Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Steve, thanks for your care-full reply.

Steve Holden writes:

 > Particularly when the issue tracker works ...

Well, sometimes it's down.But Roundup is more flexible as
a database engine than a lot of people realize.  Better docs would
help, I'm sure, but we can also create new standard queries quite
easily.  While it's not really possible to get good statistics on
time-to-close, for example, we can do a pretty good job of identifying
"ignored" issues, and we can target reducing the count to some extent.

 > It seems to me that something would be *really* wrong if
 > nobody cared about the relatively few issues that had received no
 > response.

Phrased as "care about", that's a straw man.  Pretty much everybody
cares about those issues.  Phrased as "care for", well, now we've
found the friction, I suspect.  Applying real TLC to many of the
hangfire issues is going to require highlevel skills and/or lots of
time, resources that are scarce around here (because they're being
applied to other important tasks).

 > The fact that Mark is on that case means that those who want
 > to shrug their shoulders about it can do so.

Indeed, that's the way I feel about it.  But Mark clearly doesn't
think he alone is enough.  There's a genuine difference of opinion
here somewhere, even if I've misrepresented Mark's opinion.

Maybe it would help if we scheduled a bug day, and try to make sure
that a couple senior devs rendezvous with Mark so he can advocate some
of the issues that bother him the most, and he can get a look at the
issue resolution process in action.

 > I see the current efforts to ensure that new issues *all* receive
 > an effective as complementary to the other activities that have
 > always taken place.

Again, there's friction here.  Somebody said that it's really no help
if the acknowledgment is automatic, and that's true.  The reply was
that a polite response from a human isn't necessarily going to be much
better unless there's real help in it, and that's true too.  As I
understand Mark, that's a lot of his frustration; he doesn't yet know
enough to be of genuine help in most of the issues he handles, so he
has to be satisfied with either dropping it on the floor again, or
sending out an embarrassing "Hi, I'm from the Python triage team, and
I'm sorry to tell you that after five years of dead silence, we still
have nothing to say."  Anyway, I know *I* find that frustrating when I
have to do it!

Where do we find the resources to provide that "real help"?  Again,
maybe one bug day to show what can be done, and then more or less
regularly-scheduled bug days to keep up the momentum?

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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Nick Coghlan]

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 6:56 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:
> As Steven d'Aprano pointed out (admittedly with a bit of hyperbole) a
> very high percentage of issues (about 97%) do get some response, and
> nearly 87% of all issues ever submitted to Python have already been
> closed (based on the end-of-July tracker summary).  Remember that many
> of those that are still open are open because nobody's willing to call
> them "walking dead" and close them as "unsalvagable."  Any serious
> effort at triage by the people who would do the work to resolve them
> will surely result in a very large fraction closed with "wontfix",
> what is known as "a self-fulfilling prophecy".  It's not clear that's
> a win; some users surely think so, others not.

There's at least one low priority bug that I submitted a couple of
years ago (doctest freaking out a bit if you use angle brackets in the
nominal filename) that is still open because the workaround of "well,
don't do that then" is so much easier than actually figuring out why
it is freaking out (my initial diagnosis pointed the finger at one of
the regular expressions in linecache, but I never actually nailed a
definitive culprit). Normal filenames don't usually contain angle
brackets, and in my case, it was a completely invented filename so I
could easily drop the angle brackets from the name.

It's a real bug though, so I'd prefer not to see it closed as "wontfix".

While that kind of bug is low on the effort/reward scale from an
absolute point of view, someone could still learn a lot on a personal
level from fixing it. Having it brought to my attention again recently
let me provide some better information on how to reproduce it by
hacking a bit on the current test suite, so someone looking to learn
more about the dev process could definitely work through distilling it
down into a dedicated test case and then figuring out how to make the
new test case pass.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Steve Holden]

On 8/3/2010 4:56 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Steve Holden writes:
> 
>  > No, you don't, and the current discussion about how to ensure that bug
>  > reporters get at least the courtesy of a relatively quick reply is one
>  > of the most promising developments in building a welcoming community
>  > that I can remember.
> 
> C'mon Steve, it's not hard to see that's unfair.  Mark deserves to be
> complimented for the work he's doing, that side of your comment is
> perfectly fair, but you of all people should take care to recognize
> that python-dev is "welcoming people to the community" every day.
> 
[...]

Well if my response exaggerated the situation (which your statistics
seem to make clear it did) then I am very pleased to hear it, and
apologize unreservedly to anyone who feels slighted by my remarks.

I agree the developers as a whole do a magnificent (and largely unsung)
job, and I suspect that not many people realise what a struggle it has
been maintaining four separate branches in the run-up to 2.x
end-of-life. Now we are down to three, with presumably a much more
limited requirement to back-port changes, things should be a little less
stressful.

Particularly when the issue tracker works ...

>  > But let's not let that stop us trying to build a crew of
>  > ambassadors to take care of the more touchy-feely side of things as
>  > long as it operates to the language's ultimate benefit.
> 
> Nobody's interfering with that *at all*.  In fact, it's quite clear
> that everybody is happy with Mark's work, and wants him to continue.
> They just want him to give up on the idea that they're going to put in
> a lot more effort on resolving issues than they already do, and his
> claim that something's horribly wrong.  The numbers above show why.

I don't think anyone can criticize those whose first priority is the
development of code. That is, after all, why we are here.

I believe Mark's claim isn't that something's horribly wring with the
whole process. It seems to me that something would be *really* wrong if
nobody cared about the relatively few issues that had received no
response. The fact that Mark is on that case means that those who want
to shrug their shoulders about it can do so.

Python is "a broad church" and not everyone has an appetite for all
aspects of the development process. I see the current efforts to ensure
that new issues *all* receive an effective as complementary to the other
activities that have always taken place.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010http://djangocon.us/
See Python Video!   http://python.mirocommunity.org/
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Steve Holden writes:

 > No, you don't, and the current discussion about how to ensure that bug
 > reporters get at least the courtesy of a relatively quick reply is one
 > of the most promising developments in building a welcoming community
 > that I can remember.

C'mon Steve, it's not hard to see that's unfair.  Mark deserves to be
complimented for the work he's doing, that side of your comment is
perfectly fair, but you of all people should take care to recognize
that python-dev is "welcoming people to the community" every day.

As Steven d'Aprano pointed out (admittedly with a bit of hyperbole) a
very high percentage of issues (about 97%) do get some response, and
nearly 87% of all issues ever submitted to Python have already been
closed (based on the end-of-July tracker summary).  Remember that many
of those that are still open are open because nobody's willing to call
them "walking dead" and close them as "unsalvagable."  Any serious
effort at triage by the people who would do the work to resolve them
will surely result in a very large fraction closed with "wontfix",
what is known as "a self-fulfilling prophecy".  It's not clear that's
a win; some users surely think so, others not.

Now, let's take a look at some recent numbers about issue flows.  Of
the 264 issues submitted in June, 126 (47.7%) have already been
closed.  Of the 138 still open, 38 (27.5% of open issues) have
activity in July, meaning that 62.1% of the sample of 264 recent
issues have either been resolved or are receiving ongoing support (and
maybe better than that).[1][2]

In fact, the numbers I'm looking at are really promising, too, and the
whole Python crew deserves a big round of applause for producing them
every day!  Those numbers mean that not only have hundreds of users
been "welcomed to the community", but a huge majority of them got some
kind of fix for their problems, too, or at least a comment from a
qualified expert.  That compares very favorably with my experience
with other products, both commercial and volunteer-developed.

I don't claim that these numbers are a reason for doing nothing about
issues that have been hanging fire for years.  But it clearly suggests
that those hangfires are mostly very hard issues for some reason.
They are not a systematic problem with the project's overall response
to issues; it is extremely effective in dealing with them.

What's left is a pure PR effort:

 > But let's not let that stop us trying to build a crew of
 > ambassadors to take care of the more touchy-feely side of things as
 > long as it operates to the language's ultimate benefit.

Nobody's interfering with that *at all*.  In fact, it's quite clear
that everybody is happy with Mark's work, and wants him to continue.
They just want him to give up on the idea that they're going to put in
a lot more effort on resolving issues than they already do, and his
claim that something's horribly wrong.  The numbers above show why.


Footnotes: 
[1]  "June" and "July" are approximations.  First, *creation date* was
queried with "from -2m to -1m", and then was filtered with *activity*
"from -1m" and *status* "open".

[2]  These are conservative estimates of activity in my opinion.  Eg,
depending on how many of the open issues not touched in July are
waiting on OP response, return of a developer from vacation, or
perhaps a release before being committed to a branch, it may be that
the number of issues waiting for developer attention is much smaller
than 100.

It's hard to develop more precise statistics, and this is obviously
not a random sample.  But the sample is probably not unrepresentative.
The corresponding numbers for May submissions, closures to date, and
June-July activity are 281, 151 (53.7%), and 44 (33.8% of still open
issues).  Interestingly enough, for issues submitted in May and still
open, the June activity is 23 and the July activity is 21, so they are
entirely disjoint!  This means that delays of a month or so don't
imply that an issue is being dropped on the floor at all in the May
sample, just that half the time it takes a developer a month or two to
get to his issues.

Footnote 1 applies here, too.
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Steven D'Aprano writes:

 > I don't know. What percentage of new issues get ever get a response? My 
 > wild guess is that it's probably about 99.9%, but the 0.1% that don't 
 > remain languishing forever, skewing the statistics.

No guess needed, we have the data.  If the fraction "a" of issues ever
opened is still open, and 1 in 5 open issues has no responses, then
the fraction of issues that ever got a response is 4a/5 + (1 - a).
(This assumes that closing an issue counts as a response, which I
think is entirely reasonable.)

The actual value of a is currently 13.2%, which means that about 1/9 *
1/5 = one in 45 of new issues has never received any response.  IMO,
that's pretty good.  I don't think it's worth doing anything about,
beyond giving Mark and those who volunteer with him better tools for
their work.  But that much should be done (again IMO).

To add an anecdote to those already presented, back when I was
completely new to Internet-based software development, I had an Emacs
bug that was making my life miserable.  I really wanted to do the
Right Thing and support the GNU project, but it was the XEmacs
developers that responded with interest (but zero help beyond some
random suggestions that didn't pan out -- the guy who knew something
about it had a different X implementation and it worked for him).  You
can see the difference that response made to *my* life in my email
address.
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Mark Lawrence writes:

 > I completely disagree.

Mark, please stop being disagreeable.  The above is *not true*.
You've made no statements I can recall insisting that the only way to
skin a cat is to use a GNOME theme, only that the cat needs skinning.

Before you posted that, Benjamin had already clarified that his worry
is that new fields will be added to the tracker, or available values
for some fields will be changed.  He's right, experience shows that
adding fields to the tracker confuses reporters and responders alike,
unless it's done very carefully.

But he has no objection to improving the tracker's reporting
capabilities.  I think the tracker currently has plenty of information
to do a much better job of responding in a timely fashion than was
done in the past, so there's plenty of room for you to do your work
without imposing new bureaucracy on others, yes?  There's no real
disagreement here (unless you think it would be a good idea for
Benjamin to stop doing release manager and do issue triage instead, in
which case, I certainly hope he disagrees!)


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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Ron Adam writes:

 > Yes, but when I do it, I either get a single specific day, or 2700
 > issues.

If your query specifies an activity date, you will get only issues
with activity that date.  If it sorts or groups on activity date, you
will get all issues (subject to other conditions), but you can easily
view either the first 50 or the last 50 by choosing direction of sort.

 > Have you tried it?  I tried various different spelling and could
 > only enter one specific day, "today" works, but "1 month" or "2
 > years" doesn't.

I hadn't tried it at that time; I just stated a general fact about
Roundup's capabilities.  Sorry for not making that clear.

A correct interval syntax, which was tested and works in the creation
and activity fields of XEmacs's Roundup tracker (Python's is refusing
to talk to me at the moment) is "from 2010-06-01 to 2010-07-31".
Another is "from -1m" (meaning from one month ago to now; other units
are "y" for year and "d" for day).

Many others are described in the Roundup User guide.  I don't have an
URL for the current upstream version offhand, but one adapted for
XEmacs's tracker is here:

http://tracker.xemacs.org/XEmacs/its/@@file/user_guide.html#interval-properties

(this part is just the upstream version verbatim, a couple years old).

 > What does work is entering a partial date, ie...  2010-07 for all issues 
 > with activity this july. Or 2010 for all issues with activity this year.

Warning: This didn't work as expected for me with the "from ... to
..."  syntax.  Apparently in from/to syntax, a number with no hyphens
is interpreted as day-of-month, and with one hyphen it's month-day,
with no sanity checking.  I'm not sure what it thinks 2010-07 means,
but it gave me everything in our tracker. :-)
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Steve Holden]

On 8/2/2010 7:39 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 03/08/2010 00:24, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Aug 2010 00:00:46 +0100
>> Mark Lawrence  wrote:
>>>
>>> Fly back at me if you like.  I don't care about me.  I don't care about
>>> you.  I do care about Python.
>>
>> Well, you should care about people. Free software is as much as about
>> building welcoming communities than it is about writing good software.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Antoine.
>>
>>
> Do you build welcoming communities by ignoring posts for ten years?
> 
No, you don't, and the current discussion about how to ensure that bug
reporters get at least the courtesy of a relatively quick reply is one
of the most promising developments in building a welcoming community
that I can remember.

I realise that some people are happier focusing purely on technical
issues, and that's fine. But let's not let that stop us trying to build
a crew of ambassadors to take care of the more touchy-feely side of
things as long as it operates to the language's ultimate benefit.

It takes all sorts to make a world ...

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010http://djangocon.us/
See Python Video!   http://python.mirocommunity.org/
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Barry Warsaw]

On Aug 02, 2010, at 06:57 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:

>You feel locked out by the current tracker?

I do, but that's only because bugs.python.org is currently pinin' for the
fjords. ;)

-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 04:27:53 am Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 8/2/2010 12:54 PM, Brian Curtin wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:39, Ralf Schmitt  > > wrote:
> >
> > Benjamin Peterson  > >
> >
> > writes:
> >  > Please, let's stop messing with the tracker for everything.
> >  > I think the current set up works reasonably well, and we
> >  > should focus on the real problem: manpower
>
> Two months ago, I discovered and reported that about 1/5 of open
> issues had no responses. Is that 'reasonably well'? 

I don't know. What percentage of new issues get ever get a response? My 
wild guess is that it's probably about 99.9%, but the 0.1% that don't 
remain languishing forever, skewing the statistics. What's the average 
age of those 1 in 5 issues? Maybe 1 in 5 is exactly right, given the 
realities of people available to respond to issues versus people 
available to report issues. Maybe 1 in 5 is supernaturally good, given 
our resources available.



-- 
Steven D'Aprano
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Benjamin Peterson]

2010/8/2 Mark Lawrence :
> On 02/08/2010 22:18, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
>> I'm only referring to the infrastructure when I say "the current
>> setup." I don't think repeatedly tweaking the tracker is likely to
>> close more issues.
>>
>
> I find this response quite pathetic.  The bulk of Terry's post has been
> snipped.  My own earlier response has been ignored.  Please Benjamin get out
> of your ivory tower, there are people such as myself who want to help, but
> we feel locked out.

You feel locked out by the current tracker?



-- 
Regards,
Benjamin
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Mark Lawrence]

On 03/08/2010 00:24, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

On Tue, 03 Aug 2010 00:00:46 +0100
Mark Lawrence  wrote:


Fly back at me if you like.  I don't care about me.  I don't care about
you.  I do care about Python.


Well, you should care about people. Free software is as much as about
building welcoming communities than it is about writing good software.

Regards

Antoine.



Do you build welcoming communities by ignoring posts for ten years?

Mark.

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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Tue, 03 Aug 2010 00:00:46 +0100
Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> 
> Fly back at me if you like.  I don't care about me.  I don't care about 
> you.  I do care about Python.

Well, you should care about people. Free software is as much as about
building welcoming communities than it is about writing good software.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Mark Lawrence]

On 02/08/2010 23:43, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:13:01 -0500
Benjamin Peterson  wrote:


2010/8/2 Nick Coghlan:

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 7:18 AM, Benjamin Peterson  wrote:

I'm only referring to the infrastructure when I say "the current
setup." I don't think repeatedly tweaking the tracker is likely to
close more issues.


But tweaking the tracker to improve the way we *interact* with
potential contributors may get more developers in the long run, as
well as closing more issues. Currently, if a bug doesn't get responded
to immediately by people monitoring the bugs list, then there's no
easy way to go back and query "hey, are there any bugs nobody has even
looked at yet?". All this discussion is about is acknowledging that
that is something we should try to keep under control by listing them
in the weekly summary and by making them easy to look up.


Well, I just feel like we keep changing things to little result,
creating an organic mess of fields and statuses. Adding more queries
is fine, but let's not bow to the temptation to add more fields.


FWIW, I completely agree with Benjamin.

Regards

Antoine.




I completely disagree.

Please see my other post.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.

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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Mark Lawrence]

On 02/08/2010 22:18, Benjamin Peterson wrote:

2010/8/2 Terry Reedy:

On 8/2/2010 12:54 PM, Brian Curtin wrote:


On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:39, Ralf Schmittmailto:r...@brainbot.com>>  wrote:

Benjamin Petersonmailto:benja...@python.org>>
writes:

 >  Please, let's stop messing with the tracker for everything. I think
 >  the current set up works reasonably well, and we should focus on the
 >  real problem: manpower


Two months ago, I discovered and reported that about 1/5 of open issues had
no responses. Is that 'reasonably well'?


I'm only referring to the infrastructure when I say "the current
setup." I don't think repeatedly tweaking the tracker is likely to
close more issues.



I find this response quite pathetic.  The bulk of Terry's post has been 
snipped.  My own earlier response has been ignored.  Please Benjamin get 
out of your ivory tower, there are people such as myself who want to 
help, but we feel locked out.


Yes I am aware that I've more than trodden on a few toes as part of my 
learning curve, but all in all in I'm very proud of the fact that in my 
brief tenure I've helped the Python community.  The number of responses 
that I've had stating "Thanks I've forgotten that one" far out number 
the negative ones.  Actually I've never had any negative ones.  I guess 
that some of you are not as bold as I pretend to be.  Honestly by nature 
I'm very quiet and shy so when I start talking like this I'm being very 
serious and it's taken me years to get there.


Further, issues don't have to be closed, but what has to happen is that 
any issue that get raised *MUST* have a response.  This doesn't mean 
someone bumping the Python versions up five years after the issue was 
raised.


Fly back at me if you like.  I don't care about me.  I don't care about 
you.  I do care about Python.


Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Éric Araujo]

> Well, I just feel like we keep changing things to little result,
> creating an organic mess of fields and statuses. Adding more queries
> is fine, but let's not bow to the temptation to add more fields.

AFAICT, Ezio certainly wants to solve the status/stage/resolution
unclear overlap, and in general making the UI better (this means
removing things).

Regards

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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:13:01 -0500
Benjamin Peterson  wrote:

> 2010/8/2 Nick Coghlan :
> > On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 7:18 AM, Benjamin Peterson  
> > wrote:
> >> I'm only referring to the infrastructure when I say "the current
> >> setup." I don't think repeatedly tweaking the tracker is likely to
> >> close more issues.
> >
> > But tweaking the tracker to improve the way we *interact* with
> > potential contributors may get more developers in the long run, as
> > well as closing more issues. Currently, if a bug doesn't get responded
> > to immediately by people monitoring the bugs list, then there's no
> > easy way to go back and query "hey, are there any bugs nobody has even
> > looked at yet?". All this discussion is about is acknowledging that
> > that is something we should try to keep under control by listing them
> > in the weekly summary and by making them easy to look up.
> 
> Well, I just feel like we keep changing things to little result,
> creating an organic mess of fields and statuses. Adding more queries
> is fine, but let's not bow to the temptation to add more fields.

FWIW, I completely agree with Benjamin.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Benjamin Peterson]

2010/8/2 Nick Coghlan :
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 7:18 AM, Benjamin Peterson  wrote:
>> I'm only referring to the infrastructure when I say "the current
>> setup." I don't think repeatedly tweaking the tracker is likely to
>> close more issues.
>
> But tweaking the tracker to improve the way we *interact* with
> potential contributors may get more developers in the long run, as
> well as closing more issues. Currently, if a bug doesn't get responded
> to immediately by people monitoring the bugs list, then there's no
> easy way to go back and query "hey, are there any bugs nobody has even
> looked at yet?". All this discussion is about is acknowledging that
> that is something we should try to keep under control by listing them
> in the weekly summary and by making them easy to look up.

Well, I just feel like we keep changing things to little result,
creating an organic mess of fields and statuses. Adding more queries
is fine, but let's not bow to the temptation to add more fields.


-- 
Regards,
Benjamin
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Nick Coghlan]

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 7:18 AM, Benjamin Peterson  wrote:
> I'm only referring to the infrastructure when I say "the current
> setup." I don't think repeatedly tweaking the tracker is likely to
> close more issues.

But tweaking the tracker to improve the way we *interact* with
potential contributors may get more developers in the long run, as
well as closing more issues. Currently, if a bug doesn't get responded
to immediately by people monitoring the bugs list, then there's no
easy way to go back and query "hey, are there any bugs nobody has even
looked at yet?". All this discussion is about is acknowledging that
that is something we should try to keep under control by listing them
in the weekly summary and by making them easy to look up.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Benjamin Peterson]

2010/8/2 Terry Reedy :
> On 8/2/2010 12:54 PM, Brian Curtin wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:39, Ralf Schmitt > > wrote:
>>
>>    Benjamin Peterson mailto:benja...@python.org>>
>>    writes:
>>
>>     > Please, let's stop messing with the tracker for everything. I think
>>     > the current set up works reasonably well, and we should focus on the
>>     > real problem: manpower
>
> Two months ago, I discovered and reported that about 1/5 of open issues had
> no responses. Is that 'reasonably well'?

I'm only referring to the infrastructure when I say "the current
setup." I don't think repeatedly tweaking the tracker is likely to
close more issues.



-- 
Regards,
Benjamin
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Tim Golden]

On 02/08/2010 8:40 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:

I think it's important to find out what people expect when posting
to the tracker. Maybe a mandatory radio list with these options
would help:

- I post this to get help from you
- I'm willing to work on other issues to expedite processing of this one
- The issue is not urgent, take your time


Or, clearly in some cases:

- I'm just letting you know and walking away; I'm not particularly
interested in pursuing it any further as I've already worked around it.

TJG
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Martin v. Löwis]

> Sure it could make a difference. People who submit issues will
> appreciate *some* response a great deal more than no response.

That depends. Sometimes, people post to the bug tracker to get help,
and they will get sad/driven away/angry when they get no response;
sometimes, if they get a response but no help, they will still get
sad/driven away/angry. Driving them away pointing out that the bug
tracker is not a place to obtain help might be as much help as "we"
can offer.

Other people post to the tracker to offer help. Those are the ones
that should not be driven away. Unfortunately, just responding to
them doesn't improve anything, IMO. If people only post to the issue
without any plan of actually doing something about the issue likely
still drives people away.

> Sure. *Part* of drawing in more manpower can be engaging with those
> submitting issues and seeing if we can get them to post patches and / or
> tests - and suck them as far into Python development as we possibly can.
> ;-) 

I think it's important to find out what people expect when posting
to the tracker. Maybe a mandatory radio list with these options
would help:

- I post this to get help from you
- I'm willing to work on other issues to expedite processing of this one
- The issue is not urgent, take your time

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Steve Holden]

On 8/2/2010 1:18 PM, Michael Foord wrote:
> On 02/08/2010 17:54, Brian Curtin wrote:
>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:39, Ralf Schmitt > > wrote:
>>
>> Benjamin Peterson > > writes:
>>
>> > Please, let's stop messing with the tracker for everything. I think
>> > the current set up works reasonably well, and we should focus on the
>> > real problem: manpower
>>
>> Ignoring issues (probably even with some patches attached) will drive
>> contributors away. That's not the way to increase manpower.
>>
>> - Ralf
>>
>>
>> Overall the "no response" query just passes the buck. Let's say we get
>> that query down to zero issues. What does that give us? Now we have
>> 500 issues with 2 responses. Sure, it makes further correspondence
>> more likely, but it's not solving any real issues and making any
>> measurably significant impact.
>>
> 
> Sure it could make a difference. People who submit issues will
> appreciate *some* response a great deal more than no response. More than
> that, if we have people dedicated to looking at new issues then we are
> more likely to *resolve* some that would otherwise "slip through the net".
> 
> 
>> While I do think the "no response" query can be helpful, let's not
>> attribute too much value to tiny tweaks of the tracker and reporting.
>> Benjamin is right -- manpower is where we'll benefit the most, not in
>> the manner we paint the current issue situation.
> 
> Sure. *Part* of drawing in more manpower can be engaging with those
> submitting issues and seeing if we can get them to post patches and / or
> tests - and suck them as far into Python development as we possibly can.
> ;-) For many people submitting an issue may be their first contact with
> Python developers and the Python development process (just as for others
> posting to Python-dev will be their first contact - even if they really
> should be posting to comp.lang.python instead).
> 

I agree with Michael that response to first issue posting is an
important potential recruitment channel.

It's important, though, that the response is friendly and encouraging
(not that there's anyone on this list who doesn't have those two
characteristics :-). And certainly not automated - that wouldn't help at
all.

regards
 Steve
-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Terry Reedy]

On 8/2/2010 12:54 PM, Brian Curtin wrote:

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:39, Ralf Schmitt mailto:r...@brainbot.com>> wrote:

Benjamin Peterson mailto:benja...@python.org>>
writes:

 > Please, let's stop messing with the tracker for everything. I think
 > the current set up works reasonably well, and we should focus on the
 > real problem: manpower


Two months ago, I discovered and reported that about 1/5 of open issues 
had no responses. Is that 'reasonably well'? I do not remember other 
reports on that, at least not for a few years. A 'show unanswered' link 
might make it easier to recruit people to be first-responders by making 
it easier to do first response. This hardly amounts to 'messing with the 
tracker'. Rather, it is using the current mechanism by adding a link.



Ignoring issues (probably even with some patches attached) will drive
contributors away. That's not the way to increase manpower.


As a said before, I think people who have posted, certainly people who 
have had fixes committed, should get an invitation letter. One 
suggestion on that could be to click 'show unanswered' if that were 
available.



Overall the "no response" query just passes the buck. Let's say we get
that query down to zero issues. What does that give us? Now we have 500
issues with 2 responses. Sure, it makes further correspondence more
likely, but it's not solving any real issues and making any measurably
significant impact.


If a question response elicits no answer, the issue can be closed as 
out-of-date. But several times in the past two months, first responses 
have lead to more responses from both OP and developers who watch the 
tracker message list. Some have been closed as fixed already. Example:

   http://bugs.python.org/issue3874
The OP's first response was to gripe about no response earlier. His 
second was to write an entry that Georg could cut, paste, format, and 
commit.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Mark Smith]

If I may comment *as* a new contributor: Terry responded almost immediately
to my first issue raised, and that was a huge boost. If no-one had replied
at all, I suspect I would never have spent any more time contributing to any
part of Python. (And I contributed 8 more hours today.)

Incidentally, given that this is my first post: Hi everyone, my name's Mark
Smith. I'm a Python contractor based in Edinburgh, and my nick on IRC is
juD2k (for strange, yet dull historical reasons) :-)

--Mark
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Michael Foord]

On 02/08/2010 17:54, Brian Curtin wrote:
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:39, Ralf Schmitt > wrote:


Benjamin Peterson mailto:benja...@python.org>> writes:

> Please, let's stop messing with the tracker for everything. I think
> the current set up works reasonably well, and we should focus on the
> real problem: manpower

Ignoring issues (probably even with some patches attached) will drive
contributors away. That's not the way to increase manpower.

- Ralf


Overall the "no response" query just passes the buck. Let's say we get 
that query down to zero issues. What does that give us? Now we have 
500 issues with 2 responses. Sure, it makes further correspondence 
more likely, but it's not solving any real issues and making any 
measurably significant impact.




Sure it could make a difference. People who submit issues will 
appreciate *some* response a great deal more than no response. More than 
that, if we have people dedicated to looking at new issues then we are 
more likely to *resolve* some that would otherwise "slip through the net".



While I do think the "no response" query can be helpful, let's not 
attribute too much value to tiny tweaks of the tracker and reporting. 
Benjamin is right -- manpower is where we'll benefit the most, not in 
the manner we paint the current issue situation.


Sure. *Part* of drawing in more manpower can be engaging with those 
submitting issues and seeing if we can get them to post patches and / or 
tests - and suck them as far into Python development as we possibly can. 
;-) For many people submitting an issue may be their first contact with 
Python developers and the Python development process (just as for others 
posting to Python-dev will be their first contact - even if they really 
should be posting to comp.lang.python instead).


All the best,

Michael



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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Brian Curtin]

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:39, Ralf Schmitt  wrote:

> Benjamin Peterson  writes:
>
> > Please, let's stop messing with the tracker for everything. I think
> > the current set up works reasonably well, and we should focus on the
> > real problem: manpower
>
> Ignoring issues (probably even with some patches attached) will drive
> contributors away. That's not the way to increase manpower.
>
> - Ralf


Overall the "no response" query just passes the buck. Let's say we get that
query down to zero issues. What does that give us? Now we have 500 issues
with 2 responses. Sure, it makes further correspondence more likely, but
it's not solving any real issues and making any measurably significant
impact.

While I do think the "no response" query can be helpful, let's not attribute
too much value to tiny tweaks of the tracker and reporting. Benjamin is
right -- manpower is where we'll benefit the most, not in the manner we
paint the current issue situation.
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Mark Lawrence]

On 02/08/2010 17:39, Ralf Schmitt wrote:

Benjamin Peterson  writes:


Please, let's stop messing with the tracker for everything. I think
the current set up works reasonably well, and we should focus on the
real problem: manpower


Ignoring issues (probably even with some patches attached) will drive
contributors away. That's not the way to increase manpower.

- Ralf

+1

Mark Lawrence.

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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Ralf Schmitt]

Benjamin Peterson  writes:

> Please, let's stop messing with the tracker for everything. I think
> the current set up works reasonably well, and we should focus on the
> real problem: manpower

Ignoring issues (probably even with some patches attached) will drive
contributors away. That's not the way to increase manpower.

- Ralf
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Mark Lawrence]

On 02/08/2010 03:54, Benjamin Peterson wrote:

2010/7/31 Éric Araujo:

Good call.

Alternative idea: Have a new status “unread” to make searching easier
for bug people. Or a predefined custom search for nosy_count == 1.


Please, let's stop messing with the tracker for everything. I think
the current set up works reasonably well, and we should focus on the
real problem: manpower



I disagree entirely with this comment.  Perhaps we should simply agree 
to disagree, but I can't see how having issues that have been sitting 
for years without any response at all ties in with "the current set up 
works reasonably well".  The number was over 500 when Terry Reedy put 
his orphan tracker request on c.l.py.  IMHO a reply along the lines of 
"bugger off we're far too busy" would be better than nothing.  Failing 
that the simple "please provide a code and unit test patch" seems to 
work quite well.  Failing that "I'm going to close this because nobody 
is interested" works extremely well in waking people up! :)  All of 
these are better than complete silence.  I also believe that the latter 
of my suggestions should be used when the OP has shown no interest in 
moving the issue despite being asked to do so.


Just me tuppence worth.

Mark Lawrence.


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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Ron Adam]

On 08/02/2010 03:57 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Ron Adam writes:

  >  Something that may be more useful, is a "no activity" search field
  >  with choices of day, week, month, year, etc... and make the output
  >  sortable on time without activity.

That's exactly what a sort on date of activity gives you, though, and
it can be from longest down.


Yes, but when I do it, I either get a single specific day, or 2700 issues.



Also, I think that most of the "date" fields actually allow ranges
(iirc something like "today - 1 year, today" works, I've never
actually used them), but I don't think this can be easily negated in
the stock Roundup.  What could be done though is something like
"created Jan 1 1970, today - 2 years AND open" to find bugs that have
been hanging fire for more than two years.


Have you tried it?  I tried various different spelling and could only enter 
one specific day, "today" works, but "1 month" or "2 years" doesn't.


What does work is entering a partial date, ie...  2010-07 for all issues 
with activity this july. Or 2010 for all issues with activity this year.


Ron

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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Ron Adam writes:

 > Something that may be more useful, is a "no activity" search field
 > with choices of day, week, month, year, etc... and make the output
 > sortable on time without activity.

That's exactly what a sort on date of activity gives you, though, and
it can be from longest down.

Also, I think that most of the "date" fields actually allow ranges
(iirc something like "today - 1 year, today" works, I've never
actually used them), but I don't think this can be easily negated in
the stock Roundup.  What could be done though is something like
"created Jan 1 1970, today - 2 years AND open" to find bugs that have
been hanging fire for more than two years.

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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Benjamin Peterson]

2010/7/31 Éric Araujo :
> Good call.
>
> Alternative idea: Have a new status “unread” to make searching easier
> for bug people. Or a predefined custom search for nosy_count == 1.

Please, let's stop messing with the tracker for everything. I think
the current set up works reasonably well, and we should focus on the
real problem: manpower



-- 
Regards,
Benjamin
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Ron Adam]

On 08/01/2010 06:14 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:

On 8/1/2010 7:44 AM, Éric Araujo wrote:

+1 On a prebuilt search

This is not as easy as it seems.
A nosy count of 1 misses posts where someone added themself as nosy
without saying anything, waiting for someone else to answer (and maybe
no one ever did). A message count of 1 misses posts where a person
follows up with a correction (because he cannot edit!) or addition.
nosy = 1 or message = 1 would be better, and one cannot do that from
search form, which, ANDS things together. Can a custom sql query do an OR?


There is an activity field which gets any issues with activity on a 
specific day.  I'm not sure how useful that is. 


Something that may be more useful, is a "no activity" search field with 
choices of day, week, month, year, etc... and make the output sortable on 
time without activity.


That not only would cover the short term cases of no response, but also the 
longer term items that slip though the cracks.


Ron


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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Terry Reedy]

On 8/1/2010 7:44 AM, Éric Araujo wrote:

+1 On a prebuilt search

This is not as easy as it seems.
A nosy count of 1 misses posts where someone added themself as nosy 
without saying anything, waiting for someone else to answer (and maybe 
no one ever did). A message count of 1 misses posts where a person 
follows up with a correction (because he cannot edit!) or addition.
nosy = 1 or message = 1 would be better, and one cannot do that from 
search form, which, ANDS things together. Can a custom sql query do an OR?



Perhaps just another number to track in the weekly bug summary?


*puts bug person hat on* I made the same suggestion to Ezio, so +1


If Friday report marked issues without responses, I would make a special 
effort to look at those.


--
Terry Jan Reedy


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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Ezio Melotti]

 On 01/08/2010 20.43, R. David Murray wrote:

On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:28:05 +1000, Nick Coghlan  wrote:

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Mark Lawrence  wrote:

I plucked this figure out of the air thinking that if an issue was going to
drop under the radar, this would be the most likely time. I was considering
a worst case scenario where several core triage people are at a big Python
event, others are on holiday [ shame on you :) ], some looking after the
kids, yet more off sick etc. Hum, perhaps 24 hours is too soon, what a bout
a week, opinions anybody? Notifications would go to the bugs mailing list
and/or #python-dev. But this is hypothetical anyway if the message count of
1 query works. Only one way to find out, let's try it.

Perhaps just another number to track in the weekly bug summary?

Better, a table section giving the bugids, titles, and URL.  Ezio just
finished reworking the summary script to be more easily modified, so I
bet he would find this easy to add at this point.

--David

FWIW this morning I added a new version of the roundup-summary script 
[0] that includes a "Recent issues with no replies" table with bugids, 
titles and URLs. (I hope Guido doesn't mind if I used the time machine ;)


[0]: http://psf.upfronthosting.co.za/roundup/meta/issue284
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[R. David Murray]

On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:28:05 +1000, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> > I plucked this figure out of the air thinking that if an issue was going to
> > drop under the radar, this would be the most likely time. I was considering
> > a worst case scenario where several core triage people are at a big Python
> > event, others are on holiday [ shame on you :) ], some looking after the
> > kids, yet more off sick etc. Hum, perhaps 24 hours is too soon, what a bout
> > a week, opinions anybody? Notifications would go to the bugs mailing list
> > and/or #python-dev. But this is hypothetical anyway if the message count of
> > 1 query works. Only one way to find out, let's try it.
> 
> Perhaps just another number to track in the weekly bug summary?

Better, a table section giving the bugids, titles, and URL.  Ezio just
finished reworking the summary script to be more easily modified, so I
bet he would find this easy to add at this point.

--David
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Éric Araujo]

> Perhaps just another number to track in the weekly bug summary?

*puts bug person hat on* I made the same suggestion to Ezio, so +1

I’ve just created a public query named “Reports without replies”, you
should be able to add it to your queries list, or a tracker admin could
decide to add it to the queries that are always visible in the sidebar.

Regards

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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Nick Coghlan]

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> I plucked this figure out of the air thinking that if an issue was going to
> drop under the radar, this would be the most likely time.  I was considering
> a worst case scenario where several core triage people are at a big Python
> event, others are on holiday [ shame on you :) ], some looking after the
> kids, yet more off sick etc.  Hum, perhaps 24 hours is too soon, what about
> a week, opinions anybody?  Notifications would go to the bugs mailing list
> and/or #python-dev.  But this is hypothetical anyway if the message count of
> 1 query works.  Only one way to find out, let's try it.

Perhaps just another number to track in the weekly bug summary?

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Mark Lawrence]

On 01/08/2010 02:00, Brian Curtin wrote:

On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 19:48, Mark Lawrencewrote:


Hi all,

I have been wading through outstanding issues today and have noticed that
there are several where there has been no response at all to the initial
post.  Failing that, the only response has been Terry Reedy back in May
2010, and that only updating the versions affected.

Would it be possible to get some code in place whereby if there is no
response to the initial post, this could be flagged up after (say) 24 hours?
  Surely any response back to the OP is better than a complete wall of
silence?

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.



We could just add globally visible query which shows all issues with a
message count of 1. That query currently shows 372 issues, most of which
were entered within the last few months.


The query strikes me as KISS, let's try it and see how we go.  On this 
thread on c.l.py "500 tracker orphans; we need more reviewers" started 
by Terry Reedy it was quoted that there were 510 orphans as at Jun 19, 
3:37 am.  We're getting there.




24 hours seems too soon for any kind of notification. Who would receive this
notification?


I plucked this figure out of the air thinking that if an issue was going 
to drop under the radar, this would be the most likely time.  I was 
considering a worst case scenario where several core triage people are 
at a big Python event, others are on holiday [ shame on you :) ], some 
looking after the kids, yet more off sick etc.  Hum, perhaps 24 hours is 
too soon, what about a week, opinions anybody?  Notifications would go 
to the bugs mailing list and/or #python-dev.  But this is hypothetical 
anyway if the message count of 1 query works.  Only one way to find out, 
let's try it.


Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Nick Coghlan]

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Brian Curtin  wrote:
> We could just add globally visible query which shows all issues with a
> message count of 1. That query currently shows 372 issues, most of which
> were entered within the last few months.
> 24 hours seems too soon for any kind of notification. Who would receive this
> notification?

The query for unreviewed issues to help out the triage folks sounds
like an excellent idea.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Brian Curtin]

On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 19:48, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have been wading through outstanding issues today and have noticed that
> there are several where there has been no response at all to the initial
> post.  Failing that, the only response has been Terry Reedy back in May
> 2010, and that only updating the versions affected.
>
> Would it be possible to get some code in place whereby if there is no
> response to the initial post, this could be flagged up after (say) 24 hours?
>  Surely any response back to the OP is better than a complete wall of
> silence?
>
> Kindest regards.
>
> Mark Lawrence.
>

We could just add globally visible query which shows all issues with a
message count of 1. That query currently shows 372 issues, most of which
were entered within the last few months.

24 hours seems too soon for any kind of notification. Who would receive this
notification?
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Re: [Python-Dev] No response to posts

[Éric Araujo]

Good call.

Alternative idea: Have a new status “unread” to make searching easier
for bug people. Or a predefined custom search for nosy_count == 1.

Regards

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