Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Esteban A. Maringolo]

2017-08-21 15:39 GMT-03:00 Peter Uhnák :
> I'd prefer to not use `setName:` nor `setClassName:` as `setX:`/`setX:Y:` is
> often used as a constructor initialization pattern (as per Kent Beck's
> Smalltalk book).

I use setX: with the same purpose, as per the same book recommendation.

But isn't #name: (or #setName:) in Class used in the context of
initialization only?

> Maybe `changeNameTo:` to explicitly state the intent?

Although I don't like the "change" prefix when it's a one way
operation, that selector is unambiguous as it gets.

>> It indirectly becomes some sort of "reserved word" of the language.
>
> Class has many such methods (and I've destroyed my image many times before I
> subconsciously learned to avoid them), but only name tends to be problematic
> so introducing "special" methods for meta methods seems pointless, as a
> person doing metaprogramming would (must) take the care anyway to
> distinguish on which side they are working on.

+1


Esteban A. Maringolo

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Peter Uhnák]

I'd prefer to not use `setName:` nor `setClassName:` as `setX:`/`setX:Y:`
is often used as a constructor initialization pattern (as per Kent Beck's
Smalltalk book).

Using `className:` could be confusing, as it could be unclear whether you
are changing the name of the class itself, or the name of the class of the
class (the "Class class" class :)).
Maybe `changeNameTo:` to explicitly state the intent?

> It indirectly becomes some sort of "reserved word" of the language.

Class has many such methods (and I've destroyed my image many times before
I subconsciously learned to avoid them), but only name tends to be
problematic so introducing "special" methods for meta methods seems
pointless, as a person doing metaprogramming would (must) take the care
anyway to distinguish on which side they are working on.

Peter

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo 
wrote:

> I avoid get/set prefixes in method selectors, however it is a "good
> practice pattern" the use of the "set" prefix as a private accessor.
>
> I use it to build initialized instances,
>
> MyClass class>>#attribute: anObject
>   ^self new setAttribute: aString
>
> In some cases MyClass doesn't have the `#attribute:` setter because
> it's not meant to be modified externally.
>
> In the case of the `name` setter for a class, adding the `class`
> prefix is redundant, so I think that `setName:` is the right selector
> to use.
>
> It's like the Clipboard class, that has the `clipboardText:` selector
> instead of `text:` or something similar, but without the redundant
> `clipboard` prefix.
>
> But without diverting from the main topic, I think that the `name`
> accessor is one of the things that causes a lot of trouble because of
> unanticipated side effects. It indirectly becomes some sort of
> "reserved word" of the language.
>
> Also `name` is a common property in many domain objects, and creating
> the accessors will create name:/name1 selectors, which is confusing
> for newcomers as well, because they'd expect the #name getter instead
> of #name1.
>
> Regards,
>
> Esteban A. Maringolo
>
>
> 2017-08-21 9:42 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis :
> > its inconsistent to start using (set) in front of the name of methods and
> > unnecessary
> >
> > className:
> >
> > makes more sense to me
> >
> > Another way to do this instead have something like classMetaData which
> can
> > be a dictionary containing all the data like name of the class, method
> > dictionary etc this way we ensure that what happened with name does not
> > happen with other methods too that may find themselves in a name
> conflict by
> > an unaware user.
> >
> > Or we can provide both ways or something else.
> >
> > Class name has caused me pain too and I am no newbie , when I was making
> an
> > API for Blender it clashed with the name of the 3d objects. So this is
> > definitely not newbie orientated problem , its a fundamental problem.
> >
> > I dont mind which solution you guys follow , afterall its easy to solve
> > cause its easy to override any solution I don't like. The beauty of
> > Smalltalk :)
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 11:05 AM Marcus Denker 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> > On 20 Aug 2017, at 23:48, Brad  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I vote for setClassName:
> >> >
> >>
> >> setName: is better because this is what is there since many many years…
> >> and by just using it
> >> we must need to deprecate one method, not two.
> >>
> >> Marcus
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Esteban A. Maringolo]

I avoid get/set prefixes in method selectors, however it is a "good
practice pattern" the use of the "set" prefix as a private accessor.

I use it to build initialized instances,

MyClass class>>#attribute: anObject
  ^self new setAttribute: aString

In some cases MyClass doesn't have the `#attribute:` setter because
it's not meant to be modified externally.

In the case of the `name` setter for a class, adding the `class`
prefix is redundant, so I think that `setName:` is the right selector
to use.

It's like the Clipboard class, that has the `clipboardText:` selector
instead of `text:` or something similar, but without the redundant
`clipboard` prefix.

But without diverting from the main topic, I think that the `name`
accessor is one of the things that causes a lot of trouble because of
unanticipated side effects. It indirectly becomes some sort of
"reserved word" of the language.

Also `name` is a common property in many domain objects, and creating
the accessors will create name:/name1 selectors, which is confusing
for newcomers as well, because they'd expect the #name getter instead
of #name1.

Regards,

Esteban A. Maringolo


2017-08-21 9:42 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis :
> its inconsistent to start using (set) in front of the name of methods and
> unnecessary
>
> className:
>
> makes more sense to me
>
> Another way to do this instead have something like classMetaData which can
> be a dictionary containing all the data like name of the class, method
> dictionary etc this way we ensure that what happened with name does not
> happen with other methods too that may find themselves in a name conflict by
> an unaware user.
>
> Or we can provide both ways or something else.
>
> Class name has caused me pain too and I am no newbie , when I was making an
> API for Blender it clashed with the name of the 3d objects. So this is
> definitely not newbie orientated problem , its a fundamental problem.
>
> I dont mind which solution you guys follow , afterall its easy to solve
> cause its easy to override any solution I don't like. The beauty of
> Smalltalk :)
>
> On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 11:05 AM Marcus Denker 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On 20 Aug 2017, at 23:48, Brad  wrote:
>> >
>> > I vote for setClassName:
>> >
>>
>> setName: is better because this is what is there since many many years…
>> and by just using it
>> we must need to deprecate one method, not two.
>>
>> Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Dimitris Chloupis]

its inconsistent to start using (set) in front of the name of methods and
unnecessary

className:

makes more sense to me

Another way to do this instead have something like classMetaData which can
be a dictionary containing all the data like name of the class, method
dictionary etc this way we ensure that what happened with name does not
happen with other methods too that may find themselves in a name conflict
by an unaware user.

Or we can provide both ways or something else.

Class name has caused me pain too and I am no newbie , when I was making an
API for Blender it clashed with the name of the 3d objects. So this is
definitely not newbie orientated problem , its a fundamental problem.

I dont mind which solution you guys follow , afterall its easy to solve
cause its easy to override any solution I don't like. The beauty of
Smalltalk :)

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 11:05 AM Marcus Denker 
wrote:

>
> > On 20 Aug 2017, at 23:48, Brad  wrote:
> >
> > I vote for setClassName:
> >
>
> setName: is better because this is what is there since many many years…
> and by just using it
> we must need to deprecate one method, not two.
>
> Marcus
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Marcus Denker]

> On 20 Aug 2017, at 23:48, Brad  wrote:
> 
> I vote for setClassName:
> 

setName: is better because this is what is there since many many years… and by 
just using it
we must need to deprecate one method, not two.

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Brad]

I vote for setClassName:

Brad Selfridge


> On Aug 20, 2017, at 5:30 AM, Stephane Ducasse  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for all the information. In Pharo 70 Object does not understand
> name so it will already be a step in the right direction.
> 
> I think that we should do two things.
> - Address simply this problem for example using setName: or
> setClassName: instead of name:
> - start to prototype for a future a solution where the reflective
> calls are clearly identified.
> 
> Stef
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Luke Gorrie  wrote:
>> On 17 August 2017 at 21:52, Stephane Ducasse 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> We should not accept such kind of behavior.
>>> name: should not change the name of the class.
>> 
>> 
>> I had exactly such a problem a couple of weeks ago :).
>> 
>> I write MyClass on: foo; name: x; yourself'but I forgot the ^ return in
>> MyClass class>>on: and so called name: on the class instead of the instance.
>> Hilarity ensued :).
>> 
>> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Stephane Ducasse]

Thanks for all the information. In Pharo 70 Object does not understand
name so it will already be a step in the right direction.

I think that we should do two things.
- Address simply this problem for example using setName: or
setClassName: instead of name:
- start to prototype for a future a solution where the reflective
calls are clearly identified.

Stef

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Luke Gorrie  wrote:
> On 17 August 2017 at 21:52, Stephane Ducasse 
> wrote:
>>
>> We should not accept such kind of behavior.
>> name: should not change the name of the class.
>
>
> I had exactly such a problem a couple of weeks ago :).
>
> I write MyClass on: foo; name: x; yourself'but I forgot the ^ return in
> MyClass class>>on: and so called name: on the class instead of the instance.
> Hilarity ensued :).
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Luke Gorrie]

On 17 August 2017 at 21:52, Stephane Ducasse 
wrote:

> We should not accept such kind of behavior.
> name: should not change the name of the class.
>

I had exactly such a problem a couple of weeks ago :).

I write MyClass on: foo; name: x; yourself'but I forgot the ^ return in MyClass
class>>on: and so called name: on the class instead of the instance.
Hilarity ensued :).

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Nicolas Cellier]

The irony is that there is no such bug in Squeak.
Class does not require such selector.
But it "inherits" it in Pharo because of Trait implementation (via TClass).

Why Trait itself requires #name: is another question...
IMO it does not.
If I replace the two local send in Trait by direct i.var. access in Squeak,
then the TraitsTests-Kernel all pass...

Class has #setName:, though which is used in ClassBuilder, #obsolete and
ImageSegment.
So the same problem exists if you replace name: by setName: but it's a bit
less likely.

2017-08-19 23:19 GMT+02:00 Sean P. DeNigris :

> Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
> > any idea is welcome
>
> From
> http://forum.world.st/Woe-unto-thee-who-assigns-to-
> class-side-name-td4859734.html
> :
> Issue 16947: Class-side Inst Var "#name" Allowed, But Breaks System
>
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/16947/Class-side-Inst-
> Var-name-Allowed-But-Breaks-System
>
>
>
> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/
> Lowering-the-pain-of-newbies-tp4961937p4962584.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Sean P. DeNigris]

Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
> any idea is welcome

From
http://forum.world.st/Woe-unto-thee-who-assigns-to-class-side-name-td4859734.html
:
Issue 16947: Class-side Inst Var "#name" Allowed, But Breaks System
   
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/16947/Class-side-Inst-Var-name-Allowed-But-Breaks-System



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Lowering-the-pain-of-newbies-tp4961937p4962584.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Stephane Ducasse]

I have the impression that we should rethink the meta interface of
classes and reflective calls.

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Denis Kudriashov  wrote:
> Hi
>
> I wrote proposal in issue
>
> 2017-08-18 0:52 GMT+02:00 Tim Mackinnon :
>>
>> Is this a goal we can all share for 7.0?
>>
>> Sort out the expert tools (like git etc), but equally enable that
>> simplicity you expect for a child/newbie/expert...
>>
>> I'm in!
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On 17 Aug 2017, at 20:52, Stephane Ducasse 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi guys
>> >
>> > my son coded in Pharo 60
>> >
>> > testGuessUrlPart
>> >
>> >  |dg8|
>> >  dg8 := GameItem new;
>> >  name: 'Dragon Quest VIII : Journey Of The Cursed King';
>> >  console: 'PS2'.
>> >   self assert: dg8 guessUrlPart equals:
>> > 'dragonquestviiijourneyofthecursedking'
>> >
>> > and guess what he broke the system.
>> >
>> > We should not accept such kind of behavior.
>> > name: should not change the name of the class.
>> >
>> > I do not know the solution but I fear when I will teach 160 students
>> > this fall.
>> > We should make sure that Pharo is not a system only for experts!
>> >
>> > any idea is welcome
>> >
>> >
>> > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/20322/name-sent-to-a-class-SHOULD-NOT-automatically-rename-and-destroy-the-class
>> >
>> > Stef
>> >
>>
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Denis Kudriashov]

Hi

I wrote proposal in issue

2017-08-18 0:52 GMT+02:00 Tim Mackinnon :

> Is this a goal we can all share for 7.0?
>
> Sort out the expert tools (like git etc), but equally enable that
> simplicity you expect for a child/newbie/expert...
>
> I'm in!
>
> Tim
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 17 Aug 2017, at 20:52, Stephane Ducasse 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys
> >
> > my son coded in Pharo 60
> >
> > testGuessUrlPart
> >
> >  |dg8|
> >  dg8 := GameItem new;
> >  name: 'Dragon Quest VIII : Journey Of The Cursed King';
> >  console: 'PS2'.
> >   self assert: dg8 guessUrlPart equals:
> > 'dragonquestviiijourneyofthecursedking'
> >
> > and guess what he broke the system.
> >
> > We should not accept such kind of behavior.
> > name: should not change the name of the class.
> >
> > I do not know the solution but I fear when I will teach 160 students
> this fall.
> > We should make sure that Pharo is not a system only for experts!
> >
> > any idea is welcome
> >
> > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/20322/name-sent-to-a-class-SHOULD-NOT-
> automatically-rename-and-destroy-the-class
> >
> > Stef
> >
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Tim Mackinnon]

Is this a goal we can all share for 7.0?

Sort out the expert tools (like git etc), but equally enable that simplicity 
you expect for a child/newbie/expert...

I'm in!

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

> On 17 Aug 2017, at 20:52, Stephane Ducasse  wrote:
> 
> Hi guys
> 
> my son coded in Pharo 60
> 
> testGuessUrlPart
> 
>  |dg8|
>  dg8 := GameItem new;
>  name: 'Dragon Quest VIII : Journey Of The Cursed King';
>  console: 'PS2'.
>   self assert: dg8 guessUrlPart equals:
> 'dragonquestviiijourneyofthecursedking'
> 
> and guess what he broke the system.
> 
> We should not accept such kind of behavior.
> name: should not change the name of the class.
> 
> I do not know the solution but I fear when I will teach 160 students this 
> fall.
> We should make sure that Pharo is not a system only for experts!
> 
> any idea is welcome
> 
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/20322/name-sent-to-a-class-SHOULD-NOT-automatically-rename-and-destroy-the-class
> 
> Stef
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Peter Uhnak]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 05:23:28PM -0300, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote:
> What are the odds?

100%, this _always_ happens to some student. (You just need to omit a single 
semicolon and you've just broke it.)

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Esteban A. Maringolo]

What are the odds?

The ability to break a system in a few steps seems to be an inherited trait.

My daughter (2 years old) was randomly punching my keyboard and caused
a segfault that I couldn't reproduce afterwards.

Regards!


Esteban A. Maringolo


2017-08-17 16:52 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse :
> Hi guys
>
> my son coded in Pharo 60
>
> testGuessUrlPart
>
>   |dg8|
>   dg8 := GameItem new;
>   name: 'Dragon Quest VIII : Journey Of The Cursed King';
>   console: 'PS2'.
>self assert: dg8 guessUrlPart equals:
> 'dragonquestviiijourneyofthecursedking'
>
> and guess what he broke the system.
>
> We should not accept such kind of behavior.
> name: should not change the name of the class.
>
> I do not know the solution but I fear when I will teach 160 students this 
> fall.
> We should make sure that Pharo is not a system only for experts!
>
> any idea is welcome
>
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/20322/name-sent-to-a-class-SHOULD-NOT-automatically-rename-and-destroy-the-class
>
> Stef
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Lowering the pain of newbies

[Cyril Ferlicot]

On jeu. 17 août 2017 at 21:53, Stephane Ducasse 
wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> my son coded in Pharo 60
>
> testGuessUrlPart
>
>   |dg8|
>   dg8 := GameItem new;
>   name: 'Dragon Quest VIII : Journey Of The Cursed King';
>   console: 'PS2'.
>self assert: dg8 guessUrlPart equals:
> 'dragonquestviiijourneyofthecursedking'
>
> and guess what he broke the system.
>
> We should not accept such kind of behavior.
> name: should not change the name of the class.
>
> I do not know the solution but I fear when I will teach 160 students this
> fall.
> We should make sure that Pharo is not a system only for experts!
>
> any idea is welcome
>
>
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/20322/name-sent-to-a-class-SHOULD-NOT-automatically-rename-and-destroy-the-class
>
> Stef
>

Fast answer:

Some month (year?) ago I proposed to get pre-compilation rules that could
show warnings in interactive mode.

Maybe this can be a path to dig.

:)


> --
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

http://www.synectique.eu
2 rue Jacques Prévert 01,
59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France