RE: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space
Hey Steve, Your decision to go with your intuition and shoot what you feel represents the theme of 'authentic space' rather than stick to some rigid predefined definition, I think was the right decision. As you mature as an artist...as you become a more seasoned artist you'll learn that you have to trust your gut. Even if it means breaking a rule or two or veering off onto a different direction. You'll find that some very happy accidents will occur and that your work will become a much more personal representation of yourself. Art is about expressing oneself not pleasing an audience (although I wonder going through some galleries). I too find the topic of authentic space quite interesting, especially in a North American context. There are so many non-authentic places that it is a real challenge to define the authentic space. A whole series could be done hunting down authentic spaces in Las Vegas. If you're interested in an analysis of North Americans' obsession with trying to create authentic spaces, I highly recommend an essay called Travels in Hyperreality by Umberto Eco. It's in a book of essays by Eco called Travels in Hyperreality. ...But then again I guess this would be more theory. Good luck with the project, and I hope you'll share your results with us. Back to lurking... -Will _ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
[pinhole-discussion] Authentic Space?
Tim, Thank you for that beautiful image of Paul Wellstone's memorial. I am a voting Minnesotan, transported temporarily to New York and I am still reeling from last Friday's tragic events, and am finding it hard to not be there now. Your pinhole shot was just what I needed to cut through the high gloss media images I've been glued to for a week. I've also been pondering the notion of authentic space since it was first posted here. I love the sound of those words, but struggle to understand what they define. For me, your image and comments speak right to the heart of it. Thanks. In a message dated 10/31/02 8:52:22 AM, pinhole-discussion-request@p at ??? writes: It is an image made this past Monday at the impromptu memorial outside the late Senator Paul Wellstone's campaign headquarters in St. Paul, Minnesota. Much of the discussion defining authentic space seemed to include patina as an essential ingredient.
RE: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space
I think we all need to stop reading theory altogether. but i just can't help it, it's so interesting. anyway, i just responded to someone's previous email, but i figure i will reiterate. and i hope you all don't think that i'm copping out by making this statement, but in my thought progression with this idea, i've decided to define authentic space by my photographs only. i originally thought to myself 'diners, industry, etc. these things are authentic'. but then i started noticing things that i felt were authentic, but didn't fit into my strict definition. so i've decided to just shoot and print what makes me feel what i feel, and in the end, we will have a more introspective reflection of authentic space. i do feel like a lot of this has to do with class conciousness. class conciousness is something that i've thought about for years. i'm only 19, but since i can remember it's been on my mind. i grew up in an upper middle class environment. relatively privileged. certainly not suffering. not ultra rich. but we were definitely comfortable. when i was about 14 i started noticing the world around me and how most of the people in it certainly lack the privileges which i had so long taken for granted. it made me feel really guitly. that guilt is something i still deal with. what happened was i got into punk rock, which was originally a very working class thing, and i certainly rebelled against my upbringing. when i was 16 i dropped out of school and moved across the country to california in order to abandoned the privilege that i had. i know all of this is so dramatic and blah blah, but i'm going to relate it to authentic space so be patient. so i tried to connect myself to the working class. i tried to connect myself to poverty. i tried to understand what the rest of the world was going through, by living on the streets, basically. since then i have certainly calmed down regarding my ideas and such. i think these things will be hugely reflected when i'm finished with this authentic space thing. because now that i'm letting myself shoot without definition, it will be a study on me, and how i am from the upper middle class, white privileged upbringing, and how i feel that these certain things are authentic. and the more i think about it, the more i think that the reason these things are authentic to me, is because they are something i never really was able to connect with, but i wanted to so desperately. i hope this email wasn't too wishy washy or far fetched. we'll see how things turn out. steve [Original Message] From: Tom Harvey harv...@aracnet.com To: pinhole-discussion@p at ??? Date: 10/28/2002 4:09:41 PM Subject: RE: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space Steve Bell wrote: Hmm, well let's see. i originally began with the idea of places where people go to reclaim the past. for example, diners. i go to diners all the time, and a friend of mine started talking to me about the idea of authentic space. like, in the 50's diners were kind of this ideal for the future. all stream lined and chrome and neon. now diners are this ideal of the past. this space where people feel like they are part of something authentic. we also talked about how yuppie artist types get apartments in more urban areas, and nouveau bourgoise people buy industrial type buildings and turn them into living spaces so they can feel more conntected to the working class that they've left behind. this is all architectural theory that she had been reading. Well, she should probably quit reading architectural theory! But an interesting line of thinking nonetheless. I am not clear if diners are authentic (storefront restaurants might be more so); if converted warehouses are like -- or not like -- diners (old, scarcity, nostalgia); if old barns, quarries, cars with carburetors . . spaces left over where real work has moved to more modern methods are any more real than what replaces them. But they are more photogenic. I am reminded of Brooks Jensen's photographs (not pinhole) of traditional machine shops and the people who work there. http://www.lenswork.com/mos.htm That's authentic! At least the subject matter is. But are we all, when exploring authentic space or activity, just yuppie artists trying to be connected to the working class? Pinhole photography doesn't seem too proletariat to me. To be clear -- I do not mean to sound critical. It really is an interesting line of thought as I contemplate why I (and others) take pictures at all, what we take pictures of, who we expect to be interested in our pictures (perhaps to the point of purchasing them), and whether critical theory is of any use at all beyond employing college professors -- and prompting discussions like this! (Disclosure: working class upbringing, now a college professor, too old to be a yuppie, too underpaid to qualify as a typical urban professional -- and an urban warehouse district
RE: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space
This whole discussion of authentic space is very interesting to me, both from a philosophical perspective and practical perspective. I think the learning for me is that photos are almost always better when there is a driving vision behind the images, and better yet, a cohesive theme. Having seen numerous photo exhibitions here in Washington, DC at all the major and not so major galleries, it never struck me how important theme is to achieving impact and meaning for a full exhibit. Thanks for raising such an important aspect of photography! R.J. -Original Message- From: Steve Bell [mailto:veracity...@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:49 AM To: pinhole-discussion@p at ??? Subject: Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space i think i kind of began this project with that idea, but as i've progressed, i've decided to really just shoot whatever feels to me authentic space. i used these definitions as a kind of starting point and have let things develop from there. so i'm hoping that when i'm finished it will be less a documentary on authentic space, and more a personal, subjective study on myself and how i see the world. hope that makes sense. steve
Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space
i think i kind of began this project with that idea, but as i've progressed, i've decided to really just shoot whatever feels to me authentic space. i used these definitions as a kind of starting point and have let things develop from there. so i'm hoping that when i'm finished it will be less a documentary on authentic space, and more a personal, subjective study on myself and how i see the world. hope that makes sense. steve [Original Message] From: erick...@hickorytech.net To: pinhole-discussion@p at ??? Date: 10/28/2002 6:59:18 AM Subject: Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space It seems to me that what you are describing is spaces with a history, and a funky history at that. The remembrance of things past, to steal a phrase. - Original Message - From: Steve Bell veracity...@earthlink.net To: Pinhole List pinhole-discussion@p at ??? Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 12:00 AM Subject: Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space So far i've done a lot of shooting in diners and also in thrift stores. i look at thrift stores as a kind of attempt for some people to reclaim this idea of the past. friends of mine go to them looking for vintage type clothing. i go there to buy every old camera in sight (it's really ridiculous, even the broken ones, gotta have those instamatics). i've also done some industrial/urban landscapes. i think i've stopped defining authentic space by other people's standards, and started defining it by my own, which i'm happy about. that was this series of photos becomes documentary, but also very personal. the one thing i'm really struggling with is the process i'm using. you see i'm doing this all for my color photography class, but i think in the end it would be better if the prints were something like pt/pd or maybe even salt prints or something like that. something that is more on the alternative process tip, simply because i think the subject matter would lend itself well to such a look. whatever are everyone elses thoughts on authentic space? steve [Original Message] From: Gregg Kemp gregg@p at ??? To: pinhole-discussion@p at ??? Date: 10/27/2002 7:26:02 PM Subject: Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space On Sunday, October 27, 2002, at 06:43 PM, Steve Bell wrote: Hmm, well let's see. i originally began with the idea of places where people go to reclaim the past. for example, diners. i go to diners all the time, and a friend of mine started talking to me about the idea of authentic space. like, in the 50's diners were kind of this ideal for the future. all stream lined and chrome and neon. now diners are this ideal of the past. this space where people feel like they are part of something authentic. we also talked about how yuppie artist types get apartments in more urban areas, and nouveau bourgoise people buy industrial type buildings and turn them into living spaces so they can feel more conntected to the working class that they've left behind. this is all architectural theory that she had been reading. it got me very interested. so i've been shooting authentic space. i started off just doing diners and thrift stores, but i've now started relying more on my instincts, shooting whatever feels like authentic space, rather than defining it by these specific criteria. I find this very interesting Steve - the idea of how the perspective of a place changes over time. What places, or types of places have your instincts taken you to (if you don't mind my asking)? And thank you Rosanne, for asking about the meaning of authentic places. I just assumed I had simply missed out on something else. - Gregg ___ Post to the list as PLAIN TEXT only - no HTML Pinhole-Discussion mailing list Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? unsubscribe or change your account at http://www.???/discussion/ --- Steve Bell --- veracity...@earthlink.net --- http://www.unbeknownst.org/~insurrective / http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/insurrection --- In fact, rock, rather than being an example of how freedom can be achieved within the capitalist structure, is an example of how capitalism can, almost without a conscious effort, deceive those whom it oppresses...So effective has the rock industry been in encouraging the spirit of optimistic youth take-over that rock's truly hard political edge, it's constant exploration of the varieties of youthful frustration, has been ignored and softened. --Michael Lydon ___ Post to the list as PLAIN TEXT only - no HTML Pinhole-Discussion mailing list Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? unsubscribe or change your account at http://www.???/discussion
[pinhole-discussion] Authentic Space?
Dear All, The recent discussion on authentic space may be apropos of the image I've just uploaded to the discussion list gallery. http://www.???/discussion/upload/gallery2002.php ?pic=tmiller_wellstonehq.jpg It is an image made this past Monday at the impromptu memorial outside the late Senator Paul Wellstone's campaign headquarters in St. Paul, Minnesota. Much of the discussion defining authentic space seemed to include patina as an essential ingredient. This image is of a space three days old. It will return to brick building, sidewalk and chain link fence soon, certainly by the next rain or snow. Judging by what I experienced there, the space was genuine, yet spontaneous, transitory and connected to the past only through the accumulated experiences of those participating. Tom
Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space
Authentic space. Interesting idea, and I like the sound of the words, but I am having trouble undertstanding exactly what we are talking about. Spaces true to their historical context? Perhaps that just means spaces that have failed to keep up with the times. There is a barber shop near where I live that was built in the 1940s, I would guess. I've never been in it, but from the street it looks like a movie set--the old-fashioned leather chairs, enamel sinks, the hand lettering on the window glass. Is this an authentic space? I think you could argue either way equally convincingly. Authentic because unchanged and therefore, in a sense, true to its times, but at the same time an anachronism and not authentic because its times no longer exist, not authentic because it is clearly out of synch with the only times we in fact have, these times. Is it suited to pinhole because we tend to romanticize the simple and elemental qualities of the process and connect them with nostalgia for times past? The most vulgar expression of this may be those sepia photos you can get dressed up in old West clothes. I also remember once standing in front of an innocuous government building in Tokyo built in the Victorian style. I suddenly noticed a plaque noting that it had been the Japanese Army's general headquarters during the war. Suddenly I wanted the place to feel evil. No matter how hard I tried, though, it was just an old building. It was not responsible for the actions planned in it. I decided then that places have no memory. I've had the feeling looking at battlefield sites that were empty fields. Makes me wonder if space can objectively be called authentic or inauthentic at all. I doubt it, somehow. It seems to me more a matter of whether the space resonates at the same frequency we happen to be vibrating at as we gaze at it or as we think about it. Just some thoughts on the subject as I sit here avoiding work I should be doing... I, too, would be interested to hear what other people think. Especially interested in why people think authentic space, if there is such a thing, is a pinhole kind of thing. Colin __ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space
Actually Steve, I thought that 'authentic space' aptly describes what pinhole photography does best: the least-'mediated' form of optical representation possible, the least mechanically altered form of vision between the object and its representation. Just my .02USD -Z- _ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space
It seems to me that what you are describing is spaces with a history, and a funky history at that. The remembrance of things past, to steal a phrase. - Original Message - From: Steve Bell veracity...@earthlink.net To: Pinhole List pinhole-discussion@p at ??? Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 12:00 AM Subject: Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space So far i've done a lot of shooting in diners and also in thrift stores. i look at thrift stores as a kind of attempt for some people to reclaim this idea of the past. friends of mine go to them looking for vintage type clothing. i go there to buy every old camera in sight (it's really ridiculous, even the broken ones, gotta have those instamatics). i've also done some industrial/urban landscapes. i think i've stopped defining authentic space by other people's standards, and started defining it by my own, which i'm happy about. that was this series of photos becomes documentary, but also very personal. the one thing i'm really struggling with is the process i'm using. you see i'm doing this all for my color photography class, but i think in the end it would be better if the prints were something like pt/pd or maybe even salt prints or something like that. something that is more on the alternative process tip, simply because i think the subject matter would lend itself well to such a look. whatever are everyone elses thoughts on authentic space? steve [Original Message] From: Gregg Kemp gregg@p at ??? To: pinhole-discussion@p at ??? Date: 10/27/2002 7:26:02 PM Subject: Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space On Sunday, October 27, 2002, at 06:43 PM, Steve Bell wrote: Hmm, well let's see. i originally began with the idea of places where people go to reclaim the past. for example, diners. i go to diners all the time, and a friend of mine started talking to me about the idea of authentic space. like, in the 50's diners were kind of this ideal for the future. all stream lined and chrome and neon. now diners are this ideal of the past. this space where people feel like they are part of something authentic. we also talked about how yuppie artist types get apartments in more urban areas, and nouveau bourgoise people buy industrial type buildings and turn them into living spaces so they can feel more conntected to the working class that they've left behind. this is all architectural theory that she had been reading. it got me very interested. so i've been shooting authentic space. i started off just doing diners and thrift stores, but i've now started relying more on my instincts, shooting whatever feels like authentic space, rather than defining it by these specific criteria. I find this very interesting Steve - the idea of how the perspective of a place changes over time. What places, or types of places have your instincts taken you to (if you don't mind my asking)? And thank you Rosanne, for asking about the meaning of authentic places. I just assumed I had simply missed out on something else. - Gregg ___ Post to the list as PLAIN TEXT only - no HTML Pinhole-Discussion mailing list Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? unsubscribe or change your account at http://www.???/discussion/ --- Steve Bell --- veracity...@earthlink.net --- http://www.unbeknownst.org/~insurrective / http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/insurrection --- In fact, rock, rather than being an example of how freedom can be achieved within the capitalist structure, is an example of how capitalism can, almost without a conscious effort, deceive those whom it oppresses...So effective has the rock industry been in encouraging the spirit of optimistic youth take-over that rock's truly hard political edge, it's constant exploration of the varieties of youthful frustration, has been ignored and softened. --Michael Lydon ___ Post to the list as PLAIN TEXT only - no HTML Pinhole-Discussion mailing list Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? unsubscribe or change your account at http://www.???/discussion/
Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space
So far i've done a lot of shooting in diners and also in thrift stores. i look at thrift stores as a kind of attempt for some people to reclaim this idea of the past. friends of mine go to them looking for vintage type clothing. i go there to buy every old camera in sight (it's really ridiculous, even the broken ones, gotta have those instamatics). i've also done some industrial/urban landscapes. i think i've stopped defining authentic space by other people's standards, and started defining it by my own, which i'm happy about. that was this series of photos becomes documentary, but also very personal. the one thing i'm really struggling with is the process i'm using. you see i'm doing this all for my color photography class, but i think in the end it would be better if the prints were something like pt/pd or maybe even salt prints or something like that. something that is more on the alternative process tip, simply because i think the subject matter would lend itself well to such a look. whatever are everyone elses thoughts on authentic space? steve [Original Message] From: Gregg Kemp gregg@p at ??? To: pinhole-discussion@p at ??? Date: 10/27/2002 7:26:02 PM Subject: Re: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space On Sunday, October 27, 2002, at 06:43 PM, Steve Bell wrote: Hmm, well let's see. i originally began with the idea of places where people go to reclaim the past. for example, diners. i go to diners all the time, and a friend of mine started talking to me about the idea of authentic space. like, in the 50's diners were kind of this ideal for the future. all stream lined and chrome and neon. now diners are this ideal of the past. this space where people feel like they are part of something authentic. we also talked about how yuppie artist types get apartments in more urban areas, and nouveau bourgoise people buy industrial type buildings and turn them into living spaces so they can feel more conntected to the working class that they've left behind. this is all architectural theory that she had been reading. it got me very interested. so i've been shooting authentic space. i started off just doing diners and thrift stores, but i've now started relying more on my instincts, shooting whatever feels like authentic space, rather than defining it by these specific criteria. I find this very interesting Steve - the idea of how the perspective of a place changes over time. What places, or types of places have your instincts taken you to (if you don't mind my asking)? And thank you Rosanne, for asking about the meaning of authentic places. I just assumed I had simply missed out on something else. - Gregg ___ Post to the list as PLAIN TEXT only - no HTML Pinhole-Discussion mailing list Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? unsubscribe or change your account at http://www.???/discussion/ --- Steve Bell --- veracity...@earthlink.net --- http://www.unbeknownst.org/~insurrective / http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/insurrection --- In fact, rock, rather than being an example of how freedom can be achieved within the capitalist structure, is an example of how capitalism can, almost without a conscious effort, deceive those whom it oppresses...So effective has the rock industry been in encouraging the spirit of optimistic youth take-over that rock's truly hard political edge, it's constant exploration of the varieties of youthful frustration, has been ignored and softened. --Michael Lydon
RE: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space
Hmm, well let's see. i originally began with the idea of places where people go to reclaim the past. for example, diners. i go to diners all the time, and a friend of mine started talking to me about the idea of authentic space. like, in the 50's diners were kind of this ideal for the future. all stream lined and chrome and neon. now diners are this ideal of the past. this space where people feel like they are part of something authentic. we also talked about how yuppie artist types get apartments in more urban areas, and nouveau bourgoise people buy industrial type buildings and turn them into living spaces so they can feel more conntected to the working class that they've left behind. this is all architectural theory that she had been reading. it got me very interested. so i've been shooting authentic space. i started off just doing diners and thrift stores, but i've now started relying more on my instincts, shooting whatever feels like authentic space, rather than defining it by these specific criteria. so there you have it. more sociological than truth in pinhole relations of time and space. cheers, steve [Original Message] From: ethereal art ethereal...@mindspring.com To: pinhole-discussion@p at ??? Date: 10/27/2002 6:27:58 PM Subject: [pinhole-discussion] authentic space From: Steve Bell veracity...@earthlink.net so after almost a year on this list, i finally made a pinhole camera. it was absolutely necessary for this project i am doing (authentic space) So Steve, define your term authentic space. Inter-dimensional photography? Truth in pinhole relations of time and space? Reality check through a pinhole? ;-) Rosanne ___ Post to the list as PLAIN TEXT only - no HTML Pinhole-Discussion mailing list Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? unsubscribe or change your account at http://www.???/discussion/ --- Steve Bell --- veracity...@earthlink.net --- http://www.unbeknownst.org/~insurrective / http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/insurrection --- In fact, rock, rather than being an example of how freedom can be achieved within the capitalist structure, is an example of how capitalism can, almost without a conscious effort, deceive those whom it oppresses...So effective has the rock industry been in encouraging the spirit of optimistic youth take-over that rock's truly hard political edge, it's constant exploration of the varieties of youthful frustration, has been ignored and softened. --Michael Lydon
[pinhole-discussion] authentic space
From: Steve Bell veracity...@earthlink.net so after almost a year on this list, i finally made a pinhole camera. it was absolutely necessary for this project i am doing (authentic space) So Steve, define your term authentic space. Inter-dimensional photography? Truth in pinhole relations of time and space? Reality check through a pinhole? ;-) Rosanne
