not a great choice. snip For what it's worth, there is an existing Textile implementation in Perl5 (Text::Textile on CPAN), and it seems reasonably functional from my (very) limited time playing with it. That should at least ease the initial porting - or the module could be used as-is (hooray for P5 - P6 interoperability!), and ported over time. I'd also like to second the Textile suggestion. Of the prepackaged wiki syntax styles I've seen, it seems to be one of the cleanest while still being nicely expressive. Hez
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
* Markdown does not have tables. * Textile does not have paragraphs in table cells. * Kwiki does not have paragraphs in table cells. Unless someone comes up with another way to do side-by-side layouts (extremely useful for showcasing differences between Perl 5 and Perl 6), all of these formats are not suitable. Juerd -- http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html http://convolution.nl/make_juerd_happy.html http://convolution.nl/gajigu_juerd_n.html
OT: my wiki syntax is better than yours (was: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
* Juerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-06-06 17:50]: side-by-side layouts (extremely useful for showcasing differences between Perl 5 and Perl 6) Good point. * Markdown does not have tables. But it lets you embed verbatim HTML as an escape hatch for constructs that it does not model, and although it will normally not format the content of block-level HTML tags, you can ask it to do so anyway by adding a `markdown=1` attribute to a particular tag. There have also been several long discussions about tables and definition lists on the Markdown mailing list, too (some started by Gruber himself). Table and DL syntax will eventually be added. * Textile does not have paragraphs in table cells. Textile does not support nesting constructs (like code blocks within list items or the like) at all. * Kwiki does not have paragraphs in table cells. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: OT: my wiki syntax is better than yours (was: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
There are alternatives to using tables for side-by-side using paragraphs. Simply having one cell for each line, for instance, allows for highlighting green the added lines and red the removed ones, etc. Also realize that it is not necessarily the duty of Textile (et al) to handle that aspect beyond text formatting. A diff or history-revision view goes beyond the context of the tool. Lastly, I'm not sure paragraphs belong in table cells. You could certainly argue that a paragraph could full well be tabular data, but I find it hard to believe that it fits the bill. (This is speaking on an XHTML 1.0 Strict basis.) So, in that regard, I don't believe that this is an issue. The real reason to use Textile (for instance) is the natural ease of using it for most things we need. Just a thought. M.T.
Re: OT: my wiki syntax is better than yours (was: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
Also realize that it is not necessarily the duty of Textile (et al) to handle that aspect beyond text formatting. A diff or history-revision view goes beyond the context of the tool. I don't think Juerd was talking about tables for the purposes of showing version diffs, but so you can give pairs of examples of equivalent Perl 5 and Perl 6 code side-by-side. -- I tried snorting coke once, but the bubbles went right up my nose and I knocked the glass over. -- 'Sordid Confessions of a Teenage Innocent' http://surreal.istic.org/It means peace. pgpICvvt4Ocpz.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: my wiki syntax is better than yours (was: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
Matt Todd skribis 2006-06-06 16:46 (-0400): There are alternatives to using tables for side-by-side using paragraphs. Simply having one cell for each line, for instance, allows for highlighting green the added lines and red the removed ones, etc. Visually pleasing, but technically incorrect, and practically annoying: selecting a block of code is no longer possible, let alone testing and running it automatically. Also realize that it is not necessarily the duty of Textile (et al) to handle that aspect beyond text formatting. A diff or history-revision view goes beyond the context of the tool. Not my point. A Perl 6 wiki needs to explain how Perl 6 differs from Perl 5. Not with diff(1) output, obviously. So, in that regard, I don't believe that this is an issue. Pity. Juerd -- http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html http://convolution.nl/make_juerd_happy.html http://convolution.nl/gajigu_juerd_n.html
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Quoth [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Juerd): * Markdown does not have tables. * Textile does not have paragraphs in table cells. * Kwiki does not have paragraphs in table cells. Unless someone comes up with another way to do side-by-side layouts (extremely useful for showcasing differences between Perl 5 and Perl 6), all of these formats are not suitable. This may be a stupid suggestion, but would it not be possible to create some minimal set of extensions to pod which will do what we need? Preferably something duck rst-like? Ben -- If you put all the prophets, | You'd have so much more reason Mystics and saints | Than ever was born In one room together, | Out of all of the conflicts of time. [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Levellers, 'Believers'
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Thomas Wittek wrote: Good ideas. But maybe we should start a bit smaller ;) It might be a good idea to create a list of features separated in several increments (releases) to get a running system early. Absolutely. I could imagine increments like Parsing/Converting, Storage backend/Revision control, User management, ... Unfortunately you probably have to throw away/heavily modify earlier increments, if you add features like a flexible syntax, which will need a different internal infrastructure. Well, if object-oriented design has any advantage at all, here it is! If we design this sort of wiki from the very beginning in a way that you can just load a sort of storage backend, user management, rule engine (per heritage or plugin-wise) you can start off creating the simplest storage, a nearly nonexistent usermanagement and a very simple rule engine and just swap when you've got a better one in stock ;) Only you will have to define the abstract class or plugin bay from the first minute in the right way (the only was softly ironic). But targeting such a feature monster will probably take too much development time. I agree heavily. I only propose a flexible object-oriented or otherwise modular design that enables programmers to weld stuff onto it and plug other stuff into it and after transformation use it from outside as a module to do something with it that noone has foreseen... Ok, forget about the last bit, I'll be content with welding and plugging ;) Maybe a feature complete version could be targeted as the Perl6-Wiki-Software. But before this one a Lite Version, which will be used to have a wiki quickly available, could be developed. -Thomas Maybe, just to get started, we should use as many perl5-modules as we can and then substitute them one by one (thinking of CGI, YAML, DBI, HTML::Template, etc., etc.) Regards, Udo -- That which is not good for the bee-hive cannot be good for the bees.
OT: my wiki syntax is better than yours (was: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
* Ben Morrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-06-07 01:25]: Preferably something duck rst-like? I was wondering why noone had proposed Kwid yet. Doesn’t anyone like it? Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
I also agree that Object Oriented Design would work wonderfully well here. The key here is prototyping its shape and then filling in the details once it has taken this shape. I like the term 'messages' for methods because it reminds me that the objects must send requests, forms of communication, to the other objects. That's always struck me as a great visual help (I'm a visual learner). With that in mind, we could full-well begin the structuring of the project as it pertains to blocks of functionality: a component to handle visual rendering (whether it include Textile, Markdown, Wiki-whatever, or all three), data persistence layer (ORM, anybody?), etc. I'm sorry if I'm being obnoxiously obvious here, but I like to start things out simple and I think it would be a good step towards a product. For what it's worth, M.T.
Re: OT: my wiki syntax is better than yours (was: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
Juerd, My mistake: I misunderstood what you were saying (probably due to haste). But really, then, there are alternatives to using tables, such as DIVs, as well as simply modifying the parsing step to also parse for this special case in addition to Textile or what-have-you. I guess if I said anything worth-while in my last reply it is that I think Ps don't belong in TABLEs (and their children). Sorry for the confusion (on my part). M.T.
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Woah, we are getting really far away from talking about perl6 here... - ask
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
A. Pagaltzis schrieb: * Amir E. Aharoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-05-28 23:00]: The popularity of Wikipedia made Media-Wiki syntax the de-facto standard. It's not perfect, but please don't reinvent the wheel (even though it's a PHP wheel). [..] Noone other than Mediawiki uses the Mediawiki syntax. I posit that the reason is that that syntax blows chunks. I have to agree. 'bold and italic' is definitely not what I understand as an intuitive syntax. I did some work on designing an easy wiki syntax for a wiki plugin for my (yet another...)[1] webdev framework. I looked at the syntax of several wikis and tried to create an easy to write (and to parse) syntax: http://gedankenkonstrukt.de/konstrukt/syntax.html This actually has been implemented and works fine. It's not released yet and also not intended to be a base for a perl6-wiki. I'm just posting it to suggest a possible syntax. Interestingly it is very similar to Markdown although I never heard about it before :) Regards, -Thomas [1]: I believe everyone has to build one on its own ;)
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
* Thomas Wittek [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-06-03 22:30]: Interestingly it is very similar to Markdown although I never heard about it before :) Hmm, it doesn’t look similar at all to me? Not even superficially similar, but most importantly, it looks line-based. Markdown is block-based. If you want another example of block-based, take a look at the new-style PhpWiki markup. These let you do things like put a code block inside a blockquote within a list item, or heck, even things as simple as multi-paragraph list items. Mediawiki markup, like many other wiki syntaxes, can’t express that. Yours doesn’t look like it can either. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
A. Pagaltzis schrieb: * Thomas Wittek [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-06-03 22:30]: Interestingly it is very similar to Markdown although I never heard about it before :) Hmm, it doesn’t look similar at all to me? Headers (Markdown): # This is an H1 ## This is an H2 ## This is an H6 Headers (/me): = This is an H1 == This is an H2 == This is an H6 Lists (Markdown): * Red * Green * Blue Liste (/me): * Red * Green * Blue Code (Markdown): This is a normal paragraph: This is a code block. Code (/me): This is a normal paragraph: This is a code block. Horizontal Rules (Markdown): - Horizontal Rules (/me): - Emphasis (Markdown): e.g. *single asterisks* Emphasis (/me): *single asterisks* There are of course many cases where the syntax differs, but only I said that they are similar, not identical ;) Especially the linking differs from my syntax. Not even superficially similar, but most importantly, it looks line-based. Markdown is block-based. If you want another example of block-based, take a look at the new-style PhpWiki markup. These let you do things like put a code block inside a blockquote within a list item, or heck, even things as simple as multi-paragraph list items. Mediawiki markup, like many other wiki syntaxes, can’t express that. Yours doesn’t look like it can either. No, (currently) blocks cannot be nested. Blocks are separated by =1 newlines and consist of only one type of the ones listed in http://gedankenkonstrukt.de/konstrukt/syntax.html#BLOCK_SYNTAX. I only wanted to cover the most common formatting cases. It's far from being feature-complete and not intended to be a full-sized wiki-system. Bye, -Thomas
RE: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Does anyone out there have any phone numbers for key contacts at The Perl Foundation that you could send to me off-list? So far, I've not heard back from anyone there. TIA. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6 Wiki.) www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.) From: Conrad Schneiker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:35 PM From: Conrad Schneiker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:35 PM To: 'perl6-users@perl.org' Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; 'Nathan Eady'; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6 OK, Im sold on a Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6aka the (Perl 6) **2 Wiki. However, I want it now! So Im offering to post a $1,000 prize (The AthenaLab The 1st Extreme Leverage Prize for Perl 6), to be awarded to the person that delivers the first (Perl 6)**2 Wiki that meets some moderate specifications. Heres what I currently have in mind. The prize money would be held in escrow by The Perl Foundation (*IF* they are willing to handle this). The Perl Foundation would decide when a prize claimant had adequately realized the specifications. (Entries must be announced on perl.perl6.users. To facilitate collaboration, the designated winner may request that the prize be split up and distributed among up-to-10 cohorts or charities, with names and amounts to be publicly specified in advance on perl.perl6.users.) The specifications for the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki would be determined (and posted to perl.perl6.users) by @Larry (*IF* they are willing to handle this). One of the reasons for wanting @Larry to handle the specification for this prize is my presumption that they best know what is presently (or soon will be) reasonable to implement. Perl 6 means Pugs + Parrot for purposes of this prize. (However, if @Larry recommends s/Parrot/Perl5/ for now, thats also OK with me.) Practically usable minimalism and the ( http://www.perldesignpatterns.com/?TinyWiki) approach of starting with the simplest (working) thing possible is fine. The aim is not to impress with world with the first implementation, but rather to initiate a self-sustaining chain reaction of improvement that will much later (a year from now) impress the world with the cumulative rate of progress. The license must be whatever the prevailing license was for the Pugs (Perl 6 core) svn source tree is at the time the prize is claimed. The source code would be added to the examples or cookbook section of the Pugs source tree. (Details to be determined by @Larry.) The contestant (or contestants) are encouraged to seek help and feedback on public forums. Just be up-front about it. Taking the initiative needed to deliver the result is what is being rewarded, not doing it on your own. The (Perl 6)**2 Wiki must be installed and demonstrated on Feather, Juerds Perl 6 development server (*IF* this is OK with him, and if he can arrange for www.perl6.nl to go to the new Wiki, *UNLESS* the Perl Foundation wants to host the main Wiki, in which case Feather would still be used for further Wiki prototyping and development.). Well need a volunteer to serve as the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki sysadmin, once it comes online. If no one else steps forward, Id volunteer to serve as the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki moderator for any (hopefully very rare) cases of content issues. (Id prefer that the Perl Foundation or Perl Mongers took responsibility for these things, but I dont want to ask for too much at the outset. To minimize disputes and churning, I suspect the eventually-high-demand home page should be restricted to moderator-only updating.) Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam technology.)
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Hi Conrad, I run the grant committee for the Perl Foundation and I sit on the steering committee, so I suppose I can discuss your proposal (there are some other TPF folk here, too, so that's why this is a public email). Also, the following stuff is just off the top of my head and is in no way official. For TPF to handle something like this, we'd have to have some agreement on what the specs are, who would judge whether or not a Wiki met the specs and what to do if there were timing concerns (if we get one Wiki before another even the the later one was sent first, who wins?) Also, though I hate to be a spoilsport and bring this up, I'm really not sure what legal issues might be involved with running a contest, either. Would that be considered a form of gambling and possibly be illegal? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. In any event, if you can come up with a solid set of contest rules, TPF can consider whether or not we can officially run the contest. It sounds like a nice idea, I just don't know what's involved. Cheers, Ovid -- If this message is a response to a question on a mailing list, please send follow up questions to the list. Web Programming with Perl -- http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ - Original Message From: Conrad Schneiker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: perl6-users@perl.org Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2006 12:00:51 AM Subject: RE: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6 Does anyone out there have any phone numbers for key contacts at The Perl Foundation that you could send to me off-list? So far, I've not heard back from anyone there. TIA. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6 Wiki.) www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.) From: Conrad Schneiker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:35 PM From: Conrad Schneiker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:35 PM To: 'perl6-users@perl.org' Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; 'Nathan Eady'; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6 OK, Im sold on a Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6aka the (Perl 6) **2 Wiki. However, I want it now! So Im offering to post a $1,000 prize (The AthenaLab The 1st Extreme Leverage Prize for Perl 6), to be awarded to the person that delivers the first (Perl 6)**2 Wiki that meets some moderate specifications. Heres what I currently have in mind. The prize money would be held in escrow by The Perl Foundation (*IF* they are willing to handle this). The Perl Foundation would decide when a prize claimant had adequately realized the specifications. (Entries must be announced on perl.perl6.users. To facilitate collaboration, the designated winner may request that the prize be split up and distributed among up-to-10 cohorts or charities, with names and amounts to be publicly specified in advance on perl.perl6.users.) The specifications for the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki would be determined (and posted to perl.perl6.users) by @Larry (*IF* they are willing to handle this). One of the reasons for wanting @Larry to handle the specification for this prize is my presumption that they best know what is presently (or soon will be) reasonable to implement. Perl 6 means Pugs + Parrot for purposes of this prize. (However, if @Larry recommends s/Parrot/Perl5/ for now, thats also OK with me.) Practically usable minimalism and the ( http://www.perldesignpatterns.com/?TinyWiki) approach of starting with the simplest (working) thing possible is fine. The aim is not to impress with world with the first implementation, but rather to initiate a self-sustaining chain reaction of improvement that will much later (a year from now) impress the world with the cumulative rate of progress. The license must be whatever the prevailing license was for the Pugs (Perl 6 core) svn source tree is at the time the prize is claimed. The source code would be added to the examples or cookbook section of the Pugs source tree. (Details to be determined by @Larry.) The contestant (or contestants) are encouraged to seek help and feedback on public forums. Just be up-front about it. Taking the initiative needed to deliver the result is what is being rewarded, not doing it on your own. The (Perl 6)**2 Wiki must be installed and demonstrated on Feather, Juerds Perl 6 development server (*IF* this is OK with him, and if he can arrange for www.perl6.nl to go to the new Wiki, *UNLESS* the Perl Foundation wants to host the main Wiki, in which case Feather would still be used for further Wiki prototyping and development.). Well need a volunteer to serve as the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki sysadmin, once it comes online. If no one else steps forward, Id volunteer to serve as the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki moderator for any (hopefully very rare) cases of content issues. (Id prefer
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
On Jun 1, 2006, at 6:45, Ovid wrote: In any event, if you can come up with a solid set of contest rules, TPF can consider whether or not we can officially run the contest. It sounds like a nice idea, I just don't know what's involved. I wouldn't claim to entirely comprehend the rules, but I think there's something in the 501c rules about not taking money for specific purposes too. - ask -- http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Hi, Hi Conrad, I run the grant committee for the Perl Foundation and I sit on the steering committee, so I suppose I can discuss your proposal (there are some other TPF folk here, too, so that's why this is a public email). Also, the following stuff is just off the top of my head and is in no way official. For TPF to handle something like this, we'd have to have some agreement on what the specs are, who would judge whether or not a Wiki met the specs and what to do if there were timing concerns (if we get one Wiki before another even the the later one was sent first, who wins?) Oh my, this is getting complicated :) Also, though I hate to be a spoilsport and bring this up, I'm really not sure what legal issues might be involved with running a contest, either. Would that be considered a form of gambling and possibly be illegal? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Well, it cannot be gambling. IMHO something constitutes to gambling only if: - the outcome (who wins/loses) is mostly controlled by chance - you have to pay in order to participate Both should hold and none holds. However, there might be taxing issues... In any event, if you can come up with a solid set of contest rules, TPF can consider whether or not we can officially run the contest. It sounds like a nice idea, I just don't know what's involved. i_am_so_bad If I had some mone to spare for a contest like this, I would say: I have the money so I make the rules :) Some might not like that, but it makes things much less complicated. It's Conrad's money and his generous gesture. I would say let him decide who makes the specification and let him name the winner, according to the rules he comes up with. Those who will be unhappy with the result can always STFU, don't they? ;) /i_am_so_bad Of course if the community can make this happen is a nice and controlled way, that would be the best. I just like pragmatism :)) - Fagzal
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
How about something a little less mercenary - a 1000$ donation to the Perl Foundation/Perl 6 development in the winner's name from Athena Labs? Might take out some of the difficulty and, who knows, get you a better wiki (you know, the less immediately reward driven programmer or something ;-). That way the money stuff stays out of the the foundation's hair, so to speak. I imagine a donation of 1000$ could get you an autographed Camel or Aoudad or something ... a Andy Bach, Sys. Mangler Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] VOICE: (608) 261-5738 FAX 264-5932 Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. -- Dennis - Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Amir E. Aharoni skribis 2006-05-28 22:54 (+0200): It's funny - i was the first one who proposed the wiki idea and i didn't think that it will go so far (1000$$$). If you ask me, this wiki should be done ASAP in Media-Wiki. Reusing current Perl wikis (Australian, whatever) is even better. Perl6 currently needs documentation, community and advocacy - not a Yet Another Content Management System written in itself. It is unlikely that it will become Perl6's killer app with such a strong competition. I disagree, for reasons detailed in perl6-language. Juerd -- http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html http://convolution.nl/make_juerd_happy.html http://convolution.nl/gajigu_juerd_n.html
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Darren Duncan skribis 2006-05-28 14:37 (-0700): For one thing, I'm assuming that a prize-qualifying solution won't be able to link-in legacy Perl 5 modules using Pugs' use perl5:Foo syntax; to do so would look bad if we are wanting to show off a Wiki solution using the NEW technology. I'm assuming re-using code is okay, as long as it's pre-existing. It would be a good idea to create Perl 6 wrappers around them, so that once a Perl 6 implementation is good enough for doing it in Perl 6, code can be migrated easily. Therefore, if this Wiki is going to be made sooner rather than later, what are we going to use for a storage engine? Well, since storage needs support for revisions, I'm all for re-using open source industry standards like svk or svn. Initially, the command line tools can be wrapped around. Later, native support can be built. Juerd -- http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html http://convolution.nl/make_juerd_happy.html http://convolution.nl/gajigu_juerd_n.html
RE: P6U FAQ on PerlNet (was Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
From: Paul Fenwick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 7:28 PM [...] Sorry for the delay in responding. Spent much of the day fighting windoze insanity. If not for a certain other $commitment, I probably be shopping for a Mac about now. :-) Conrad Schneiker wrote: I certainly agree. However, someone has to take the initiative to actually start using (http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6), and to post links back here for others to follow up on. Will that person be you? :-) I'm all for using that wiki to compile important Perl 6 content now, so that there will be plenty of good material on hand for the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki. Working on that now. ;) Wonderful! I'm long on enthusiasm, but very low on tuits at the moment (hence the prize), but if someone ports the contents of (www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm) to the above wiki, I'll replace the above page with a Perl 6 Users FAQ has become absorbed by a much better Perl 6 wiki link. Page changed. Done! See http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ . It's still a little rough at the moment, I'm working on fixing the remaining bits of poor mark-up, and improving inter and intra-document linkage. However don't let that stop you (or any P6U members) from adjusting the FAQ as required. Fantastic. That's much more readable than the original. Thanks much! Am I correct that the P6U FAQ can also be multi-licensed under the CC-Attribution-ShareAlike license, as well as the prevailing P6/Pugs license? AFAIK. That's certainly fine with me in any case. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
On 27/05/06, Conrad Schneiker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I'm offering to post a $1,000 prize (The AthenaLab The 1st Extreme Leverage Prize for Perl 6), to be awarded to the person that delivers the first (Perl 6)**2 Wiki that meets some moderate specifications. Now would that be New Zealand Dollars or...? :-) I think this will certainly encourage activity but I hope it doesn't make things so competitive that us average folks won't have a chance to contribute to the work. I would love to help in whatever small ways I can. Hopefully everyone who wants to will be able to give something to the project. Is it too late to add a requirement that the solution be architected to allow for modular expansion? I mean that it can easily be added to with plug-ins (for example). That way even those who don't work on the core can still add expansion code. Also I'm volunteering now for whatever anyone needs -- I'll waive the money if that's gonna stop you from accepting my help. :) --michael
RE: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
From: Michael Mathews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 12:25 AM
[...]
On 27/05/06, Conrad Schneiker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So I'm offering to post a $1,000 prize (The AthenaLab The 1st Extreme
Leverage Prize for Perl 6), to be awarded to the person that delivers
the
first (Perl 6)**2 Wiki that meets some moderate specifications.
[...]
Now would that be New Zealand Dollars or...? :-)
USDs.
(Hmm. Maybe I should have checked exchange rates before answering.)
I think this will certainly encourage activity but I hope it doesn't
make things so competitive that us average folks won't have a chance
to contribute to the work.
If things do turn out to be *that* competitive, then it's likely that Perl 6
is seriously threatened by an imminent stampede of early-adapters, and is
probably inescapably doomed to an awesome future.
I would love to help in whatever small ways
I can. Hopefully everyone who wants to will be able to give something
to the project.
I sort of hope so too, which is partly why I encouraged the use of public
forums to get assistance. However, for some people, competition is -Ofun. If
they prevail in this endeavor, that's also OK with me.
I'm *very* much *more* interested in the *next* wave of collaborative
projects that the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki can more {readily, powerfully}
facilitate. I allude to some of these possibilities in
(www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm).) In case you weren't wondering
about it, Extreme Leverage in the name of the prize reflects this
perspective.
Is it too late to add a requirement that the
solution be architected to allow for modular expansion? I mean that
it can easily be added to with plug-ins (for example). That way even
those who don't work on the core can still add expansion code.
Good ideas, but I'll leave the specifications up to @Larry (or designated
proxies thereof).
Once something useful is running, there should be endless opportunities for
{refactoring, upgrading, generalizing, customizing}. As long as there are no
external Wiki features that somehow preclude a reasonable content-migration
path, then AFAIK, the internals of the first system could be pretty kludgy
without precluding fairly rapid evolution towards increasingly {elegant,
powerful} architectural best practices.
Also I'm volunteering now for whatever anyone needs -- I'll waive the
money if that's gonna stop you from accepting my help. :)
I like that attitude. Coincidentally, I'm waving the money too--as in waving
it goodbye. But if the Perl 6 Users FAQ is even half-right about the future
prospects of Perl 6, then this investment should have a wonderful long-term
ROI. Hopefully some other people will think and do likewise.
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm
www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Conrad Schneiker skribis 2006-05-27 14:34 (-0700): So I'm offering to post a $1,000 prize (The AthenaLab The 1st Extreme Leverage Prize for Perl 6), to be awarded to the person that delivers the first (Perl 6)**2 Wiki that meets some moderate specifications. Wow! Thanks for doing the world this favour. The specifications for the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki would be determined (and posted to perl.perl6.users) by @Larry (*IF* they are willing to handle this). I !~ @Larry, but I have some specs in mind that can perhaps inspire @Larry: - MediaWiki-compatible syntax - Most \W characters can be safely used - Package names (CamelCase) can be used without them being transformed into links - Revision support with web based diffs and rollback - Implement an svk frontend? - Page hit for a moderately sized page should take no longer than 5 seconds - Modularity is nice, but usability is more important - Current Perl 6 implementations are still rather slow - Use mod_pugs? - Must be packaged for CPAN And some non-spec thoughts: - Think about forward compatibility - Especially when it comes to syntax - Implement a tagging system (better than Categories) - Get someone with good design fu to design the graphical stuff - And use templates - Maybe just use the wikipedia layout - Many Perl people are bad at graphical design, without realising it. This wiki will be the first Perl 6 impression for many. - Make pages cacheable - Prepare for slashdot (not really... :)) - Perl 6 implementations are still slow - Support ; as well as in URIs The (Perl 6)**2 Wiki must be installed and demonstrated on Feather, Juerd's Perl 6 development server (*IF* this is OK with him, and if he can arrange for www.perl6.nl http://www.perl6.nl/ to go to the new Wiki, ...) Feather is of course available for this challenge. Contestants who don't currently have an account, can request one by sending me an email (not via the mailing list, please). Once the wiki is finished (when the $1000 have been awarded), perl6.nl, www.perl6.nl, is available to host the wiki. Cheers, Juerd -- http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html http://convolution.nl/make_juerd_happy.html http://convolution.nl/gajigu_juerd_n.html
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
* Juerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-05-28 19:35]: - MediaWiki-compatible syntax I hate the Mediawiki syntax. Can we have something that understands blocks, like Markdown? Just add [[foo]] as intrawiki link syntax. - Most \W characters can be safely used Yeah, that is true for Markdown. - Package names (CamelCase) can be used without them being transformed into links I find CamelCaseLinking annoying as well. However, I do like how it seems to gently guide people into picking NounsAsPageNames, whereas random contributors tend [[to make really stupid]] choices when given free-form links only. Good tools (page renaming etc.) can help steer against that, but CamelCaseLinking makes it less necessary to take corrective action in the first place. However, it’s also just plain damn ugly. :-/ Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Beep beep. I, for example, hate the verbosity of html, but i use it nevertheless. The popularity of Wikipedia made Media-Wiki syntax the de-facto standard. It's not perfect, but please don't reinvent the wheel (even though it's a PHP wheel). It's funny - i was the first one who proposed the wiki idea and i didn't think that it will go so far (1000$$$). If you ask me, this wiki should be done ASAP in Media-Wiki. Reusing current Perl wikis (Australian, whatever) is even better. Perl6 currently needs documentation, community and advocacy - not a Yet Another Content Management System written in itself. It is unlikely that it will become Perl6's killer app with such a strong competition. As for CamelCase - it's long dead. Now, writing a Perl6 app to find and exterminate [[random links]] would be neat (although it would probably be a one-liner). On 5/28/06, A. Pagaltzis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Juerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-05-28 19:35]: - MediaWiki-compatible syntax I hate the Mediawiki syntax. Can we have something that understands blocks, like Markdown? Just add [[foo]] as intrawiki link syntax. - Most \W characters can be safely used Yeah, that is true for Markdown. - Package names (CamelCase) can be used without them being transformed into links I find CamelCaseLinking annoying as well. However, I do like how it seems to gently guide people into picking NounsAsPageNames, whereas random contributors tend [[to make really stupid]] choices when given free-form links only. Good tools (page renaming etc.) can help steer against that, but CamelCaseLinking makes it less necessary to take corrective action in the first place. However, it's also just plain damn ugly. :-/ Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/ -- Amir Elisha Aharoni, http://aharoni.blogspot.com/ We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace. - Thurston Moore __ Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
* Amir E. Aharoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-05-28 23:00]: The popularity of Wikipedia made Media-Wiki syntax the de-facto standard. It's not perfect, but please don't reinvent the wheel (even though it's a PHP wheel). I plead not guilty. Markdown is nothing new, and it has half a dozen implementations in multiple languages already (the canonical one is written in Perl 5, btw). It is very popular in the weblog world, but because the implementations are not tied to a particular webapp, it gets used in many other contexts as well. I write all of my plaintext files in Markdown; which isn’t saying much, because the syntax very much looks just like email. Noone other than Mediawiki uses the Mediawiki syntax. I posit that the reason is that that syntax blows chunks. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
I'm wondering about some implementation logistics. For one thing, I'm assuming that a prize-qualifying solution won't be able to link-in legacy Perl 5 modules using Pugs' use perl5:Foo syntax; to do so would look bad if we are wanting to show off a Wiki solution using the NEW technology. Therefore, if this Wiki is going to be made sooner rather than later, what are we going to use for a storage engine? No Perl 6 RDBMS interface or implementation is ready yet, nor will it likely be for some time. Such is what larger scale Wikis use. So is this initial Wiki going to use a folder hierarchy of flat files, or a big YAML file, or something? This is fine for an initial version, of course, that is just showing things off, though it may be more difficult to scale. Perhaps v1 of the Wiki will use YAML or flat files, and v2 an RDBMS. Or is something more interesting on the horizon, like perhaps an RDF storage? -- Darren Duncan
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
* Darren Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-05-28 23:40]: For one thing, I'm assuming that a prize-qualifying solution won't be able to link-in legacy Perl 5 modules using Pugs' use perl5:Foo syntax; to do so would look bad if we are wanting to show off a Wiki solution using the NEW technology. I’d think it a fine technology demonstration to show how you can actually, *in practice*, write an application in a dynamic language that relies on libraries in another dynamic language, particularly when it lets you use a library for something for which none are (yet) available in your native language. “We had a working webapp in Perl 6 before anyone even ported a CGI parameter parser to it!” How’s *that* for R.A.D. No Perl 6 RDBMS interface or implementation is ready yet, nor will it likely be for some time. Use Parrot NCI to wrap SQLite? More cross-language library reuse… :-) I don’t know enough about the state of Pugs and Parrot to know if this is feasible yet, though. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
RE: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
From: Juerd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 3:55 AM [...] Conrad Schneiker skribis 2006-05-27 14:34 (-0700): So I'm offering to post a $1,000 prize (The AthenaLab The 1st Extreme Leverage Prize for Perl 6), to be awarded to the person that delivers the first (Perl 6)**2 Wiki that meets some moderate specifications. Wow! Thanks for doing the world this favour. And thank you for bringing the idea to my attention--repeatedly. It took a while for me to have a revelation of the obvious, and see the many potentially useful side-effects of such a pilot project. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Noone other than Mediawiki uses the Mediawiki syntax. I posit that the reason is that that syntax blows chunks. Actually dokuwiki uses an almost the exact same syntax as mediawiki.. except they invert the headers (== foo == stuff). as for a perl6 wiki.. I agree that there are already many many wiki's outthere the ones I like most noted above (media and doku), since I really like the syntax. but also both of them are written in php and as far as I've seen the code.. not particulary beautiful (ok dokuwiki is plain ugly but functional, mediawiki somewhat hard with major upgrades) and I dislike all perl wiki's I've seen. so IMHO there still is a market. on top of that.. some good clear visible code like with a wiki, would do the perl6 project good for news and momentum (and a php wiki would just look really bad i think). as for specs.. ofcourse I'm no [at]larry, but I'd like to see something that is lightweight and flexible in design. my 2ct, Sebastian S Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/ -- [URL: http://web.expr42.net/] [Unique ID: Sun May 28 23:23:17 CEST 2006 (36)]
RE: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
-Original Message-
From: Amir E. Aharoni [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 1:54 PM
[...]
It's funny - i was the first one who proposed the wiki idea and i
didn't think that it will go so far (1000$$$). If you ask me, this
wiki should be done ASAP in Media-Wiki. Reusing current Perl wikis
(Australian, whatever) is even better.
I certainly agree. However, someone has to take the initiative to actually
start using (http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6), and to post links back here
for others to follow up on. Will that person be you? :-) I'm all for using
that wiki to compile important Perl 6 content now, so that there will be
plenty of good material on hand for the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki.
I'm long on enthusiasm, but very low on tuits at the moment (hence the
prize), but if someone ports the contents of
(www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm) to the above wiki, I'll replace the
above page with a Perl 6 Users FAQ has become absorbed by a much better
Perl 6 wiki link.
Perl6 currently needs
documentation, community and advocacy - not a Yet Another Content
Management System written in itself.
I don't see these as mutually exclusive. Especially since other people
clearly regard such a prospective Perl 6 system as a powerful form of
advocacy, as an important piece of documentation for the Perl 6 Cookbook,
and as a community-building venture.
Also, it's really up to others who do the actual work to decide what they
find interesting or important enough to work on, given their interests and
motivation. It's not for me to dictate to others what they should or
shouldn't be doing. Perl 6 development has really taken off over the last
year or so in part because people were encouraged to pursue -Ofun, rather
than being told what they should be doing. Of all the crazy things, whoever
thought that what Perl 6 really needed was a pathetically primitive
prototype in some arcane language like Haskell? :-)
It is unlikely that it will
become Perl6's killer app with such a strong competition.
Near-to-medium term, you're almost certainly correct. The long term is a
different matter. But I think this is a tangential issue.
There are more important {near-to-medium term and non-competitive} roles
(pun intended) that the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki could play. (1) It can serve as a
wide-participation eat your own dog food prototype. (2) As new Perl 6
features become available, refactoring the prototype into a more pluggable
architecture (among other things) could provide many opportunities for
trying out new Perl 6 capabilities (including the use of production Perl 5
modules). (3) As the primary Perl 6 wiki, we have the option of adding
features that might be particularly useful for (say) generating Perl {user,
release, module, distribution, and so on} documentation without going
through the usual {POD editing, svn updating, HTML generating} processes,
resulting in {wider participation and greater productivity}, relative to
existing systems. (4) Eventually, this can serve as the nucleus of a
generalized Wiki-counterpart and analog of {CPAN, Perl Monks sorts of
forums, developer blogs, and so on}. Parts of it might eventually
incrementally morph into the first viable semantic web.
And again, the most important factor for many people is -Ofun. I've even
resigned myself to it. :-)
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm
www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
RE: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
From: Darren Duncan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 2:38 PM [...] For one thing, I'm assuming that a prize-qualifying solution won't be able to link-in legacy Perl 5 modules using Pugs' use perl5:Foo syntax; to do so would look bad if we are wanting to show off a Wiki solution using the NEW technology. That will be up to @Larry to decide. Non-trivial Perl 6 content seems obviously desirable, but it's not obvious to me what the reasonable criteria for that might be. (That's another reason for deferring specifications to wiser and better-informed people.) Using legacy Perl 5 modules is an important Perl 6 capability for a great many people, and it may actually be a very good thing to show off. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
P6U FAQ on PerlNet (was Re: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6)
G'day Conrad, Amir, and P6U, Conrad Schneiker wrote: I certainly agree. However, someone has to take the initiative to actually start using (http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6), and to post links back here for others to follow up on. Will that person be you? :-) I'm all for using that wiki to compile important Perl 6 content now, so that there will be plenty of good material on hand for the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki. Working on that now. ;) I'm long on enthusiasm, but very low on tuits at the moment (hence the prize), but if someone ports the contents of (www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm) to the above wiki, I'll replace the above page with a Perl 6 Users FAQ has become absorbed by a much better Perl 6 wiki link. Done! See http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ . It's still a little rough at the moment, I'm working on fixing the remaining bits of poor mark-up, and improving inter and intra-document linkage. However don't let that stop you (or any P6U members) from adjusting the FAQ as required. Am I correct that the P6U FAQ can also be multi-licensed under the CC-Attribution-ShareAlike license, as well as the prevailing P6/Pugs license? Cheerio, Paul -- Paul Fenwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://perltraining.com.au/ Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 Perl Training Australia| Fax: +61 3 9354 2681
$1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
OK, I'm sold on a Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6-aka the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki. However, I want it now! So I'm offering to post a $1,000 prize (The AthenaLab The 1st Extreme Leverage Prize for Perl 6), to be awarded to the person that delivers the first (Perl 6)**2 Wiki that meets some moderate specifications. Here's what I currently have in mind. The prize money would be held in escrow by The Perl Foundation (*IF* they are willing to handle this). The Perl Foundation would decide when a prize claimant had adequately realized the specifications. (Entries must be announced on perl.perl6.users. To facilitate collaboration, the designated winner may request that the prize be split up and distributed among up-to-10 cohorts or charities, with names and amounts to be publicly specified in advance on perl.perl6.users.) The specifications for the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki would be determined (and posted to perl.perl6.users) by @Larry (*IF* they are willing to handle this). One of the reasons for wanting @Larry to handle the specification for this prize is my presumption that they best know what is presently (or soon will be) reasonable to implement. Perl 6 means Pugs + Parrot for purposes of this prize. (However, if @Larry recommends s/Parrot/Perl5/ for now, that's also OK with me.) Practically usable minimalism and the (http://www.perldesignpatterns.com/?TinyWiki) approach of starting with the simplest (working) thing possible is fine. The aim is not to impress with world with the first implementation, but rather to initiate a self-sustaining chain reaction of improvement that will much later (a year from now) impress the world with the cumulative rate of progress. The license must be whatever the prevailing license was for the Pugs (Perl 6 core) svn source tree is at the time the prize is claimed. The source code would be added to the examples or cookbook section of the Pugs source tree. (Details to be determined by @Larry.) The contestant (or contestants) are encouraged to seek help and feedback on public forums. Just be up-front about it. Taking the initiative needed to deliver the result is what is being rewarded, not doing it on your own. The (Perl 6)**2 Wiki must be installed and demonstrated on Feather, Juerd's Perl 6 development server (*IF* this is OK with him, and if he can arrange for www.perl6.nl http://www.perl6.nl/ to go to the new Wiki, *UNLESS* the Perl Foundation wants to host the main Wiki, in which case Feather would still be used for further Wiki prototyping and development.). We'll need a volunteer to serve as the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki sysadmin, once it comes online. If no one else steps forward, I'd volunteer to serve as the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki moderator for any (hopefully very rare) cases of content issues. (I'd prefer that the Perl Foundation or Perl Mongers took responsibility for these things, but I don't want to ask for too much at the outset. To minimize disputes and churning, I suspect the eventually-high-demand home page should be restricted to moderator-only updating.) Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.athenalab.com/ http://www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm www. http://www.AthenaLab.com AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam technology.)
RE: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
Oops, I somehow overlooked including this intriguing item from an earlier post: From: Ovid [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On a related note, if anyone does want to build a P6 Wiki, you might consider building it on top of WWW::Kontent (http://search.cpan.org/dist/WWW-Kontent/), a Perl6 CMS (Content Management System) that BrentDax wrote. The only issue might be compatibility with whatever license Pugs is currently using. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam technology.)
