RE: Fastest web framework
Per community request turbogears and pysi were added. The following posts have been updated: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/python-web-pep8-consistency.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy From: andriy.kornats...@live.com To: python-list@python.org Subject: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 12:19:16 +0300 I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Alex, You can read wheezy.web introduction here: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/wheezy-web-introduction.html Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:26:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Fastest web framework From: wuwe...@gmail.com To: python-list@python.org On Oct 15, 11:40 pm, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: Comments or suggestions are welcome. Performance speed is possibly the least interesting aspect of web frameworks; ease of use readily re-usable 3rd party code figures much higher, IMO. Rather than constantly hammer on about performance, maybe you could take the time to explain any other advantages your framework provides. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Web content caching is the most effective type of cache. This way your python handler is not executed to determine a valid response to user, instead one returned from cache. Since the operation is that simple, it should be the maximum possible speed your `real world` application capable to provide. The web content caching benchmark is provided for two types of caching: memory and distributed. There is payed attention how gzip transform impact throughput of cached content. Read more here: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/python-web-caching-benchmark.html Your ability to utilize managed (semi-real time) caching is essential to be able run your `real world` at the speed of `hello world`. Read more here: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.http/userguide.html#content-cache http://packages.python.org/wheezy.web/tutorial.html Compare throughput with numbers from the other post: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy From: andriy.kornats...@live.com To: python-list@python.org Subject: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 12:19:16 +0300 I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Per community request I have updated benchmarks for web2py 2.1.1 release (the newer version performs 26% better; no error while running on pypy): Here are updated posts, just in case: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/python-web-routing-benchmark.html Thanks. Andriy From: andriy.kornats...@live.com To: python-list@python.org Subject: RE: Fastest web framework Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 16:44:19 +0300 How fast python web framework process routing (URL dispatch)? Here is a benchmark for various web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, tornado and wheezy.web) running the following routing: static, dynamic, SEO and missing... with a trivial 'hello world' application (all routes are pointing to the same handler). http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/python-web-routing-benchmark.html Benchmark is executed in isolated environment using CPython 2.7. Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy From: andriy.kornats...@live.com To: python-list@python.org Subject: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 12:19:16 +0300 I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Alex, Thank you, see my answers inline to your comments: Performance speed is possibly the least interesting aspect of web frameworks; Performance and effectivity are related metrics. Longer feature list can not explain why it less effective. An answer to effectivity question might be related to: - code quality (we have PEP8) - architectural decisions taken - core team experience - historical path, etc. ease of use readily re-usable 3rd party code figures much higher, IMO. I think these are very valid requirements for the modern web framework. I believe all web frameworks are easy to use (... some too seriously take this?), of cause readability/flexibility counts. There is a problem with 3rd party code... it should evolve with framework... so good one become a part of it. 3rd party UI things are good, until you start `customize` them, patch, workaround, etc. This is where pain come from. However, there are exceptions. Can you name few? Rather than constantly hammer on about performance, maybe you could take the time to explain any other advantages your framework provides. Let me state this: wheezy.web let you design web application to be able run it at the speed of `hello world`, even database driven one. Here is how: use content caching with cache dependency. Read more: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.http/userguide.html#content-cache Invest 30 minutes to understand it: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.web/tutorial.html All web frameworks are good, some better. It is important what you see as an advantage... Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:26:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Fastest web framework From: wuwe...@gmail.com To: python-list@python.org On Oct 15, 11:40 pm, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: Comments or suggestions are welcome. Performance speed is possibly the least interesting aspect of web frameworks; ease of use readily re-usable 3rd party code figures much higher, IMO. Rather than constantly hammer on about performance, maybe you could take the time to explain any other advantages your framework provides. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
Let me say right off the bat that I've taken a brief look through the code and documentation and found that I wouldn't mind trying it out for personal projects. So, the intention here is not to slag the framework. Performance and effectivity are related metrics. Longer feature list can not explain why it less effective. An answer to effectivity question might be related to: - code quality (we have PEP8) Any static code analysis such as pylint or pyflakes? - architectural decisions taken What (sample of) decisions? How do they differ from other frameworks? How will they make my life better? - core team experience Not sure this is entirely relevant (imho). Engineers with great experience on paper may still make poor decisions and output shoddy work. Conversely, a new grad (or weekend hacker) may have a solid understanding and output amazing work. - historical path, etc. What does this mean? There is a problem with 3rd party code... it should evolve with framework... so good one become a part of it. 3rd party UI things are good, until you start `customize` them, patch, workaround, etc. This is where pain come from. However, there are exceptions. Can you name few? [Disclaimer: personal opinion] I couldn't disagree more. A good framework provides the glue for various subsystems to work amazingly well together. Perhaps this is why I'm drawn to micro-frameworks and the likes of Pyramid. No assumptions are made about *how* I'm going to use the framework. Modularity is good. Do one thing and do it *very* well. Caching? Use beaker. ORM? Use SQLAlchemy. Let me state this: wheezy.web let you design web application to be able run it at the speed of `hello world`, even database driven one. This bothers me. It's misleading to newbies and it's just wrong. You simply *cannot* have a database driven application run at the exact same performance as a hello world app. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Demian, Thank you, I appreciate your input. See below. Performance and effectivity are related metrics. Longer feature list can not explain why it less effective. An answer to effectivity question might be related to: - code quality (we have PEP8) Any static code analysis such as pylint or pyflakes? Yep, good start with any of those. - architectural decisions taken What (sample of) decisions? How do they differ from other frameworks? How will they make my life better? The initial decisions taken while building a project might be wrong. Due to continues backward compatibility, you can not change them even you wish. Some projects die and same people start a new one, rethinking mistakes made. - core team experience Not sure this is entirely relevant (imho). Engineers with great experience on paper may still make poor decisions and output shoddy work. Conversely, a new grad (or weekend hacker) may have a solid understanding and output amazing work. The question is about the practical things you do daily. You might laugh of your first project, you continue to move forward and got respect as it is now. Imagine you continue to fix your first program up to now, you will probably write is somewhat differently. Same applies to frameworks, pursue effectiveness for more: users served, application hosted, etc. Some, just can not. - historical path, etc. What does this mean? The frameworks are not written in one day, they have historical path with many hands on it. This change it, not always right way. There is a problem with 3rd party code... it should evolve with framework... so good one become a part of it. 3rd party UI things are good, until you start `customize` them, patch, workaround, etc. This is where pain come from. However, there are exceptions. Can you name few? [Disclaimer: personal opinion] I couldn't disagree more. A good framework provides the glue for various subsystems to work amazingly well together. Perhaps this is why I'm drawn to micro-frameworks and the likes of Pyramid. No assumptions are made about *how* I'm going to use the framework. Modularity is good. Do one thing and do it *very* well. Caching? Use beaker. ORM? Use SQLAlchemy. That glue is usability case: recommendation how to use it with one or the other. Let me state this: wheezy.web let you design web application to be able run it at the speed of `hello world`, even database driven one. This bothers me. It's misleading to newbies and it's just wrong. You simply *cannot* have a database driven application run at the exact same performance as a hello world app. For you, personally, let me point this again. N.P. Here is how: use content caching with cache dependency. Read more: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.http/userguide.html#content-cache Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
On 10/16/2012 7:47 AM, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I think that my first batch of questions were slightly out of context, mostly due to a lack of caffeine first thing in the morning. My understanding at the time was that your an answer to effectivity was, in fact, a list of highlights for wheezy.web (which is why I asked the questions I did). Having said that.. The initial decisions taken while building a project might be wrong. Due to continues backward compatibility, you can not change them even you wish. You can always deprecate old functionality in favor of new solutions. I'd be hard pressed to find a reason to find a reason why something *can't* be deprecated. It may not be easy at times, but it should always be doable. That glue is usability case: recommendation how to use it with one or the other. As long as your framework doesn't require you to fight with it in order to use another solution. One of my early gripes with Django for example (ages ago) was that it felt like I had to fight the framework in order to introduce functionality that wasn't natively supported. For you, personally, let me point this again. N.P. Here is how: use content caching with cache dependency. Read more: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.http/userguide.html#content-cache It doesn't matter if you're using cached content or not. It will *not* be as fast as a hard-coded, simple response (not that a static, hard-coded response is the way to go obviously). I don't think I have to get into the details about I/O. My point is simply that the statement that a database driven site (cached content or not), *can not* be as fast as a hello world app. My comment may be construed as being nit-picky, but I thought it was worth calling out due to the matter-of-fact wording that you used. On a somewhat unrelated note, I caught a minor typo in the content-cache docs: Since there is no heavy processing and just simple operation to get an item from cache it should be supper fast I don't know about you, but my supper generally isn't fast ;) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Demian, Thank you, see below. I think that my first batch of questions were slightly out of context, mostly due to a lack of caffeine first thing in the morning. My understanding at the time was that your an answer to effectivity was, in fact, a list of highlights for wheezy.web (which is why I asked the questions I did). Having said that.. The initial decisions taken while building a project might be wrong. Due to continues backward compatibility, you can not change them even you wish. You can always deprecate old functionality in favor of new solutions. I'd be hard pressed to find a reason to find a reason why something *can't* be deprecated. It may not be easy at times, but it should always be doable. And that is the problem. Some can not deprecate and die (see pylons, now pyramid). Some can not die nor deprecate (see django). That glue is usability case: recommendation how to use it with one or the other. As long as your framework doesn't require you to fight with it in order to use another solution. One of my early gripes with Django for example (ages ago) was that it felt like I had to fight the framework in order to introduce functionality that wasn't natively supported. For you, personally, let me point this again. N.P. Here is how: use content caching with cache dependency. Read more: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.http/userguide.html#content-cache It doesn't matter if you're using cached content or not. It will *not* be as fast as a hard-coded, simple response (not that a static, hard-coded response is the way to go obviously). I don't think I have to get into the details about I/O. My point is simply that the statement that a database driven site (cached content or not), *can not* be as fast as a hello world app. My comment may be construed as being nit-picky, but I thought it was worth calling out due to the matter-of-fact wording that you used. It does. There is certain level after which performance of `hello world` will not differ from real world application. The hardware I used got that limit at 22-24K per second. That is why I made isolated benchmarks. See difference between wsgi sample and others. http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html On a somewhat unrelated note, I caught a minor typo in the content-cache docs: Since there is no heavy processing and just simple operation to get an item from cache it should be supper fast I don't know about you, but my supper generally isn't fast ;) You will see. Thanks. supper = super ;-) Somewhat later in a week there will be another benchmark for... caching. Take care. Andriy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
How fast python web frameworks reverse urls? While routing is a mapping of incoming request to a handler, url reverse function is designed to build urls for those handlers. A web page may have a number of urls from few dozen to hundreds... all related to your web site (e.g. links between related pages, tag cloud, most viewed posts, etc). Here is a benchmark for various web frameworks (django, flask, pyramid, tornado and wheezy.web): http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/python-web-reverse-urls-benchmark.html Benchmark is executed in isolated environment using CPython 2.7. Source is here: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/helloworld/src/tip/03-urls Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy From: andriy.kornats...@live.com To: python-list@python.org Subject: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 12:19:16 +0300 I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
On Oct 15, 11:40 pm, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: Comments or suggestions are welcome. Performance speed is possibly the least interesting aspect of web frameworks; ease of use readily re-usable 3rd party code figures much higher, IMO. Rather than constantly hammer on about performance, maybe you could take the time to explain any other advantages your framework provides. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
How fast python web framework process routing (URL dispatch)? Here is a benchmark for various web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, tornado and wheezy.web) running the following routing: static, dynamic, SEO and missing... with a trivial 'hello world' application (all routes are pointing to the same handler). http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/python-web-routing-benchmark.html Benchmark is executed in isolated environment using CPython 2.7. Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy From: andriy.kornats...@live.com To: python-list@python.org Subject: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 12:19:16 +0300 I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
In order to provide more reliable benchmark, I get rid of application server and network boundary. As a result I simulated a valid WSGI request and isolated calls just to the web framework alone. Also I found interesting to take a look at total number of calls and unique functions used by corresponding web framework. The post has been updated: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Isolated benchmark source code is here: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/helloworld/src/tip/benchmark.py I should mention several web frameworks experience huge memory leaks in this benchmark. BONUS: added benchmark for python 3.3 (for the web frameworks that support it) and plain simple WSGI application (for contrast). Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy From: andriy.kornats...@live.com To: ta...@ziade.org Subject: RE: Fastest web framework Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:18:32 +0300 CC: python-list@python.org Tarek, My response inline to your: You are not getting my point. What happens to weezhy or XXX framework when you are running it in a given stack, under heavy load ? let me correct you, it is wheezy.web (not `weezhy`). Tell me your definition of web framework heavy load. If you have one, we can try benchmark it. There are many interactions that may impact the behavior of the stack - most of them are in the web server itself, but they can be things in the framework too, depending on the architectural choice. The reason I choose uWSGI is due to minimal possible impact that application server may cause. Since this component `equally influence` productivity of each framework it can be to some degree ignored. And you will not know it with an hello world app. To put it more bluntly, your benchmark is going to join the big pile of hello worlds benchmarks that are completely meaningless. Can not agree. This is just simple thing. Simple things should run fast, no doubt. If you can provide a better idea as to which framework calls to put into benchmark, I will be happy extend the benchmark case. If you want to prove that weezhy is faster than another py framework, because, I dunno, the number of function calls are smaller ? then you need to isolate this and do a different kind of bench. Have a look at http://plope.com/pyroptimization , it's a good example The numbers provided in that article are incorrect. They didn't match results from the file they provide (result.txt in each framework dir) at the time of writing. I have used that idea to re-run things (isolated benchmark; report with total time, total number of calls and number of distinct functions used). See here: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/helloworld/src/tip/benchmark.py I will update original post a bit later (to let you comment on this). Same thing for the raw speed of your templating engine - isolation is required. Improved bigtable benchmark report by adding total number of calls and number distinct functions used: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/wheezy.template/src/tip/demos/bigtable/bigtable.py Original post not updated yet. One good read: http://blog.ianbicking.org/2010/03/16/web-server-benchmarking-we-need/ Sounds not so bad. It points to some specific workloads. Any attempt to prioritize and/or practically implement them? Thanks. Andriy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Tarek, My response inline to your: You are not getting my point. What happens to weezhy or XXX framework when you are running it in a given stack, under heavy load ? let me correct you, it is wheezy.web (not `weezhy`). Tell me your definition of web framework heavy load. If you have one, we can try benchmark it. There are many interactions that may impact the behavior of the stack - most of them are in the web server itself, but they can be things in the framework too, depending on the architectural choice. The reason I choose uWSGI is due to minimal possible impact that application server may cause. Since this component `equally influence` productivity of each framework it can be to some degree ignored. And you will not know it with an hello world app. To put it more bluntly, your benchmark is going to join the big pile of hello worlds benchmarks that are completely meaningless. Can not agree. This is just simple thing. Simple things should run fast, no doubt. If you can provide a better idea as to which framework calls to put into benchmark, I will be happy extend the benchmark case. If you want to prove that weezhy is faster than another py framework, because, I dunno, the number of function calls are smaller ? then you need to isolate this and do a different kind of bench. Have a look at http://plope.com/pyroptimization , it's a good example The numbers provided in that article are incorrect. They didn't match results from the file they provide (result.txt in each framework dir) at the time of writing. I have used that idea to re-run things (isolated benchmark; report with total time, total number of calls and number of distinct functions used). See here: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/helloworld/src/tip/benchmark.py I will update original post a bit later (to let you comment on this). Same thing for the raw speed of your templating engine - isolation is required. Improved bigtable benchmark report by adding total number of calls and number distinct functions used: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/wheezy.template/src/tip/demos/bigtable/bigtable.py Original post not updated yet. One good read: http://blog.ianbicking.org/2010/03/16/web-server-benchmarking-we-need/ Sounds not so bad. It points to some specific workloads. Any attempt to prioritize and/or practically implement them? Thanks. Andriy Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:41:26 +0200 From: ta...@ziade.org To: andriy.kornats...@live.com CC: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Fastest web framework On 9/26/12 11:26 AM, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: Tarek, Thank you for the response back. Yes, your idea is pretty clear to me. The point is that higher workload you put in your application business logic, repository, backend, whatever... less you will see in final results comparison. This is obvious and we, as technical people, very well understand this (somebody even laugh). I am happy somebody got a good laugh, I had a myself a good coffee :) The reality is that not all web applications do heavy CPU computations and/or experience IO delays (due to response from database running a query over table that has no index, let say), some use caches, some split jobs to be run in background, some parallel them... I have to state that simple things must perform really fast to give more room for one that are not so. That in turn makes your infrastructure more effective. Some prefer to add a box, some see that a likely to be a problem further it goes. The good thing - you have a choice, you are not locked, and as result you are responsible for the effectiveness of the system you build today and definitely next one. Take care. Andriy You are not getting my point. What happens to weezhy or XXX framework when you are running it in a given stack, under heavy load ? There are many interactions that may impact the behavior of the stack - most of them are in the web server itself, but they can be things in the framework too, depending on the architectural choice. And you will not know it with an hello world app. To put it more bluntly, your benchmark is going to join the big pile of hello worlds benchmarks that are completely meaningless. If you want to prove that weezhy is faster than another py framework, because, I dunno, the number of function calls are smaller ? then you need to isolate this and do a different kind of bench. Have a look at http://plope.com/pyroptimization , it's a good example Same thing for the raw speed of your templating engine - isolation is required. One good read: http://blog.ianbicking.org/2010/03/16/web-server-benchmarking-we-need/ Cheers Tarek Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:08:19 +0200 From: ta...@ziade.org To: andriy.kornats...@live.com CC: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Fastest web framework On 9/25/12 3:21 PM, Andriy
RE: Fastest web framework
CherryPy is in the list now. http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Thanks. Andriy From: andriy.kornats...@live.com To: python-list@python.org Subject: RE: Fastest web framework Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:52:25 +0300 The post has been updated with two more frameworks (per community request): tornado and web2py. Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy From: andriy.kornats...@live.com To: python-list@python.org Subject: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 12:19:16 +0300 I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: Try to see 'Hello World' benchmark as an answer to the question how effective is the framework inside... If computer X boots faster than Y, it means it is more effective in this particular area. If a sportsman runs a distance 1 second faster than other, he got a medal (it is not quite adequate to say if I load sportsman with 50 kilo bag he will not run that fast... just try split the concerns). Thanks. Andriy Not really, it depends on what each computer is doing during boot. To switch to the sportsman analogy, if sportsman A has to run 1 mile and along the way pick up 1 lb/kg every .1 mile while sportsman B has to pick up all the weight at the start. It is conceivable that sportsman A runs completes the run in 10 minutes while sportsman B runs the time in 9 minutes. Sportsman A might run the first .1 miles faster (sportsman A boots faster, but that is most likely less important than the overall long-term/real-world time to complete the task. This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses, confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers, available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
On 9/25/12 3:21 PM, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: Tarek, With all respect, running benchmark on something that has sleeps, etc is pretty far from real world use case. So I went a little bit different way. That's not a good summary of what the function does. It does not just sleep. It does some I/O and CPU bound tasks. The sleep is here to simulate a blocking I/O call, besides the DB calls. The whole function tries to simulate a real application, unlike printing 'Hello World' - to put the stack under realistic conditions. The multiplication is cached by the processor, but will still push some CPU work on every call. Here is a live demo (a semi real world web application) that comes with wheezy.web framework as a template: http://wheezy.pythonanywhere.com/ I have implemented it in a way that it uses one web framework (wheezy.web) and various template engines (jinja2, mako, tenjin, wheezy.template and wheezy.template with preprocessor)... Please see the following post under `Real World Example` section: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/07/python-fastest-template.html Source code here: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/wheezy.web/src/tip/demos/template The real world example shows the difference between template engines implementing the same things. The same applies to web frameworks (more or less depending on your choice). Thanks. Great, thanks for the update ! -- that's cool to bench the template engines, but this is still not what I had in mind. What I had in mind was to try each one of the framework with an application that does things, and see how the whole stack reacts on high load. But I guess we have different goals - wheezy seems really fast, congrats. Cheers Tarek Andriy Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 13:50:31 +0200 From: ta...@ziade.org To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Fastest web framework On 9/23/12 11:19 AM, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy I would try this with a web app that does more than 'Hello World' You may argue that you're just trying the server stack, but that's not realistic because you don't really measure how the server behaves with a real app. Have a look at https://github.com/mozilla-services/chaussette/blob/master/chaussette/util.py#L188 (setup_bench and teardow_bench have to be run on startup and tear down of the server) I would be curious to see how things goes then Cheers Tarek -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Tarek, Thank you for the response back. Yes, your idea is pretty clear to me. The point is that higher workload you put in your application business logic, repository, backend, whatever... less you will see in final results comparison. This is obvious and we, as technical people, very well understand this (somebody even laugh). The reality is that not all web applications do heavy CPU computations and/or experience IO delays (due to response from database running a query over table that has no index, let say), some use caches, some split jobs to be run in background, some parallel them... I have to state that simple things must perform really fast to give more room for one that are not so. That in turn makes your infrastructure more effective. Some prefer to add a box, some see that a likely to be a problem further it goes. The good thing - you have a choice, you are not locked, and as result you are responsible for the effectiveness of the system you build today and definitely next one. Take care. Andriy Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:08:19 +0200 From: ta...@ziade.org To: andriy.kornats...@live.com CC: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Fastest web framework On 9/25/12 3:21 PM, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: Tarek, With all respect, running benchmark on something that has sleeps, etc is pretty far from real world use case. So I went a little bit different way. That's not a good summary of what the function does. It does not just sleep. It does some I/O and CPU bound tasks. The sleep is here to simulate a blocking I/O call, besides the DB calls. The whole function tries to simulate a real application, unlike printing 'Hello World' - to put the stack under realistic conditions. The multiplication is cached by the processor, but will still push some CPU work on every call. Here is a live demo (a semi real world web application) that comes with wheezy.web framework as a template: http://wheezy.pythonanywhere.com/ I have implemented it in a way that it uses one web framework (wheezy.web) and various template engines (jinja2, mako, tenjin, wheezy.template and wheezy.template with preprocessor)... Please see the following post under `Real World Example` section: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/07/python-fastest-template.html Source code here: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/wheezy.web/src/tip/demos/template The real world example shows the difference between template engines implementing the same things. The same applies to web frameworks (more or less depending on your choice). Thanks. Great, thanks for the update ! -- that's cool to bench the template engines, but this is still not what I had in mind. What I had in mind was to try each one of the framework with an application that does things, and see how the whole stack reacts on high load. But I guess we have different goals - wheezy seems really fast, congrats. Cheers Tarek Andriy Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 13:50:31 +0200 From: ta...@ziade.org To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Fastest web framework On 9/23/12 11:19 AM, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy I would try this with a web app that does more than 'Hello World' You may argue that you're just trying the server stack, but that's not realistic because you don't really measure how the server behaves with a real app. Have a look at https://github.com/mozilla-services/chaussette/blob/master/chaussette/util.py#L188 (setup_bench and teardow_bench have to be run on startup and tear down of the server) I would be curious to see how things goes then Cheers Tarek -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
On 9/26/12 11:26 AM, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: Tarek, Thank you for the response back. Yes, your idea is pretty clear to me. The point is that higher workload you put in your application business logic, repository, backend, whatever... less you will see in final results comparison. This is obvious and we, as technical people, very well understand this (somebody even laugh). I am happy somebody got a good laugh, I had a myself a good coffee :) The reality is that not all web applications do heavy CPU computations and/or experience IO delays (due to response from database running a query over table that has no index, let say), some use caches, some split jobs to be run in background, some parallel them... I have to state that simple things must perform really fast to give more room for one that are not so. That in turn makes your infrastructure more effective. Some prefer to add a box, some see that a likely to be a problem further it goes. The good thing - you have a choice, you are not locked, and as result you are responsible for the effectiveness of the system you build today and definitely next one. Take care. Andriy You are not getting my point. What happens to weezhy or XXX framework when you are running it in a given stack, under heavy load ? There are many interactions that may impact the behavior of the stack - most of them are in the web server itself, but they can be things in the framework too, depending on the architectural choice. And you will not know it with an hello world app. To put it more bluntly, your benchmark is going to join the big pile of hello worlds benchmarks that are completely meaningless. If you want to prove that weezhy is faster than another py framework, because, I dunno, the number of function calls are smaller ? then you need to isolate this and do a different kind of bench. Have a look at http://plope.com/pyroptimization , it's a good example Same thing for the raw speed of your templating engine - isolation is required. One good read: http://blog.ianbicking.org/2010/03/16/web-server-benchmarking-we-need/ Cheers Tarek Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:08:19 +0200 From: ta...@ziade.org To: andriy.kornats...@live.com CC: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Fastest web framework On 9/25/12 3:21 PM, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: Tarek, With all respect, running benchmark on something that has sleeps, etc is pretty far from real world use case. So I went a little bit different way. That's not a good summary of what the function does. It does not just sleep. It does some I/O and CPU bound tasks. The sleep is here to simulate a blocking I/O call, besides the DB calls. The whole function tries to simulate a real application, unlike printing 'Hello World' - to put the stack under realistic conditions. The multiplication is cached by the processor, but will still push some CPU work on every call. Here is a live demo (a semi real world web application) that comes with wheezy.web framework as a template: http://wheezy.pythonanywhere.com/ I have implemented it in a way that it uses one web framework (wheezy.web) and various template engines (jinja2, mako, tenjin, wheezy.template and wheezy.template with preprocessor)... Please see the following post under `Real World Example` section: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/07/python-fastest-template.html Source code here: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/wheezy.web/src/tip/demos/template The real world example shows the difference between template engines implementing the same things. The same applies to web frameworks (more or less depending on your choice). Thanks. Great, thanks for the update ! -- that's cool to bench the template engines, but this is still not what I had in mind. What I had in mind was to try each one of the framework with an application that does things, and see how the whole stack reacts on high load. But I guess we have different goals - wheezy seems really fast, congrats. Cheers Tarek Andriy Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 13:50:31 +0200 From: ta...@ziade.org To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Fastest web framework On 9/23/12 11:19 AM, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy I would try this with a web app that does more than 'Hello World' You may argue that you're just trying the server stack, but that's not realistic because you don't really measure how the server behaves with a real app. Have a look at https://github.com/mozilla-services/chaussette/blob/master/chaussette/util.py#L188 (setup_bench
Re: Fastest web framework
to Andriy You can use a framework, however, the function from the framework has to be used, and the parameters utilized by the frameworks functions. It would seem that writing your own witin the main page, or using the original function in place from the framework would run a timeit better. I'll look later, but it seems correct in terms of enhancing the frameworks estimated(OS ops)time to completion. Andriy Kornatskyy 5:39 AM (5 minutes ago) to me David, This makes sense... and probably can pretend to be most accurate. Well, in a higher level language, such as Python, you have to remove layers in order to reduce interpreter completion time. So just the usage of a framework makes you utilize a function that has to be imported, accessed and run before the function completes using the parameters. It might be faster if you just used the function itself, or optimized it. -- Best Regards, David Hutto CEO: http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
David / Tarek, I believe you and Tarek are pointing the same things. If we want to get that far, we need, first of all, itemize the functions list and find their correspondences in other frameworks... or provide some script of potential calls to framework internal and translate those call to be specific for each framework. In this case we can profile results, capture benchmarks (e.g. with `timeit`) and figure out something more meaningful... yet point framework developers to attention. Does that sound like a thing you are trying to communicate? Thanks. Andriy Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 05:48:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Fastest web framework From: dwightdhu...@gmail.com To: ta...@ziade.org CC: andriy.kornats...@live.com; python-list@python.org to Andriy You can use a framework, however, the function from the framework has to be used, and the parameters utilized by the frameworks functions. It would seem that writing your own witin the main page, or using the original function in place from the framework would run a timeit better. I'll look later, but it seems correct in terms of enhancing the frameworks estimated(OS ops)time to completion. Andriy Kornatskyy 5:39 AM (5 minutes ago) to me David, This makes sense... and probably can pretend to be most accurate. Well, in a higher level language, such as Python, you have to remove layers in order to reduce interpreter completion time. So just the usage of a framework makes you utilize a function that has to be imported, accessed and run before the function completes using the parameters. It might be faster if you just used the function itself, or optimized it. -- Best Regards, David Hutto CEO: http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
Thanks Andriy for benchmarking web2py. With this public benchmark the entire web2py community will be hard at work to bring our numbers up higher :) On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: Alec While performing benchmark for web2py I noticed a memory leak. It constantly grows and never release it... Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 17:36:25 +1000 Subject: Re: Fastest web framework From: alec.tayl...@gmail.com To: andriy.kornats...@live.com CC: python-list@python.org Can you throw in web2py? Thanks On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.commailto:andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
The post has been updated with two more frameworks (per community request): tornado and web2py. Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy From: andriy.kornats...@live.com To: python-list@python.org Subject: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 12:19:16 +0300 I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Alec While performing benchmark for web2py I noticed a memory leak. It constantly grows and never release it... Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 17:36:25 +1000 Subject: Re: Fastest web framework From: alec.tayl...@gmail.com To: andriy.kornats...@live.com CC: python-list@python.org Can you throw in web2py? Thanks On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.commailto:andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Tarek, With all respect, running benchmark on something that has sleeps, etc is pretty far from real world use case. So I went a little bit different way. Here is a live demo (a semi real world web application) that comes with wheezy.web framework as a template: http://wheezy.pythonanywhere.com/ I have implemented it in a way that it uses one web framework (wheezy.web) and various template engines (jinja2, mako, tenjin, wheezy.template and wheezy.template with preprocessor)... Please see the following post under `Real World Example` section: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/07/python-fastest-template.html Source code here: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/wheezy.web/src/tip/demos/template The real world example shows the difference between template engines implementing the same things. The same applies to web frameworks (more or less depending on your choice). Thanks. Andriy Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 13:50:31 +0200 From: ta...@ziade.org To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Fastest web framework On 9/23/12 11:19 AM, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy I would try this with a web app that does more than 'Hello World' You may argue that you're just trying the server stack, but that's not realistic because you don't really measure how the server behaves with a real app. Have a look at https://github.com/mozilla-services/chaussette/blob/master/chaussette/util.py#L188 (setup_bench and teardow_bench have to be run on startup and tear down of the server) I would be curious to see how things goes then Cheers Tarek -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
David, Thank you for your comments. Please see my response inline to your questions. Well, lets break down timing something in a more scientific method approach through questioning. What's your processor speed? Please see environment specification at the end of post. Here is a copy just in case: Client: Intel Core 2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz × 4 Server: Intel Xeon CPU X3430 @ 2.40GHz x 4 LAN 1 Gb What is the constant temperature of the internals of your system? The server environment temperature is constant: 18C / 64F What OS, and version? Server: Debian Testing, Kernel 3.2.0-3-amd64, Python 2.7.3, uwsgi 1.2.6 Client: Debian Testing, Kernel 3.2.0-3-686-pae What other processes are running? There were used standalone server and client, with minimal to zero CPU/network activities on other processes (both, client and server, were dedicated to test purpose). Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy Date: Sun, 3 Sep 012 6::6::5 -400 Subject: Re: Fastest web framework From: dwightdhu...@gmail.com To: andriy.kornats...@live.com CC: python-list@python.org Hope I understood you correctly. Well, lets break down timing something in a more scientific method approach through questioning. What's your processor speed? What is the constant temperature of the internals of your system? What OS, and version? What other processes are running? There's a scientific method to what you're benchmarking. There have to be constants, and variables to benchmark with. These will of course vary with other methods of approach with the same code. -- Best Regards, David Hutto CEO: http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Alex, Are you on Python Planet? If not, you might want to syndicate your blog there to reach more of the Python web framework crowd. Thank you for your advise. I will send a request for addition to Python Planet. http://feeds.feedburner.com/MindReference Thanks. Andriy To: python-list@python.org From: acl...@aclark.net Subject: Re: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 17:25:20 -0400 On 2012-09-23 09:19:16 +, Andriy Kornatskyy said: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Are you on Python Planet? If not, you might want to syndicate your blog there to reach more of the Python web framework crowd. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- Alex Clark · http://pythonpackages.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
Can you throw in web2py? Thanks On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Accepted. Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 17:36:25 +1000 Subject: Re: Fastest web framework From: alec.tayl...@gmail.com To: andriy.kornats...@live.com CC: python-list@python.org Can you throw in web2py? Thanks On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.commailto:andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
On 9/23/12 11:19 AM, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy I would try this with a web app that does more than 'Hello World' You may argue that you're just trying the server stack, but that's not realistic because you don't really measure how the server behaves with a real app. Have a look at https://github.com/mozilla-services/chaussette/blob/master/chaussette/util.py#L188 (setup_bench and teardow_bench have to be run on startup and tear down of the server) I would be curious to see how things goes then Cheers Tarek -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
On Sun, 2012-09-23 at 12:19 +0300, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. The thing I don't like about these benchmarks is.. they tell you which framework is best for writing a trivial 'hello world' application. But no one writes trivial 'hello world' applications. A framework/programming language/software package/what-have-you. Can be really fast for trivial stuff, but perform much less favorably when performing real-world tasks. It's kind of the same argument that's used when people say X computer boots faster than Y computer. That's nice and all, but I spend much more of my time *using* my computer than *booting* it, so it doesn't give me a good picture of how the computers perform. This is why most good benchmarks run a series various tests based on real-world use cases. -a -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Try to see 'Hello World' benchmark as an answer to the question how effective is the framework inside... If computer X boots faster than Y, it means it is more effective in this particular area. If a sportsman runs a distance 1 second faster than other, he got a medal (it is not quite adequate to say if I load sportsman with 50 kilo bag he will not run that fast... just try split the concerns). Thanks. Andriy Subject: Re: Fastest web framework From: mar...@letterboxes.org To: python-list@python.org Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:42:00 -0400 On Sun, 2012-09-23 at 12:19 +0300, Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. The thing I don't like about these benchmarks is.. they tell you which framework is best for writing a trivial 'hello world' application. But no one writes trivial 'hello world' applications. A framework/programming language/software package/what-have-you. Can be really fast for trivial stuff, but perform much less favorably when performing real-world tasks. It's kind of the same argument that's used when people say X computer boots faster than Y computer. That's nice and all, but I spend much more of my time *using* my computer than *booting* it, so it doesn't give me a good picture of how the computers perform. This is why most good benchmarks run a series various tests based on real-world use cases. -a -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
In article mailman.1110.1348392023.27098.python-l...@python.org, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. That's a nice comparison, thanks for posting it. One thing that's worth pointing out, however, is that in a real world application, as long as you're using something halfway decent, the speed of the framework is probably not going to matter at all. It's much more likely that database throughput will be the dominating factor. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
Roy Smith, 23.09.2012 16:02: Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle,�django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. That's a nice comparison, thanks for posting it. One thing that's worth pointing out, however, is that in a real world application, as long as you're using something halfway decent, the speed of the framework is probably not going to matter at all. It's much more likely that database throughput will be the dominating factor. Yes, that makes the comparison (which may or may not be biased towards his own engine) a bit less interesting. Worth keeping this in mind: http://www.codeirony.com/?p=9 Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
On 23/09/2012 16:50, Stefan Behnel wrote: Roy Smith, 23.09.2012 16:02: Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle,�django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. That's a nice comparison, thanks for posting it. One thing that's worth pointing out, however, is that in a real world application, as long as you're using something halfway decent, the speed of the framework is probably not going to matter at all. It's much more likely that database throughput will be the dominating factor. Yes, that makes the comparison (which may or may not be biased towards his own engine) a bit less interesting. Worth keeping this in mind: http://www.codeirony.com/?p=9 Stefan I'd like to say thanks for the link but unfortunately for me, but good news for you (plural), is that I've bust a gut laughing out loud, so I won't :) Oh alright then thanks for the link. -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
If we take a look at web application we can split it into at least two parts, one that renders things out and the other one that does data extraction, e.g. from database (this is what you are pointing at). If you made a first call to database you get your list and can easily cache it. The next call IS without impact that database call may cause... but you still keep serving pages out... Thanks. Andriy From: r...@panix.com Subject: Re: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 10:02:28 -0400 To: python-list@python.org In article mailman.1110.1348392023.27098.python-l...@python.org, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. That's a nice comparison, thanks for posting it. One thing that's worth pointing out, however, is that in a real world application, as long as you're using something halfway decent, the speed of the framework is probably not going to matter at all. It's much more likely that database throughput will be the dominating factor. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
Andriy Kornatskyy, 23.09.2012 19:42: If we take a look at web application we can split it into at least two parts, one that renders things out and the other one that does data extraction, e.g. from database (this is what you are pointing at). If you made a first call to database you get your list and can easily cache it. The next call IS without impact that database call may cause... but you still keep serving pages out... Well, if it was really that easy, you wouldn't be using a database in the first place but static pages, would you? Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Few facts that doesn't make it less interesting: (1) the test source code available (2) the test itself is pretty famous (3) you can re-run it (4) or even better supply own that in your believe is 100% relevant Not every project has problem with database performance. Some use caching... and pretty happy. In my case I have got 2x boost of web application performance just by switching to wheezy.template, that simple. Thanks. Andriy To: python-list@python.org From: stefan...@behnel.de Subject: Re: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 17:50:20 +0200 Roy Smith, 23.09.2012 16:02: Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle,�django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. That's a nice comparison, thanks for posting it. One thing that's worth pointing out, however, is that in a real world application, as long as you're using something halfway decent, the speed of the framework is probably not going to matter at all. It's much more likely that database throughput will be the dominating factor. Yes, that makes the comparison (which may or may not be biased towards his own engine) a bit less interesting. Worth keeping this in mind: http://www.codeirony.com/?p=9 Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Good to know you are in a good humor today. You will be surprised... far not all share your point of view. ;-) Few links for you to stop laughing that loud: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.http/userguide.html#content-cache http://packages.python.org/wheezy.caching/userguide.html#cachedependency Andriy To: python-list@python.org From: breamore...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 18:20:03 +0100 On 23/09/2012 16:50, Stefan Behnel wrote: Roy Smith, 23.09.2012 16:02: Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle,�django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. That's a nice comparison, thanks for posting it. One thing that's worth pointing out, however, is that in a real world application, as long as you're using something halfway decent, the speed of the framework is probably not going to matter at all. It's much more likely that database throughput will be the dominating factor. Yes, that makes the comparison (which may or may not be biased towards his own engine) a bit less interesting. Worth keeping this in mind: http://www.codeirony.com/?p=9 Stefan I'd like to say thanks for the link but unfortunately for me, but good news for you (plural), is that I've bust a gut laughing out loud, so I won't :) Oh alright then thanks for the link. -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Good to know you are in a good humor today. You will be surprised... far not all share your point of view. ;-) Few links for you to stop laughing that loud: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.http/userguide.html#content-cache http://packages.python.org/wheezy.caching/userguide.html#cachedependency Andriy To: python-list@python.org From: breamore...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 18:20:03 +0100 On 23/09/2012 16:50, Stefan Behnel wrote: Roy Smith, 23.09.2012 16:02: Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle,�django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. That's a nice comparison, thanks for posting it. One thing that's worth pointing out, however, is that in a real world application, as long as you're using something halfway decent, the speed of the framework is probably not going to matter at all. It's much more likely that database throughput will be the dominating factor. Yes, that makes the comparison (which may or may not be biased towards his own engine) a bit less interesting. Worth keeping this in mind: http://www.codeirony.com/?p=9 Stefan I'd like to say thanks for the link but unfortunately for me, but good news for you (plural), is that I've bust a gut laughing out loud, so I won't :) Oh alright then thanks for the link. -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
Good to know you are in a good humor today. You will be surprised... far not all share your point of view. ;-) Few links for you to stop laughing that loud: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.http/userguide.html#content-cache http://packages.python.org/wheezy.caching/userguide.html#cachedependency Andriy To: python-list@python.org From: breamore...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 18:20:03 +0100 On 23/09/2012 16:50, Stefan Behnel wrote: Roy Smith, 23.09.2012 16:02: Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle,�django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. That's a nice comparison, thanks for posting it. One thing that's worth pointing out, however, is that in a real world application, as long as you're using something halfway decent, the speed of the framework is probably not going to matter at all. It's much more likely that database throughput will be the dominating factor. Yes, that makes the comparison (which may or may not be biased towards his own engine) a bit less interesting. Worth keeping this in mind: http://www.codeirony.com/?p=9 Stefan I'd like to say thanks for the link but unfortunately for me, but good news for you (plural), is that I've bust a gut laughing out loud, so I won't :) Oh alright then thanks for the link. -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
The problem is that easy if you have a complete control over what you are caching. Complete control over cache may look a challenging task however with use of cache dependency you can lower it significantly. Take a look here: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.caching/userguide.html#cachedependency If you have a willing to go even further consider take a look at content caching: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.http/userguide.html#content-cache Serving static page out of your data is not that impossible... there are still exceptions, of cause. Thanks. Andriy To: python-list@python.org From: stefan...@behnel.de Subject: Re: Fastest web framework Date: Sun, Sep 2 :: +0 Andriy Kornatskyy, ..2 :: If we take a look at web application we can split it into at least two parts, one that renders things out and the other one that does data extraction, e.g. from database (this is what you are pointing at). If you made a first call to database you get your list and can easily cache it. The next call IS without impact that database call may cause... but you still keep serving pages out... Well, if it was really that easy, you wouldn't be using a database in the first place but static pages, would you? Stefan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:19 AM, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9 There are other considerations that must be made when running a 'hello world'. -It is a basic string, but no numerical benchmarks. -You've overlooked the fact that different OS's have other processes at work, which need to be looked at -and a function which performed several tasks(a string, and numerical), and then returned the result on seveal operating systems, with non-essential processes turned off -etc -- Best Regards, David Hutto CEO: http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Fastest web framework
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:19 AM, Andriy Kornatskyy andriy.kornats...@live.com wrote: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9 There are other considerations that must be made when running a 'hello world'. -It is a basic string, but no numerical benchmarks. The basic string in return was chosen to benchmark framework code in processing a simple thing and measure the overhead related. In other words how effective the framework is inside. -You've overlooked the fact that different OS's have other processes at work, which need to be looked at -and a function which performed several tasks(a string, and numerical), and then returned the result on seveal operating systems, with non-essential processes turned off There were minimal processes running on both client and server, and even if some have had CPU/network activity it was not so important to the workload both client and server experienced due to test performed. Hope I understood you correctly. Thanks. Andriy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
Hope I understood you correctly. Well, lets break down timing something in a more scientific method approach through questioning. What's your processor speed? What is the constant temperature of the internals of your system? What OS, and version? What other processes are running? There's a scientific method to what you're benchmarking. There have to be constants, and variables to benchmark with. These will of course vary with other methods of approach with the same code. -- Best Regards, David Hutto CEO: http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Fastest web framework
On 2012-09-23 09:19:16 +, Andriy Kornatskyy said: I have run recently a benchmark of a trivial 'hello world' application for various python web frameworks (bottle, django, flask, pyramid, web.py, wheezy.web) hosted in uWSGI/cpython2.7 and gunicorn/pypy1.9... you might find it interesting: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html Comments or suggestions are welcome. Are you on Python Planet? If not, you might want to syndicate your blog there to reach more of the Python web framework crowd. Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy -- Alex Clark · http://pythonpackages.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
