Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

That would be nice. So the issue is how we can find the proper size of
the community learning/doing together.


On 20/11/17 12:10, horrido wrote:
> Well, I don't think we have to worry about Pharo becoming too big. 
>
> I never expected Smalltalk to ever become big (again). I just want to see it
> lifted out of obscurity. If people talk about Pharo in the same breath as
> Clojure, Elixir, Haskell, and Rust, that would be great.
>
>
>
> Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
>> Agreed. This obsession with popularity in North America is kind of sad
>> when is looked from elsewhere and is really pervasive: from teenagers
>> comedies to technologies and business. Any community needs "proper size"
>> to keep momentum and agility. Too big, it become bureaucratic or
>> stagnant. Too little, it become fragile and non supportive.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Offray
>>
>>
>> On 20/11/17 11:20, Andrew Glynn wrote:
>>> The amount of FUD spread by M$ and IBM, just two very noticeable
>>> examples out of numerous others, is possible because very few of those
>>> laws are applicable unless the statement is part of a paid campaign by
>>> the originating company.  If I exaggerate how well my MB 400E was made
>>> on a blog post, neither I nor MB are likely to run into any legal
>>> issues.  If MB does so in an advertisement, it becomes a different
>>> matter.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> That said, I don’t think merit is really in question.  There are two
>>> bigger ones: 
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  1. To whose advantage is inefficient development and the tooling that
>>> promotes it?
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  2. How would people who find it too /difficult/ to maintain state in
>>> a single threaded language acclimatize themselves to Pharo
>>> Smalltalk (or to any actual programming language, for that matter) ?
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> The first question doesn’t have one answer, since it’s to the
>>> advantage of a number of interested parties, from large organizations
>>> that can afford inefficiency more than smaller competitors (and
>>> simultaneously can afford the not inconsequential investment in
>>> writing a proprietary Smalltalk or something similar for things that
>>> “must work”), to click-bait online ‘forums’ such as “Slack Overload”. 
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> The second, well, I suppose how you would answer it depends on your
>>> experience working with said people.  My own hasn’t been particularly
>>> positive.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Not that I’m particularly enamoured with the idea of Pharo becoming
>>> mainstream.  It would then be subject to the same disruption as
>>> current mainstream environments.  The degradation of Java environments
>>> over the past 20 years is a good example.  It was never great, but the
>>> combination of syntactic parmesan to hide the bad spaghetti and the
>>> need to support every passing fad has made it nearly unusable. I’ve
>>> seen a number of companies specifying Java 7 or even Java 6 in their
>>> tech stacks “because Java 8 is too unreliable”.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Until mainstream “software engineers” start /acting/ like engineers,
>>> i.e. people who make things /work/, rather than popularity contestants
>>> or fashion victims, that won’t change.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Andrew Glynn
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> *From: *Richard A. O'Keefe mailto:
>> ok@.ac
>> 
>>> *Sent: *Sunday, November 19, 2017 6:19 PM
>>> *To: *
>> Pharo-users@.pharo
>>  mailto:
>> Pharo-users@.pharo
>> 
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> I'm obviously missing a lot of the context here, but in  my
>>>
>>> country (New Zealand) there is something called the
>>>
>>> Fair Trading Act.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> My understanding from reading the Commerce Commission web
>>>
>>> site is that
>>>
>>>   - false or misleading representations about goods or
>>>
>>>     services or the availability of goods are against the
>>>
>>>     law
>>>
>>>   - "The penalties for breaching the Act can be severe"
>>>
>>>     (Grant Harris).
>>>
>>>   - obviously wild exaggeratio

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

Well, I don't think we have to worry about Pharo becoming too big. 

I never expected Smalltalk to ever become big (again). I just want to see it
lifted out of obscurity. If people talk about Pharo in the same breath as
Clojure, Elixir, Haskell, and Rust, that would be great.



Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> Agreed. This obsession with popularity in North America is kind of sad
> when is looked from elsewhere and is really pervasive: from teenagers
> comedies to technologies and business. Any community needs "proper size"
> to keep momentum and agility. Too big, it become bureaucratic or
> stagnant. Too little, it become fragile and non supportive.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Offray
> 
> 
> On 20/11/17 11:20, Andrew Glynn wrote:
>>
>> The amount of FUD spread by M$ and IBM, just two very noticeable
>> examples out of numerous others, is possible because very few of those
>> laws are applicable unless the statement is part of a paid campaign by
>> the originating company.  If I exaggerate how well my MB 400E was made
>> on a blog post, neither I nor MB are likely to run into any legal
>> issues.  If MB does so in an advertisement, it becomes a different
>> matter.
>>
>>  
>>
>> That said, I don’t think merit is really in question.  There are two
>> bigger ones: 
>>
>>  
>>
>>  1. To whose advantage is inefficient development and the tooling that
>> promotes it?
>>
>>  
>>
>>  2. How would people who find it too /difficult/ to maintain state in
>> a single threaded language acclimatize themselves to Pharo
>> Smalltalk (or to any actual programming language, for that matter) ?
>>
>>  
>>
>> The first question doesn’t have one answer, since it’s to the
>> advantage of a number of interested parties, from large organizations
>> that can afford inefficiency more than smaller competitors (and
>> simultaneously can afford the not inconsequential investment in
>> writing a proprietary Smalltalk or something similar for things that
>> “must work”), to click-bait online ‘forums’ such as “Slack Overload”. 
>>
>>  
>>
>> The second, well, I suppose how you would answer it depends on your
>> experience working with said people.  My own hasn’t been particularly
>> positive.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Not that I’m particularly enamoured with the idea of Pharo becoming
>> mainstream.  It would then be subject to the same disruption as
>> current mainstream environments.  The degradation of Java environments
>> over the past 20 years is a good example.  It was never great, but the
>> combination of syntactic parmesan to hide the bad spaghetti and the
>> need to support every passing fad has made it nearly unusable. I’ve
>> seen a number of companies specifying Java 7 or even Java 6 in their
>> tech stacks “because Java 8 is too unreliable”.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Until mainstream “software engineers” start /acting/ like engineers,
>> i.e. people who make things /work/, rather than popularity contestants
>> or fashion victims, that won’t change.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Andrew Glynn
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From: *Richard A. O'Keefe mailto:

> ok@.ac

> 
>> *Sent: *Sunday, November 19, 2017 6:19 PM
>> *To: *

> Pharo-users@.pharo

>  mailto:

> Pharo-users@.pharo

> 
>> *Subject: *Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort
>>
>>  
>>
>> I'm obviously missing a lot of the context here, but in  my
>>
>> country (New Zealand) there is something called the
>>
>> Fair Trading Act.
>>
>>  
>>
>> My understanding from reading the Commerce Commission web
>>
>> site is that
>>
>>   - false or misleading representations about goods or
>>
>>     services or the availability of goods are against the
>>
>>     law
>>
>>   - "The penalties for breaching the Act can be severe"
>>
>>     (Grant Harris).
>>
>>   - obviously wild exaggerations made to be funny are sort
>>
>>     of OK, but if anyone falls for them you could find this
>>
>>     tested in court
>>
>>   - "Any claims made to bolster the image of a business or
>>
>>     its products or services must be accurate."
>>
>>   - "The Act applies even when there was no intention to
>>
>>     breach the Act".  (Grant Harris again.)
>>
>>  
>>
>> http://www.comcom.govt.nz/fair-trading/fair-trading-act-fact-sheets/claiming-you-re-something-you-re-not/
>>
>>  
>

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Agreed. This obsession with popularity in North America is kind of sad
when is looked from elsewhere and is really pervasive: from teenagers
comedies to technologies and business. Any community needs "proper size"
to keep momentum and agility. Too big, it become bureaucratic or
stagnant. Too little, it become fragile and non supportive.

Cheers,

Offray


On 20/11/17 11:20, Andrew Glynn wrote:
>
> The amount of FUD spread by M$ and IBM, just two very noticeable
> examples out of numerous others, is possible because very few of those
> laws are applicable unless the statement is part of a paid campaign by
> the originating company.  If I exaggerate how well my MB 400E was made
> on a blog post, neither I nor MB are likely to run into any legal
> issues.  If MB does so in an advertisement, it becomes a different matter.
>
>  
>
> That said, I don’t think merit is really in question.  There are two
> bigger ones: 
>
>  
>
>  1. To whose advantage is inefficient development and the tooling that
> promotes it?
>
>  
>
>  2. How would people who find it too /difficult/ to maintain state in
> a single threaded language acclimatize themselves to Pharo
> Smalltalk (or to any actual programming language, for that matter) ?
>
>  
>
> The first question doesn’t have one answer, since it’s to the
> advantage of a number of interested parties, from large organizations
> that can afford inefficiency more than smaller competitors (and
> simultaneously can afford the not inconsequential investment in
> writing a proprietary Smalltalk or something similar for things that
> “must work”), to click-bait online ‘forums’ such as “Slack Overload”. 
>
>  
>
> The second, well, I suppose how you would answer it depends on your
> experience working with said people.  My own hasn’t been particularly
> positive.
>
>  
>
> Not that I’m particularly enamoured with the idea of Pharo becoming
> mainstream.  It would then be subject to the same disruption as
> current mainstream environments.  The degradation of Java environments
> over the past 20 years is a good example.  It was never great, but the
> combination of syntactic parmesan to hide the bad spaghetti and the
> need to support every passing fad has made it nearly unusable. I’ve
> seen a number of companies specifying Java 7 or even Java 6 in their
> tech stacks “because Java 8 is too unreliable”.
>
>  
>
> Until mainstream “software engineers” start /acting/ like engineers,
> i.e. people who make things /work/, rather than popularity contestants
> or fashion victims, that won’t change.
>
>  
>
> Andrew Glynn
>
>  
>
> *From: *Richard A. O'Keefe <mailto:o...@cs.otago.ac.nz>
> *Sent: *Sunday, November 19, 2017 6:19 PM
> *To: *Pharo-users@lists.pharo.org <mailto:Pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort
>
>  
>
> I'm obviously missing a lot of the context here, but in  my
>
> country (New Zealand) there is something called the
>
> Fair Trading Act.
>
>  
>
> My understanding from reading the Commerce Commission web
>
> site is that
>
>   - false or misleading representations about goods or
>
>     services or the availability of goods are against the
>
>     law
>
>   - "The penalties for breaching the Act can be severe"
>
>     (Grant Harris).
>
>   - obviously wild exaggerations made to be funny are sort
>
>     of OK, but if anyone falls for them you could find this
>
>     tested in court
>
>   - "Any claims made to bolster the image of a business or
>
>     its products or services must be accurate."
>
>   - "The Act applies even when there was no intention to
>
>     breach the Act".  (Grant Harris again.)
>
>  
>
> http://www.comcom.govt.nz/fair-trading/fair-trading-act-fact-sheets/claiming-you-re-something-you-re-not/
>
>  
>
> The Fair Trading Act was passed as part of a program of market
>
> liberalisation and in order to foster competition and market
>
> efficiency, and the majority of the cases have been trader-to-
>
> trader.  Why mention this?  Because it's not just places where
>
> consumer protection is high-ranked that have such laws; it's
>
> also places that are gung-ho about free markets and competition
>
> and want to protect businesses.
>
>  
>
> Law in the USA varies from state to state.  For California, see
>
> https://www.truthinadvertising.org/california/
>
> (which has a navbar on the right for other states).
>
>  
>
> Me, I think Pharo is good enough to "sell" on its merits
>
> without any exaggerations.  (If you could combine the great
>
> looks of Dolphin Smalltalk with the great features of Pharo,
>
> drool...)
>
>  
>
>  
>

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Richard,

I don't mean to be harsh, but I'm amused that you think that everyone
misunderstand you, and you have nothing to learn from the community that
is using and developing the technologies you're promoting.

As said in my previous email about this thread, what is the point of
having a community that writes, reads and talks if we're unable to learn
and change?

Cheers,

Offray


On 20/11/17 11:17, horrido wrote:
> Fortunately, I'm not selling a product, good or service. I'm selling an idea.
> The idea that you should use Pharo for software development. This isn't
> about commerce or trade, and thus there can be no basis for litigation.
>
> I'm rather amused that everyone has missed the fundamental point, which I
> made long ago at the start of my campaign:
>
> *I'm adopting marketing techniques or practices to promote Smalltalk.*
>
> That's not to say that I'm marketing a good or service, so whatever laws
> there are, they don't apply. I'm just borrowing a method to *raise public
> awareness*.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Andrew Glynn]

The amount of FUD spread by M$ and IBM, just two very noticeable examples out 
of numerous others, is possible because very few of those laws are applicable 
unless the statement is part of a paid campaign by the originating company.  If 
I exaggerate how well my MB 400E was made on a blog post, neither I nor MB are 
likely to run into any legal issues.  If MB does so in an advertisement, it 
becomes a different matter.

That said, I don’t think merit is really in question.  There are two bigger 
ones:  

1. To whose advantage is inefficient development and the tooling that promotes 
it? 

2. How would people who find it too difficult to maintain state in a single 
threaded language acclimatize themselves to Pharo Smalltalk (or to any actual 
programming language, for that matter) ?

The first question doesn’t have one answer, since it’s to the advantage of a 
number of interested parties, from large organizations that can afford 
inefficiency more than smaller competitors (and simultaneously can afford the 
not inconsequential investment in writing a proprietary Smalltalk or something 
similar for things that “must work”), to click-bait online ‘forums’ such as 
“Slack Overload”.  

The second, well, I suppose how you would answer it depends on your experience 
working with said people.  My own hasn’t been particularly positive.

Not that I’m particularly enamoured with the idea of Pharo becoming mainstream. 
 It would then be subject to the same disruption as current mainstream 
environments.  The degradation of Java environments over the past 20 years is a 
good example.  It was never great, but the combination of syntactic parmesan to 
hide the bad spaghetti and the need to support every passing fad has made it 
nearly unusable. I’ve seen a number of companies specifying Java 7 or even Java 
6 in their tech stacks “because Java 8 is too unreliable”.

Until mainstream “software engineers” start acting like engineers, i.e. people 
who make things work, rather than popularity contestants or fashion victims, 
that won’t change.

Andrew Glynn

From: Richard A. O'Keefe
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 6:19 PM
To: Pharo-users@lists.pharo.org
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

I'm obviously missing a lot of the context here, but in  my
country (New Zealand) there is something called the
Fair Trading Act.

My understanding from reading the Commerce Commission web
site is that
  - false or misleading representations about goods or
services or the availability of goods are against the
law
  - "The penalties for breaching the Act can be severe"
(Grant Harris).
  - obviously wild exaggerations made to be funny are sort
of OK, but if anyone falls for them you could find this
tested in court
  - "Any claims made to bolster the image of a business or
its products or services must be accurate."
  - "The Act applies even when there was no intention to
breach the Act".  (Grant Harris again.)

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/fair-trading/fair-trading-act-fact-sheets/claiming-you-re-something-you-re-not/

The Fair Trading Act was passed as part of a program of market
liberalisation and in order to foster competition and market
efficiency, and the majority of the cases have been trader-to-
trader.  Why mention this?  Because it's not just places where
consumer protection is high-ranked that have such laws; it's
also places that are gung-ho about free markets and competition
and want to protect businesses.

Law in the USA varies from state to state.  For California, see
https://www.truthinadvertising.org/california/
(which has a navbar on the right for other states).

Me, I think Pharo is good enough to "sell" on its merits
without any exaggerations.  (If you could combine the great
looks of Dolphin Smalltalk with the great features of Pharo,
drool...)

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

Fortunately, I'm not selling a product, good or service. I'm selling an idea.
The idea that you should use Pharo for software development. This isn't
about commerce or trade, and thus there can be no basis for litigation.

I'm rather amused that everyone has missed the fundamental point, which I
made long ago at the start of my campaign:

*I'm adopting marketing techniques or practices to promote Smalltalk.*

That's not to say that I'm marketing a good or service, so whatever laws
there are, they don't apply. I'm just borrowing a method to *raise public
awareness*.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Richard A. O'Keefe]

I'm obviously missing a lot of the context here, but in  my
country (New Zealand) there is something called the
Fair Trading Act.

My understanding from reading the Commerce Commission web
site is that
 - false or misleading representations about goods or
   services or the availability of goods are against the
   law
 - "The penalties for breaching the Act can be severe"
   (Grant Harris).
 - obviously wild exaggerations made to be funny are sort
   of OK, but if anyone falls for them you could find this
   tested in court
 - "Any claims made to bolster the image of a business or
   its products or services must be accurate."
 - "The Act applies even when there was no intention to
   breach the Act".  (Grant Harris again.)

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/fair-trading/fair-trading-act-fact-sheets/claiming-you-re-something-you-re-not/

The Fair Trading Act was passed as part of a program of market
liberalisation and in order to foster competition and market
efficiency, and the majority of the cases have been trader-to-
trader.  Why mention this?  Because it's not just places where
consumer protection is high-ranked that have such laws; it's
also places that are gung-ho about free markets and competition
and want to protect businesses.

Law in the USA varies from state to state.  For California, see
https://www.truthinadvertising.org/california/
(which has a navbar on the right for other states).

Me, I think Pharo is good enough to "sell" on its merits
without any exaggerations.  (If you could combine the great
looks of Dolphin Smalltalk with the great features of Pharo,
drool...)

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

t;
> Nov 2
>
>  
>
> How the Results of Disruption Changes the Discussion Between
> Aficionados of Specific Languages and Environments
>
> Read more…
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
>
> Andrew Glynn
>
> Nov 2
>
> Disrupted Software the Disrupted Software Industry Uses to Build
> Disruptive Software
>
> Read more…
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
>
> Andrew Glynn
>
> Nov 2
>
> Software is Virtual; the Virtual is Disruptive; Software Disrupts the
> Development of Software
>
> Read more…
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
>
> Andrew Glynn
>
> Nov 2
>
> Three Comments from a Conversation on a Mailing List
>
> Read more…
>
>  
>
> 10
>
>  
>
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
>
> Andrew Glynn
>
> Oct 28
>
> Reasons … and Reasons , How the Software Industry Turns its Issues
> into Subscriptions
>
>  
>
> Read more…
>
>  
>
> 12
>
>  
>
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
>
> Andrew Glynn
>
> Oct 19
>
> A Commentary On Three Quotes From “Working on the Go Team at Google”
>
> (https://medium.com/@ljrudberg/working-on-the-go-team-at-google-917b2c8d35ff)
>
> “First, a little bit about myself: I am 23 years old, less than two
> years out of my undergrad degree at UW…
>
> Read more…
>
>  
>
> 1 response
>
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
>
> Andrew Glynn
>
> Oct 11
>
> Building-With Versus Building-On:
>
> Improving Software Development Incrementally
>
> Three articles and a doctoral thesis that I came across or had pointed
> out to me recently deal with the state of the software industry from
> different angles. However different they are, they do relate, and by
> putting them…
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From: *Dimitris Chloupis <mailto:kilon.al...@gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Saturday, November 18, 2017 5:10 AM
> *To: *Any question about pharo is welcome
> <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort
>
>  
>
>
> First of all, you need to understand that this article, like
> nearly all of
> my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones
> about
> this.
>
> If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves
> exaggeration
> and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
> marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.
>
> This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you
> think
> Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.
>
> So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who
> cares? I'm
> trying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them.
> If I have
> to exaggerate, I will do so.
>
>  
>
> Actually there is a guy that I know that he actually cares
>
>  
>
> very much
>
>  
>
> he is called 
>
>  
>
> "Mr Law"
>
>  
>
> When a marketing , bends the truth and especially when it lies under
> UK, Greek  and European Law is called "fraud" and it punishable under
> crimininal (jail time) and civil (compensation for damaged cause by
> fraudalent marketing) law. The penalties can be extemely severe if the
> fraud caused a substantial amount of damage in some way.
>
>  
>
> Under those legal systems I have studied (I am a lawyer) the only case
> that someone is allowed to lie is when he defiends himself. If you
> ever wondered how its possible lawyers to lie , now you know. Lying
> and bending the truth in this case is a legal principe set since
> ancient times by law to provide extra pressure to prove the a party is
> guilty. Its called "proof beyond reasonable doubt" and is  a very
> important legal principle. 
>
>  
>
> Outside that, say I submited a document as a defense lawyer that is
> edited or changed in some way , its fraud and especially fraud against
> the court is even more punished. If a witeness , exaggerates , bends
> the truth and especially if he or she lies, its fraud and the court
> can send him straigh to jail with his lawyer.
>
>  
>
> Apple certainly does not do what you.
>
>  
>
> Actually Apple goes to great lenghts proving its claims , usually when
> Apple says "iPhone has a battery of 10 hours" you will see an asterisk
> that will point you to small letters in the bottom of the page that
> says exactly under which conditions 10 hours can be achieved. 
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

> Apple certainly does not do what you.

Really??? I don't know what kind of ads Apple runs in Europe, but in North
America, it's very obvious when Apple exaggerates or bends the truth.
Remember those popular "I'm a PC, I'm a Mac" ads from a few years ago? They
had all kinds of exaggerations and half-truths about the benefits of Mac vs
the drawbacks of PC. For example, the Mac OS has never had significant
upgrade problems the way Vista had? Who the hell believes this?

The Mac has many default apps included that obviate the need to buy
additional software? Sorry, that's bullcrap. I do video editing, and I find
the included video editor on the Mac to be too limited and inflexible, so I
have to look for third-party software.

The Mac is better at creative stuff than PC? That, too, is bullcrap.

The Mac is immune to viruses and spyware? No need to comment on this lie.

In my articles, I have never made an outright lie. I've made exaggerations
but that's not against the law. Everything I state always has a grain of
truth. And remember, I am still entitled to literary licence. What does
European law have to say about literary licence?



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Hi,

Richard I think that there is possibility to create a more constructive
conversation while promoting Pharo. Ben Coman has give his balanced view
pairing constructive criticism with advice, Sven and Andrew have given
some post examples, written by them, that help to give better coverage
to Smalltalk and Pharo, while providing technical or factual accuracy. I
don't think this needs to be a fight over style. Having a community that
reads and criticize you is important and while you can keep your style
and work, you could also see if some of those critics and advice can
help you to improve as a writer. I'm not a native English speaker and
having constant Ben's advice, proof reading and encouragement, for
example, has been pretty worthy. I try to improve from the feedback I
get from this (generally) supportive community.

What is the point of writing, reading and talking then, if we're not
willing to change?

Cheers,

Offray

On 18/11/17 13:38, horrido wrote:
> Yes, I've even cited your excellent "Elegant Pharo Code" article on several
> occasions. Okay, perhaps I'm wrong about the number of pageviews.
>
> Nevertheless, prior to my campaign, hardly anyone talked about Smalltalk.
> That was my essential point.
>
> By the way, I am gratified that at Medium, I have nearly 1,900 followers. I
> realize that's not a huge number, since many other Medium authors have tens
> of thousands of followers, but it's far above the average. That means I have
> considerable reach.
>
> I can get people talking! And that's not a bad thing. Let's keep the
> conversation going...
>
>
>
> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>>> On 18 Nov 2017, at 18:19, horrido 
>> horrido.hobbies@
>>  wrote:
>>> Can anyone show me one technical article in the past 20 years that has
>>> garnered more than 10,000 pageviews? I've published eight such articles
>>> in
>>> the past 3 years!
>> Views or reads ?
>>
>> Popularity is not necessarily an indication of quality, but yes, it is
>> possible to reach such numbers by writing technical articles. Here are the
>> current stats of 3 of my articles on Medium:
>>
>>
>>
>> I do not know what marketing to programmers means, or if it is really
>> possible. In my opinion the best we can do is to clearly and accurately
>> describe how things are, why we use and like Pharo, and hope people are
>> interested enough to explore further on their own. And to build an
>> excellent system, of course.
>>
>> Sven
>>
>> --
>> Sven Van Caekenberghe
>> Proudly supporting Pharo
>> http://pharo.org
>> http://association.pharo.org
>> http://consortium.pharo.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Screen Shot 2017-11-18 at 18.40.55.png (57K)
>> http://forum.world.st/attachment/5029420/0/Screen%20Shot%202017-11-18%20at%2018.40.55.png;
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

Yes, I've even cited your excellent "Elegant Pharo Code" article on several
occasions. Okay, perhaps I'm wrong about the number of pageviews.

Nevertheless, prior to my campaign, hardly anyone talked about Smalltalk.
That was my essential point.

By the way, I am gratified that at Medium, I have nearly 1,900 followers. I
realize that's not a huge number, since many other Medium authors have tens
of thousands of followers, but it's far above the average. That means I have
considerable reach.

I can get people talking! And that's not a bad thing. Let's keep the
conversation going...



Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>> On 18 Nov 2017, at 18:19, horrido 

> horrido.hobbies@

>  wrote:
>> 
>> Can anyone show me one technical article in the past 20 years that has
>> garnered more than 10,000 pageviews? I've published eight such articles
>> in
>> the past 3 years!
> 
> Views or reads ?
> 
> Popularity is not necessarily an indication of quality, but yes, it is
> possible to reach such numbers by writing technical articles. Here are the
> current stats of 3 of my articles on Medium:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not know what marketing to programmers means, or if it is really
> possible. In my opinion the best we can do is to clearly and accurately
> describe how things are, why we use and like Pharo, and hope people are
> interested enough to explore further on their own. And to build an
> excellent system, of course.
> 
> Sven
> 
> --
> Sven Van Caekenberghe
> Proudly supporting Pharo
> http://pharo.org
> http://association.pharo.org
> http://consortium.pharo.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screen Shot 2017-11-18 at 18.40.55.png (57K)
> http://forum.world.st/attachment/5029420/0/Screen%20Shot%202017-11-18%20at%2018.40.55.png;





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

> On 18 Nov 2017, at 18:19, horrido  wrote:
> 
> Can anyone show me one technical article in the past 20 years that has
> garnered more than 10,000 pageviews? I've published eight such articles in
> the past 3 years!

Views or reads ?

Popularity is not necessarily an indication of quality, but yes, it is possible 
to reach such numbers by writing technical articles. Here are the current stats 
of 3 of my articles on Medium:



I do not know what marketing to programmers means, or if it is really possible. 
In my opinion the best we can do is to clearly and accurately describe how 
things are, why we use and like Pharo, and hope people are interested enough to 
explore further on their own. And to build an excellent system, of course.

Sven

--
Sven Van Caekenberghe
Proudly supporting Pharo
http://pharo.org
http://association.pharo.org
http://consortium.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

Looks like we may have a taker! You're my Doctor Who regeneration. :-)

I'm in earnest. If someone can take over the marketing duties, I'll be glad
to step down. I just don't want to see Smalltalk slip back into obscurity.

Remember what marketing is all about:attracting eyeballs; raising curiosity;
precipitating discussion; appealling to emotionality.

Marketing is not about pumping out technical articles. We've seen plenty of
those over the years and they've done squat to promote Smalltalk.

Can anyone show me one technical article in the past 20 years that has
garnered more than 10,000 pageviews? I've published eight such articles in
the past 3 years!

I want someone to continue doing this. Publish articles on a regular basis
that draw attention to Pharo and Smalltalk. Inspire interest. Get them
excited. Make Pharo the next iPhone!



aglynn42 wrote
> Here’s a list of the articles @ https://medium.com/@dasein42/latest, in
> case any catch your eye:
> 
> Latest
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 14
> “Dynamics Trumps Semantics”: Why Java is Easy to Learn, but Difficult to
> be Good at.
> 
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 8
> IoT Initiative — “little brother”
> 
> The core notion behind “little brother” is to overcome the inevitable lag
> between the increase in…
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 7
> Software Developer Tooling: Then and Now
> 
> While my criticisms of current tooling for development are often met with
> an attitude of…
> Read more…
> 
> 6
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 5
> 
> The Inverted Ambiguity of the Post-Modern Public, or Not
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 5
> Someone Was Asking About Devops …
> 
> Someone I know was asking me about devops the other day, particularly the
> number and variety of…
> Read more…
> 
> 5
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 5
> Reality and the ‘Simple’ True, or the True-in-Itself, or the Truth
> 
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 5
> What is Intended by the term “Object-Oriented”?
> 
> Read more…
> 
> 1
> 1 response
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 4
> Pharo Smalltalk as a DSL Without a DSL
> 
> If anyone has written a DSL in Eclipse, for example, simply the base
> projects Eclipse…
> Read more…
> 
> 22
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 4
> 
> Tooling: Design of Meta and Underlying Rationale
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 2
> 
> How the Results of Disruption Changes the Discussion Between Aficionados
> of Specific Languages and Environments
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 2
> Disrupted Software the Disrupted Software Industry Uses to Build
> Disruptive Software
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 2
> Software is Virtual; the Virtual is Disruptive; Software Disrupts the
> Development of Software
> Read more…
> 
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Nov 2
> Three Comments from a Conversation on a Mailing List
> Read more…
> 
> 10
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Oct 28
> Reasons … and Reasons , How the Software Industry Turns its Issues into
> Subscriptions
> 
> Read more…
> 
> 12
> 
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Oct 19
> A Commentary On Three Quotes From “Working on the Go Team at Google”
> (https://medium.com/@ljrudberg/working-on-the-go-team-at-google-917b2c8d35ff)
> “First, a little bit about myself: I am 23 years old, less than two years
> out of my undergrad degree at UW…
> Read more…
> 
> 1 response
> Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
> Andrew Glynn
> Oct 11
> Building-With Versus Building-On:
> Improving Software Development Incrementally
> Three articles and a doctoral thesis that I came across or had pointed out
> to me recently deal with the state of the software industry from different
> angles. However different they are, they do relate, and by putting them…
> 
> 
> From: Dimitris Chloupis
> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 5:10 AM
> To: Any question about pharo is welcome
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort
> 
> 
> First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
> my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Brad Selfridge]

I’m starting to get really annoyed with all the naysayers within our own 
community that seem to pick apart every dot and tittle of any article this man 
produces. It seems as though people don’t really care whether the Smalltalk 
community grows or dies. I view pretty much any news as goods news as long as 
it pushes the narrative and creates exposure. 

Ps. Being from the US, I take direct offense to the political mud that is slung 
at us. This kind of tripe has NO place on this forum and needs an instant 
retraction.


On Nov 18, 2017, at 5:09 AM, Dimitris Chloupis  wrote:

>> 
>> First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
>> my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about
>> this.
>> 
>> If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves exaggeration
>> and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
>> marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.
>> 
>> This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you think
>> Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.
>> 
>> So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'm
>> trying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I have
>> to exaggerate, I will do so.
> 
> Actually there is a guy that I know that he actually cares
> 
> very much
> 
> he is called 
> 
> "Mr Law"
> 
> When a marketing , bends the truth and especially when it lies under UK, 
> Greek  and European Law is called "fraud" and it punishable under crimininal 
> (jail time) and civil (compensation for damaged cause by fraudalent 
> marketing) law. The penalties can be extemely severe if the fraud caused a 
> substantial amount of damage in some way.
> 
> Under those legal systems I have studied (I am a lawyer) the only case that 
> someone is allowed to lie is when he defiends himself. If you ever wondered 
> how its possible lawyers to lie , now you know. Lying and bending the truth 
> in this case is a legal principe set since ancient times by law to provide 
> extra pressure to prove the a party is guilty. Its called "proof beyond 
> reasonable doubt" and is  a very important legal principle. 
> 
> Outside that, say I submited a document as a defense lawyer that is edited or 
> changed in some way , its fraud and especially fraud against the court is 
> even more punished. If a witeness , exaggerates , bends the truth and 
> especially if he or she lies, its fraud and the court can send him straigh to 
> jail with his lawyer.
> 
> Apple certainly does not do what you.
>  
> Actually Apple goes to great lenghts proving its claims , usually when Apple 
> says "iPhone has a battery of 10 hours" you will see an asterisk that will 
> point you to small letters in the bottom of the page that says exactly under 
> which conditions 10 hours can be achieved. 
> 
> On the other hand its use of words like "magical" is not of objective value 
> and by no means can misled or tell a lie because well, magic does not exist. 
> The law assumes the a person has at least average intelligence and knowledge 
> (exceptions of course people with mental disablities).  Most of the words 
> that Apple uses in the ads that could be considered lies or bend truth are 
> purely subjective terms. 
> 
> https://www.apple.com/iphone/
> 
> "Your face is now your password. Face ID is a secure and private new way to 
> unlock, authenticate, and pay."
> 
> Say some experts come forward and prove that Apple's technology is not safe 
> and especially if they prove that Apple knew it was not safe when it launched 
> it, Apple is liable under law for fraud. 
> 
> There is of course a lot of illegal marketing out there, fraud after all is 
> according to my experience the most common offenses that I have came accross 
> in my 10 years carrier as a lawyer , but I can assure you just it may happen 
> quite often does not make it any less illegal. You going to be shocked how 
> many illegal things happens on the internet and the law's complexity and 
> sophistication in providing protection against those things.
> 
> Of course I am not saying that someone is going to bother sue you tommorow, 
> as its highly unlikely that someone will take your posts seriously as they 
> are dominated by exaggerations and I have told you so many times in the past. 
> But that does not mean he cannot. 
> 
> Maybe USA law is more relaxed, because it not the most respected legal 
> system, as USA has a notorious bad record with human right and consumer 
> protection. But none the less I can promise you in Europe, what you do is not 
> legal and there are special legislation to protect consumers for these 
> scenarios.

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Andrew Glynn]

Here’s a list of the articles @ https://medium.com/@dasein42/latest, in case 
any catch your eye:

Latest
Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 14
“Dynamics Trumps Semantics”: Why Java is Easy to Learn, but Difficult to be 
Good at.

Read more…


Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 8
IoT Initiative — “little brother”

The core notion behind “little brother” is to overcome the inevitable lag 
between the increase in…
Read more…


Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 7
Software Developer Tooling: Then and Now

While my criticisms of current tooling for development are often met with an 
attitude of…
Read more…

6

Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 5

The Inverted Ambiguity of the Post-Modern Public, or Not
Read more…


Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 5
Someone Was Asking About Devops …

Someone I know was asking me about devops the other day, particularly the 
number and variety of…
Read more…

5

Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 5
Reality and the ‘Simple’ True, or the True-in-Itself, or the Truth

Read more…


Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 5
What is Intended by the term “Object-Oriented”?

Read more…

1
1 response
Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 4
Pharo Smalltalk as a DSL Without a DSL

If anyone has written a DSL in Eclipse, for example, simply the base projects 
Eclipse…
Read more…

22

Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 4

Tooling: Design of Meta and Underlying Rationale
Read more…


Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 2

How the Results of Disruption Changes the Discussion Between Aficionados of 
Specific Languages and Environments
Read more…


Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 2
Disrupted Software the Disrupted Software Industry Uses to Build Disruptive 
Software
Read more…


Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 2
Software is Virtual; the Virtual is Disruptive; Software Disrupts the 
Development of Software
Read more…


Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Nov 2
Three Comments from a Conversation on a Mailing List
Read more…

10

Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Oct 28
Reasons … and Reasons , How the Software Industry Turns its Issues into 
Subscriptions

Read more…

12

Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Oct 19
A Commentary On Three Quotes From “Working on the Go Team at Google”
(https://medium.com/@ljrudberg/working-on-the-go-team-at-google-917b2c8d35ff)
“First, a little bit about myself: I am 23 years old, less than two years out 
of my undergrad degree at UW…
Read more…

1 response
Go to the profile of Andrew Glynn
Andrew Glynn
Oct 11
Building-With Versus Building-On:
Improving Software Development Incrementally
Three articles and a doctoral thesis that I came across or had pointed out to 
me recently deal with the state of the software industry from different angles. 
However different they are, they do relate, and by putting them…


From: Dimitris Chloupis
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 5:10 AM
To: Any question about pharo is welcome
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort


First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about
this.

If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves exaggeration
and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.

This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you think
Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.

So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'm
trying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I have
to exaggerate, I will do so.

Actually there is a guy that I know that he actually cares

very much

he is called 

"Mr Law"

When a marketing , bends the truth and especially when it lies under UK, Greek  
and European Law is called "fraud" and it punishable under crimininal (jail 
time) and civil (compensation for damaged cause by fraudalent marketing) law. 
The penalties can be extemely severe if the fraud caused a substantial amount 
of damage in some way.

Under those legal systems I have studied (I am a lawyer) the only case that 
someone is allowed to lie is when he defiends himself. If you ever wondered how 
its possible lawyers to lie , now you know. Lying and bending the truth in this 
case is a legal principe set since ancient times by law to provide extra 
pressure to prove the a party is guilty. Its called "proof beyond reasonable 
doubt" and is  a very important legal principle. 

Outside that, say I submited a document as a defense lawyer that is edited or 
changed in some way , its fraud and especially fraud against the court is even 
more punished. If a witeness , exaggerates , bends t

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Andrew Glynn]

I have written a few articles on Medium, largely about the state of the 
software industry as a whole, the way disruptive software disrupts its own 
industry.  However most of the articles mention Smalltalk and Pharo in 
particular as having a good blend of being able to build-on what’s been done, 
while not standing still itself.

Some of the less journalistic pieces are also on academia.edu.

https://medium.com/@dasein42

cheers
Andrew Glynn

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Dimitris Chloupis
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 5:10 AM
To: Any question about pharo is welcome
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort


First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about
this.

If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves exaggeration
and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.

This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you think
Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.

So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'm
trying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I have
to exaggerate, I will do so.

Actually there is a guy that I know that he actually cares

very much

he is called 

"Mr Law"

When a marketing , bends the truth and especially when it lies under UK, Greek  
and European Law is called "fraud" and it punishable under crimininal (jail 
time) and civil (compensation for damaged cause by fraudalent marketing) law. 
The penalties can be extemely severe if the fraud caused a substantial amount 
of damage in some way.

Under those legal systems I have studied (I am a lawyer) the only case that 
someone is allowed to lie is when he defiends himself. If you ever wondered how 
its possible lawyers to lie , now you know. Lying and bending the truth in this 
case is a legal principe set since ancient times by law to provide extra 
pressure to prove the a party is guilty. Its called "proof beyond reasonable 
doubt" and is  a very important legal principle. 

Outside that, say I submited a document as a defense lawyer that is edited or 
changed in some way , its fraud and especially fraud against the court is even 
more punished. If a witeness , exaggerates , bends the truth and especially if 
he or she lies, its fraud and the court can send him straigh to jail with his 
lawyer.

Apple certainly does not do what you.
 
Actually Apple goes to great lenghts proving its claims , usually when Apple 
says "iPhone has a battery of 10 hours" you will see an asterisk that will 
point you to small letters in the bottom of the page that says exactly under 
which conditions 10 hours can be achieved. 

On the other hand its use of words like "magical" is not of objective value and 
by no means can misled or tell a lie because well, magic does not exist. The 
law assumes the a person has at least average intelligence and knowledge 
(exceptions of course people with mental disablities).  Most of the words that 
Apple uses in the ads that could be considered lies or bend truth are purely 
subjective terms. 

https://www.apple.com/iphone/

"Your face is now your password. Face ID is a secure and private new way to 
unlock, authenticate, and pay."

Say some experts come forward and prove that Apple's technology is not safe and 
especially if they prove that Apple knew it was not safe when it launched it, 
Apple is liable under law for fraud. 

There is of course a lot of illegal marketing out there, fraud after all is 
according to my experience the most common offenses that I have came accross in 
my 10 years carrier as a lawyer , but I can assure you just it may happen quite 
often does not make it any less illegal. You going to be shocked how many 
illegal things happens on the internet and the law's complexity and 
sophistication in providing protection against those things.

Of course I am not saying that someone is going to bother sue you tommorow, as 
its highly unlikely that someone will take your posts seriously as they are 
dominated by exaggerations and I have told you so many times in the past. But 
that does not mean he cannot. 

Maybe USA law is more relaxed, because it not the most respected legal system, 
as USA has a notorious bad record with human right and consumer protection. But 
none the less I can promise you in Europe, what you do is not legal and there 
are special legislation to protect consumers for these scenarios.

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Andrew Glynn]

It is, according to various citations  (CiteSeer) etc., being used to fight 
measles.  Maybe not as flashy, but at least it’s true.

Andrew Glynn

From: Dimitris Chloupis
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 5:10 AM
To: Any question about pharo is welcome
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort


First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about
this.

If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves exaggeration
and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.

This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you think
Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.

So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'm
trying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I have
to exaggerate, I will do so.

Actually there is a guy that I know that he actually cares

very much

he is called 

"Mr Law"

When a marketing , bends the truth and especially when it lies under UK, Greek  
and European Law is called "fraud" and it punishable under crimininal (jail 
time) and civil (compensation for damaged cause by fraudalent marketing) law. 
The penalties can be extemely severe if the fraud caused a substantial amount 
of damage in some way.

Under those legal systems I have studied (I am a lawyer) the only case that 
someone is allowed to lie is when he defiends himself. If you ever wondered how 
its possible lawyers to lie , now you know. Lying and bending the truth in this 
case is a legal principe set since ancient times by law to provide extra 
pressure to prove the a party is guilty. Its called "proof beyond reasonable 
doubt" and is  a very important legal principle. 

Outside that, say I submited a document as a defense lawyer that is edited or 
changed in some way , its fraud and especially fraud against the court is even 
more punished. If a witeness , exaggerates , bends the truth and especially if 
he or she lies, its fraud and the court can send him straigh to jail with his 
lawyer.

Apple certainly does not do what you.
 
Actually Apple goes to great lenghts proving its claims , usually when Apple 
says "iPhone has a battery of 10 hours" you will see an asterisk that will 
point you to small letters in the bottom of the page that says exactly under 
which conditions 10 hours can be achieved. 

On the other hand its use of words like "magical" is not of objective value and 
by no means can misled or tell a lie because well, magic does not exist. The 
law assumes the a person has at least average intelligence and knowledge 
(exceptions of course people with mental disablities).  Most of the words that 
Apple uses in the ads that could be considered lies or bend truth are purely 
subjective terms. 

https://www.apple.com/iphone/

"Your face is now your password. Face ID is a secure and private new way to 
unlock, authenticate, and pay."

Say some experts come forward and prove that Apple's technology is not safe and 
especially if they prove that Apple knew it was not safe when it launched it, 
Apple is liable under law for fraud. 

There is of course a lot of illegal marketing out there, fraud after all is 
according to my experience the most common offenses that I have came accross in 
my 10 years carrier as a lawyer , but I can assure you just it may happen quite 
often does not make it any less illegal. You going to be shocked how many 
illegal things happens on the internet and the law's complexity and 
sophistication in providing protection against those things.

Of course I am not saying that someone is going to bother sue you tommorow, as 
its highly unlikely that someone will take your posts seriously as they are 
dominated by exaggerations and I have told you so many times in the past. But 
that does not mean he cannot. 

Maybe USA law is more relaxed, because it not the most respected legal system, 
as USA has a notorious bad record with human right and consumer protection. But 
none the less I can promise you in Europe, what you do is not legal and there 
are special legislation to protect consumers for these scenarios.

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

"There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is
not being talked about."
Oscar Wilde

Smalltalk was on the verge of being forgotten. Now, people talk about it.
Some may be turned off, I have no doubt. Some are curious; some are
intrigued, enough to actually try Pharo (Smalltalk). How do I know this?

Because they've told me directly! They've told me that they had never heard
of Smalltalk (speaking to Norbert's point), and that they will take a
serious look at it.

Am I doing something wrong? Maybe, but the results would suggest otherwise.
Let's suppose I am doing something wrong. What can I do about it? This is my
style of writing; it reflects who I am, like it or not. Am I supposed to
change who I am?

Frankly, I cannot change my style. It's just not gonna happen. The only
alternative is for me to stop doing what I'm doing.

Well, may I should, anyway. It's been a long campaign and I'm very tired.
Marketing Smalltalk is bloody hard work. Perhaps one of you can take over?



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Dimitris Chloupis]

>
>
> First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
> my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about
> this.
>
> If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves
> exaggeration
> and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
> marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.
>
> This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you think
> Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.
>
> So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'm
> trying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I have
> to exaggerate, I will do so.
>

Actually there is a guy that I know that he actually cares

very much

he is called

"Mr Law"

When a marketing , bends the truth and especially when it lies under UK,
Greek  and European Law is called "fraud" and it punishable under
crimininal (jail time) and civil (compensation for damaged cause by
fraudalent marketing) law. The penalties can be extemely severe if the
fraud caused a substantial amount of damage in some way.

Under those legal systems I have studied (I am a lawyer) the only case that
someone is allowed to lie is when he defiends himself. If you ever wondered
how its possible lawyers to lie , now you know. Lying and bending the truth
in this case is a legal principe set since ancient times by law to provide
extra pressure to prove the a party is guilty. Its called "proof beyond
reasonable doubt" and is  a very important legal principle.

Outside that, say I submited a document as a defense lawyer that is edited
or changed in some way , its fraud and especially fraud against the court
is even more punished. If a witeness , exaggerates , bends the truth and
especially if he or she lies, its fraud and the court can send him straigh
to jail with his lawyer.

Apple certainly does not do what you.

Actually Apple goes to great lenghts proving its claims , usually when
Apple says "iPhone has a battery of 10 hours" you will see an asterisk that
will point you to small letters in the bottom of the page that says exactly
under which conditions 10 hours can be achieved.

On the other hand its use of words like "magical" is not of objective value
and by no means can misled or tell a lie because well, magic does not
exist. The law assumes the a person has at least average intelligence and
knowledge (exceptions of course people with mental disablities).  Most of
the words that Apple uses in the ads that could be considered lies or bend
truth are purely subjective terms.

https://www.apple.com/iphone/

"Your face is now your password. Face ID is a secure and private new way to
unlock, authenticate, and pay."

Say some experts come forward and prove that Apple's technology is not safe
and especially if they prove that Apple knew it was not safe when it
launched it, Apple is liable under law for fraud.

There is of course a lot of illegal marketing out there, fraud after all is
according to my experience the most common offenses that I have came
accross in my 10 years carrier as a lawyer , but I can assure you just it
may happen quite often does not make it any less illegal. You going to be
shocked how many illegal things happens on the internet and the law's
complexity and sophistication in providing protection against those things.

Of course I am not saying that someone is going to bother sue you tommorow,
as its highly unlikely that someone will take your posts seriously as they
are dominated by exaggerations and I have told you so many times in the
past. But that does not mean he cannot.

Maybe USA law is more relaxed, because it not the most respected legal
system, as USA has a notorious bad record with human right and consumer
protection. But none the less I can promise you in Europe, what you do is
not legal and there are special legislation to protect consumers for these
scenarios.

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Pavel Krivanek]

Yes, people are emotional entities and good marketing should work with
that, but it needs to be done carefully. I'll give you three examples:

1) Imagine you are an Apple user who bought a very expensive iPhone X one
week ago, you spent next hundreds of dollars on applications you bought
over last decade and someone will want to try to tell you that you should
switch to a new different super-cool mobile platform. He will start with
assertions that Apple users are sheeps that use overpriced crap, then he
will argue that his mobile platform is great because it is actually very
old (maybe older than you), it was used a lot in times when this industry
was in nappies and big companies of that time that you always considered to
be dinosaurs used them. Then he will provide some vague numbers that should
prove that users of his platform are more productive (without any real
example of why it is like that), that the users of this platform like it
and in the end he will tell you that someone used that phones to call
ambulance and saved some lives.

People are emotional and they like to feel smart. Would you have positive
feeling about this new platform?

Ask yourself what would convince you in shoes of such Apple user. Probably
the first think you want to hear is that your current applications will
work on the new platform. That you will not need to learn much, that it has
all the features of the Apple software and that it solves this and this
particular issue you have. And that you will save money. If you are the
person who wants to sell the new phone and you know that you cannot tell
that because it is not truth, than you need to be really nice and positive
to make the people at least consider trying your phone when they will
change it.

2) Imagine that you are a car driver that uses it for daily commuting and
some will come and tell you that you should use a bicycle instead of it.
That bicycles that people stopped to use in half of the last century and
switched to cars. You think about them that they are obsolete, something
that only children and poor or strange people use, it is dangerous to drive
them in the traffic, you need to breath the polluted air, hear all the
traffic noise, you are sweating and you are not covered from the rain, cold
or hot sun.

Then you probably do now want to hear that all the dangers, polluted air,
noise and so on are not in fact disadvantages of bicycles but disadvantages
of cars. You need to listen possitive arguments
.
3) Imagine you are a Pharo user and some wants you to switch to Self that
is superior to Smalltalk in many areas you mention in your articles. What
he would need to do to convince you?


People in IT have in general very negativistic approach. When they see a
new technology they are trying to find reasons why to do not invest into
learning of it. So rather than looking at advantages they will check all
disadvantages twice. Some of them feel good and smart if they find some
mistake in the articles so totry to lie to them can be very
counterproductive.

The interview with Stef was a great way how to promote Pharo. Look at the
rating and comments to your last article: https://www.reddit
.com/r/programming/comments/7d9uz2/why_pharo
_might_be_the_future_of_software/

If it is not the prove for you that you are doing something wrong then
continue. But then be not surprised that even the Smalltalkers will
downvolt your
writings.

Cheers,
-- Pavel










2017-11-18 4:55 GMT+01:00 horrido :

> I appreciate all the feedback, even the negative comments. Let me address
> some of them...
>
> First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
> my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about
> this.
>
> If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves
> exaggeration
> and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
> marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.
>
> This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you think
> Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.
>
> So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'm
> trying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I have
> to exaggerate, I will do so.
>
> Has everybody heard of Smalltalk? Of course not. And it doesn't matter. I'm
> taking /literary licence/. As a writer and a marketer, I am allowed to do
> this.
>
> Second, the article hasn't been published yet that pleases everybody. I
> accept that some people may not like what I've written, and that's
> perfectly
> fine.
>
> What's not perfectly fine is if the majority of readers are turned off by
> my
> article. I do not believe this is the case. I have published literally
> hundreds of Smalltalk articles over the past three years, most of them on
> Medium, and I've tracked responses and viewership. As far as I can tell,
> these articles have been generally 

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Hans N. Beck]

Hi,

my personal opinion to this topic is: I’m say thanks to everyone who is 
enganged in Pharo and better ways of thinking and writing software. That‘s 
first. Yes we are living in a time where words are analysed, interpreted and 
instrumenatlized for own purposes. People seems to look more to what they can 
take out from a wording for their own purpose than trying to understand what 
the author wanted to say. The other thing is, not everyone is a educated writer 
from the beginning. So helping together to „spread the word“ in a manner which 
has the best chances to be understand right, help together to become better 
writer and communicater is my suggestion. Statements like „stop writing“ 
does‘nt help, I think.

Having said this  and related to the basic Statements below, I agree much with 
Ben.

Cheers

Hans

Gesendet von Mail für Windows 10

Von: Ben Coman
Gesendet: Samstag, 18. November 2017 07:13
An: Any question about pharo is welcome
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

I'm not going to ask you to stop writing.  I think its difficult to get the 
balance right, 
and I think you are improving every time. But there are some points to 
consider...

On 18 November 2017 at 11:55, horrido <horrido.hobb...@gmail.com> wrote:
I appreciate all the feedback, even the negative comments. Let me address
some of them...

First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about
this.

If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves exaggeration
and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.

This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you think
Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.

That is Apple and Microsoft talking about *themselves* to the present the image 
*they* want.
But you discuss the work of other people, which impacts their self-image,
and it behooves you to consider that impact on them.

 

So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'm
trying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I have
to exaggerate, I will do so.

Case in point.

 

Has everybody heard of Smalltalk? Of course not. And it doesn't matter. I'm
taking /literary licence/. As a writer and a marketer, I am allowed to do
this.

It could be easy for your audience to mistake that you represent Pharo.
So the people whose work you write about can feel impacted by any exaggeration 
you use.

A strategy could be to distinguish yourself as an enthusiastic user 
rather than a core developer, which would likely improve the authenticity for 
both parties.

Consider that in a world where we a constantly marketed to,
the sensitivity of your audience to Signals & Noise in your message...
http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/homesteading/ar01s11.html

 

Second, the article hasn't been published yet that pleases everybody. I
accept that some people may not like what I've written, and that's perfectly
fine.

What's not perfectly fine is if the majority of readers are turned off by my
article. I do not believe this is the case. I have published literally
hundreds of Smalltalk articles over the past three years, most of them on
Medium, and I've tracked responses and viewership. As far as I can tell,
these articles have been generally well-received. I have something of a fan
base!

Something else that I've been told: marketing to programmers will not work
because they are too smart for that. What a load of bullcrap! Programmers
are human beings, and all human beings are susceptible to marketing. My
Smalltalk campaign over the past three years have proven that it works.

So why should I stop?

Third,...

> You will not convince people to use Pharo by spitting on everything else.

What am I spitting on? I claim that the way everybody has been doing
programming, ie, with file-based languages, has not been ideal for
productivity. That's not insulting. That's just the truth.

Isn't that why we use Pharo (Smalltalk)? For productivity reasons?

General statements about functionality are not so problematic.  
Its more when being specific about "Pharo is better than languages X and Y" 
which may create a barrier to for people that love X or Y from listening to 
your message.

HTH
cheers -ben



---
Diese E-Mail wurde von AVG auf Viren geprüft.
http://www.avg.com

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Ben Coman]

I'm not going to ask you to stop writing.  I think its difficult to get the
balance right,
and I think you are improving every time. But there are some points to
consider...

On 18 November 2017 at 11:55, horrido  wrote:

> I appreciate all the feedback, even the negative comments. Let me address
> some of them...
>
> First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
> my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about
> this.
>
> If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves
> exaggeration
> and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
> marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.
>
> This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you think
> Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.
>

That is Apple and Microsoft talking about *themselves* to the present the
image *they* want.
But you discuss the work of other people, which impacts their self-image,
and it behooves you to consider that impact on them.



>
> So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'm
> trying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I have
> to exaggerate, I will do so.
>

Case in point.



>
> Has everybody heard of Smalltalk? Of course not. And it doesn't matter. I'm
> taking /literary licence/. As a writer and a marketer, I am allowed to do
> this.
>

It could be easy for your audience to mistake that you represent Pharo.
So the people whose work you write about can feel impacted by any
exaggeration you use.

A strategy could be to distinguish yourself as an enthusiastic user
rather than a core developer, which would likely improve the authenticity
for both parties.

Consider that in a world where we a constantly marketed to,
the sensitivity of your audience to Signals & Noise in your message...
http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/homesteading/ar01s11.html



>
> Second, the article hasn't been published yet that pleases everybody. I
> accept that some people may not like what I've written, and that's
> perfectly
> fine.
>
> What's not perfectly fine is if the majority of readers are turned off by
> my
> article. I do not believe this is the case. I have published literally
> hundreds of Smalltalk articles over the past three years, most of them on
> Medium, and I've tracked responses and viewership. As far as I can tell,
> these articles have been generally well-received. I have something of a fan
> base!
>
> Something else that I've been told: marketing to programmers will not work
> because they are too smart for that. What a load of bullcrap! Programmers
> are human beings, and all human beings are susceptible to marketing. My
> Smalltalk campaign over the past three years have proven that it works.
>
> So why should I stop?
>
> Third,...
>
> > You will not convince people to use Pharo by spitting on everything else.
>
> What am I spitting on? I claim that the way everybody has been doing
> programming, ie, with file-based languages, has not been ideal for
> productivity. That's not insulting. That's just the truth.
>
> Isn't that why we use Pharo (Smalltalk)? For productivity reasons?
>

General statements about functionality are not so problematic.
Its more when being specific about "Pharo is better than languages X and Y"
which may create a barrier to for people that love X or Y from listening to
your message.

HTH
cheers -ben

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[horrido]

I appreciate all the feedback, even the negative comments. Let me address
some of them...

First of all, you need to understand that this article, like nearly all of
my other articles, is about /marketing/. I've never made any bones about
this.

If you know anything about marketing, you know that it involves exaggeration
and hyperbole. It sometimes involves bending the truth. The point of
marketing is to persuade on an emotional level, not a logical one.

This is exactly what companies like Apple and Microsoft do. If you think
Apple ads tell the absolute truth, then you are terribly naive.

So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'm
trying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I have
to exaggerate, I will do so.

Has everybody heard of Smalltalk? Of course not. And it doesn't matter. I'm
taking /literary licence/. As a writer and a marketer, I am allowed to do
this.

Second, the article hasn't been published yet that pleases everybody. I
accept that some people may not like what I've written, and that's perfectly
fine.

What's not perfectly fine is if the majority of readers are turned off by my
article. I do not believe this is the case. I have published literally
hundreds of Smalltalk articles over the past three years, most of them on
Medium, and I've tracked responses and viewership. As far as I can tell,
these articles have been generally well-received. I have something of a fan
base!

Something else that I've been told: marketing to programmers will not work
because they are too smart for that. What a load of bullcrap! Programmers
are human beings, and all human beings are susceptible to marketing. My
Smalltalk campaign over the past three years have proven that it works.

So why should I stop?

Third,...

> You will not convince people to use Pharo by spitting on everything else.

What am I spitting on? I claim that the way everybody has been doing
programming, ie, with file-based languages, has not been ideal for
productivity. That's not insulting. That's just the truth.

Isn't that why we use Pharo (Smalltalk)? For productivity reasons?

> But even more important is that I don't understand why people always talk
> about the future when the only thing they do is telling the past.

The future is always based on the past. There is no future if you ignore the
past (and the present).

Again, the reason for bringing up BYTE magazine is to move people. And it
seems to work.

Telling people about how Smalltalk was once a high flyer in the 1990s and
that IBM chose Smalltalk as the centrepiece of their VisualAge enterprise
initiative to replace COBOL also works.

Giving this information to people will offer some comfort and confidence
that choosing Pharo won't be a mistake.

If my marketing campaign is hurting Smalltalk and Pharo, you'll have to show
me the evidence. If you can, then I will stop. I am only here to serve you.




--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Norbert Hartl]

I just skimmed at it and found that piece

Back to the Future

Everybody has heard of Smalltalk. This venerable programming language has had a 
long and illustrious history 
.
 It was the first programming language to popularize object-oriented 
programming (or OOP). Remember the famous August 1981 BYTE cover?

Just to add my personal statistics. I would say that about 2% of all developers 
I talk to know that there is programming language called Smalltalk. And 
somewhat like 8% of all are older than that mentioned magazine. So to me that 
sounds rather strange. 
But even more important is that I don't understand why people always talk about 
the future when the only thing they do is telling the past.

I think we are better than this.

Norbert

> Am 16.11.2017 um 05:13 schrieb horrido :
> 
> Why Pharo Might be the Future of Software Development
>   
> 
> Spread the word.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Ben Coman]

I liked it. Actually I thought it was Richard's most balanced piece to date
- except the poke in the cl paragraph.  Something softer like "Pharo might
not be right for you, but its worth taking a look at"  would be better.

And for spreading the word, perhaps controversy is better than being
ignored - hard to know though.
Duty calls... https://xkcd.com/386/


btw, in the linked study interesting to see that Excel has even better
function point efficiency than Smalltalk - which reminds me, Excel provides
a workable "Image" analogy. The data shares the same file as the code.


cheers -ben

On 16 November 2017 at 17:07, Pavel Krivanek 
wrote:

> Please, please, please, stop to write such kind of articles. You are doing
> a really bad service to us. You can help to Pharo in many other ways. You
> will not convince people to use Pharo by spitting on everything else.
> One fixed typo has incomparably bigger value than blogpost like this.
>
> -- Pavel
>
> 2017-11-16 5:13 GMT+01:00 horrido :
>
>> Why Pharo Might be the Future of Software Development
>> 
>>
>> Spread the word.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Serge Stinckwich]

And can you remove this sentence:

​​
Pharo is being used to fight Ebola : http://ummisco.github.io/kendrick/

​You cite my research work about KENDRICK, a domain-specific language built
in order to analyze epidemiological models.
Thank you for the link, but we never fight Ebola ...
We only participate to a ​hackathon about Ebola in 2014 and we implement
some basic Ebola mathematical models in KENDRICK at that time. We never
have any impact on Ebola unfortunately.

​Don't spread false informations.
Thank you.​


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:07 AM, Pavel Krivanek 
wrote:
>
> Please, please, please, stop to write such kind of articles. You are
doing a really bad service to us. You can help to Pharo in many other ways.
You will not convince people to use Pharo by spitting on everything else.
> One fixed typo has incomparably bigger value than blogpost like this.
>
> -- Pavel
>
> 2017-11-16 5:13 GMT+01:00 horrido :
>>
>> Why Pharo Might be the Future of Software Development
>> 
>>
>> Spread the word.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>



--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC/UY1)
"Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for
machines to execute."
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Re: [Pharo-users] New Pharo article at The Cohort

[Pavel Krivanek]

Please, please, please, stop to write such kind of articles. You are doing
a really bad service to us. You can help to Pharo in many other ways. You
will not convince people to use Pharo by spitting on everything else.
One fixed typo has incomparably bigger value than blogpost like this.

-- Pavel

2017-11-16 5:13 GMT+01:00 horrido :

> Why Pharo Might be the Future of Software Development
> 
>
> Spread the word.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>