Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
Unfortunately, we don't have the manpower to maintain such a beast, are there many people using glorp in production? With PostgresV2? I am making a living out of two projects using GLORP+PostgresV2 since almost a year. So me, and my company, depends on it. I'd join an community driven ORM Task Force for Pharo. IMHO merging VW's and Pharo's version won't be an easy quest. While debugging GLORP I learnt a few things about its internals, and I think other users share the same learning process. So I am willing to spend some time on this. :) At annecy 2013 I asked nail ross to organize a glorp tutorial and I gathered some text. what would be good is to have some chapters on Glorp (to complement the reddit.st chapter of sven. Getting a nice doc is a way to get more people and more interest. I can look for the files I have around. I cannot work on something I never used.
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
Many of them are here, AFAIR they were Lorenzano, Polito, Peck. Paid by ESUG because we already wre convinced that databse support is important. Even with its outdated condition, ORM hasn't changed much in the past years, so current GLORP fits most of the needs, it's proven, it's tested and it's reliable. Where is the best place to ask about Glorp by the way? I wonder the same. The official discussion group is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/glorp-group But it is not very active. So IMHO, for Pharo use this is the best place, and for VisualWorks its own mailing list. Regards! Esteban.
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 6:53 AM, François Stephany tulipe.mouta...@gmail.com wrote: I have no idea how complicated this can be. I'm a bit reluctant to dive into this if we are only 2-3 people to use Glorp in Pharo. Guillermo, Mariano, what was the process when you imported Glorp in the first place? How did you keep up with Glorp latest changes (From what I see in Store, development is not too active)? It was a bit complicated. First off, Guille exported all Glorp packages from stone using the file out format. These fileout would no import directly into Pharo as I remember, some human or script changes were needed to that these file out could be imported in Pharo. These code was ported under the package Glorp inside our repo. Then the second step was to apply all our changes to Glorp since our changes are not integrated in main stone repostories. These changes are PharoDatabaseAccessor, DatabaseDriver, some changes to Login class and a few other things AFAIK. The third part, was either our special subclass of DatabaseDriver, for either native postgres driver or dbx driver. All that together became GlorpDBX. From which glorp version we did that port to Pharo, I don't remember and I cannot seem to find it in my old mails. If someone wants to go through these again, then I think you should spend the time so that our changes are integrated in main trunk. Otherwise, future ports will again be a pain. Cheers, On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Stephan Eggermont step...@stack.nl wrote: Sven wrote: Porting something cross platform is a huge amount of work, I think most of it was basically done by hand. This creates a huge maintenance problem of course. The same is true for Xtreams. Seaside seems to be able to manage this problem by being extremely careful. We now have the infrastructure in place (CI) that supports a much better approach. We could use a vw image to download the current version from the public store and generate the platform-independent mczs from there. That of course requires changes to the VW code base to create and use platform classes. That is similar to what we did in the other direction with Parasol, what Roassal does and Seaside. If we make the (namespace) transformations explicit, we should be able to sync in two directions. Stephan -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
On Thu, Sep 04, 2014 at 03:10:13PM +0200, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: Now, our version was ported from (AFAIR) 7.1 and extended to allow our drivers. Probably next time best path of porting is to make a bridge between VW driver API and ours (but I didn’t estimated the amount of effort). Seeing that Sven's prebuilt Reddit image has Glorp and PostgresV2, today I set about to integrate NBSQLite3 into it. After spending an afternoon mucking around with the dialect and database interfaces, I think it doesn't look *too* challenging to add new drivers. With a small class, I hooked Glorp up with NBSQLite3 and just under half of the 887 tests passed on the first run. Probably the majority of these tests have nothing to do with talking to actual databases! :-) But for sure an SQLite database was created and worked on by the tests. I did bypass one level of indirection used with PostgresV2. Let's see whether the NBSQLite3 interface needs this additional indirection eventually. Will post again when I go somewhere with this. Pierce
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
Esteban, I disagree ;-) Am 04.09.14 um 17:09 schrieb Esteban A. Maringolo: 2014-09-04 11:18 GMT-03:00 François Stephany tulipe.mouta...@gmail.com: Where is the best place to ask about Glorp by the way? I wonder the same. The official discussion group is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/glorp-group But it is not very active. So IMHO, for Pharo use this is the best place, and for VisualWorks its own mailing list. I am a Glorp user, but not on Pharo, and I am very much interested in problems people might find or - more interestingly - solve with Glorp. From my experience with using Glorp on VA Smalltalk, it is sometimes very hard to tell if you have a general Glorp problem or some porting error in front of you. So I would say the primary group for Glorp questions should be the Glorp google group (see your link above). Another argument: if we followed your advice for every library/tool/framework, wouldn't this pollute the Pharo Mailing list? Joachim -- --- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuc...@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
Sven wrote: Porting something cross platform is a huge amount of work, I think most of it was basically done by hand. This creates a huge maintenance problem of course. The same is true for Xtreams. Seaside seems to be able to manage this problem by being extremely careful. We now have the infrastructure in place (CI) that supports a much better approach. We could use a vw image to download the current version from the public store and generate the platform-independent mczs from there. That of course requires changes to the VW code base to create and use platform classes. That is similar to what we did in the other direction with Parasol, what Roassal does and Seaside. If we make the (namespace) transformations explicit, we should be able to sync in two directions. Stephan
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
I have no idea how complicated this can be. I'm a bit reluctant to dive into this if we are only 2-3 people to use Glorp in Pharo. Guillermo, Mariano, what was the process when you imported Glorp in the first place? How did you keep up with Glorp latest changes (From what I see in Store, development is not too active)? On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Stephan Eggermont step...@stack.nl wrote: Sven wrote: Porting something cross platform is a huge amount of work, I think most of it was basically done by hand. This creates a huge maintenance problem of course. The same is true for Xtreams. Seaside seems to be able to manage this problem by being extremely careful. We now have the infrastructure in place (CI) that supports a much better approach. We could use a vw image to download the current version from the public store and generate the platform-independent mczs from there. That of course requires changes to the VW code base to create and use platform classes. That is similar to what we did in the other direction with Parasol, what Roassal does and Seaside. If we make the (namespace) transformations explicit, we should be able to sync in two directions. Stephan
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
Francois wrote: I have no idea how complicated this can be. I'm a bit reluctant to dive into this if we are only 2-3 people to use Glorp in Pharo. It would be a worthwhile initiative because it would make collaboration much easier for other projects too. I'm interested in looking into this. I have the impression there are many more users of Glorp who are very silent on the list (I know some) Stephan
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
Hi, 2014-09-05 3:53 GMT-03:00 jtuc...@objektfabrik.de jtuc...@objektfabrik.de: Esteban, I disagree ;-) Am 04.09.14 um 17:09 schrieb Esteban A. Maringolo: 2014-09-04 11:18 GMT-03:00 François Stephany tulipe.mouta...@gmail.com: Where is the best place to ask about Glorp by the way? I wonder the same. The official discussion group is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/glorp-group But it is not very active. So IMHO, for Pharo use this is the best place, and for VisualWorks its own mailing list. I am a Glorp user, but not on Pharo, and I am very much interested in problems people might find or - more interestingly - solve with Glorp. I forgot about you! even when I follow your blog. You're the only person/project I know uses Glorp in VA. From my experience with using Glorp on VA Smalltalk, it is sometimes very hard to tell if you have a general Glorp problem or some porting error in front of you. Test coverage is pretty good, but I've been bitten by what you mention. That's how I realized the port I'm using is outdated. So I would say the primary group for Glorp questions should be the Glorp google group (see your link above). Another argument: if we followed your advice for every library/tool/framework, wouldn't this pollute the Pharo Mailing list? I know, but I really don't know who reads Glorp mailing list, and particularly *how often*. Francois asked about GLORP here and got a bunch of responses in a couple of hours, had he asked the same in Glorp's mailing list and probably would have got a please ask in the Pharo mailing list about its port response. And this is no critic to Alan nor anybody there, it's just a matter of how active a mailing list is and how foreign Pharo's version is, they simply don't know what Pharo has. Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
Esteban, Am 05.09.14 um 15:36 schrieb Esteban A. Maringolo: Hi, 2014-09-05 3:53 GMT-03:00 jtuc...@objektfabrik.de jtuc...@objektfabrik.de: Esteban, I disagree ;-) Am 04.09.14 um 17:09 schrieb Esteban A. Maringolo: 2014-09-04 11:18 GMT-03:00 François Stephany tulipe.mouta...@gmail.com: Where is the best place to ask about Glorp by the way? I wonder the same. The official discussion group is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/glorp-group But it is not very active. So IMHO, for Pharo use this is the best place, and for VisualWorks its own mailing list. I am a Glorp user, but not on Pharo, and I am very much interested in problems people might find or - more interestingly - solve with Glorp. I forgot about you! even when I follow your blog. You're the only person/project I know uses Glorp in VA. so assuming I am the only Glorp user on VA (I am not, btw.), your argument would mean I should rather ask on the VA mailing list where I will be even less likely to find answers, because there are no Glorp users there at all ;-) Not sure I like the idea ;-) And don't forget the VW(NC) users of Glorp. They might have problems with Glorp as well. From my experience with using Glorp on VA Smalltalk, it is sometimes very hard to tell if you have a general Glorp problem or some porting error in front of you. Test coverage is pretty good, but I've been bitten by what you mention. That's how I realized the port I'm using is outdated. So I would say the primary group for Glorp questions should be the Glorp google group (see your link above). Another argument: if we followed your advice for every library/tool/framework, wouldn't this pollute the Pharo Mailing list? I know, but I really don't know who reads Glorp mailing list, and particularly *how often*. Francois asked about GLORP here and got a bunch of responses in a couple of hours, had he asked the same in Glorp's mailing list and probably would have got a please ask in the Pharo mailing list about its port response. And this is no critic to Alan nor anybody there, it's just a matter of how active a mailing list is and how foreign Pharo's version is, they simply don't know what Pharo has. And, if I remember correctly, most answers on this list were of the kind that says I think I know someone who heard about somebody who once did a Glorp port to Pharo, but I think it is dated. Do we expect Alan or Niall or Tim to read the Pharo mailing list to answer Glorp questions? I am not sure they'll like the idea. BTW: I thought tha VAST version is also foreign, but these days the port on VAST is pretty current and the feeling is gone. So, as long as I am not sure if a problem is a Glorp bug or one of my port, I think the Glorp list is the right place for it. I'd rather get input from Pharo, VisualWorks and VAST users than none or the kind I just mentioned - I am glad that Maarten, Alan and you (and others) are on the Glorp list - and we all use different dialects! Joachim Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo -- --- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuc...@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
2014-09-04 9:35 GMT-03:00 François Stephany tulipe.mouta...@gmail.com: We are tempted to give Glorp a try. We've loaded version 1.7 from the configuration browser and the simple things we've tested so far seem to work fine with the PostgresV2 driver. What is the relation between the glorp we have with the VW version? Outdated, according to Alan Knight in response to a bug I reported. The truth is no one knows. Are the two merged often? As I understand it they kind of forked, because even though GLORP has its own multi-dialect layers, it still was too VW/PGSQL. The DBXTalk guys narrowed the gap, but still... Unfortunately, we don't have the manpower to maintain such a beast, are there many people using glorp in production? With PostgresV2? I am making a living out of two projects using GLORP+PostgresV2 since almost a year. So me, and my company, depends on it. I'd join an community driven ORM Task Force for Pharo. IMHO merging VW's and Pharo's version won't be an easy quest. While debugging GLORP I learnt a few things about its internals, and I think other users share the same learning process. So I am willing to spend some time on this. :) Do you use all the niceties (e.g., json type) from PostgreSQL? No, but the json and jsonb datatypes are of my interest, because it could allow me to embed objects, and have a mixed ORM/NoSQL persistence solution sharing a single, and reliable, (R)DBMS. Best regards, Esteban A. Maringolo
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
On 04 Sep 2014, at 15:01, Esteban A. Maringolo emaring...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-09-04 9:35 GMT-03:00 François Stephany tulipe.mouta...@gmail.com: We are tempted to give Glorp a try. We've loaded version 1.7 from the configuration browser and the simple things we've tested so far seem to work fine with the PostgresV2 driver. What is the relation between the glorp we have with the VW version? Outdated, according to Alan Knight in response to a bug I reported. The truth is no one knows. not entirely true. we know that is outdated :) Now, our version was ported from (AFAIR) 7.1 and extended to allow our drivers. Probably next time best path of porting is to make a bridge between VW driver API and ours (but I didn’t estimated the amount of effort). Are the two merged often? As I understand it they kind of forked, because even though GLORP has its own multi-dialect layers, it still was too VW/PGSQL. The DBXTalk guys narrowed the gap, but still… something like that, yeah :P Unfortunately, we don't have the manpower to maintain such a beast, are there many people using glorp in production? With PostgresV2? I am making a living out of two projects using GLORP+PostgresV2 since almost a year. So me, and my company, depends on it. I'd join an community driven ORM Task Force for Pharo. IMHO merging VW's and Pharo's version won't be an easy quest. While debugging GLORP I learnt a few things about its internals, and I think other users share the same learning process. So I am willing to spend some time on this. :) cool :) Esteban Do you use all the niceties (e.g., json type) from PostgreSQL? No, but the json and jsonb datatypes are of my interest, because it could allow me to embed objects, and have a mixed ORM/NoSQL persistence solution sharing a single, and reliable, (R)DBMS. Best regards, Esteban A. Maringolo
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
What is the relation between the glorp we have with the VW version? Outdated, according to Alan Knight in response to a bug I reported. The truth is no one knows. not entirely true. we know that is outdated :) Now, our version was ported from (AFAIR) 7.1 and extended to allow our drivers. Probably next time best path of porting is to make a bridge between VW driver API and ours (but I didn’t estimated the amount of effort). Ok. In the VW Store, the latest version is: timestamp: 21 Nov 2013 15:22:32 version: 7.10.1 - 3 I don't really know what it means (the 3rd release of 7.10.1 ?) Are the two merged often? As I understand it they kind of forked, because even though GLORP has its own multi-dialect layers, it still was too VW/PGSQL. The DBXTalk guys narrowed the gap, but still… something like that, yeah :P Ok. Is there a process somewhere on how to convert VW code to Pharo? Just load it would already be cool. I'd join an community driven ORM Task Force for Pharo. IMHO merging VW's and Pharo's version won't be an easy quest. While debugging GLORP I learnt a few things about its internals, and I think other users share the same learning process. So I am willing to spend some time on this. :) Cool ! We might need some people who were involved in the Pharo/Squeak port I guess... Where is the best place to ask about Glorp by the way?
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
2014-09-04 11:18 GMT-03:00 François Stephany tulipe.mouta...@gmail.com: What is the relation between the glorp we have with the VW version? Outdated, according to Alan Knight in response to a bug I reported. The truth is no one knows. not entirely true. we know that is outdated :) Now, our version was ported from (AFAIR) 7.1 and extended to allow our drivers. Probably next time best path of porting is to make a bridge between VW driver API and ours (but I didn’t estimated the amount of effort). Ok. In the VW Store, the latest version is: timestamp: 21 Nov 2013 15:22:32 version: 7.10.1 - 3 I don't really know what it means (the 3rd release of 7.10.1 ?) I don't know either. Metacello versions doesn't follow that versioning numbers. Are the two merged often? As I understand it they kind of forked, because even though GLORP has its own multi-dialect layers, it still was too VW/PGSQL. The DBXTalk guys narrowed the gap, but still… something like that, yeah :P Ok. Is there a process somewhere on how to convert VW code to Pharo? Just load it would already be cool. I'd join an community driven ORM Task Force for Pharo. IMHO merging VW's and Pharo's version won't be an easy quest. While debugging GLORP I learnt a few things about its internals, and I think other users share the same learning process. So I am willing to spend some time on this. :) Cool ! We might need some people who were involved in the Pharo/Squeak port I guess... Many of them are here, AFAIR they were Lorenzano, Polito, Peck. Even with its outdated condition, ORM hasn't changed much in the past years, so current GLORP fits most of the needs, it's proven, it's tested and it's reliable. Where is the best place to ask about Glorp by the way? I wonder the same. The official discussion group is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/glorp-group But it is not very active. So IMHO, for Pharo use this is the best place, and for VisualWorks its own mailing list. Regards! Esteban.
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
On 04 Sep 2014, at 16:18, François Stephany tulipe.mouta...@gmail.com wrote: Ok. Is there a process somewhere on how to convert VW code to Pharo? Just load it would already be cool. Glorp is pretty big and complex. Porting something cross platform is a huge amount of work, I think most of it was basically done by hand. This creates a huge maintenance problem of course. The same is true for Xtreams. Seaside seems to be able to manage this problem by being extremely careful.
Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Glorp 1.7 - VisualWorks
Yes, I guess cross dialect is not for the faint of heart. I feel like fixing bugs and improving stuff for pharo is the best way to diverge from the original project. Grumpf. On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@stfx.eu wrote: On 04 Sep 2014, at 16:18, François Stephany tulipe.mouta...@gmail.com wrote: Ok. Is there a process somewhere on how to convert VW code to Pharo? Just load it would already be cool. Glorp is pretty big and complex. Porting something cross platform is a huge amount of work, I think most of it was basically done by hand. This creates a huge maintenance problem of course. The same is true for Xtreams. Seaside seems to be able to manage this problem by being extremely careful.
