Re: Server CPU

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

Thank you to everyone who went with me on this journey.  For me it was 
extremely fruitful.  I was thinking a vCPU was a thread and therefore 
one would need lots of cores and threads to make a Proxmox server.  I 
can not see that is not the case.


Based on all you good folks have tough me, I assume, I would be able to 
use a 10 year old laptop with and i3-2130 CPU and maybe 8GB of RAM as a 
Proxmox server for simple PHP development.  Maybe even as little as 4GB 
of RAM.


I also assume that with this machine (8GB RAM version) I would be able 
to create a Web server configured running Proxmox and multiple VMs that 
would all be running simultaneously, one for HTTP(s), one running MySQL, 
one running BIND, and one running Dovecot and Postfix.


Understanding what a vCPU is really is a game changer.

Keith



On 2023-07-21 09:32, Ryan Petris wrote:

1) a vCPU is akin to a process.


Yes


2) One can configure lots of VMs that will share the CPUs.


Yes


3) Do not overload the server by adding too many VMs that all want

resources. I assume top can be used to evaluate the amount of load
on

the server.


That's correct, you should see one "/usr/bin/kvm" process per vcpu if
you're using proxmox


3) When I configure a VM the amount of RAM is static (not shared).
If I

have 16GB of RAM then I realistically can only have around 12 - 14GB
of

RAM in use at any given time.  That would be running VMs.  I can
have

tons of VMs that are not running and not using resources/RAM and
their

RAM is no counted.  Its the active VM's that count.  RAM is not
shared.


The RAM _can_ be shared but that's dependent on the virtual machine
being configured properly. Linux, at least, automatically detects if
it's running in a virtual machine and enables what's called
"ballooning" to give back unused ram to the host. So again, as long as
you're able to keep the in use memory under your total memory you
should be fine.

A good rule of thumb though is, under normal load/usage, your in use
memory shouldn't exceed 50% of your total memory.

If you're going to run a Windows VM you'll want to make sure to
install the virtio drivers, of which Fedora provides a compiled
version of:
https://fedorapeople.org/groups/virt/virtio-win/direct-downloads/archive-virtio/virtio-win-0.1.229-1/


4) The amount of file space allotted to a VM is also static and is
taken

up even when the VM is off.  For example if I have 10 VMs that are

assigned 20GB of disk space each, then that would total 200GB that
are

allocated and are always assigned and not shared with the other VMs.


Disk space is also tricky, you can either pre-allocate it, in which
case you're correct, or use "thin provisioning", where the VM will
only take up as much space on the host as used in the VM. Now, that
space will grow over time but will never shrink on its own, even if
you delete stuff from the VM. If you think of it as an SSD that needs
a periodic trim, it functions similarly. Coincidentally, if you use
Proxmox with either "raw" disk images or use ZFS, then you'll be able
to issue a trim command from the guest, which will release any unused
disk space back to the host. I personally run a trim on all my VMs
once every few months or so, or when I notice that a VM is taking up
much more space than is actually in-use in the VM.

You'll probably find some information saying that pre-allocating disk
space is better because it performs better, however I think that
advice is outdated especially if you're going to run the VMs on a good
quality SSD or NVME drive.

On Fri, Jul 21, 2023, at 8:02 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:


On 2023-07-20 16:25, Todd Cole via PLUG-discuss wrote:


I use a lot of proxmox servers and very happy with them most are

for


small office use running a router, win server and  samba file

server


and a win 10 for remote users to vpn into



most of the hardware is used dell 4-6th gen I-7 (cheap 4 cores 8



virtual) with zfs raid 1 2 SSD's for redundancy and a spinner HDD

for


back up 32-64 gb ram and meet my needs



with ease. both at home and work.







I have used rack servers but they are hard to fit on a shelf, HOT

and


use a lot of power and sound like a jet taking off. (I have a few

to


donate free)



my point is do not over think or spend money to build a home lab

or


hardware that you will need to replace due to your use case.



I still have one on a duel core 8 gb ram 2 250GB spinning disks

that I


use as a router and zoneminder camera DVR in a un air conditioned



vacant office it just chugs along in 118 heat



I have a twin to it that is all set up ready to run that I would

be


willing donate also. Todd






---

I'm starting to understand what a vCPU is and that I really do not
need

a bunch of cores and threads.  I have an old Dell i5 with 4 cores, 4


threads, 16GB of RAM, and a 1TB SSD.

I'm a PHP developer and use the Proxmox box for testing and
development.

Currently I have one LAMP VM configured.

This is what I 

Re: Server CPU

[Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss]

> 1) a vCPU is akin to a process.

Yes

> 2) One can configure lots of VMs that will share the CPUs.

Yes

> 3) Do not overload the server by adding too many VMs that all want 
> resources. I assume top can be used to evaluate the amount of load on 
> the server.

That's correct, you should see one "/usr/bin/kvm" process per vcpu if you're 
using proxmox

> 3) When I configure a VM the amount of RAM is static (not shared).  If I 
> have 16GB of RAM then I realistically can only have around 12 - 14GB of 
> RAM in use at any given time.  That would be running VMs.  I can have 
> tons of VMs that are not running and not using resources/RAM and their 
> RAM is no counted.  Its the active VM's that count.  RAM is not shared.

The RAM *can* be shared but that's dependent on the virtual machine being 
configured properly. Linux, at least, automatically detects if it's running in 
a virtual machine and enables what's called "ballooning" to give back unused 
ram to the host. So again, as long as you're able to keep the in use memory 
under your total memory you should be fine.

A good rule of thumb though is, under normal load/usage, your in use memory 
shouldn't exceed 50% of your total memory.

If you're going to run a Windows VM you'll want to make sure to install the 
virtio drivers, of which Fedora provides a compiled version of: 
https://fedorapeople.org/groups/virt/virtio-win/direct-downloads/archive-virtio/virtio-win-0.1.229-1/

> 4) The amount of file space allotted to a VM is also static and is taken 
> up even when the VM is off.  For example if I have 10 VMs that are 
> assigned 20GB of disk space each, then that would total 200GB that are 
> allocated and are always assigned and not shared with the other VMs.

Disk space is also tricky, you can either pre-allocate it, in which case you're 
correct, or use "thin provisioning", where the VM will only take up as much 
space on the host as used in the VM. Now, that space will grow over time but 
will never shrink on its own, even if you delete stuff from the VM. If you 
think of it as an SSD that needs a periodic trim, it functions similarly. 
Coincidentally, if you use Proxmox with either "raw" disk images or use ZFS, 
then you'll be able to issue a trim command from the guest, which will release 
any unused disk space back to the host. I personally run a trim on all my VMs 
once every few months or so, or when I notice that a VM is taking up much more 
space than is actually in-use in the VM.

You'll probably find some information saying that pre-allocating disk space is 
better because it performs better, however I think that advice is outdated 
especially if you're going to run the VMs on a good quality SSD or NVME drive.

On Fri, Jul 21, 2023, at 8:02 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> On 2023-07-20 16:25, Todd Cole via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > I use a lot of proxmox servers and very happy with them most are for
> > small office use running a router, win server and  samba file server
> > and a win 10 for remote users to vpn into
> > most of the hardware is used dell 4-6th gen I-7 (cheap 4 cores 8
> > virtual) with zfs raid 1 2 SSD's for redundancy and a spinner HDD for
> > back up 32-64 gb ram and meet my needs
> > with ease. both at home and work.
> > 
> > I have used rack servers but they are hard to fit on a shelf, HOT and
> > use a lot of power and sound like a jet taking off. (I have a few to
> > donate free)
> > my point is do not over think or spend money to build a home lab or
> > hardware that you will need to replace due to your use case.
> > I still have one on a duel core 8 gb ram 2 250GB spinning disks that I
> > use as a router and zoneminder camera DVR in a un air conditioned
> > vacant office it just chugs along in 118 heat
> > I have a twin to it that is all set up ready to run that I would be
> > willing donate also. Todd
> > 
> 
> ---
> I'm starting to understand what a vCPU is and that I really do not need 
> a bunch of cores and threads.  I have an old Dell i5 with 4 cores, 4 
> threads, 16GB of RAM, and a 1TB SSD.
> 
> I'm a PHP developer and use the Proxmox box for testing and development. 
>   Currently I have one LAMP VM configured.
> 
> This is what I come away with from this thread:
> 
> 1) a vCPU is akin to a process.
> 2) One can configure lots of VMs that will share the CPUs.
> 3) Do not overload the server by adding too many VMs that all want 
> resources. I assume top can be used to evaluate the amount of load on 
> the server.
> 3) When I configure a VM the amount of RAM is static (not shared).  If I 
> have 16GB of RAM then I realistically can only have around 12 - 14GB of 
> RAM in use at any given time.  That would be running VMs.  I can have 
> tons of VMs that are not running and not using resources/RAM and their 
> RAM is no counted.  Its the active VM's that count.  RAM is not shared.
> 4) The amount of file space allotted to a VM is also static and is taken 
> up even when the VM is off.  For example if I

Re: Server CPU

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

On 2023-07-20 16:25, Todd Cole via PLUG-discuss wrote:

I use a lot of proxmox servers and very happy with them most are for
small office use running a router, win server and  samba file server
and a win 10 for remote users to vpn into
most of the hardware is used dell 4-6th gen I-7 (cheap 4 cores 8
virtual) with zfs raid 1 2 SSD's for redundancy and a spinner HDD for
back up 32-64 gb ram and meet my needs
with ease. both at home and work.

I have used rack servers but they are hard to fit on a shelf, HOT and
use a lot of power and sound like a jet taking off. (I have a few to
donate free)
my point is do not over think or spend money to build a home lab or
hardware that you will need to replace due to your use case.
I still have one on a duel core 8 gb ram 2 250GB spinning disks that I
use as a router and zoneminder camera DVR in a un air conditioned
vacant office it just chugs along in 118 heat
I have a twin to it that is all set up ready to run that I would be
willing donate also. Todd



---
I'm starting to understand what a vCPU is and that I really do not need 
a bunch of cores and threads.  I have an old Dell i5 with 4 cores, 4 
threads, 16GB of RAM, and a 1TB SSD.


I'm a PHP developer and use the Proxmox box for testing and development. 
 Currently I have one LAMP VM configured.


This is what I come away with from this thread:

1) a vCPU is akin to a process.
2) One can configure lots of VMs that will share the CPUs.
3) Do not overload the server by adding too many VMs that all want 
resources. I assume top can be used to evaluate the amount of load on 
the server.
3) When I configure a VM the amount of RAM is static (not shared).  If I 
have 16GB of RAM then I realistically can only have around 12 - 14GB of 
RAM in use at any given time.  That would be running VMs.  I can have 
tons of VMs that are not running and not using resources/RAM and their 
RAM is no counted.  Its the active VM's that count.  RAM is not shared.
4) The amount of file space allotted to a VM is also static and is taken 
up even when the VM is off.  For example if I have 10 VMs that are 
assigned 20GB of disk space each, then that would total 200GB that are 
allocated and are always assigned and not shared with the other VMs.


---

OK, another question.  If commercial rack mount servers are so noisy and 
use a lot of electricity... then why not use consumer grade computers?


Around 2005/2006 I was working as a level 1 at iPower.  A manager showed 
us some pictures of the server room in downtown L.A. and they had a ton 
of HP mini towers on storage racks that were being used as hardware 
servers for hosting.  I think they called them dedicated servers.


---


On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 3:09 PM George Toft via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:


Be very careful with ESX.  I know someone who bought a random server
and ESX7 was not supported.  It used to run on anything, now, not so
much.  Check the support matrix before you buy.

Regards,

George Toft

On 7/20/2023 1:12 PM, greg zegan via PLUG-discuss wrote:


Hello,
I appreciate this topic.  I have been wondering for a while now
if there is an affordable home server out there for EXSi and such.
Is there any way for someone to come up with a few choices for
people like me?  Is there a low end, mid range, and high end home
server for someone to list with parts or suggested parts?

thanks,
Greg

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 01:01:13 PM MST, Keith Smith via
PLUG-discuss  wrote:

Thanks!!

On 2023-07-20 11:36, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:

I personally wouldn't even go for a used server. They're

generally

loud, and even when they aren't they use much more electricity

than

what you would get from a consumer platform. There's really no

benefit

unless you have room in your house to make a real server room

with

racks and the electrical capacity to go along with it.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:


the downside for these processors is their mainboards are still

very

pricy to buy. much more than the CPU itself. you are almost

better

off looking for and buying a refurbished server which you can

get

for almost ludicrously inexpensive prices.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 1:56 PM Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:

The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore

--

it's of the same generation as 6000 series intel processors

(i.e.

skylake). It also uses a server socket, so the only

motherboards

you're going to be able to find are server motherboards. Those

are

going to be expensive and/or have other quirks, such as

requiring a

vendor specific heatsink, or a vendor-specific power supply, or

take

5 minutes to start up, etc.

You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and
motherboard, for instance here's a combination that is

relatively

cheap:

$174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net [1]

[1] is

nearly 30% faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs

15146,

much faster single-core score as wel

Re: Server CPU

[Todd Cole via PLUG-discuss]

I use a lot of proxmox servers and very happy with them most are for small
office use running a router, win server and  samba file server and a win 10
for remote users to vpn into
most of the hardware is used dell 4-6th gen I-7 (cheap 4 cores 8 virtual)
with zfs raid 1 2 SSD's for redundancy and a spinner HDD for back up 32-64
gb ram and meet my needs
with ease. both at home and work.
I have used rack servers but they are hard to fit on a shelf, HOT and use a
lot of power and sound like a jet taking off. (I have a few to donate free)
my point is do not over think or spend money to build a home lab or
hardware that you will need to replace due to your use case.
I still have one on a duel core 8 gb ram 2 250GB spinning disks that I use
as a router and zoneminder camera DVR in a un air conditioned vacant office
it just chugs along in 118 heat
I have a twin to it that is all set up ready to run that I would be willing
donate also. Todd


On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 3:09 PM George Toft via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Be very careful with ESX.  I know someone who bought a random server and
> ESX7 was not supported.  It used to run on anything, now, not so much.
> Check the support matrix before you buy.
>
> Regards,
>
> George Toft
>
> On 7/20/2023 1:12 PM, greg zegan via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>
> Hello,
>   I appreciate this topic.  I have been wondering for a while now if there
> is an affordable home server out there for EXSi and such.  Is there any way
> for someone to come up with a few choices for people like me?  Is there a
> low end, mid range, and high end home server for someone to list with parts
> or suggested parts?
>
> thanks,
> Greg
>
> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 01:01:13 PM MST, Keith Smith via
> PLUG-discuss 
>  wrote:
>
>
> Thanks!!
>
> On 2023-07-20 11:36, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > I personally wouldn't even go for a used server. They're generally
> > loud, and even when they aren't they use much more electricity than
> > what you would get from a consumer platform. There's really no benefit
> > unless you have room in your house to make a real server room with
> > racks and the electrical capacity to go along with it.
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
> >
> >> the downside for these processors is their mainboards are still very
> >> pricy to buy. much more than the CPU itself. you are almost better
> >> off looking for and buying a refurbished server which you can get
> >> for almost ludicrously inexpensive prices.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 1:56 PM Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore --
> >> it's of the same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e.
> >> skylake). It also uses a server socket, so the only motherboards
> >> you're going to be able to find are server motherboards. Those are
> >> going to be expensive and/or have other quirks, such as requiring a
> >> vendor specific heatsink, or a vendor-specific power supply, or take
> >> 5 minutes to start up, etc.
> >>
> >> You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and
> >> motherboard, for instance here's a combination that is relatively
> >> cheap:
> >>
> >> $174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net [1] is
> >> nearly 30% faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146,
> >> much faster single-core score as well):
> >>
> >>
> >
> https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/
> >>
> >> $139 for a compatible motherboard:
> >>
> >>
> > https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/
> >>
> >> I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you
> >> think you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of
> >> virtual processors that is much more than what you actually have,
> >> and as long as you're not trying to go whole hog on every machine at
> >> the same time you'll be fine, and even if you do, you'll still be
> >> better off with a faster processor with a few fewer threads than an
> >> older slower cpu with more.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I was surfing the Inter Web when I happened upon a Xeon server CPU.
> >> It
> >>
> >> is marked at $32.49 at Newegg.  It has 12 cores and 24 threads and
> >> has a
> >>
> >> good benchmark score.
> >>
> >>
> >
> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Silver+4116+%40+2.10GHz&id=3179
> >>
> >> https://www.newegg.com/p/274-000A-007K2?Description=Xeon
> >>
> >> In the future at some point I would like to build something with 20
> >> plus
> >>
> >> or minus cores and 40 threads more or less for Proxmox.  This would
> >> be
> >>
> >> over kills because I only need 1 or 2 VMs active at one time...
> >> maybe 3
> >>
> >> in an extreme situation.
> >>
> >> This 12 core/24 thread CPU with 64Gb of Ram and a 1Tb SSD would
> >> really
> >>

Re: Server CPU

[George Toft via PLUG-discuss]

Be very careful with ESX.  I know someone who bought a random server and 
ESX7 was not supported.  It used to run on anything, now, not so much.  
Check the support matrix before you buy.


Regards,

George Toft

On 7/20/2023 1:12 PM, greg zegan via PLUG-discuss wrote:

Hello,
  I appreciate this topic.  I have been wondering for a while now if 
there is an affordable home server out there for EXSi and such.  Is 
there any way for someone to come up with a few choices for people 
like me?  Is there a low end, mid range, and high end home server for 
someone to list with parts or suggested parts?


thanks,
Greg

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 01:01:13 PM MST, Keith Smith via 
PLUG-discuss  wrote:



Thanks!!

On 2023-07-20 11:36, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> I personally wouldn't even go for a used server. They're generally
> loud, and even when they aren't they use much more electricity than
> what you would get from a consumer platform. There's really no benefit
> unless you have room in your house to make a real server room with
> racks and the electrical capacity to go along with it.
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
>
>> the downside for these processors is their mainboards are still very
>> pricy to buy. much more than the CPU itself. you are almost better
>> off looking for and buying a refurbished server which you can get
>> for almost ludicrously inexpensive prices.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 1:56 PM Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss
>>  wrote:
>>
>> The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore --
>> it's of the same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e.
>> skylake). It also uses a server socket, so the only motherboards
>> you're going to be able to find are server motherboards. Those are
>> going to be expensive and/or have other quirks, such as requiring a
>> vendor specific heatsink, or a vendor-specific power supply, or take
>> 5 minutes to start up, etc.
>>
>> You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and
>> motherboard, for instance here's a combination that is relatively
>> cheap:
>>
>> $174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net [1] is
>> nearly 30% faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146,
>> much faster single-core score as well):
>>
>>
> 
https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/

>>
>> $139 for a compatible motherboard:
>>
>>
> https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/
>>
>> I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you
>> think you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of
>> virtual processors that is much more than what you actually have,
>> and as long as you're not trying to go whole hog on every machine at
>> the same time you'll be fine, and even if you do, you'll still be
>> better off with a faster processor with a few fewer threads than an
>> older slower cpu with more.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was surfing the Inter Web when I happened upon a Xeon server CPU.
>> It
>>
>> is marked at $32.49 at Newegg.  It has 12 cores and 24 threads and
>> has a
>>
>> good benchmark score.
>>
>>
> 
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Silver+4116+%40+2.10GHz&id=3179 


>>
>> https://www.newegg.com/p/274-000A-007K2?Description=Xeon
>>
>> In the future at some point I would like to build something with 20
>> plus
>>
>> or minus cores and 40 threads more or less for Proxmox.  This would
>> be
>>
>> over kills because I only need 1 or 2 VMs active at one time...
>> maybe 3
>>
>> in an extreme situation.
>>
>> This 12 core/24 thread CPU with 64Gb of Ram and a 1Tb SSD would
>> really
>>
>> be more resources than I would ever need.  Off the top of my head
>> this
>>
>> means I might be able to build a decent Proxmox server for $500 -
>> $600.
>>
>> I do not need fancy video except for one VM that might be running
>> Win 10
>>
>> or 11...  I assume a server grade CPU would handle Win 10 and 11?
>>
>> Am I on the right track?
>>
>> Thank You For Your Feedback!!
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> ---
>>
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>
>> ---
>>
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> --
>
> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
> rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> Links:
> --
> [1] http://cpubenchmark.net

> ---

Re: Server CPU

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

VCPU is the other half of hyperthreading/smt

Rhe route I have gone is a used cpu board combination there are tons of
them on ebay and they are a single epyc but combined less than 300. And the
core density is amazing.

The again.
NEW  AMD Epyc 7551 32-Core 64-Thread 2.0GHz CPU Retail Box NO VENDOR Lock
for 99 bux. That's worth it.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 5:17 PM Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> That's right, a vCPU is a shared resource.
>
> Lets say that you had a machine with 4 cores on it. To the operating
> system, other than some nuances with the cache, PCI connections, etc., each
> core is effectively its own CPU, and therefore we'll say the machine has a
> total of 4 CPUs. Now, just becuase it has 4 CPUs doesn't mean that you can
> only run 4 programs at a time; you can run hundreds or thousands of
> programs at the time time, and the operating system will schedule those to
> run on the CPUs. Each program will get some CPU time, more so if other
> processes aren't doing much.
>
> Now, think of each vCPU as a process running on the host machine. The host
> machine will time share those vCPUs across the actual CPUs just like any
> other process running on the machine. But, within the virtual environment,
> it is seen as a real CPU to the guest operating system, and it will
> schedule programs to run on that CPU accordingly.
>
> So, you effectively have two layers of scheduling happening.
>
> There's not necessarily a limit on the number of vCPUs, just as there's
> not necessarily a limit on the number of processes that you can run. Yes
> there are technical limits on the number of processes that can be run, but
> that's an operating system limitation.
>
> Now, you can assign a vCPU to have exclusive use of a CPU on the host
> system, however unless you have some critical application where that's an
> absolute must, it's really not necessary; you're just slowing down every
> other process on that machine as they're no longer able to use that CPU
> when nothing else is using it.
>
> Now, if your machine is super busy and you have virtual machines competing
> for time, then you have what's called "steal time" or "CPU Steal", which is
> the amount of time a vCPU waits for control of a real CPU; you can read
> about that here:
> https://blog.appsignal.com/2021/09/15/cpu-steal-time-a-crucial-metric-for-cloud-servers-and-vms.html.
> But if that becomes a problem, you're overloading your system and it
> doesn't really matter how many threads your host system has.
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 12:59 PM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote:
>
> On 2023-07-20 10:55, Ryan Petris wrote:
> > The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore -- it's
> > of the same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e. skylake).
> > It also uses a server socket, so the only motherboards you're going to
> > be able to find are server motherboards. Those are going to be
> > expensive and/or have other quirks, such as requiring a vendor
> > specific heatsink, or a vendor-specific power supply, or take 5
> > minutes to start up, etc.
> >
> > You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and motherboard,
> > for instance here's a combination that is relatively cheap:
> >
> > $174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net is nearly
> > 30% faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146, much
> > faster single-core score as well):
> >
> https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/
> >
> > $139 for a compatible motherboard:
> > https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/
> >
> > I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you
> > think you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of virtual
> > processors that is much more than what you actually have, and as long
> > as you're not trying to go whole hog on every machine at the same time
> > you'll be fine, and even if you do, you'll still be better off with a
> > faster processor with a few fewer threads than an older slower cpu
> > with more.
>
> ---
>
> Several months ago I did some research on what a vCPU is.  I could not
> find an exact answer.  What I came away thinking was a vCPU is equal to
> a thread.  From what you are saying it sounds like a vCPU is a shared
> resource, so there may be more vCPUs than actual threads?  Is there a
> way I can determine the number of vCPUs a CPU will provide?
>
>
> ---
>
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I was surfing the Inter Web when I happened upon a Xeon server CPU.
> >> It
> >>
> >> is marked at $32.49 at Newegg.  It has 12 cores and 24 threads and
> >> has a
> >>
> >> good benchmark score.
> >>
> >>
> >
> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Silver+4116+%40+2.10GHz&id=3179
> >>
> >> https://www.newegg.com/p/274-000A-007K2?Description=Xeon
> >>
> >> In the future at some point I would lik

Re: Server CPU

[Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss]

That's right, a vCPU is a shared resource.

Lets say that you had a machine with 4 cores on it. To the operating system, 
other than some nuances with the cache, PCI connections, etc., each core is 
effectively its own CPU, and therefore we'll say the machine has a total of 4 
CPUs. Now, just becuase it has 4 CPUs doesn't mean that you can only run 4 
programs at a time; you can run hundreds or thousands of programs at the time 
time, and the operating system will schedule those to run on the CPUs. Each 
program will get some CPU time, more so if other processes aren't doing much.

Now, think of each vCPU as a process running on the host machine. The host 
machine will time share those vCPUs across the actual CPUs just like any other 
process running on the machine. But, within the virtual environment, it is seen 
as a real CPU to the guest operating system, and it will schedule programs to 
run on that CPU accordingly.

So, you effectively have two layers of scheduling happening.

There's not necessarily a limit on the number of vCPUs, just as there's not 
necessarily a limit on the number of processes that you can run. Yes there are 
technical limits on the number of processes that can be run, but that's an 
operating system limitation.

Now, you can assign a vCPU to have exclusive use of a CPU on the host system, 
however unless you have some critical application where that's an absolute 
must, it's really not necessary; you're just slowing down every other process 
on that machine as they're no longer able to use that CPU when nothing else is 
using it.

Now, if your machine is super busy and you have virtual machines competing for 
time, then you have what's called "steal time" or "CPU Steal", which is the 
amount of time a vCPU waits for control of a real CPU; you can read about that 
here: 
https://blog.appsignal.com/2021/09/15/cpu-steal-time-a-crucial-metric-for-cloud-servers-and-vms.html.
 But if that becomes a problem, you're overloading your system and it doesn't 
really matter how many threads your host system has.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 12:59 PM, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote:
> On 2023-07-20 10:55, Ryan Petris wrote:
> > The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore -- it's
> > of the same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e. skylake).
> > It also uses a server socket, so the only motherboards you're going to
> > be able to find are server motherboards. Those are going to be
> > expensive and/or have other quirks, such as requiring a vendor
> > specific heatsink, or a vendor-specific power supply, or take 5
> > minutes to start up, etc.
> > 
> > You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and motherboard,
> > for instance here's a combination that is relatively cheap:
> > 
> > $174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net is nearly
> > 30% faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146, much
> > faster single-core score as well):
> > https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/
> > 
> > $139 for a compatible motherboard:
> > https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/
> > 
> > I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you
> > think you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of virtual
> > processors that is much more than what you actually have, and as long
> > as you're not trying to go whole hog on every machine at the same time
> > you'll be fine, and even if you do, you'll still be better off with a
> > faster processor with a few fewer threads than an older slower cpu
> > with more.
> 
> ---
> 
> Several months ago I did some research on what a vCPU is.  I could not 
> find an exact answer.  What I came away thinking was a vCPU is equal to 
> a thread.  From what you are saying it sounds like a vCPU is a shared 
> resource, so there may be more vCPUs than actual threads?  Is there a 
> way I can determine the number of vCPUs a CPU will provide?
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> > 
> > On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > 
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> I was surfing the Inter Web when I happened upon a Xeon server CPU.
> >> It
> >> 
> >> is marked at $32.49 at Newegg.  It has 12 cores and 24 threads and
> >> has a
> >> 
> >> good benchmark score.
> >> 
> >> 
> > https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Silver+4116+%40+2.10GHz&id=3179
> >> 
> >> https://www.newegg.com/p/274-000A-007K2?Description=Xeon
> >> 
> >> In the future at some point I would like to build something with 20
> >> plus
> >> 
> >> or minus cores and 40 threads more or less for Proxmox.  This would
> >> be
> >> 
> >> over kills because I only need 1 or 2 VMs active at one time...
> >> maybe 3
> >> 
> >> in an extreme situation.
> >> 
> >> This 12 core/24 thread CPU with 64Gb of Ram and a 1Tb SSD would
> >> really
> >> 
> >> be more resources than I would ever need.  Off the top of my head
> >> this
> >> 
> >> means I might be able to build a d

Re: Server CPU

[greg zegan via PLUG-discuss]

 Hello,  I appreciate this topic.  I have been wondering for a while now if 
there is an affordable home server out there for EXSi and such.  Is there any 
way for someone to come up with a few choices for people like me?  Is there a 
low end, mid range, and high end home server for someone to list with parts or 
suggested parts?
thanks,Greg
On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 01:01:13 PM MST, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss 
 wrote:  
 
 Thanks!!

On 2023-07-20 11:36, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> I personally wouldn't even go for a used server. They're generally
> loud, and even when they aren't they use much more electricity than
> what you would get from a consumer platform. There's really no benefit
> unless you have room in your house to make a real server room with
> racks and the electrical capacity to go along with it.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
> 
>> the downside for these processors is their mainboards are still very
>> pricy to buy. much more than the CPU itself. you are almost better
>> off looking for and buying a refurbished server which you can get
>> for almost ludicrously inexpensive prices.
>> 
>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 1:56 PM Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore --
>> it's of the same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e.
>> skylake). It also uses a server socket, so the only motherboards
>> you're going to be able to find are server motherboards. Those are
>> going to be expensive and/or have other quirks, such as requiring a
>> vendor specific heatsink, or a vendor-specific power supply, or take
>> 5 minutes to start up, etc.
>> 
>> You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and
>> motherboard, for instance here's a combination that is relatively
>> cheap:
>> 
>> $174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net [1] is
>> nearly 30% faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146,
>> much faster single-core score as well):
>> 
>> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/
>> 
>> $139 for a compatible motherboard:
>> 
>> 
> https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/
>> 
>> I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you
>> think you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of
>> virtual processors that is much more than what you actually have,
>> and as long as you're not trying to go whole hog on every machine at
>> the same time you'll be fine, and even if you do, you'll still be
>> better off with a faster processor with a few fewer threads than an
>> older slower cpu with more.
>> 
>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I was surfing the Inter Web when I happened upon a Xeon server CPU.
>> It
>> 
>> is marked at $32.49 at Newegg.  It has 12 cores and 24 threads and
>> has a
>> 
>> good benchmark score.
>> 
>> 
> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Silver+4116+%40+2.10GHz&id=3179
>> 
>> https://www.newegg.com/p/274-000A-007K2?Description=Xeon
>> 
>> In the future at some point I would like to build something with 20
>> plus
>> 
>> or minus cores and 40 threads more or less for Proxmox.  This would
>> be
>> 
>> over kills because I only need 1 or 2 VMs active at one time...
>> maybe 3
>> 
>> in an extreme situation.
>> 
>> This 12 core/24 thread CPU with 64Gb of Ram and a 1Tb SSD would
>> really
>> 
>> be more resources than I would ever need.  Off the top of my head
>> this
>> 
>> means I might be able to build a decent Proxmox server for $500 -
>> $600.
>> 
>> I do not need fancy video except for one VM that might be running
>> Win 10
>> 
>> or 11...  I assume a server grade CPU would handle Win 10 and 11?
>> 
>> Am I on the right track?
>> 
>> Thank You For Your Feedback!!
>> 
>> Keith
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> 
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> 
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> 
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> 
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> 
> --
> 
> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
> rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.
> 
> Stephen
> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> --
> [1] http://cpubenchmark.net
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
---
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To subscribe,

Re: Server CPU

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

Thanks!!

On 2023-07-20 11:36, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:

I personally wouldn't even go for a used server. They're generally
loud, and even when they aren't they use much more electricity than
what you would get from a consumer platform. There's really no benefit
unless you have room in your house to make a real server room with
racks and the electrical capacity to go along with it.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:


the downside for these processors is their mainboards are still very
pricy to buy. much more than the CPU itself. you are almost better
off looking for and buying a refurbished server which you can get
for almost ludicrously inexpensive prices.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 1:56 PM Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:

The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore --
it's of the same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e.
skylake). It also uses a server socket, so the only motherboards
you're going to be able to find are server motherboards. Those are
going to be expensive and/or have other quirks, such as requiring a
vendor specific heatsink, or a vendor-specific power supply, or take
5 minutes to start up, etc.

You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and
motherboard, for instance here's a combination that is relatively
cheap:

$174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net [1] is
nearly 30% faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146,
much faster single-core score as well):



https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/


$139 for a compatible motherboard:



https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/


I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you
think you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of
virtual processors that is much more than what you actually have,
and as long as you're not trying to go whole hog on every machine at
the same time you'll be fine, and even if you do, you'll still be
better off with a faster processor with a few fewer threads than an
older slower cpu with more.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
wrote:

Hi,

I was surfing the Inter Web when I happened upon a Xeon server CPU.
It

is marked at $32.49 at Newegg.  It has 12 cores and 24 threads and
has a

good benchmark score.



https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Silver+4116+%40+2.10GHz&id=3179


https://www.newegg.com/p/274-000A-007K2?Description=Xeon

In the future at some point I would like to build something with 20
plus

or minus cores and 40 threads more or less for Proxmox.  This would
be

over kills because I only need 1 or 2 VMs active at one time...
maybe 3

in an extreme situation.

This 12 core/24 thread CPU with 64Gb of Ram and a 1Tb SSD would
really

be more resources than I would ever need.  Off the top of my head
this

means I might be able to build a decent Proxmox server for $500 -
$600.

I do not need fancy video except for one VM that might be running
Win 10

or 11...  I assume a server grade CPU would handle Win 10 and 11?

Am I on the right track?

Thank You For Your Feedback!!

Keith

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--

A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

Stephen



Links:
--
[1] http://cpubenchmark.net
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Re: Server CPU

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

Ok, Thanks!!

On 2023-07-20 10:59, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote:

the downside for these processors is their mainboards are still very
pricy to buy. much more than the CPU itself. you are almost better off
looking for and buying a refurbished server which you can get for
almost ludicrously inexpensive prices.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 1:56 PM Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss
 wrote:


The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore --
it's of the same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e.
skylake). It also uses a server socket, so the only motherboards
you're going to be able to find are server motherboards. Those are
going to be expensive and/or have other quirks, such as requiring a
vendor specific heatsink, or a vendor-specific power supply, or take
5 minutes to start up, etc.

You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and
motherboard, for instance here's a combination that is relatively
cheap:

$174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net [1] is
nearly 30% faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146,
much faster single-core score as well):


https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/


$139 for a compatible motherboard:


https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/


I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you
think you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of
virtual processors that is much more than what you actually have,
and as long as you're not trying to go whole hog on every machine at
the same time you'll be fine, and even if you do, you'll still be
better off with a faster processor with a few fewer threads than an
older slower cpu with more.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
wrote:


Hi,

I was surfing the Inter Web when I happened upon a Xeon server
CPU.  It

is marked at $32.49 at Newegg.  It has 12 cores and 24 threads and
has a

good benchmark score.





https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Silver+4116+%40+2.10GHz&id=3179


https://www.newegg.com/p/274-000A-007K2?Description=Xeon

In the future at some point I would like to build something with
20 plus

or minus cores and 40 threads more or less for Proxmox.  This
would be

over kills because I only need 1 or 2 VMs active at one time...
maybe 3

in an extreme situation.

This 12 core/24 thread CPU with 64Gb of Ram and a 1Tb SSD would
really

be more resources than I would ever need.  Off the top of my head
this

means I might be able to build a decent Proxmox server for $500 -
$600.

I do not need fancy video except for one VM that might be running
Win 10

or 11...  I assume a server grade CPU would handle Win 10 and 11?

Am I on the right track?

Thank You For Your Feedback!!

Keith
is
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--
A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

Stephen



Links:
--
[1] http://cpubenchmark.net
---
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Re: Server CPU

[Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss]

On 2023-07-20 10:55, Ryan Petris wrote:

The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore -- it's
of the same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e. skylake).
It also uses a server socket, so the only motherboards you're going to
be able to find are server motherboards. Those are going to be
expensive and/or have other quirks, such as requiring a vendor
specific heatsink, or a vendor-specific power supply, or take 5
minutes to start up, etc.

You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and motherboard,
for instance here's a combination that is relatively cheap:

$174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net is nearly
30% faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146, much
faster single-core score as well):
https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/

$139 for a compatible motherboard:
https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/

I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you
think you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of virtual
processors that is much more than what you actually have, and as long
as you're not trying to go whole hog on every machine at the same time
you'll be fine, and even if you do, you'll still be better off with a
faster processor with a few fewer threads than an older slower cpu
with more.


---

Several months ago I did some research on what a vCPU is.  I could not 
find an exact answer.  What I came away thinking was a vCPU is equal to 
a thread.  From what you are saying it sounds like a vCPU is a shared 
resource, so there may be more vCPUs than actual threads?  Is there a 
way I can determine the number of vCPUs a CPU will provide?



---



On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:


Hi,

I was surfing the Inter Web when I happened upon a Xeon server CPU.
It

is marked at $32.49 at Newegg.  It has 12 cores and 24 threads and
has a

good benchmark score.



https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Silver+4116+%40+2.10GHz&id=3179


https://www.newegg.com/p/274-000A-007K2?Description=Xeon

In the future at some point I would like to build something with 20
plus

or minus cores and 40 threads more or less for Proxmox.  This would
be

over kills because I only need 1 or 2 VMs active at one time...
maybe 3

in an extreme situation.

This 12 core/24 thread CPU with 64Gb of Ram and a 1Tb SSD would
really

be more resources than I would ever need.  Off the top of my head
this

means I might be able to build a decent Proxmox server for $500 -
$600.

I do not need fancy video except for one VM that might be running
Win 10

or 11...  I assume a server grade CPU would handle Win 10 and 11?

Am I on the right track?

Thank You For Your Feedback!!

Keith

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Re: Server CPU

[Ryan Rix via PLUG-discuss]

A few months ago I finished building a new homelab machine around a pair of 
Xeon E5-2697 (24 cores, 48 hyperthreads, ivybridge) and I've been really happy 
with it. You can see the price breakdown and part list here 
https://arcology.garden/my/homeserver, served from the very machine over 
Tailscale.

Throwing together a proper home machine around decade-old Xeon parts is pretty 
easy and IMO worth it, but I would buy through eBay instead of Newegg. These 
were 1$+ computers a decade ago that got amortized out, it's not that "no 
one" wants them, it's that they've been written off by corporate IT departments 
and replaced with new capex so they end up parted out and sitting around a 
bunch of resellers' warehouses. They make perfectly fine homelab machines today 
if you do it right.

My build pulls 200-300W under idle/normal load, has 256gib of ECC RAM, it is 
basically silent (on the same order as my desktop in the same case) in a 4U 
case with some Noctua CPU fans and tune-able 120mm/80mm case-fans, and cost 
less than 1000$ to build excluding harddrives. It sits in my living room racked 
with my desktop and networking gear. Oh and it supports VT-d for VM hardware 
PCI/GPU passthrough, though I am not using that right now since it was a bit 
flakey on my desktop. I might refresh my desktop at some point, but I really 
don't think I'll need to buy another computer for a long time.

The CPUs are about as performant as my i7-7700k desktop at the same TDP, but 
with 4x as much RAM and at 75% the cost. My build cluster is ~50% faster than 
it was running on my desktop due to the much higher thread count, and the 
increased amount of IO bandwidth both to the disks and to the memory, even 
though the RAM is only DDR-3. I did the math comparing this to a Ryzen 7 build 
and the price/TDP/power/thread count is still roughly equivalent, especially 
when considering the price of DDR-4 or DDR-5 RAM. Moore wept.

The main downside of the direction I went is that the Supermicro motherboard I 
chose with 4x 10/1000 ethernet  doesn't have a standard ATX or E-ATX footprint 
but a non-standard "EE-ATX" which is screw-compatible with ATX but is wider, so 
I had to buy a slightly more expensive SFX PSU than the one listed in the link 
above to make room in the case, so be careful to source compatible 
board/chassis.

https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/wiki/hardware/
https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/wiki/buyingguide/

these are useful guides for picking and sourcing affordable and compatible 
motherboard and CPU combinations. I worked off of these and in conversation 
with a few acquaintances I know who had done similar builds in the past. Make 
sure you buy the right CPU coolers for your socket type, Noctua makes one for 
damn near every socket. and don't spend too much on RAM. And don't buy any case 
smaller than a 3U, that's when they start to get loud.

Ryan

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 11:36 AM, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> I personally wouldn't even go for a used server. They're generally loud, and 
> even when they aren't they use much more electricity than what you would get 
> from a consumer platform. There's really no benefit unless you have room in 
> your house to make a real server room with racks and the electrical capacity 
> to go along with it.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
>> the downside for these processors is their mainboards are still very pricy 
>> to buy. much more than the CPU itself. you are almost better off looking for 
>> and buying a refurbished server which you can get for almost ludicrously 
>> inexpensive prices.
>> 
>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 1:56 PM Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss 
>>  wrote:
>>> __
>>> The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore -- it's of 
>>> the same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e. skylake). It also 
>>> uses a server socket, so the only motherboards you're going to be able to 
>>> find are server motherboards. Those are going to be expensive and/or have 
>>> other quirks, such as requiring a vendor specific heatsink, or a 
>>> vendor-specific power supply, or take 5 minutes to start up, etc.
>>> 
>>> You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and motherboard, for 
>>> instance here's a combination that is relatively cheap:
>>> 
>>> $174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net is nearly 30% 
>>> faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146, much faster 
>>> single-core score as well):
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/
>>> 
>>> $139 for a compatible motherboard:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/
>>> 
>>> I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you think 
>>> you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of virtual processors 
>>> that is much more than what you actually have, and as long as you're not 
>>> trying to go whole hog on every m

Re: Server CPU

[Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss]

I personally wouldn't even go for a used server. They're generally loud, and 
even when they aren't they use much more electricity than what you would get 
from a consumer platform. There's really no benefit unless you have room in 
your house to make a real server room with racks and the electrical capacity to 
go along with it.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
> the downside for these processors is their mainboards are still very pricy to 
> buy. much more than the CPU itself. you are almost better off looking for and 
> buying a refurbished server which you can get for almost ludicrously 
> inexpensive prices.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 1:56 PM Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss 
>  wrote:
>> __
>> The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore -- it's of 
>> the same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e. skylake). It also 
>> uses a server socket, so the only motherboards you're going to be able to 
>> find are server motherboards. Those are going to be expensive and/or have 
>> other quirks, such as requiring a vendor specific heatsink, or a 
>> vendor-specific power supply, or take 5 minutes to start up, etc.
>> 
>> You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and motherboard, for 
>> instance here's a combination that is relatively cheap:
>> 
>> $174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net is nearly 30% 
>> faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146, much faster 
>> single-core score as well):
>> https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/
>> 
>> $139 for a compatible motherboard:
>> https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/
>> 
>> I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you think 
>> you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of virtual processors 
>> that is much more than what you actually have, and as long as you're not 
>> trying to go whole hog on every machine at the same time you'll be fine, and 
>> even if you do, you'll still be better off with a faster processor with a 
>> few fewer threads than an older slower cpu with more.
>> 
>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I was surfing the Inter Web when I happened upon a Xeon server CPU.  It 
>>> is marked at $32.49 at Newegg.  It has 12 cores and 24 threads and has a 
>>> good benchmark score.  
>>> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Silver+4116+%40+2.10GHz&id=3179
>>> 
>>> https://www.newegg.com/p/274-000A-007K2?Description=Xeon
>>> 
>>> In the future at some point I would like to build something with 20 plus 
>>> or minus cores and 40 threads more or less for Proxmox.  This would be 
>>> over kills because I only need 1 or 2 VMs active at one time... maybe 3 
>>> in an extreme situation.
>>> 
>>> This 12 core/24 thread CPU with 64Gb of Ram and a 1Tb SSD would really 
>>> be more resources than I would ever need.  Off the top of my head this 
>>> means I might be able to build a decent Proxmox server for $500 - $600.
>>> 
>>> I do not need fancy video except for one VM that might be running Win 10 
>>> or 11...  I assume a server grade CPU would handle Win 10 and 11?
>>> 
>>> Am I on the right track?
>>> 
>>> Thank You For Your Feedback!!
>>> 
>>> Keith
>>> ---
>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> 
> 
> --
> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from 
> rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.
> 
> Stephen
---
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Re: Server CPU

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

the downside for these processors is their mainboards are still very pricy
to buy. much more than the CPU itself. you are almost better off looking
for and buying a refurbished server which you can get for almost
ludicrously inexpensive prices.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 1:56 PM Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore -- it's of
> the same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e. skylake). It also
> uses a server socket, so the only motherboards you're going to be able to
> find are server motherboards. Those are going to be expensive and/or have
> other quirks, such as requiring a vendor specific heatsink, or a
> vendor-specific power supply, or take 5 minutes to start up, etc.
>
> You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and motherboard, for
> instance here's a combination that is relatively cheap:
>
> $174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net is nearly 30%
> faster than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146, much faster
> single-core score as well):
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/
>
> $139 for a compatible motherboard:
> https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/
>
> I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you think
> you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of virtual processors
> that is much more than what you actually have, and as long as you're not
> trying to go whole hog on every machine at the same time you'll be fine,
> and even if you do, you'll still be better off with a faster processor with
> a few fewer threads than an older slower cpu with more.
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I was surfing the Inter Web when I happened upon a Xeon server CPU.  It
> is marked at $32.49 at Newegg.  It has 12 cores and 24 threads and has a
> good benchmark score.
>
> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Silver+4116+%40+2.10GHz&id=3179
>
> https://www.newegg.com/p/274-000A-007K2?Description=Xeon
>
> In the future at some point I would like to build something with 20 plus
> or minus cores and 40 threads more or less for Proxmox.  This would be
> over kills because I only need 1 or 2 VMs active at one time... maybe 3
> in an extreme situation.
>
> This 12 core/24 thread CPU with 64Gb of Ram and a 1Tb SSD would really
> be more resources than I would ever need.  Off the top of my head this
> means I might be able to build a decent Proxmox server for $500 - $600.
>
> I do not need fancy video except for one VM that might be running Win 10
> or 11...  I assume a server grade CPU would handle Win 10 and 11?
>
> Am I on the right track?
>
> Thank You For Your Feedback!!
>
> Keith
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>


-- 
A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

Stephen
---
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To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
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Re: Server CPU

[Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss]

The CPU's cheap because it's old and no one wants them anymore -- it's of the 
same generation as 6000 series intel processors (i.e. skylake). It also uses a 
server socket, so the only motherboards you're going to be able to find are 
server motherboards. Those are going to be expensive and/or have other quirks, 
such as requiring a vendor specific heatsink, or a vendor-specific power 
supply, or take 5 minutes to start up, etc.

You'd be better off spending money on a last-gen cpu and motherboard, for 
instance here's a combination that is relatively cheap:

$174 for an i5-12400, which according to cpubenchmark.net is nearly 30% faster 
than the Xeon you linked (score of 19501 vs 15146, much faster single-core 
score as well):
https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-12400-Desktop-Processor-Cache/dp/B09NMPD8V2/

$139 for a compatible motherboard:
https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-B760M-DS3H-AX-Motherboard/dp/B0BSP61QZC/

I also wouldn't pay so much attention to the number of "threads" you think 
you'll need; you can run many VMs with a total number of virtual processors 
that is much more than what you actually have, and as long as you're not trying 
to go whole hog on every machine at the same time you'll be fine, and even if 
you do, you'll still be better off with a faster processor with a few fewer 
threads than an older slower cpu with more.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I was surfing the Inter Web when I happened upon a Xeon server CPU.  It 
> is marked at $32.49 at Newegg.  It has 12 cores and 24 threads and has a 
> good benchmark score.  
> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+Silver+4116+%40+2.10GHz&id=3179
> 
> https://www.newegg.com/p/274-000A-007K2?Description=Xeon
> 
> In the future at some point I would like to build something with 20 plus 
> or minus cores and 40 threads more or less for Proxmox.  This would be 
> over kills because I only need 1 or 2 VMs active at one time... maybe 3 
> in an extreme situation.
> 
> This 12 core/24 thread CPU with 64Gb of Ram and a 1Tb SSD would really 
> be more resources than I would ever need.  Off the top of my head this 
> means I might be able to build a decent Proxmox server for $500 - $600.
> 
> I do not need fancy video except for one VM that might be running Win 10 
> or 11...  I assume a server grade CPU would handle Win 10 and 11?
> 
> Am I on the right track?
> 
> Thank You For Your Feedback!!
> 
> Keith
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> 
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