Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Ronald Oussoren]

On 24 Apr, 2010, at 18:15, Michael Foord wrote:

> On 18/04/2010 15:13, Ronald Oussoren wrote:
>> On 14 Apr, 2010, at 23:37, Michael Foord wrote:
>> 
>>   
>>> On 14/04/2010 23:32, Greg Ewing wrote:
>>> 
 Michael Foord wrote:
   
> Building Python requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to be 
> installed. Even then, building a full version of Python - with *all* the 
> C extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a trivial task.
> 
 What's non-trivial about it? I usually find that the normal
 "./configure; make; make install" sequence works fine without
 any further intervention.
 
 If you want a framework installation you have to read the
 README and use a couple of extra options, but it still works
 very smoothly.
 
   
>>> A build on my machine produces output similar to:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Python build finished, but the necessary bits to build these modules were 
>>> not found:
>>> _bsddb dl gdbm
>>> imageoplinuxaudiodev  ossaudiodev
>>> readline   spwd   sunaudiodev
>>> To find the necessary bits, look in setup.py in detect_modules() for the 
>>> module's name.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Failed to build these modules:
>>> _tkinter
>>> 
>>> Obviously many of those are not meant to be built and I usually build 
>>> Python for running the test suite - so I don't care about not having 
>>> Tkinter. A new user of Python would most certainly care about not having 
>>> Tkinter.
>>> 
>> 
>> What's the OS version? Do you have a copy of Tcl/Tk in /Library/Frameworks?
>>   
> 
> 10.6.3 and yes I have Tcl and Tk in /Library/Frameworks. How do I determine 
> which versions they are?

$ ls -l /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions
total 8
drwxr-xr-x  9 sysadmin  admin  306 Oct  6  2009 8.5
lrwxr-xr-x  1 sysadmin  admin3 Oct 25  2009 Current -> 8.5

As you can see, my system has Tcl 8.5.

Ronald



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 24/04/2010 22:16, Michael Foord wrote:

On 24/04/2010 21:50, David Bolen wrote:

Michael Foord  writes:

Hmmm... looks like a 32 / 64 bit issue, which I believe may be the
expected result when trying to build on Snow Leopard (?).

I think so - I haven't tried a 64-bit build myself, but there's a
comment in setup.py indicating that none of the Tcl/Tk framework
builds support 64-bit.

So I suppose you'd have to build 32-bit if you wanted a working
_tkinter.


Sorry for my ignorance - how do I force a 32 bit build?



Ok, so the following configure command line works and successfully 
builds Tkinter:


./configure --prefix=/dev/null --with-pydebug --enable-universalsdk

All the best,

Michael Foord

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 24/04/2010 21:50, David Bolen wrote:

Michael Foord  writes:

   

Hmmm... looks like a 32 / 64 bit issue, which I believe may be the
expected result when trying to build on Snow Leopard (?).
 

I think so - I haven't tried a 64-bit build myself, but there's a
comment in setup.py indicating that none of the Tcl/Tk framework
builds support 64-bit.

So I suppose you'd have to build 32-bit if you wanted a working
_tkinter.

   

Sorry for my ignorance - how do I force a 32 bit build?

Michael



-- David

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[David Bolen]

Michael Foord  writes:

> Hmmm... looks like a 32 / 64 bit issue, which I believe may be the
> expected result when trying to build on Snow Leopard (?).

I think so - I haven't tried a 64-bit build myself, but there's a
comment in setup.py indicating that none of the Tcl/Tk framework
builds support 64-bit.

So I suppose you'd have to build 32-bit if you wanted a working
_tkinter.

-- David

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 24/04/2010 21:34, David Bolen wrote:

Michael Foord  writes:

   

10.6.3 and yes I have Tcl and Tk in /Library/Frameworks. How do I
determine which versions they are?
 

You can use "info patchlevel" in tclsh - assuming you're running a
tclsh linked to your /Library version (a normal Tcl install puts this
in /usr/local/bin I think).

   


$ tclsh
% info patchlevel
8.5.7


Or, tcl.h (in the Headers folder beneath the framework install) has
TCL_VERSION and TCL_PATCH_LEVEL defines near the top of the file.

Given that your error is a failure to build and not a skip, it sounds
like setup is finding Tcl/Tk.  From a quick glance, it looks like
tkinter may also require the X11 headers (you'd have to have installed
X11 separately) - do you have output in your log from what exactly
is failing when that module attempts to build?
   


Hmmm... looks like a 32 / 64 bit issue, which I believe may be the 
expected result when trying to build on Snow Leopard (?).


i686-apple-darwin10-gcc-4.2.1: -framework: linker input file unused 
because linking not done
i686-apple-darwin10-gcc-4.2.1: Tk: linker input file unused because 
linking not done
ld: warning: in /Library/Frameworks//Tcl.framework/Tcl, missing required 
architecture x86_64 in file
ld: warning: in /Library/Frameworks//Tk.framework/Tk, missing required 
architecture x86_64 in file
*** WARNING: renaming "_tkinter" since importing it failed: 
dlopen(build/lib.macosx-10.4-x86_64-2.7-pydebug/_tkinter.so, 2): Symbol 
not found: _TclFreeObj
Referenced from: 
/compile/python-trunk/build/lib.macosx-10.4-x86_64-2.7-pydebug/_tkinter.so

Expected in: dynamic lookup

I think my Tk/Tcl install came from an Activestate installer.

Michael


-- David

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[David Bolen]

Michael Foord  writes:

> 10.6.3 and yes I have Tcl and Tk in /Library/Frameworks. How do I
> determine which versions they are?

You can use "info patchlevel" in tclsh - assuming you're running a
tclsh linked to your /Library version (a normal Tcl install puts this
in /usr/local/bin I think).

Or, tcl.h (in the Headers folder beneath the framework install) has
TCL_VERSION and TCL_PATCH_LEVEL defines near the top of the file.

Given that your error is a failure to build and not a skip, it sounds
like setup is finding Tcl/Tk.  From a quick glance, it looks like
tkinter may also require the X11 headers (you'd have to have installed
X11 separately) - do you have output in your log from what exactly
is failing when that module attempts to build?

-- David

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 18/04/2010 15:13, Ronald Oussoren wrote:

On 14 Apr, 2010, at 23:37, Michael Foord wrote:

   

On 14/04/2010 23:32, Greg Ewing wrote:
 

Michael Foord wrote:
   

Building Python requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to be 
installed. Even then, building a full version of Python - with *all* the C 
extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a trivial task.
 

What's non-trivial about it? I usually find that the normal
"./configure; make; make install" sequence works fine without
any further intervention.

If you want a framework installation you have to read the
README and use a couple of extra options, but it still works
very smoothly.

   

A build on my machine produces output similar to:


Python build finished, but the necessary bits to build these modules were not 
found:
_bsddb dl gdbm
imageoplinuxaudiodev  ossaudiodev
readline   spwd   sunaudiodev
To find the necessary bits, look in setup.py in detect_modules() for the 
module's name.


Failed to build these modules:
_tkinter

Obviously many of those are not meant to be built and I usually build Python 
for running the test suite - so I don't care about not having Tkinter. A new 
user of Python would most certainly care about not having Tkinter.
 


What's the OS version? Do you have a copy of Tcl/Tk in /Library/Frameworks?
   


10.6.3 and yes I have Tcl and Tk in /Library/Frameworks. How do I 
determine which versions they are?


All the best,

Michael


Ronald

   



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[David Bolen]

Ronald Oussoren  writes:

> On 18 Apr, 2010, at 17:17, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>
>> Ronald Oussoren wrote:
>>>
>>> That *is* trivial: use Mac/BuildScript/build-installer.py on OSX 10.5. 
>> 
>> Hmm. When I tried it (on some 2.5 release), it took me two days until it
>> produced something.
>
> It should be much improved in 2.6 and later, please file a bug if it
> doesn't work for you.

For what it's worth, the trunk currently takes ~25 minutes on my
relatively modest Mini, when run in parallel with some buildbot stuff,
and with third-party sources already downloaded.  More or less evenly
split among third-party packages, the interpreter itself, and then
docs/framework/disk image creation.

-- David

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Ronald Oussoren]

On 18 Apr, 2010, at 17:17, Martin v. Löwis wrote:

> Ronald Oussoren wrote:
>> On 15 Apr, 2010, at 6:36, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>> 
>>> Greg Ewing wrote:
 Michael Foord wrote:
> Building Python requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to be
> installed. Even then, building a full version of Python - with *all*
> the C extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a trivial
> task.
 What's non-trivial about it? 
>>> Building a DMG file, in a way that the output will actually work on most
>>> other systems.
>> 
>> That *is* trivial: use Mac/BuildScript/build-installer.py on OSX 10.5. 
> 
> Hmm. When I tried it (on some 2.5 release), it took me two days until it
> produced something.

It should be much improved in 2.6 and later, please file a bug if it doesn't 
work for you.

Ronald
> 
> Regards,
> Martin



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

Ronald Oussoren wrote:
> On 15 Apr, 2010, at 6:36, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
> 
>> Greg Ewing wrote:
>>> Michael Foord wrote:
 Building Python requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to be
 installed. Even then, building a full version of Python - with *all*
 the C extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a trivial
 task.
>>> What's non-trivial about it? 
>> Building a DMG file, in a way that the output will actually work on most
>> other systems.
> 
> That *is* trivial: use Mac/BuildScript/build-installer.py on OSX 10.5. 

Hmm. When I tried it (on some 2.5 release), it took me two days until it
produced something.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Ronald Oussoren]

On 15 Apr, 2010, at 6:36, Martin v. Löwis wrote:

> Greg Ewing wrote:
>> Michael Foord wrote:
>>> Building Python requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to be
>>> installed. Even then, building a full version of Python - with *all*
>>> the C extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a trivial
>>> task.
>> 
>> What's non-trivial about it? 
> 
> Building a DMG file, in a way that the output will actually work on most
> other systems.

That *is* trivial: use Mac/BuildScript/build-installer.py on OSX 10.5.  Making 
sure that unrelated changes don't accidently break the OSX build can be 
non-trivial though...

That doesn't work with the py3k trunk at the moment, I just noticed that 
framework builds are broken there. I've filed issue #8441 for that and am 
working on a fix.

Ronald
> 
> Regards,
> Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Ronald Oussoren]

On 15 Apr, 2010, at 0:12, Zvezdan Petkovic wrote:

> On Apr 14, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
> 
>>> I think you just need to supply to configure
>>> 
>>> MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET=10.4
>>> 
>>> and have the appropriate SDK installed with Xcode.
>> 
>> Wouldn't that break 10.3 compatibility (seel below)?
> 
> 
> I was replying to your point about 10.4 build.
> Naturally, if you want a 10.3 build you'd pass 10.3 as the target and would 
> have to have appropriate Xcode SDK installed.

You don't have to install an SDK to be able to build binaries that run on older 
versions. The reason the binary installer gets build with the 10.4u SDK is that 
the default compiler on OSX 10.4 cannot build universal binaries without that 
SDK.

> 
> 
 Unfortunately, Apple manages to break compatibility and portability
 with every release, which makes this particular build task s
 tricky. You have to make all kinds of decisions and compromises
 where are really difficult to keep track of.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hmm.  Apple provided compatibility SDK and documented it.
>>> 
>>> The only compromise I see in this build process right now is that we
>>> are building a Panther (10.3) compatible installer, while Mac OS X is
>>> a certified UNIX starting with 10.5.
>> 
>> I think there are more issues. People want a fat binary that supports
>> AMD64 along with x86, yet building such a binary requires an SDK that
>> won't support PPC anymore - right?
> 
> Yes.

No. It is possible to build a binary that supports ppc, ppc64, x86 and x86_64, 
and that's even possible using a single additional configure switch. That 
binary will require OSX 10.5 to run though due to using symbols that aren't 
available on earlier versions of OSX (thanks to the better UNIX API 
compatibility in 10.5).

PPC64 is not supported on OSX 10.6 though.

> 
> x86_64, i386, and ppc are supported even in the Xcode supplied with the 
> latest Mac OS X 10.6.  Only ppc64 is not.  So, ppc is not an issue.
> 
> The problem is that enforcing backward compatibility with 10.3 and 10.4 makes 
> 64-bit Intel architecture not feasible.
> 
> You are right, it is a compromise.
> We are making more users happy by providing a 32-bit installer for a wider 
> range of OS releases.
> 
> However, if we want a more modern certified UNIX, 64-bit installer, then 
> we'll have to draw a line and stop supporting older OS releases.
> 
> Just as we stop supporting older releases of Python.

I want to provide 2 installers for Python 2.7 and 3.2:

1) The current 32-bit only installer that runs on OSX 10.3 or later

2) An installer that supports ppc, x86 and x86_64 and requires OSX 10.5 or later

The latter would be the one that most users would want to use. Note that the 
second installer does not support ppc64 and three reasons: (1) PPC64 is a dead 
end on OSX, (2) libffi has issues on darwin/ppc64 that probably affect ctypes 
and (3) I do not have regular access to ppc64 machines and can therefore not 
provide any support for that platform.

Ronald



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Ronald Oussoren]

On 14 Apr, 2010, at 23:37, Michael Foord wrote:

> On 14/04/2010 23:32, Greg Ewing wrote:
>> Michael Foord wrote:
>>> Building Python requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to be 
>>> installed. Even then, building a full version of Python - with *all* the C 
>>> extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a trivial task.
>> 
>> What's non-trivial about it? I usually find that the normal
>> "./configure; make; make install" sequence works fine without
>> any further intervention.
>> 
>> If you want a framework installation you have to read the
>> README and use a couple of extra options, but it still works
>> very smoothly.
>> 
> A build on my machine produces output similar to:
> 
> 
> Python build finished, but the necessary bits to build these modules were not 
> found:
> _bsddb dl gdbm
> imageoplinuxaudiodev  ossaudiodev
> readline   spwd   sunaudiodev
> To find the necessary bits, look in setup.py in detect_modules() for the 
> module's name.
> 
> 
> Failed to build these modules:
> _tkinter
> 
> Obviously many of those are not meant to be built and I usually build Python 
> for running the test suite - so I don't care about not having Tkinter. A new 
> user of Python would most certainly care about not having Tkinter.


What's the OS version? Do you have a copy of Tcl/Tk in /Library/Frameworks? 

Ronald



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Steve Holden]

Bill Janssen wrote:
> Martin v. Löwis  wrote:
[..]
>> It would take even more expertise to capture the remaining pieces in the
>> script, too, and no living person has that much expertise to write the
>> script (perhaps there are one or two people, and they don't have the time).
> 
> Well, God forbid they should ever be hit by a bus!  This kind of thing
> needs to be written down.
> 
+1

regards
 Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Steve Holden]

Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>> Michael Foord  wrote:
>>
>>> Building the Mac installer requires volunteer time which I'm not sure
>>> that more hardware will fix - compiling a full build of Python for Mac
>>> OS X (with all the Python modules like Tkinter etc) requires expertise
>>> which only a few people have.
>> That's nuts.  Why isn't this expertise captured in the form of a script?
> 
> Much of it is, but it still takes expertise to run the script.
> 
> It would take even more expertise to capture the remaining pieces in the
> script, too, and no living person has that much expertise to write the
> script (perhaps there are one or two people, and they don't have the time).
> 
I take it you don't mean to imply that there's a dead person somewhere
with the necessary expertise? [ducks].

regards
 Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 04:41, Ned Deily  wrote:

> In article <4bc697d2.4020...@v.loewis.de>,
>  "Martin v. Lowis"  wrote:
> > Greg Ewing wrote:
> > > Michael Foord wrote:
> > >> Building Python requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to be
> > >> installed. Even then, building a full version of Python - with *all*
> > >> the C extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a trivial
> > >> task.
> > > What's non-trivial about it?
> > Building a DMG file, in a way that the output will actually work on most
> > other systems.
>
> As Ronald pointed out, the installer build script does all of the dirty
> work of building the install disk image (the .dmg file), including
> downloading and building necessary third-party libraries.   What isn't
> automatically checked at the moment is that the third-party Tk framework
> is in place during the build and that there isn't contamination from the
> build user's environment.  There is a patch in Issue5651 to do much of
> that.  It doesn't currently try to handle the possibility of MacPorts
> (/opt/local) and Fink (/sw) contamination.  I believe that issue should
> be addressed by the resolution of Issue7713.
>

I know for me the reason I have never tried to help with building the
binaries is I simply lack the expertise. I always build straight UNIX
versions of Python under OS X, so I have no experience with framework builds
(which is what the binary distribution is). Heck, I didn't even know about
the build script until just now since it's such a pain to build. Plus I
don't know if you can use a framework build from within your svn checkout
for testing, so I REALLY don't bother building a framework. And to top it
off I use the latest libraries of things to look for possible breakage.

I am sure I am not the only person who has all of these barriers preventing
them from using a framework build consistently.


>
> Keep in mind that Python on OS X supports the standard OS X
> multi-architecture (Intel vs PPC and/or 32-bit vs 64-bit executables in
> the same file) and multi-version features (the current installer builds
> are fully supported on 10.6, 10.5, and 10.4 and "best-effort" supported
> on 10.3 as well although building is not supported on 10.3) as well as
> "Unix" shared library vs OS X framework shared library configurations.
> That leads to a rather imposing matrix of potential build systems vs
> potential target systems.  For the most part, Apple provides excellent
> upward compatibility; downward is somewhat trickier.   OS X 10.6 (Snow
> Leopard) has complicated matters by the change to preferring 64-bit
> building and executing where possible.  For python builds, some build
> configurations that worked by default under 10.5 and earlier no longer
> do so on 10.6, primarily due to standard library modules that depend on
> APIs, in many cases deprecated ones, that are only available in 32-bit
> versions.  The old Macintosh modules comprise the biggest group of these
> and, while they have been removed in 3.x, they still remain in 2.x.  But
> there are some others as well, which explain most of the build issues
> Michael reported.  There are also newer versions of some open source
> libraries in 10.6 which cause problems for multi-version builds:
> openssl, for one, and Apple's 64-bit version of Tk 8.5.
>
> None of these problems are insolvable but with the very limited
> resources (i.e. people time) we've had for working on these issues, and
> when there have been so many other more critical problems, it has been
> easier up to now to stick with building on 10.5 (or even on 10.4 which I
> test build occasionally).  I think the single most important thing that
> can be done to help right now is to get a robust system of OS X
> buildbots going so that many of the critical problems can be detected up
> front rather than when one of us gets around to building and install
> testing the multi-arch and multi-version installers.  Since there are so
> many potential configurations, some thought needs to go into which would
> be of the most value.  I would say that the most important build
> configurations are: (1) 32-bit Intel/PPC framework on 10.5 (and
> eventually 10.6) targeted for 10.3 through 10.6 (the current installer
> config setup); and (2) 32-/64- Intel-only framework for 10.6;  followed
> by (3) 32-/64- Intel/PPC framework for 10.5 and 10.6.  Building the
> whole installer and testing on as many targeted systems as possible
> would be ideal but that adds more complexity to the automation (again,
> not insurmountable).  But even just doing framework multi-arch builds,
> installs, and tests (using the appropriate options) on only the build
> systems themselves without building an installer or third-party libs
> would go a long way towards catching many, if not most, problems early.
> I'd be happy to supply more detailed suggestions for specific
> configuration parameters for those interested in setting up buildbots.
> (There may be some delay, 

Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> If it were working that could be of use.  It would not be able to run OS 
> X 10.6 but having a 10.5 system PPC system as a buildbot would certainly 
> be useful; it should be fine for the default installer configuration 
> builds.  (Alas, I don't expect to be anywhere in the vicinity in the 
> foreseeable future.)

I think we could arrange to have somebody ship it somewhere, even across
the globe.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Ned Deily]

In article <19399.11323.946604.992...@montanaro.dyndns.org>,
 s...@pobox.com wrote:

> Ned> Any idea what type of machine it is and where it is currently
> Ned> located?
> 
> I seem to recall it is/was a G4 XServe.  My guess as to location would be at
> xs4all.nl.

If it were working that could be of use.  It would not be able to run OS 
X 10.6 but having a 10.5 system PPC system as a buildbot would certainly 
be useful; it should be fine for the default installer configuration 
builds.  (Alas, I don't expect to be anywhere in the vicinity in the 
foreseeable future.)

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 n...@acm.org

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

Ned Deily wrote:
> In article <4bc61278.7020...@v.loewis.de>,
>  "Martin v. Lowis"  wrote:
>> Ned Deily wrote:
>>> That *is* something that the PSF could help with.  I 
>>> would be happy to help with that myself, although my time to do so will 
>>> be very limited for the next few weeks.
>> The PSF still has a machine that was donated by Apple that once used to
>> be a build slave. Unfortunately, that machine had hardware problems (or
>> atleast appeared to have hardware problems). So if anybody would be
>> interested into maintaining it, please let us know.
> 
> Any idea what type of machine it is and where it is currently located?

No idea about the former, except that it is an XServe computer. It is
located in Amsterdam (in the Netherlands), in the XS4ALL facility.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

>>> What's non-trivial about it? 
>> Building a DMG file, in a way that the output will actually work on most
>> other systems.
> 
> As Ronald pointed out, the installer build script does all of the dirty 
> work of building the install disk image (the .dmg file), including 
> downloading and building necessary third-party libraries. 

Hmm. When I tried it last, it didn't do anything - it just crashed. I
then had to fix it, and also arrange to meet a certain number of
assumptions that it assumed but that had not been setup on my system.

This is some years ago, so I don't recall details.

> I think the single most important thing that 
> can be done to help right now is to get a robust system of OS X 
> buildbots going so that many of the critical problems can be detected up 
> front rather than when one of us gets around to building and install 
> testing the multi-arch and multi-version installers.

There is one build slave now up, contributed by David Bolen.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[skip]

Ned> Any idea what type of machine it is and where it is currently
Ned> located?

I seem to recall it is/was a G4 XServe.  My guess as to location would be at
xs4all.nl.

Skip

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

Whilst making Python easier to build on the Mac is certainly a worthy 
goal, the point of my post was to demonstrate (in reply to an email by 
Greg Ewing) *why* building a *full* Python from source was non-trivial. 
I personally only build Python from source to test changes to 
core-Python and am happy with the Python binary installers for the Mac - 
once they arrive. :-)


All the best,

Michael

On 15/04/2010 14:18, Ned Deily wrote:

In article<4bc63599.5020...@voidspace.org.uk>,
  Michael Foord  wrote:
   

A build on my machine produces output similar to:


Python build finished, but the necessary bits to build these modules
were not found:
_bsddb
 

third-party (Sleepycat) library needed (see the installer script)

   

dl
 

only available for 32-bit

   

gdbm
 

third-party library needed (not supplied in the installer build)

   

imageop
 

only available for 32-bit (and removed in 3.x)

   

linuxaudiodev  ossaudiodev
 

neither supported on OS X

   

readline
 

requires either GNU readline lib (not included with OS X) or (with
2.6.5, trunk, or py3k) can now use OS X editline (libedit) replacement
when targeting for 10.5 or 10.6 (add MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET=10.5 or
10.6 to ./configure arguments).

   

spwd   sunaudiodev
 

neither supported on OS X

   

Failed to build these modules:
_tkinter
 

currently only supported for 32-bit archs as there was no 64-bit (non-X)
Tk on OS X prior to 10.6 and there are unresolved problems with the 10.6
Apple-supplied Tk 8.5 and 2.6.x IDLE (Issue6864).

   



--
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Ned Deily]

In article <4bc61278.7020...@v.loewis.de>,
 "Martin v. Lowis"  wrote:
> Ned Deily wrote:
> > That *is* something that the PSF could help with.  I 
> > would be happy to help with that myself, although my time to do so will 
> > be very limited for the next few weeks.
> 
> The PSF still has a machine that was donated by Apple that once used to
> be a build slave. Unfortunately, that machine had hardware problems (or
> atleast appeared to have hardware problems). So if anybody would be
> interested into maintaining it, please let us know.

Any idea what type of machine it is and where it is currently located?

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 n...@acm.org

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Ned Deily]

In article <4bc63599.5020...@voidspace.org.uk>,
 Michael Foord  wrote:
> A build on my machine produces output similar to:
> 
> 
> Python build finished, but the necessary bits to build these modules 
> were not found:
> _bsddb

third-party (Sleepycat) library needed (see the installer script)

> dl

only available for 32-bit

> gdbm

third-party library needed (not supplied in the installer build)

> imageop

only available for 32-bit (and removed in 3.x)

> linuxaudiodev  ossaudiodev

neither supported on OS X

> readline

requires either GNU readline lib (not included with OS X) or (with 
2.6.5, trunk, or py3k) can now use OS X editline (libedit) replacement 
when targeting for 10.5 or 10.6 (add MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET=10.5 or 
10.6 to ./configure arguments).

> spwd   sunaudiodev

neither supported on OS X

> Failed to build these modules:
> _tkinter

currently only supported for 32-bit archs as there was no 64-bit (non-X) 
Tk on OS X prior to 10.6 and there are unresolved problems with the 10.6 
Apple-supplied Tk 8.5 and 2.6.x IDLE (Issue6864).

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 n...@acm.org

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Ned Deily]

In article <4bc697d2.4020...@v.loewis.de>,
 "Martin v. Lowis"  wrote:
> Greg Ewing wrote:
> > Michael Foord wrote:
> >> Building Python requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to be
> >> installed. Even then, building a full version of Python - with *all*
> >> the C extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a trivial
> >> task.
> > What's non-trivial about it? 
> Building a DMG file, in a way that the output will actually work on most
> other systems.

As Ronald pointed out, the installer build script does all of the dirty 
work of building the install disk image (the .dmg file), including 
downloading and building necessary third-party libraries.   What isn't 
automatically checked at the moment is that the third-party Tk framework 
is in place during the build and that there isn't contamination from the 
build user's environment.  There is a patch in Issue5651 to do much of 
that.  It doesn't currently try to handle the possibility of MacPorts 
(/opt/local) and Fink (/sw) contamination.  I believe that issue should 
be addressed by the resolution of Issue7713.

Keep in mind that Python on OS X supports the standard OS X 
multi-architecture (Intel vs PPC and/or 32-bit vs 64-bit executables in 
the same file) and multi-version features (the current installer builds 
are fully supported on 10.6, 10.5, and 10.4 and "best-effort" supported 
on 10.3 as well although building is not supported on 10.3) as well as 
"Unix" shared library vs OS X framework shared library configurations.  
That leads to a rather imposing matrix of potential build systems vs 
potential target systems.  For the most part, Apple provides excellent 
upward compatibility; downward is somewhat trickier.   OS X 10.6 (Snow 
Leopard) has complicated matters by the change to preferring 64-bit 
building and executing where possible.  For python builds, some build 
configurations that worked by default under 10.5 and earlier no longer 
do so on 10.6, primarily due to standard library modules that depend on 
APIs, in many cases deprecated ones, that are only available in 32-bit 
versions.  The old Macintosh modules comprise the biggest group of these 
and, while they have been removed in 3.x, they still remain in 2.x.  But 
there are some others as well, which explain most of the build issues 
Michael reported.  There are also newer versions of some open source 
libraries in 10.6 which cause problems for multi-version builds: 
openssl, for one, and Apple's 64-bit version of Tk 8.5.

None of these problems are insolvable but with the very limited 
resources (i.e. people time) we've had for working on these issues, and 
when there have been so many other more critical problems, it has been 
easier up to now to stick with building on 10.5 (or even on 10.4 which I 
test build occasionally).  I think the single most important thing that 
can be done to help right now is to get a robust system of OS X 
buildbots going so that many of the critical problems can be detected up 
front rather than when one of us gets around to building and install 
testing the multi-arch and multi-version installers.  Since there are so 
many potential configurations, some thought needs to go into which would 
be of the most value.  I would say that the most important build 
configurations are: (1) 32-bit Intel/PPC framework on 10.5 (and 
eventually 10.6) targeted for 10.3 through 10.6 (the current installer 
config setup); and (2) 32-/64- Intel-only framework for 10.6;  followed 
by (3) 32-/64- Intel/PPC framework for 10.5 and 10.6.  Building the 
whole installer and testing on as many targeted systems as possible 
would be ideal but that adds more complexity to the automation (again, 
not insurmountable).  But even just doing framework multi-arch builds, 
installs, and tests (using the appropriate options) on only the build 
systems themselves without building an installer or third-party libs 
would go a long way towards catching many, if not most, problems early.   
I'd be happy to supply more detailed suggestions for specific 
configuration parameters for those interested in setting up buildbots.   
(There may be some delay, though, as I will have limited time and 
Internet access for the next three weeks.)

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 n...@acm.org

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

Greg Ewing wrote:
> Michael Foord wrote:
>> Building Python requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to be
>> installed. Even then, building a full version of Python - with *all*
>> the C extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a trivial
>> task.
> 
> What's non-trivial about it? 

Building a DMG file, in a way that the output will actually work on most
other systems.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Zvezdan Petkovic]

On Apr 14, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:

>> I think you just need to supply to configure
>> 
>> MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET=10.4
>> 
>> and have the appropriate SDK installed with Xcode.
> 
> Wouldn't that break 10.3 compatibility (seel below)?


I was replying to your point about 10.4 build.
Naturally, if you want a 10.3 build you'd pass 10.3 as the target and would 
have to have appropriate Xcode SDK installed.


>>> Unfortunately, Apple manages to break compatibility and portability
>>> with every release, which makes this particular build task s
>>> tricky. You have to make all kinds of decisions and compromises
>>> where are really difficult to keep track of.
>> 
>> 
>> Hmm.  Apple provided compatibility SDK and documented it.
>> 
>> The only compromise I see in this build process right now is that we
>> are building a Panther (10.3) compatible installer, while Mac OS X is
>> a certified UNIX starting with 10.5.
> 
> I think there are more issues. People want a fat binary that supports
> AMD64 along with x86, yet building such a binary requires an SDK that
> won't support PPC anymore - right?

Yes.

x86_64, i386, and ppc are supported even in the Xcode supplied with the latest 
Mac OS X 10.6.  Only ppc64 is not.  So, ppc is not an issue.

The problem is that enforcing backward compatibility with 10.3 and 10.4 makes 
64-bit Intel architecture not feasible.

You are right, it is a compromise.
We are making more users happy by providing a 32-bit installer for a wider 
range of OS releases.

However, if we want a more modern certified UNIX, 64-bit installer, then we'll 
have to draw a line and stop supporting older OS releases.

Just as we stop supporting older releases of Python.

Regards,

Zvezdan

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Paul Moore]

On 14 April 2010 18:36, Steve Holden  wrote:
> I spent some considerable effort last year ensuring the developer
> community was well-supplied with MS developer licenses that give access
> to any necessary tools. Was I wasting my time?

Definitely not - my offer is at least in part based on the fact that I
have the full tools as a result and so can do (hopefully) useful work
on assisting with any necessary build process improvements.

My comment was in response to the question "why are we ignoring the
express editions"? If having the full versions wasn't better than
having the free ones, the developer licenses would be of less benefit
(and that isn't the case, as I say).

Paul.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Nick Coghlan]

Martin v. Löwis wrote:
> The same is true for any other operating system, though: you need to
> install the compiler tool chain (sometimes, you need to buy it first),
> and compiling Python with all extensions is not a trivial task.

Even on Linux, it takes a bit of fiddling. I finally remembered to write
the steps down for Kubuntu when I set up my current machine (you need to
apt-get half a dozen or so additional dev packages):
http://boredomandlaziness.blogspot.com/2010/01/kubuntu-dev-packages-to-build-python.html

Take away the convenience of apt-get and add installing the compiler and
installer toolchains and you've got a fair amount of setup time on your
hands (and lots of things that can go wrong).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
---
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Paul Rudin]

Paul Moore  writes:

> On 14 April 2010 07:37, Paul Rudin  wrote:
>> "Martin v. Löwis"  writes:
>>
>>> The major difference in the "do it yourself" attitude is that Mac user
>>> get a compiler for free, as part of the operating system release,
>>> whereas for Windows, they have to pay for it (leaving alone VS Express
>>> for the moment).
>>
>> JOOI why ignore the express versions of the MS compilers? All (I think)
>> MS compilers are available for free in command line versions - it's the
>> GUI tools you pay for.
>
> I believe that the express editions don't include some of the advanced
> optimisations (profile guided optimisation rings a bell) which are
> used to build the official binaries. So if the binaries were built
> using Express Edition, they would be somewhat slower.
>
> That is just my recollection, however - it may be out of date or wrong.
> Paul.

I could be wrong too. However I think I had two things confused (it's
been a while since I've done any windows development). There are two
different suites of free compilers from MS. There's the windows sdk,
which includes a command line toolchain and the express edition of VS
which (essentially) is a cut down version of the commercial version of
VS.


Some info about the windows sdk versions is here
 and about 
versions - including Express - here (at least for VC++)

although that's a little old.




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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 23:32, Greg Ewing wrote:

Michael Foord wrote:
Building Python requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to 
be installed. Even then, building a full version of Python - with 
*all* the C extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a 
trivial task.


What's non-trivial about it? I usually find that the normal
"./configure; make; make install" sequence works fine without
any further intervention.

If you want a framework installation you have to read the
README and use a couple of extra options, but it still works
very smoothly.


A build on my machine produces output similar to:


Python build finished, but the necessary bits to build these modules 
were not found:

_bsddb dl gdbm
imageoplinuxaudiodev  ossaudiodev
readline   spwd   sunaudiodev
To find the necessary bits, look in setup.py in detect_modules() for the 
module's name.



Failed to build these modules:
_tkinter

Obviously many of those are not meant to be built and I usually build 
Python for running the test suite - so I don't care about not having 
Tkinter. A new user of Python would most certainly care about not having 
Tkinter.


Michael

--
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Greg Ewing]

Michael Foord wrote:
Building Python requires, I 
believe, the XCode development tools to be installed. Even then, 
building a full version of Python - with *all* the C extensions that are 
part of a Python release - is not a trivial task.


What's non-trivial about it? I usually find that the normal
"./configure; make; make install" sequence works fine without
any further intervention.

If you want a framework installation you have to read the
README and use a couple of extra options, but it still works
very smoothly.

--
Greg
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Bill Janssen]

Martin v. Löwis  wrote:

> > Michael Foord  wrote:
> > 
> >> Building the Mac installer requires volunteer time which I'm not sure
> >> that more hardware will fix - compiling a full build of Python for Mac
> >> OS X (with all the Python modules like Tkinter etc) requires expertise
> >> which only a few people have.
> > 
> > That's nuts.  Why isn't this expertise captured in the form of a script?
> 
> Much of it is, but it still takes expertise to run the script.

Apparently not, according to Ronald's recent mail.  I'd be happy to help
with whatever remaining capture is necessary for OS X -- not automating
this kind of thing is nuts.  My buildbots build UpLib, and most of its
optional packages (including ghostscript, xpdf, libtiff, openssl, t1lib,
Lucene, PyLucene, etc.) from source every night, and whenever I do an
UpLib check-in.  On Linux and OS X, right now -- I'm working on Windows
right now.

> It would take even more expertise to capture the remaining pieces in the
> script, too, and no living person has that much expertise to write the
> script (perhaps there are one or two people, and they don't have the time).

Well, God forbid they should ever be hit by a bus!  This kind of thing
needs to be written down.

Bill
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Bill Janssen]

Martin v. Löwis  wrote:

> > I'd be happy to help where I can, too.  All my automated testing of
> > UpLib (Windows, Ubuntu, Fedora, OS X) is done on Apple servers running
> > OS X and VirtualBox and Hudson, so I've got some experience there.
> 
> Would you be interested in operating a build slave?

I could help to maintain some OS X buildbots located somewhere, sure.

Bill
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[R. David Murray]

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 14:06:44 -0400, Eric Smith  wrote:
> "Steve Holden"  wrote:
>> I spent some considerable effort last year ensuring the developer
>> community was well-supplied with MS developer licenses that give access
>> to any necessary tools. Was I wasting my time?
>
> In my case it was not a waste of time. I use MSDN for dev and testing. Just 
> not
> for release building.

Ditto.  Without the license I wouldn't have a Windows machine that
I could run tests on at all (I run the OS in KVM instances). 

--
R. David Murray  www.bitdance.com
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> I think you just need to supply to configure
> 
> MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET=10.4
> 
> and have the appropriate SDK installed with Xcode.

Wouldn't that break 10.3 compatibility (seel below)?

>> Unfortunately, Apple manages to break compatibility and portability
>> with every release, which makes this particular build task s
>> tricky. You have to make all kinds of decisions and compromises
>> where are really difficult to keep track of.
> 
> 
> Hmm.  Apple provided compatibility SDK and documented it.
> 
> The only compromise I see in this build process right now is that we
> are building a Panther (10.3) compatible installer, while Mac OS X is
> a certified UNIX starting with 10.5.

I think there are more issues. People want a fat binary that supports
AMD64 along with x86, yet building such a binary requires an SDK that
won't support PPC anymore - right?

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 14:03, "Martin v. Löwis"  wrote:

> Paul Rudin wrote:
> > "Martin v. Löwis"  writes:
> >
> >> The major difference in the "do it yourself" attitude is that Mac user
> >> get a compiler for free, as part of the operating system release,
> >> whereas for Windows, they have to pay for it (leaving alone VS Express
> >> for the moment).
> >
> > JOOI why ignore the express versions of the MS compilers? All (I think)
> > MS compilers are available for free in command line versions - it's the
> > GUI tools you pay for.
>
> Primarily out of a historical perspective: I think "we" started
> providing Windows binaries primarily because some people bought the
> appropriate license (of Visual Studio, and Wise Installer). IMO, that's
> a stronger reason than mere convenience.
>
> As for available tools: I'm not sure how you would build an AMD64
> release just with those tools.
>
> Regards,
> Martin


Outside of hacking the registry and various config files, 64-bit builds
can't be done with the express versions of Visual Studio, and I wouldn't be
comfortable shipping a product built in that way.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Zvezdan Petkovic]

On Apr 14, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
> I'm not sure whether 10.5 would be sufficient - it may be that you need to go 
> back to 10.4 (*).


I think you just need to supply to configure

MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET=10.4

and have the appropriate SDK installed with Xcode.

I believe it is installed by default with Xcode on Leopard (10.5), but with 
Xcode on Snow Leopard (10.6) the 10.4 SDK is an optional install.


> Unfortunately, Apple manages to break compatibility and portability with 
> every release, which makes this particular build task s tricky. You have 
> to make all kinds of decisions and compromises where are really difficult to 
> keep track of.


Hmm.  Apple provided compatibility SDK and documented it.

The only compromise I see in this build process right now is that we are 
building a Panther (10.3) compatible installer, while Mac OS X is a certified 
UNIX starting with 10.5.  So, we are deliberately using obsolete model to 
provide backward compatibility.

However, I'm fine with that for the installer.

Power users can compile their own build optimized for their platform.

Regards,

Zvezdan

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 21:37, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:

[snip...]

Unfortunately the Mac installer build script doesn't seem to run at all
on Mac OS X 10.6 (at least not on my machine),  but hopefully the
situation is clarified so that one of us who does still have Mac OS X
10.5 will be able to build the installer in a timely manner for the next
release should Ronald be too busy.
 

I'm not sure whether 10.5 would be sufficient - it may be that you need
to go back to 10.4 (*). Unfortunately, Apple manages to break
compatibility and portability with every release, which makes this
particular build task s tricky. You have to make all kinds of
decisions and compromises where are really difficult to keep track of.

   


In an earlier email Ronald said:



Creating the Mac installer is easy: just run 
Mac/BuildScript/build-installer.py on an OSX 10.5 system where a local 
version of Tcl/Tk 8.4 is installed in /Library/Frameworks. The system 
should also not have fink or darwinports and a clean /usr/local tree 
to avoid contaminating the build.


I can't verify that this is correct, I can verify it that the 
build-installer script doesn't appear to work under 10.6.


Michael



Regards,
Martin

(*) I know that this is the version I had to go back to when I created
OSX binaries for 2.5.x.
   



--
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Right - but we were discussing this in the context of barrier to entry,
> particularly to new users. We don't impose this requirement for Windows
> users though - we provide binary installers.
> 
> I *know* we're a volunteer organisation (etc), but it is good for us to
> be aware of our process weaknesses without excusing ourselves.

I think nobody here is questioning that it is desirable to have OSX
binaries. And I readily admit that this is a weakness.

> Unfortunately the Mac installer build script doesn't seem to run at all
> on Mac OS X 10.6 (at least not on my machine),  but hopefully the
> situation is clarified so that one of us who does still have Mac OS X
> 10.5 will be able to build the installer in a timely manner for the next
> release should Ronald be too busy.

I'm not sure whether 10.5 would be sufficient - it may be that you need
to go back to 10.4 (*). Unfortunately, Apple manages to break
compatibility and portability with every release, which makes this
particular build task s tricky. You have to make all kinds of
decisions and compromises where are really difficult to keep track of.

Regards,
Martin

(*) I know that this is the version I had to go back to when I created
OSX binaries for 2.5.x.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 20:21, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:

Mac users definitely *do* expect installers. Building Python requires, I
believe, the XCode development tools to be installed. Even then,
building a full version of Python - with *all* the C extensions that are
part of a Python release - is not a trivial task.
 

The same is true for any other operating system, though: you need to
install the compiler tool chain (sometimes, you need to buy it first),
and compiling Python with all extensions is not a trivial task.
   


Right - but we were discussing this in the context of barrier to entry, 
particularly to new users. We don't impose this requirement for Windows 
users though - we provide binary installers.


I *know* we're a volunteer organisation (etc), but it is good for us to 
be aware of our process weaknesses without excusing ourselves.


Unfortunately the Mac installer build script doesn't seem to run at all 
on Mac OS X 10.6 (at least not on my machine),  but hopefully the 
situation is clarified so that one of us who does still have Mac OS X 
10.5 will be able to build the installer in a timely manner for the next 
release should Ronald be too busy.


All the best,

Michael


Regards,
Martin
   



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

>>From what I recall, the PC build process is pretty much routine (I
> can't recall how much it's scripted, and how much it's manual, but
> well-documented and simple, steps). I don't know what extra is needed
> to build the final installer, but I'd be willing to have a go at
> testing the existing process and if necessary adding some automation.

I do *a lot* of manual steps, because I didn't have time to script it all.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> How about as a first step the release build process include a check for
> broken links before committing the web content for a new release?

You'd have to convince the release manager to add a step to the release
process.

Given that the release process has already too many steps, he is
probably skeptical wrt. such a proposal.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Michael Foord  wrote:
> 
>> Building the Mac installer requires volunteer time which I'm not sure
>> that more hardware will fix - compiling a full build of Python for Mac
>> OS X (with all the Python modules like Tkinter etc) requires expertise
>> which only a few people have.
> 
> That's nuts.  Why isn't this expertise captured in the form of a script?

Much of it is, but it still takes expertise to run the script.

It would take even more expertise to capture the remaining pieces in the
script, too, and no living person has that much expertise to write the
script (perhaps there are one or two people, and they don't have the time).

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> I'd be happy to help where I can, too.  All my automated testing of
> UpLib (Windows, Ubuntu, Fedora, OS X) is done on Apple servers running
> OS X and VirtualBox and Hudson, so I've got some experience there.

Would you be interested in operating a build slave?

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

Ned Deily wrote:
> That *is* something that the PSF could help with.  I 
> would be happy to help with that myself, although my time to do so will 
> be very limited for the next few weeks.

The PSF still has a machine that was donated by Apple that once used to
be a build slave. Unfortunately, that machine had hardware problems (or
atleast appeared to have hardware problems). So if anybody would be
interested into maintaining it, please let us know.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

Paul Rudin wrote:
> "Martin v. Löwis"  writes:
> 
>> The major difference in the "do it yourself" attitude is that Mac user
>> get a compiler for free, as part of the operating system release,
>> whereas for Windows, they have to pay for it (leaving alone VS Express
>> for the moment).
> 
> JOOI why ignore the express versions of the MS compilers? All (I think)
> MS compilers are available for free in command line versions - it's the
> GUI tools you pay for.

Primarily out of a historical perspective: I think "we" started
providing Windows binaries primarily because some people bought the
appropriate license (of Visual Studio, and Wise Installer). IMO, that's
a stronger reason than mere convenience.

As for available tools: I'm not sure how you would build an AMD64
release just with those tools.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

C. Titus Brown wrote:
> If Georg, Benjamin,
> Martin, or Ronald are interested, please just tell me (or Steve, or the PSF
> board, or ...) what you want and I'll work on getting it funded.

For me, my company provides all the infrastructure I need (tools,
bandwidth, hardware, etc). I agreed, in return, to mention that support
on our group's home page:

http://www.dcl.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/

Regards,
Martin

P.S. and yes, HPI is a company, but associated with the University of
Potsdam.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Sure - but probably not your average Python-on-Mac user. Or at least a
> good proportion of them, particularly newbies who we are keen to keep
> the experience of obtaining Python simple. First download and then
> install 1gigabyte of developer tools (seriously) requiring registration,
> then compile Python from source yourself, is not the way to go. (And yes
> the XCode tools are included in the OS disks - but not the latest
> versions, especially if you are still running Leopard.)

That's fine: the official binaries are (deliberately) *not* built with
the latest tool chain.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> I personally think the Mac is pretty important, as one of the big three
> consumer operating systems...
[...]
> I don't know what to do about motivation but if there are barriers that
> we can lower, please let me know.

For example, you could volunteer to produce OSX binaries in a timely
manner for the next two years. Now would be a good point to do so, since
your next release would still be a beta release. Expect to mess up the
first time you do it, so it's good that it would be only a beta.

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> I assumed that creation of installer binaries for a release depends on
> having the release manager or a lieutenant have access to the given
> platform (Windows, OS/X) and tools,  For instance, the RM or lieutenant
> might only have access to such a platform part-time (e.g., only while at
> work, or only at home).  In such a case, providing additional hardware
> could expedite creation of the binaries.
> 
> I'm sorry if I misunderstood the issue.

I think you do misunderstand: the people that do (occasionally, or
eventually) provide OSX binaries have hardware available to them all the
time. They only have part-time to work on Python, though.

Of course, if somebody would promise a more timely provision of
binaries, and can't do that because of lack of hardware, we would have
to look for a solution.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Mac users definitely *do* expect installers. Building Python requires, I
> believe, the XCode development tools to be installed. Even then,
> building a full version of Python - with *all* the C extensions that are
> part of a Python release - is not a trivial task.

The same is true for any other operating system, though: you need to
install the compiler tool chain (sometimes, you need to buy it first),
and compiling Python with all extensions is not a trivial task.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Eric Smith]

In my case it was not a waste of time. I use MSDN for dev and testing. Just not 
for release building.

"Steve Holden"  wrote:

>Paul Moore wrote:
>> On 14 April 2010 07:37, Paul Rudin  wrote:
>>> "Martin v. Löwis"  writes:
>>>
 The major difference in the "do it yourself" attitude is that Mac user
 get a compiler for free, as part of the operating system release,
 whereas for Windows, they have to pay for it (leaving alone VS Express
 for the moment).
>>> JOOI why ignore the express versions of the MS compilers? All (I think)
>>> MS compilers are available for free in command line versions - it's the
>>> GUI tools you pay for.
>> 
>> I believe that the express editions don't include some of the advanced
>> optimisations (profile guided optimisation rings a bell) which are
>> used to build the official binaries. So if the binaries were built
>> using Express Edition, they would be somewhat slower.
>> 
>> That is just my recollection, however - it may be out of date or wrong.
>> Paul.
>
>I spent some considerable effort last year ensuring the developer
>community was well-supplied with MS developer licenses that give access
>to any necessary tools. Was I wasting my time?
>
>regards
> Steve
>-- 
>Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
>See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
>Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
>UPCOMING EVENTS:http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/
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--
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:36, Steve Holden  wrote:

> Paul Moore wrote:
> > On 14 April 2010 07:37, Paul Rudin  wrote:
> >> "Martin v. Löwis"  writes:
> >>
> >>> The major difference in the "do it yourself" attitude is that Mac user
> >>> get a compiler for free, as part of the operating system release,
> >>> whereas for Windows, they have to pay for it (leaving alone VS Express
> >>> for the moment).
> >> JOOI why ignore the express versions of the MS compilers? All (I think)
> >> MS compilers are available for free in command line versions - it's the
> >> GUI tools you pay for.
> >
> > I believe that the express editions don't include some of the advanced
> > optimisations (profile guided optimisation rings a bell) which are
> > used to build the official binaries. So if the binaries were built
> > using Express Edition, they would be somewhat slower.
> >
> > That is just my recollection, however - it may be out of date or wrong.
> > Paul.
>
> I spent some considerable effort last year ensuring the developer
> community was well-supplied with MS developer licenses that give access
> to any necessary tools. Was I wasting my time?
>
> regards
>  Steve
>

I certainly hope not. I believe full MSDN licenses were involved there,
which are a great resource to a Windows developer.

I'll have a whack at building the Windows installer. It would be nice to see
it integrated with the build process, including testing of an installed
version. We already have one or more Linux buildbots which test an installed
build, and that setup uncovered an additional bug in a recent fix of mine.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 14, 2010, at 01:36 PM, Steve Holden wrote:

>I spent some considerable effort last year ensuring the developer
>community was well-supplied with MS developer licenses that give access
>to any necessary tools. Was I wasting my time?

At the time I didn't care because I had no access to anything Windows.  Now I
do, though it's a bit of a PITA (because I have to reboot my main dev box).
How can I get a license and the tools?  Installing the express version was
pretty easy, though it has limitations of course.

-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Steve Holden]

Paul Moore wrote:
> On 14 April 2010 07:37, Paul Rudin  wrote:
>> "Martin v. Löwis"  writes:
>>
>>> The major difference in the "do it yourself" attitude is that Mac user
>>> get a compiler for free, as part of the operating system release,
>>> whereas for Windows, they have to pay for it (leaving alone VS Express
>>> for the moment).
>> JOOI why ignore the express versions of the MS compilers? All (I think)
>> MS compilers are available for free in command line versions - it's the
>> GUI tools you pay for.
> 
> I believe that the express editions don't include some of the advanced
> optimisations (profile guided optimisation rings a bell) which are
> used to build the official binaries. So if the binaries were built
> using Express Edition, they would be somewhat slower.
> 
> That is just my recollection, however - it may be out of date or wrong.
> Paul.

I spent some considerable effort last year ensuring the developer
community was well-supplied with MS developer licenses that give access
to any necessary tools. Was I wasting my time?

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 19:25, Steve Holden wrote:

Michael Foord wrote:
   

On 14/04/2010 06:13, Ned Deily wrote:
 

In article,
   Steve Holden   wrote:


   

Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?
Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we? If we are, why isn't the creation
of the build a part of the release process?

Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.

 

Wasn't that problem fixed weeks ago?  The installer image has been
available there since several days after the release.  And the link
seems fine now.


   

The problem is the process that creates a new release with a 404 link to
the Mac installer with no explanation. The 2.6.5 release (as always)
caused several requests to webmaster from Mac users unable to download
Python - which is a further waste of volunteer time as well as a cause
of frustration for users.

Building the Mac installer requires volunteer time which I'm not sure
that more hardware will fix - compiling a full build of Python for Mac
OS X (with all the Python modules like Tkinter etc) requires expertise
which only a few people have.

A Mac OS X machine (and location to keep it) for the buildbots is a
*big* need however.

 

How about as a first step the release build process include a check for
broken links before committing the web content for a new release?

   

Yes - needed but orthogonal. :-)

Michael


regards
  Steve
   



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Steve Holden]

Michael Foord wrote:
> On 14/04/2010 06:13, Ned Deily wrote:
>> In article,
>>   Steve Holden  wrote:
>>
>>   
>>> Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?
>>> Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we? If we are, why isn't the creation
>>> of the build a part of the release process?
>>>
>>> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
>>> time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.
>>>  
>> Wasn't that problem fixed weeks ago?  The installer image has been
>> available there since several days after the release.  And the link
>> seems fine now.
>>
>>
> The problem is the process that creates a new release with a 404 link to
> the Mac installer with no explanation. The 2.6.5 release (as always)
> caused several requests to webmaster from Mac users unable to download
> Python - which is a further waste of volunteer time as well as a cause
> of frustration for users.
> 
> Building the Mac installer requires volunteer time which I'm not sure
> that more hardware will fix - compiling a full build of Python for Mac
> OS X (with all the Python modules like Tkinter etc) requires expertise
> which only a few people have.
> 
> A Mac OS X machine (and location to keep it) for the buildbots is a
> *big* need however.
> 
How about as a first step the release build process include a check for
broken links before committing the web content for a new release?

regards
 Steve
-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Bill Janssen]

Michael Foord  wrote:

> On 14/04/2010 18:49, Steve Holden wrote:
> > Bill Janssen wrote:
> >
> >> Michael Foord  wrote:
> >>
> >>  
>  Isn't that just a matter of having the recipe written down somewhere?
> 
>   
> >>> Yes, that would be nice. :-) Preferably a recipe that doesn't involve
> >>> Macports or Fink which some of us are allergic to.
> >>>
> >> Yes, ditto the MacPorts/Fink allergy.
> >>
> >> All we need is a script, right?  The released branches should be built
> >> automatically every night anyway, just for regression testing.
> >>
> >> Perhaps we should take this up on Mac-Python?
> >>
> >>  
> > Please do, and let me know if resources of some kind would help.
> >
> 
> A Mac buildbot would *definitely* be useful and I know some of the
> Python-dev crew would like access to a Mac OS X machine for trying out
> fixes when none of the core Mac maintainers are around. A couple of
> co-located, or otherwise hosted, Mac boxes would be very useful.

Yes!

> 
> The obvious question is who would hold the keys (maintain the
> buildbot)? I don't know if Ronald has the spare capacity to do this
> (?). If someone will help me with the initial setup I can otherwise
> volunteer.

Sure, I can help with that.

Bill
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Trent Nelson]

> > What happened to the big-ass computer farm for Python which was
> > being put together by someone at (I think) Michigan State?
> 
> That sounds a lot like Snakebite (www.snakebite.org), which is
> still... uhhh, a work in progress ;-)

Actually, for those that are interested, here's a copy of the
presentation I gave at the Testing in Python session at PyCon a few
months ago:


http://www.snakebite.org/presentations/snakebite-pycon2010-tip.pptx
(Office 2007-2010)

http://www.snakebite.org/presentations/snakebite-pycon2010-tip.ppt
(Office 97-2003)

If anything, it'll shed some light on all the unforeseen issues we've
been running into since the project's inception.  The presentation is a
little out of date -- I spent three months earlier this year on the
network and it's definitely in the most respectable state it's been in
yet.  Coupla' photos for those that are interested:

  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4384.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4392.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4393.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4394.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4395.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4396.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4401.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4402.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4403.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4405.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4410.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4418.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4424.JPG
  http://snakebite.org/images/IMG_4425.JPG

We've got three racks filled to the brim with all sorts of servers:

 - 4xItanium 2 @ 1.5GHz, 16GB RAM, HP-UX 11iv3
 - 4xItanium 2 @ 1.5GHz, 30GB RAM, RHEL 5.3
 - 2xUltraSPARC III 900MHz, 8GB, Solaris 10
(file/zfs/nfs server -- 16x146GB 2Gb FC)
 - 2xUltraSPARC III 1.2GHz, 4GB, Solaris 10
 - 2xPA-RISC 875MHz, 8GB, HP-UX 11iv1
 - 4 AIX boxes w/ 2x1.5GHz, 8GB, AIX 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 & 6.1
 - 10 dedicated VMware x86/64 boxes, ranging from dual
   core 8GB to 8 core monsters with 64GB
 - 4x667MHz AlphaServer, 8GB, Tru64
 - 4x600MHz SGI Octane 300, IRIX 6.22
 - and lots of other stuff.

Actually, the only platform we don't have is Mac OS X.  Although I've
got a contact at Apple that I'll start harassing again once I'm back in
East Lansing.

Trent.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[C. Titus Brown]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 06:52:46PM +0200, Michael Foord wrote:
> On 14/04/2010 18:49, Steve Holden wrote:
>> Bill Janssen wrote:
>>
>>> Michael Foord  wrote:
>>>
>>>  
> Isn't that just a matter of having the recipe written down somewhere?
>
>  
 Yes, that would be nice. :-) Preferably a recipe that doesn't involve
 Macports or Fink which some of us are allergic to.

>>> Yes, ditto the MacPorts/Fink allergy.
>>>
>>> All we need is a script, right?  The released branches should be built
>>> automatically every night anyway, just for regression testing.
>>>
>>> Perhaps we should take this up on Mac-Python?
>>>
>>>  
>> Please do, and let me know if resources of some kind would help.
>>
>
> A Mac buildbot would *definitely* be useful and I know some of the  
> Python-dev crew would like access to a Mac OS X machine for trying out  
> fixes when none of the core Mac maintainers are around. A couple of  
> co-located, or otherwise hosted, Mac boxes would be very useful.
>
> The obvious question is who would hold the keys (maintain the buildbot)?  
> I don't know if Ronald has the spare capacity to do this (?). If someone  
> will help me with the initial setup I can otherwise volunteer.

We have some space in our machine room, and some sysadmins that like open
source.  I will ask them if they are willing to do physical maintenance (profs
wisely aren't allowed access to the machine room).  That would really be
ideal... I will report back to interested people.

--titus
-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[C. Titus Brown]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 09:37:34AM -0700, Bill Janssen wrote:
> Michael Foord  wrote:
> 
> > > Isn't that just a matter of having the recipe written down somewhere?
> > >
> > 
> > Yes, that would be nice. :-) Preferably a recipe that doesn't involve
> > Macports or Fink which some of us are allergic to.
> 
> Yes, ditto the MacPorts/Fink allergy.
> 
> All we need is a script, right?  The released branches should be built
> automatically every night anyway, just for regression testing.

Please pass it along to me, when you get it working... I build python2.7
nightly on Mac OS X, but just at the command line.

see:

http://lyorn.idyll.org/ctb/pb-dev/p/python/

http://lyorn.idyll.org/ctb/pb-dev/p/python/show_all

(the Windows build is flaky for me, so the 'show_all' shows mostly
Windows builds).

--titus
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 18:49, Steve Holden wrote:

Bill Janssen wrote:
   

Michael Foord  wrote:

 

Isn't that just a matter of having the recipe written down somewhere?

 

Yes, that would be nice. :-) Preferably a recipe that doesn't involve
Macports or Fink which some of us are allergic to.
   

Yes, ditto the MacPorts/Fink allergy.

All we need is a script, right?  The released branches should be built
automatically every night anyway, just for regression testing.

Perhaps we should take this up on Mac-Python?

 

Please do, and let me know if resources of some kind would help.
   


A Mac buildbot would *definitely* be useful and I know some of the 
Python-dev crew would like access to a Mac OS X machine for trying out 
fixes when none of the core Mac maintainers are around. A couple of 
co-located, or otherwise hosted, Mac boxes would be very useful.


The obvious question is who would hold the keys (maintain the buildbot)? 
I don't know if Ronald has the spare capacity to do this (?). If someone 
will help me with the initial setup I can otherwise volunteer.


All the best,

Michael


regards
  Steve
   



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Steve Holden]

Bill Janssen wrote:
> Michael Foord  wrote:
> 
>>> Isn't that just a matter of having the recipe written down somewhere?
>>>
>> Yes, that would be nice. :-) Preferably a recipe that doesn't involve
>> Macports or Fink which some of us are allergic to.
> 
> Yes, ditto the MacPorts/Fink allergy.
> 
> All we need is a script, right?  The released branches should be built
> automatically every night anyway, just for regression testing.
> 
> Perhaps we should take this up on Mac-Python?
> 
Please do, and let me know if resources of some kind would help.

regards
 Steve
-- 
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See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Trent Nelson]

> What happened to the big-ass computer farm for Python which was
> being put together by someone at (I think) Michigan State?

That sounds a lot like Snakebite (www.snakebite.org), which is still...
uhhh, a work in progress ;-)  We've run into an issue recently that's
thwarted progress, but that'll hopefully be resolved in the next couple
of weeks.  And then... full steam ahead!

Trent.



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Bill Janssen]

Michael Foord  wrote:

> > Isn't that just a matter of having the recipe written down somewhere?
> >
> 
> Yes, that would be nice. :-) Preferably a recipe that doesn't involve
> Macports or Fink which some of us are allergic to.

Yes, ditto the MacPorts/Fink allergy.

All we need is a script, right?  The released branches should be built
automatically every night anyway, just for regression testing.

Perhaps we should take this up on Mac-Python?

Bill
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Paul Moore]

On 14 April 2010 17:04, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> From the RM perspective, what I would really like to see is updates to
> the release.py script to check dependencies and automate as much as possible,
> as well as updates to PEP 101 for any process steps that can't be automated.
>
> This goes for both Windows and OS X.

>From what I recall, the PC build process is pretty much routine (I
can't recall how much it's scripted, and how much it's manual, but
well-documented and simple, steps). I don't know what extra is needed
to build the final installer, but I'd be willing to have a go at
testing the existing process and if necessary adding some automation.

Paul.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 18:01, s...@pobox.com wrote:

 Michael>  Mac users definitely *do* expect installers. Building Python
 Michael>  requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to be
 Michael>  installed.

XCode is free, and I suspect many people have it (I do).
   


Sure - but probably not your average Python-on-Mac user. Or at least a 
good proportion of them, particularly newbies who we are keen to keep 
the experience of obtaining Python simple. First download and then 
install 1gigabyte of developer tools (seriously) requiring registration, 
then compile Python from source yourself, is not the way to go. (And yes 
the XCode tools are included in the OS disks - but not the latest 
versions, especially if you are still running Leopard.)



 Michael>  Even then, building a full version of Python - with *all* the C
 Michael>  extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a trivial
 Michael>  task.

Isn't that just a matter of having the recipe written down somewhere?
   


Yes, that would be nice. :-) Preferably a recipe that doesn't involve 
Macports or Fink which some of us are allergic to.


Michael



Skip
   



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[skip]

Michael> Mac users definitely *do* expect installers. Building Python
Michael> requires, I believe, the XCode development tools to be
Michael> installed.

XCode is free, and I suspect many people have it (I do).

Michael> Even then, building a full version of Python - with *all* the C
Michael> extensions that are part of a Python release - is not a trivial
Michael> task.

Isn't that just a matter of having the recipe written down somewhere?

Skip

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:51 AM, s...@pobox.com wrote:

>Steve> Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind
>Steve> others?  Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we? If we are, why
>Steve> isn't the creation of the build a part of the release process?
>
>Steve> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or
>Steve> had time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.
>
>I'm not sure who normally creates the Mac distribution, perhaps Ronald
>Ousorren?  It would appear that either Ronald (or whoever) has been
>unavailable or there was no coordination between the Mac and non-Mac folks
>involved in the release.
>
>I'm willing to give it a whirl (I have both a MacBook Pro and a PowerMac G5
>at home - both running Max OSX 10.5.x (Leopard)) though I will almost
>certainly need a cheat sheet for the process.  I normally treat my Macs as
>Unix boxes from a Python perspective so don't make framework builds.

From the RM perspective, what I would really like to see is updates to
the release.py script to check dependencies and automate as much as possible,
as well as updates to PEP 101 for any process steps that can't be automated.

This goes for both Windows and OS X.

-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[skip]

Ned> ... since there are no OS X buildbots that test that configuration.
Ned> But, at the moment, there aren't any OS X buildbots at all, are
Ned> there?  That *is* something that the PSF could help with

What happened to the big-ass computer farm for Python which was being put
together by someone at (I think) Michigan State?

Skip

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 17:41, Michael Foord wrote:

[snip...]

A Mac OS X machine (and location to keep it) for the buildbots is a
*big* need however.

At least two.  You want Leopard and Snow Leopard, too.


Well - an XServe that we can run virtualisation on would be the 
*ideal* solution. I think the X serves are the only machines you are 
*allowed* to virtualise OS X on (?).


An alternative that solves the problem of finding somewhere to put the 
machine would be to use a service like Mac Mini colocation hosting:


http://www.macminicolo.net/

That could be used both for debugging OS X specific problems *and* as a 
buildbot.


All the best,

Michael



All the best,

Michael


Bill






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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[skip]

Steve> I do think it makes us look bad to have one supported platform
Steve> lag the others, but it wasn't obvious to me whether hardware
Steve> alone was the reason. If it is, the fix should be relatively
Steve> simple.

I can't believe it's a hardware issue.  Probably half the people with
laptops at the last PyCon I attended were Macs.  I suspect anyone with a
recent Mac running Leopard or Snow Leopard should be able to build the
binary release.  It's probably just a matter of knowing how.

Skip

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[skip]

Steve> Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind
Steve> others?  Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we? If we are, why
Steve> isn't the creation of the build a part of the release process?

Steve> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or
Steve> had time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.

I'm not sure who normally creates the Mac distribution, perhaps Ronald
Ousorren?  It would appear that either Ronald (or whoever) has been
unavailable or there was no coordination between the Mac and non-Mac folks
involved in the release.

I'm willing to give it a whirl (I have both a MacBook Pro and a PowerMac G5
at home - both running Max OSX 10.5.x (Leopard)) though I will almost
certainly need a cheat sheet for the process.  I normally treat my Macs as
Unix boxes from a Python perspective so don't make framework builds.

Skip
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 17:36, Bill Janssen wrote:

Michael Foord  wrote:

   

Building the Mac installer requires volunteer time which I'm not sure
that more hardware will fix - compiling a full build of Python for Mac
OS X (with all the Python modules like Tkinter etc) requires expertise
which only a few people have.
 

That's nuts.  Why isn't this expertise captured in the form of a script?

   

A Mac OS X machine (and location to keep it) for the buildbots is a
*big* need however.
 

At least two.  You want Leopard and Snow Leopard, too.
   


Well - an XServe that we can run virtualisation on would be the *ideal* 
solution. I think the X serves are the only machines you are *allowed* 
to virtualise OS X on (?).


All the best,

Michael


Bill
   



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Bill Janssen]

Michael Foord  wrote:

> Building the Mac installer requires volunteer time which I'm not sure
> that more hardware will fix - compiling a full build of Python for Mac
> OS X (with all the Python modules like Tkinter etc) requires expertise
> which only a few people have.

That's nuts.  Why isn't this expertise captured in the form of a script?

> A Mac OS X machine (and location to keep it) for the buildbots is a
> *big* need however.

At least two.  You want Leopard and Snow Leopard, too.

Bill
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Bill Janssen]

Ned Deily  wrote:

> In article <4bc54f4f.4090...@v.loewis.de>,
>  "Martin v. Lowis"  wrote:
> 
> > > Wasn't that problem fixed weeks ago?  The installer image has been 
> > > available there since several days after the release.  And the link 
> > > seems fine now.
> > 
> > The inherent problem remains. There is no binary for 2.7b1, for example.
> > The last binaries produced in the 2.7 testing process were for 2.7a2.
> 
> That's true.  But there wouldn't be a traditional OS X installer for 
> 2.7b1 anyway since it turns out it is not possible to build a multi-arch 
> installer without patching because of a bug that wasn't caught before 
> the code cutoff since there are no OS X buildbots that test that 
> configuration.  But, at the moment, there aren't any OS X buildbots at 
> all, are there?  That *is* something that the PSF could help with.  I 
> would be happy to help with that myself

I'd be happy to help where I can, too.  All my automated testing of
UpLib (Windows, Ubuntu, Fedora, OS X) is done on Apple servers running
OS X and VirtualBox and Hudson, so I've got some experience there.

Bill
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Nick Coghlan]

Michael Foord wrote:
> Yes, I mean on the release page. The issue is that the download links on
> the sidebar / front page go straight to the latest release page. If
> there isn't yet a Mac installer available, and no alternative link to
> get the previous version, it leaves Mac users with no obvious way to get
> a Mac installer *at all*. (Those who know the site well can find the
> previous versions themselves, but for users not intimately familiar with
> our site layout it is 'a challenge'.)

I would actually use the "source only" release pages as a guide here.
They provide a link to the download page for the last version that
provided Mac and Windows binaries.

This makes it clear to the downloader that the binaries are for an older
version, while still making a binary version easy to find.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 14, 2010, at 06:39 AM, C. Titus Brown wrote:

>Separately, I'd be happy to put forward a proposal to the PSF to fund RMs and
>their lieutenants with a Mac or a PC, whichever they needed to keep things
>moving.  It's the least "we" can do, IMO, and hardware is just not that
>expensive compared to the dedication of the volunteers.  If Georg, Benjamin,
>Martin, or Ronald are interested, please just tell me (or Steve, or the PSF
>board, or ...) what you want and I'll work on getting it funded.

While I appreciate the offer, I don't think this is as useful as it could be.
Speaking as an RM, I would happily build all three releases (source tarballs,
Windows installers and Mac disk images) if I had easy access to the necessary
machines and environments over the 'net, and precise instructions on how to do
the builds.  Ideally, those instructions would be "run this script" or even
rolled into the current release.py script that is used to build the tarballs.

I have Macs and a Windows machine.  The Windows machine is not easily
accessible as it's a dual-boot with Ubuntu.  As stated previously, the
difficult part is getting all the necessary dependencies in place and the
expertise to know the steps that are required to build.  A network accessible
machine for Mac and Windows, where other experts such as Martin and Roland can
help maintain and configure, would be ideal.  That way, and of the platform
experts or RM could push a button and build the installers.

-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[C. Titus Brown]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 07:36:25AM +0200, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
> >> In a wider sense of "to support", MacOS is certainly supported by
> >> Python. There is everything in the source code that you need to make
> >> Python run on a Mac. Just download the sources and compile them yourself.
> >>
> > And yet we don't regard the Windows release as complete until you have
> > built the binaries (for which service you deserve many thanks, by the way).
> 
> This phenomenon exists for a lot of other systems, as well. For example,
> we also support Solaris, but stopped providing Solaris binaries since
> Python 1.5 (when I last built binaries for Das Python-Buch). People
> still can get Solaris binaries from ActiveState or Sunfreeware; Sun also
> ships Python as part of the system.

I personally think the Mac is pretty important, as one of the big three
consumer operating systems...

> > Is the Mac platform one on which users will be happy to compile from
> > source? I know its users are savvier than Windows users, and have a
> > better tool set available to them, but they still seem to expect
> > downloadable installers.
> 
> The major difference in the "do it yourself" attitude is that Mac user
> get a compiler for free, as part of the operating system release,
> whereas for Windows, they have to pay for it (leaving alone VS Express
> for the moment).

Actually, I think the more pernicious factor is that a version of Python comes
pre-installed on Mac OS X, which means the up-front demand is lower
for a pre-compiled version.  This is problematic, though, because that
version of Python only gets upgraded with full releases of Mac OS X
(which are not very well correlated with releases of Python, of course).
So we have lots of Python installs out there that, in the absence of
a precompiled binary version, can't be upgraded without installing
the developer tools.

> However, the real difference is motivation for contribution to open
> source projects. You normally contribute to scratch an itch.
> Unfortunately, these binaries don't come out such a motiviation. So the
> release manager roles are either altruistic, or rely on extrinsic
> motivations (money, reputation).

I don't know what to do about motivation but if there are barriers that
we can lower, please let me know.

cheers,
--titus
-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 13:58, Barry Warsaw wrote:

On Apr 14, 2010, at 02:45 PM, Michael Foord wrote:

   

Can we amend that to having some placeholder text saying that the Mac
installer is not yet available and a link to the previous available
version please. That can then be replaced with the normal link once the
Mac installer is uploaded.
 

You mean, on the x.y.z release page, or a separate page?  I guess you're
saying that it's better to include some "not available yet" text on the x.y.x
release page than to just comment out the platform.  That makes sense, and I'd
be happy to do that, since I already make such a caveat in the release
announcement.

   


Yes, I mean on the release page. The issue is that the download links on 
the sidebar / front page go straight to the latest release page. If 
there isn't yet a Mac installer available, and no alternative link to 
get the previous version, it leaves Mac users with no obvious way to get 
a Mac installer *at all*. (Those who know the site well can find the 
previous versions themselves, but for users not intimately familiar with 
our site layout it is 'a challenge'.)


Thanks

Michael



-Barry
   



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[C. Titus Brown]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 06:33:03AM -0400, Tres Seaver wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Martin v. L?wis wrote:
> > Tres Seaver wrote:
> >> Steve Holden wrote:
> >>> Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?
> >>> Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we? If we are, why isn't the creation
> >>> of the build a part of the release process?
> >>> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
> >>> time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.
> >> Maybe the PSF should make it a priority by funding acquisition of the
> >> appropriate proprietary hardware (Mac / Windows) for the release
> >> manager.  Otherwise the avaialbility of binaries is going to lag source
> >> releases forever.
> > 
> > Tres,
> > 
> > can you be more explicit? How would such hardware help (whom specifically)?
> 
> I assumed that creation of installer binaries for a release depends on
> having the release manager or a lieutenant have access to the given
> platform (Windows, OS/X) and tools,  For instance, the RM or lieutenant
> might only have access to such a platform part-time (e.g., only while at
> work, or only at home).  In such a case, providing additional hardware
> could expedite creation of the binaries.

As with Windows, I personally find that building Python with all the associated
libraries is blocked on getting the right libraries installed, not on
getting the compilers (which are available to us for free) ... but I'm sure
that easy access to hardware is an issue, too.

I can provide command-line access to a Mac OS X machine but I'm not sure that's
enough.  Let me know if anyone wants that.

Separately, I'd be happy to put forward a proposal to the PSF to fund RMs and
their lieutenants with a Mac or a PC, whichever they needed to keep things
moving.  It's the least "we" can do, IMO, and hardware is just not that
expensive compared to the dedication of the volunteers.  If Georg, Benjamin,
Martin, or Ronald are interested, please just tell me (or Steve, or the PSF
board, or ...) what you want and I'll work on getting it funded.

--titus
-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 14, 2010, at 02:45 PM, Michael Foord wrote:

>Can we amend that to having some placeholder text saying that the Mac 
>installer is not yet available and a link to the previous available 
>version please. That can then be replaced with the normal link once the 
>Mac installer is uploaded.

You mean, on the x.y.z release page, or a separate page?  I guess you're
saying that it's better to include some "not available yet" text on the x.y.x
release page than to just comment out the platform.  That makes sense, and I'd
be happy to do that, since I already make such a caveat in the release
announcement.

-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 13:46, Barry Warsaw wrote:

On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Michael Foord wrote:

   

The problem is the process that creates a new release with a 404 link to
the Mac installer with no explanation. The 2.6.5 release (as always)
caused several requests to webmaster from Mac users unable to download
Python - which is a further waste of volunteer time as well as a cause
of frustration for users.
 

As the RM, that's my fault then.  When I start creating the page for a new
release I will leave the Windows and Mac links commented out.  I do (now
) wait for Martin to upload the Windows installers before announcing the
release, but generally don't wait for Ronald to produce the Mac images, so I
leave those commented out too.  When Ronald builds the Mac image and provides
it to me, I'll upload them and tweak the page.
   


Can we amend that to having some placeholder text saying that the Mac 
installer is not yet available and a link to the previous available 
version please. That can then be replaced with the normal link once the 
Mac installer is uploaded.


Thanks

Michael Foord



-Barry
   



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Michael Foord wrote:

>The problem is the process that creates a new release with a 404 link to 
>the Mac installer with no explanation. The 2.6.5 release (as always) 
>caused several requests to webmaster from Mac users unable to download 
>Python - which is a further waste of volunteer time as well as a cause 
>of frustration for users.

As the RM, that's my fault then.  When I start creating the page for a new
release I will leave the Windows and Mac links commented out.  I do (now
) wait for Martin to upload the Windows installers before announcing the
release, but generally don't wait for Ronald to produce the Mac images, so I
leave those commented out too.  When Ronald builds the Mac image and provides
it to me, I'll upload them and tweak the page.

-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Paul Moore]

On 14 April 2010 07:37, Paul Rudin  wrote:
> "Martin v. Löwis"  writes:
>
>> The major difference in the "do it yourself" attitude is that Mac user
>> get a compiler for free, as part of the operating system release,
>> whereas for Windows, they have to pay for it (leaving alone VS Express
>> for the moment).
>
> JOOI why ignore the express versions of the MS compilers? All (I think)
> MS compilers are available for free in command line versions - it's the
> GUI tools you pay for.

I believe that the express editions don't include some of the advanced
optimisations (profile guided optimisation rings a bell) which are
used to build the official binaries. So if the binaries were built
using Express Edition, they would be somewhat slower.

That is just my recollection, however - it may be out of date or wrong.
Paul.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Tres Seaver]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Martin v. Löwis wrote:
> Tres Seaver wrote:
>> Steve Holden wrote:
>>> Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?
>>> Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we? If we are, why isn't the creation
>>> of the build a part of the release process?
>>> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
>>> time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.
>> Maybe the PSF should make it a priority by funding acquisition of the
>> appropriate proprietary hardware (Mac / Windows) for the release
>> manager.  Otherwise the avaialbility of binaries is going to lag source
>> releases forever.
> 
> Tres,
> 
> can you be more explicit? How would such hardware help (whom specifically)?

I assumed that creation of installer binaries for a release depends on
having the release manager or a lieutenant have access to the given
platform (Windows, OS/X) and tools,  For instance, the RM or lieutenant
might only have access to such a platform part-time (e.g., only while at
work, or only at home).  In such a case, providing additional hardware
could expedite creation of the binaries.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood the issue.


Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 07:17, Steve Holden wrote:

[snip...]

In a wider sense of "to support", MacOS is certainly supported by
Python. There is everything in the source code that you need to make
Python run on a Mac. Just download the sources and compile them yourself.

 

And yet we don't regard the Windows release as complete until you have
built the binaries (for which service you deserve many thanks, by the way).

Is the Mac platform one on which users will be happy to compile from
source? I know its users are savvier than Windows users, and have a
better tool set available to them, but they still seem to expect
downloadable installers.

   
Mac users definitely *do* expect installers. Building Python requires, I 
believe, the XCode development tools to be installed. Even then, 
building a full version of Python - with *all* the C extensions that are 
part of a Python release - is not a trivial task.


All the best,


Michael Foord



Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.
   

That is not surprising: none of the webmaster people would be able to
answer the question. python-dev is indeed the right place to ask.

 

I thought I'd picked this thread off python-dev. What point am I not
understanding here?

regards
  Steve
   



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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 06:13, Ned Deily wrote:

In article,
  Steve Holden  wrote:

   

Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?
Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we? If we are, why isn't the creation
of the build a part of the release process?

Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.
 

Wasn't that problem fixed weeks ago?  The installer image has been
available there since several days after the release.  And the link
seems fine now.

   
The problem is the process that creates a new release with a 404 link to 
the Mac installer with no explanation. The 2.6.5 release (as always) 
caused several requests to webmaster from Mac users unable to download 
Python - which is a further waste of volunteer time as well as a cause 
of frustration for users.


Building the Mac installer requires volunteer time which I'm not sure 
that more hardware will fix - compiling a full build of Python for Mac 
OS X (with all the Python modules like Tkinter etc) requires expertise 
which only a few people have.


A Mac OS X machine (and location to keep it) for the buildbots is a 
*big* need however.


All the best,

Michael

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Michael Foord]

On 14/04/2010 07:11, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:

Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?
 

Because of lack of volunteers, and expertise (i.e. the experts lack time).

   


That doesn't explain why we leave a broken link in place when we do 
major releases - for days usually (if not weeks) with no explanation to 
users. That part of the release process is broken and should be fixed. 
Putting some placeholder text on the release page instead of the broken 
link is barely any more effort at all.


For the last 2.6.5 release I changed the text and removed the dead link 
myself. When the Mac installer was uploaded someone else put the link back.



[snip...]

Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.
 

That is not surprising: none of the webmaster people would be able to
answer the question. python-dev is indeed the right place to ask.
   


Which is why I sent the email onto python-dev. However, no-one responded 
until Steve.


All the best,


Michael


Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Ned Deily]

In article <4bc54f4f.4090...@v.loewis.de>,
 "Martin v. Lowis"  wrote:

> > Wasn't that problem fixed weeks ago?  The installer image has been 
> > available there since several days after the release.  And the link 
> > seems fine now.
> 
> The inherent problem remains. There is no binary for 2.7b1, for example.
> The last binaries produced in the 2.7 testing process were for 2.7a2.

That's true.  But there wouldn't be a traditional OS X installer for 
2.7b1 anyway since it turns out it is not possible to build a multi-arch 
installer without patching because of a bug that wasn't caught before 
the code cutoff since there are no OS X buildbots that test that 
configuration.  But, at the moment, there aren't any OS X buildbots at 
all, are there?  That *is* something that the PSF could help with.  I 
would be happy to help with that myself, although my time to do so will 
be very limited for the next few weeks.

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 n...@acm.org

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Paul Rudin]

"Martin v. Löwis"  writes:

> The major difference in the "do it yourself" attitude is that Mac user
> get a compiler for free, as part of the operating system release,
> whereas for Windows, they have to pay for it (leaving alone VS Express
> for the moment).

JOOI why ignore the express versions of the MS compilers? All (I think)
MS compilers are available for free in command line versions - it's the
GUI tools you pay for.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

>> In a wider sense of "to support", MacOS is certainly supported by
>> Python. There is everything in the source code that you need to make
>> Python run on a Mac. Just download the sources and compile them yourself.
>>
> And yet we don't regard the Windows release as complete until you have
> built the binaries (for which service you deserve many thanks, by the way).

This phenomenon exists for a lot of other systems, as well. For example,
we also support Solaris, but stopped providing Solaris binaries since
Python 1.5 (when I last built binaries for Das Python-Buch). People
still can get Solaris binaries from ActiveState or Sunfreeware; Sun also
ships Python as part of the system.

> Is the Mac platform one on which users will be happy to compile from
> source? I know its users are savvier than Windows users, and have a
> better tool set available to them, but they still seem to expect
> downloadable installers.

The major difference in the "do it yourself" attitude is that Mac user
get a compiler for free, as part of the operating system release,
whereas for Windows, they have to pay for it (leaving alone VS Express
for the moment).

However, the real difference is motivation for contribution to open
source projects. You normally contribute to scratch an itch.
Unfortunately, these binaries don't come out such a motiviation. So the
release manager roles are either altruistic, or rely on extrinsic
motivations (money, reputation).

>>> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
>>> time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.
>> That is not surprising: none of the webmaster people would be able to
>> answer the question. python-dev is indeed the right place to ask.
>>
> I thought I'd picked this thread off python-dev. What point am I not
> understanding here?

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you copied it from the webmaster list
(as the original To indicated). I don't recall having it seen on
python-dev, but I kill many messages to python-dev without reading them.

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Steve Holden]

Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>> Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?
> 
> Because of lack of volunteers, and expertise (i.e. the experts lack time).
> 
>> Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we?
> 
> We aren't. Strictly speaking, "we" (python-dev) "support" nothing (in
> the sense that "we" can promise a support hotline, service contracts, or
>  anything in that respect). That includes timely availability of stuff.
> If you want Python "support" on MacOS, contact Apple, ActiveState, or
> any other company that provides actual support.
> 
OK. I should confirm that I mean "support" in your wider sense below.

> In a wider sense of "to support", MacOS is certainly supported by
> Python. There is everything in the source code that you need to make
> Python run on a Mac. Just download the sources and compile them yourself.
> 
And yet we don't regard the Windows release as complete until you have
built the binaries (for which service you deserve many thanks, by the way).

Is the Mac platform one on which users will be happy to compile from
source? I know its users are savvier than Windows users, and have a
better tool set available to them, but they still seem to expect
downloadable installers.

>> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
>> time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.
> 
> That is not surprising: none of the webmaster people would be able to
> answer the question. python-dev is indeed the right place to ask.
> 
I thought I'd picked this thread off python-dev. What point am I not
understanding here?

regards
 Steve
-- 
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See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Wasn't that problem fixed weeks ago?  The installer image has been 
> available there since several days after the release.  And the link 
> seems fine now.

The inherent problem remains. There is no binary for 2.7b1, for example.
The last binaries produced in the 2.7 testing process were for 2.7a2.

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

Tres Seaver wrote:
> Steve Holden wrote:
>> Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?
>> Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we? If we are, why isn't the creation
>> of the build a part of the release process?
> 
>> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
>> time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.
> 
> Maybe the PSF should make it a priority by funding acquisition of the
> appropriate proprietary hardware (Mac / Windows) for the release
> manager.  Otherwise the avaialbility of binaries is going to lag source
> releases forever.

Tres,

can you be more explicit? How would such hardware help (whom specifically)?

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?

Because of lack of volunteers, and expertise (i.e. the experts lack time).

> Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we?

We aren't. Strictly speaking, "we" (python-dev) "support" nothing (in
the sense that "we" can promise a support hotline, service contracts, or
 anything in that respect). That includes timely availability of stuff.
If you want Python "support" on MacOS, contact Apple, ActiveState, or
any other company that provides actual support.

In a wider sense of "to support", MacOS is certainly supported by
Python. There is everything in the source code that you need to make
Python run on a Mac. Just download the sources and compile them yourself.

> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
> time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.

That is not surprising: none of the webmaster people would be able to
answer the question. python-dev is indeed the right place to ask.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Ned Deily]

In article ,
 Steve Holden  wrote:

> Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?
> Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we? If we are, why isn't the creation
> of the build a part of the release process?
> 
> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
> time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.

Wasn't that problem fixed weeks ago?  The installer image has been 
available there since several days after the release.  And the link 
seems fine now.

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 n...@acm.org

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Steve Holden]

Tres Seaver wrote:
> Steve Holden wrote:
>> Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?
>> Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we? If we are, why isn't the creation
>> of the build a part of the release process?
> 
>> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
>> time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.
> 
> Maybe the PSF should make it a priority by funding acquisition of the
> appropriate proprietary hardware (Mac / Windows) for the release
> manager.  Otherwise the avaialbility of binaries is going to lag source
> releases forever.
> 
Thanks for your note. One of the reasons I took the trouble to comment
on the issue was to determine whether resources are needed.

Generally I regard it as the PSF's job to respond to requests for
resources from the dev team, not to tell them how to do the work they
already excel at.

We did, a while ago, accept a hardware donation from Apple. If we need
more Mac hardware I will be happy to ask the Infrastructure Committee to
look into it, but I'd suggest we need guidance from someone actually
involved in the build work to ensure we get maximum utility out of any
investment.

I do think it makes us look bad to have one supported platform lag the
others, but it wasn't obvious to me whether hardware alone was the
reason. If it is, the fix should be relatively simple.

regards
 Steve
-- 
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See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Broken link to download (Mac OS X)

[Tres Seaver]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Steve Holden wrote:
> Why is it unavoidable that the Mac build will languish behind others?
> Are we supporting MacOs or aren't we? If we are, why isn't the creation
> of the build a part of the release process?
> 
> Clearly it's not a priority given that nobody has seen fit to (or had
> time to) reply to this mail in three weeks.

Maybe the PSF should make it a priority by funding acquisition of the
appropriate proprietary hardware (Mac / Windows) for the release
manager.  Otherwise the avaialbility of binaries is going to lag source
releases forever.



Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com
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