Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Peter Graf]

Thierry Godefroy wrote:

> This said, an adapter is still the best solution. A quick search on
> the web lead me to this:
> http://www.ironwoodelectronics.com/catalog/Content/Templates/PartGrids.cfm?StartRow=21=PL-PLCC44-H-01=PL-PLCC_TABLE
> http://www.ironwoodelectronics.com/catalog/Content/Drawings/PL-PLCC44-H-01Dwg.pdf
> 
> Not sure how mush it costs, but maybe not much more than the
> RTC+battery chip as sold by Farnell... ;-P

I had a quote from Ironwood, too.
Forgot the figure, but it was so painful that I immediately decided it
makes no sense.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Peter Graf]

Thierry Godefroy wrote:

>>> No chance to get a "larger" (i.e. with more gates) CPLD that would fit
>>> the same socket ?... Or perhaps by using a modern and larger (in both
>>> size and number of gates) CPLD that would piggy-back on the old CPLD
>>> socket via a small adpater printed circuit ?...
>>
>> I have considered that, but adaptors which fit into PLCC are
>> prohibitively expensive and hard to get.
> 
> Well, the mod could also involve unsoldering the PLCC (correct me if
> I'm wrong but IRC, it's a through-holes one) and replacing it with
> pinheads, for example, that would plug into the add-on board.

Yes. But that's work with some risk.

>>> A native 800x600 resolution would be a definitive (and probably the
>>> best) solution to the problem, so I think it would be worth investigating
>>> some more its feasability...
>>
>> Still 800x600 would require change of all three operating systems
> 
> These are extremely *minor* and *easy* changes (and SMSQ/E can already
> cope with 800x600 screens)...

Not sure how much sense QDOS Classic would make without the QL style
screens, and how one would easily change it.

>> and several pieces of application software! Moreover, software that directly
>> writes into QL 512x256 would fail, like the beloved QL Chess.
> 
> Frankly, such old pieces of software are probably best ran from emulators
> if they can't cope with variable size/address display... They would also
> fail to run on a QXL in (S)VGA mode or on an Aurora/SGC system too. I won't
> call this an issue and I think this kind of "incompatibility" should not
> limit and forbid us to get a better Q60 display...

Well the Q60 is a retro computer now, and QDOS Classic running old
software is part of the heritage. I'm reluctant to restrict the Q60 to
newer QL software - the whole combination is no longer modern anyway!
Also, some software like PQIV was optimized for the Qx0 aspect ratio and
screen size.

>> .../...
>>> However, another issue with this solution could be the lack of room to
>>> piggy-back a daughter board on the EPROM slots, especially with the 2
>>> ISA slots occupied and a heat-sink+fan on the 68060...
>>
>> It depends. Using SMD components, the board could be about as small as
>> the ROM socket area.
> 
> In this case, I think it's still worth a solution...

Noted.

>> Q68 runs about QXL speed, even without the cache I am working on.
> 
> Not bad at all.
> 
>> Features
>>
>> - Plain 68000 core, 68020 nearly complete
>> - 32 MB SDRAM
>> - PS/2 keyboard and mouse
>> - Two fullsize SD card interfaces
>> - SER
>> - Ethernet
>> - Battery buffered RTC (and yes, the battery is separate!)
> 
> :-D

I just saw that it is actually a capacitor, not a battery! The hardware
design was done so long ago - I even forget the simple things.

>> - Stereo sound
>> - Up to 1024x768 VESA VGA, QL modes in hardware
>> - 8x10 cm board size, fitting existing nice case
>> - Single 5V power supply
>>
>> I demonstrated my Q68 at the "QL is 30" show, where someone took a picture:
>>
>> http://www.qlforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=12=1087=10
>>
>> Meanwhile I replaced the wired components you see on that picture by SMD
>> for machine manufacture. QDOS Classic and Minerva are running, but
>> issues with QL-SD driver and Pointer Environment.
> 
> Sounds and looks good... The small size would make it an ideal "portable"
> QL...

Thanks. Who would best be able to port SMSQ/E?

Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Thierry Godefroy]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 23:22:40 +, derek wrote:

> I would be careful desoldering a PLCC chip,

Actually, the socket, not the chip... ;-)

> the D  Q60 was soldered correctly under the correct soldering
> temperature. 
> 
> I have repaired some Qbranch Q40 boards, which had issues with the
> over heating of the soldering, resulting in detachment of the through
> hole plating.

Yes, I do agree that it won't be for the faint hearted... A "dirty"
but safer (for the PCB) solution, since the PLCC socket will be trashed
anyway, is to use a small cutting pliar to (carefully) destroy the
socket, then to unsolder each pin individually once all the plastic
parts have been removed.

This said, an adapter is still the best solution. A quick search on
the web lead me to this:
http://www.ironwoodelectronics.com/catalog/Content/Templates/PartGrids.cfm?StartRow=21=PL-PLCC44-H-01=PL-PLCC_TABLE
http://www.ironwoodelectronics.com/catalog/Content/Drawings/PL-PLCC44-H-01Dwg.pdf

Not sure how mush it costs, but maybe not much more than the
RTC+battery chip as sold by Farnell... ;-P

Thierry.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[derek]

I would vote for the Q68

Regards

Derek


 Original message 
From: Peter Graf  
Date: 11/03/2016  23:19  (GMT+00:00) 
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com 
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems 

Am 11.03.2016 23:30, schrieb Malcolm Lear:
> Assuming the PLCC has a through hole socket, would it be possible to 
> solder a pcb carrier for a more modern chip on the back of the board 
> using the PLCC pins that protrude through?

Probably yes. But soldering would require to heat up all PLCC pins at
once, or to desolder them first, so the carrier board can fit decently.
Seems a bit risky for the mainboard.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Malcolm]

Yes true, thinking caps on :-)

On 11 March 2016 23:19:18 GMT+00:00, Peter Graf  wrote:
>Am 11.03.2016 23:30, schrieb Malcolm Lear:
>> Assuming the PLCC has a through hole socket, would it be possible to 
>> solder a pcb carrier for a more modern chip on the back of the board 
>> using the PLCC pins that protrude through?
>
>Probably yes. But soldering would require to heat up all PLCC pins at
>once, or to desolder them first, so the carrier board can fit decently.
>Seems a bit risky for the mainboard.
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Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[derek]

Hi,

I would be careful desoldering a PLCC chip, the D  Q60 was soldered correctly 
under the correct soldering temperature. 

I have repaired some Qbranch Q40 boards, which had issues with the over heating 
of the soldering, resulting in detachment of the through hole plating.




Regards

Derek


 Original message 
From: Thierry Godefroy  
Date: 11/03/2016  23:03  (GMT+00:00) 
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com 
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems 

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 23:17:52 +0100, Peter Graf wrote:

> .../...
> > No chance to get a "larger" (i.e. with more gates) CPLD that would fit
> > the same socket ?... Or perhaps by using a modern and larger (in both
> > size and number of gates) CPLD that would piggy-back on the old CPLD
> > socket via a small adpater printed circuit ?...
> 
> I have considered that, but adaptors which fit into PLCC are
> prohibitively expensive and hard to get.

Well, the mod could also involve unsoldering the PLCC (correct me if
I'm wrong but IRC, it's a through-holes one) and replacing it with
pinheads, for example, that would plug into the add-on board.

> > A native 800x600 resolution would be a definitive (and probably the
> > best) solution to the problem, so I think it would be worth investigating
> > some more its feasability...
> 
> Still 800x600 would require change of all three operating systems

These are extremely *minor* and *easy* changes (and SMSQ/E can already
cope with 800x600 screens)...

> and several pieces of application software! Moreover, software that directly
> writes into QL 512x256 would fail, like the beloved QL Chess.

Frankly, such old pieces of software are probably best ran from emulators
if they can't cope with variable size/address display... They would also
fail to run on a QXL in (S)VGA mode or on an Aurora/SGC system too. I won't
call this an issue and I think this kind of "incompatibility" should not
limit and forbid us to get a better Q60 display...

> .../...
> > However, another issue with this solution could be the lack of room to
> > piggy-back a daughter board on the EPROM slots, especially with the 2
> > ISA slots occupied and a heat-sink+fan on the 68060...
> 
> It depends. Using SMD components, the board could be about as small as
> the ROM socket area.

In this case, I think it's still worth a solution...

> Q68 runs about QXL speed, even without the cache I am working on.

Not bad at all.

> Features
>
> - Plain 68000 core, 68020 nearly complete
> - 32 MB SDRAM
> - PS/2 keyboard and mouse
> - Two fullsize SD card interfaces
> - SER
> - Ethernet
> - Battery buffered RTC (and yes, the battery is separate!)

:-D

> - Stereo sound
> - Up to 1024x768 VESA VGA, QL modes in hardware
> - 8x10 cm board size, fitting existing nice case
> - Single 5V power supply
> 
> I demonstrated my Q68 at the "QL is 30" show, where someone took a picture:
> 
> http://www.qlforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=12=1087=10
> 
> Meanwhile I replaced the wired components you see on that picture by SMD
> for machine manufacture. QDOS Classic and Minerva are running, but
> issues with QL-SD driver and Pointer Environment.

Sounds and looks good... The small size would make it an ideal "portable"
QL...

Thierry.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Peter Graf]

Am 11.03.2016 23:30, schrieb Malcolm Lear:
> Assuming the PLCC has a through hole socket, would it be possible to 
> solder a pcb carrier for a more modern chip on the back of the board 
> using the PLCC pins that protrude through?

Probably yes. But soldering would require to heat up all PLCC pins at
once, or to desolder them first, so the carrier board can fit decently.
Seems a bit risky for the mainboard.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Thierry Godefroy]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 23:17:52 +0100, Peter Graf wrote:

> .../...
> > No chance to get a "larger" (i.e. with more gates) CPLD that would fit
> > the same socket ?... Or perhaps by using a modern and larger (in both
> > size and number of gates) CPLD that would piggy-back on the old CPLD
> > socket via a small adpater printed circuit ?...
> 
> I have considered that, but adaptors which fit into PLCC are
> prohibitively expensive and hard to get.

Well, the mod could also involve unsoldering the PLCC (correct me if
I'm wrong but IRC, it's a through-holes one) and replacing it with
pinheads, for example, that would plug into the add-on board.

> > A native 800x600 resolution would be a definitive (and probably the
> > best) solution to the problem, so I think it would be worth investigating
> > some more its feasability...
> 
> Still 800x600 would require change of all three operating systems

These are extremely *minor* and *easy* changes (and SMSQ/E can already
cope with 800x600 screens)...

> and several pieces of application software! Moreover, software that directly
> writes into QL 512x256 would fail, like the beloved QL Chess.

Frankly, such old pieces of software are probably best ran from emulators
if they can't cope with variable size/address display... They would also
fail to run on a QXL in (S)VGA mode or on an Aurora/SGC system too. I won't
call this an issue and I think this kind of "incompatibility" should not
limit and forbid us to get a better Q60 display...

> .../...
> > However, another issue with this solution could be the lack of room to
> > piggy-back a daughter board on the EPROM slots, especially with the 2
> > ISA slots occupied and a heat-sink+fan on the 68060...
> 
> It depends. Using SMD components, the board could be about as small as
> the ROM socket area.

In this case, I think it's still worth a solution...

> Q68 runs about QXL speed, even without the cache I am working on.

Not bad at all.

> Features
>
> - Plain 68000 core, 68020 nearly complete
> - 32 MB SDRAM
> - PS/2 keyboard and mouse
> - Two fullsize SD card interfaces
> - SER
> - Ethernet
> - Battery buffered RTC (and yes, the battery is separate!)

:-D

> - Stereo sound
> - Up to 1024x768 VESA VGA, QL modes in hardware
> - 8x10 cm board size, fitting existing nice case
> - Single 5V power supply
> 
> I demonstrated my Q68 at the "QL is 30" show, where someone took a picture:
> 
> http://www.qlforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=12=1087=10
> 
> Meanwhile I replaced the wired components you see on that picture by SMD
> for machine manufacture. QDOS Classic and Minerva are running, but
> issues with QL-SD driver and Pointer Environment.

Sounds and looks good... The small size would make it an ideal "portable"
QL...

Thierry.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Malcolm Lear]

Assuming the PLCC has a through hole socket, would it be possible to 
solder a pcb carrier for a more modern chip on the back of the board 
using the PLCC pins that protrude through?




On 11/03/2016 22:17, Peter Graf wrote:

Am 11.03.2016 21:48, schrieb Thierry Godefroy:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:16:08 +0100, Peter Graf wrote:


Strange... I'd have expected that the problem was the video memory,
but 800x600 pixels consume less memory than 1024x512 pixels...

Yes it is strange. Has to do withe the fact that neither 800 nor 600 are
powers of two and the CPLDs are manually optimized to the last gate.

No chance to get a "larger" (i.e. with more gates) CPLD that would fit
the same socket ?... Or perhaps by using a modern and larger (in both
size and number of gates) CPLD that would piggy-back on the old CPLD
socket via a small adpater printed circuit ?...

I have considered that, but adaptors which fit into PLCC are
prohibitively expensive and hard to get.


A native 800x600 resolution would be a definitive (and probably the
best) solution to the problem, so I think it would be worth investigating
some more its feasability...

Still 800x600 would require change of all three operating systems and
several pieces of application software! Moreover, software that directly
writes into QL 512x256 would fail, like the beloved QL Chess.


I can display it without scaling here also, but it looks crazy with only
about a quarter of the screen area covered.

True, but better than a blank screen... :-P

Yup.


.../...

Well, depending on how many are "a few", this could be done with
manual wiring...

If I remember correctly, it was 6 wires.

That's definitely not a problem then: I've seen (and did) hardware mods
with more "flying" wires than this...
However, another issue with this solution could be the lack of room to
piggy-back a daughter board on the EPROM slots, especially with the 2
ISA slots occupied and a heat-sink+fan on the 68060...

It depends. Using SMD components, the board could be about as small as
the ROM socket area.


.../...

It would be another machine... Not sure you'd find a "market" for it.

I guess not, but I'm not looking for a market anyway. The fewer people
want it, the less work I have. The two things that still motivate me, is
to have fun and to keep the QL alive.

So the best thing will probably be to concentrate on the Q68. This cute
piece of hardware is in working condition for more than 8 years now,
only struggling with "soft" issues and my notorious lack of time.

Any picture/spec sheet ?

Q68 runs about QXL speed, even without the cache I am working on. Features

- Plain 68000 core, 68020 nearly complete
- 32 MB SDRAM
- PS/2 keyboard and mouse
- Two fullsize SD card interfaces
- SER
- Ethernet
- Battery buffered RTC (and yes, the battery is separate!)
- Stereo sound
- Up to 1024x768 VESA VGA, QL modes in hardware
- 8x10 cm board size, fitting existing nice case
- Single 5V power supply

I demonstrated my Q68 at the "QL is 30" show, where someone took a picture:

http://www.qlforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=12=1087=10

Meanwhile I replaced the wired components you see on that picture by SMD
for machine manufacture. QDOS Classic and Minerva are running, but
issues with QL-SD driver and Pointer Environment.

All the best
Peter

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.



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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Peter Graf]

Am 11.03.2016 21:48, schrieb Thierry Godefroy:
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:16:08 +0100, Peter Graf wrote:
> 
>>> Strange... I'd have expected that the problem was the video memory,
>>> but 800x600 pixels consume less memory than 1024x512 pixels...
>>
>> Yes it is strange. Has to do withe the fact that neither 800 nor 600 are
>> powers of two and the CPLDs are manually optimized to the last gate.
> 
> No chance to get a "larger" (i.e. with more gates) CPLD that would fit
> the same socket ?... Or perhaps by using a modern and larger (in both
> size and number of gates) CPLD that would piggy-back on the old CPLD
> socket via a small adpater printed circuit ?...

I have considered that, but adaptors which fit into PLCC are
prohibitively expensive and hard to get.

> A native 800x600 resolution would be a definitive (and probably the
> best) solution to the problem, so I think it would be worth investigating
> some more its feasability...

Still 800x600 would require change of all three operating systems and
several pieces of application software! Moreover, software that directly
writes into QL 512x256 would fail, like the beloved QL Chess.

>> I can display it without scaling here also, but it looks crazy with only
>> about a quarter of the screen area covered.
> 
> True, but better than a blank screen... :-P

Yup.

>> .../...
>>> Well, depending on how many are "a few", this could be done with
>>> manual wiring...
>>
>> If I remember correctly, it was 6 wires.
> 
> That's definitely not a problem then: I've seen (and did) hardware mods
> with more "flying" wires than this...
> However, another issue with this solution could be the lack of room to
> piggy-back a daughter board on the EPROM slots, especially with the 2
> ISA slots occupied and a heat-sink+fan on the 68060...

It depends. Using SMD components, the board could be about as small as
the ROM socket area.

>> .../...
>>> It would be another machine... Not sure you'd find a "market" for it.
>>
>> I guess not, but I'm not looking for a market anyway. The fewer people
>> want it, the less work I have. The two things that still motivate me, is
>> to have fun and to keep the QL alive.
>>
>> So the best thing will probably be to concentrate on the Q68. This cute
>> piece of hardware is in working condition for more than 8 years now,
>> only struggling with "soft" issues and my notorious lack of time.
> 
> Any picture/spec sheet ?

Q68 runs about QXL speed, even without the cache I am working on. Features

- Plain 68000 core, 68020 nearly complete
- 32 MB SDRAM
- PS/2 keyboard and mouse
- Two fullsize SD card interfaces
- SER
- Ethernet
- Battery buffered RTC (and yes, the battery is separate!)
- Stereo sound
- Up to 1024x768 VESA VGA, QL modes in hardware
- 8x10 cm board size, fitting existing nice case
- Single 5V power supply

I demonstrated my Q68 at the "QL is 30" show, where someone took a picture:

http://www.qlforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=12=1087=10

Meanwhile I replaced the wired components you see on that picture by SMD
for machine manufacture. QDOS Classic and Minerva are running, but
issues with QL-SD driver and Pointer Environment.

All the best
Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Thierry Godefroy]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:37:15 +0100, Marcel Kilgus wrote:

> Thierry Godefroy wrote:
> > That would be nice too: I'm worried that the EPROMs contents will end
> > up ebbing away with time (I saw this happening many times, even on
> > military grade systems), and these EPROMs are so large that they don't
> > fit any of my EPROM programmers (which are limited to 27C512 for the
> > largest EPROM).
> 
> Same here, but 27C010 and 27C256 have basically the same pins, except
> the 2 additional address lines. I built a simple adapter board which
> includes DIP switches to toggle A15 and A16. This way I can program
> the chips in 4 parts.

The Q60 EPROMS are 27C1024 (16 bits data bus): such a trick won't work
for them.

Thierry.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[derek]

Hi,

The Q60 was fitted with 27C1024 eproms.


Regards

Derek


 Original message 
From: Marcel Kilgus  
Date: 11/03/2016  20:37  (GMT+00:00) 
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com 
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems 

Thierry Godefroy wrote:
> That would be nice too: I'm worried that the EPROMs contents will end
> up ebbing away with time (I saw this happening many times, even on
> military grade systems), and these EPROMs are so large that they don't
> fit any of my EPROM programmers (which are limited to 27C512 for the
> largest EPROM).

Same here, but 27C010 and 27C256 have basically the same pins, except
the 2 additional address lines. I built a simple adapter board which
includes DIP switches to toggle A15 and A16. This way I can program
the chips in 4 parts.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Thierry Godefroy]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:16:08 +0100, Peter Graf wrote:

> > Strange... I'd have expected that the problem was the video memory,
> > but 800x600 pixels consume less memory than 1024x512 pixels...
> 
> Yes it is strange. Has to do withe the fact that neither 800 nor 600 are
> powers of two and the CPLDs are manually optimized to the last gate.

No chance to get a "larger" (i.e. with more gates) CPLD that would fit
the same socket ?... Or perhaps by using a modern and larger (in both
size and number of gates) CPLD that would piggy-back on the old CPLD
socket via a small adpater printed circuit ?...
A native 800x600 resolution would be a definitive (and probably the
best) solution to the problem, so I think it would be worth investigating
some more its feasability...

> .../...
> 
> I can display it without scaling here also, but it looks crazy with only
> about a quarter of the screen area covered.

True, but better than a blank screen... :-P

> .../...
> > Well, depending on how many are "a few", this could be done with
> > manual wiring...
> 
> If I remember correctly, it was 6 wires.

That's definitely not a problem then: I've seen (and did) hardware mods
with more "flying" wires than this...
However, another issue with this solution could be the lack of room to
piggy-back a daughter board on the EPROM slots, especially with the 2
ISA slots occupied and a heat-sink+fan on the 68060...

> .../...
> He owns a multisync *flatscreen*. Built into a self designed case.
> Remarkable.

I'm jealous now... :-D

> .../...
> > It would be another machine... Not sure you'd find a "market" for it.
> 
> I guess not, but I'm not looking for a market anyway. The fewer people
> want it, the less work I have. The two things that still motivate me, is
> to have fun and to keep the QL alive.
> 
> So the best thing will probably be to concentrate on the Q68. This cute
> piece of hardware is in working condition for more than 8 years now,
> only struggling with "soft" issues and my notorious lack of time.

Any picture/spec sheet ?

Regards,

Thierry.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Marcel Kilgus]

Thierry Godefroy wrote:
> That would be nice too: I'm worried that the EPROMs contents will end
> up ebbing away with time (I saw this happening many times, even on
> military grade systems), and these EPROMs are so large that they don't
> fit any of my EPROM programmers (which are limited to 27C512 for the
> largest EPROM).

Same here, but 27C010 and 27C256 have basically the same pins, except
the 2 additional address lines. I built a simple adapter board which
includes DIP switches to toggle A15 and A16. This way I can program
the chips in 4 parts.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[derek]

Hi,

I would anything that would  make the Q60 better, looks only to be the display.

I can programme the 27C1024 eproms for Q40 and Q60.


Regards

Derek


 Original message 
From: Peter Graf  
Date: 11/03/2016  20:16  (GMT+00:00) 
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com 
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems 

Hi Thierry,

>> 1) Create a 1024x768 signal with a modified CPLD, generating 
>> 1024x512 plus a black bar at the bottom of the screen. 800x600 does 
>> not fit the PLD.
> 
> Strange... I'd have expected that the problem was the video memory,
> but 800x600 pixels consume less memory than 1024x512 pixels...

Yes it is strange. Has to do withe the fact that neither 800 nor 600 are
powers of two and the CPLDs are manually optimized to the last gate.

>> This solution seems to work with recent flatscreen monitors. For me
>> on a 1920x1080 LG. But 1024x768 does not interpolate nicely, and the
>> black area is annoying.
> 
> Would it be possible to have black areas (lines) both above and below
> the Q60 screen, instead ?... It would look nicer.

I tried that, but did not find a way.

> As for scaling, some monitors can have it disabled; mine, a Hyundai
> W220D, can display any standard EGA/*VGA resolution below its own
> (1680x1050) without scaling and centered on the screen (of course,
> displaying a 320x200 screen without scaling on such a monitor gives a
> tiny picture, but 1024x768 would be quite OK).

I can display it without scaling here also, but it looks crazy with only
about a quarter of the screen area covered.

>> so the only socket where a graphics card could go 
>> (without modifying the mainboard) is the ROM sockets. This would 
>> have the nice side effect to replace the UV EPROMs by Flash.
> 
> That would be nice too: I'm worried that the EPROMs contents will end
> up ebbing away with time (I saw this happening many times, even on
> military grade systems), and these EPROMs are so large that they don't
> fit any of my EPROM programmers (which are limited to 27C512 for the
> largest EPROM).

There are several commercial programming services who do it for a few
Euro. In the worst case, I also can still do the programming.

>> Unfortunately, a few additional address and byte select lines are 
>> required, which are not present on the ROM sockets.
> 
> Well, depending on how many are "a few", this could be done with
> manual wiring...

If I remember correctly, it was 6 wires.

>> 3) Find a converter which can handle the Q60's 1024x512 resolution 
>> and does not misinterpret it as 800x600 like most VGA converters.
> 
> Good luck with that !... Forget about the Ambery and Jamma Boards
> products: bought them and they don't work with the Q60... Neither
> with the Thor XVI in 512x256 resolution (or very badly).

I also had no luck with that yet.

>> 4) Find a flatscreen monitor with true multisync. A fellow QLer here 
>> in Germany owns such a rare monitor and the results are nice. It is 
>> sort of an industrial monitor. Unfortunately my attempts to get 
>> hands on a batch of similar devices failed yet.
> 
> Same here. True multi-sync monitors are History (I'm still so sad and
> annoyed that my NEC-3D died, 8 or so years ago).

He owns a multisync *flatscreen*. Built into a self designed case.
Remarkable.

>> 5) Design a Q60 successor. I had seriously considered this, because 
>> debugging the FPGA-based CPU core inside the Q68 took so long. It 
>> would be a piggyback 68060 board on top of the Q68 hardware. The Q68 
>> board providing video circuitry and peripherals, while the 68060 
>> board holds the CPU, main RAM and glue logic. But this solution 
>> leads away from the original. Considering the Q60 is a vintage 
>> machine worth preserving, this has limited appeal.
> 
> It would be another machine... Not sure you'd find a "market" for it.

I guess not, but I'm not looking for a market anyway. The fewer people
want it, the less work I have. The two things that still motivate me, is
to have fun and to keep the QL alive.

So the best thing will probably be to concentrate on the Q68. This cute
piece of hardware is in working condition for more than 8 years now,
only struggling with "soft" issues and my notorious lack of time.

> I'd personally vote for solution 1 (preferred) or 2. :-)

Solution 1 is MUCH easier than solution 2.

All the best
Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Peter Graf]

Hi Thierry,

>> 1) Create a 1024x768 signal with a modified CPLD, generating 
>> 1024x512 plus a black bar at the bottom of the screen. 800x600 does 
>> not fit the PLD.
> 
> Strange... I'd have expected that the problem was the video memory,
> but 800x600 pixels consume less memory than 1024x512 pixels...

Yes it is strange. Has to do withe the fact that neither 800 nor 600 are
powers of two and the CPLDs are manually optimized to the last gate.

>> This solution seems to work with recent flatscreen monitors. For me
>> on a 1920x1080 LG. But 1024x768 does not interpolate nicely, and the
>> black area is annoying.
> 
> Would it be possible to have black areas (lines) both above and below
> the Q60 screen, instead ?... It would look nicer.

I tried that, but did not find a way.

> As for scaling, some monitors can have it disabled; mine, a Hyundai
> W220D, can display any standard EGA/*VGA resolution below its own
> (1680x1050) without scaling and centered on the screen (of course,
> displaying a 320x200 screen without scaling on such a monitor gives a
> tiny picture, but 1024x768 would be quite OK).

I can display it without scaling here also, but it looks crazy with only
about a quarter of the screen area covered.

>> so the only socket where a graphics card could go 
>> (without modifying the mainboard) is the ROM sockets. This would 
>> have the nice side effect to replace the UV EPROMs by Flash.
> 
> That would be nice too: I'm worried that the EPROMs contents will end
> up ebbing away with time (I saw this happening many times, even on
> military grade systems), and these EPROMs are so large that they don't
> fit any of my EPROM programmers (which are limited to 27C512 for the
> largest EPROM).

There are several commercial programming services who do it for a few
Euro. In the worst case, I also can still do the programming.

>> Unfortunately, a few additional address and byte select lines are 
>> required, which are not present on the ROM sockets.
> 
> Well, depending on how many are "a few", this could be done with
> manual wiring...

If I remember correctly, it was 6 wires.

>> 3) Find a converter which can handle the Q60's 1024x512 resolution 
>> and does not misinterpret it as 800x600 like most VGA converters.
> 
> Good luck with that !... Forget about the Ambery and Jamma Boards
> products: bought them and they don't work with the Q60... Neither
> with the Thor XVI in 512x256 resolution (or very badly).

I also had no luck with that yet.

>> 4) Find a flatscreen monitor with true multisync. A fellow QLer here 
>> in Germany owns such a rare monitor and the results are nice. It is 
>> sort of an industrial monitor. Unfortunately my attempts to get 
>> hands on a batch of similar devices failed yet.
> 
> Same here. True multi-sync monitors are History (I'm still so sad and
> annoyed that my NEC-3D died, 8 or so years ago).

He owns a multisync *flatscreen*. Built into a self designed case.
Remarkable.

>> 5) Design a Q60 successor. I had seriously considered this, because 
>> debugging the FPGA-based CPU core inside the Q68 took so long. It 
>> would be a piggyback 68060 board on top of the Q68 hardware. The Q68 
>> board providing video circuitry and peripherals, while the 68060 
>> board holds the CPU, main RAM and glue logic. But this solution 
>> leads away from the original. Considering the Q60 is a vintage 
>> machine worth preserving, this has limited appeal.
> 
> It would be another machine... Not sure you'd find a "market" for it.

I guess not, but I'm not looking for a market anyway. The fewer people
want it, the less work I have. The two things that still motivate me, is
to have fun and to keep the QL alive.

So the best thing will probably be to concentrate on the Q68. This cute
piece of hardware is in working condition for more than 8 years now,
only struggling with "soft" issues and my notorious lack of time.

> I'd personally vote for solution 1 (preferred) or 2. :-)

Solution 1 is MUCH easier than solution 2.

All the best
Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQE 3.24

[Peter Graf]

Thierry Godefroy wrote:

> [...]
> most common RTC+quartz chips (e.g. the
> DS3231) come at a quarter of this price and don't use that silly
> integrated battery concept that forces you to replace the whole shebang
> every 10 years (or even sooner, depending on how long the RTC+battery
> package was stored by the supplier before you buy it from them: I'd bet
> Farnell don't sell such a RTC everyday...).

The point was that we wanted non-volatile RAM, and the price difference
for the battery on top was relatively small at the time.

I think the design decision was not bad, considering the component is
still available off-the shelf after two decades, and that some bugs
could be fixed using post-mortem-debugging thanks to the NVRAN.

Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 RTC chip (was: Re: Q60 aging problems)

[Massimino Boccardi (Outlook)]

I WANT A Q60 !!;-) 

-Original Message-
From: Ql-Users [mailto:ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com] On Behalf Of
Thierry Godefroy
Sent: venerdì 11 marzo 2016 18:35
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Subject: [Ql-Users] Q60 RTC chip (was: Re: Q60 aging problems)

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 16:50:10 +, Derek Stewart wrote:

> Hi Thierry,
> 
> I can get the RTC Chip for under 10 Euro

It was already pretty obvious to me that Farnell was making big money with
the components they sell, but I didn't know this reached this level... O.O

Count me for one RTC chip then and let me know via a private email when
you'll have some available. :-)

Thierry.
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[Ql-Users] Q60 RTC chip (was: Re: Q60 aging problems)

[Thierry Godefroy]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 16:50:10 +, Derek Stewart wrote:

> Hi Thierry,
> 
> I can get the RTC Chip for under 10 Euro

It was already pretty obvious to me that Farnell was making big money
with the components they sell, but I didn't know this reached this
level... O.O

Count me for one RTC chip then and let me know via a private email
when you'll have some available. :-)

Thierry.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Derek Stewart]

Hi Thierry,

I can get the RTC Chip for under 10 Euro

Regards,

Derek

On 11/03/16 16:29, Thierry Godefroy wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 16:53:56 +0100, pg...@q40.de wrote:


On 11 Mar 2016 at 14:41, Thierry Godefroy wrote:


[...]
This problem was (apparently) due to the lack of poper system date setting
before starting the build process (my Q60 RTC's battery is alas dead, and
given it's a built-in battery inside the RTC package itself, it can't be
replaced);


The Q60 RTC with integrated battery should be available
off-the-shelf for about 12 € from the usual electronic distributors
like Mouser, Digikey, etc.


See my last message: 20€ + VAT (+ postage) from Farnell...


To my surprise, the RTC in my own Q60 has been working for about 18
years.


Mine lasted 12 years or so (it's been dead for alreay a couple of years
and started loosing *minutes* per day when the Q60 was not powered two
years earlier).
Not bad, but still economically silly when compared with a RTC+quartz
chip and independent battery (or supercap: I love those and use them
in all my RTC-fitted electronic projects).


My much bigger concern is the flatscreen monitor issue. I have troubled
my mind about that for years, and if it wasn't for the QL-SD project,
I might have designed a solution. Now that my own CRT monitor faded,
the pain level is growing.


Agreed, this is *the* weak point of the Q40/Q60: without a monitor to
connect it onto, the Qx0 is just a dead part... :-(


Basically, I see five options:

1) Create a 1024x768 signal with a modified CPLD, generating
1024x512 plus a black bar at the bottom of the screen. 800x600 does
not fit the PLD.


Strange... I'd have expected that the problem was the video memory,
but 800x600 pixels consume less memory than 1024x512 pixels...


This solution seems to work with recent flatscreen monitors. For me
on a 1920x1080 LG. But 1024x768 does not interpolate nicely, and the
black area is annoying.


Would it be possible to have black areas (lines) both above and below
the Q60 screen, instead ?... It would look nicer.

As for scaling, some monitors can have it disabled; mine, a Hyundai
W220D, can display any standard EGA/*VGA resolution below its own
(1680x1050) without scaling and centered on the screen (of course,
displaying a 320x200 screen without scaling on such a monitor gives a
tiny picture, but 1024x768 would be quite OK).


2) Design a Q60 graphics card. An ISA card would be slower than the
onboard graphics,


And both slots are already taken: one for the I/O board, the other for
the Ethernet card...


so the only socket where a graphics card could go
(without modifying the mainboard) is the ROM sockets. This would
have the nice side effect to replace the UV EPROMs by Flash.


That would be nice too: I'm worried that the EPROMs contents will end
up ebbing away with time (I saw this happening many times, even on
military grade systems), and these EPROMs are so large that they don't
fit any of my EPROM programmers (which are limited to 27C512 for the
largest EPROM).


Unfortunately, a few additional address and byte select lines are
required, which are not present on the ROM sockets.


Well, depending on how many are "a few", this could be done with
manual wiring...


3) Find a converter which can handle the Q60's 1024x512 resolution
and does not misinterpret it as 800x600 like most VGA converters.


Good luck with that !... Forget about the Ambery and Jamma Boards
products: bought them and they don't work with the Q60... Neither
with the Thor XVI in 512x256 resolution (or very badly).


4) Find a flatscreen monitor with true multisync. A fellow QLer here
in Germany owns such a rare monitor and the results are nice. It is
sort of an industrial monitor. Unfortunately my attempts to get
hands on a batch of similar devices failed yet.


Same here. True multi-sync monitors are History (I'm still so sad and
annoyed that my NEC-3D died, 8 or so years ago).


5) Design a Q60 successor. I had seriously considered this, because
debugging the FPGA-based CPU core inside the Q68 took so long. It
would be a piggyback 68060 board on top of the Q68 hardware. The Q68
board providing video circuitry and peripherals, while the 68060
board holds the CPU, main RAM and glue logic. But this solution
leads away from the original. Considering the Q60 is a vintage
machine worth preserving, this has limited appeal.


It would be another machine... Not sure you'd find a "market" for it.

I'd personally vote for solution 1 (preferred) or 2. :-)

Thierry.
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Re: [Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[Thierry Godefroy]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 16:53:56 +0100, pg...@q40.de wrote:

> On 11 Mar 2016 at 14:41, Thierry Godefroy wrote:
> 
> > [...]
> > This problem was (apparently) due to the lack of poper system date setting
> > before starting the build process (my Q60 RTC's battery is alas dead, and
> > given it's a built-in battery inside the RTC package itself, it can't be
> > replaced);
> 
> The Q60 RTC with integrated battery should be available 
> off-the-shelf for about 12 € from the usual electronic distributors 
> like Mouser, Digikey, etc. 

See my last message: 20€ + VAT (+ postage) from Farnell...

> To my surprise, the RTC in my own Q60 has been working for about 18 
> years.

Mine lasted 12 years or so (it's been dead for alreay a couple of years
and started loosing *minutes* per day when the Q60 was not powered two
years earlier).
Not bad, but still economically silly when compared with a RTC+quartz
chip and independent battery (or supercap: I love those and use them
in all my RTC-fitted electronic projects).

> My much bigger concern is the flatscreen monitor issue. I have troubled
> my mind about that for years, and if it wasn't for the QL-SD project,
> I might have designed a solution. Now that my own CRT monitor faded,
> the pain level is growing.

Agreed, this is *the* weak point of the Q40/Q60: without a monitor to
connect it onto, the Qx0 is just a dead part... :-(

> Basically, I see five options:
> 
> 1) Create a 1024x768 signal with a modified CPLD, generating 
> 1024x512 plus a black bar at the bottom of the screen. 800x600 does 
> not fit the PLD.

Strange... I'd have expected that the problem was the video memory,
but 800x600 pixels consume less memory than 1024x512 pixels...

> This solution seems to work with recent flatscreen monitors. For me
> on a 1920x1080 LG. But 1024x768 does not interpolate nicely, and the
> black area is annoying.

Would it be possible to have black areas (lines) both above and below
the Q60 screen, instead ?... It would look nicer.

As for scaling, some monitors can have it disabled; mine, a Hyundai
W220D, can display any standard EGA/*VGA resolution below its own
(1680x1050) without scaling and centered on the screen (of course,
displaying a 320x200 screen without scaling on such a monitor gives a
tiny picture, but 1024x768 would be quite OK).

> 2) Design a Q60 graphics card. An ISA card would be slower than the 
> onboard graphics,

And both slots are already taken: one for the I/O board, the other for
the Ethernet card...

> so the only socket where a graphics card could go 
> (without modifying the mainboard) is the ROM sockets. This would 
> have the nice side effect to replace the UV EPROMs by Flash.

That would be nice too: I'm worried that the EPROMs contents will end
up ebbing away with time (I saw this happening many times, even on
military grade systems), and these EPROMs are so large that they don't
fit any of my EPROM programmers (which are limited to 27C512 for the
largest EPROM).

> Unfortunately, a few additional address and byte select lines are 
> required, which are not present on the ROM sockets.

Well, depending on how many are "a few", this could be done with
manual wiring...

> 3) Find a converter which can handle the Q60's 1024x512 resolution 
> and does not misinterpret it as 800x600 like most VGA converters.

Good luck with that !... Forget about the Ambery and Jamma Boards
products: bought them and they don't work with the Q60... Neither
with the Thor XVI in 512x256 resolution (or very badly).

> 4) Find a flatscreen monitor with true multisync. A fellow QLer here 
> in Germany owns such a rare monitor and the results are nice. It is 
> sort of an industrial monitor. Unfortunately my attempts to get 
> hands on a batch of similar devices failed yet.

Same here. True multi-sync monitors are History (I'm still so sad and
annoyed that my NEC-3D died, 8 or so years ago).

> 5) Design a Q60 successor. I had seriously considered this, because 
> debugging the FPGA-based CPU core inside the Q68 took so long. It 
> would be a piggyback 68060 board on top of the Q68 hardware. The Q68 
> board providing video circuitry and peripherals, while the 68060 
> board holds the CPU, main RAM and glue logic. But this solution 
> leads away from the original. Considering the Q60 is a vintage 
> machine worth preserving, this has limited appeal.

It would be another machine... Not sure you'd find a "market" for it.

I'd personally vote for solution 1 (preferred) or 2. :-)

Thierry.
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[Ql-Users] Q60 aging problems

[pgraf]

On 11 Mar 2016 at 14:41, Thierry Godefroy wrote:

> [...]
> This problem was (apparently) due to the lack of poper system date setting
> before starting the build process (my Q60 RTC's battery is alas dead, and
> given it's a built-in battery inside the RTC package itself, it can't be
> replaced);

The Q60 RTC with integrated battery should be available 
off-the-shelf for about 12 € from the usual electronic distributors 
like Mouser, Digikey, etc. 

To my surprise, the RTC in my own Q60 has been working for about 18 
years. My much bigger concern is the flatscreen monitor issue. I 
have troubled my mind about that for years, and if it wasn't for the 
QL-SD project, I might have designed a solution. Now that my own CRT 
monitor faded, the pain level is growing.

Basically, I see five options:

1) Create a 1024x768 signal with a modified CPLD, generating 
1024x512 plus a black bar at the bottom of the screen. 800x600 does 
not fit the PLD. This solution seems to work with recent flatscreen 
monitors. For me on a 1920x1080 LG. But 1024x768 does not 
interpolate nicely, and the black area is annoying.

2) Design a Q60 graphics card. An ISA card would be slower than the 
onboard graphics, so the only socket where a graphics card could go 
(without modifying the mainboard) is the ROM sockets. This would 
have the nice side effect to replace the UV EPROMs by Flash. 
Unfortunately, a few additional address and byte select lines are 
required, which are not present on the ROM sockets.

3) Find a converter which can handle the Q60's 1024x512 resolution 
and does not misinterpret it as 800x600 like most VGA converters.

4) Find a flatscreen monitor with true multisync. A fellow QLer here 
in Germany owns such a rare monitor and the results are nice. It is 
sort of an industrial monitor. Unfortunately my attempts to get 
hands on a batch of similar devices failed yet.

5) Design a Q60 successor. I had seriously considered this, because 
debugging the FPGA-based CPU core inside the Q68 took so long. It 
would be a piggyback 68060 board on top of the Q68 hardware. The Q68 
board providing video circuitry and peripherals, while the 68060 
board holds the CPU, main RAM and glue logic. But this solution 
leads away from the original. Considering the Q60 is a vintage 
machine worth preserving, this has limited appeal.

All the best
Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQE 3.24

[Thierry Godefroy]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 14:54:48 +, Derek wrote:

> Hi Thierry,
> 
> The Q60 / Q40 clock chip is a ST M48T02-150PC1 Timekeeper battery. It
> plugs into a 24 pin socket on the Q60 board. It is still available,

Yes, I can see it is still available from Farnel/Element14: at 20 euros
+ VAT, it is not exactly cheap; most common RTC+quartz chips (e.g. the
DS3231) come at a quarter of this price and don't use that silly
integrated battery concept that forces you to replace the whole shebang
every 10 years (or even sooner, depending on how long the RTC+battery
package was stored by the supplier before you buy it from them: I'd bet
Farnell don't sell such a RTC everyday...).
I might get one from Farnell next time I buy some electronic components
from them (it will save the postage fee).
I am also wondering if it would be possible to open the package (probably
by abbrasing its top side with a file) to get access to the battery and
replace it... I might try that with the old chip after replacing it...

> Regards
> Derek

Regards,

Thierry.
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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQE 3.24

[Derek]

Hi Thierry,

The Q60 / Q40 clock chip is a ST M48T02-150PC1 Timekeeper battery. It plugs 
into a 24 pin socket on the Q60 board. 

It is still available, if you need a new one I will source some.

Regards
Derek

-Original Message-
From: "Thierry Godefroy" 
Sent: ‎11/‎03/‎2016 13:41
To: "ql-us...@q-v-d.com" 
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQE 3.24

On Wed, 9 Mar 2016 17:39:25 +0100, I wrote:

> There's something fishy with v3.24: once compiled for the Q40/Q60, when
> trying to configure SMSQ with MenuConfig, the "Initial display mode" value
> does not show and it is impossible to configure it. When booting with the
> resulting SMSQ/E binary, I find mywelf with mode 4 consoles displayed in
> mode 8 colours...

This problem was (apparently) due to the lack of poper system date setting
before starting the build process (my Q60 RTC's battery is alas dead, and
given it's a built-in battery inside the RTC package itself, it can't be
replaced); I retried today (after checking with Wolf that I did have the
proper sources, which was indeed the case), this time after a proper
SDATE, and the resulting binary works fine.

Thierry.
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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQE 3.24

[Thierry Godefroy]

On Wed, 9 Mar 2016 17:39:25 +0100, I wrote:

> There's something fishy with v3.24: once compiled for the Q40/Q60, when
> trying to configure SMSQ with MenuConfig, the "Initial display mode" value
> does not show and it is impossible to configure it. When booting with the
> resulting SMSQ/E binary, I find mywelf with mode 4 consoles displayed in
> mode 8 colours...

This problem was (apparently) due to the lack of poper system date setting
before starting the build process (my Q60 RTC's battery is alas dead, and
given it's a built-in battery inside the RTC package itself, it can't be
replaced); I retried today (after checking with Wolf that I did have the
proper sources, which was indeed the case), this time after a proper
SDATE, and the resulting binary works fine.

Thierry.
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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQmulator v 2.18

[Giorgio Garabello]

>
>
> The black phoenix screenshots look impressive. I haven't had time to test
> it yet.
>
> Anu idea who's behind it?


Of course! , it's a very nice guy , .it's me .:-D

Giorgio
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