Re: what can I do with perl 6 today ?
On Tue, 2008-01-07 at 19:44 +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote: > That's why I created the > http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?what_can_i_do_with_perl_6_today > page on the wiki at the very end (December 29th) of 2007. http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?fibonacci_sequence Originally designed as an exercise in addition for students, the Fibonacci Sequence has some really interesting mathematical properties This statement looks made up to me (if I had a login, i'd fix it ...). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_Abaci -- --gh
Re: what can I do with perl 6 today ?
On Wed, 2008-02-07 at 11:53 +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote: > > See: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_Abaci > > Can't remember where I (or possibly) someone else got that from. I suspect it is a quote from some professor's course notes. It is not an unreasonable inference but any good mathematician should be familiar with at least some of the the first wikipedia page. I looked at the second page because I thought it might validate the statement on the perl6 wiki but it really doesn't. > > You (or anyone else) can use openid, or get a socialtext account > trivially - failing that I know. > reply to this thread with copy for a better page Sorry, I really don't have time. I would just add the wikipedia reference to the page and delete the offending statement. It could be replaced with note on Fibonacci, Liber Abaci, the date when Fib. was active and a reference to the Hindu origins (which I was unaware of and found really interesting ... so thanks [to whoever is responsible] for the original statement or I wouldn't have looked ;-). -- --gh
Re: Fwd: [november] Re: arrays and arrays ref question
On Thu, 2008-30-10 at 17:25 +0100, Carl Mäsak wrote:
> > for @($ar) { ... }
>
> This would arguably be the nicest variant.
for ( @$ar ) { ... }
?
--
--gh
Re: Fwd: [november] Re: arrays and arrays ref question
On Fri, 2008-31-10 at 11:31 +0100, Carl Mäsak wrote:
> >> > for @$ar { ... }
> >> > or even
> >> > for @ $ar { ... }
> >> > or
> >> > for @($ar) { ... }
>
> Guy (>):
> > for ( @$ar ) { ... }
> >
> > ?
>
> That's Moritz' first suggestion, but with a pair of unnecessary
> parentheses thrown in. :)
Ah ... silly me, stuck on perl5 ... thanks for the correction. I shall
go back to watching and learning.
--
--gh
Re: Perl as a better web language ?
On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 12:55 +0800, howard chen wrote: > Wouldn't it be great to see if Perl6 support it? Not necessarily. PHP does a lot more than provide a template language. I wouldn't touch perl6 if it went in that direction. Perl6 lets you define your own grammar, perhaps that would do what you want. -- --gh
Re: Perl as a better web language ?
On Sat, 2008-13-12 at 01:01 +0800, howard chen wrote: > But better have a single, standard, and out-of-the-box solution. That's python, not perl. -- --gh
Re: A Logo design for Rakudo Perl 6
On Fri, 2009-16-01 at 09:16 -0600, Patrick R. Michaud wrote: > I agree fully about the need for a visual representation; as far as > the name goes I'm hoping that people will think of "Rakudo Perl" in > a manner to the way that we currently think of "Strawberry Perl" or > "Vanilla Perl". Huh?! ;) AFAIK. Strawberry Perl is a binary distribution of perl5 for windows. I thought "Rakudo Perl 6" was ( equivalent to "perl5" in the sentence above ) either "going to become perl6" or "already perl6". Is that the case, or is there not going to be a(n official) "perl6" or are there going to be many "perl6"s ? Yes, I know there is pugs but I thought that was a prototype. -- --gh
Re: A Logo design for Rakudo Perl 6
On Fri, 2009-16-01 at 07:53 -0800, jerry gay wrote: > > Yes, I know there is pugs but I thought that was a prototype. > > > from http://perlcabal.org/syn/S01.html#Project_Plan: Thanks (also R Dice). I probably saw that but memory dulls with age. -- --gh
Re: Announcing Form
On Mon, 2009-16-03 at 14:34 +0100, Carl Mäsak wrote: > Form is still in its early stages, but is already showing great > promise. Consider downloading it and trying it out, or even > contributing. Very cool. This gives me a reason to play with Rakudo. What about starting from Build.PL rather than Makefile.PL (even if it starts as a make-wrapper) ? -- --gh
List Abuse
My last post resulted in a request to whitelist my email address with some russian web page. Please unsubscribe this person from the list. With the respect, I hope for the understanding Alexey Grebenschikov di...@mail.ua Since I DO NOT understand his web page: http://www.dimid.mail.ua -- --gh
Re: Announcing Form
On Mon, 2009-16-03 at 14:00 +, Matthew Walton wrote: > > What about starting from Build.PL rather than Makefile.PL (even if > it > > starts as a make-wrapper) ? > > It might make more sense. I think the question of best practice for Perl 6 > libraries is still being determined. At the moment the intention is just to Best practice for Perl 5 is TMTOWTDI, which is fairly frustrating. I see: Module::Build Module::Install ExtUtils::MakeMaker Module::Install is really clever but no-one seems to be using it. So I chose Build.PL. Module::Build can be induced to auto-create a Makefile.PL (although I've managed to break that ;-), which Debian perl-policy seems to require. So IMNAAHO*, Build.PL is the way to go. * NAA = not at all > make sure it can be used either directly or using proto, so it's got the > kind of build system that proto expects. I guess this kind of thing is one > of the things that'll come out of talking about how CPAN6 will work. Doing is a good way to make a statement and git gives you all the flexibility you should need. -- --gh
Re: Rakduo Logo Proposal
On Wed, 2009-18-03 at 10:37 +, Smylers wrote: > Stephen Weeks writes: > > > http://pleasedieinafire.net/~tene/logo/gimelanarchy.html > > > > The main association for me, with the reference to the anarchist > > symbol, is that we've kept going and produced something good despite > > the large sentiment of "You're taking too long, you'll never succeed, > > etc." out there. Others include the somewhat chaotic state of Perl 6 > > development at times, the loose and informal organization in Perl 6 > > development, etc. > > I see what you're getting at there, but obviously if chosen the logo > would be seen by people who're unaware of your explanation of the > analogy, and so there's a risk they'd see a more literal link with a > particular political movement. > > That could cause some awkwardness in getting Perl 6 accepted by those > with different political persuasions. Perl 6 has no political views I thought it was a peace sign until I checked the wiki link below. Serif gimel looks like a lambda to me ... one of the script versions would be better. I don't like the logo itself ... too messy. However, I have no problem with the idea[*] and I don't think a well-designed logo should cause political problems. Licensing does the trick nicely there. [*] Except that a gimel in a circle is not really distinctive enough. > (well, outside the narrow field of programming language design, which > isn't considered a field of politics by most major parties), so it > wouldn't be beneficial to give the perception of any poliical links, > even inadvertently. > > Smylers > > > > > Just an idea. Please discuss. > > > > [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimel#Hebrew_Gimel > > [2]: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2009/01/msg938.html > > [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_symbolism > -- Guy Hulbert gwhulb...@eol.ca (preferred) work: (416) 391-2051 (no voicemail) cell: (416) 738-6257 (voicemail)
Re: YALI (yet another logo idea)
On Tue, 2009-24-03 at 14:17 +, Ross Kendall wrote: > I was thinking that a logo doesn't really need to incorporate a symbol > (e.g. camel, onion etc.), and that one of the more important aspects of > a logo is the typography. > > Rather than ramble on with ideas, I decided to make something to look at: > > http://www.rakudo.org/some-rakudo-logo-ideas I like 4. > > Also, I really think the services of a professional designer are > needed. Is there any possibility of some funds being allocated to hire > one? (Who did the Parrot logo?) > I had to look for the parrot logo http://www.parrot.org/ Perhaps you could append a parrot logo the same height as the tree to your logo version 4 ? ... and the perl6 symbol would be the tree ? -- --gh
Re: Logo considerations
On Tue, 2009-24-03 at 08:42 -0700, Paul Hodges wrote: > --- On Tue, 3/24/09, John Macdonald wrote: > > > The graphene logo inspires me to suggest that a carbon > > ring be used as the logo for Parrot... Did you mean Rakudo here ? Parrot seems to have a logo already. > > A carbon ring also has the advantages that it's regognizable as a very > small logo, even as just a favicon.ico, and can be reasonably if > stylistically represented in simple ASCII art. You can even put a tail > off the top to look like 6-ish, or if you have real art skills, > superimpose a Pearl into the hexagon with a little "VI" (both a Roman > numeral and a vague homage to the text editor of it's UNIX roots). > > Yes, lots of inside jokes, but that's part of the community thing -- --gh
Re: Logo considerations
On Tue, 2009-24-03 at 09:16 -0700, Larry Wall wrote: > http://www.wall.org/~larry/camelia.pdf It's nice but I don't get it. google: camelia http://camelia.sourceforge.net/ http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/plants/camelia/ http://www.hotelcamelia.com/ http://akira.ruc.dk/~camelia/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelia_Potec ok ... i'm still not getting it ... google: camelia butterfly still flowers http://www.flickr.com/photos/lordv/with/3362403260/ spelled with two ls ... must be bactrian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia -- --gh
Re: Logo considerations
On Tue, 2009-24-03 at 10:24 -0700, Larry Wall wrote: > Not picking on you in particular, but I think there's a tendency to > go way too abstract in most of these proposals. I want something [snip] > In addition, you can extend just about anything by attaching "P6" > wings to it. I also take it as a given that we want to discourage > misogyny in our community. You of the masculine persuasion should I was unaware of mysogyny in the perl community. I'm sorry to hear about it. > consider it an opportunity to show off your sensitive side. :) > > Hence, Camelia. So "P6" wings on a parrot would do for rakudo then. -- --gh
Re: Logo considerations
On Tue, 2009-24-03 at 10:37 -0700, Larry Wall wrote: > Oh, I forgot to mention that Camelia's larval form was a dromedary, well that might have given us a clue > and she's actually got a wingspan of about 3 meters. You really > don't want to get her mad. (It is rumored that she has a very > small hump, but if so, she shows it only to her close friends.) is there a six tape ? > She was genetically engineered while metamorphizing and can change > the colors of her wings to match or contrast with her surroundings, > depending on whether she wants to hide or be noticed. > > Camelia is terrifically excited to be considered for the Perl 6 > mascot. :) the P6 parrot is appropriately intimidated and withdraws its candidacy ... > > Larry -- --gh
RE: Logo considerations
On Tue, 2009-24-03 at 11:38 -0700, Conrad Schneiker wrote: > Here's my latest suggestion: > > http://www.athenalab.com/Rakudo_logo_2.htm > > It combines Damian Conway's suggestions (please see below) > and Ross Kendall's suggestions at > (http://www.rakudo.org/some-rakudo-logo-ideas). > > For a smaller sized Rakudo logo, > just remove the text between the proposed Perl 6 logo > and the Parrot logo. For the small logo, you could super-impose the Parrot on top of the molecule ... and for pugs: http://www.bnpositive.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/starwars-pugs.jpg or you could select something more tasteful from: http://images.google.com/images?q=pug&oe=utf-8&rls=org.debian:en-US:unofficial&client=iceweasel-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi > > The proposed Perl 6 logo is a coronene molecule > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronene). > -- --gh
Re: Logo considerations
On Tue, 2009-24-03 at 21:10 +0100, James Fuller wrote: > creating a logo by committee is probably the worst way to design such > things ... perl6 logo will be seen in the context of other more > professionally designed logos and like it or not using the basics of I hate the java stuff (professional). I don't think much of the debian stuff either (amateur). Some of the things suggested here have been pretty good. [snip] > Is there any sponsorship money to spend on a very good graphic > designer to create something based on a small list of requirements as > to what meaning it should convey ? How was the parrot logo created ?? I saw a suggestion here that it is professionally designed but that wasn't confirmed. It looks good enough to me regardless. I don't see a problem with a long list ... > > Of course the logo should represent the community fundamentally, but I > find all of the suggestions little to do with addressing needs of a > logo versus needs of what I would call more of a 'club' badge. ... I see the suggestions here as necessary input. > > I mention these concerns because I would like perl6 to be adopted to > as wide a developer audience as possible. I don't think the logo will make much difference. I don't particularly care much about *what* the logo is or *how* it is created. I've only been offering comments as feedback to the people who are actually working on it. Beauty is better than not. > > my 2p, Jim Fuller > [snip] -- --gh
Re: Logo considerations
On Wed, 2009-25-03 at 10:45 +1100, Timothy S. Nelson wrote: > In response to those asking for a professional designer, I'd like to > see us go around a few more times here, and see if we can't come up with at > least a good concept that could hopefully be used/stylised by a real graphic > designer, so that we might end up with something like the Parrot logo. +1 (and most of the rest too) > > Now that Larry's provided some criteria, let round 2 of the design > process begin! I think this originally came up a few weeks ago ... seems more like round 3 to me ;-) -- --gh
Re: Logo considerations - 3 logos needed
Not speaking for Larry but ... On Wed, 2009-25-03 at 22:45 +1100, Timothy S. Nelson wrote: > My understanding was that Rakudo only runs on top of Parrot. Either > way, I don't see why we need a logo for Parrot + Rakudo, any more than we need I think it's a logo for Rakudo = Parrot + Perl6. One set of ideas is: 6 Rakudo P where: A) 'Rakudo' is an elegent, textual representation of "rakudo" (6 on P) B) 6 is the perl6 logo -- larry's camelia butterfly, a palm tree, benzene, camelia flower ... C) P is the existing parrot logo Let's look at what might be done with those (not to exclude any other ideas, of course). The textual part (A) would probably used standalone. The other two parts are already appropriate for that. Further more any of (depending on the design): D) 6P E) P super-imposed on top of 6 F) P speaking 6 might be used as mini logos. > > separate logos for Perl on Linux and Perl on Windows. > > Or, to look at it a different way, I thought the definition of Rakudo > *is* that it's "Perl 6 on Parrot". > > Additionally, while you recommended Camelia for Rakudo, my > understanding was that Larry was recommending it for Perl 6 rather than > Rakudo. I think he was offering it as an example and a suggestion. The perl6 community might favor it out of respect for Larry but I think he went out of his way to make it clear that it's the kind of thing he would like. The mini-logo ideas E and F would not work well with the Camelia butterfly but I don't think that's an important consideration. These things tend to take on a life of their own after they are finally designed. -- --gh
Re: Logo considerations - 3 logos needed
On Wed, 2009-25-03 at 09:59 -0500, Patrick R. Michaud wrote: > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:36:56AM -0400, Mark J. Reed wrote: > > Rakudo is a particular implementation of Perl 6 using Parrot. While > > it is a separate project from both Perl 6 and Parrot, it is intimately > > tied to both, and I think its logo should reflect that. I don't see > > much point in having separate logos for "Rakudo on Parrot" and "Rakudo > > without Parrot". I mean, I suppose much of the frontend work could be > > ported to a different backend, but would that still be considered > > Rakudo? > > I don't know that I consider Rakudo Perl to be forever tied to Parrot. > If we come up with other backends, I'd still consider the result > "Rakudo"; similar to how "Pugs" referred to all of the various backends > available to it and not just the Haskell backend. that's very interesting > > So from that perspective, I don't know that the Rakudo logo ought > to be strongly tied to Parrot, any more than we tie the Parrot logo > to the various GNU tools used to build it. still looks like: 6 Rakudo P will work for the interim as long as Rakudo is separable > > Pm -- --gh
Re: Logo considerations - 3 logos needed
On Wed, 2009-25-03 at 09:39 -0700, Larry Wall wrote: > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 08:54:34AM -0400, Guy Hulbert wrote: > : On Wed, 2009-25-03 at 22:45 +1100, Timothy S. Nelson wrote: > : > Additionally, while you recommended Camelia for Rakudo, my > : > understanding was that Larry was recommending it for Perl 6 rather than > : > Rakudo. > > This is correct. Patrick has the final say on Rakudo's logo. Here is something then: http://p6.hpfamily.net/rakudo-0.png Shamelessly gimped up from: http://www.athenalab.com/Rakudo_logo_2.htm and from Larry's camelia image. [snip] > So let me summarize the requirements into a meta-requirement: > > The new logo must make Larry at least as happy as Camelia does. If anyone likes this and Larry is happy, I have some in-house artists with gimp skills far superior to my own who might be persuaded to work on it tonight. > > That is the extent to which my mind is still open... :-) > > Larry -- --gh
Re: Logo considerations - 3 logos needed
On Wed, 2009-25-03 at 18:06 -0700, Larry Wall wrote: > : Here is something then: > : http://p6.hpfamily.net/rakudo-0.png > > I like Camelia at that size, though the left-right balance is off in a > couple ways. i was informed of that but so far this is just rescaling and cut-and-paste > > : > So let me summarize the requirements into a meta-requirement: > : > > : > The new logo must make Larry at least as happy as Camelia > does. > : > : If anyone likes this and Larry is happy, I have some in-house > artists > : with gimp skills far superior to my own who might be persuaded to > work > : on it tonight. mid-terms ... will have to put this off for a few days > > Well, I don't have to be persuaded, and I'm my own in-house artist > (well, I have Geneva too, who's just as good at that as I am--okay, > maybe she's better--and I also bummed a certain amount of gimp advice > from Lewis). So anyway, I thought I'd take a crack at a 16x16 > Camelia. > I think this does tolerable fair as a favicon: > > http://www.wall.org/~larry/cameliafav.ico > > To be honest, I thought I'd have to simplify her a lot more than > turned > out to be necessary. Hand-crafted anti-aliasing is your friend. :) -- --gh
Re: Perl 6 IDEs
On Tue, 2009-08-12 at 20:45 -0300, Víctor A. Rodríguez (Bit-Man) wrote: > > $ ./perl-5.10.1-xl-0.01/perl/bin/padre.sh > > > > notice one needs to run the shell file! > > It worked like a charm, just download, untar an run. Debian etch is on gcc 2.3 so not for me. I'll try lenny when I get some tuits. However, I'm a hard-core emacs user ... > > > please check it out and let me know what distribution and what > version > > have you tried and -- --gh
Re: Rakudo Perl & database access
On Tue, 2009-15-12 at 14:27 +0100, Carl Mäsak wrote: [snip] Carl. Thanks for posting the very useful (and entertaining) links. > By the way, try the #perl6 channel on freenode, if you haven't > already. It's very friendly. [ lurking here and no tuits ] [snip] > The two projects I know of that might be worth knowing about are proto > and Plumage. The former knows about virtually all Perl 6 projects out [snip] > If you find it's not enough for your needs, please let us know. This: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ModuleEcosystem works better for me as starting point for plumage. > > // Carl -- --gh
Re: Severe performance loss, comparing with perl 5
On Sun, 2010-13-06 at 06:03 +, Xi Yang wrote: > I'm trying to use use Perl 6 to process some nucleotide sequences. > However, I found it strangely slow on substr or string concat > operations, compared with its Perl 5 equivalent. I don't think that's unexpected at this stage of development. Other benchmarks (at least one ;-) have been posted to this list, showing the same result. -- --gh
Re: Perl6 Modules - Documentation
On Fri, 2010-30-07 at 16:08 +0400, Richard Hainsworth wrote: > All I am suggesting is that the directories containing modules also > contain a METADATA file with some standard items, and that this > metadata > is required for a module that is registered. Even if there is a CPAN > system, the metadata would still be needed, so there is no extra work > for developers. I'd like a better cpan ... i don't know exactly what that is but ... 1. I tend to discover good modules by accident. 2. I don't like huge lists of dependencies. 3. I found that the 'cpan' command caches index files which are easy to search with 'grep' -- at least for module names So it would nice if the METADATA format were incrementally downloadable. It might be nice if CPAN were segmented so partial mirrors were useful as long as the METADATA is complete on each mirror. A peer-to-peer network would be interesting ... As everyone is using github now perhaps using git as the storage format would be better than tar ... -- --gh
Re: Perl6 Modules - Documentation
On Fri, 2010-30-07 at 11:07 -0700, Darren Duncan wrote: > I *really* want to use a multi-language-savvy spec like this to > distribute with. CPAN will also have to be able to handle modules written in arbitrary natural languages (chinese, arabic etc) will it not ? -- --gh
Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 10:27 -0600, Patrick R. Michaud wrote: > - What was the first production release of Linux? > - At what point was each of the above declared a "production > release"; > was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards? Linus declared what his goals for 1.0 were and started a 0.9x series. I think the transition was something like 0.12 -> 0.95 but when I started using linux it was about 0.99c or so. I started in December and the 1.0 was some time the following summer. I think the 0.95 (or whatever) was about August/September. Debian's first public release was something like 0.94rc6 but their version numbers now look like: 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, 5.1 ... I think freezing a subset of what you eventually want to have and then getting as close as you can on a fairly tight schedule is the best way to get buy-in from users. Debian has a pretty good way to do this. Except for release-critical bugs, I think they eventually just push all the rest into the next release aobut a week before they publish the final product. I know that this description is imprecise but you can see it what they really do in their bug graphs. -- --gh
Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 18:25 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote: > At least have the decency to change the e-mail subject when the > discussion's > subject has changed! IMO, the subject changed at the second post. I was just responding to P Michaud who is the current principal developer of the s/w being discussed. -- --gh
Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 18:45 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote: > You guys stopped discussing the questionnaire a LONG time before PM > answered. There has hardly been a handful of helpful posts. That's what I said and that was my first post. > > > Getting back on topic, I, for one, would like to know how many people > have heard about Perl 6, and to what extent. I would like to know > whether they use it or not, and to what extent (already covered in > some of the suggestions), and I would like to know whether people like > what they see or not, and to which extent. Many people seem to be proposing questions which ask people's opinions of things which are factual and can be answered readily by reading the documentation. For example, your question can be partly answered by looking at the rakudo download page. There were about 3000 downloads of the July release (I was one) and since then there have been less than 1000 (not me) per month. Personally, I have decided to finally make a commitment to writing a perl6 app. This is not entirely due to the state of rakudo. The biggest influence on my decision was the posting of the example of a class which implements a rolled dice. I've been interested in parrot and perl6 ever since they were announced but I don't have a lot of time or expertise to contribute. So I subscribed to this mailing list when I was finally convinced that perl6 was going to really happen. -- --gh
Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 20:10 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote: > It does not, however, answer any of the question_s_ I wanted asked, and > which others have wanted asked, not even partially. I haven't seen any such requests from you on this thread. Is this discussion happening elsewhere as well ? > [snip] > But with careful phrasing - something I've been sloppy with in this thread, > I'm sorry to say - then you can (probably) get the information you want. It seems to me "the information you want" is up to Gabor, who started this thread. I'm looking back at his posts: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2010/12/msg1366.html == I am preparing a survey of the Perl Ecosystem which will take the TPF survey and extend it. == I'm not sure what 'TPF survey' is. Gabor has a URL: http://perl-ecosystem.org/ in his original post, which was omitted from his follow-ups. There are 3 more ideas here: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2010/12/msg1369.html The question of an official release arose here: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2011/01/msg1388.html Apart from the 'TPF survey'. The main thrust seems to be: a) How to get people to use perl6. b) How to get people to help develop it. Seems to be a chicken and egg problem. I am about to start on (a) and if I get anywhere, I will try to work on (b). So (a) seems to be more important. I'm going to shut-up and look at the 'ecosystem' link now and perhaps see if I can figure out what 'TPF survey' means. BTW, one other thing that interested me is that padre supports perl6 and can be got running on windows fairly easily now. My IDE is 'emacs' but that does not help much with perl on windows ... so padre might be a boost to perl6 adoption, if we believe that an important target for perl6 is perl5 developers. Yes, I know that Gabor is responsible for padre so tia. -- --gh
Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 22:30 +0200, Gabor Szabo wrote: > >> Thanks. Found that already. It does not list the questions asked and I > >> can't figure out how to download the PDF report or to clone the > >> repository it's in on github. Jan Involdstadt suggested I look at TPF website and following the link to the 2009 survey, I figured out how to get the git url (they've changed the interface since I was last there). git clone git://github.com/singingfish/Data-PerlSurvey-2010.git and less Data-PerlSurvey-2010/data/all_data.csv perldoc Data-PerlSurvey-2010/lib/Data/PerlSurvey/2010.pm gives you most of what you need. -- --gh
Re: Production Release - was Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 19:05 +0300, Richard Hainsworth wrote: > It seems you may have concluded something not intended. I was unsurprised at the reaction to your post. [snip] > I think the issue of a version number is irrelevant, given the vested Clearly you were wrong. [snip] > For my part, I already use Rakudo for nearly all my programming needs - > not that they are particularly burdensome or mission critical. The > elegance of the language in itself is a powerful reason to use it. I am > willing to deal with and work around the problems. I have decided to adopt it for one project. If that is successful, I will switch from 5 to 6. If not, I'll have to consider python or ruby for the next one. > > Even in this thread higher standards have been alluded to. But what are > they? How specifically can they be quantified? > > Speed, memory, ease of use? [snip] The fact that Rakudo comes with: a) a warning that it is slow b) a list of things which are *not* implemented Is a red flag. Similarly, Moose has warnings about start-up time so I don't use it as most of my perl is command-line scripts. I think it would be useful to freeze rakudo1 as soon as possible but it would be helpful to have some benchmarks so we know *how* slow. I started using perl4 after perl5 was already in use. I stuck with perl4 until I got interested in OO. Rakudo is not listed here: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ Fixing that is something I'd like to help with. Note that go was listed *before* it was announced. That tells me that the go authors are, in some small way, more serious about their project "succeeding" than perl6. -- --gh
Re: Production Release - was Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 18:02 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote: > On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 17:30, Guy Hulbert wrote: > > > Rakudo is not listed here: > > http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ > > Fixing that is something I'd like to help with. > > > > Note that go was listed *before* it was announced. That tells me that > > the go authors are, in some small way, more serious about their project > > "succeeding" than perl6. > > > > So your suggestion to Gabor is to add the question: No. The subject changed ... > > Do you think that NOT listing Rakudo at shootout.alioth.debian.org means > Rakudo is not a serious project? > > Or did you have some other point? Marketing. > > (This is the first time I've seen shootout.alioth.debian.org, I won't claim > that it's not a serious shootout just because of that, BTW.) When go was announced a link to 'shootout' was in the announcement. I think I might have seen if before that but, if so, i'd forgotten so it was new to me at the time. What got me interested in perl6 was the april fools announcement about parrot ostensibly by Larry and Guido. Something like 10 years ago. I don't learn new programming languages unless I have something to do with it. I've been looking at what it would take to implement perl6/rakudo versions of the programs on 'shootout', and I think I can do it so I will try to get one or two of them running properly in the benchmarker. The benchmarking program can be downloaded (which I've done) and comes bundled with 2 or 3 python programs, one of which requires python 2.5 and I'm still on python 2.4 (don't ask). However I've figured out how to see the source for example programs, so I'll manually download all the perl5 and C ones and try to get the benchmarker going for those. It'll take me a little while ... -- --gh
Re: Production Release - was Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 10:24 -0700, Wendell Hatcher wrote: > I have to agree I don't think this is a serious project. In-fact at > this point it seems like a bunch of friends working on a hobby in > their basement. I'm not sure I said anything to agree with. You seem to misinterpret my intention. [snip] > >> Do you think that NOT listing Rakudo at shootout.alioth.debian.org means > >> Rakudo is not a serious project? > >> > >> Or did you have some other point? > > > > Marketing. What I meant was that a "serious project" pays attention to marketing. The perl6 marketing effort is limited by resources more than go is. [snip] > > The benchmarking program can be downloaded (which I've done) and comes > > bundled with 2 or 3 python programs, one of which requires python 2.5 > > and I'm still on python 2.4 (don't ask). However I've figured out how > > to see the source for example programs, so I'll manually download all > > the perl5 and C ones and try to get the benchmarker going for those. Here's what I will attempt to reproduce: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=perl&lang2=gcc I will start by downloading each program in C and perl (there seem to be several C versions -- and sometimes several perl versions available) and just running them appropriately. > > > > It'll take me a little while ... I'm fairly busy. I'll report _any_ progress back to the list ... if you don't hear from me by February 1st feel free to nag me. By 'progress', I mean something on github. -- --gh
Re: Production Release - was Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 20:51 +0300, Richard Hainsworth wrote: > 'serious project' ??? > > For some 'serious' people, Perl6 is a 'serious project'. Concepts of > 'serious' differ amongst reasonable people. Not a problem if your > 'serious' aint my 'serious'. For programming languages, there are rankings by number of developers. A Historical Example DateNumber 19791 198016 198138 198285 1983??+2 1984??+50 1985500 19862,000 19874,000 198815,000 198950,000 1990150,000 1991400,000 Taken from the language author's "Design and Evolution" book. Chapter 7. My wife was sent on a course to learn this language in the early 1990s. So you have about 10 years to get started. -- --gh
Re: Production Release - was Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 21:04 +0300, Richard Hainsworth wrote: > Guy, > > Your idea is actually exactly what I was suggesting when I said > 'example > programs'. What convinced me that rakudo is worth pursuing was the 3-line dice class with a roll() method. What I do now is 'use fields' and build from templates. I understood fields via 'perldoc -m' in far less time than I've spent reading through Moose docs. > > I think there are/were perl6 versions for the shootout problems. I am > not sure what happened to them. I doubt they were posted on alioth. I think that a pre-requisite is: apt-get install rakudo on ubuntu. > > Getting benchmarking will be interesting. I hope I have time. I'm planning to compile and run one C and one perl program today and see if the outputs are the same (that's my understanding, so far, of the requirements for alioth). > > Regards, > Richard -- --gh
Shootout Benchmarks
On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 13:15 -0500, Guy Hulbert wrote: > > Getting benchmarking will be interesting. > > I hope I have time. I'm planning to compile and run one C and one > perl > program today and see if the outputs are the same (that's my > understanding, so far, of the requirements for alioth). This is going to be interesting. So far I've tried two of the programs but in neither case would the C version compile on my system (debian etch) so I had to use python. So I can run 'pidigits' in perl and python but both use the GNU GMP library so I had to install the C library and then modules for each of python and perl. However, it's not clear to me what is really being bench-marked if GMP is doing all the work in each case. Oh well. So far I've just written a perl script to save pages by language and program name from shootout.alioth.debian.org. However, the HTML is all munged so I had to cut-and-paste the code into files from the browser. I will try to see if there's any more sane way to do this but I think I have to join the shootout project to post on their forum since they no longer have an email list. -- --gh
Re: Production Release - was Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
On Thu, 2011-06-01 at 14:53 +0100, Daniel Carrera wrote: > I would be very interested to see something that allowed Rakudo to > talk to Fortran 95. > > I am going to use Fortran 95 for my thesis work, and maybe I could > write a module to give Rakudo a basic array language. Nothing fancy Is there anything like this for perl5 ? In 2001/2 or so someone asked me to convert their perl implementation of a published algorithm to C. Took two hours to do the prototype from the journal article and the run-time went from 24 hours to 5 minutes. The algorithm was the ruelle-takens algorithm (ca 1979, iirc) to compute the fractal dimension of a series. Application was bioinformatics and the journal was a political science one. Very weird mix. Never had a chance to get back to it but I was thinking that an array module for perl5 would be useful. I probably still have the code stashed somewhere. > like MATLAB, NumPy or PDL, but enough to try out algorithms and > prototype ideas. As it is, I'll probably use PDL or NumPy for that > purpose. -- --gh
Things to Implement for Rakudo
Changed the subject so people don't complain ;-) On Thu, 2011-06-01 at 09:32 -0500, Guy Hulbert wrote: > The algorithm was the ruelle-takens algorithm (ca 1979, iirc) to compute > the fractal dimension of a series. Google ( http://www.google.com/search?q=ruelle+takens+algorithm ) found: http://www.emayzine.com/infoage/math/math2.htm Looks like 1979 is about right. -- --gh
Re: Things to Implement for Rakudo
On Thu, 2011-06-01 at 15:56 +0100, Daniel Carrera wrote: > Is it possible to explain briefly wht the Rulle-Takens algorithm is? > That web page seems to mainly explain how some fractals like the I can't remember exactly. I found the abstract for a conference paper, published in 2000, by the person for whom the work was done (not the perl programmer). The abstract describes the algorithm as "proprietary" but saying "proprietary algorithm" was very popular marketing ploy in bioinformatics around that time. It may still be. What was done was examining the GC-content of DNA sequences to look for any kind of patterns. So, I think the DNA data was converted to GC -> 1 and AT -> 0 and then the sequence was fed into the algorithm. I think the idea was to treat each subset of lenth M as a point in space and iterate over small M from 2 until the points were no longer space-filling. Call that K. At this point you either have a K-1 dimensional manifold or a strange attractor with some fractal dimension between K-1 and K. If I find the code I could verify this part. The algorithm works out whether or not there's an attractor and what the fractal dimension is, if so. So your sequence becomes: S = 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 ... so S1 = 1, S2 = 0, S3 = 0, ... and your points for N=3 are then: 1 0 0 (Si, i=1..3) 0 0 1 (Si, i=2..4) 0 1 1 (Si, i=3..5) ... That's as much as I remember. I think the original application was probably only interested in dimensions 2/3 because turbulence is most interesting in boundary-layers. The biologists understood none of this as far as I know (I took courses in plasma turbulence in grad school, which covered this in more detail but the biologists found the paper). I've forgotten most of grad school by now. The results were fractal dimensions in the range 5-7, iirc. No idea what that means and I doubt the biologists did either. GIGO. I may have asked them why they did not map (A,C,G,T) -> (0,1,2,3) but since then, I've learned more about what GC-content implies in terms of chemistry -- it also seems to have evolutionary implications, about which I know nothing. So I don't think they even bothered trying that (since no-one else was doing it) ... old-age makes me more cynical ... and forgetful ;-). > Mandelbrot set and the Julia set are generated. Is there a specific, > simple algorithm that we can try to implement in PDL, Perl 5 and Perl > 6? > > > On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Guy Hulbert wrote: > > Changed the subject so people don't complain ;-) > > > > On Thu, 2011-06-01 at 09:32 -0500, Guy Hulbert wrote: > >> The algorithm was the ruelle-takens algorithm (ca 1979, iirc) to compute > >> the fractal dimension of a series. > > > > Google ( http://www.google.com/search?q=ruelle+takens+algorithm ) found: > > > > http://www.emayzine.com/infoage/math/math2.htm > > > > Looks like 1979 is about right. > > > > -- > > --gh > > > > > > > > -- --gh
Re: Things to Implement for Rakudo
On Thu, 2011-06-01 at 18:48 +0100, Carl Mäsak wrote: > People who don't care much about biochemistry, feel free to ignore > this post, which is admittedly not about Perl 6. > > DNA is ultimately to be turned into proteins, which make up our > bodies. I know all that ... I followed up privately to DC. I'll do the same for you to clarify. I felt that describing an algorithm to the list was probably on topic but the science is definitely not. To clarify what I posted to the list. When I said "evolutionary implications about which I know nothing", I had already hinted (GIGO). I know quite a bit about what "biologists think about evolutionary implications" but I don't believe in science by consensus. Moreover this is an area where the consensus changes rapidly. -- --gh
Re: Shootout Benchmarks
On Sat, 2011-08-01 at 09:44 -0800, Isaac Gouy wrote: > > I will try to see if there's any more sane way to do this > > > http://alioth.debian.org/scm/viewvc.php/shootout/bench/?root=shootout Thank you very much. Trying CVS was on my list of things to do but that will save me some time (and it was not the first thing on my mind). I had obtained an alioth account about a year ago but did nothing with it and it may have been cleaned up. I've CCd the list. -- --gh
Benchmarking
On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 12:39 -0500, Guy Hulbert wrote: > I'm fairly busy. I'll report _any_ progress back to the list ... if you > don't hear from me by February 1st feel free to nag me. By 'progress', > I mean something on github. I expect to get started (as defined above) before the beginning of March. Nothing yet though. Richard Hainsworth kindly contacted me today and he's started to work on it as well. I spent some time looking at what's out there and it seems that I should post things on the perl6 wiki when they get going. I notice that some of the links are broken. I have one question but I'll post that separately. -- --gh
Modules
Will there be a distinct CPAN for perl6 ? I think the answer to this is "yes" but I said I was going to ask. After sending the previous email I realized: http://www.google.com/search?q=perl6+modules And found these: http://modules.perl6.org/ http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?how_to_start_a_perl_6_module_project I'm interested in writing an app with distinct but equal perl5 and perl6 modules. Partly for personal education but the intent is that the app be useful. -- --gh
Re: benchmarking against other languages
On Sun, 2011-13-02 at 20:27 +0300, Richard Hainsworth wrote: > Before doing any more work on this benchmarking project, I was wondering > if any one else thinks the effort is worth it. Me. I hope to get started in a couple of weeks once my accounting is done. > > Although it is early days, it seemed reasonable to start setting up a > framework for benchmarking perl6 algorithms against > implementations/releases and against other languages. I am only interested in perl5, perl6 and C to start. > > The Alioth shootout is one benchmarking system, with thirteen benchmark The Alioth "benchmarking game" (current maintainer deprecates "shootout") is a very well-defined system. I would like to start there but re-organize the documentation a bit as I'm more interested in the framework than the specific results -- except for how perl6 compares with perl and C (for now). One thing I like about it is that most of the algorithms are specified and referenced. So what's being compared are implementations in specific languages. > programs. I have converted one benchmark to perl6 (two programs, > slightly different). Gradually working on the remainder. > > The results below compare perl, perl6, ruby, php, and python programs. > (I haven't got java or gcc to work yet). The input data are very small, > since perl6 is still weak. > > Hopefully the table formatting below will come out properly. Unfortunately not too well. > > name langid n size(B) cpu(s) mem(KB) status > loadelapsed(s) > nbody python 1 30 13290.010 0 % > 0 > nbody php 2 30 13330.010 0 % > 0 > nbody perl1 30 15560.010 0 % > 0 [snip] > nbody perl6 2 30 13205.41206776 0 100% > 13%5.42 > nbody perl6 1 30 13945.64208820 0 32% 89% > 5.68 > [snip] So can we conclude from this that perl6 is *really* slow right now ? -- --gh
Re: benchmarking against other languages
Some comments on what I plan to do after my 2 week hibernation. On Sun, 2011-13-02 at 20:27 +0300, Richard Hainsworth wrote: > see http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ for more info on the > algorithms. > > There are many factors that can be considered when benchmarking, > including IO and OS. > > It seemed to me it would be a good idea to fix on some "elegant" form > of > the perl6 implementation. By keeping the program the same, it will be > possible to track how developments implementations affect speed/memory > size. I am interested first in developing a generic framework around the work already done for 'the benchmark game' (TBG*). I will pretend that I am starting from scratch and define a protocol for adding algorithms and exchanging information. I have been convinced that everything following has been done for TBG but some of it is obscure. The details are hidden in CVS. I'd like to set things up so everything is fully automated. Perl6 developers (and users :-) should be able to just run the benchmarks in a "reasonable way" (one which halts :-) after installing the latest rakudo release. (A) Protocol to specify algorithm. 1. Define an algorithm and provide a reference for it. 2. Define standard inputs and implement algorithm in 2 languages. 3. Generate and verify outputs corresponding to inputs. 4. Make code, input and output available. Details can be posted on github and descriptions on the perl6 wiki. (B) Benchmark protocol per language. 1. Define hardware, operating system, language version. 2. Execute for a reasonable subset of inputs (some may be too slow or fast to be interesting). 3. Generate standard metrics (see alioth). Summaries can be posted on the perl6 wiki. It should be possible to extend the standard metrics. It should also be possible to filter them in standard ways to make results clearer. Given the above, I would just define a protocol to exchange results. One need only specify md5 sums to verify/identify input/output -- some of the algorithms in TBG have input and output so large that they are truncated in the results pages. In such cases publishing checksums (md5 is sufficient) of the results will be useful. I'm interested in autoamating B1 for other purposes. [*] Personally, I have nothing against 'shootout' but it does no harm to respect the wishes of the current maintainer of TBG on alioth. -- --gh
Re: benchmarking against other languages
Sorry, forgot. On Sun, 2011-13-02 at 20:27 +0300, Richard Hainsworth wrote: > It seemed to me it would be a good idea to fix on some "elegant" form of > the perl6 implementation. Yes!! In fact, it would be useful to provide at least TWO versions: a "standard" one and one that is optimised for TBG. Later, it would be interesting to implement the same algorithm in both perl6 and python3 (for example) and running both instances on the same parrot ... and so on ;-) -- --gh
Re: benchmarking against other languages
On Mon, 2011-14-02 at 15:56 +0100, Steffen Schwigon wrote: > If on the other side, you already have some more experiences on this > topic I would love to hear comments and ideas to apply them to my > Perl5 benchmarking. Thanks Steffen. I will look at this when I get started in two weeks. If you have not done so already, it may be worth your time to read through the documentation on shootout.alioth.debian.org. I've spent the last 10 years using perl5 to learn OO. The most useful thing I've learned is that there are very few general rules and I think the same applies to benchmarking. It all depends on what you are trying to measure and why you are trying to measure it. -- --gh
Re: benchmarking against other languages
On Mon, 2011-14-02 at 18:16 +0300, Richard Hainsworth wrote: > On 02/14/11 16:47, Guy Hulbert wrote: > > Some comments on what I plan to do after my 2 week hibernation. [snip] > > I am interested first in developing a generic framework around the work > > already done for 'the benchmark game' (TBG*). I will pretend that I am > > starting from scratch and define a protocol for adding algorithms and > > exchanging information. > TBG was designed to test languages and assumes a stable implementation > of the language. There is a possibility of different language > implementations, but in a sense they are treated as different languages. Yes. I'd like to make things a bit more abstract. I want to remove their goals but keep the useful parts of their framework. [snip] > Actually, all of the intelligence is hidden in the > bencher/makefiles/xx.ini file > Explanation is in the .ini and in the bencher/readme file. However, it > can be very obscure. That's very useful to know. [snip] > > (A) Protocol to specify algorithm. > > > > 1. Define an algorithm and provide a reference for it. > > 2. Define standard inputs and implement algorithm in 2 languages. > > 3. Generate and verify outputs corresponding to inputs. > > 4. Make code, input and output available. > TBG has directories for each benchmark, since the idea is to make it > easy to add another language to a benchmark. I would change their structure but that should be independent of the protocol. > > Also a directory for input files and output files to be diffed against > > I think that we should have directories for each language, since the > number of languages is small, and if a new implementation of a benchmark > is added, we want to see when it appears in the historical record. Keeping a historical record is useful for perl6. I want to address the following use cases: 1. perl6 development 2. TBG 3. idle curiosity 4. adding algorithms By (3), I mean it should be as easy as: $ apt-get install BM $ apt-get install C C++ perl6 $ run-bm lang: .all algo: nbody algo: pidigits algo: .done ... run ... Algorithm C C++ perl6 nbody 1 1.2 1.5 pidigits 2 1.9 3.7 The program would download examples on request and automatically find installed languages. There would be a filtered command-line presentation and the user could build his own database of results. If you can do that then you can do pretty much anything you want. [snip] -- --gh
Re: benchmarking against other languages
Last one. On Mon, 2011-14-02 at 18:16 +0300, Richard Hainsworth wrote: > I am trying to get the c and cc working, as these require a compilation > step prior to running the program. When I tried C, I got a single error multiple times for two different programs. I think my version of gcc is just too old. However, I would start by taking programs from TBG and changing them into K&R C (or vanilla C99) using #ifdefs to preserve the originals. Just as we want 'canonical' perl6, it would be useful to have 'canonical' versions of other languages. TBG already keeps multiple submissions per language/algorithm pair. In the one case in which I have personally compared C and perl5, I discovered that -O6 is at least as smart as I am. It would be interesting to see what effect compiler flags have both in C and Rakudo/Parrot. Will Coleda already suggested --optimize and as the platform matures, I'd expect various levels of optimization to be available. -- --gh
Re: Fwd: FOSDEM - perl 6 critic
On Tue, 2011-22-02 at 17:57 +0200, Gabor Szabo wrote: > For a better comparison that takes in account the features as well see > http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2010/07/an-accurate-comparison-of-perl-5-and-rakudo-star.html Thanks for posting this. Can I infer from this article that it is *rakudo*, which is slow, rather than parrot? I have the impression that I can compile perl6 down to parrot code and run that separately. If so, it will be interesting to benchmark both cases. -- --gh
Re: Fwd: FOSDEM - perl 6 critic
On Tue, 2011-22-02 at 11:28 -0500, Will Coleda wrote: > On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Guy Hulbert wrote: > > On Tue, 2011-22-02 at 17:57 +0200, Gabor Szabo wrote: > >> For a better comparison that takes in account the features as well see > >> http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2010/07/an-accurate-comparison-of-perl-5-and-rakudo-star.html > > > > Thanks for posting this. > > > > Can I infer from this article that it is *rakudo*, which is slow, rather > > than parrot? I have the impression that I can compile perl6 down to > > parrot code and run that separately. If so, it will be interesting to > > benchmark both cases. > > > > -- > > --gh > > > > > > > > Parrot's speed & memory footprint can certainly be improved - it's not > all Rakudo. Ok. So we'll want to implement algorithms in both perl6 and parrot assembler then. -- --gh
Re: Fwd: FOSDEM - perl 6 critic
On Tue, 2011-22-02 at 17:35 +0100, Moritz Lenz wrote: > Am 22.02.2011 17:14, schrieb Guy Hulbert: > > On Tue, 2011-22-02 at 17:57 +0200, Gabor Szabo wrote: > >> For a better comparison that takes in account the features as well see > >> http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2010/07/an-accurate-comparison-of-perl-5-and-rakudo-star.html > > > > Thanks for posting this. > > > > Can I infer from this article that it is *rakudo*, which is slow, rather > > than parrot? > > There are three different sources for slowness: Thanks for the clarification. > 1) parrot itself. For example the calling conventions seem to be a major > bottleneck, now that the garbage collector has be sped up significantly > 2) rakudo itself. For example the lazy list iteration code could > certainly use some optimizations > 3) For some features there's a mismatch between what parrot provides and > what rakudo/Perl 6 needs, which makes rakudo go longer ways, which in > turn implies slowness. A large example of this is that rakudo can't > serialize all built-in types, but rather has to re-generate them at > startup time - which of course is a costly affair. > > Cheers, > Moritz -- --gh
RE: FOSDEM - perl 6 critic
On Tue, 2011-22-02 at 11:48 -0500, Mason Kramer wrote: > Maybe we just need to lay off of the cute one liners and * operator abuse > when we demo Perl 6. My guess is that those one liners are not nearly as > impressive to most workaday coders as the type system, MMD, grammars, > private data, and method keyword. Ugh. Give me the one-liners ;-) I am sympathetic with the rest of your opinions ... though I probably don't agree with all of them. TIMTOWTDI drives me crazy but it seems to work!! -- --gh
Re: Current vs future Perl 6 binary size
On Fri, 2011-22-04 at 09:09 -0500, Patrick R. Michaud wrote: > We can > actually make the "perl6" executable file itself as small as > 50K, but the first thing it then does is load a several-megabyte > Parrot bytecode library. > > But overall answer to your question -- yes, we expect that > improvements in Parrot (better serialization, better bytecode > formats, better object system) will enable us to significantly > reduce the current size of the perl6 executable. I don't know > by how much, but a 50% reduction in size doesn't seem unrealistic. Does this 50% reduction in size apply to the library above (perl6 50kB, parrot lib sMB) ? Could one make further optimizations to the Parrot bytcode library via native libraries ? -- --gh
Re: Production Ready Perl 6?
On Wed, 2011-23-11 at 17:58 +0400, Richard Hainsworth wrote: > In addition, let me say this. It has been over five years since perl6 > was first mooted and progress has been slow. But slow progress and > justifications for the slow progress are not excuses. Some things do > take a long time. > > Five years seem an eternity in the frenetic world of dot_coms and the > like. But it is not a long time in other areas of human activity. > > Wanting perl6 to be finished will not help it happen. Nor will acidic > comments. I appreciate this. To me it seems more like 10 years. > > I am responding to these questions because I think it will help rakudo > to evolve faster if the work of the developers is placed in context and > their achievements are praised. > > I truly love perl6! I really would like for it to be blisteringly fast. > I worry it will never be truly fast because it is so complex, but only > the future will tell. > > So how to get things moving faster? I think a reasonable answer to "production ready" is when there is a working rakudo package in Debian stable. I see that parrot made it into squeeze (i'm still using etch ... don't ask) and I see rakudo is now in wheezy: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=rakudo&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all Looks like it's time for me to setup a wheezy box. It appears that the best guess for a wheezy release is August 2013: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2011/04/msg00430.html Perhaps this would be a better answer for the skeptical. -- --gh
Re: Production Ready Perl 6?
On Thu, 2011-24-11 at 12:43 +0100, Raphael Descamps wrote: > I think that it's a common misconception: a time-frame of 10-20 years > for developing a "new" programming language is absolutely normal. It's also worth looking at C++. This is a good reference: http://www2.research.att.com/~bs/dne.html Stroustrup documented the adoption rate quite carefully. See p36: http://www.research.att.com/~bs/hopl2.pdf The table on p36 of the paper is also in the book. After 10 years C++ had 50,000 users. It's not the same as perl6 but it's worth comparing. Since C++ was originally built on C and perl6 is being built on parrot, a straight comparison of user counts is not completely valid. There's a bit more here: http://www2.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq.html Specifically: http://www2.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq.html#invention All things considered, perl6 is doing ok. -- --gh
