Timezone
Hi! I have been alarmed by a posting on linux-kernel that there are several mail applications and MTA's that emit incorrect date/timestamp values. I sent a test message using qmail-inject and found that timestamps are generated using UTC but the correct timezone specification (UTC/GMT/+) is missing. Instead the pseudo suffix - is used which to my limited knowledge means that the system has no knowledge about it's timezone. Because mutt is emitting correct timestamps I do not suspect a misconfiguration of my system. Tom Chemists don't die, they just stop to react. -- T h o m a s Z e h e t b a u e r ( TZ251 ) PGP encrypted mail preferred - KeyID 96FFCB89 mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP signature
Re: Timezone
Alexander Pennace [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 08:12:41PM +0200, Thomas Zehetbauer wrote: I have been alarmed by a posting on linux-kernel that there are several mail applications and MTA's that emit incorrect date/timestamp values. I sent a test message using qmail-inject and found that timestamps are generated using UTC but the correct timezone specification (UTC/GMT/+) is missing. Instead the pseudo suffix - is used which to my limited knowledge means that the system has no knowledge about it's timezone. Because mutt is emitting correct timestamps I do not suspect a misconfiguration of my system. This is a very frequently asked question. http://qmail.faqts.com/ No, that isn't the question he's asking. That's an answer to the question "why doesn't qmail use the local time zone," which isn't the problem. Thomas, the difference between + and - is that the former indicates that the originating machine is physically in the Greenwich time zone, whereas the latter indicates that the machine may be in any actual time zone but the time was generated in UTC for some reason. - is therefore the correct time zone for what qmail is doing; + would incorrectly imply that all qmail servers were running on machines in England. For more details, see: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-drums-msg-fmt-08.txt | The form "+" SHOULD be used to indicate a time zone at Universal | Time. Though "-" also indicates Universal Time, it is used to | indicate that the time was generated on a system that may be in a local | time zone other than Universal Time and therefore indicates that the | date-time contains no information about the local time zone. -- Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Re: [Fwd: Re: Timezone]
On Wed, Aug 30, 2000 at 05:05:12PM +, Stephen F. Bosch wrote: I'm curious -- how does my mail appear in your mailbox? Does it show UTC or local time of arrival? I am running Mutt (with qmail, of course) and my locale is Pacific Daylight Time. My system clocks are synchronized with NTP. The headers on this e-mail appeared as follows: Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from earth by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.3.0) for benfell@localhost (single-drop); Wed, 30 Aug 2000 14:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 714 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2000 21:06:13 - Received: from muncher.math.uic.edu (131.193.178.181) by area66-1.dsl.speakeasy.net with SMTP; 30 Aug 2000 21:06:13 - Received: (qmail 9025 invoked by uid 1002); 30 Aug 2000 17:06:16 - Mailing-List: contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk Delivered-To: mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: (qmail 32373 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2000 17:06:15 - Received: from dsl-cap-209-115-249-138-cgy.nucleus.com (HELO dsl-ch-l15-c80-n249-i138-cgy.nucleus.com) (209.115.249.138) by muncher.math.uic.edu with SMTP; 30 Aug 2000 17:06:15 - Received: (qmail 21192 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2000 11:05:37 -0600 Received: from dsl-mr-207-34-113-i28-cgy.nucleus.com (HELO vodacomm.ca) (207.34.113.28) by dsl-cap-209-115-249-138-cgy.nucleus.com with SMTP; 30 Aug 2000 11:05:37 -0600 Sender: sfbosch@earth Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 17:05:12 + From: "Stephen F. Bosch" [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.17-0.16mdk i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Timezone] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- David Benfell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 59438240 [e-mail first for access] --- There are no physicists in the hottest parts of hell, because the existence of a "hottest part" implies a temperature difference, and any marginally competent physicist would immediately use this to run a heat engine and make some other part of hell comfortably cool. This is obviously impossible. -- Richard Davisson [from fortune] PGP signature
Re: [Fwd: Re: Timezone]
Eric Cox wrote: Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: (qmail 8713 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2000 03:20:52 - Received: from muncher.math.uic.edu (131.193.178.181)by 192.dsl7839.rcsis.com with SMTP; 30 Aug 2000 03:20:52 - Received: (qmail 31869 invoked by uid 1002); 30 Aug 2000 03:19:49 - Mailing-List: contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk Delivered-To: mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: (qmail 24239 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2000 03:19:48 - Received: from dsl-cap-209-115-249-138-cgy.nucleus.com (HELO dsl-ch-l15-c80-n249-i138-cgy.nucleus.com) (209.115.249.138)by muncher.math.uic.edu with SMTP; 30 Aug 2000 03:19:48 - Received: (qmail 19854 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2000 21:19:18 -0600 Received: from dsl-cap-209-115-249-136-cgy.nucleus.com (HELO vodacomm.ca) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])by dsl-cap-209-115-249-138-cgy.nucleus.com with SMTP; 29 Aug 2000 21:19:18 -0600 Sender: sfbosch Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:14:15 -0600 From: "Stephen F. Bosch" [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: Qmail Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Timezone References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-Mozilla-Status2: X-UIDL: 967605652.8716.dream Are you sure? I've quoted the all the headers above to show you my Netscape clearly does not do it. Here are some dates from other messages, all in Netscape: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:34:04 GMT Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:51:22 +0200 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:04:11 -0400 (EDT) If Netscape is translating them, should they not all be a common timezone? Okay, for outgoing messages, perhaps... right... we're getting confused over what is where, etc... The point is that Outlook incorrectly translates the header information and shows the UTC time for mail that comes through a qmail server, whereas Netscape properly translates and shows the local time of arrival. I'm curious -- how does my mail appear in your mailbox? Does it show UTC or local time of arrival? -Stephen-
Re: [Fwd: Re: Timezone]
"Stephen F. Bosch" wrote: . . . Okay, for outgoing messages, perhaps... right... we're getting confused over what is where, etc... The point is that Outlook incorrectly translates the header information and shows the UTC time for mail that comes through a qmail server, whereas Netscape properly translates and shows the local time of arrival. I'm curious -- how does my mail appear in your mailbox? Does it show UTC or local time of arrival? -Stephen- As far as I know Netscape show the localtime in the message list but doesn't change anything in the header. But, in some cases it doesn't show it correctly. Daniel Augusto Fernandes (DAF tm) [EMAIL PROTECTED] GCSNethttp://www.gcsnet.com.br/ Se você não encontra o sentido das coisas é porque este não se encontra, se cria. Antoine Saint-Exupéry
Re: Timezone
Stephen F. Bosch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes on 29 August 2000 at 22:00:15 + Daniel Augusto Fernandes wrote: qmail uses UTC for the timezone in headers, as it should. Set the timezone in your MUA/mail reader, and it should automatically translate timestamps to local time, if it's intelligent enough. Yes, I agree with the MUA being responsible for doing the translation. But some doesn't do that. Like Mickeysoft's Outlook Excess, for example. Outlook is not standards compliant. What you're essentially asking for a way to break qmail so that it will work with Microsoft's mediocre product. =) In my years of working with computers, networks, and email, I don't think I've *ever* seen an MUA that performs this theoretically desirable function. I'm sure people can cite several, but it doesn't appear to be at all common. I'm all for it; I think MUA's *should* do that. But in practice, I don't think they mostly parse the headers at all, they just filter which to display and which to not display, and display the actual text of any chosen. -- Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ Minicon: http://www.mnstf.org/minicon Bookworms: http://ouroboros.demesne.com/ SF: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b David Dyer-Bennet / Welcome to the future! / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Timezone
Quoted from David Dyer-Bennet: [Re: timezone translation in Date fields] In my years of working with computers, networks, and email, I don't think I've *ever* seen an MUA that performs this theoretically desirable function. Well, I can name one: mutt. You can use %D, or %[...] (where ... is replaced by a strftime(3)-format string). Not that I know how to make this affect the actual display of the header when reading a message, but you can definitely tweak the index this way. I sometimes wish mutt has a conversion for ``adjust to UTC''. Oh well. ---Chris K. -- Chris, the Young One |_ but what's a dropped message between friends? Auckland, New Zealand |_ this is UDP, not TCP after all ;) ---John H. http://cloud9.hedgee.com/ |_ Robinson, IV
Re: Timezone
David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In my years of working with computers, networks, and email, I don't think I've *ever* seen an MUA that performs this theoretically desirable function. Gnus does, of course. -- Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Timezone
Could anyone help me on how to set the timezone for qmail to run? Daniel Augusto Fernandes (DAF tm) [EMAIL PROTECTED] GCSNethttp://www.gcsnet.com.br/ Se você não encontra o sentido das coisas é porque este não se encontra, se cria. Antoine Saint-Exupéry
Re: Timezone
Daniel Augusto Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could anyone help me on how to set the timezone for qmail to run? qmail uses UTC for the timezone in headers, as it should. Set the timezone in your MUA/mail reader, and it should automatically translate timestamps to local time, if it's intelligent enough. qmail's behaviour is by design; it's much easier to track a message's progress through the network if all the timestamps are in a single timezone -- and UTC is one of the few acceptable choices for a 'universal' timestamp. Charles -- -- Charles Cazabon [EMAIL PROTECTED] QCC Communications Corporation Saskatoon, SK My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer. --
Re: Timezone
Charles Cazabon wrote: Daniel Augusto Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could anyone help me on how to set the timezone for qmail to run? qmail uses UTC for the timezone in headers, as it should. Set the timezone in your MUA/mail reader, and it should automatically translate timestamps to local time, if it's intelligent enough. qmail's behaviour is by design; it's much easier to track a message's progress through the network if all the timestamps are in a single timezone -- and UTC is one of the few acceptable choices for a 'universal' timestamp. Yes, I agree with the MUA being responsible for doing the translation. But some doesn't do that. I've heard about setting a TZ enviroment variable to do this for qmail. Is that so? Daniel Augusto Fernandes (DAF tm) [EMAIL PROTECTED] GCSNethttp://www.gcsnet.com.br/ Se você não encontra o sentido das coisas é porque este não se encontra, se cria. Antoine Saint-Exupéry
Re: Timezone
On Tue, Aug 29, 2000 at 06:12:32PM -0200, Daniel Augusto Fernandes wrote: Charles Cazabon wrote: Daniel Augusto Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could anyone help me on how to set the timezone for qmail to run? qmail uses UTC for the timezone in headers, as it should. Set the timezone in your MUA/mail reader, and it should automatically translate timestamps to local time, if it's intelligent enough. qmail's behaviour is by design; it's much easier to track a message's progress through the network if all the timestamps are in a single timezone -- and UTC is one of the few acceptable choices for a 'universal' timestamp. Yes, I agree with the MUA being responsible for doing the translation. But some doesn't do that. I've heard about setting a TZ enviroment variable to do this for qmail. Is that so? You can achieve that if you apply this patch to qmail: ftp://ftp.nlc.net.au/pub/unix/mail/qmail/qmail-date-localtime.patch or if the australian line is slow: http://x42.com/qmail/patches/qmail-date-localtime.patch /magnus -- http://x42.com/
Re: Timezone
Chris Garrigues wrote: From: Daniel Augusto Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:12:32 -0200 Yes, I agree with the MUA being responsible for doing the translation. But some doesn't do that. I've heard about setting a TZ enviroment variable to do this for qmail. Is that so? No. By your repeated question, I don't think you really understand why qmail uses UTC by design. Date: headers should be created by the MUA and should be in the local time zone. The headers which are created by the MTA (in this case qmail) should be in UTC so that problems can be diagnosed without great pain. Is the problem that your MUA isn't creating the Date header properly or do you really want to make it significantly harder to debug delivery problems by hacking the Received headers? If I wanted to hack the Received headers I would have had changed qmail (or any other MTA) to change anything in the headers! And, it would mean nothing, as I would not have any access to other servers in the net! I just want to make qmail work with my localtime. Will this make qmail-inject send messages with localtime 'Date:' header? Thanks anyway (I didn't want to hurt anyone ) Daniel Augusto Fernandes (DAF tm) [EMAIL PROTECTED] GCSNethttp://www.gcsnet.com.br/ Se você não encontra o sentido das coisas é porque este não se encontra, se cria. Antoine Saint-Exupéry
Re: Timezone
On 29-Aug-2000, Daniel Augusto Fernandes wrote: If I wanted to hack the Received headers I would have had changed qmail (or any other MTA) to change anything in the headers! And, it would mean nothing, as I would not have any access to other servers in the net! Right. Received header is always generated by the MTA, in this case qmail. I just want to make qmail work with my localtime. Will this make qmail-inject send messages with localtime 'Date:' header? To reiterate: Date header should be generated by the MUA. You can use datemail instead of sendmail or qmail-inject as the MUA so the Date header is generated using your local time. Ronny
Re: Timezone
On Tue, 29 Aug 2000, Daniel Augusto Fernandes wrote: I just want to make qmail work with my localtime. Will this make qmail-inject send messages with localtime 'Date:' header? Now that you've told us exactly what you want to do, we can answer your question to your satisfaction. qmail-inject will insert its own Date: header in UTC format if, and only if, there is no existing Date: header in its input. You cannot tell qmail-inject to use any other timezone, no matter how hard you push $TZ. If you want to use localtime, then use /var/qmail/bin/datemail. It has a similar interface to /var/qmail/bin/sendmail, and it will create a Date: header using the local timezone if, and only if, there is no existing Date: header in its input. Received: headers generated by qmail programs will always be in UTC unless you patch the source. -- Regards Peter -- Peter Samuel[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.e-smith.org (development)http://www.e-smith.com (corporate) Phone: +1 613 368 4398 Fax: +1 613 564 7739 e-smith, inc. 1500-150 Metcalfe St, Ottawa, ON K2P 1P1 Canada "If you kill all your unhappy customers, you'll only have happy ones left"
Re: Timezone
Daniel Augusto Fernandes wrote: qmail uses UTC for the timezone in headers, as it should. Set the timezone in your MUA/mail reader, and it should automatically translate timestamps to local time, if it's intelligent enough. Yes, I agree with the MUA being responsible for doing the translation. But some doesn't do that. Like Mickeysoft's Outlook Excess, for example. Outlook is not standards compliant. What you're essentially asking for a way to break qmail so that it will work with Microsoft's mediocre product. =) Cheers! -Stephen-
Re: Timezone
"Stephen F. Bosch" wrote: . . . Like Mickeysoft's Outlook Excess, for example. Outlook is not standards compliant. What you're essentially asking for a way to break qmail so that it will work with Microsoft's mediocre product. =) :o) I didn't want to break anything... =) ps: Netscape Messenger also have its problems with the Date: header... Daniel Augusto Fernandes (DAF tm) [EMAIL PROTECTED] GCSNethttp://www.gcsnet.com.br/ Se você não encontra o sentido das coisas é porque este não se encontra, se cria. Antoine Saint-Exupéry
Re: Timezone
Magnus Bodin wrote: You can achieve that if you apply this patch to qmail: ftp://ftp.nlc.net.au/pub/unix/mail/qmail/qmail-date-localtime.patch or if the australian line is slow: http://x42.com/qmail/patches/qmail-date-localtime.patch I didn't try it yet, but Thanks Daniel Augusto Fernandes (DAF tm) [EMAIL PROTECTED] GCSNethttp://www.gcsnet.com.br/ Se você não encontra o sentido das coisas é porque este não se encontra, se cria. Antoine Saint-Exupéry
Re: Timezone
"Stephen F. Bosch" wrote: Daniel Augusto Fernandes wrote: qmail uses UTC for the timezone in headers, as it should. Set the timezone in your MUA/mail reader, and it should automatically translate timestamps to local time, if it's intelligent enough. Yes, I agree with the MUA being responsible for doing the translation. But some doesn't do that. Like Mickeysoft's Outlook Excess, for example. Outlook is not standards compliant. What you're essentially asking for a way to break qmail so that it will work with Microsoft's mediocre product. =) You mean the world doesn't revolve around M$crosoft? :) S! don't tell Mr. Gates he might get mad. LOL Remember, they were late coming to the internet market and have been playing catch up ever since. -- Dale Miracle System Administrator Teoi Virtual Web Hosting
Re: Timezone
"Stephen F. Bosch" wrote: Daniel Augusto Fernandes wrote: Yes, I agree with the MUA being responsible for doing the translation. But some doesn't do that. Like Mickeysoft's Outlook Excess, for example. Outlook is not standards compliant. What you're essentially asking for a way to break qmail so that it will work with Microsoft's mediocre product. =) Actually neither Netscape 4.72 nor Pine 4.10 do it either. Anyone know of an MUA that _does_ translate the Date: header? Eric
Re: Timezone
Eric Cox wrote: "Stephen F. Bosch" wrote: Daniel Augusto Fernandes wrote: Yes, I agree with the MUA being responsible for doing the translation. But some doesn't do that. Like Mickeysoft's Outlook Excess, for example. Outlook is not standards compliant. What you're essentially asking for a way to break qmail so that it will work with Microsoft's mediocre product. =) Actually neither Netscape 4.72 nor Pine 4.10 do it either. Then why does my version of 4.72 do it correctly? -Stephen-
[Fwd: Re: Timezone]
Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: (qmail 8713 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2000 03:20:52 - Received: from muncher.math.uic.edu (131.193.178.181)by 192.dsl7839.rcsis.com with SMTP; 30 Aug 2000 03:20:52 - Received: (qmail 31869 invoked by uid 1002); 30 Aug 2000 03:19:49 - Mailing-List: contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk Delivered-To: mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: (qmail 24239 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2000 03:19:48 - Received: from dsl-cap-209-115-249-138-cgy.nucleus.com (HELO dsl-ch-l15-c80-n249-i138-cgy.nucleus.com) (209.115.249.138)by muncher.math.uic.edu with SMTP; 30 Aug 2000 03:19:48 - Received: (qmail 19854 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2000 21:19:18 -0600 Received: from dsl-cap-209-115-249-136-cgy.nucleus.com (HELO vodacomm.ca) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])by dsl-cap-209-115-249-138-cgy.nucleus.com with SMTP; 29 Aug 2000 21:19:18 -0600 Sender: sfbosch Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:14:15 -0600 From: "Stephen F. Bosch" [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: Qmail Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Timezone References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-Mozilla-Status2: X-UIDL: 967605652.8716.dream Eric Cox wrote: "Stephen F. Bosch" wrote: Daniel Augusto Fernandes wrote: Yes, I agree with the MUA being responsible for doing the translation. But some doesn't do that. Like Mickeysoft's Outlook Excess, for example. Outlook is not standards compliant. What you're essentially asking for a way to break qmail so that it will work with Microsoft's mediocre product. =) Actually neither Netscape 4.72 nor Pine 4.10 do it either. Then why does my version of 4.72 do it correctly? Are you sure? I've quoted the all the headers above to show you my Netscape clearly does not do it. Here are some dates from other messages, all in Netscape: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:34:04 GMT Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:51:22 +0200 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:04:11 -0400 (EDT) If Netscape is translating them, should they not all be a common timezone? Eric
Re: Timezone
On Tue, Aug 29, 2000 at 08:01:36PM -0700, Eric Cox wrote: # "Stephen F. Bosch" wrote: # # Daniel Augusto Fernandes wrote: # # Yes, I agree with the MUA being responsible for doing the translation. # But some doesn't do that. # # Like Mickeysoft's Outlook Excess, for example. Outlook is not standards # compliant. # What you're essentially asking for a way to break qmail so that it will # work with Microsoft's mediocre product. =) # # Actually neither Netscape 4.72 nor Pine 4.10 do it either. # # Anyone know of an MUA that _does_ translate the Date: header? Mutt, Eudora -- Justin Bell
TimeZone patch
Hi List, Sorry but I became a little lost here in following the gentle roasting and the only reason I found was one of those if you don't already know why not - don't do it variety which, since I do *not* already know causes me to raise the question. Is there any valid technical reason for *not* applying John Saunder's patch to date822fmt.c which causes it to emit dates in the local timezone which I found on www.qmail.org? TIA -=dave=-
Re: TimeZone patch
Dave Stites [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: html Hi List,br br Hi. brr It's cold here, too. Sorry but I became a little lost here in following the gentle roasting and the only quot;reasonquot; I found was one of those quot;if you don't already know why not - don't do itquot; variety which, since I do *not* quot;already knowquot; causes me to raise the question.br br Is there any valid technical reason for *not* applying John Saunder's font color="#FF"upatch to date822fmt.c/font/u which causes it to emit dates in the local timezone which I found on a href="http://www.qmail.org/" eudora="autourl"www./aqmaila href="http://www.qmail.org/" eudora="autourl".org/a?br 1. Since Received timestamps are generated by sites all over the world, one can either log the local time, which is convenient for people who happen to be in that time zone, but inconvenient for everyone else--or one can log a "universal" time, which is mildly inconvenient for most people, but which makes it much easier to track delivery times in received header fields of messages that traverse timezones. 2. Dan went to great lengths to avoid *ever* linking against the standard C runtime library. Converting to localtime requires doing so. Dan had good (security, obesity) reasons for avoiding libc. 3. This has nothing to do with timezones: HTML mail is annoying. -Dave
Re: TimeZone patch
For the List, My apologies for inadvertently injecting HTML into this list. That will *not* happen again For Dave Sill, Thank you for your response. It is now perfectly clear that for me to install said patch would be very inadvisable. Also, THANK YOU, for "Life with qmail" which recently was invaluable to me! Warm Regards, -=dave=-
Timezone
Hi. We are using qmail on Sun Solaris 7. When we are sending mails, the header of them is looking like this: -- Received: from a.b.c (mailsrvr [192.168.230.23]) by email.tiscon.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA03719 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:58:04 +0100 Received: (qmail 11852 invoked from network); 20 Jan 2000 11:55:06 - Received: from b.b.c (HELO websrvr) (192.168.230.22) by a.b.c with SMTP; 20 Jan 2000 11:55:06 - Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:57:25 +0100 (GMT+01:00) -- The "Date" field is set correctly, our email server "email.tiscon.de" is setting the time correctly (12:58:04 +0100), but qmail is setting the time to "11:55:06 -". How can we instruct qmail to insert the correct time and timezone? BTW: We are in Europe/Berlin, so +0100 is correct. Martin
Re: Timezone
On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Martin Renner wrote: [...] qmail is setting the time to "11:55:06 -". Yes, qmail always uses UTC. Mads
Re: Timezone
On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 02:54:00PM +0100, Mads E Eilertsen wrote: On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Martin Renner wrote: [...] qmail is setting the time to "11:55:06 -". Yes, qmail always uses UTC. But there's a patch available that will use your local timezone instead. Search on one the www.qmail.org mirrors for "timezone".
Re: Timezone
Walt Mankowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 02:54:00PM +0100, Mads E Eilertsen wrote: On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Martin Renner wrote: [...] qmail is setting the time to "11:55:06 -". Yes, qmail always uses UTC. But there's a patch available that will use your local timezone instead. Search on one the www.qmail.org mirrors for "timezone". But there are good reasons qmail works the way it does. If you don't understand them, you shouldn't apply the patch. -Dave
Re: Timezone
On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Walt Mankowski wrote: But there's a patch available that will use your local timezone instead. [...] Sure, but why tamper with qmail's approach? When tracking down delivery problems it's easier for humans and programs to read the Received:-lines when all time stamps are in the same timezone rather than 10 different ones. To make it even harder some systems add strange symbolic names like EST, which don't tell me much. E might indicate east, and T probably means Time. East of me is Sweden, so EST must be Eastern Swedish Time. Dan made life easier. IMHO applying such patches makes it harder again. If you like to display the time stamps in a local timezone, ask your MUA author to make the MUA do so. Or take a look at http://cr.yp.to/mess822.html Mads
RE: Timezone
But for Us European people EST stands for Eastern Summer Time and what is UTC and where is the time zone for that ? Regards Paul T -Original Message- From: Mads E Eilertsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Timezone On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Walt Mankowski wrote: But there's a patch available that will use your local timezone instead. [...] Sure, but why tamper with qmail's approach? When tracking down delivery problems it's easier for humans and programs to read the Received:-lines when all time stamps are in the same timezone rather than 10 different ones. To make it even harder some systems add strange symbolic names like EST, which don't tell me much. E might indicate east, and T probably means Time. East of me is Sweden, so EST must be Eastern Swedish Time. Dan made life easier. IMHO applying such patches makes it harder again. If you like to display the time stamps in a local timezone, ask your MUA author to make the MUA do so. Or take a look at http://cr.yp.to/mess822.html Mads
RE: Timezone
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Paul Trippett wrote: But for Us European people EST stands for Eastern Summer Time and what is UTC and where is the time zone for that ? OIC, JIC, I use UTP at work at UPC which is in CET, ETC. I thought UTC was GMT... is that not correct? Scott -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBOIcwVB4PLs9vCOqdAQFUYgP+PZSGYFxaj8Sz07d9u1thqZe633+xnCQ+ 29kYOBv7bSBhudQZxdvGL3gztukrRC5MzuvDA4sr2eXefxMG7Eqjs4YDdX8SpFNJ NNTtV1AlNguEu5F9sxZi4ZQ91pFn/9vX8NjIb2HGRJsSLnCnCOdIITgHuQwFTgfC 2+K2g7jQYXc= =gBFf -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Timezone
On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 08:57:08AM -0700, Scott D. Yelich wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Paul Trippett wrote: But for Us European people EST stands for Eastern Summer Time and what is UTC and where is the time zone for that ? OIC, JIC, I use UTP at work at UPC which is in CET, ETC. I thought UTC was GMT... is that not correct? I walk around http://physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Time/world.html might be instructive. Regards.
RE: Timezone
"Scott D. Yelich" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I thought UTC was GMT... is that not correct?
Ah, two of my favorite peeves...and so concisely combined.
First, UTC is not GMT. There're close, but not the same. See various
net resources, if you're piqued.
Second, the phrase "is that not correct", and how to properly answer
it. If it were a simple assertion followed by a simple question, e.g.:
UTC is GMT, right?
Since the assertion is false, the answer is clearly negative ("no" or
"wrong"). Throwing the "not" before the assertion reverses it:
UTC is GMT, not right?
The assertion (UTC == GMT) is false, so the the answer to the question
is affirmative ("yes" or "right").
But most people seem to use the "not" as syntactic sugar, not
intending it to reverse the sense of the question, so in response to:
I thought UTC was GMT... is that not correct?
They want a negative if UTC GMT. E.g., a typical exchange:
Bill: UTC is GMT, is it not?
Joe: No, they're different.
Joe can't just say "No", because it's unclear if he's interpreting the
question grammatically, or anticipating that Bill really doesn't mean
what he's saying.
So my point is, unless you like reading silly analyses of grammatical
constructs in the qmail list, you should be careful to express
yourself unambiguously.
-Dave
RE: Timezone
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Dave Sill wrote: So my point is, unless you like reading silly analyses of grammatical constructs in the qmail list, you should be careful to express yourself unambiguously. -Dave Oh, puhleeze do teach me how to be a pedantic asshole! Do you get my meanin' ? Scott ps: I book marked the url on writing good code. I want to see how much if the rules qmail breaks. pps: example, good software should do the right thing if left to its own and should not do stupid things unless severly cornered. Take shi!tty windows. If you type an IP into the network box, and you type "831" .. a popup window instantly pops up and states that this is not a valid input. Of course, why doesn' the same system trigger on the second digit input and if its not 0, 1 or 2, simply procced to the next octet? To me, that's an example of shitty software not doing the right thing. ppps: I won't even go near all the blasted windows popups that steal your focus. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBOIdJfx4PLs9vCOqdAQHz8wP/YlsVA+5Fg3U+yuBp1Y55WE4hoI66kv2k thB5KKx2H4hEsDE5PMAPJaL5HtNwqpPjR4wiBIA5WQE+7r2wUo2sTD00oRqgbgll psiA8fc5Rdekx7a6rvDQEx0Psmxp1nkFBlvuc+n9xBcMRFiLb4wT4ViWBMQeK6Ek DGZUwjxF6vc= =u3tM -END PGP SIGNATURE-
RE: Timezone
"Scott D. Yelich" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, puhleeze do teach me how to be a pedantic asshole! Looks like I'm halfway there already. ps: I book marked the url on writing good code. I want to see how much if the rules qmail breaks. The one Craig posted? It's pretty high-level; not like a checklist you can run through to declare code either "good" or "bad". qmail's record over its four year history is impressive. Compare the handful of actual bugs to the scores found in other MTA's like sendmail and even Postfix over the same time period. The code may get demerits for lack of documention or whatnot, but in fact, it's *extremely* solid code. pps: example, good software should do the right thing if left to its own and should not do stupid things unless severly cornered. "right", "stupid"...hardly objective criteria. Both are determined by whomever is doing the evaluation. Take shi!tty windows. If you type an IP into the network box, and you type "831" .. a popup window instantly pops up and states that this is not a valid input. Of course, why doesn' the same system trigger on the second digit input and if its not 0, 1 or 2, simply procced to the next octet? To me, that's an example of shitty software not doing the right thing. I don't follow the "second digit should be 0/1/2" bit, but I catch your drift. I think you're saying that if I enter a number 255, the pop-up should assume I skipped a ".". But maybe I just fumble fingered and hit two keys at once. If the pop-up rearranges things into a valid (but wrong) IP address--and I don't notice that--I'm going to be plenty annoyed. ppps: I won't even go near all the blasted windows popups that steal your focus. OK. -Dave
Re: Timezone
Mark Delany writes: I walk around http://physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Time/world.html might be instructive. Instructive, yes, but it says nothing about TAI. TAI is simply a counting of seconds, without UTC being taken into account. TAI + leap seconds == UTC. Unix machines claim to run on UTC but really operate on TAI. -- -russ nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://russnelson.com Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | "Ask not what your country 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | can force other people to Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | do for you..." -Perry M.
Re: Timezone
Heh, great message about expressing yourself unambiguously. Now if only you could teach us (well, me ;-) how to do so *tersely*. ;-) tq vm, (burley)
Re: Timezone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Heh, great message about expressing yourself unambiguously. Now if only you could teach us (well, me ;-) how to do so *tersely*. ;-) Easy. -- -russ nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://russnelson.com Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | "Ask not what your country 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | can force other people to Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | do for you..." -Perry M.
Re: Timezone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heh, great message about expressing yourself unambiguously. Now if only you could teach us (well, me ;-) how to do so *tersely*. ;-) Simplify, but don't oversimplify. -Dave
Re: Timezone
On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 01:32:53PM -0500, Ian Lance Taylor wrote: From: Russell Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:22:56 -0500 (EST) Mark Delany writes: I walk around http://physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Time/world.html might be instructive. Instructive, yes, but it says nothing about TAI. TAI is simply a counting of seconds, without UTC being taken into account. TAI + leap seconds == UTC. Unix machines claim to run on UTC but really operate on TAI. This is one of those statement which punches my personal pedant button. I believe that machines which follow POSIX run on a mixture. I wouldn't want to run any 100% POSIX-compliant OS. Why? POSIX says 2000 is not a leap year :) Greetz, Peter. -- Peter van Dijk - student/sysadmin/ircoper/madly in love/pretending coder | | 'C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; | C++ makes it harder, but when you do it blows your whole leg off.' | Bjarne Stroustrup, Inventor of C++
Re: Timezone
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:42:49 +0100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why? POSIX says 2000 is not a leap year :) What makes you say that? POSIX is incorrect because it says that 2100 is a leap year (just in case you were worried that there wouldn't be a Y2.1K problem). POSIX does not say that 2000 is not a leap year. Here is the conversion rule that POSIX specifies: time_t == tm_sec + tm_min * 60 + tm_hour * 3600 + tm_yday * 86400 + (tm_year - 70) * 31536000 + ((tm_year - 69) / 4) * 86400 Ian
Re: Timezone
Ian Lance Taylor writes: From: Russell Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:22:56 -0500 (EST) Mark Delany writes: I walk around http://physics.nist.gov/GenInt/Time/world.html might be instructive. Instructive, yes, but it says nothing about TAI. TAI is simply a counting of seconds, without UTC being taken into account. TAI + leap seconds == UTC. Unix machines claim to run on UTC but really operate on TAI. This is one of those statement which punches my personal pedant button. I believe that machines which follow POSIX run on a mixture. Me too. Didn't I just say that? Perhaps the most accurate way to say it is that the kernel naturally runs TAI, but it's sense of time it coerced into UTC by people or other software external to the kernel. -- -russ nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://russnelson.com Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | "Ask not what your country 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | can force other people to Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | do for you..." -Perry M.
Re: Timezone
On Thu, Jan 20, 2000 at 01:48:35PM -0500, Ian Lance Taylor wrote: Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:42:49 +0100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why? POSIX says 2000 is not a leap year :) What makes you say that? I read something along those lines somewhere.. POSIX is incorrect because it says that 2100 is a leap year (just in case you were worried that there wouldn't be a Y2.1K problem). POSIX does not say that 2000 is not a leap year. Ah.. then that was the problem :) Here is the conversion rule that POSIX specifies: time_t == tm_sec + tm_min * 60 + tm_hour * 3600 + tm_yday * 86400 + (tm_year - 70) * 31536000 + ((tm_year - 69) / 4) * 86400 Kewl. Greetz, Peter. -- Peter van Dijk - student/sysadmin/ircoper/madly in love/pretending coder | | 'C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; | C++ makes it harder, but when you do it blows your whole leg off.' | Bjarne Stroustrup, Inventor of C++
[A]: qmail's timezone ( can't/shouldn't be changed )
Edward, Generally speaking, SMTP mailservers will timestamp the messages they receive with Greenwich Mean Time (roughly UTC -). This is to avoid confusion with local time zones which change worldwide, since a message often travels across several time zones. This is not faultless, because some machines don't agree on what time of day UTC is (i.e., they may be minutes or hours off), but it is a convention that mail is stamped "Received: " in UTC. If you reall had to have the time stamps /look/ local, you could always adjust the time on the machine so the UTC time looked local, but that really is cheating... :-) The MTA (pine, Netscape, Outlook, balsa, tkrat, Pegasus...) usually stamps the "Date: " header on the message in localtime, so this is probably what you'll need to refer to if you don't wish to muck about with UTC. Good luck, -Martin On 20 Nov, Edward Castillo-Jakosalem wrote: : : Hi to all! : I have two questions. : : 1. How can we change the timezone that qmail is using? I would like to : change it to our localtime. : : 2. Does anyone use qmail with digital unix? If so, is there any problem or : incompatibility observed? : : Thanks once again and more power! : : : : : Regards, : : Edward Castillo Jakosalem : -- Martin A. Brown --- SecurePipe Communications --- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
qmail's timezone
Hi to all! I have two questions. 1. How can we change the timezone that qmail is using? I would like to change it to our localtime. 2. Does anyone use qmail with digital unix? If so, is there any problem or incompatibility observed? Thanks once again and more power! Regards, Edward Castillo Jakosalem
