Re: [Pharo-users] Fossil and Filetree

[Saša Janiška]

On Sri, 2015-12-23 at 09:20 -0500, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

> In a computing monoculture of overcomplex ways of doing programming 
> and DVCS is refreshing to find a community where alternative ideas
> like Pharo and fossil and listened and used.

Indeed...now I'm into learning Pharo trying to adjust to some
alternatives, but those will require to ask some additional questions.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
Even if you are considered to be the most sinful of all sinners, 
when you are situated in the boat of transcendental knowledge 
you will be able to cross over the ocean of miseries.

[Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Saša Janiška]

Hello,

I've decided to end my search for an appropriate language/environment in
order to write open-surce multi-platform with Pharo. :-) 

Playing a bit with 5.0 image, watching Dimitris' tutorial series,
reading several articles (I like Richard's Smalltalk-Talk), subscribed
to the mailing lists...convinced me that Smalltalk/Pharo is so much
refreshing environment to code in comparison with the pale setup present
in som many other statically-compiled languages which I was
exploring/evaluating, not to speak about the fact that with Pharo one
gets complete setup at once without the need for tedious work of
bringing editor+other tools together.

I'm aware that Pharo (Smalltalk) are different and I really like its
development environment, but wonder about deploying.

There is old thread from 2013 providing some help about deploying
desktop app, but I wonder if something has changed since then making the
whole process somewhat more smooth?

I run Debian (Sid) where I'll do all my coding, but would like to
provide versions of my desktop app for both Windows and Mac OS-es.

Any hint how to proceed?

I'd like to see see basic examples which would be equivalent to e.g.
some 'classical' desktop app having menu bar wit File/Edit/../About
items etc.

What is different with Pharo?

I assume one does not want to expose the whole dev environment to the
end-users, so wonder how to do it?

Do devs plan to improve deploying of Pharo desktop app in the future?

Although it may be strange, but I'm one of those not liking
proliferation of JS and using it for almost everything and therefore I
prefer to stay with Pharo (vs e.g. Amber) and write desktop app...


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
The intricacies of action are very hard to understand. 
Therefore one should know properly what action is, 
what forbidden action is, and what inaction is.

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Dimitris Chloupis]

As I said I away but if you are in hurry you can see the code here

https://github.com/kilon/ChronosManager/blob/master/ChronosManager.package/ChronosManager.class/class/updateToLatestVersion.st

The idea is that the class carries the current release of the project that
is installed while the latest release is read online from inside a release
file which is a simple text file with release information written in human
readable format. Regex is used to detect a v0.1 pattern and top most find
is used for fetching the number of latest release. Autoupdate also checks
internet connection with github so the user never see an error in case of
failure to connect instead it just does not update.

Next step will be to clean up and delete any previously downloaded files
via autoupdate. This way image folder won't grow in size in each autoupdate.
UIManager can be used to alert the user for a new update and ask for
permission to download it. There is no reason for git to be installed for
autoupdate to work , only thing needed is a normal Pharo image.

When I return to Athens I will improve it further and document it.

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 at 17:05, Hernán Morales Durand <
hernan.mora...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Dimitris,
>
> 2015-12-25 13:01 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis :
>
>> I am on holidays to at London for Christmas with no direct access to my
>> machine.
>>
>> But you can get a very good idea how to do what you want by taking a look
>> at standalone Pharo apps like Phratch and Dr Geo . The good news is that is
>> both very easy and extremely flexible. You can also change the icon of the
>> app and and the name of the Pharo executable to make the user completely
>> unaware officials Pharo existence. You can also add squeak to your google
>> searches because they have been several posts about this in the squeak
>> mailing list . Pharo is incompatible with squeak but it's still a fork of
>> squeak so there is a lot of common ground.
>>
>> After that you can start removing packages you don't need, Pharo is in
>> the process of of being modularlized so that is easy to start with a
>> skeleton image. If you are in need of a specific Pharo library choosing
>> Cuis which is also a squeak fork is simple and much lighter than Pharo
>> image. Squeak , Pharo and Cuis share the same VMs.
>>
>> Las but not least if you are on Windows there has been a thread on our
>> list on how to make window installers for Pharo apps the easy way. You may
>> want to google that too, I think Damien made a guide about it .
>>
>> We can go on and on and on how much Pharo can be customized. I even
>> recently made an auto update functionality for me Pharo project
>> ChronosManager which detects if the github repository has a new release
>> available and downloads it so that the user use always the latest stable
>> release without a need to worry about it or do anything about it ;)
>>
>
> If you don't mind to share, I could try to integrate it in
> ApplicationUpdater
>
> http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~hernan/ApplicationUpdater
>
> Cheers,
>
> Hernán
>
>
>>
>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 at 13:42, Saša Janiška  wrote:
>>
>>> On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 11:48 +0100, Cyril Ferlicot wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> > First, be careful with Pharo 5 because this is an alpha. There is high
>>> > chance that some things breake. If you find some bug you can report it
>>> > on pharo's fogbugz (the link is on Pharo website).
>>>
>>> OK. No problem.
>>>
>>> > For the deployment you have a different virtual machine for
>>> > OSX/Linux/windows.
>>>
>>> That's clear. :-)
>>>
>>> > For now the VM is only 32b, this can create some trouble for Linux
>>> > users but the 64b VM should come soon! :) maybe for Pharo 6?
>>>
>>> Pharo-5 is scheduled for the 1Q/2016?
>>>
>>> > For now there is not a lot of classic application. I think you can
>>> > take a look at Dr Geo.
>>>
>>> That one looks interesting. Thank you for that.
>>>
>>> > If you want to do open source you can use the same method that
>>> > PharoLauncher that open a window in full screen and let a setting for
>>> > developers to be able to get a classic Pharo environment. But the user
>>> > might have acess to the code through GTSpotter or Morph's halos.
>>>
>>> I plan to do open-source, but would like to hide code and other dev
>>> tools in order not to confus end-users.
>>>
>>> > If you don't want the user to get an acess to the code by any mean you
>>> > have to cut everything by hand for now. (Disable spotter, disable
>>> > halo, disable world menu, disable the debugger...).
>>>
>>> OK, it means it's possible...Will explore and/or ask. ;)
>>>
>>>
>>> > I would like to have a way to lock an image directly from Pharo
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>>
>>> > Welcome to Pharo and merry Christmas!
>>>
>>> Thank you!
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Gour
>>>
>>> --
>>> Perform your prescribed duty, for doing so is better than not
>>> working. One cannot even maintain one's physical body without work.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Dimitris Chloupis]

I am on holidays to at London for Christmas with no direct access to my
machine.

But you can get a very good idea how to do what you want by taking a look
at standalone Pharo apps like Phratch and Dr Geo . The good news is that is
both very easy and extremely flexible. You can also change the icon of the
app and and the name of the Pharo executable to make the user completely
unaware officials Pharo existence. You can also add squeak to your google
searches because they have been several posts about this in the squeak
mailing list . Pharo is incompatible with squeak but it's still a fork of
squeak so there is a lot of common ground.

After that you can start removing packages you don't need, Pharo is in the
process of of being modularlized so that is easy to start with a skeleton
image. If you are in need of a specific Pharo library choosing Cuis which
is also a squeak fork is simple and much lighter than Pharo image. Squeak ,
Pharo and Cuis share the same VMs.

Las but not least if you are on Windows there has been a thread on our list
on how to make window installers for Pharo apps the easy way. You may want
to google that too, I think Damien made a guide about it .

We can go on and on and on how much Pharo can be customized. I even
recently made an auto update functionality for me Pharo project
ChronosManager which detects if the github repository has a new release
available and downloads it so that the user use always the latest stable
release without a need to worry about it or do anything about it ;)

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 at 13:42, Saša Janiška  wrote:

> On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 11:48 +0100, Cyril Ferlicot wrote:
>
>
> > First, be careful with Pharo 5 because this is an alpha. There is high
> > chance that some things breake. If you find some bug you can report it
> > on pharo's fogbugz (the link is on Pharo website).
>
> OK. No problem.
>
> > For the deployment you have a different virtual machine for
> > OSX/Linux/windows.
>
> That's clear. :-)
>
> > For now the VM is only 32b, this can create some trouble for Linux
> > users but the 64b VM should come soon! :) maybe for Pharo 6?
>
> Pharo-5 is scheduled for the 1Q/2016?
>
> > For now there is not a lot of classic application. I think you can
> > take a look at Dr Geo.
>
> That one looks interesting. Thank you for that.
>
> > If you want to do open source you can use the same method that
> > PharoLauncher that open a window in full screen and let a setting for
> > developers to be able to get a classic Pharo environment. But the user
> > might have acess to the code through GTSpotter or Morph's halos.
>
> I plan to do open-source, but would like to hide code and other dev
> tools in order not to confus end-users.
>
> > If you don't want the user to get an acess to the code by any mean you
> > have to cut everything by hand for now. (Disable spotter, disable
> > halo, disable world menu, disable the debugger...).
>
> OK, it means it's possible...Will explore and/or ask. ;)
>
>
> > I would like to have a way to lock an image directly from Pharo
>
> +1
>
>
> > Welcome to Pharo and merry Christmas!
>
> Thank you!
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Gour
>
> --
> Perform your prescribed duty, for doing so is better than not
> working. One cannot even maintain one's physical body without work.
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Pharo-users] why Pillar

[Saša Janiška]

Hiya,

I see that Pharo project has embraced Pillar system for documentation
purposes and my first question was "Why Pillar?" since, iirc, comparison
was made with e.g Markdown which is, obviously, not sufficient for eg.
authoring books, but there are more capable markups with 'standard'
implementations like rst/Sphinx and Asciidoc(tor).

Then I thought it must be some deeper reason, iow. something suitable to
work more closely with Pharo itself.

Now I have two questions:

1) Can someone answer in more detail "Why Pillar?" and

2) For some time I was considering whether to settle on using rst or
AsciiDoc for *all* my writings, which means blog posts, my study notes,
preparing books, writing articles etc.

Since I've settled to use Python-powered static-site-generator (Nikola)
along with reStructuredText markup which can call external 'compilers'
to process blog posts written in specific markup, I wonder if it would
be possible to use Pillar markup with it since it seems there is cli for
it?


Sincerely,
Gour
 

-- 
When your intelligence has passed out of the dense forest 
of delusion, you shall become indifferent to all that has 
been heard and all that is to be heard.

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

[Damien Cassou]

On December 25, 2015 5:02:13 PM GMT+01:00, "Saša Janiška"  
wrote:
>Hiya,
>
>I see that Pharo project has embraced Pillar system for documentation
>purposes and my first question was "Why Pillar?" since, iirc,
>comparison
>was made with e.g Markdown which is, obviously, not sufficient for eg.
>authoring books, but there are more capable markups with 'standard'
>implementations like rst/Sphinx and Asciidoc(tor).
>
>Then I thought it must be some deeper reason, iow. something suitable
>to
>work more closely with Pharo itself.
>
>Now I have two questions:
>
>1) Can someone answer in more detail "Why Pillar?" and
>
>2) For some time I was considering whether to settle on using rst or
>AsciiDoc for *all* my writings, which means blog posts, my study notes,
>preparing books, writing articles etc.
>
>Since I've settled to use Python-powered static-site-generator (Nikola)
>along with reStructuredText markup which can call external 'compilers'
>to process blog posts written in specific markup, I wonder if it would
>be possible to use Pillar markup with it since it seems there is cli
>for
>it?
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Gour
> 

We wanted to generate slides, Cyril changed Pillar to generate slides. We want 
to generate exercises and questions, we will change Pillar to generate 
questions in a dedicated format for a specific MOOC platform. Because Pillar is 
in Pharo, is well designed and is fully tested, we can easily extend it the way 
we want. 
-- 
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without
losing enthusiasm." --Winston Churchill

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[stepharo]

Le 25/12/15 14:41, Saša Janiška a écrit :

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 11:48 +0100, Cyril Ferlicot wrote:



First, be careful with Pharo 5 because this is an alpha. There is high
chance that some things breake. If you find some bug you can report it
on pharo's fogbugz (the link is on Pharo website).

OK. No problem.


For the deployment you have a different virtual machine for
OSX/Linux/windows.

That's clear. :-)


For now the VM is only 32b, this can create some trouble for Linux
users but the 64b VM should come soon! :) maybe for Pharo 6?

Pharo-5 is scheduled for the 1Q/2016?

Yes
Probably march.



For now there is not a lot of classic application. I think you can
take a look at Dr Geo.

That one looks interesting. Thank you for that.


If you want to do open source you can use the same method that
PharoLauncher that open a window in full screen and let a setting for
developers to be able to get a classic Pharo environment. But the user
might have acess to the code through GTSpotter or Morph's halos.


have a look at the Pharo launcher.
In the future we plan to do better for deployment but for now we deploy 
an image

and control the debugger (check UnhandledError) and menu

I plan to do open-source, but would like to hide code and other dev
tools in order not to confus end-users.


If you don't want the user to get an acess to the code by any mean you
have to cut everything by hand for now. (Disable spotter, disable
halo, disable world menu, disable the debugger...).

OK, it means it's possible...Will explore and/or ask. ;)



I would like to have a way to lock an image directly from Pharo

+1



Welcome to Pharo and merry Christmas!

Thank you!


Sincerely,
Gour

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

[stepharo]

Le 25/12/15 17:02, Saša Janiška a écrit :

Hiya,

I see that Pharo project has embraced Pillar system for documentation
purposes and my first question was "Why Pillar?" since, iirc, comparison
was made with e.g Markdown which is, obviously, not sufficient for eg.
authoring books, but there are more capable markups with 'standard'
implementations like rst/Sphinx and Asciidoc(tor).

Then I thought it must be some deeper reason, iow. something suitable to
work more closely with Pharo itself.

Now I have two questions:

1) Can someone answer in more detail "Why Pillar?" and


Pillar exists before Markdown.
We did pillar syntax back in 2002.


2) For some time I was considering whether to settle on using rst or
AsciiDoc for *all* my writings, which means blog posts, my study notes,
preparing books, writing articles etc.


We do that with Pillar because we have the control over it and because
we have it since long time. The seaside book was fully written in pillar.


Since I've settled to use Python-powered static-site-generator (Nikola)
along with reStructuredText markup which can call external 'compilers'
to process blog posts written in specific markup, I wonder if it would
be possible to use Pillar markup with it since it seems there is cli for
it?
Check Ecstatic (we should do another pass on it). The idea is to use 
pillar + mustache

to generate static web pages.




Sincerely,
Gour
  

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Saša Janiška]

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 17:38 +0100, stepharo wrote:

> In the future we plan to do better for deployment but for now we
> deploy an image and control the debugger (check UnhandledError) and
> menu

OK. Good.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
A person is considered still further advanced when he regards honest 
well-wishers, affectionate benefactors, the neutral, mediators, the envious, 
friends and enemies, the pious and the sinners all with an equal mind.

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Hernán Morales Durand]

Hi Dimitris,

2015-12-25 13:01 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis :

> I am on holidays to at London for Christmas with no direct access to my
> machine.
>
> But you can get a very good idea how to do what you want by taking a look
> at standalone Pharo apps like Phratch and Dr Geo . The good news is that is
> both very easy and extremely flexible. You can also change the icon of the
> app and and the name of the Pharo executable to make the user completely
> unaware officials Pharo existence. You can also add squeak to your google
> searches because they have been several posts about this in the squeak
> mailing list . Pharo is incompatible with squeak but it's still a fork of
> squeak so there is a lot of common ground.
>
> After that you can start removing packages you don't need, Pharo is in the
> process of of being modularlized so that is easy to start with a skeleton
> image. If you are in need of a specific Pharo library choosing Cuis which
> is also a squeak fork is simple and much lighter than Pharo image. Squeak ,
> Pharo and Cuis share the same VMs.
>
> Las but not least if you are on Windows there has been a thread on our
> list on how to make window installers for Pharo apps the easy way. You may
> want to google that too, I think Damien made a guide about it .
>
> We can go on and on and on how much Pharo can be customized. I even
> recently made an auto update functionality for me Pharo project
> ChronosManager which detects if the github repository has a new release
> available and downloads it so that the user use always the latest stable
> release without a need to worry about it or do anything about it ;)
>

If you don't mind to share, I could try to integrate it in
ApplicationUpdater

http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~hernan/ApplicationUpdater

Cheers,

Hernán


>
> On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 at 13:42, Saša Janiška  wrote:
>
>> On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 11:48 +0100, Cyril Ferlicot wrote:
>>
>>
>> > First, be careful with Pharo 5 because this is an alpha. There is high
>> > chance that some things breake. If you find some bug you can report it
>> > on pharo's fogbugz (the link is on Pharo website).
>>
>> OK. No problem.
>>
>> > For the deployment you have a different virtual machine for
>> > OSX/Linux/windows.
>>
>> That's clear. :-)
>>
>> > For now the VM is only 32b, this can create some trouble for Linux
>> > users but the 64b VM should come soon! :) maybe for Pharo 6?
>>
>> Pharo-5 is scheduled for the 1Q/2016?
>>
>> > For now there is not a lot of classic application. I think you can
>> > take a look at Dr Geo.
>>
>> That one looks interesting. Thank you for that.
>>
>> > If you want to do open source you can use the same method that
>> > PharoLauncher that open a window in full screen and let a setting for
>> > developers to be able to get a classic Pharo environment. But the user
>> > might have acess to the code through GTSpotter or Morph's halos.
>>
>> I plan to do open-source, but would like to hide code and other dev
>> tools in order not to confus end-users.
>>
>> > If you don't want the user to get an acess to the code by any mean you
>> > have to cut everything by hand for now. (Disable spotter, disable
>> > halo, disable world menu, disable the debugger...).
>>
>> OK, it means it's possible...Will explore and/or ask. ;)
>>
>>
>> > I would like to have a way to lock an image directly from Pharo
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>> > Welcome to Pharo and merry Christmas!
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Gour
>>
>> --
>> Perform your prescribed duty, for doing so is better than not
>> working. One cannot even maintain one's physical body without work.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

[Saša Janiška]

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 17:36 +0100, stepharo wrote:

> Pillar exists before Markdown.
> We did pillar syntax back in 2002.

Heh, it's interesting that both rst & AsciiDoc are also, according to
Wikipedia from 2002. :-)

What about Pillar and Pharo? Any additional advantage to use it?

> We do that with Pillar because we have the control over it and because
> we have it since long time. The seaside book was fully written in
> pillar.

Can Pillar handle footnotes? (I can't see on the cheetsheet.)

Seeing that quotes are used for *both* italic and bold, I wonder if
Pillar can do nested inline markup, like e.g. bold-italic? 

It's one of the design limit of rst, but AsciiDoc can handle it.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
A person is said to be elevated in yoga when, having renounced 
all material desires, he neither acts for sense gratification 
nor engages in fruitive activities.

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Hernán Morales Durand]

2015-12-25 14:37 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis :

> As I said I away but if you are in hurry you can see the code here
>
>
> https://github.com/kilon/ChronosManager/blob/master/ChronosManager.package/ChronosManager.class/class/updateToLatestVersion.st
>
>
Thank you Dimitris, no rush for this.


> The idea is that the class carries the current release of the project that
> is installed while the latest release is read online from inside a release
> file which is a simple text file with release information written in human
> readable format.
>

So each method/class change will increase number to a new class version?


> Regex is used to detect a v0.1 pattern and top most find is used for
> fetching the number of latest release. Autoupdate also checks internet
> connection with github so the user never see an error in case of failure to
> connect instead it just does not update.
>
>
Ok, the AppUpdater uses periodicity to set the frequency of updates. I will
try to generalize to handle internet connection and other repositories like
GitHub.


> Next step will be to clean up and delete any previously downloaded files
> via autoupdate. This way image folder won't grow in size in each autoupdate.
> UIManager can be used to alert the user for a new update and ask for
> permission to download it. There is no reason for git to be installed for
> autoupdate to work , only thing needed is a normal Pharo image.
>
>
Cool :)


> When I return to Athens I will improve it further and document it.
>


Have a nice trip.

Cheers,

Hernán


>
> On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 at 17:05, Hernán Morales Durand <
> hernan.mora...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dimitris,
>>
>> 2015-12-25 13:01 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis :
>>
>>> I am on holidays to at London for Christmas with no direct access to my
>>> machine.
>>>
>>> But you can get a very good idea how to do what you want by taking a
>>> look at standalone Pharo apps like Phratch and Dr Geo . The good news is
>>> that is both very easy and extremely flexible. You can also change the icon
>>> of the app and and the name of the Pharo executable to make the user
>>> completely unaware officials Pharo existence. You can also add squeak to
>>> your google searches because they have been several posts about this in the
>>> squeak mailing list . Pharo is incompatible with squeak but it's still a
>>> fork of squeak so there is a lot of common ground.
>>>
>>> After that you can start removing packages you don't need, Pharo is in
>>> the process of of being modularlized so that is easy to start with a
>>> skeleton image. If you are in need of a specific Pharo library choosing
>>> Cuis which is also a squeak fork is simple and much lighter than Pharo
>>> image. Squeak , Pharo and Cuis share the same VMs.
>>>
>>> Las but not least if you are on Windows there has been a thread on our
>>> list on how to make window installers for Pharo apps the easy way. You may
>>> want to google that too, I think Damien made a guide about it .
>>>
>>> We can go on and on and on how much Pharo can be customized. I even
>>> recently made an auto update functionality for me Pharo project
>>> ChronosManager which detects if the github repository has a new release
>>> available and downloads it so that the user use always the latest stable
>>> release without a need to worry about it or do anything about it ;)
>>>
>>
>> If you don't mind to share, I could try to integrate it in
>> ApplicationUpdater
>>
>> http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~hernan/ApplicationUpdater
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Hernán
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 at 13:42, Saša Janiška  wrote:
>>>
 On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 11:48 +0100, Cyril Ferlicot wrote:


 > First, be careful with Pharo 5 because this is an alpha. There is high
 > chance that some things breake. If you find some bug you can report it
 > on pharo's fogbugz (the link is on Pharo website).

 OK. No problem.

 > For the deployment you have a different virtual machine for
 > OSX/Linux/windows.

 That's clear. :-)

 > For now the VM is only 32b, this can create some trouble for Linux
 > users but the 64b VM should come soon! :) maybe for Pharo 6?

 Pharo-5 is scheduled for the 1Q/2016?

 > For now there is not a lot of classic application. I think you can
 > take a look at Dr Geo.

 That one looks interesting. Thank you for that.

 > If you want to do open source you can use the same method that
 > PharoLauncher that open a window in full screen and let a setting for
 > developers to be able to get a classic Pharo environment. But the user
 > might have acess to the code through GTSpotter or Morph's halos.

 I plan to do open-source, but would like to hide code and other dev
 tools in order not to confus end-users.

 > If you don't want the user to get an acess to the code by any mean you
 > have to cut everything 

Re: [Pharo-users] Fossil and Filetree

[stepharo]

In a computing monoculture of overcomplex ways of doing programming
and DVCS is refreshing to find a community where alternative ideas
like Pharo and fossil and listened and used.

Indeed...now I'm into learning Pharo trying to adjust to some
alternatives, but those will require to ask some additional questions.


just ask do not hesitate.

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

[Damien Cassou]

On December 25, 2015 6:02:05 PM GMT+01:00, "Saša Janiška"  
wrote:
>Can Pillar handle footnotes? (I can't see on the cheetsheet.)

I don't like footnotes so I never added them. If you like them, I guess it's 
less than a hundred lines of code using annotations. 


>Seeing that quotes are used for *both* italic and bold, I wonder if
>Pillar can do nested inline markup, like e.g. bold-italic? 

Bold uses double quotes whereas italic uses single quotes. I guess mixing them 
is no problem but I don't have my computer to check. 


-- 
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without
losing enthusiasm." --Winston Churchill

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Saša Janiška]

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 11:48 +0100, Cyril Ferlicot wrote:


> First, be careful with Pharo 5 because this is an alpha. There is high
> chance that some things breake. If you find some bug you can report it
> on pharo's fogbugz (the link is on Pharo website).

OK. No problem.

> For the deployment you have a different virtual machine for
> OSX/Linux/windows.

That's clear. :-)

> For now the VM is only 32b, this can create some trouble for Linux
> users but the 64b VM should come soon! :) maybe for Pharo 6?

Pharo-5 is scheduled for the 1Q/2016?

> For now there is not a lot of classic application. I think you can
> take a look at Dr Geo.

That one looks interesting. Thank you for that.

> If you want to do open source you can use the same method that
> PharoLauncher that open a window in full screen and let a setting for
> developers to be able to get a classic Pharo environment. But the user
> might have acess to the code through GTSpotter or Morph's halos.

I plan to do open-source, but would like to hide code and other dev
tools in order not to confus end-users.

> If you don't want the user to get an acess to the code by any mean you
> have to cut everything by hand for now. (Disable spotter, disable
> halo, disable world menu, disable the debugger...).

OK, it means it's possible...Will explore and/or ask. ;)


> I would like to have a way to lock an image directly from Pharo 

+1 


> Welcome to Pharo and merry Christmas!

Thank you!


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
Perform your prescribed duty, for doing so is better than not 
working. One cannot even maintain one's physical body without work.

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Cyril Ferlicot]

Hi,

I don't have too much time now so I will try to answer fast.

First, be careful with Pharo 5 because this is an alpha. There is high
chance that some things breake. If you find some bug you can report it on
pharo's fogbugz (the link is on Pharo website).

For the deployment you have a different virtual machine for
OSX/Linux/windows.

Very few things should change on the image side.

So for a desktop app the user need to install the virtual machine and
launch the image you give him. You can also provide the VM with the image
directly if you do not want to annoy the user.

For now the VM is only 32b, this can create some trouble for Linux users
but the 64b VM should come soon! :) maybe for Pharo 6?

If I remember well I think there may be a all-in-all VM but someone need to
confirm.

For now there is not a lot of classic application. I think you can take a
look at Dr Geo.

For the deployment I have to say that for now there is not a real solution
:(
If you want to do open source you can use the same method that
PharoLauncher that open a window in full screen and let a setting for
developers to be able to get a classic Pharo environment. But the user
might have acess to the code through GTSpotter or Morph's halos.

If you don't want the user to get an acess to the code by any mean you have
to cut everything by hand for now. (Disable spotter, disable halo, disable
world menu, disable the debugger...).

I would like to have a way to lock an image directly from Pharo but I don't
have the time to do it for now.

If you need some help to do that you can ask when you will code and we can
help you.

Welcome to Pharo and merry Christmas!

--
Cyril Ferlicot
Synectique


On Friday, December 25, 2015, Saša Janiška  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I've decided to end my search for an appropriate language/environment in
> order to write open-surce multi-platform with Pharo. :-)
>
> Playing a bit with 5.0 image, watching Dimitris' tutorial series,
> reading several articles (I like Richard's Smalltalk-Talk), subscribed
> to the mailing lists...convinced me that Smalltalk/Pharo is so much
> refreshing environment to code in comparison with the pale setup present
> in som many other statically-compiled languages which I was
> exploring/evaluating, not to speak about the fact that with Pharo one
> gets complete setup at once without the need for tedious work of
> bringing editor+other tools together.
>
> I'm aware that Pharo (Smalltalk) are different and I really like its
> development environment, but wonder about deploying.
>
> There is old thread from 2013 providing some help about deploying
> desktop app, but I wonder if something has changed since then making the
> whole process somewhat more smooth?
>
> I run Debian (Sid) where I'll do all my coding, but would like to
> provide versions of my desktop app for both Windows and Mac OS-es.
>
> Any hint how to proceed?
>
> I'd like to see see basic examples which would be equivalent to e.g.
> some 'classical' desktop app having menu bar wit File/Edit/../About
> items etc.
>
> What is different with Pharo?
>
> I assume one does not want to expose the whole dev environment to the
> end-users, so wonder how to do it?
>
> Do devs plan to improve deploying of Pharo desktop app in the future?
>
> Although it may be strange, but I'm one of those not liking
> proliferation of JS and using it for almost everything and therefore I
> prefer to stay with Pharo (vs e.g. Amber) and write desktop app...
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Gour
>
> --
> The intricacies of action are very hard to understand.
> Therefore one should know properly what action is,
> what forbidden action is, and what inaction is.
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Cheers
Cyril Ferlicot

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Saša Janiška]

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 16:01 +, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:

> I am on holidays to at London for Christmas with no direct access to
> my machine.

Thanks a lot for your tutorial series and please, enjoy your holidays.
;)

> But you can get a very good idea how to do what you want by taking a
> look at standalone Pharo apps like Phratch and Dr Geo .

Phratch looks awesome, thank you for the reference.

> You can also add squeak to your google searches because they have been
> several posts about this in the squeak mailing list . Pharo is
> incompatible with squeak but it's still a fork of squeak so there is
> a lot of common ground. 

OK.

> After that you can start removing packages you don't need, Pharo is in
> the process of of being modularlized so that is easy to start with a
> skeleton image. 

The modularization process is going within V5.0?

> If you are in need of a specific Pharo library choosing Cuis which is
> also a squeak fork is simple and much lighter than Pharo image. Squeak
> , Pharo and Cuis share the same VMs. 

I do not mind the size of the image since most software written in other
programming languages is also usually quite bloated.

Moreover, it seesm Cuis is not so actively developed as Pharo, so I tend
to focus on staying with Pharo.

> Las but not least if you are on Windows there has been a thread on our
> list on how to make window installers for Pharo apps the easy way. You
> may want to google that too, I think Damien made a guide about it . 

Well, I only run Linux (Debian), but in order to produce installer for
Windows, I might use Windows under vbox, although there is slight
problem - the last license of Windows which I own is for XP. :-)

In any case, I'm excited to explore the world of Pharo. ;)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
One who is not disturbed in mind even amidst the threefold 
miseries or elated when there is happiness, and who is free 
from attachment, fear and anger, is called a sage of steady mind.

http://www.atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

-- 
The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, 
though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing 
such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, 
he is fixed in consciousness.

http://www.atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

-- 
The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, 
though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing 
such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, 
he is fixed in consciousness.

http://www.atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

-- 
An intelligent person does not take part in the sources of misery, 
which are due to contact with the material senses. O son of Kuntī, 
such pleasures have a beginning and an end, and so the wise man does 
not delight in them.

http://www.atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
-- 
One must deliver himself with the help of his mind, and not 
degrade himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, 
and his enemy as well.

http://www.atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

[Saša Janiška]

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 15:59 -0500, Robert Withers wrote:

Hello Robert,

> Welcome to Pharo!  I view use of Pharo (squeak) as a knowledge
> sacrifice eliminating bondage to Karma. This is not the mainstream and
> a good thing too.

Nice comparison...although, being at the beginning I still do not
understand/see it as a sacrifice, but can feel it is liberating.

> As an example, where is the root implementation of #new defined? Hint:
> it is close to Pharo's arupa-brahma-loka, the highest planes. ;)

:-)

> Hare hare and Merry Christmas,

Haribol and Happy New Year!

-- 
As a lamp in a windless place does not waver, so the transcendentalist, 
whose mind is controlled, remains always steady in his meditation on the 
transcendent self.

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

[Robert Withers]

> On Dec 25, 2015, at 1:58 PM, Saša Janiška  wrote:
> -- 
> As a blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the 
> fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.

---
The knowledge sacrifice is superior 
To any material sacrifice, O Arjuna. 
Because, all actions in their entirety 
Culminate in knowledge.
---

> Dear Saša,

Welcome to Pharo!  I view use of Pharo (squeak) as a knowledge sacrifice 
eliminating bondage to Karma. This is not the mainstream and a good thing too.  

As an example, where is the root implementation of #new defined? Hint: it is 
close to Pharo's arupa-brahma-loka, the highest planes. ;)

Hare hare and Merry Christmas,
Robert


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[stepharo]

There is an auto update in Pharo.
This is the one we use for building it.
Have a look at the way the script loader is built.
It fetches a numbered collection of cs and compares their number with 
the current number of the image and

load the delta.

stef

Le 25/12/15 22:50, Ben Coman a écrit :

On Sat, Dec 26, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Dimitris Chloupis
 wrote:

I am on holidays to at London for Christmas with no direct access to my
machine.

But you can get a very good idea how to do what you want by taking a look at
standalone Pharo apps like Phratch and Dr Geo . The good news is that is
both very easy and extremely flexible. You can also change the icon of the
app and and the name of the Pharo executable to make the user completely
unaware officials Pharo existence. You can also add squeak to your google
searches because they have been several posts about this in the squeak
mailing list . Pharo is incompatible with squeak but it's still a fork of
squeak so there is a lot of common ground.

After that you can start removing packages you don't need, Pharo is in the
process of of being modularlized so that is easy to start with a skeleton
image. If you are in need of a specific Pharo library choosing Cuis which is
also a squeak fork is simple and much lighter than Pharo image. Squeak ,
Pharo and Cuis share the same VMs.

Las but not least if you are on Windows there has been a thread on our list
on how to make window installers for Pharo apps the easy way. You may want
to google that too, I think Damien made a guide about it .

We can go on and on and on how much Pharo can be customized. I even recently
made an auto update functionality for me Pharo project ChronosManager which
detects if the github repository has a new release available and downloads
it so that the user use always the latest stable release without a need to
worry about it or do anything about it ;)

Cool. Is that something possible to extract? It would be nice to see
such added to PharoLauncher.
cheers -ben

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Ben Coman]

On Sat, Dec 26, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Dimitris Chloupis
 wrote:
> I am on holidays to at London for Christmas with no direct access to my
> machine.
>
> But you can get a very good idea how to do what you want by taking a look at
> standalone Pharo apps like Phratch and Dr Geo . The good news is that is
> both very easy and extremely flexible. You can also change the icon of the
> app and and the name of the Pharo executable to make the user completely
> unaware officials Pharo existence. You can also add squeak to your google
> searches because they have been several posts about this in the squeak
> mailing list . Pharo is incompatible with squeak but it's still a fork of
> squeak so there is a lot of common ground.
>
> After that you can start removing packages you don't need, Pharo is in the
> process of of being modularlized so that is easy to start with a skeleton
> image. If you are in need of a specific Pharo library choosing Cuis which is
> also a squeak fork is simple and much lighter than Pharo image. Squeak ,
> Pharo and Cuis share the same VMs.
>
> Las but not least if you are on Windows there has been a thread on our list
> on how to make window installers for Pharo apps the easy way. You may want
> to google that too, I think Damien made a guide about it .
>
> We can go on and on and on how much Pharo can be customized. I even recently
> made an auto update functionality for me Pharo project ChronosManager which
> detects if the github repository has a new release available and downloads
> it so that the user use always the latest stable release without a need to
> worry about it or do anything about it ;)

Cool. Is that something possible to extract? It would be nice to see
such added to PharoLauncher.
cheers -ben

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Yes exactly the version is returned by the class. Obviously that should
increase with each new release but for me at least that's sensible coding.
I was also considering a better scheme for the periodical checks so your
code could help me there because I don't want more than one check per
month. So it seems we can help each other ;)

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 at 19:19, Hernán Morales Durand <
hernan.mora...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2015-12-25 14:37 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis :
>
>> As I said I away but if you are in hurry you can see the code here
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/kilon/ChronosManager/blob/master/ChronosManager.package/ChronosManager.class/class/updateToLatestVersion.st
>>
>>
> Thank you Dimitris, no rush for this.
>
>
>> The idea is that the class carries the current release of the project
>> that is installed while the latest release is read online from inside a
>> release file which is a simple text file with release information written
>> in human readable format.
>>
>
> So each method/class change will increase number to a new class version?
>
>
>> Regex is used to detect a v0.1 pattern and top most find is used for
>> fetching the number of latest release. Autoupdate also checks internet
>> connection with github so the user never see an error in case of failure to
>> connect instead it just does not update.
>>
>>
> Ok, the AppUpdater uses periodicity to set the frequency of updates. I
> will try to generalize to handle internet connection and other repositories
> like GitHub.
>
>
>> Next step will be to clean up and delete any previously downloaded files
>> via autoupdate. This way image folder won't grow in size in each autoupdate.
>> UIManager can be used to alert the user for a new update and ask for
>> permission to download it. There is no reason for git to be installed for
>> autoupdate to work , only thing needed is a normal Pharo image.
>>
>>
> Cool :)
>
>
>> When I return to Athens I will improve it further and document it.
>>
>
>
> Have a nice trip.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Hernán
>
>
>>
>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 at 17:05, Hernán Morales Durand <
>> hernan.mora...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Dimitris,
>>>
>>> 2015-12-25 13:01 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis :
>>>
 I am on holidays to at London for Christmas with no direct access to my
 machine.

 But you can get a very good idea how to do what you want by taking a
 look at standalone Pharo apps like Phratch and Dr Geo . The good news is
 that is both very easy and extremely flexible. You can also change the icon
 of the app and and the name of the Pharo executable to make the user
 completely unaware officials Pharo existence. You can also add squeak to
 your google searches because they have been several posts about this in the
 squeak mailing list . Pharo is incompatible with squeak but it's still a
 fork of squeak so there is a lot of common ground.

 After that you can start removing packages you don't need, Pharo is in
 the process of of being modularlized so that is easy to start with a
 skeleton image. If you are in need of a specific Pharo library choosing
 Cuis which is also a squeak fork is simple and much lighter than Pharo
 image. Squeak , Pharo and Cuis share the same VMs.

 Las but not least if you are on Windows there has been a thread on our
 list on how to make window installers for Pharo apps the easy way. You may
 want to google that too, I think Damien made a guide about it .

 We can go on and on and on how much Pharo can be customized. I even
 recently made an auto update functionality for me Pharo project
 ChronosManager which detects if the github repository has a new release
 available and downloads it so that the user use always the latest stable
 release without a need to worry about it or do anything about it ;)

>>>
>>> If you don't mind to share, I could try to integrate it in
>>> ApplicationUpdater
>>>
>>> http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~hernan/ApplicationUpdater
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Hernán
>>>
>>>

 On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 at 13:42, Saša Janiška  wrote:

> On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 11:48 +0100, Cyril Ferlicot wrote:
>
>
> > First, be careful with Pharo 5 because this is an alpha. There is
> high
> > chance that some things breake. If you find some bug you can report
> it
> > on pharo's fogbugz (the link is on Pharo website).
>
> OK. No problem.
>
> > For the deployment you have a different virtual machine for
> > OSX/Linux/windows.
>
> That's clear. :-)
>
> > For now the VM is only 32b, this can create some trouble for Linux
> > users but the 64b VM should come soon! :) maybe for Pharo 6?
>
> Pharo-5 is scheduled for the 1Q/2016?
>
> > For now there is not a lot of classic application. I think you can
> > take a look at Dr Geo.
>
> That one looks 

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[stepharo]

After that you can start removing packages you don't need, Pharo is in
the process of of being modularlized so that is easy to start with a
skeleton image.

The modularization process is going within V5.0?

Yes and it started from day one.
We are continuously working on it. It is just a daunting task.
We changed a lot of design decision to support a modular system (such as 
settings)

and we will continue to do.
And I can tell you that it will pay off for real :)
People only look at the top of the iceberg but below we are working a 
lot (like new way of

expressing start up dependencies).

If you are in need of a specific Pharo library choosing Cuis which is
also a squeak fork is simple and much lighter than Pharo image. Squeak
, Pharo and Cuis share the same VMs.

I do not mind the size of the image since most software written in other
programming languages is also usually quite bloated.

Moreover, it seesm Cuis is not so actively developed as Pharo, so I tend
to focus on staying with Pharo.


People are fun. They want excellent tools like GSpotter but not their 
cost :).

For your information we are working on a bootstrap and during our experience
we got a small core in 80k :) So once the bootstrap will be ready for 
Pharo 50

we will start to build Pharo incrementally from this core.
So yes Pharo is moving and our goal is to change the programmer experience.


Well, I only run Linux (Debian), but in order to produce installer for
Windows, I might use Windows under vbox, although there is slight
problem - the last license of Windows which I own is for XP. :-)

In any case, I'm excited to explore the world of Pharo. ;)

Super :)




Sincerely,
Gour

--
One who is not disturbed in mind even amidst the threefold
miseries or elated when there is happiness, and who is free
from attachment, fear and anger, is called a sage of steady mind.

http://www.atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

--
The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment,
though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing
such engagements by experiencing a higher taste,
he is fixed in consciousness.

http://www.atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

--
The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment,
though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing
such engagements by experiencing a higher taste,
he is fixed in consciousness.

http://www.atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

--
An intelligent person does not take part in the sources of misery,
which are due to contact with the material senses. O son of Kuntī,
such pleasures have a beginning and an end, and so the wise man does
not delight in them.

http://www.atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

Re: [Pharo-users] example of stand-alone desktop app

[Dimitris Chloupis]

It's possible if releases are published / committed in a Github repo. It
can even include VM and all other dependencies. As a matter of facts this
code can work for even the updating Pharo itself completely bypassing
Pharolauncher. GitHub and git can easily handle binary files of any size.

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 at 21:52, Ben Coman  wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 26, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Dimitris Chloupis
>  wrote:
> > I am on holidays to at London for Christmas with no direct access to my
> > machine.
> >
> > But you can get a very good idea how to do what you want by taking a
> look at
> > standalone Pharo apps like Phratch and Dr Geo . The good news is that is
> > both very easy and extremely flexible. You can also change the icon of
> the
> > app and and the name of the Pharo executable to make the user completely
> > unaware officials Pharo existence. You can also add squeak to your google
> > searches because they have been several posts about this in the squeak
> > mailing list . Pharo is incompatible with squeak but it's still a fork of
> > squeak so there is a lot of common ground.
> >
> > After that you can start removing packages you don't need, Pharo is in
> the
> > process of of being modularlized so that is easy to start with a skeleton
> > image. If you are in need of a specific Pharo library choosing Cuis
> which is
> > also a squeak fork is simple and much lighter than Pharo image. Squeak ,
> > Pharo and Cuis share the same VMs.
> >
> > Las but not least if you are on Windows there has been a thread on our
> list
> > on how to make window installers for Pharo apps the easy way. You may
> want
> > to google that too, I think Damien made a guide about it .
> >
> > We can go on and on and on how much Pharo can be customized. I even
> recently
> > made an auto update functionality for me Pharo project ChronosManager
> which
> > detects if the github repository has a new release available and
> downloads
> > it so that the user use always the latest stable release without a need
> to
> > worry about it or do anything about it ;)
>
> Cool. Is that something possible to extract? It would be nice to see
> such added to PharoLauncher.
> cheers -ben
>
>